[opensuse] Will there be a LTS version of OpenSuse?
Saying LTS I mean Long Term Support as ubuntu people do. I know there's SEL but I'm asking for the open Suse. I'm configuring a new webserver right now. And I'm seriosly thinking about waiting for the next ubuntu LTS. I always ran the machines longer than two years. Often the contract duration for the dedicated hardware is two years yet. And although upgrading worked so far for me there were always small changes which you couldn't see in advance, like postfix complaining about file permissions. I really enjoy OpenSuse but a life cycle of two years is - except for desktops - to short. Not every release has to be supported long term but what about every third? Couldn't the life cycle be 4.5 years? Am I the only one thinking like this? Johannes -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
2008/1/12, Johannes Nohl <johannes.nohl@gmail.com>:
Saying LTS I mean Long Term Support as ubuntu people do.
I know there's SEL but I'm asking for the open Suse. I'm configuring a new webserver right now. And I'm seriosly thinking about waiting for the next ubuntu LTS. I always ran the machines longer than two years. Often the contract duration for the dedicated hardware is two years yet. And although upgrading worked so far for me there were always small changes which you couldn't see in advance, like postfix complaining about file permissions.
I really enjoy OpenSuse but a life cycle of two years is - except for desktops - to short. Not every release has to be supported long term but what about every third? Couldn't the life cycle be 4.5 years?
Am I the only one thinking like this?
Johannes -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
That's the reason to exist for SLES, sorry Regards, Ciro -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Saturday 2008-01-12 at 22:17 +0100, Johannes Nohl wrote:
I really enjoy OpenSuse but a life cycle of two years is - except for desktops - to short. Not every release has to be supported long term but what about every third? Couldn't the life cycle be 4.5 years?
Maintaining (backporting) apps for such a long time is costly, and that is why SLES is expensive, and not so feature rich. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHiURItTMYHG2NR9URAgJWAJ40bhyxBtYN8FbMv4VEz/if8rpj+ACgjjsy WoY7bO3ICpbhQPhcbzX9rIs= =Bv6r -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. a écrit :
Maintaining (backporting) apps for such a long time is costly, and that is why SLES is expensive, and not so feature rich.
there could be a medium point. I would be ready to pay a small fee ($10/year?) for security patches for kernel, apache, postfix and some very limited server apps. Could even pay until $60 for one time (buy time) such support for other apps, there is no need of long time support jdd -- http://www.dodin.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Jan 12, 2008 9:19 PM, jdd <jdd@dodin.org> wrote:
Carlos E. R. a écrit :
Maintaining (backporting) apps for such a long time is costly, and that is why SLES is expensive, and not so feature rich.
there could be a medium point. I would be ready to pay a small fee ($10/year?) for security patches for kernel, apache, postfix and some
Would you like french fries with that free lunch? Marcio Ferreira --- Druid -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
jdd escribió:
there could be a medium point. I would be ready to pay a small fee ($10/year?) for security patches for kernel, apache, postfix and some very limited server apps.
I assume you are joking right ? so you really think a fee of $10 will be enough ? with $10 you dont even pay one man's hour !! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Saturday 2008-01-12 at 21:34 -0300, Cristian Rodriguez wrote:
jdd escribió:
there could be a medium point. I would be ready to pay a small fee ($10/year?) for security patches for kernel, apache, postfix and some very limited server apps.
I assume you are joking right ? so you really think a fee of $10 will be enough ? with $10 you dont even pay one man's hour !!
Not if you sell a few thousand items :-p - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHiWTBtTMYHG2NR9URAv9ZAJ9kjCOAtMZEm+NI4ocJvdTsNBzeBQCeOVoh DN+HDCDtu09MB41mTNa/baI= =U/Qb -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On 13/01/2008, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
I assume you are joking right ? so you really think a fee of $10 will be enough ? with $10 you dont even pay one man's hour !!
Not if you sell a few thousand items :-p
Even at 10,000 units that's barely enough for one developer. -- Benjamin Weber -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Sunday 2008-01-13 at 01:21 -0000, Benji Weber wrote:
On 13/01/2008, Carlos E. R. <> wrote:
I assume you are joking right ? so you really think a fee of $10 will be enough ? with $10 you dont even pay one man's hour !!
Not if you sell a few thousand items :-p
Even at 10,000 units that's barely enough for one developer.
Why? That's $10^5... that's... that's a high salary for 33 years! I don't understand. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHifHctTMYHG2NR9URAmDxAKCU/PvRzjpJ5nWuPN91BjwltZgaywCdGPdu tgku/0LnbBp8Y+lgU3SDXp4= =b2r6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Am Sonntag, 13. Januar 2008 12:11:24 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
The Sunday 2008-01-13 at 01:21 -0000, Benji Weber wrote:
On 13/01/2008, Carlos E. R. <> wrote:
I assume you are joking right ? so you really think a fee of $10 will be enough ? with $10 you dont even pay one man's hour !!
Not if you sell a few thousand items :-p
Even at 10,000 units that's barely enough for one developer.
Why? That's $10^5... that's... that's a high salary for 33 years! I don't understand.
At least for one developer, that's true - but an LTS version, needs more than one developer, it needs a whole developer team and even then it has do sell 10'000 units, which frankly I doubt it will.. :/ Greetings Michael
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Sunday 2008-01-13 at 12:51 +0100, Michael Skiba wrote:
Why? That's $10^5... that's... that's a high salary for 33 years! I don't understand.
At least for one developer, that's true - but an LTS version, needs more than one developer, it needs a whole developer team and even then it has do sell 10'000 units, which frankly I doubt it will.. :/
Yes, that's true. However, I would be enchanted if some old versions of the distro were still maintained somewhat - the 7.3 one, for instance: it is very good on old hardware. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHig0itTMYHG2NR9URAhQEAJ0U/7vxHsfGPieUF8fwhFKsf44iZQCeII3W 9P3thd/RhFEIE1UY3/21iOc= =3cfl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. schreef::
The Sunday 2008-01-13 at 12:51 +0100, Michael Skiba wrote:
Why? That's $10^5... that's... that's a high salary for 33 years! I don't understand.
At least for one developer, that's true - but an LTS version, needs more than one developer, it needs a whole developer team and even then it has do sell 10'000 units, which frankly I doubt it will.. :/
Yes, that's true.
However, I would be enchanted if some old versions of the distro were still maintained somewhat - the 7.3 one, for instance: it is very good on old hardware.
-- Cheers, Carlos E. R.
Hi folks, What a discussion !!! I find the strongest point of OpenSuse that you are on the bleeding edge of the software development. I can always experience the newest software paths leading to future. The other side of this medal is that there are much changes and parts that are thrown away. This automaticly gives a short support time (there happens too much in a few years). If you want a long support time then you have to choose for a distribution what thakes and keeps only the best, that means a changemanagementfilosofie based on the long term ( a bit conservative). And thats another choice than OpenSuse. Hans. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 13 January 2008 14:07, Carlos E. R. wrote:
However, I would be enchanted if some old versions of the distro were still maintained somewhat - the 7.3 one, for instance: it is very good on old hardware.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suse_linux 7.3: 13 October 2001 Did you ever try to maintain any piece of software this old, with so many newer versions of any of its components having been released in the meantime? CU -- Stefan Hundhammer <sh@suse.de> Penguin by conviction. YaST2 Development SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Nürnberg, Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Tuesday 2008-01-15 at 13:34 +0100, Stefan Hundhammer wrote:
On Sunday 13 January 2008 14:07, Carlos E. R. wrote:
However, I would be enchanted if some old versions of the distro were still maintained somewhat - the 7.3 one, for instance: it is very good on old hardware.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suse_linux
7.3: 13 October 2001
I know.
Did you ever try to maintain any piece of software this old, with so many newer versions of any of its components having been released in the meantime?
I didn't say that it would be easy (nor did I say fully maintained). I said that I would be enchanted. You take things too seriously. :-P (curiously, new "embedded" machines I bought use kernel 2.4, not 2.6) - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHjLuZtTMYHG2NR9URApYVAJ4hmgzCvCi528tV6uLVwro42sD2CACglRoO S7DtCwuLjNfbsp0GX+DvNaw= =52o0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 13 January 2008 12:11, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Even at 10,000 units that's barely enough for one developer.
Why? That's $10^5... that's... that's a high salary for 33 years!
Huh? With the current Euro / US$ exchange rate (€1 = $1.48) , $100k are about €67.6k. Depending on exactly what kind of cost you include in the calculation (office space, general organizational management), this will pay for roughly one man-year in Germany. 33 years? What kind of developer would you like to hire for that kind of money?
I don't understand.
Do some math, and you just might. CU -- Stefan Hundhammer <sh@suse.de> Penguin by conviction. YaST2 Development SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Nürnberg, Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Content-ID: <alpine.LSU.1.00.0801151443500.29430@nimrodel.valinor> The Tuesday 2008-01-15 at 13:30 +0100, Stefan Hundhammer wrote:
On Sunday 13 January 2008 12:11, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Even at 10,000 units that's barely enough for one developer.
Why? That's $10^5... that's... that's a high salary for 33 years!
Huh?
With the current Euro / US$ exchange rate (€1 = $1.48) , $100k are about €67.6k.
Depending on exactly what kind of cost you include in the calculation (office space, general organizational management), this will pay for roughly one man-year in Germany.
33 years? What kind of developer would you like to hire for that kind of money?
With a salary of 30000€ (I used € for my calculations, or $=€) per year, which is a high salary here for a supervisor in my country, that makes 10^4 * 10€ / 30000€ = Oops, 3.3 I forgot that in the calculator parlance 10^5 is 1E5, not 10E5, sorry. I must have been half sleep at the moment O:-) In $, the salary would be $20E3, making for 4.9 years. Or, if I assume a salary of $30E3, that would be 3.3 years. If you say that's too low a salary, mine as developer was 8000€/y not too long ago. Even now, many people here don't reach 1000€/month. And one developer has no organization at all, and works at home or in a corner :-p - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHjL7stTMYHG2NR9URAjsDAKCYZ9H8wY6azCANr57d5+AY1N91TwCgiCKz 1MigTU3eEVgR9Br6QxpbdTk= =8ioG -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Tue, 15 Jan 2008 15:10:51 +0100 (CET), Carlos E. R. wrote:
With a salary of 30000€ (I used € for my calculations, or $=€) per year, which is a high salary here for a supervisor in my country, that makes
€30000/year would barely get you a junior programmer here (if at all). If he's got a CS degree, you'd have to raise that significantly. And $ is € is ~ $ 1.5 Philipp -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Philipp Thomas wrote:
On Tue, 15 Jan 2008 15:10:51 +0100 (CET), Carlos E. R. wrote:
With a salary of 30000€ (I used € for my calculations, or $=€) per year, which is a high salary here for a supervisor in my country, that makes
€30000/year would barely get you a junior programmer here (if at all). If he's got a CS degree, you'd have to raise that significantly. And $ is € is ~ $ 1.5
Philipp
Hell, If I could do programming at home in my jammies for $30,000 a year I would jump on it. I worked my butt off for a lot less than that. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Thursday 17 January 2008 00:36:17 Billie Walsh wrote:
Philipp Thomas wrote:
On Tue, 15 Jan 2008 15:10:51 +0100 (CET), Carlos E. R. wrote:
With a salary of 30000€ (I used € for my calculations, or $=€) per year, which is a high salary here for a supervisor in my country, that makes
€30000/year would barely get you a junior programmer here (if at all). If he's got a CS degree, you'd have to raise that significantly. And $ is € is ~ $ 1.5
Philipp
Hell, If I could do programming at home in my jammies for $30,000 a year I would jump on it. I worked my butt off for a lot less than that.
Meh - supply and demand. Market economics. Call it what you will. The key phrase you use is, 'If I could'. Philipp is correct. You'd struggle to get a junior programmer for $20K pa and you wouldn't hold onto them on that wage for long. I suppose the logical conclusion would be to outsource to India or another outsourcing location. I think that just about sums up (pun intended) the futility of an openSUSE LTS edition. Jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Thursday 2008-01-17 at 14:27 +0800, Jonathan Ervine wrote:
On Thursday 17 January 2008 00:36:17 Billie Walsh wrote:
Philipp Thomas wrote:
€30000/year would barely get you a junior programmer here (if at all). If he's got a CS degree, you'd have to raise that significantly. And $ is € is ~ $ 1.5
Hell, If I could do programming at home in my jammies for $30,000 a year I would jump on it. I worked my butt off for a lot less than that.
Meh - supply and demand. Market economics. Call it what you will. The key phrase you use is, 'If I could'. Philipp is correct. You'd struggle to get a junior programmer for $20K pa and you wouldn't hold onto them on that wage for long. I suppose the logical conclusion would be to outsource to India or another outsourcing location.
Actually, Novell did that. Last year they fired something like 200 people in the USA and I guess they hired some in the "far east".
I think that just about sums up (pun intended) the futility of an openSUSE LTS edition.
Dunno... I just hope they don't outsource it, I like the chaps that are at SuSE right now. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHjy4YtTMYHG2NR9URAhCtAKCBpE9nFOj8pAzRHEdd1AILb0XAqACfa9Lz qOwQyINnWTAeEVlQ0amPMBg= =T/6G -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
The discussion seemed to be ended but the maintance release (!) of a LTS'ed Linux (http://www.ubuntu.com/news/lts-6.06.2) reminds me of this thread. I read that many responses to this release that I think the number of users must be extremly high. Most pointed out that they are not interested in cutting edge software but in stability. Don't you think a long time support release of opensuse will bring (more) people (back) to this great distribution?! Johannes -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Hi Johannes, Johannes Nohl wrote:
The discussion seemed to be ended but the maintance release (!) of a LTS'ed Linux (http://www.ubuntu.com/news/lts-6.06.2) reminds me of this thread. I read that many responses to this release that I think the number of users must be extremly high. Most pointed out that they are not interested in cutting edge software but in stability. Don't you think a long time support release of opensuse will bring (more) people (back) to this great distribution?!
