I like most of the points in these messages too, though I will point out I got quite a bit of help from the SuSE staff in setting up 6.3 on a Cyrix chipset computer. This was more help then I got from other people, such as Caldera. If they do have a pay ftp service, make it a good one. I don't know if Caldera has a good system or not, but it's stock price has fallen also. Most Linux users or people like me who will tinker will put up with bugs, (though the problems I've been having with Windows 95/98 makes me at the end of my patience with that MicroJunk), but business users will want something that is trouble-free, even if it isn't up too the minute. This is something all Linux Distributers have to worry about. ---Jim At 06:56 AM 2/8/01 -0800, you wrote:
That was very well written to say the least!
SuSE is very well known and highly respected by a lot of US geeks, however it is hard to get them to part cash....But that can be overcome, the biggest most overwhealming problem is that many suits just impulse buy and RH, even if it was broken. This makes for a very hostile enviroment, as they are not thinking in clear terms (when I went to choose a distro some time ago, I looked at each and every box and compared values, most did not come with nearly enough software).
Most of your points are very very valid, just wanted to add more on the US situation (I work for a Linux compnay, but not in software, so just wanted to shed some light beyond what people garner from slash).
Matt
On Thursday 08 February 2001 06:23 am, Purple Shirt wrote:
Tried to stay away from single comments in a thread and just sum up what I think......
1. Critisizing SuSE
Thanks for Cliff Sarginson being seemingly the first who actually critisized SuSE. I think we got to see this as a business situation as it is one. I am also highly critical of SuSE even though I love my distro.
2. Layoffs \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\>> Yes, it is sad for the people who lose their jobs. I am also sure they will find new jobs easily with their expertise and I think this is what they should focus on. You done a great job and now it is time to move on and find another great job you can succeed in. The economy goes through cycles and we are definitely in such across the board. This is healthy overall. Quit talking down businesses and their method of becoming profitable. You have to look at the overall picture and not concentrate on a few people who changed cubes.
3. Linux for Enterprises
I hear predictions and worries that SuSE cuts jobs, loses in service and support, forgets the little man. Once again SuSE is private and if I was the owner I wanted to make a profit. SuSE is not Debian. SuSE will not make a profit on selling boxes it seems. People either think its overpriced or lacks support. Large enterprises may be willing to pay for the support SuSE could deliver. I bought SuSE 5.3 with Applixware way back then. I was a newbie. I felt it was a worthy investment to get the whole package including manuals. I used it and by the time I was familiar with Linux we were at 6.2 I did buy the distro again. I learned that I got less value out of the manuals the second time around. I noticed I get my help and support from:
google search online sites mailing list
not a support call to the SuSE center and not SuSE's manuals. As you can see SuSE's offer of support is a wasted element to the small individual. The only support I receive from SuSE is when Ben or Michael answer a question in here. I am glad SuSE's business managers recognize this. Only support for large business users seem to be profitable.
4. Consolidation.
I don't understand the whining of all the people who complain about people being laid off. Yes there are lives attached but you have to realize that this is to become profitable and secure the rest of the jobs and provide growth. I'd rather see some consolidation now than a crisis later on. I still think things are healthy out there. We see layoffs left and right and the unemployment numbers are still at 4.2% This tells me that if people get laid off they are hired by the next company who needs workers. Overall a healthy trend; people work for the companies who need them.
5. Consolidation 2
How many Linux distros do we have out there? 50+??? I love choice and I love my Linux but I was hoping......no I was praying some company like IBM or so would buy out Corel. We got too many doing the same things. We need some mergers, consolidations, Linux failures to find ourselves on the right path again. Over the last 18 months Linux was hyped and talked to death that many have lost the trail of what the customers need and want. YaST2 may be nice but ever since it was created I understand my Linux system less because I don't see what is going on in the background. Was YaST2 created for the home user or enterprise? Maybe both. Does YaST2 make SuSE a better distro than before? Not to me. I am not against SuSE creating YaST2 but I realize these are high-risk ventures and they can break a company. While working on YaST2 they can't work on a different task which might be more important to their customers. I wish they put even more force behind developing a good firewall management tool. If I have to point out one weak part in my system it is my firewall setup. I don't trust it. Overall I hope we have some more shaking going on here and end up with the best of the bunch as result. Let the firings go on!!!
5. Michael said something about 65 emails back:
"In the US the business situation is different. We sell less boxes than anticipated and our ftp servers are busy as hell."
I lived in the US for almost 8 years now and I know the situation is different here than Europe. I couldn't believe SuSE hadn't realized this. I said for months and months on to create a new business strategy which suits the large business and high end Linux user. A strategy which also involves the hard core Linux users with the development of SuSE Linux in much the same way Debian does it.
I am sure you could do a search on google and find an email where I stated:
start a pay system ftp server start a beta program to avoid releseasing buggy distros
I explained above that I got less value out of SuSE the second time I bought the boxed set. The reason was I don't need 4 copies of every manual. I don't need and don't like having 50 SuSE CDs laying in my office and I like to use my high speed line to get my software. I know many people still rely on 56k and largely so in Europe but I told SuSE time and time again on the other side of the pond we got people with high speed data lines and we enjoy using them.