Johannes
I'm afraid Novell's counting on SLES and SLED for that matter. Though working for a company dealing with the Enterprise stuff I realy couldn't agree more with you! Nice Weekend to all, Ortwin -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Johannes Nohl wrote: | The discussion seemed to be ended but the maintance release (!) of a | LTS'ed Linux (http://www.ubuntu.com/news/lts-6.06.2) reminds me of | this thread. I read that many responses to this release that I think | the number of users must be extremly high. Most pointed out that they | are not interested in cutting edge software but in stability. Don't | you think a long time support release of opensuse will bring (more) | people (back) to this great distribution?! | | Johannes That would be the equivalent of asking Red hat to make Fedora LTS, and Novell to make opensuse LTS. They both use members from the community in addition to employees to develop packages, and they choose which packages they wish to include in their LTS distros, Red Hat and SLED. They are not going to support a distro that is not ready for enterprise use. This is not in their business model. But, it does open up support for 3rd parties if they wish to support the community distros in the enterprise. - -- Steve Reilly http://reillyblog.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHm+bB1L48K811Km0RAmyHAKCOLFlZsQnZaMJVjr3UUz0tseLu+ACfW5HD XP7jobM1+VvQSKIYE5gpSeg= =qijG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 steve schrieb: | That would be the equivalent of asking Red hat to make Fedora LTS, To late for that. There is already a stable re-branded RHEL called Centos. I don't think that Red Hat is that lucky about it, even if they don't admit it. - -- All the best, Peter J. N. aedon DESIGNS http://www.hochzeitsbuch.info http://www.hochzeitsbuch.selfip.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHnTvYh8q3OtgoGAwRAplZAJ40N9Qo1ZSyoPUHxDL3SM18CwkKNwCggVLf 57p0wJXDcxSu+Hm5NKy3GSI= =2Dwl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 peter wrote: | steve schrieb: | | | That would be the equivalent of asking Red hat to make Fedora LTS, | | To late for that. There is already a stable re-branded RHEL called | Centos. I don't think that Red Hat is that lucky about it, even if they | don't admit it. | I know, anyway we look at it, we are the winners. I just dont see novell changing their business model by supporting a community distro when they already are doing it with sled. - -- Steve Reilly http://reillyblog.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHm+2m1L48K811Km0RAqP6AJ9vyqviVIwgTxS8QBivZEd7Uk4fbwCgjdDh qyDa4yLFv16qv2aswD/UPsQ= =e7Vy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 steve schrieb: | I know, anyway we look at it, we are the winners. I just dont see | novell changing their business model by supporting a community distro | when they already are doing it with sled. I'm afraid you're right on that, but I hope that they at least appreciate the feedback they got from us. It could sometimes be more worth than an advice of a Goldman Sachs investment banker... ;) - -- All the best, Peter J. N. aedon DESIGNS http://www.hochzeitsbuch.info http://www.hochzeitsbuch.selfip.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHnUJph8q3OtgoGAwRAtVKAJ91cqIs51eEEioUZ39OxNaJ9rYi6gCfa5Q4 lpf4MUtEXZ52C7rIfgfewOI= =sHap -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
I'm afraid you're right on that, but I hope that they at least appreciate the feedback they got from us. It could sometimes be more worth than an advice of a Goldman Sachs investment banker... ;)
Good point. Finnally you could ask yourself how long there will be a community version of suse at all. Whether they don't listen to their users demands or there won't be users because they went away to another distro. I ask again: If I'm forced to replace opensuse on some projects to a distribution with a longer life cycle why should I keep opensuse on my desktop? I'm on the move, probably. I'll see what will happen in april 2008... Johannes -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Johannes Nohl wrote:
I'm afraid you're right on that, but I hope that they at least appreciate the feedback they got from us. It could sometimes be more worth than an advice of a Goldman Sachs investment banker... ;)
Good point. Finnally you could ask yourself how long there will be a community version of suse at all. Whether they don't listen to their users demands or there won't be users because they went away to another distro.
When you're not paying a single Eur for the software, your "demands" are not all that interesting to a company which has to make a payroll every week. Get this through your head... opensuse is *NOT* a charity project for Johannes Nohl and his Linux buddies -- it's a test-bed for developing SLED and SLES distributions, which happens to serve a PR purpose in a loss-leader sort of way. And no, I have *no* association with SuSE, other than as a user (and before they discontinued retail distribution, a customer).
I ask again: If I'm forced to replace opensuse on some projects to a distribution with a longer life cycle why should I keep opensuse on my desktop?
Do what you have to do. But remember, nobody is going to just give away long life cycle support, while also maintaining a hi release rate -- maintaining 5 to 10 releases simultaneously is *not* a trivial task -- it requires a significant number of man-hours.
I'm on the move, probably. I'll see what will happen in april 2008...
You get high quality stuff for free, and then complain, because the life-cycle is "only" 18 months. Do you realize how much of a complete ingrate you make yourself appear to be? Why don't you lobby for a return of OpenSuse Professional, which was not nearly as expensive as SLED OR SLES, but sales of such could finance significant longer-term support. If you want something which COSTS MONEY, then be prepared to pay for it, and quite *WHINING* that it's not being given to you IN ADDITION to a very convenient software distribution which has a value in many thousands of euros. The horse is dead; no matter how many times you kick it, it isn't going to get up and run a race.
Johannes
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On Sunday 27 January 2008 12:58, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
Johannes Nohl wrote:
I'm afraid you're right on that, but I hope that they at least appreciate the feedback they got from us. It could sometimes be more worth than an advice of a Goldman Sachs investment banker... ;)
Good point. Finnally you could ask yourself how long there will be a community version of suse at all. Whether they don't listen to their users demands or there won't be users because they went away to another distro.
When you're not paying a single Eur for the software, your "demands" are not all that interesting to a company which has to make a payroll every week.
Get this through your head... opensuse is *NOT* a charity project for Johannes Nohl and his Linux buddies -- it's a test-bed for developing SLED and SLES distributions, which happens to serve a PR purpose in a loss-leader sort of way.
And no, I have *no* association with SuSE, other than as a user (and before they discontinued retail distribution, a customer).
I ask again: If I'm forced to replace opensuse on some projects to a distribution with a longer life cycle why should I keep opensuse on my desktop?
Do what you have to do. But remember, nobody is going to just give away long life cycle support, while also maintaining a hi release rate -- maintaining 5 to 10 releases simultaneously is *not* a trivial task -- it requires a significant number of man-hours.
I'm on the move, probably. I'll see what will happen in april 2008...
You get high quality stuff for free, and then complain, because the life-cycle is "only" 18 months.
Do you realize how much of a complete ingrate you make yourself appear to be?
Why don't you lobby for a return of OpenSuse Professional, which was not nearly as expensive as SLED OR SLES, but sales of such could finance significant longer-term support.
If you want something which COSTS MONEY, then be prepared to pay for it, and quite *WHINING* that it's not being given to you IN ADDITION to a very convenient software distribution which has a value in many thousands of euros.
The horse is dead; no matter how many times you kick it, it isn't going to get up and run a race.
Johannes
I disagree with your rant. I would like to see the return of SuSE Pro, and I don't mind paying $60 or so for it, but I do mind paying $200 or so for SLES or SLED (I don't understand the difference) and I want the manuals. You admit that SuSE Pro paid for itself, it came with the manuals, and you could buy it at a decent bookstore. And it came with some non-open-source things that were useful. What was wrong with that system? Why must we bow down to Microsoft? It seems that they now own SuSE, and are determined to make it less and less attractive. If I didn't have a whole batch of stored files on this stable, older SuSE distro, I would try something else in a minute. And I may, anyway. --doug -- Blessed are the peacemakers ... for they shall be shot at from both sides. --A.M. Greeley -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
* Doug McGarrett <dmcgarrett@optonline.net> [02-02-08 20:05]: ...
Why must we bow down to Microsoft?
Please site *specific* examples that excite you to this statement?
It seems that they now own SuSE, and are determined to make it less and less attractive.
and this. If you cannot, you are only spreading fud and acting in the interests of m$ as a shill!
If I didn't have a whole batch of stored files on this stable, older SuSE distro, I would try something else in a minute. And I may, anyway.
Don't let the door....... Now.. I/we do not *want* you to leave, but you are welcome to do as you wish. BUT your statements, threats and innuendos are false, baseless and without thought from a sane reasonable person. Do better or backup your threats. -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
The horse is dead; no matter how many times you kick it, it isn't going to get up and run a race.
Johannes
I disagree with your rant. I would like to see the return of SuSE Pro, and I don't mind paying $60 or so for it, but I do mind paying $200 or so for SLES or SLED (I don't understand the difference) and I want the manuals.
i) You are not the target audience for the enterprise products ii) If you dont understand the difference adn you make statements, you are probably giving yourself the chance of saying blatantly wrong things iii) If you want the manuals badly, you can always print them. If your life is really depending on that, I mean.
You admit that SuSE Pro paid for itself, it came with the manuals, and you could buy it at a decent bookstore. And it came with some non-open-source things that were useful. What was wrong with that system? Why must we bow down to Microsoft? It seems that they now own SuSE, and are determined
What was wrong with the system: it wasnt making enough money to keep the devel going You say that there were useful non-oss software and then you say about bowing to microsoft? You are not playing well the stereotype of freedom fighter robin-hood master gnu I-am-against-capitalist-mcdonalds-and-microsoft. To do it correctly you should have criticized the fact it came with non-oss software. Try again, mr che guevara, leader of the revolution. But next time you show yourself so passionate mega master know-it-all, try to discover what was happening by the time Novell bought SUSE. "Why must we bow down to microsoft", heh, thought I was reading pirates of silicon valley taglines... Full of rhetoric, poor on contents... Then your boring fud about microsoft owning suse bla bla bla bla. Boring, I want to emphasize. And then you are only one year later, anyways...
to make it less and less attractive. If I didn't have a whole batch of stored
For someone criticizing MS, you do a fine job of FUD.
files on this stable, older SuSE distro, I would try something else in a minute. And I may, anyway.
bye! If you have just watched Braveheart, I forgive your the nonsense you've wrote. Or if you were sad and feeling alone. Marcio Ferreira --- Druid -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sat, 2 Feb 2008, Doug McGarrett wrote:-
On Sunday 27 January 2008 12:58, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
You get high quality stuff for free, and then complain, because the life-cycle is "only" 18 months.
ITYM 24 months, plus maybe a month or two extra. <Snip>
Why must we bow down to Microsoft? It seems that they now own SuSE, and are determined to make it less and less attractive.
Now there's some FUD if ever I saw it.
If I didn't have a whole batch of stored files on this stable, older SuSE distro,
And that makes a difference how? I have files I created, and still use on older SuSE[0] versions, as well as using them on later releases.
I would try something else in a minute. And I may, anyway.
There's nothing wrong with that. I occasionally try out Debian and Fedora, and even more rarely Mandriva and Kubuntu. So may you find your foray into trying other distros a fruitful experience, and just like SUSE appears to have always said, have a lot of fun. [0] And yes, SuSE is the correct capitalization. The versions are 9.1 and 9.0, both before the rename to SUSE and, long before openSUSE. Regards, David Bolt -- Team Acorn: http://www.distributed.net/ OGR-P2 @ ~100Mnodes RC5-72 @ ~15Mkeys SUSE 10.1 32bit | openSUSE 10.2 32bit | openSUSE 10.3 32bit | openSUSE 11.0a1 SUSE 10.1 64bit | openSUSE 10.2 64bit | openSUSE 10.3 64bit RISC OS 3.6 | TOS 4.02 | openSUSE 10.3 PPC |RISC OS 3.11 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Doug McGarrett <dmcgarrett@optonline.net> writes:
[...] I disagree with your rant. I would like to see the return of SuSE Pro, and I don't mind paying $60 or so for it, but I do mind paying $200 or so for SLES or SLED (I don't understand the difference) and I want the manuals.
SUSE Pro is still available, it's called openSUSE now and available e.g. from shop.novell.com
You admit that SuSE Pro paid for itself, it came with the manuals, and you could buy it at a decent bookstore. And it came with some non-open-source things that were useful. What was wrong with that system? Why must we
And today all of that is available from day 1 - unless previously - to download from the internet (ok, you cannot download printed books, just pdfs).
bow down to Microsoft? It seems that they now own SuSE, and are determined to make it less and less attractive. If I didn't have a whole batch of stored files on this stable, older SuSE distro, I would try something else in a minute. And I may, anyway.
There's no significant between SUSE Pro and e.g. openSUSE 10.3, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Director Platform / openSUSE, aj@suse.de SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126
Andreas Jaeger wrote:
Doug McGarrett <dmcgarrett@optonline.net> writes:
[...] I disagree with your rant. I would like to see the return of SuSE Pro, and I don't mind paying $60 or so for it, but I do mind paying $200 or so for SLES or SLED (I don't understand the difference) and I want the manuals.
SUSE Pro is still available, it's called openSUSE now and available e.g. from shop.novell.com
You admit that SuSE Pro paid for itself, it came with the manuals, and you could buy it at a decent bookstore. And it came with some non-open-source things that were useful. What was wrong with that system? Why must we
And today all of that is available from day 1 - unless previously - to download from the internet (ok, you cannot download printed books, just pdfs).
bow down to Microsoft? It seems that they now own SuSE, and are determined to make it less and less attractive. If I didn't have a whole batch of stored files on this stable, older SuSE distro, I would try something else in a minute. And I may, anyway.
There's no significant between SUSE Pro and e.g. openSUSE 10.3,
Except that SusePro generated revenue for "long term support" of that product; in contrast, openSUSE is a loss-leader, and generates ZERO revenue for Novell.
Andreas
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Aaron Kulkis escribió:
Except that SusePro generated revenue for "long term support" of that product;
Revenue that was not enough to keep the ball rolling. in contrast, openSUSE is a loss-leader, and
generates ZERO revenue for Novell.
It does generate it, but indirectly. -- “There is always some madness in love. But there is also always some reason in madness.” - Friedrich Nietzsche Cristian Rodríguez R. Platform/OpenSUSE - Core Services SUSE LINUX Products GmbH Research & Development http://www.opensuse.org/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
Aaron Kulkis escribió:
Except that SusePro generated revenue for "long term support" of that product;
Revenue that was not enough to keep the ball rolling.
in contrast, openSUSE is a loss-leader, and
generates ZERO revenue for Novell.
It does generate it, but indirectly.
That's sophistry. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 2008-02-06T12:19:05, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis00@hotpop.com> wrote:
Revenue that was not enough to keep the ball rolling. in contrast, openSUSE is a loss-leader, and
generates ZERO revenue for Novell. It does generate it, but indirectly. That's sophistry.
No, it is not. Novell is well aware of the importance of openSUSE to our revenue stream, even if it cannot be directly measured. If it was a true loss-leader, we wouldn't be doing it. I hope, as a share holder ;-) Regards, Lars -- Teamlead Kernel, SuSE Labs, Research and Development SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) "Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes." -- Oscar Wilde -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Lars Marowsky-Bree wrote:
On 2008-02-06T12:19:05, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis00@hotpop.com> wrote:
Revenue that was not enough to keep the ball rolling. in contrast, openSUSE is a loss-leader, and
generates ZERO revenue for Novell. It does generate it, but indirectly. That's sophistry.
No, it is not. Novell is well aware of the importance of openSUSE to our revenue stream, even if it cannot be directly measured.
If it was a true loss-leader, we wouldn't be doing it. I hope, as a share holder ;-)
The purpose of a "loss-leader" is to INCREASE SALES of other higher-priced (and more profitable) products. For example, grocery stores (at least in the U.S.) typically run sales on chicken and/or ground beef, selling below their cost because once a customer is in the store, they typically buy MORE STUFF. To argue that opensuse isn't a loss-leader and at the same time, argue that it's an important component to the revenue stream is just plain silly. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
If it was a true loss-leader, we wouldn't be doing it. I hope, as a share holder ;-)
The purpose of a "loss-leader" is to INCREASE SALES of other higher-priced (and more profitable) products.
For example, grocery stores (at least in the U.S.) typically run sales on chicken and/or ground beef, selling below their cost because once a customer is in the store, they typically buy MORE STUFF.
To argue that opensuse isn't a loss-leader and at the same time, argue that it's an important component to the revenue stream is just plain silly.
Except that in the case of the grocery store, it works, because there are multiple possible other items you could buy, and you have to physically pass them in order to pay for your chicken or mince. I can't see how that applies to copies of openSUSE - not only do you not have to pass other items (if you do, its in someone else's store, not Novell's, so irrelevant), but there isn't really much else you could buy - most people have only 1 or 2 PCs, so hardly need a copy of SLED or SLES with their purchase, and all the small shops that will buy openSUSE won't be buying SLES or SLED either. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Philip Dowie wrote:
If it was a true loss-leader, we wouldn't be doing it. I hope, as a share holder ;-) The purpose of a "loss-leader" is to INCREASE SALES of other higher-priced (and more profitable) products.
For example, grocery stores (at least in the U.S.) typically run sales on chicken and/or ground beef, selling below their cost because once a customer is in the store, they typically buy MORE STUFF.
To argue that opensuse isn't a loss-leader and at the same time, argue that it's an important component to the revenue stream is just plain silly.
Except that in the case of the grocery store, it works, because there are multiple possible other items you could buy, and you have to physically pass them in order to pay for your chicken or mince.
I can't see how that applies to copies of openSUSE - not only do you not have to pass other items (if you do, its in someone else's store, not Novell's, so irrelevant), but there isn't really much else you could buy - most people have only 1 or 2 PCs, so hardly need a copy of SLED or SLES with their purchase, and all the small shops that will buy openSUSE won't be buying SLES or SLED either.
So you're saying that opensuse is not used to generate sales of SLES or SLED in the long run? If that's the case, then how does that fit with the statement that opensuse is an IMPORTANT PART of SuSE's revenue structure? You're missing the forest for the trees. The idea is to get the IT departments of businesses to try openSUSE before committing to the steeper price of SLED or SLES. -- ARK -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
So you're saying that opensuse is not used to generate sales of SLES or SLED in the long run? If that's the case, then how does that fit with the statement that opensuse is an IMPORTANT PART of SuSE's revenue structure?
You're missing the forest for the trees.
The idea is to get the IT departments of businesses to try openSUSE before committing to the steeper price of SLED or SLES.
openSUSE is important as a test bed. Any business that is happy for their IT department to experiment with their servers in this way will be happy with openSUSE and won't bother upgrading to SLES or SLED. The target market of SLES and SLED are Enterprises, who inherently are highly resistant to any change whatsoever and won't bother with an experimental stage with a product that changes all the time, and besides - you can get SLES and SLED software itself for free, and also 60 days access to the update service. Either Novell Sales will sell them after the trial period of SLES/SLED, or they won't, but you can guarantee the only copy of openSUSE installed will be an unauthorized one. And just to be pedantic, the statement that openSUSE is an important part of SUSE's revenue structure wasn't actually made by me, so my statements don't have to agree with it ;-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
The Magic Nose Goblin wrote: The purpose of a "loss-leader" is to INCREASE SALES of other higher-priced (and more profitable) products.
For example, grocery stores (at least in the U.S.) typically run sales on chicken and/or ground beef, selling below their cost because once a customer is in the store, they typically buy MORE STUFF.
To argue that opensuse isn't a loss-leader and at the same time, argue that it's an important component to the revenue stream is just plain silly.
Actually, based on your definition of a "loss-leader" in the first paragraph, the silly argument would be that opensuse IS a loss-leader and at the same time, that it's an important component to the revenue stream. A loss-leader's purpose is to increase the sales of the revenue generating components, so it can't be both. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 2008-02-04 at 09:13 +0100, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
Doug McGarrett <dmcgarrett@optonline.net> writes:
[...] I disagree with your rant. I would like to see the return of SuSE Pro, and I don't mind paying $60 or so for it, but I do mind paying $200 or so for SLES or SLED (I don't understand the difference) and I want the manuals.
SUSE Pro is still available, it's called openSUSE now and available e.g. from shop.novell.com
You admit that SuSE Pro paid for itself, it came with the manuals, and you could buy it at a decent bookstore. And it came with some non-open-source things that were useful. What was wrong with that system? Why must we
And today all of that is available from day 1 - unless previously - to download from the internet (ok, you cannot download printed books, just pdfs).
bow down to Microsoft? It seems that they now own SuSE, and are determined to make it less and less attractive. If I didn't have a whole batch of stored files on this stable, older SuSE distro, I would try something else in a minute. And I may, anyway.
There's no significant between SUSE Pro and e.g. openSUSE 10.3,
Andreas
I agree with your point Andreas, as I have a boxed edition of 10.3 in my hands right now. (alright, I'm going to put it down so I can type with two hands ;-)) This entire discussion has been bringing me closer to a discussion I had been thinking about bringing up but had been unable to articulate well until now, and so I wanted to bring this up. Basically, I, like many others on this list, remember well the days of, for me at least it was 8.2 and 9.0, when I could walk into a local computer store (I'm in the US, so that was stores like Best Buy and CompUSA) go to the operating system area, and pick up a copy of what was then SuSE LINUX. They had two versions, one a Personal with 3 CDs for $40 and one a Professional with an additional Administration manual or something and 5 CDs for $80. The point was, not only did having the boxed editions in stores raise the visibility of SUSE, even though it cost money it was worth it. Many of you may wonder how the boxed editions are worth it now, when anyone can go onto openSUSE.org and download the full thing for free. Well, I do feel that openSUSE boxed has lost some worth. Primarily because the old boxed editions came with a good manual. I mean no disrespect to the team who produces the absolutely great documentation at openSUSE, but the printed Start-Up guide, in just from 10.0 -> 10.3 has lost a description of the desktop environments. The actual two desktops are no longer discussed in the printed manual! This is actually useful. especially in openSUSE since we make the user choose between environments at the install. The users could read through the book's description of KDE and GNOME and make their decision that way. I also remember the old SUSE decal. I had a decal that came with I think 9.0 with the then-SUSE logo (the newer lizard and the SUSE logo they got right after Novell came in). It was pretty cool, and good free marketing for openSUSE ;-). What I would like to see is a return to the good boxed sets. Here's what I would like to see: a good design for the boxed edition, I like the lizard and all but I've got four boxes that all look exactly alike, with a giant lizard on a white background. I would be hoping for something closer to the look of 9.x or even 8.x boxed editions. I know Novell would probable want to use their own designers, but maybe they could open up to the community for some ideas. Then I'd like to see the openSUSE 11.0 system, it can be in a jeweled case with 2 DVDs like 10.3, but on the system, perhaps openSUSE could make a deal with the guys at Fluendo and include some legal codecs in the system, and DVD playback? That way, there is value added for the consumer, since they would be getting good extra software. Then a strong Start-Up guide, with info on installing, using the system, including incorporating the KDE and GNOME user guides into the book. And then some sort of "shameless plug" openSUSE branded stuff. Perhaps a window decal or a system badge? Just something cheap thrown into the box to give the user a feeling of openSUSE's brand. And no need to return to the Personal and Professional 2-tiered boxed system. Just sell one edition, preferably for below $100, and sell it at stores where normal users will find it, and I believe many more people will take openSUSE seriously as a product to be messed with ;-) Just my idea, and I hope someone would agree. -- Kevin "Yo" Dupuy | Public Mail <kevin@kevinsword.com> Hope for America: Ron Paul for President. www.RonPaul2008.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, February 4, 2008 1:35 pm, Kevin Dupuy wrote:
Just my idea, and I hope someone would agree.
motion seconded -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 04 February 2008 01:35:31 pm Kevin Dupuy wrote: <snip>
Just my idea, and I hope someone would agree. -- Kevin "Yo" Dupuy | Public Mail <kevin@kevinsword.com> Hope for America: Ron Paul for President. www.RonPaul2008.com </snip>
I agree I miss the good boxed set. I bought the 10.3 box set but it appears worthless because of the bug with SATA drive and SIS chip sets. I cannot install it. The bug report says its resolved but no link to the fix or how to use it with the 10.3 boxed set. I did install 10.4 Alpha from a DVD I made from the iso but thats not as good as the boxed set. Long download time for DVD ISO on fibre network. I too hope they go back to selling a boxed set in the stores. -- Russ Linux register user 441463 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Russ Fineman pecked at the keyboard and wrote:
On Monday 04 February 2008 01:35:31 pm Kevin Dupuy wrote: <snip>
Just my idea, and I hope someone would agree. -- Kevin "Yo" Dupuy | Public Mail <kevin@kevinsword.com> Hope for America: Ron Paul for President. www.RonPaul2008.com </snip>
I agree I miss the good boxed set. I bought the 10.3 box set but it appears worthless because of the bug with SATA drive and SIS chip sets. I cannot install it. The bug report says its resolved but no link to the fix or how to use it with the 10.3 boxed set. I did install 10.4 Alpha from a DVD I made from the iso but thats not as good as the boxed set. Long download time for DVD ISO on fibre network.
Now that you have the 11.0 alpha 1 (not 10.4) you can download just the alpha 2 delta iso and use applydeltaiso to create the alpha 2 DVD. Much quicker download. -- Ken Schneider SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Monday 2008-02-04 at 16:04 -0800, Russ Fineman wrote:
I agree I miss the good boxed set. I bought the 10.3 box set but it appears worthless because of the bug with SATA drive and SIS chip sets. I cannot install it. The bug report says its resolved but no link to the fix or how to use it with the 10.3 boxed set.
I believe you have the free installation support that comes with the boxed eidtion: make use of it. Request them the help. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD4DBQFHqDsjtTMYHG2NR9URAv22AJi82nKdHYH6mo1xGETlmAvOa4KjAJ9QZS0k 0ufAyp2/QQH+bNpETi/XbQ== =a6lb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 04 February 2008 04:35:31 pm Kevin Dupuy wrote: ...........<snip a whole bunch>...........
What I would like to see is a return to the good boxed sets. Here's what I would like to see: a good design for the boxed edition, I like the lizard and all but I've got four boxes that all look exactly alike, with a giant lizard on a white background. I would be hoping for something closer to the look of 9.x or even 8.x boxed editions. I know Novell would probable want to use their own designers, but maybe they could open up to the community for some ideas. Then I'd like to see the openSUSE 11.0 system, it can be in a jeweled case with 2 DVDs like 10.3, but on the system, perhaps openSUSE could make a deal with the guys at Fluendo and include some legal codecs in the system, and DVD playback? That way, there is value added for the consumer, since they would be getting good extra software. Then a strong Start-Up guide, with info on installing, using the system, including incorporating the KDE and GNOME user guides into the book. And then some sort of "shameless plug" openSUSE branded stuff. Perhaps a window decal or a system badge? Just something cheap thrown into the box to give the user a feeling of openSUSE's brand.
And how about all of the potential new users out there. They walk into the store and see it on the shelf. They're ticked off at Windows and they say hmmmm......I've heard a little about this. I think I will try this. Otherwise they would have no idea where to go or what to do to download and install SuSE, or if it was even possible for them. In my case I was running some real old version of Red Hat, getting frustrated trying it out but while I was still usinng Windows 95. I walked into a Comp USA and saw SuSE 6. something or 7.0 maybe?, on the shelf. Bought it. Read all of the nice manuals, blew Red Hat away, installed it and never looked back. The manuals sat right there on the desktop next to the monitor until I found this list. Bought every boxed set afterwards up to 10.2 when there was no advantage to buying the boxed set and downloaded 10.2 and 10.3 to install them. But now I know what I am doing ??? There is no way a Joe Average brand new user can download and install SuSE without help from somebody already using it. I think of myself in those days. Nobody to help me with absolutely no technical computer training whatsoever. There are a lot of people out there like that. I venture to say there are very few people like me on this list.You all come from computer backgrounds. To those potential users, like I was, Windows kinda-sort-of works and they are afraid to try it. A lot of trouble and commitment for them to do it. I was lucky, I had the boxed set to start me out. The boxed set needs to be brought back for those potential new users. Makes it a lot easier for them. Hmmmm....Maybe SLED in a box? Unless Novell really doesn't want them. Bob S -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Bob S <911@sanctum.com> writes:
And how about all of the potential new users out there. They walk into the store and see it on the shelf. They're ticked off at Windows and they say hmmmm......I've heard a little about this. I think I will try this. Otherwise they would have no idea where to go or what to do to download and install SuSE, or if it was even possible for them.
What about cover mounts for magazines? Wouldn't that have the same effect of visibility? Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Director Platform / openSUSE, aj@suse.de SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126
Andreas, Since you are following the discussion, I'll add my 2 cents. On Tue February 5 2008 00:10:43 Andreas Jaeger wrote:
And how about all of the potential new users out there. They walk into the store and see it on the shelf. They're ticked off at Windows and they say hmmmm......I've heard a little about this. I think I will try this. Otherwise they would have no idea where to go or what to do to download and install SuSE, or if it was even possible for them.
What about cover mounts for magazines? Wouldn't that have the same effect of visibility?
I would say no. Linux magazines have a very low visibility. I have to look hard for them behind the rows and rows of Win and Mac magazines (and I always pull some of them to the front :). But the common user only buys magazines _after_ he/she starts using a system and, even then, such a user may feel overwhelmed by all the overload of Linux programs the magazines tend to offer. A non-Linux user will browse the shelves of Staples, Best Buy and Future Shop looking for programs to improve their user experience and the openSUSE box would certainly stand out there. As much as I miss holding the thick administration manual in my hands, I must say that the current package is a good compromise. But there could be an item in the box cover pointing to the "complete administration manual as PDF" and it could be available at the top level, readable from Windows before the installation. Finally, the stickers. Ah, how I miss the stickers! I would prefer a strip of cheap, small round ones, instead of just one fancy sticker. I removed the Windows sticker from my Thinkpad, but I have nothing to place on its stead. And my computers at the university don't advertise themselves as being different anymore. -- Carlos FL "It is not worth an intelligent man's time to be in the majority. By definition, there are already enough people to do that." - G. H. Hardy -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 05 February 2008 13:57, Carlos F. Lange wrote:
What about cover mounts for magazines? Wouldn't that have the same effect of visibility?
I would say no. Linux magazines have a very low visibility. I have to look hard for them behind the rows and rows of Win and Mac magazines (and I always pull some of them to the front :). But the common user only buys magazines _after_ he/she starts using a system and, even then, such a user may feel overwhelmed by all the overload of Linux programs the magazines tend to offer.
It's not just Linux magazines. Here in Germany, c't magazine repeatedly had openSUSE DVDs on the cover (and of course a number of articles about it inside, too). This is one of the largest and also most well-respected computer magazines there is on the German market. This for sure does have large visibility in the entire IT market, not just the Linux niche. For other countries, I have no clue if and how we ever distributed DVDs that way. CU -- Stefan Hundhammer <sh@suse.de> Penguin by conviction. YaST2 Development SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Nürnberg, Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Stefan Hundhammer pecked at the keyboard and wrote:
On Tuesday 05 February 2008 13:57, Carlos F. Lange wrote:
What about cover mounts for magazines? Wouldn't that have the same effect of visibility? I would say no. Linux magazines have a very low visibility. I have to look hard for them behind the rows and rows of Win and Mac magazines (and I always pull some of them to the front :). But the common user only buys magazines _after_ he/she starts using a system and, even then, such a user may feel overwhelmed by all the overload of Linux programs the magazines tend to offer.
It's not just Linux magazines. Here in Germany, c't magazine repeatedly had openSUSE DVDs on the cover (and of course a number of articles about it inside, too). This is one of the largest and also most well-respected computer magazines there is on the German market. This for sure does have large visibility in the entire IT market, not just the Linux niche.
For other countries, I have no clue if and how we ever distributed DVDs that way.
CU
If you distribute it through magazines why not put it in the windows magazines? A live DVD that has the option to be installed? -- Ken Schneider SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Ken Schneider <suse-list3@bout-tyme.net> writes:
Stefan Hundhammer pecked at the keyboard and wrote:
On Tuesday 05 February 2008 13:57, Carlos F. Lange wrote:
What about cover mounts for magazines? Wouldn't that have the same effect of visibility? I would say no. Linux magazines have a very low visibility. I have to look hard for them behind the rows and rows of Win and Mac magazines (and I always pull some of them to the front :). But the common user only buys magazines _after_ he/she starts using a system and, even then, such a user may feel overwhelmed by all the overload of Linux programs the magazines tend to offer.
It's not just Linux magazines. Here in Germany, c't magazine repeatedly had openSUSE DVDs on the cover (and of course a number of articles about it inside, too). This is one of the largest and also most well-respected computer magazines there is on the German market. This for sure does have large visibility in the entire IT market, not just the Linux niche.
Agreed, we do have more installation from just the c't magazine cover mount than worldwide box sales for openSUSE 10.3.
For other countries, I have no clue if and how we ever distributed DVDs that way.