Now SuSE has the choice of trying to sell boxes and fail because I always wait for ftp access first. Or they can actually think about this and set up a pro-client service which allows ftp service for SuSE members only for 50 dollars a year to super-fast and reliable ftp servers around the US.
People asking for others to buy every release need to get real. I won't pay twice a year 70 dollars for a CD set. I though would enjoy a 24/7 super ftp service for 50 dollars a year.
Why should SuSE do this? It saves them the cost of creating boxed sets and shipping them to the US. It saves costs and it delivers to the people what the people want. Online Linux service.
Now SuSE can continue to bet on the fact that they might see me spend 140 dollars a year on a Professional set or they might take a gamble and secure a 50 dollar revenue for super ftp service. A 50 dollar ftp service is a subscription service and we all know subscription services are more profitable than one time sales.
6. The IPO
I own CORL and RHAT stock even though I don't even use their products. I lost thousands of dollars on their stocks. I didn't sell my shares. I realize their shares may go to zero. I was never fan of the idea of Linux development being business viable. It's a tough world out there and the Linux rise came at the wrong time when the Internet craze was happening.
What is the biggest problem with an IPO of a Linux company. The people who use Linux don't own the stocks. I see people stating left and right how they "buy every release". It means jack shit. One more time: It means jack shit.
As you read in the news releases SuSE-US is losing money on every box they sell in the States!!! (http://www.linuxgram.com/newsitem.phtml?sid=109&aid=11712)
Let me say it again: SuSE is losing money on every box they sell outside of Europe.
I hope everybody understands now that simply buying a software package may be meaningless.
Nobody ever talks about investing in a company of their choice. The companies cannot survive if the Linux users don't own the Linux stocks. That is why I didn't sell my shares. The only way to put a support level into a Linux stock these days is if nobody wants to sell. You need true Linux users to own the stocks. If those are not there you are doomed because every daytrader or institutional investor will dump your shares as soon as a dark cloud moves in. Hence a Linux company is more susceptible to volatility than an established GE.
If SuSE goes IPO I see bad times coming. I don't know if anybody wants to own this company. I lost lot of money on others and I don't feel good about buying another. I need to see profits first. SuSE is about to become another Caldera.
The problem is they might have to go IPO because all their private owners are needing to see some return on their investment. I don't blame them.
7. Buy German!
I am German and I left the country a few years back because the economic situation is miserable over there. I see SuSE as one of the few chances Germany has to become a major player in new technology. I see the German government fucking it up again. I love the free market just like the next but you cannot penetrate a market without some subsidies.
Germany's government is ruining SuSE. I know SuSE is popular but it is not government approved. Look at the US. California's utility companies are in bad shape. The government is going to have to bail them out in some way or another. Germany's only advancing industry is the software industry in which SuSE is an example. They should realize that if they place support in SuSE they might be able to:
1. eliminate the cost of Microsoft products to all Germans 2. place German companies in charge of the software development in Europe
Is it just me who sees that if you tout "Die Deutsche SuSE Linux ist die Software fuer Deutschland." might give the German people something to believe in. There is enough of the paper pushing jobs in Germany and the people need a company which creates a worthy product. SuSE is such a company and I am disgusted by how the German government is ruining this once in a life chance.
I am not asking for the government to officially feed money into private businesses. I am asking for the government to tout German goods as good goods. I dislike Bush just as the next but I enjoy the fact that he invites the major leaders in the US companies to a meeting. It shows support for the businesses who employ American jobs. I want the German government to make a statement that SuSE is their choice because they trust in their own people. How can a German person or SuSE feel good if their own government stabs them in the back because they spend millions of dollars on foreign software.
I am sorry I hadn't too many good words for the situation we are in but I sure as everybody else hope SuSE does survive and become profitable. I surely also believe the way to profit is to move away from creating clunky boxed software and eliminate the cost and invest in online software services/access. I can also handle it if they put more effort in enterprise support than home users because it is healthier to their business.
Good luck,
mk
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On Thu, Feb 08, 2001 at 09:05:31AM -0800, Jim Worrest wrote:
Most Linux users or people like me who will tinker will put up with bugs, (though the problems I've been having with Windows 95/98 makes me at the end of my patience with that MicroJunk), but business users will want something that is trouble-free, even if it isn't up too the minute. This is something all Linux Distributers have to worry about. ---Jim
*Sigh*. Trouble free. The System Administration of many classic UNIX systems is not trouble free. The writing of portable software for UNIX systems is not trouble free. Tha management of NT servers and Exchange is NOT trouble free. I think that Linux (Suse amongst others) could be demonstrably shown to be possibly *less* trouble free in many respects than say HP-UX 11, or fighting the bizarre ins and outs of Sun Solaris's license manager. Or fixing Exchange for the n'th time. Linux's possible problem is speed. It is slow. A side by side comparision of Linux 2.2.16 and FreeBSD 4.2. shows you just how fast a UNIX system can be. I haven't tried 2.4 yet, but I hear it is faster. I will be curious to see. (No hate mail about this statement please, I have received my quota already today ! Cliff
At 06:56 AM 2/8/01 -0800, you wrote:
That was very well written to say the least!
SuSE is very well known and highly respected by a lot of US geeks, however it is hard to get them to part cash....But that can be overcome, the biggest most overwhealming problem is that many suits just impulse buy and RH, even if it was broken. This makes for a very hostile enviroment, as they are not thinking in clear terms (when I went to choose a distro some time ago, I looked at each and every box and compared values, most did not come with nearly enough software).
Most of your points are very very valid, just wanted to add more on the US situation (I work for a Linux compnay, but not in software, so just wanted to shed some light beyond what people garner from slash).
Matt
On Thursday 08 February 2001 06:23 am, Purple Shirt wrote:
Tried to stay away from single comments in a thread and just sum up what I think......
1. Critisizing SuSE
Thanks for Cliff Sarginson being seemingly the first who actually critisized SuSE. I think we got to see this as a business situation as it is one. I am also highly critical of SuSE even though I love my distro.
2. Layoffs \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\>> Yes, it is sad for the people who lose their jobs. I am also sure they will find new jobs easily with their expertise and I think this is what they should focus on. You done a great job and now it is time to move on and find another great job you can succeed in. The economy goes through cycles and we are definitely in such across the board. This is healthy overall. Quit talking down businesses and their method of becoming profitable. You have to look at the overall picture and not concentrate on a few people who changed cubes.
3. Linux for Enterprises
I hear predictions and worries that SuSE cuts jobs, loses in service and support, forgets the little man. Once again SuSE is private and if I was the owner I wanted to make a profit. SuSE is not Debian. SuSE will not make a profit on selling boxes it seems. People either think its overpriced or lacks support. Large enterprises may be willing to pay for the support SuSE could deliver. I bought SuSE 5.3 with Applixware way back then. I was a newbie. I felt it was a worthy investment to get the whole package including manuals. I used it and by the time I was familiar with Linux we were at 6.2 I did buy the distro again. I learned that I got less value out of the manuals the second time around. I noticed I get my help and support from:
google search online sites mailing list
not a support call to the SuSE center and not SuSE's manuals. As you can see SuSE's offer of support is a wasted element to the small individual. The only support I receive from SuSE is when Ben or Michael answer a question in here. I am glad SuSE's business managers recognize this. Only support for large business users seem to be profitable.
4. Consolidation.
I don't understand the whining of all the people who complain about people being laid off. Yes there are lives attached but you have to realize that this is to become profitable and secure the rest of the jobs and provide growth. I'd rather see some consolidation now than a crisis later on. I still think things are healthy out there. We see layoffs left and right and the unemployment numbers are still at 4.2% This tells me that if people get laid off they are hired by the next company who needs workers. Overall a healthy trend; people work for the companies who need them.
5. Consolidation 2
How many Linux distros do we have out there? 50+??? I love choice and I love my Linux but I was hoping......no I was praying some company like IBM or so would buy out Corel. We got too many doing the same things. We need some mergers, consolidations, Linux failures to find ourselves on the right path again. Over the last 18 months Linux was hyped and talked to death that many have lost the trail of what the customers need and want. YaST2 may be nice but ever since it was created I understand my Linux system less because I don't see what is going on in the background. Was YaST2 created for the home user or enterprise? Maybe both. Does YaST2 make SuSE a better distro than before? Not to me. I am not against SuSE creating YaST2 but I realize these are high-risk ventures and they can break a company. While working on YaST2 they can't work on a different task which might be more important to their customers. I wish they put even more force behind developing a good firewall management tool. If I have to point out one weak part in my system it is my firewall setup. I don't trust it. Overall I hope we have some more shaking going on here and end up with the best of the bunch as result. Let the firings go on!!!
5. Michael said something about 65 emails back:
"In the US the business situation is different. We sell less boxes than anticipated and our ftp servers are busy as hell."
I lived in the US for almost 8 years now and I know the situation is different here than Europe. I couldn't believe SuSE hadn't realized this. I said for months and months on to create a new business strategy which suits the large business and high end Linux user. A strategy which also involves the hard core Linux users with the development of SuSE Linux in much the same way Debian does it.
I am sure you could do a search on google and find an email where I stated:
start a pay system ftp server start a beta program to avoid releseasing buggy distros
I explained above that I got less value out of SuSE the second time I bought the boxed set. The reason was I don't need 4 copies of every manual. I don't need and don't like having 50 SuSE CDs laying in my office and I like to use my high speed line to get my software. I know many people still rely on 56k and largely so in Europe but I told SuSE time and time again on the other side of the pond we got people with high speed data lines and we enjoy using them.
Now SuSE has the choice of trying to sell boxes and fail because I always wait for ftp access first. Or they can actually think about this and set up a pro-client service which allows ftp service for SuSE members only for 50 dollars a year to super-fast and reliable ftp servers around the US.
People asking for others to buy every release need to get real. I won't pay twice a year 70 dollars for a CD set. I though would enjoy a 24/7 super ftp service for 50 dollars a year.
Why should SuSE do this? It saves them the cost of creating boxed sets and shipping them to the US. It saves costs and it delivers to the people what the people want. Online Linux service.
Now SuSE can continue to bet on the fact that they might see me spend 140 dollars a year on a Professional set or they might take a gamble and secure a 50 dollar revenue for super ftp service. A 50 dollar ftp service is a subscription service and we all know subscription services are more profitable than one time sales.