CU
If you distribute it through magazines why not put it in the windows magazines? A live DVD that has the option to be installed?
Something we should look at ;-) Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Director Platform / openSUSE, aj@suse.de SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126
On Tue, 2008-02-05 at 15:14 +0100, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
Ken Schneider <suse-list3@bout-tyme.net> writes:
Stefan Hundhammer pecked at the keyboard and wrote:
On Tuesday 05 February 2008 13:57, Carlos F. Lange wrote:
What about cover mounts for magazines? Wouldn't that have the same effect of visibility? I would say no. Linux magazines have a very low visibility. I have to look hard for them behind the rows and rows of Win and Mac magazines (and I always pull some of them to the front :). But the common user only buys magazines _after_ he/she starts using a system and, even then, such a user may feel overwhelmed by all the overload of Linux programs the magazines tend to offer.
It's not just Linux magazines. Here in Germany, c't magazine repeatedly had openSUSE DVDs on the cover (and of course a number of articles about it inside, too). This is one of the largest and also most well-respected computer magazines there is on the German market. This for sure does have large visibility in the entire IT market, not just the Linux niche.
Agreed, we do have more installation from just the c't magazine cover mount than worldwide box sales for openSUSE 10.3.
I'm not sure 10.3 is a great example, since I'd argue that openSUSE 10.3 wasn't distributed well, it was only available online at shop.Novell.com. I'd also like to, at the very least, see openSUSE 11.0 become available for boxed editions at the same time as the release for public download, so we can get the boxed edition at the same time as the release time, instead of, what Andreas will probably remember, as waiting one month after the release of the product for free download for buyers to receive the boxed edition. -- Kevin "Yo" Dupuy | Public Mail <kevin@kevinsword.com> Hope for America: Ron Paul for President. www.RonPaul2008.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Kevin Dupuy wrote:
On Tue, 2008-02-05 at 15:14 +0100, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
Ken Schneider <suse-list3@bout-tyme.net> writes:
Stefan Hundhammer pecked at the keyboard and wrote:
On Tuesday 05 February 2008 13:57, Carlos F. Lange wrote:
What about cover mounts for magazines? Wouldn't that have the same effect of visibility? I would say no. Linux magazines have a very low visibility. I have to look hard for them behind the rows and rows of Win and Mac magazines (and I always pull some of them to the front :). But the common user only buys magazines _after_ he/she starts using a system and, even then, such a user may feel overwhelmed by all the overload of Linux programs the magazines tend to offer. It's not just Linux magazines. Here in Germany, c't magazine repeatedly had openSUSE DVDs on the cover (and of course a number of articles about it inside, too). This is one of the largest and also most well-respected computer magazines there is on the German market. This for sure does have large visibility in the entire IT market, not just the Linux niche. Agreed, we do have more installation from just the c't magazine cover mount than worldwide box sales for openSUSE 10.3.
I'm not sure 10.3 is a great example, since I'd argue that openSUSE 10.3 wasn't distributed well, it was only available online at shop.Novell.com.
I'd also like to, at the very least, see openSUSE 11.0 become available for boxed editions at the same time as the release for public download, so we can get the boxed edition at the same time as the release time, instead of, what Andreas will probably remember, as waiting one month after the release of the product for free download for buyers to receive the boxed edition.
In practice, that means delaying the release of the download version, which I see as rather pointless. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Stickers! Yeah. I need more of those. I have some old from Mandrake times, t-shirt, stickers for tower and mouse pad (sticky one, that you glue down on your desk). I still use it even after 5 years, so yeah, I'm totally into stickers and small stuff. -- Best regards, Nick Zeljkovic -----Original Message----- From: Carlos F. Lange [mailto:carlos.lange@ualberta.ca] Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 1:58 PM To: opensuse@opensuse.org Subject: Re: [opensuse] Re: openSUSE Boxed Editions Andreas, Since you are following the discussion, I'll add my 2 cents. On Tue February 5 2008 00:10:43 Andreas Jaeger wrote:
And how about all of the potential new users out there. They walk into the store and see it on the shelf. They're ticked off at Windows and they say hmmmm......I've heard a little about this. I think I will try this. Otherwise they would have no idea where to go or what to do to download and install SuSE, or if it was even possible for them.
What about cover mounts for magazines? Wouldn't that have the same effect of visibility?
I would say no. Linux magazines have a very low visibility. I have to look hard for them behind the rows and rows of Win and Mac magazines (and I always pull some of them to the front :). But the common user only buys magazines _after_ he/she starts using a system and, even then, such a user may feel overwhelmed by all the overload of Linux programs the magazines tend to offer. A non-Linux user will browse the shelves of Staples, Best Buy and Future Shop looking for programs to improve their user experience and the openSUSE box would certainly stand out there. As much as I miss holding the thick administration manual in my hands, I must say that the current package is a good compromise. But there could be an item in the box cover pointing to the "complete administration manual as PDF" and it could be available at the top level, readable from Windows before the installation. Finally, the stickers. Ah, how I miss the stickers! I would prefer a strip of cheap, small round ones, instead of just one fancy sticker. I removed the Windows sticker from my Thinkpad, but I have nothing to place on its stead. And my computers at the university don't advertise themselves as being different anymore. -- Carlos FL "It is not worth an intelligent man's time to be in the majority. By definition, there are already enough people to do that." - G. H. Hardy -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
A non-Linux user will browse the shelves of Staples, Best Buy and Future Shop looking for programs to improve their user experience and the openSUSE box would certainly stand out there.
openSUSE is on the shelves at MediaMarkt (a rough equivalent to Future Shop in Canada) here in Germany and in the Netherlands. :-) C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 2008-02-05 at 14:21 +0100, Clayton wrote:
A non-Linux user will browse the shelves of Staples, Best Buy and Future Shop looking for programs to improve their user experience and the openSUSE box would certainly stand out there.
openSUSE is on the shelves at MediaMarkt (a rough equivalent to Future Shop in Canada) here in Germany and in the Netherlands. :-)
C.
yeah, I think I remember reading somewhere (a SUSE dev's blog I think) that they were on the shelves in Germany. That's good at least. -- Kevin "Yo" Dupuy | Public Mail <kevin@kevinsword.com> Hope for America: Ron Paul for President. www.RonPaul2008.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Carlos F. Lange wrote:
As much as I miss holding the thick administration manual in my hands, I must say that the current package is a good compromise. But there could be an item in the box cover pointing to the "complete administration manual as PDF" and it could be available at the top level, readable from Windows before the installation.
Perhaps SUSE could team up with the people who publish those Linux Bible books to include a CD. They do publish a SUSE Bible.
Finally, the stickers. Ah, how I miss the stickers! I would prefer a strip of cheap, small round ones, instead of just one fancy sticker. I removed the Windows sticker from my Thinkpad, but I have nothing to place on its stead. And my computers at the university don't advertise themselves as being different anymore.
I bought some domed Tux stickers from Cheapbytes. I've also created my own stickers, by printing out a Tux picture on label stock. There's nothing to stop you from printing your own SUSE stickers, with a geeko on them. -- Use OpenOffice.org <http://www.openoffice.org> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
James Knott wrote:
Perhaps SUSE could team up with the people who publish those Linux Bible books to include a CD. They do publish a SUSE Bible.
It already comes with a DVD containing Suse. Cheers, Dave -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Dave Howorth wrote:
James Knott wrote:
Perhaps SUSE could team up with the people who publish those Linux Bible books to include a CD. They do publish a SUSE Bible.
It already comes with a DVD containing Suse.
Unfortunately, every SuSE Linux Bible or Redhat Linux Bible I've ever seen on store shelves has a CD or DVD of a version which is horridly out of date, and, in my opinion, makes anyone new to Linux get the impression that Linux is, and always will be, an also-ran, Johnny-come-lately in the field of software development. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 05 February 2008 18:03, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
Perhaps SUSE could team up with the people who publish those Linux Bible books to include a CD. They do publish a SUSE Bible.
It already comes with a DVD containing Suse.
Unfortunately, every SuSE Linux Bible or Redhat Linux Bible I've ever seen on store shelves has a CD or DVD of a version which is horridly out of date
Right. That's the biggest problem with that approach. Books seem to have a much longer shelf life than software. You can still easily get a Linux book with a 9.1 CD / DVD these days. And even though that book's sections about installation might be outdated, the rest might not, so you can't really blame the book store or the publisher that much. CU -- Stefan Hundhammer <sh@suse.de> Penguin by conviction. YaST2 Development SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Nürnberg, Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Stefan Hundhammer wrote:
On Tuesday 05 February 2008 18:03, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
Perhaps SUSE could team up with the people who publish those Linux Bible books to include a CD. They do publish a SUSE Bible. It already comes with a DVD containing Suse. Unfortunately, every SuSE Linux Bible or Redhat Linux Bible I've ever seen on store shelves has a CD or DVD of a version which is horridly out of date
Right. That's the biggest problem with that approach. Books seem to have a much longer shelf life than software. You can still easily get a Linux book with a 9.1 CD / DVD these days. And even though that book's sections about installation might be outdated, the rest might not, so you can't really blame the book store or the publisher that much.
And if you wanted to show someone Linux...would you even think of showing him 9.1 now, in 2008? THAT's the big problem with the book-store method. It would be MUCH better to shrink-wrap the book with the CD/DVD packet OUTSIDE, in front of the front-cover of the book, with the SuSE Version number plainly visable, so that the primary product is the "current software," not the book. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Aaron Kulkis a écrit :
so that the primary product is the "current software," not the book.
no. The shelf will never be up to date and if not sold the vendor can't return a software (he can return a book) in fact the dvd if of little importance, the book is the main thing. And I just gave the 10.1 manual (last in french), laser printer and the 9.1 (paperbound) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Thursday 07 February 2008, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
Stefan Hundhammer wrote:
On Tuesday 05 February 2008 18:03, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
Perhaps SUSE could team up with the people who publish those Linux Bible books to include a CD. They do publish a SUSE Bible.
It already comes with a DVD containing Suse.
Unfortunately, every SuSE Linux Bible or Redhat Linux Bible I've ever seen on store shelves has a CD or DVD of a version which is horridly out of date
Right. That's the biggest problem with that approach. Books seem to have a much longer shelf life than software. You can still easily get a Linux book with a 9.1 CD / DVD these days. And even though that book's sections about installation might be outdated, the rest might not, so you can't really blame the book store or the publisher that much.
And if you wanted to show someone Linux...would you even think of showing him 9.1 now, in 2008?
THAT's the big problem with the book-store method.
It would be MUCH better to shrink-wrap the book with the CD/DVD packet OUTSIDE, in front of the front-cover of the book, with the SuSE Version number plainly visable, so that the primary product is the "current software," not the book. But this still won't change the shelf life cycle. After 18 months this software with an additional book is pretty outdated as well. M
-- Michael Löffler, Product Management SUSE LINUX Products GmbH - Nürnberg - AG Nürnberg - HRB 16746 - GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Michael Loeffler wrote:
On Thursday 07 February 2008, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
On Tuesday 05 February 2008 18:03, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
Perhaps SUSE could team up with the people who publish those Linux Bible books to include a CD. They do publish a SUSE Bible. It already comes with a DVD containing Suse. Unfortunately, every SuSE Linux Bible or Redhat Linux Bible I've ever seen on store shelves has a CD or DVD of a version which is horridly out of date Right. That's the biggest problem with that approach. Books seem to have a much longer shelf life than software. You can still easily get a Linux book with a 9.1 CD / DVD these days. And even though that book's sections about installation might be outdated, the rest might not, so you can't really blame the book store or the publisher that much. And if you wanted to show someone Linux...would you even
Stefan Hundhammer wrote: think of showing him 9.1 now, in 2008?
THAT's the big problem with the book-store method.
It would be MUCH better to shrink-wrap the book with the CD/DVD packet OUTSIDE, in front of the front-cover of the book, with the SuSE Version number plainly visable, so that the primary product is the "current software," not the book. But this still won't change the shelf life cycle. After 18 months this software with an additional book is pretty outdated as well. M
But who goes to the bookstore looking for SOFTWARE? Nobody has given a satisfactory answer to that question. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 11 February 2008 15:53, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
But who goes to the bookstore looking for SOFTWARE?
Nobody has given a satisfactory answer to that question.
Actually, here in Germany, this used to be pretty common, in particular for everything related to Linux. IIRC we made a large proportion of our box sales with that book store channel. This might have to do with sciense book stores in university cities having some tradition in selling books about Unix and X11. But times have changed, and most people buy software in electronics megastores where the salespeople rarely know anything about those colorful boxes they sell (unless it's the latest hottest game, of course, because they are already almost finished with it). CU -- Stefan Hundhammer <sh@suse.de> Penguin by conviction. YaST2 Development SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Nürnberg, Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Stefan Hundhammer wrote:
On Monday 11 February 2008 15:53, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
But who goes to the bookstore looking for SOFTWARE?
Nobody has given a satisfactory answer to that question.
Actually, here in Germany, this used to be pretty common, in particular for everything related to Linux. IIRC we made a large proportion of our box sales with that book store channel. This might have to do with sciense book stores in university cities having some tradition in selling books about Unix and X11.
That's great for the limited academic community, in which a "college book store" is more like a small department store, selling calculators, items for dorm rooms, and sweatshirts, jackets, bumper stickers, coffee cups, and anything else that has a college logo on it. Away from a college campus, however, book stores sell books and magazines, and optionally, music. While getting college students IS important, you have a LOT of people who are not in college, but who are also good prospects for
But times have changed, and most people buy software in electronics megastores where the salespeople rarely know anything about those colorful boxes they sell (unless it's the latest hottest game, of course, because they are already almost finished with it).
Exactly. And they carry products which are meant to be sold at "computer stores," not "book stores". -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 12 February 2008 10:31, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
Stefan Hundhammer wrote:
On Monday 11 February 2008 15:53, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
But who goes to the bookstore looking for SOFTWARE?
Nobody has given a satisfactory answer to that question.
Actually, here in Germany, this used to be pretty common,
in particular for everything related to Linux. IIRC we made a large proportion of our box sales with that book store channel. This might have to do with sciense book stores in university cities having some tradition in selling books about Unix and X11. /snip/
Well, there are two (related) bookselling channels in the US, as well as a couple of other big names. The related ones are Borders and Amazon.com. And I have bought several versions of Linux from Borders. If they sell it, it is available from Amazon.com. I haven't been there lately, but they have a large computer section (of books) and a small section of operating systems. I bet you can find Mandriva and some version of Redhat there. And all kinds of Linux magazines with various OS releases bound in. --doug Blessed are the peacemakers ... for they shall be shot at from both sides. --A.M. Greeley -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 2008-02-11 at 09:53 -0500, Aaron Kulkis wrote: <snip>
But who goes to the bookstore looking for SOFTWARE?
Nobody has given a satisfactory answer to that question.
Well, because all of the computer shops only sell M$ stuff. And apple-software is only to be found in their dedicated apple-stores. Where else to look? At the grocery? the chemist? DIYS-shop? Hm, last one might be a good place actually ;-))) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Hans Witvliet wrote:
On Mon, 2008-02-11 at 09:53 -0500, Aaron Kulkis wrote: <snip>
But who goes to the bookstore looking for SOFTWARE?
Nobody has given a satisfactory answer to that question.
Well, because all of the computer shops only sell M$ stuff.
I've yet to see a computer shop which sells software not have a section for Mac software; generally smaller, but nonetheless its there.
And apple-software is only to be found in their dedicated apple-stores.
Where else to look? At the grocery? the chemist? DIYS-shop? Hm, last one might be a good place actually ;-)))
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Wednesday 13 February 2008, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
Hans Witvliet wrote:
On Mon, 2008-02-11 at 09:53 -0500, Aaron Kulkis wrote: <snip>
But who goes to the bookstore looking for SOFTWARE?