6. The IPO
I own CORL and RHAT stock even though I don't even use their products. I lost thousands of dollars on their stocks. I didn't sell my shares. I realize their shares may go to zero. I was never fan of the idea of Linux development being business viable. It's a tough world out there and the Linux rise came at the wrong time when the Internet craze was happening.
What is the biggest problem with an IPO of a Linux company. The people who use Linux don't own the stocks. I see people stating left and right how they "buy every release". It means jack shit. One more time: It means jack shit.
As you read in the news releases SuSE-US is losing money on every box they sell in the States!!! (http://www.linuxgram.com/newsitem.phtml?sid=109&aid=11712)
Let me say it again: SuSE is losing money on every box they sell outside of Europe.
I hope everybody understands now that simply buying a software package may be meaningless.
Nobody ever talks about investing in a company of their choice. The companies cannot survive if the Linux users don't own the Linux stocks. That is why I didn't sell my shares. The only way to put a support level into a Linux stock these days is if nobody wants to sell. You need true Linux users to own the stocks. If those are not there you are doomed because every daytrader or institutional investor will dump your shares as soon as a dark cloud moves in. Hence a Linux company is more susceptible to volatility than an established GE.
If SuSE goes IPO I see bad times coming. I don't know if anybody wants to own this company. I lost lot of money on others and I don't feel good about buying another. I need to see profits first. SuSE is about to become another Caldera.
The problem is they might have to go IPO because all their private owners are needing to see some return on their investment. I don't blame them.
7. Buy German!
I am German and I left the country a few years back because the economic situation is miserable over there. I see SuSE as one of the few chances Germany has to become a major player in new technology. I see the German government fucking it up again. I love the free market just like the next but you cannot penetrate a market without some subsidies.
Germany's government is ruining SuSE. I know SuSE is popular but it is not government approved. Look at the US. California's utility companies are in bad shape. The government is going to have to bail them out in some way or another. Germany's only advancing industry is the software industry in which SuSE is an example. They should realize that if they place support in SuSE they might be able to:
1. eliminate the cost of Microsoft products to all Germans 2. place German companies in charge of the software development in Europe
Is it just me who sees that if you tout "Die Deutsche SuSE Linux ist die Software fuer Deutschland." might give the German people something to believe in. There is enough of the paper pushing jobs in Germany and the people need a company which creates a worthy product. SuSE is such a company and I am disgusted by how the German government is ruining this once in a life chance.
I am not asking for the government to officially feed money into private businesses. I am asking for the government to tout German goods as good goods. I dislike Bush just as the next but I enjoy the fact that he invites the major leaders in the US companies to a meeting. It shows support for the businesses who employ American jobs. I want the German government to make a statement that SuSE is their choice because they trust in their own people. How can a German person or SuSE feel good if their own government stabs them in the back because they spend millions of dollars on foreign software.
I am sorry I hadn't too many good words for the situation we are in but I sure as everybody else hope SuSE does survive and become profitable. I surely also believe the way to profit is to move away from creating clunky boxed software and eliminate the cost and invest in online software services/access. I can also handle it if they put more effort in enterprise support than home users because it is healthier to their business.
Good luck,
mk
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Cliff, I know for a fact that Linux is faster than Solaris (almost 4 times as fast). However, with Freebsd you are right....But...Someone wrote an atricle on how to get a Linux system up to speed. Unfortuantly I do not know the link, and did not read as much as I should...What I do remember is that he was basically rebuilding the Kernel and dropping out a lot of the extras that he did not need. Matt On Thu, 8 Feb 2001, Cliff Sarginson wrote:
On Thu, Feb 08, 2001 at 09:05:31AM -0800, Jim Worrest wrote:
Most Linux users or people like me who will tinker will put up with bugs, (though the problems I've been having with Windows 95/98 makes me at the end of my patience with that MicroJunk), but business users will want something that is trouble-free, even if it isn't up too the minute. This is something all Linux Distributers have to worry about. ---Jim
*Sigh*. Trouble free. The System Administration of many classic UNIX systems is not trouble free. The writing of portable software for UNIX systems is not trouble free. Tha management of NT servers and Exchange is NOT trouble free. I think that Linux (Suse amongst others) could be demonstrably shown to be possibly *less* trouble free in many respects than say HP-UX 11, or fighting the bizarre ins and outs of Sun Solaris's license manager. Or fixing Exchange for the n'th time.
Linux's possible problem is speed. It is slow. A side by side comparision of Linux 2.2.16 and FreeBSD 4.2. shows you just how fast a UNIX system can be.
I haven't tried 2.4 yet, but I hear it is faster. I will be curious to see.
(No hate mail about this statement please, I have received my quota already today !
Cliff
At 06:56 AM 2/8/01 -0800, you wrote:
That was very well written to say the least!
SuSE is very well known and highly respected by a lot of US geeks, however it is hard to get them to part cash....But that can be overcome, the biggest most overwhealming problem is that many suits just impulse buy and RH, even if it was broken. This makes for a very hostile enviroment, as they are not thinking in clear terms (when I went to choose a distro some time ago, I looked at each and every box and compared values, most did not come with nearly enough software).
Most of your points are very very valid, just wanted to add more on the US situation (I work for a Linux compnay, but not in software, so just wanted to shed some light beyond what people garner from slash).
Matt
On Thursday 08 February 2001 06:23 am, Purple Shirt wrote:
Tried to stay away from single comments in a thread and just sum up what I think......
1. Critisizing SuSE
Thanks for Cliff Sarginson being seemingly the first who actually critisized SuSE. I think we got to see this as a business situation as it is one. I am also highly critical of SuSE even though I love my distro.
2. Layoffs \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\>> Yes, it is sad for the people who lose their jobs. I am also sure they will find new jobs easily with their expertise and I think this is what they should focus on. You done a great job and now it is time to move on and find another great job you can succeed in. The economy goes through cycles and we are definitely in such across the board. This is healthy overall. Quit talking down businesses and their method of becoming profitable. You have to look at the overall picture and not concentrate on a few people who changed cubes.
3. Linux for Enterprises
I hear predictions and worries that SuSE cuts jobs, loses in service and support, forgets the little man. Once again SuSE is private and if I was the owner I wanted to make a profit. SuSE is not Debian. SuSE will not make a profit on selling boxes it seems. People either think its overpriced or lacks support. Large enterprises may be willing to pay for the support SuSE could deliver. I bought SuSE 5.3 with Applixware way back then. I was a newbie. I felt it was a worthy investment to get the whole package including manuals. I used it and by the time I was familiar with Linux we were at 6.2 I did buy the distro again. I learned that I got less value out of the manuals the second time around. I noticed I get my help and support from:
google search online sites mailing list
not a support call to the SuSE center and not SuSE's manuals. As you can see SuSE's offer of support is a wasted element to the small individual. The only support I receive from SuSE is when Ben or Michael answer a question in here. I am glad SuSE's business managers recognize this. Only support for large business users seem to be profitable.
4. Consolidation.
I don't understand the whining of all the people who complain about people being laid off. Yes there are lives attached but you have to realize that this is to become profitable and secure the rest of the jobs and provide growth. I'd rather see some consolidation now than a crisis later on. I still think things are healthy out there. We see layoffs left and right and the unemployment numbers are still at 4.2% This tells me that if people get laid off they are hired by the next company who needs workers. Overall a healthy trend; people work for the companies who need them.
5. Consolidation 2
How many Linux distros do we have out there? 50+??? I love choice and I love my Linux but I was hoping......no I was praying some company like IBM or so would buy out Corel. We got too many doing the same things. We need some mergers, consolidations, Linux failures to find ourselves on the right path again. Over the last 18 months Linux was hyped and talked to death that many have lost the trail of what the customers need and want. YaST2 may be nice but ever since it was created I understand my Linux system less because I don't see what is going on in the background. Was YaST2 created for the home user or enterprise? Maybe both. Does YaST2 make SuSE a better distro than before? Not to me. I am not against SuSE creating YaST2 but I realize these are high-risk ventures and they can break a company. While working on YaST2 they can't work on a different task which might be more important to their customers. I wish they put even more force behind developing a good firewall management tool. If I have to point out one weak part in my system it is my firewall setup. I don't trust it. Overall I hope we have some more shaking going on here and end up with the best of the bunch as result. Let the firings go on!!!
5. Michael said something about 65 emails back:
"In the US the business situation is different. We sell less boxes than anticipated and our ftp servers are busy as hell."
I lived in the US for almost 8 years now and I know the situation is different here than Europe. I couldn't believe SuSE hadn't realized this. I said for months and months on to create a new business strategy which suits the large business and high end Linux user. A strategy which also involves the hard core Linux users with the development of SuSE Linux in much the same way Debian does it.
I am sure you could do a search on google and find an email where I stated:
start a pay system ftp server start a beta program to avoid releseasing buggy distros
I explained above that I got less value out of SuSE the second time I bought the boxed set. The reason was I don't need 4 copies of every manual. I don't need and don't like having 50 SuSE CDs laying in my office and I like to use my high speed line to get my software. I know many people still rely on 56k and largely so in Europe but I told SuSE time and time again on the other side of the pond we got people with high speed data lines and we enjoy using them.
Now SuSE has the choice of trying to sell boxes and fail because I always wait for ftp access first. Or they can actually think about this and set up a pro-client service which allows ftp service for SuSE members only for 50 dollars a year to super-fast and reliable ftp servers around the US.
People asking for others to buy every release need to get real. I won't pay twice a year 70 dollars for a CD set. I though would enjoy a 24/7 super ftp service for 50 dollars a year.
Why should SuSE do this? It saves them the cost of creating boxed sets and shipping them to the US. It saves costs and it delivers to the people what the people want. Online Linux service.
Now SuSE can continue to bet on the fact that they might see me spend 140 dollars a year on a Professional set or they might take a gamble and secure a 50 dollar revenue for super ftp service. A 50 dollar ftp service is a subscription service and we all know subscription services are more profitable than one time sales.
6. The IPO
I own CORL and RHAT stock even though I don't even use their products. I lost thousands of dollars on their stocks. I didn't sell my shares. I realize their shares may go to zero. I was never fan of the idea of Linux development being business viable. It's a tough world out there and the Linux rise came at the wrong time when the Internet craze was happening.