Nobody has given a satisfactory answer to that question.
Well, because all of the computer shops only sell M$ stuff.
I've yet to see a computer shop which sells software not have a section for Mac software; generally smaller, but nonetheless its there.
I've yet to see a (non-Mac-only-dedicated) computer shop that would sell Mac software.
And apple-software is only to be found in their dedicated apple-stores.
Exactly. Tero Pesonen -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Feb 13, 2008, at 4:42 PM, Tero Pesonen wrote:
On Wednesday 13 February 2008, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
Hans Witvliet wrote:
On Mon, 2008-02-11 at 09:53 -0500, Aaron Kulkis wrote: <snip>
But who goes to the bookstore looking for SOFTWARE?
Nobody has given a satisfactory answer to that question.
Well, because all of the computer shops only sell M$ stuff.
I've yet to see a computer shop which sells software not have a section for Mac software; generally smaller, but nonetheless its there.
I've yet to see a (non-Mac-only-dedicated) computer shop that would sell Mac software.
And apple-software is only to be found in their dedicated apple-stores.
Exactly.
Tero Pesonen
What shops are you going to? I'm in the US, and at stores like Circuit City and Best Buy (and formerly CompUSA), there were a ton of Mac stuff there. It filled an entire shelf on a wall. This includes a store that didn't even sell Macs. -- Kevin "Yo" Dupuy | Public Mail: <kevin@kevinsword.com> Hope for America: Ron Paul for President <RonPaul2008.com> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Dave Howorth wrote:
James Knott wrote:
Perhaps SUSE could team up with the people who publish those Linux Bible books to include a CD. They do publish a SUSE Bible.
It already comes with a DVD containing Suse.
Cheers, Dave
Is that recent? I bought that book a few years ago, and I don't recall a DVD. I'll have to check my copy, when I get home tonight. -- Use OpenOffice.org <http://www.openoffice.org> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 2008-02-05 at 05:57 -0700, Carlos F. Lange wrote:
Andreas,
Since you are following the discussion, I'll add my 2 cents.
On Tue February 5 2008 00:10:43 Andreas Jaeger wrote:
And how about all of the potential new users out there. They walk into the store and see it on the shelf. They're ticked off at Windows and they say hmmmm......I've heard a little about this. I think I will try this. Otherwise they would have no idea where to go or what to do to download and install SuSE, or if it was even possible for them.
What about cover mounts for magazines? Wouldn't that have the same effect of visibility?
I would say no. Linux magazines have a very low visibility. I have to look hard for them behind the rows and rows of Win and Mac magazines (and I always pull some of them to the front :). But the common user only buys magazines _after_ he/she starts using a system and, even then, such a user may feel overwhelmed by all the overload of Linux programs the magazines tend to offer.
A non-Linux user will browse the shelves of Staples, Best Buy and Future Shop looking for programs to improve their user experience and the openSUSE box would certainly stand out there.
As much as I miss holding the thick administration manual in my hands, I must say that the current package is a good compromise. But there could be an item in the box cover pointing to the "complete administration manual as PDF" and it could be available at the top level, readable from Windows before the installation.
Finally, the stickers. Ah, how I miss the stickers! I would prefer a strip of cheap, small round ones, instead of just one fancy sticker. I removed the Windows sticker from my Thinkpad, but I have nothing to place on its stead. And my computers at the university don't advertise themselves as being different anymore.
-- Carlos FL "It is not worth an intelligent man's time to be in the majority. By definition, there are already enough people to do that." - G. H. Hardy
I would agree. -- Kevin "Yo" Dupuy | Public Mail <kevin@kevinsword.com> Hope for America: Ron Paul for President. www.RonPaul2008.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Andreas Jaeger wrote:
Bob S <911@sanctum.com> writes:
And how about all of the potential new users out there. They walk into the store and see it on the shelf. They're ticked off at Windows and they say hmmmm......I've heard a little about this. I think I will try this. Otherwise they would have no idea where to go or what to do to download and install SuSE, or if it was even possible for them.
What about cover mounts for magazines? Wouldn't that have the same effect of visibility?
When was the last time ANYONE said to themselves: I nned some software... so I better go to the newspaper & magazine stand.
Andreas
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 05 February 2008 11:43, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
Andreas Jaeger wrote:
Bob S <911@sanctum.com> writes:
And how about all of the potential new users out there. They walk into the store and see it on the shelf. They're ticked off at Windows and they say hmmmm......I've heard a little about this. I think I will try this. Otherwise they would have no idea where to go or what to do to download and install SuSE, or if it was even possible for them.
What about cover mounts for magazines? Wouldn't that have the same effect of visibility?
When was the last time ANYONE said to themselves: I nned some software... so I better go to the newspaper & magazine stand.
Andreas
Well, when was the last time anyone went to a bookstore, like Borders, and looked in the computer section? Perhaps you were looking for something else, but how could you not look in the computer section? You wouldn't be reading this list if you were not! And when were you in Staples and not passed thru the computer stuff area? Alright, Staples is not my favorite computer place, they don't usually have anything on sale, and they're Windows oriented, but they _could_ be a source for Linux, since they're so well placed everywhere. And they _do_ have the printer paper I need, so I do go there. As well as the toner, etc. Forget magazine stores. Think big. --doug Blessed are the peacemakers ... for they shall be shot at from both sides. --A.M. Greeley -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Wednesday 06 February 2008 16:32, Doug McGarrett wrote:
...
Well, when was the last time anyone went to a bookstore, like Borders, and looked in the computer section? Perhaps you were looking for something else, but how could you not look in the computer section? You wouldn't be reading this list if you were not!
I'm not sure your point, but... I for one love to peruse the shelves of local bookstores. My favorites are the local used bookstore (a gold mine, if ever there was one, at least here in the Silicon Valley) and the Stanford bookstore (formerly plural, with the now-defunct location literally right around the corner from my now-defunct corporate gig). And Borders, at least the one on University Ave. in Palo Alto, has a very good computer / IT section, and I do enjoy browsing there. And suffering from book-lust as I do, I often cannot refrain from picking up a title or two.
...
Forget magazine stores. Think big.
Amazon.com? Kindle??
--doug
Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Doug McGarrett wrote:
On Tuesday 05 February 2008 11:43, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
Andreas Jaeger wrote:
Bob S <911@sanctum.com> writes:
And how about all of the potential new users out there. They walk into the store and see it on the shelf. They're ticked off at Windows and they say hmmmm......I've heard a little about this. I think I will try this. Otherwise they would have no idea where to go or what to do to download and install SuSE, or if it was even possible for them. What about cover mounts for magazines? Wouldn't that have the same effect of visibility? When was the last time ANYONE said to themselves: I nned some software... so I better go to the newspaper & magazine stand.
Andreas
Well, when was the last time anyone went to a bookstore, like Borders, and looked in the computer section? Perhaps you were looking for something else, but how could you not look in the computer section? You wouldn't be reading this list if you were not!
I'm well aware that some books have software in them -- I even have a book that included SPICE (the circuit analysis program developed at UC Berkeley), but when people want to go buy software, they head to a computer store, not a book store.
And when were you in Staples and not passed thru the computer stuff area? Alright, Staples is not my favorite computer place, they don't usually have anything on sale, and they're Windows oriented, but they _could_ be a source for Linux, since they're so well placed everywhere. And they _do_ have the printer paper I need, so I do go there. As well as the toner, etc.
Staples is carrying Linux books?
Forget magazine stores. Think big.
--doug
Blessed are the peacemakers ... for they shall be shot at from both sides. --A.M. Greeley
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On Mon, February 4, 2008 11:10 pm, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
Bob S <911@sanctum.com> writes:
And how about all of the potential new users out there. They walk into the store and see it on the shelf. They're ticked off at Windows and they say hmmmm......I've heard a little about this. I think I will try this. Otherwise they would have no idea where to go or what to do to download and install SuSE, or if it was even possible for them.
What about cover mounts for magazines? Wouldn't that have the same effect of visibility?
That would be excellent. It would be especially effective if you would get them into magazines that aren't Linux-specific yet aren't Windows-focused. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Kevin, you're right that the box is smaller than before but the manuals you're asking for are available as PDFs on the media. We do not have the box anymore in most of the stores. This is indeed a lost marketing way but this is both a result of a changing environment where many more users prefer to download for free (I know there are others) instead of willing to pay the box price - and a different company that does not go aggressively into the stores. We had a hard time pushing the box on the shelves in the end - and even where it is still today, you see far smaller numbers:-( Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Director Platform / openSUSE, aj@suse.de SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Tuesday 2008-02-05 at 08:09 +0100, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
you're right that the box is smaller than before but the manuals you're asking for are available as PDFs on the media.
The lack of the printed manuals is the sole reason making me not buy the boxed edition. You could perhaps think of selling the books separately; maybe even a thicker one with lots of info :-? Instead of selling the dvd, sell the book, with a dvd for free. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHqDwrtTMYHG2NR9URAmtIAJ43nwey1t5frTojXT/MNcsuSAijVACcDdRo 9KOcgC88PyzxzXXOVkge9ZU= =0Uef -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. wrote:
you're right that the box is smaller than before but the manuals you're asking for are available as PDFs on the media. The lack of the printed manuals is the sole reason making me not buy the boxed edition. You could perhaps think of selling the books separately; maybe even a
The Tuesday 2008-02-05 at 08:09 +0100, Andreas Jaeger wrote: thicker one with lots of info :-? Instead of selling the dvd, sell the book, with a dvd for free. Excellent thinker, Carlos :-) I keep getting amazed at your knowledge and kindness of sharing.
Kind regards Philippe -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
you're right that the box is smaller than before but the manuals you're asking for are available as PDFs on the media.
The lack of the printed manuals is the sole reason making me not buy the boxed edition.
You could perhaps think of selling the books separately; maybe even a thicker one with lots of info :-? Instead of selling the dvd, sell the book, with a dvd for free.
Same here. I have every box set from 6.0 to 10.2, but no 10.3. The lack of manuals is the main reason I didn't buy 10.3... even though I don't use them that much, they do get used. Interestingly, a friend I introduced to openSUSE specifically bought the box version from a local shop rather than download it specifically because he got at least some documentation with it I like Carlos' idea of printed material as an extra. What about making the manuals available via one of the online print houses? I know we could all go submit an order ourselves, but facilitating the ordering. maybe via teh website might encourage some newer users to order the books. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. a écrit :
You could perhaps think of selling the books separately; maybe even a thicker one with lots of info :-? Instead of selling the dvd, sell the book, with a dvd for free.
absolutely. There is a lack (at least in france) of Linux books, probably due to the fast changes. Suse books used to be the better books about Linux I ever read (and I read many) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. schrieb:
The lack of the printed manuals is the sole reason making me not buy the boxed edition.
Indeed, I really do miss the printed handbook. A cheeky but subtle car sticker would be great too. Something like black chameleon eating a colorful butterfly or so. And btw, I can imagine to buy also Opensuse bundles with good Linux books, e.g. a Kofler for Germany or a O'Reilly in English, or what you find suitable in all countries. It would be great, if such bundles came, at least for major releases, with a Opensuse branding. -- All the best, Peter J. P-N. aedon DESIGNS http://www.hochzeitsbuch.info http://www.hochzeitsbuch.selfip.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Andreas Jaeger wrote:
Kevin,
you're right that the box is smaller than before but the manuals you're asking for are available as PDFs on the media. We do not have the box anymore in most of the stores. This is indeed a lost marketing way but this is both a result of a changing environment where many more users prefer to download for free (I know there are others) instead of willing to pay the box price - and a different company that does not go aggressively into the stores. We had a hard time pushing the box on the shelves in the end - and even where it is still today, you see far smaller numbers:-(
They need to be presented to the new user at first boot up. Otherwise, they might as well not even exist.
Andreas
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On Tuesday 05 February 2008 15:30, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
you're right that the box is smaller than before but the manuals you're asking for are available as PDFs on the media. ...
They need to be presented to the new user at first boot up.
Well, no. Not only no, but "hell no!". ;-) That's the way we got all that annoying stuff you have to click away during installation and then at your first login. It always started like that: Some people not finding it right away (but OTOH also not giving it a real hard try). Look at what stuff we already have that nobody (well, make that "very few", but usually "very few who have the authority to make us") wants to see. Let's take a small tour through current and recent releases we made - just a very random selection: - License agreement at installation start. Yuck. But the lawyers demand it. There must be some old lady who once in the course of this universe couldn't find it right away and then died of sorrow or desparation. ;-) - Media check. Come on. My CD / DVD buring software can do that a lot better, and at a much more appropriate time. - Time zone selection. Interesting for users who happen to install in Thai language on their way to Vladivostok, but just annoying for all those people whose location we can easily deduce from the language they selected. German, Czech, Swedish - time zone unique (unless they are on that train to Vladivostok, too). English is harder, agreed. Some other languages, too. But for most languages there is little question. - Release notes. Well, I might be interested in them after I have my installation done and everything works as expected (including the good MPlayer etc.), but certainly not bang in the middle of all that. - YaST control center. Yes, it's been a while, but we were made to force-press that thing upon the poor user at the end of the installation, too. It was broken for a long time, yet nobody complained. Must be quite some crowd out there using that thing. ;-) - Novell customer center (during registration). Well, marketing. - SuSE greeter. Do we still have it? Well, I guess so - when you don't recycle an existing home directory. It also used to have no window title bar etc. so you really had to hunt that icon down to get rid of it. Gah, gimme a break. - KDE tip windows on startup on every program. WTF?! When I open a "konsole" (the KDE xterm) I don't want to be bothered with that stuff. I want to issue some commands, and probably not just for fun. Get that thing out of my face. And now let's think again about documentation or anything else being force-pressed upon the user... ;-) CU -- Stefan Hundhammer <sh@suse.de> Penguin by conviction. YaST2 Development SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Nürnberg, Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Stefan Hundhammer wrote:
On Tuesday 05 February 2008 15:30, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
you're right that the box is smaller than before but the manuals you're asking for are available as PDFs on the media. ...
They need to be presented to the new user at first boot up.
Well, no. Not only no, but "hell no!". ;-)
Put the crack pipe down.
That's the way we got all that annoying stuff you have to click away during installation and then at your first login. It always started like that: Some people not finding it right away (but OTOH also not giving it a real hard try).
So when do you propose to inform people who are NEW to SuSE (especially those who have just switched from Windows).... 5 months after installation???? This may be annoying for you, the experienced user, but it's not about YOU..it's about the INEXPERIENCED USER who is *lost*... doesn't know what the "man" command is, has never heard of "info" either, and seriously needs something BLATANTLY IN HIS FACE to show him where to go to find answers. To the newbie, that's not annoying, it's FRIENDLY.
Look at what stuff we already have that nobody (well, make that "very few", but usually "very few who have the authority to make us") wants to see. Let's take a small tour through current and recent releases we made - just a very random selection:
- License agreement at installation start. Yuck. But the lawyers demand it.
Because the law does.
There must be some old lady who once in the course of this universe couldn't find it right away and then died of sorrow or desparation. ;-)
You're saying that the license agreement should be queried AFTER installation?
- Media check. Come on. My CD / DVD buring software can do that a lot better, and at a much more appropriate time.
When it comes to detecting errors on an installation disk, which "much more appropriate time" do you mean, precisely? I certainly do NOT want to waste *MY* time going through the software selections (which usually takes me about 2 hours) only to find out AFTER the installation that there are detectable errors on the installation media. Sure it takes time.. SO WHAT? I want to know IMMEDIATELY if there is an error on that DVD *BEFORE* I waste a bunch of time going through all the steps of doing an installation. And if I already know that the DVD is good, I can just *SKIP* the media check by clicking "no" to the question of whether I want to check the media or not.
- Time zone selection. Interesting for users who happen to install in Thai language on their way to Vladivostok, but just annoying for all those people whose location we can easily deduce from the language they selected. German, Czech, Swedish - time zone unique (unless they are on that train to Vladivostok, too). English is harder, agreed. Some other languages, too. But for most languages there is little question.
So when I was doing an English language installation while in Iraq, I'm just screwed, eh. Time zone selection takes minimal amount of time, and yes, it SHOULD be done at the beginning. Any other time is even less appropriate. English-language users are in a tremendous number of time zones - 6 or 7 in North America alone.
- Release notes. Well, I might be interested in them after I have my installation done and everything works as expected (including the good MPlayer etc.), but certainly not bang in the middle of all that.
I agree there. In fact, relevant release notes (i.e to that software which is actually installed) should all be linked into a directory (like /root/release-notes). The installer already knows where they are (that's how they're put up on the screen)...but frankly, they flash by too quickly to be useful. By the time I've seen them all, I barely remember 5% of what was shown.
- YaST control center. Yes, it's been a while, but we were made to force-press that thing upon the poor user at the end of the installation, too. It was broken for a long time, yet nobody complained. Must be quite some crowd out there using that thing. ;-)
I've noticed problems since 10.0. And instead of fixing it, you guys seem more interested in changing the appearance. Misplaced priority, if you ask me.
- Novell customer center (during registration). Well, marketing.
- SuSE greeter. Do we still have it? Well, I guess so - when you don't recycle an existing home directory. It also used to have no window title bar etc. so you really had to hunt that icon down to get rid of it. Gah, gimme a break.
/home should be on a separate partition by default, (and by default NOT re-formatted) so that /home is recycled
- KDE tip windows on startup on every program. WTF?! When I open a "konsole" (the KDE xterm) I don't want to be bothered with that stuff. I want to issue some commands, and probably not just for fun. Get that thing out of my face.
Then click "do not show me again" or whatever it is, and stop whining. That's what I did, and you can, too.
And now let's think again about documentation or anything else being force-pressed upon the user... ;-)
I cannot fathom your mindset, when it's the onus is on the vendor to make things easier for the newbie user.
CU
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On 06/02/2008, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis00@hotpop.com> wrote:
That's the way we got all that annoying stuff you have to click away during installation and then at your first login. It always started like that: Some people not finding it right away (but OTOH also not giving it a real hard try).
So when do you propose to inform people who are NEW to SuSE (especially those who have just switched from Windows).... 5 months after installation????
This may be annoying for you, the experienced user, but it's not about YOU..it's about the INEXPERIENCED USER who is *lost*... doesn't know what the "man" command is, has never heard of "info" either, and seriously needs something BLATANTLY IN HIS FACE to show him where to go to find answers.
To the newbie, that's not annoying, it's FRIENDLY.
We already have an "Online help" icon on the desktop already. While this has been a complete failure due to other problems that we won't go into here, the solution is not having Yet another annoying popup on login. Have you actually watched inexperienced users using new software? The popups first alarm them "What did I do wrong", then they worry "Is it safe for me to close this?" finally getting rid of it, without actually understanding the content. Popups on application start have all but disappeared from commercial software because they don't work. The information they generally contain tends to be either something like advanced like keyboard shortcuts that you could look up, or something that should be simple but is in fact hidden in the interface, highlighting a problem in the user interface design. The "ktip" style popups are completely context insensitive, meaning they are an interruption to the user's task. Making it easier for people to accomplish their tasks and find help when they get stuck is important, I disagree that throwing popups at them will solve anything.
I've noticed problems since 10.0. And instead of fixing it, you guys seem more interested in changing the appearance.
Misplaced priority, if you ask me.
Links to your bug reports?
- KDE tip windows on startup on every program. WTF?! When I open a "konsole" (the KDE xterm) I don't want to be bothered with that stuff. I want to issue some commands, and probably not just for fun. Get that thing out of my face.
Then click "do not show me again" or whatever it is, and stop whining. That's what I did, and you can, too.
These have to be clicked on every new programme, which gets tedious, and in my experience fairly useless at imparting useful information to new users.
And now let's think again about documentation or anything else being force-pressed upon the user... ;-)
I cannot fathom your mindset, when it's the onus is on the vendor to make things easier for the newbie user.
Making it easier is indeed important, which is why it is important to do it properly, not just "this seems like a good idea, let's add it". If there were popups for everything someone thought users should know it would be a complete mess. -- Benjamin Weber -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Benji Weber a écrit :
Making it easier is indeed important, which is why it is important to do it properly, not just "this seems like a good idea, let's add it". If there were popups for everything someone thought users should know it would be a complete mess.
popups are not needed (nor wished), but remember we have info screens during install of any program through YaST. Most experimented people (that mean me :-)) usually switch to the more informative screen giving the list of sw dl, but the default is infos. *this* part is often misuderstood. I've seen time ago, a programm with some kind of tetris, here, and that had many succes in my vicinity (some people grinned not to have it anymore after the install :-)), but without making such thing, we couls use this time to give usefull infos. however this is a difficult task, most user don't want to see anything, only some wants something and not all the same one. so this must be very well studied should be * attractive to glue the user in front of it * informative and usefull * entertaining, if possible for example any Q&A system with solutions... whatever you want, possibly different each time (like the "chrstmas pudding/pinguin") jdd -- http://www.dodin.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Thursday 07 February 2008, Benji Weber wrote:
On 06/02/2008, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis00@hotpop.com> wrote:
That's the way we got all that annoying stuff you have
-snip-
To the newbie, that's not annoying, it's FRIENDLY.
We already have an "Online help" icon on the desktop already. While this has been a complete failure due to other problems that we won't go into here, the solution is not having Yet another annoying popup on login. Don't know why it should be a "complete failure" but in regards of Documentation and the different channels of communication it gives IMO an easy access for newbies. If needed we might list the manuals first and not as now as third thing. And I second the opinion against Yet another popup. Michael Have you actually watched inexperienced users using new software? The popups first alarm them "What did I do wrong", then they worry "Is it safe for me to close this?" finally getting rid of it, without actually understanding the content.
Popups on application start have all but disappeared from commercial software because they don't work. The information they generally contain tends to be either something like advanced like keyboard shortcuts that you could look up, or something that should be simple but is in fact hidden in the interface, highlighting a problem in the user interface design. The "ktip" style popups are completely context insensitive, meaning they are an interruption to the user's task.
Making it easier for people to accomplish their tasks and find help when they get stuck is important, I disagree that throwing popups at them will solve anything.
I've noticed problems since 10.0. And instead of fixing it, you guys seem more interested in changing the appearance.
Misplaced priority, if you ask me.
Links to your bug reports?
- KDE tip windows on startup on every program. WTF?! When
I open a "konsole" (the KDE xterm) I don't want to be bothered with that stuff. I want to issue some commands, and probably not just for fun. Get that thing out of my face.
Then click "do not show me again" or whatever it is, and stop whining. That's what I did, and you can, too.
These have to be clicked on every new programme, which gets tedious, and in my experience fairly useless at imparting useful information to new users.
And now let's think again about documentation or anything
else being force-pressed upon the user... ;-)
I cannot fathom your mindset, when it's the onus is on the vendor to make things easier for the newbie user.
Making it easier is indeed important, which is why it is important to do it properly, not just "this seems like a good idea, let's add it". If there were popups for everything someone thought users should know it would be a complete mess.
-- Benjamin Weber
-- Michael Löffler, Product Management SUSE LINUX Products GmbH - Nürnberg - AG Nürnberg - HRB 16746 - GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 07/02/2008, Michael Loeffler <michl@novell.com> wrote:
Don't know why it should be a "complete failure" but in regards of Documentation and the different channels of communication it gives IMO an easy access for newbies. If needed we might list the manuals first and not as now as third thing.
Well if you insist. We have had no evidence of a single person finding the IRC channel via the help link on the desktop. I have been regularly asking a number of those who have joined the channel and seem less familiar with IRC whether they came via help.opensuse.org. I have not yet had anyone who say they have. Nor have we seen a great increase in people in the channel since 10.3. Of the interactive support methods mentioned on help.opensuse.org IRC has the lowest barrier to entry, no registration or subscription required. As for why this is I wouldn't like to say without some figures. Hypothesis 1 - People don't notice the icon on the desktop, or don't think it's important. This can only be confirmed or contradicted by study or feedback. Some of the reviews of 10.3 criticised us for having too many icons on the desktop, perhaps users are not seeing it amid the others. Hypothesis 2 - People do investigate the icon on the desktop but get lost somewhere between help.opensuse.org and IRC/Forum/List. This could be supported by a large number of hits on help.opensuse.org, which I expect someone could provide statistics on. If I were to guess I would go with this one, due to the design of h.o.o it is 3 clicks from the desktop to connect to IRC. Furthermore the help options are fairly small on the left, and even on the IRC page itself the connect link isn't immediately obvious as it is just a normal textual link and there are 7 others on that page. Most of these issues were caused by the shoehorning of help.opensuse.org into the *.o.o website template. Originally it was intended to be a very simple design similar to the susegreeter, but started on demand rather than automatically. It was decided to develop as a static website rather than a Qt app so as to make it easier to develop/modify/translate while not being strictly tied to the distribution release cycle. This then led to having to comply with the website design intended for the real websites which was not really suited to the help.opensuse.org concept. However, without more data we can't really make a conclusion. We can certainly do things differently if we know at what stage the process is failing. For example we can have rich content embedded into the desktop itself more easily with KDE4 & plasma. -- Benjamin Weber -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Benji Weber a écrit :
Hypothesis 2 - People do investigate the icon on the desktop but get lost somewhere between help.opensuse.org and IRC/Forum/List.
my ISP uses a chat room for Hot line, but it's not IRC, but a web based chat, available at any time (7/7, 24/24) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Benji Weber:
Hypothesis 1 - People don't notice the icon on the desktop, or don't think it's important.
In my case more like "People don't get the icon in the first place" (Fresh install, old /home and user account) Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 07/02/2008, Wolfgang Woehl <tito@rumford.de> wrote:
Benji Weber:
Hypothesis 1 - People don't notice the icon on the desktop, or don't think it's important.
In my case more like "People don't get the icon in the first place" (Fresh install, old /home and user account)
Ok, that's a third case I hadn't considered, although I'm not sure people who have a working existing install and have managed to upgrade are the same people who would benefit from help.opensuse.org. -- Benjamin Weber -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Regarding those against another pop up, we could just incorporate it into the SUSE Greeter, which is available from KDE and GNOME. Kevin "Yo" Dupuy Yo.media -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Thursday 07 February 2008 04:36:09 am Benji Weber wrote:
On 06/02/2008, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis00@hotpop.com> wrote:
.......<snip a whole bunch>,,,,
I cannot fathom your mindset, when it's the onus is on the vendor to make things easier for the newbie user.
Making it easier is indeed important, which is why it is important to do it properly
OK, we all agree on that.
, not just "this seems like a good idea, let's add it". If there were popups for everything someone thought users should know it would be a complete mess.
You're probably rignt on that Benjamin. Sooo...What do we do about that. Ignore it?? The present way certainly doesn't work. The old way worked. Boxed sets and printed manuals. Did for me, many years ago. Bob S -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Wednesday 06 February 2008 20:51, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
They need to be presented to the new user at first boot up.
Well, no. Not only no, but "hell no!". ;-)
Put the crack pipe down.
Try to discuss like a grown-up person. Thank you.
So when do you propose to inform people who are NEW to SuSE (especially those who have just switched from Windows).... 5 months after installation????
This may be annoying for you, the experienced user, but it's not about YOU..it's about the INEXPERIENCED USER who is *lost*... doesn't know what the "man" command is, has never heard of "info" either, and seriously needs something BLATANTLY IN HIS FACE to show him where to go to find answers.
Any you want to show him all that in one pop-up during installation? That's an ambitious objective. I certainly like our manuals, but they are not a substitute for some willingness to learn. Did your car come with a manual trying to teach you how to drive?
To the newbie, that's not annoying, it's FRIENDLY.
No, it's not. I've been working on that installation stuff for years. I've come across all kinds of users. We did all kinds of tests with newbies, even with computer illiterates, and of course also with what we consider "average" users. When you are new to an OS, the first obstacle you have to come across is to get it installed so you can start experimenting. This is why the installation experience is so important. The more complicated we make this for the user, the more potential for trouble we create. So we try to make it simple, to figure out stuff automatically whenever we can, to make useful suggestions, not to ask questions the user cannot really answer. Yet at the same time, we always try to keep the door open for more advanced users - we provide "expert" and "details" buttons and dialogs wherever possible. So that installation workflow is really a very delicate balance. This is not to say the installation is already perfect, much less perfect for everyone. It's a permanently ongoing effort to improve it. (OTOH those who know what it was like in the pre-6.3 days know that Linux installations have come a long way.) Yes, we would also prefer everybody to have the printed manuals. And to read them, preferably BEFORE the installation. But for economic necessities this no longer seems to be possible. That's bad. But even worse would be to not have a consumer and/or community distro at all any more (and I know some people around here who put in a lot of their heart blood to prevent just that). So the compromise was to make the printed manuals thinner and save on production cost. Yet, the content is still there - just no longer completely in printed form. Is a PDF an adequate substitute for a printed manual? Well, certainly not for me. And as this discussion shows, also not for many others. Would it improve the situation to tell the user where those PDFs are? Would that really make so many more users read them? And if so, when would they read them? Imagine the situation. You just got new software installed. It's new, you are eager to try it out. You heard so much about it, now you want to see it for real. You install it. You log in. You try to make sense of everything - everything is new to you. Is that the situation where you open a PDF reader to read the manuals? Or don't you rather start clicking to see with your own eyes what's happening? I can only speak for myself, but whenever I am in that kind of situation, I am barely patient enough to read a one-page "quick start" guide. I experiment.
- License agreement at installation start. Yuck. But the lawyers demand it.
Because the law does.
Not quite. There is no law saying "you must present a license agreement". But there are lawyers who convince you that you might lose a lawsuit if you don't. Anyway, this point is moot - we simply have to do it.
I certainly do NOT want to waste *MY* time going through the software selections (which usually takes me about 2 hours) only to find out AFTER the installation that there are detectable errors on the installation media.
So you don't check MD5SUMs when you burned a downloaded ISO?
- Time zone selection. Interesting for users who happen to
install in Thai language on their way to Vladivostok, but just annoying for all those people whose location we can easily deduce from the language they selected. German,
Czech, Swedish - time zone unique (unless they are on that
train to Vladivostok, too). English is harder, agreed. Some other languages, too. But for most languages there is little question.
So when I was doing an English language installation while in Iraq, I'm just screwed, eh.
You didn't read thoroughly. For English, of course we'd always have to ask. But not for those many languages where the result is clear. And it's not as if you couldn't change it if the automatic didn't guess right; it's only one mouse click away in the installation proposal dialog.
Time zone selection takes minimal amount of time, and yes, it SHOULD be done at the beginning. Any other time is even less appropriate.
English-language users are in a tremendous number of time zones - 6 or 7 in North America alone.
See above.
- YaST control center. Yes, it's been a while, but we were made to force-press that thing upon the poor user at the end of the installation, too. It was broken for a long time, yet nobody complained. Must be quite some crowd out there using that thing. ;-)
I've noticed problems since 10.0. And instead of fixing it, you guys seem more interested in changing the appearance.
Instead of fixing a buggy presentation of a program at an entirely inappropriate time? And it's not about changing the appearance what we are about to do. Read the Wiki pages. It's about making it _usable_ again after it has lost its usefulness with the appearance of more and more modules over all the years.