What is the biggest problem with an IPO of a Linux company. The people who use Linux don't own the stocks. I see people stating left and right how they "buy every release". It means jack shit. One more time: It means jack shit.
As you read in the news releases SuSE-US is losing money on every box they sell in the States!!! (http://www.linuxgram.com/newsitem.phtml?sid=109&aid=11712)
Let me say it again: SuSE is losing money on every box they sell outside of Europe.
I hope everybody understands now that simply buying a software package may be meaningless.
Nobody ever talks about investing in a company of their choice. The companies cannot survive if the Linux users don't own the Linux stocks. That is why I didn't sell my shares. The only way to put a support level into a Linux stock these days is if nobody wants to sell. You need true Linux users to own the stocks. If those are not there you are doomed because every daytrader or institutional investor will dump your shares as soon as a dark cloud moves in. Hence a Linux company is more susceptible to volatility than an established GE.
If SuSE goes IPO I see bad times coming. I don't know if anybody wants to own this company. I lost lot of money on others and I don't feel good about buying another. I need to see profits first. SuSE is about to become another Caldera.
The problem is they might have to go IPO because all their private owners are needing to see some return on their investment. I don't blame them.
7. Buy German!
I am German and I left the country a few years back because the economic situation is miserable over there. I see SuSE as one of the few chances Germany has to become a major player in new technology. I see the German government fucking it up again. I love the free market just like the next but you cannot penetrate a market without some subsidies.
Germany's government is ruining SuSE. I know SuSE is popular but it is not government approved. Look at the US. California's utility companies are in bad shape. The government is going to have to bail them out in some way or another. Germany's only advancing industry is the software industry in which SuSE is an example. They should realize that if they place support in SuSE they might be able to:
1. eliminate the cost of Microsoft products to all Germans 2. place German companies in charge of the software development in Europe
Is it just me who sees that if you tout "Die Deutsche SuSE Linux ist die Software fuer Deutschland." might give the German people something to believe in. There is enough of the paper pushing jobs in Germany and the people need a company which creates a worthy product. SuSE is such a company and I am disgusted by how the German government is ruining this once in a life chance.
I am not asking for the government to officially feed money into private businesses. I am asking for the government to tout German goods as good goods. I dislike Bush just as the next but I enjoy the fact that he invites the major leaders in the US companies to a meeting. It shows support for the businesses who employ American jobs. I want the German government to make a statement that SuSE is their choice because they trust in their own people. How can a German person or SuSE feel good if their own government stabs them in the back because they spend millions of dollars on foreign software.
I am sorry I hadn't too many good words for the situation we are in but I sure as everybody else hope SuSE does survive and become profitable. I surely also believe the way to profit is to move away from creating clunky boxed software and eliminate the cost and invest in online software services/access. I can also handle it if they put more effort in enterprise support than home users because it is healthier to their business.
Good luck,
mk
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On Thu, Feb 08, 2001 at 03:01:01PM -0800, Matthew wrote:
Cliff,
I know for a fact that Linux is faster than Solaris (almost 4 times as fast). However, with Freebsd you are right....But...Someone wrote an atricle on how to get a Linux system up to speed. Unfortuantly I do not know the link, and did not read as much as I should...What I do remember is that he was basically rebuilding the Kernel and dropping out a lot of the extras that he did not need.
Oh I am sure Linux can be speeded up, and like I say, I hear that 2.4 is faster. I think it was planned to re-write the memory management in Linux so that it followed more the BSD model, I don't know if this was done. I am interested in your comment on the relative speed of Solaris to Linux. May I ask what kind of applications you saw this difference in ? I use lots of different Unixes for my work, Solaris being the main platform, with Linux up-coming along with HP..AIX..and anything that has an X in the name somewhere. The Linux system hasn't been stretched yet. Cliff
On the Solaris issue, its from people I have talked to at labs, one was at a Weather station, the other at some gov agency (and I was too scared to ask, just in case they gave me answer that landed me in a place full of rats and being fed only bred and water). If you get a chance to stress test your servers against all those others it would make an interesting post. Matt On Fri, 9 Feb 2001, Cliff Sarginson wrote:
On Thu, Feb 08, 2001 at 03:01:01PM -0800, Matthew wrote:
Cliff,
I know for a fact that Linux is faster than Solaris (almost 4 times as fast). However, with Freebsd you are right....But...Someone wrote an atricle on how to get a Linux system up to speed. Unfortuantly I do not know the link, and did not read as much as I should...What I do remember is that he was basically rebuilding the Kernel and dropping out a lot of the extras that he did not need.
Oh I am sure Linux can be speeded up, and like I say, I hear that 2.4 is faster. I think it was planned to re-write the memory management in Linux so that it followed more the BSD model, I don't know if this was done. I am interested in your comment on the relative speed of Solaris to Linux. May I ask what kind of applications you saw this difference in ? I use lots of different Unixes for my work, Solaris being the main platform, with Linux up-coming along with HP..AIX..and anything that has an X in the name somewhere. The Linux system hasn't been stretched yet.