Misplaced priority, if you ask me.
Rather, misinformed discussion partner. ;-)
- SuSE greeter. Do we still have it? Well, I guess so - when you don't recycle an existing home directory. It also used to have no window title bar etc. so you really had to hunt that icon down to get rid of it. Gah, gimme a break.
/home should be on a separate partition by default, (and by default NOT re-formatted) so that /home is recycled
IIRC that's how it has been for the last couple of releases. But then, I am not 100% sure since I rarely change my partitioning when I reinstall - I simply select mount points.
- KDE tip windows on startup on every program. WTF?! When I open a "konsole" (the KDE xterm) I don't want to be bothered with that stuff. I want to issue some commands, and probably not just for fun. Get that thing out of my face.
Then click "do not show me again" or whatever it is, and stop whining. That's what I did, and you can, too.
You missed the point. This is another example of surprising the user with something completely unrelated and throwing him out of his path. Too many pop-ups are a way of reducing the user's overall attention to those that are really important. CU -- Stefan Hundhammer <sh@suse.de> Penguin by conviction. YaST2 Development SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Nürnberg, Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Hi, On Donnerstag 07 Februar 2008, Stefan Hundhammer wrote:
[...] Would that really make so many more users read them? And if so, when would they read them?
Just to add some thoughts about that: From my experience we don't get that much bug reports for documentation (if at all) from the community. Well, either our documentation doesn't contain any errors (which I doubt) or it is of minor importance for most. ;) Even in magazins when they test our distribution, they barely look into our documentation or even rate it. Some tests don't mention it at all. So it seems that either users don't know or don't care. :) I remember a poll few years ago which also asked about our documentation. The answers showed that documentation was considered important but it was not important to have a printed manual. I don't know the exact numbers, but that's rougly the trend that we are facing now. Tom -- Thomas Schraitle ---------------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX GmbH >o) Documentation Specialist Maxfeldstrasse 5 /\\ 90409 Nuernberg _\_v http://en.opensuse.org/Documentation_Team http://developer.novell.com/wiki/index.php/Lessons_for_Lizards --------------------------------------------------------------------- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Thomas Schraitle wrote:
Hi,
On Donnerstag 07 Februar 2008, Stefan Hundhammer wrote:
[...] Would that really make so many more users read them? And if so, when would they read them?
Just to add some thoughts about that: From my experience we don't get that much bug reports for documentation (if at all) from the community. Well, either our documentation doesn't contain any errors (which I doubt) or it is of minor importance for most. ;)
Even in magazins when they test our distribution, they barely look into our documentation or even rate it. Some tests don't mention it at all. So it seems that either users don't know or don't care. :)
Or alternatively, they're just not finding it. People don't comment on the quality of something that they don't even know exists.
I remember a poll few years ago which also asked about our documentation. The answers showed that documentation was considered important but it was not important to have a printed manual. I don't know the exact numbers, but that's rougly the trend that we are facing now.
I would agree with that sentiment completely. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Thomas Schraitle a écrit :
documentation doesn't contain any errors (which I doubt) or it is of minor importance for most. ;)
no, but it's almost impossible to fix a printed book :-) and the next one is different, so fixing it is not possible either...
know the exact numbers, but that's rougly the trend that we are facing now.
may be you don't poll the low band users... jdd -- http://www.dodin.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Hi, On Donnerstag, 7. Februar 2008, jdd wrote:
Thomas Schraitle a écrit :
documentation doesn't contain any errors (which I doubt) or it is of minor importance for most. ;)
no, but it's almost impossible to fix a printed book :-) and the next one is different, so fixing it is not possible either...
Beginners usually don't fix book -- they just want their problems solved. But you're right, a printed book can't be corrected later. ;)
know the exact numbers, but that's rougly the trend that we are facing now.
may be you don't poll the low band users...
*I* did nothing, it was done by marketing. :) So I can't comment on the method they used. Tom -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH >o) Maxfeldstrasse 5 /\\ Documentation Specialist 90409 Nuernberg, Germany _\_v http://en.opensuse.org/Documentation_Team SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Thomas Schraitle a écrit :
may be you don't poll the low band users...
*I* did nothing, it was done by marketing. :) So I can't comment on the method they used.
of course :-) but most high band adsl users take they doc on the web (google is incredibly god), but how can the others do? and it's yet a grat part of the world I even know many (really many!!) that can't absolutely not read in english, when printing a book in any of the wiki langages would cost an eye... jdd -- http://www.dodin.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, 2008-02-07 at 17:32 +0100, jdd wrote:
Thomas Schraitle a écrit :
documentation doesn't contain any errors (which I doubt) or it is of minor importance for most. ;)
no, but it's almost impossible to fix a printed book :-) and the next one is different, so fixing it is not possible either...
Well, it depends.... Some time ago i send a bug report to the guys from QNX. A lot of nice features were not working as extensively described in their manuals.... A month later a got a update from Canada: Not new software, but a new set of manuals in which they removed all the pages I referenced. One way of "resolving issues". -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Hans Witvliet wrote:
On Thu, 2008-02-07 at 17:32 +0100, jdd wrote:
Thomas Schraitle a écrit :
documentation doesn't contain any errors (which I doubt) or it is of minor importance for most. ;)
no, but it's almost impossible to fix a printed book :-) and the next one is different, so fixing it is not possible either...
Well, it depends....
Some time ago i send a bug report to the guys from QNX. A lot of nice features were not working as extensively described in their manuals....
A month later a got a update from Canada: Not new software, but a new set of manuals in which they removed all the pages I referenced.
One way of "resolving issues".
That sounds like the Microsoft way of fixing the problems with their OOXML "standard". -- Use OpenOffice.org <http://www.openoffice.org> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Thursday 07 February 2008, Thomas Schraitle wrote:
Hi,
On Donnerstag 07 Februar 2008, Stefan Hundhammer wrote:
[...] Would that really make so many more users read them? And if so, when would they read them?
Just to add some thoughts about that: From my experience we don't get that much bug reports for documentation (if at all) from the community. Well, either our documentation doesn't contain any errors (which I doubt) or it is of minor importance for most. ;)
Even in magazins when they test our distribution, they barely look into our documentation or even rate it. Some tests don't mention it at all. So it seems that either users don't know or don't care. :)
I remember a poll few years ago which also asked about our documentation. The answers showed that documentation was considered important but it was not important to have a printed manual. I don't know the exact numbers, but that's rougly the trend that we are facing now. In the customer surveys we do we ask always the importance of different things (e.g. software amount, stability, security, support etc.) and in these surveys over years manuals are always rated in the lowest third of importance. M
Tom
-- Thomas Schraitle
---------------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX GmbH >o) Documentation Specialist Maxfeldstrasse 5 /\\ 90409 Nuernberg _\_v http://en.opensuse.org/Documentation_Team http://developer.novell.com/wiki/index.php/Lessons_for_Lizards ---------------------------------------------------------------------
-- Michael Löffler, Product Management SUSE LINUX Products GmbH - Nürnberg - AG Nürnberg - HRB 16746 - GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Stefan Hundhammer wrote:
On Wednesday 06 February 2008 20:51, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
They need to be presented to the new user at first boot up. Well, no. Not only no, but "hell no!". ;-) Put the crack pipe down.
Try to discuss like a grown-up person. Thank you.
So when do you propose to inform people who are NEW to SuSE (especially those who have just switched from Windows).... 5 months after installation????
This may be annoying for you, the experienced user, but it's not about YOU..it's about the INEXPERIENCED USER who is *lost*... doesn't know what the "man" command is, has never heard of "info" either, and seriously needs something BLATANTLY IN HIS FACE to show him where to go to find answers.
Any you want to show him all that in one pop-up during installation? That's an ambitious objective. I certainly like our manuals, but they are not a substitute for some willingness to learn.
Not a popup. Something USEFUL, like having SuSE Help Center running by default (until the user chooses to no longer have it running by default), as a reminder that REAL help (as opposed to windows-style "Bold text: click the bold text button to make text bold" non-help).
Did your car come with a manual trying to teach you how to drive?
I can go anyplace and find a driver's education school. I can also find numerous places to find out how to use not only windows, but even how to use a particular PROGRAM in Windows -- ridiculous, but true. There are *NO* "learn to use Linux" classes in most places, unless one is willing to spend several hundred dollars or more for a systems admin course to get certification to show a potential employer. The typical Linux newbie does NOT want to spend $500 to learn how to use an OS.
To the newbie, that's not annoying, it's FRIENDLY.
No, it's not. I've been working on that installation stuff for years. I've come across all kinds of users. We did all kinds of tests with newbies, even with computer illiterates, and of course also with what we consider "average" users.
When you are new to an OS, the first obstacle you have to come across is to get it installed so you can start experimenting. This is why the installation experience is so important. The more complicated we make this for the user, the more potential for trouble we create. So we try to make it simple, to figure out stuff automatically whenever we can, to make useful suggestions, not to ask questions the user cannot really answer. Yet at the same time, we always try to keep the door open for more advanced users - we provide "expert" and "details" buttons and dialogs wherever possible. So that installation workflow is really a very delicate balance.
This is not to say the installation is already perfect, much less perfect for everyone. It's a permanently ongoing effort to improve it. (OTOH those who know what it was like in the pre-6.3 days know that Linux installations have come a long way.)
Yes, we would also prefer everybody to have the printed manuals. And to read them, preferably BEFORE the installation. But for economic necessities this
Which is why I advocate the Boxed editions, which have been nixed in favor of this download thing. Now you have a problem... the newbie users DOES NOT HAVE ANY PRINTED MANUALS... and doesn't have the slightest clue how to find the sort of information normally contained in them.
no longer seems to be possible. That's bad. But even worse would be to not have a consumer and/or community distro at all any more (and I know some people around here who put in a lot of their heart blood to prevent just that). So the compromise was to make the printed manuals thinner and save on production cost. Yet, the content is still there - just no longer completely in printed form.
Is a PDF an adequate substitute for a printed manual? Well, certainly not for me. And as this discussion shows, also not for many others.
Again, if the new user doesn't know that the PDF is there, what good is it? It needs to be pointed out to the user that the PDF exists.
Would it improve the situation to tell the user where those PDFs are?
Would it hurt?
Would that really make so many more users read them?
You can't force users to do anything.
And if so, when would they read them?
I can guarantee that if they don't know where the PDF's are then they will never read them. And if the they don't even know they exist, they won't even look for them (not that the new user particularly knows HOW to look for them in the first place. You and I know how to use locate and grep and find..but by definition, newbies don't.)
Imagine the situation. You just got new software installed. It's new, you are eager to try it out. You heard so much about it, now you want to see it for real. You install it. You log in. You try to make sense of everything - everything is new to you.
And there's a NICE FRIENDLY MANUAL ON THE DESKTOP IN CASE YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS.....
Is that the situation where you open a PDF reader to read the manuals?
Probably not...but if it's already OPENED UP TO THE INTRODUCTORY DOCUMENT, then the user is being taught such resources are there on the system, available at any time.
Or don't you rather start clicking to see with your own eyes what's happening?
I can only speak for myself, but whenever I am in that kind of situation, I am barely patient enough to read a one-page "quick start" guide. I experiment.
And you and I both are far more technically proficient, AND CONFIDENT, than the typical user on a system they've never used before.
- License agreement at installation start. Yuck. But the lawyers demand it. Because the law does.
Not quite. There is no law saying "you must present a license agreement". But there are lawyers who convince you that you might lose a lawsuit if you don't.
But if you don't, then it can lead to legal hot water rather quickly.
Anyway, this point is moot - we simply have to do it.
Exactly.
I certainly do NOT want to waste *MY* time going through the software selections (which usually takes me about 2 hours) only to find out AFTER the installation that there are detectable errors on the installation media.
So you don't check MD5SUMs when you burned a downloaded ISO?
Just because my .iso file is flawless doesn't mean that the DVD produced from it is flawless too. I've had PRESSED CD's and DVD's with errors on them. You think I'm going to gonna automatically trust a burned CD or DVD to be perfect? There's dust and all kinds of things that can ruin what APPEARS to be a good CD or DVD..but the only way to know for sure is to do an MD5SUM or some other sort of comprehensive check on it.
- Time zone selection. Interesting for users who happen to
install in Thai language on their way to Vladivostok, but just annoying for all those people whose location we can easily deduce from the language they selected. German, Czech, Swedish - time zone unique (unless they are on that
train to Vladivostok, too). English is harder, agreed. Some other languages, too. But for most languages there is little question.
So when I was doing an English language installation while in Iraq, I'm just screwed, eh.
You didn't read thoroughly. For English, of course we'd always have to ask. But not for those many languages where the result is clear. And it's not as if you couldn't change it if the automatic didn't guess right; it's only one mouse click away in the installation proposal dialog.
Personally, after the langauge is selected, I would set up the time zone based on the language for SOME languages (the ones where the native speakers tend to be limited to one time zone) and then proceed to the time-zone selection to VERIFY that it's the correct time zone. If it's correct, then just click "next"
Time zone selection takes minimal amount of time, and yes, it SHOULD be done at the beginning. Any other time is even less appropriate.
English-language users are in a tremendous number of time zones - 6 or 7 in North America alone.
See above.
- YaST control center. Yes, it's been a while, but we were made to force-press that thing upon the poor user at the end of the installation, too. It was broken for a long time, yet nobody complained. Must be quite some crowd out there using that thing. ;-)
I've noticed problems since 10.0. And instead of fixing it, you guys seem more interested in changing the appearance.
Instead of fixing a buggy presentation of a program at an entirely inappropriate time?
And it's not about changing the appearance what we are about to do. Read the Wiki pages. It's about making it _usable_ again after it has lost its usefulness with the appearance of more and more modules over all the years.
Misplaced priority, if you ask me.
Rather, misinformed discussion partner. ;-)
- SuSE greeter. Do we still have it? Well, I guess so - when you don't recycle an existing home directory. It also used to have no window title bar etc. so you really had to hunt that icon down to get rid of it. Gah, gimme a break.
/home should be on a separate partition by default, (and by default NOT re-formatted) so that /home is recycled
IIRC that's how it has been for the last couple of releases. But then, I am not 100% sure since I rarely change my partitioning when I reinstall - I simply select mount points.
- KDE tip windows on startup on every program. WTF?! When I open a "konsole" (the KDE xterm) I don't want to be bothered with that stuff. I want to issue some commands, and probably not just for fun. Get that thing out of my face.
Then click "do not show me again" or whatever it is, and stop whining. That's what I did, and you can, too.
You missed the point. This is another example of surprising the user with something completely unrelated and throwing him out of his path. Too many pop-ups are a way of reducing the user's overall attention to those that are really important.
But I'm not advocating KDE style popups every time a new app is started.