Cliff
"Trouble Free"? At work I put up a SuSE 6.4 server, using ReiserFS, on Sept 17th of last year. Except for backups using Ghost it's been up 24/7 and hasn't crashed once. Two days ago I was asked to test Win2000 on my workstation. It took two installs, I've had two BSOD, one WE 'goaway' and one notorious Stealth Phantom Reboot, which occured while the PC was just setting there, running nothing. I had to remove to useful peripherals because Win2000 couldn't see them. And people call this "trouble free"... Amazing. On Thursday 08 February 2001 14:59, Cliff Sarginson wrote:
On Thu, Feb 08, 2001 at 09:05:31AM -0800, Jim Worrest wrote:
Most Linux users or people like me who will tinker will put up with bugs, (though the problems I've been having with Windows 95/98 makes me at the end of my patience with that MicroJunk), but business users will want something that is trouble-free, even if it isn't up too the minute. This is something all Linux Distributers have to worry about. ---Jim
*Sigh*. Trouble free. The System Administration of many classic UNIX systems is not trouble free. The writing of portable software for UNIX systems is not trouble free. Tha management of NT servers and Exchange is NOT trouble free. I think that Linux (Suse amongst others) could be demonstrably shown to be possibly *less* trouble free in many respects than say HP-UX 11, or fighting the bizarre ins and outs of Sun Solaris's license manager. Or fixing Exchange for the n'th time.
Linux's possible problem is speed. It is slow. A side by side comparision of Linux 2.2.16 and FreeBSD 4.2. shows you just how fast a UNIX system can be.
I haven't tried 2.4 yet, but I hear it is faster. I will be curious to see.
(No hate mail about this statement please, I have received my quota already today !
Cliff
At 06:56 AM 2/8/01 -0800, you wrote:
That was very well written to say the least!
SuSE is very well known and highly respected by a lot of US geeks, however it is hard to get them to part cash....But that can be overcome, the biggest most overwhealming problem is that many suits just impulse buy and RH, even if it was broken. This makes for a very hostile enviroment, as they are not thinking in clear terms (when I went to choose a distro some time ago, I looked at each and every box and compared values, most did not come with nearly enough software).
Most of your points are very very valid, just wanted to add more on the US situation (I work for a Linux compnay, but not in software, so just wanted to shed some light beyond what people garner from slash).
Matt
On Thursday 08 February 2001 06:23 am, Purple Shirt wrote:
Tried to stay away from single comments in a thread and just sum up what I think......
1. Critisizing SuSE
Thanks for Cliff Sarginson being seemingly the first who actually critisized SuSE. I think we got to see this as a business situation as it is one. I am also highly critical of SuSE even though I love my distro.
2. Layoffs
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\>
Yes, it is sad for the people who lose their jobs. I am also sure they will find new jobs easily with their expertise and I think this is what they should focus on. You done a great job and now it is time to move on and find another great job you can succeed in. The economy goes through cycles and we are definitely in such across the board. This is healthy overall. Quit talking down businesses and their method of becoming profitable. You have to look at the overall picture and not concentrate on a few people who changed cubes.
3. Linux for Enterprises
I hear predictions and worries that SuSE cuts jobs, loses in service and support, forgets the little man. Once again SuSE is private and if I was the owner I wanted to make a profit. SuSE is not Debian. SuSE will not make a profit on selling boxes it seems. People either think its overpriced or lacks support. Large enterprises may be willing to pay for the support SuSE could deliver. I bought SuSE 5.3 with Applixware way back then. I was a newbie. I felt it was a worthy investment to get the whole package including manuals. I used it and by the time I was familiar with Linux we were at 6.2 I did buy the distro again. I learned that I got less value out of the manuals the second time around. I noticed I get my help and support from:
google search online sites mailing list
not a support call to the SuSE center and not SuSE's manuals. As you can see SuSE's offer of support is a wasted element to the small individual. The only support I receive from SuSE is when Ben or Michael answer a question in here. I am glad SuSE's business managers recognize this. Only support for large business users seem to be profitable.
4. Consolidation.
I don't understand the whining of all the people who complain about people being laid off. Yes there are lives attached but you have to realize that this is to become profitable and secure the rest of the jobs and provide growth. I'd rather see some consolidation now than a crisis later on. I still think things are healthy out there. We see layoffs left and right and the unemployment numbers are still at 4.2% This tells me that if people get laid off they are hired by the next company who needs workers. Overall a healthy trend; people work for the companies who need them.
5. Consolidation 2
How many Linux distros do we have out there? 50+??? I love choice and I love my Linux but I was hoping......no I was praying some company like IBM or so would buy out Corel. We got too many doing the same things. We need some mergers, consolidations, Linux failures to find ourselves on the right path again. Over the last 18 months Linux was hyped and talked to death that many have lost the trail of what the customers need and want. YaST2 may be nice but ever since it was created I understand my Linux system less because I don't see what is going on in the background. Was YaST2 created for the home user or enterprise? Maybe both. Does YaST2 make SuSE a better distro than before? Not to me. I am not against SuSE creating YaST2 but I realize these are high-risk ventures and they can break a company. While working on YaST2 they can't work on a different task which might be more important to their customers. I wish they put even more force behind developing a good firewall management tool. If I have to point out one weak part in my system it is my firewall setup. I don't trust it. Overall I hope we have some more shaking going on here and end up with the best of the bunch as result. Let the firings go on!!!
5. Michael said something about 65 emails back:
"In the US the business situation is different. We sell less boxes than anticipated and our ftp servers are busy as hell."
I lived in the US for almost 8 years now and I know the situation is different here than Europe. I couldn't believe SuSE hadn't realized this. I said for months and months on to create a new business strategy which suits the large business and high end Linux user. A strategy which also involves the hard core Linux users with the development of SuSE Linux in much the same way Debian does it.
I am sure you could do a search on google and find an email where I stated:
start a pay system ftp server start a beta program to avoid releseasing buggy distros
I explained above that I got less value out of SuSE the second time I bought the boxed set. The reason was I don't need 4 copies of every manual. I don't need and don't like having 50 SuSE CDs laying in my office and I like to use my high speed line to get my software. I know many people still rely on 56k and largely so in Europe but I told SuSE time and time again on the other side of the pond we got people with high speed data lines and we enjoy using them.
Now SuSE has the choice of trying to sell boxes and fail because I always wait for ftp access first. Or they can actually think about this and set up a pro-client service which allows ftp service for SuSE members only for 50 dollars a year to super-fast and reliable ftp servers around the US.
People asking for others to buy every release need to get real. I won't pay twice a year 70 dollars for a CD set. I though would enjoy a 24/7 super ftp service for 50 dollars a year.
Why should SuSE do this? It saves them the cost of creating boxed sets and shipping them to the US. It saves costs and it delivers to the people what the people want. Online Linux service.
Now SuSE can continue to bet on the fact that they might see me spend 140 dollars a year on a Professional set or they might take a gamble and secure a 50 dollar revenue for super ftp service. A 50 dollar ftp service is a subscription service and we all know subscription services are more profitable than one time sales.
6. The IPO
I own CORL and RHAT stock even though I don't even use their products. I lost thousands of dollars on their stocks. I didn't sell my shares. I realize their shares may go to zero. I was never fan of the idea of Linux development being business viable. It's a tough world out there and the Linux rise came at the wrong time when the Internet craze was happening.
What is the biggest problem with an IPO of a Linux company. The people who use Linux don't own the stocks. I see people stating left and right how they "buy every release". It means jack shit. One more time: It means jack shit.
As you read in the news releases SuSE-US is losing money on every box they sell in the States!!! (http://www.linuxgram.com/newsitem.phtml?sid=109&aid=11712)
Let me say it again: SuSE is losing money on every box they sell outside of Europe.
I hope everybody understands now that simply buying a software package may be meaningless.
Nobody ever talks about investing in a company of their choice. The companies cannot survive if the Linux users don't own the Linux stocks. That is why I didn't sell my shares. The only way to put a support level into a Linux stock these days is if nobody wants to sell. You need true Linux users to own the stocks. If those are not there you are doomed because every daytrader or institutional investor will dump your shares as soon as a dark cloud moves in. Hence a Linux company is more susceptible to volatility than an established GE.
If SuSE goes IPO I see bad times coming. I don't know if anybody wants to own this company. I lost lot of money on others and I don't feel good about buying another. I need to see profits first. SuSE is about to become another Caldera.
The problem is they might have to go IPO because all their private owners are needing to see some return on their investment. I don't blame them.
7. Buy German!
I am German and I left the country a few years back because the economic situation is miserable over there. I see SuSE as one of the few chances Germany has to become a major player in new technology. I see the German government fucking it up again. I love the free market just like the next but you cannot penetrate a market without some subsidies.
Germany's government is ruining SuSE. I know SuSE is popular but it is not government approved. Look at the US. California's utility companies are in bad shape. The government is going to have to bail them out in some way or another. Germany's only advancing industry is the software industry in which SuSE is an example. They should realize that if they place support in SuSE they might be able to:
1. eliminate the cost of Microsoft products to all Germans 2. place German companies in charge of the software development in Europe
Is it just me who sees that if you tout "Die Deutsche SuSE Linux ist die Software fuer Deutschland." might give the German people something to believe in. There is enough of the paper pushing jobs in Germany and the people need a company which creates a worthy product. SuSE is such a company and I am disgusted by how the German government is ruining this once in a life chance.
I am not asking for the government to officially feed money into private businesses. I am asking for the government to tout German goods as good goods. I dislike Bush just as the next but I enjoy the fact that he invites the major leaders in the US companies to a meeting. It shows support for the businesses who employ American jobs. I want the German government to make a statement that SuSE is their choice because they trust in their own people. How can a German person or SuSE feel good if their own government stabs them in the back because they spend millions of dollars on foreign software.
I am sorry I hadn't too many good words for the situation we are in but I sure as everybody else hope SuSE does survive and become profitable. I surely also believe the way to profit is to move away from creating clunky boxed software and eliminate the cost and invest in online software services/access. I can also handle it if they put more effort in enterprise support than home users because it is healthier to their business.
Good luck,
mk
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participants (4)
-
Cliff Sarginson -
Jerry Kreps -
Jim Worrest -
Matthew