CU
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On Tue, 2008-02-05 at 08:09 +0100, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
Kevin,
you're right that the box is smaller than before but the manuals you're asking for are available as PDFs on the media. We do not have the box anymore in most of the stores. This is indeed a lost marketing way but this is both a result of a changing environment where many more users prefer to download for free (I know there are others) instead of willing to pay the box price - and a different company that does not go aggressively into the stores. We had a hard time pushing the box on the shelves in the end - and even where it is still today, you see far smaller numbers:-(
Andreas
Hey Andreas, First off, regarding the documentation, I am glad that the PDFs are offered, what I was referring to was to reorganize the Start Up guide, which is printed in the box, to include short tours of the desktop environments in the printed manual. I think there are enough new users that would be interested in paying a relatively small fee (under $100USD) and getting a good boxed edition (meaning the printed manual I spoke of above, the full system, possibly with legal codecs in the system for paying customers, and just some small cheap openSUSE stickers or decals). As far as the different company (I'm assuming you're referring to Novell here, correct me if I'm wrong) well, that's a problem that I suppose will always be there. Thanks, -- Kevin "Yo" Dupuy | Public Mail <kevin@kevinsword.com> Hope for America: Ron Paul for President. www.RonPaul2008.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Kevin Dupuy wrote:
On Tue, 2008-02-05 at 08:09 +0100, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
Kevin,
you're right that the box is smaller than before but the manuals you're asking for are available as PDFs on the media. We do not have the box anymore in most of the stores. This is indeed a lost marketing way but this is both a result of a changing environment where many more users prefer to download for free (I know there are others) instead of willing to pay the box price - and a different company that does not go aggressively into the stores. We had a hard time pushing the box on the shelves in the end - and even where it is still today, you see far smaller numbers:-(
Andreas
Hey Andreas, First off, regarding the documentation, I am glad that the PDFs are offered, what I was referring to was to reorganize the Start Up guide, which is printed in the box, to include short tours of the desktop environments in the printed manual.
I think there are enough new users that would be interested in paying a relatively small fee (under $100USD) and getting a good boxed edition (meaning the printed manual I spoke of above, the full system, possibly with legal codecs in the system for paying customers, and just some small cheap openSUSE stickers or decals).
As far as the different company (I'm assuming you're referring to Novell here, correct me if I'm wrong) well, that's a problem that I suppose will always be there.
I couldn't say it better myself. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Feb 6, 2008 6:43 AM, Kevin Dupuy <kevindupuy@bellsouth.net> wrote:
On Tue, 2008-02-05 at 08:09 +0100, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
Kevin,
you're right that the box is smaller than before but the manuals you're asking for are available as PDFs on the media. We do not have the box anymore in most of the stores. This is indeed a lost marketing way but this is both a result of a changing environment where many more users prefer to download for free (I know there are others) instead of willing
Here in Australia, one of the most popular IT mags (Australian Personal Computer - APC) which is predominately Windows, but also does reasonable coverage of other OS's, often (nearly always) has at least one Linux distro, either as a live version or as an ISO, on their cover DVD. They also have at least one major article re Linux. They are fairly current as well, publishing versions fairly close to the actual release. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
John Bennett wrote:
On Feb 6, 2008 6:43 AM, Kevin Dupuy <kevindupuy@bellsouth.net> wrote:
On Tue, 2008-02-05 at 08:09 +0100, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
Kevin,
you're right that the box is smaller than before but the manuals you're asking for are available as PDFs on the media. We do not have the box anymore in most of the stores. This is indeed a lost marketing way but this is both a result of a changing environment where many more users prefer to download for free (I know there are others) instead of willing
Here in Australia, one of the most popular IT mags (Australian Personal Computer - APC) which is predominately Windows, but also does reasonable coverage of other OS's, often (nearly always) has at least one Linux distro, either as a live version or as an ISO, on their cover DVD. They also have at least one major article re Linux. They are fairly current as well, publishing versions fairly close to the actual release.
In the U.S., all of the "General computing" magazines are so heavily influenced by MS'es advertising dollars, that they editorially constrained from even mentioning MS'es competitors, other than to put them down (increasingly rare as MS'es competitors tend to get torpedoed one way or another...). The only way to get Linux in front of joe-average-user is to keep it on store shelves, or try to rely on the persuasion abilities of IT people. But remember...having a product ON THE SHELF gives the type of credibility that the typical MS user relies on. To them, box on the shelf = credible product, and "download" = crippleware products that want their credit card numbers. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Kevin,
you're right that the box is smaller than before but the manuals you're asking for are available as PDFs on the media. We do not have the box anymore in most of the stores. This is indeed a lost marketing way but this is both a result of a changing environment where many more users prefer to download for free (I know there are others) instead of willing to pay the box price - and a different company that does not go aggressively into the stores. We had a hard time pushing the box on the shelves in the end - and even where it is still today, you see far smaller numbers:-( I just can second this. With the distribution of broadband combined with the availibility of other Linux distributions for free download (Fedora, Ubuntu, Freespire etc.) the demand for a boxed version decreased significantly. So especially in North America we became more and more a niche product and brought in to little revenue for retail shops to keep us on the shelf. On the other hand with free download of openSUSE we achieve more users than
On Tuesday 05 February 2008, Andreas Jaeger wrote: prior to our free download offering. Additional we offer free PromoDVDs for multipliers (http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2008-01/msg00045.html) and we do covermounts in magazines. Michael
Andreas
-- Michael Löffler, Product Management SUSE LINUX Products GmbH - Nürnberg - AG Nürnberg - HRB 16746 - GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Michael Loeffler a écrit :
aggressively into the stores. We had a hard time pushing the box on the shelves in the end - and even where it is still today, you see far smaller numbers:-( I just can second this. With the distribution of broadband combined with the availibility of other
you are right. On my advice, selling the box is nearly impossible. The main reason is not what I have seen, but the fact than new distro come too fast and the box is too soon obsolete. So I think it would be much better to have the *manuals* sold, with inside a dvd. the life is much greater - the 10.1 french manual (the last french available one) is still usable - many manual customers don't worry really about the dvd... this could be first done by mail order, as a cheap try... through amazon, for example, for english manual jdd -- http://www.dodin.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Wednesday 2008-02-06 at 11:09 +0100, Michael Loeffler wrote:
I just can second this. With the distribution of broadband combined with the availibility of other Linux distributions for free download (Fedora, Ubuntu, Freespire etc.) the demand for a boxed version decreased significantly. So especially in North America we became more and more a niche product and brought in to little revenue for retail shops to keep us on the shelf.
Broadband is not universal, unfortunately. Sometimes I have to burn the dvd for friends that are still on modem, but the updates are impossible, at the current sizes. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHqbc8tTMYHG2NR9URAiOoAJwMkDsXQQ7QDuT6Q1Zv8Nh4umK7pACfQ6mm FKuB1eoytqZCg+8i/T6EGTY= =M5CJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Hi, On Montag 04 Februar 2008, Kevin Dupuy wrote:
[...]
The point was, not only did having the boxed editions in stores raise the visibility of SUSE, even though it cost money it was worth it. Many of you may wonder how the boxed editions are worth it now, when anyone can go onto openSUSE.org and download the full thing for free. Well, I do feel that openSUSE boxed has lost some worth. Primarily because the old boxed editions came with a good manual. I mean no disrespect to the team who produces the absolutely great documentation at openSUSE, but the printed Start-Up guide, in just from 10.0 -> 10.3 has lost a description of the desktop environments. The actual two desktops are no longer discussed in the printed manual! This is actually useful. especially in openSUSE since we make the user choose between environments at the install. The users could read through the book's description of KDE and GNOME and make their decision that way.
Well, as a member of the documentation team, maybe I can add some more information. :) It's true that there is no description of the desktop environments in the *printed* manuals anymore. However, there is a completely separate book about KDE[1] and GNOME[2] (around 300 pages). Do you know our Quickstart Manuals? For users who just want a small, concise overview, we created the Quickstart Manuals (12 pages) for KDE and GNOME, see [3,4]. As we generate our books for openSUSE and Enterprise products from mainly one source, it is not always easy to make a good selection. Restrictions like time, pages, wishes from PM, etc. force us to think carefully what should go into the printed manuals and what can we leave out. :-) Bye, Tom ---- References: [1] DVD:/docu/en/opensuse-kdeuser_en.pdf [2] DVD:/docu/en/opensuse-gnomeuser_en.pdf [3] DVD:/docu/en/opensuse-kdequick_en.pdf [4] DVD:/docu/en/opensuse-gnomequick_en.pdf -- Thomas Schraitle ---------------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX GmbH >o) Documentation Specialist Maxfeldstrasse 5 /\\ 90409 Nuernberg _\_v http://en.opensuse.org/Documentation_Team http://developer.novell.com/wiki/index.php/Lessons_for_Lizards --------------------------------------------------------------------- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tue February 5 2008 01:31:34 Thomas Schraitle wrote:
Well, as a member of the documentation team, maybe I can add some more information. :) It's true that there is no description of the desktop environments in the *printed* manuals anymore. However, there is a completely separate book about KDE[1] and GNOME[2] (around 300 pages).
Do you know our Quickstart Manuals? For users who just want a small, concise overview, we created the Quickstart Manuals (12 pages) for KDE and GNOME, see [3,4].
As we generate our books for openSUSE and Enterprise products from mainly one source, it is not always easy to make a good selection. Restrictions like time, pages, wishes from PM, etc. force us to think carefully what should go into the printed manuals and what can we leave out. :-)
Bye, Tom
---- References: [1] DVD:/docu/en/opensuse-kdeuser_en.pdf [2] DVD:/docu/en/opensuse-gnomeuser_en.pdf [3] DVD:/docu/en/opensuse-kdequick_en.pdf [4] DVD:/docu/en/opensuse-gnomequick_en.pdf
I just checked my 10.3 boxed DVD 1 and I only found the release notes under DVD:/docu/ It would be if they could easily be found by someone looking at the DVD on Windows. Are these manuals available anywhere after installation of 10.3? -- Carlos FL "It is not worth an intelligent man's time to be in the majority. By definition, there are already enough people to do that." - G. H. Hardy -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Hi, On Dienstag 05 Februar 2008, Carlos F. Lange wrote:
[...]
---- References: [1] DVD:/docu/en/opensuse-kdeuser_en.pdf [2] DVD:/docu/en/opensuse-gnomeuser_en.pdf [3] DVD:/docu/en/opensuse-kdequick_en.pdf [4] DVD:/docu/en/opensuse-gnomequick_en.pdf
I just checked my 10.3 boxed DVD 1 and I only found the release notes under DVD:/docu/
You right, I looked at the wrong place.
It would be if they could easily be found by someone looking at the DVD on Windows.
As far as I remember, we had this in former releases but had to remove the PDFs because they were too big.
Are these manuals available anywhere after installation of 10.3?
Search for the packages: * opensuse-manual_en * opensuse-manual_en-pdf * opensuse-gnomeuser_en * opensuse-gnomeuser_en-pdf The HTML version is accessible through the the help center. Bye, Tom -- Thomas Schraitle ---------------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX GmbH >o) Documentation Specialist Maxfeldstrasse 5 /\\ 90409 Nuernberg _\_v http://en.opensuse.org/Documentation_Team http://developer.novell.com/wiki/index.php/Lessons_for_Lizards --------------------------------------------------------------------- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Tuesday 2008-02-05 at 14:29 +0100, Thomas Schraitle wrote:
It would be if they could easily be found by someone looking at the DVD on Windows.
As far as I remember, we had this in former releases but had to remove the PDFs because they were too big.
Perhaps you should think of removing the rpm and reinstating the pdf. Then, let's have a small rpm with a script getting the pdf and installing it. Saves space. :-) - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHqHwAtTMYHG2NR9URAltQAJ4rWycQM3sUe7CuMhEd8uOgqMxLCACgmVmn pNO/IIUhjmZbz5ma0h8eXrI= =8Uaf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Thomas Schraitle wrote:
Hi,
On Montag 04 Februar 2008, Kevin Dupuy wrote:
[...]
The point was, not only did having the boxed editions in stores raise the visibility of SUSE, even though it cost money it was worth it. Many of you may wonder how the boxed editions are worth it now, when anyone can go onto openSUSE.org and download the full thing for free. Well, I do feel that openSUSE boxed has lost some worth. Primarily because the old boxed editions came with a good manual. I mean no disrespect to the team who produces the absolutely great documentation at openSUSE, but the printed Start-Up guide, in just from 10.0 -> 10.3 has lost a description of the desktop environments. The actual two desktops are no longer discussed in the printed manual! This is actually useful. especially in openSUSE since we make the user choose between environments at the install. The users could read through the book's description of KDE and GNOME and make their decision that way.
Well, as a member of the documentation team, maybe I can add some more information. :)
It's true that there is no description of the desktop environments in the *printed* manuals anymore. However, there is a completely separate book about KDE[1] and GNOME[2] (around 300 pages).
Do you know our Quickstart Manuals? For users who just want a small, concise overview, we created the Quickstart Manuals (12 pages) for KDE and GNOME, see [3,4].
As we generate our books for openSUSE and Enterprise products from mainly one source, it is not always easy to make a good selection. Restrictions like time, pages, wishes from PM, etc. force us to think carefully what should go into the printed manuals and what can we leave out. :-)
Writing this documentation is all very good, and commendable on your part, Tom. However..if the new user DOESN'T KNOW IT EXISTS, then it is almost as bad as not even existing. It needs to be not only "findable" to the new user -- it *MUST* be presented in a way that the new user CANNOT HELP BUT TO SEE THAT IT IS THERE.
Bye, Tom
---- References: [1] DVD:/docu/en/opensuse-kdeuser_en.pdf [2] DVD:/docu/en/opensuse-gnomeuser_en.pdf [3] DVD:/docu/en/opensuse-kdequick_en.pdf [4] DVD:/docu/en/opensuse-gnomequick_en.pdf
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
---- References: [1] DVD:/docu/en/opensuse-kdeuser_en.pdf (...)
may I say I made *hours* some days ago, finding them there? I looked first at rpms, yast (but only find there the html version) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Hi, On Dienstag 05 Februar 2008, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
[...] Writing this documentation is all very good, and commendable on your part, Tom.
However..if the new user DOESN'T KNOW IT EXISTS, then it is almost as bad as not even existing.
It needs to be not only "findable" to the new user -- it *MUST* be presented in a way that the new user CANNOT HELP BUT TO SEE THAT IT IS THERE.
Well, that's not our part, I'm sorry. We only write it. By the way: Did you know, the HTML documentation is accessible from the SUSE help center? :) Tom -- Thomas Schraitle ---------------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX GmbH >o) Documentation Specialist Maxfeldstrasse 5 /\\ 90409 Nuernberg _\_v http://en.opensuse.org/Documentation_Team http://developer.novell.com/wiki/index.php/Lessons_for_Lizards --------------------------------------------------------------------- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Thomas Schraitle wrote:
Hi,
On Dienstag 05 Februar 2008, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
[...] Writing this documentation is all very good, and commendable on your part, Tom.
However..if the new user DOESN'T KNOW IT EXISTS, then it is almost as bad as not even existing.
It needs to be not only "findable" to the new user -- it *MUST* be presented in a way that the new user CANNOT HELP BUT TO SEE THAT IT IS THERE.
Well, that's not our part, I'm sorry. We only write it.
Maybe not YOUR part, tom, but yes, it IS SuSE's part. If they're going to pay you to write documentation for new users, and then not work out a mechanism for new users to be (actively) notified the that documentation exists, then SuSe is *FAILING* the new user.
By the way: Did you know, the HTML documentation is accessible from the SUSE help center? :)
Personally, I went through several releases before discovering it. This may be because I had years of unix user and administration experienced beforehand, and didn't look as hard...or that, quite frankly, it's not presented very effectively to the new user -- a transitory mention on the screen during the middle of an installation -- most people don't wait around breathlessly watching these things -- if it's going to be 45-90 minutes before the installer needs any more input, most people go do something else -- like go to the store, or eat dinner or something. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Hi, On Mittwoch 06 Februar 2008, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
[...] If they're going to pay you to write documentation for new users, and then not work out a mechanism for new users to be (actively) notified the that documentation exists, then SuSe is *FAILING* the new user.
If you think it is important, create a Bugzilla entry.
[...]
Tom -- Thomas Schraitle ---------------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX GmbH >o) Documentation Specialist Maxfeldstrasse 5 /\\ 90409 Nuernberg _\_v http://en.opensuse.org/Documentation_Team http://developer.novell.com/wiki/index.php/Lessons_for_Lizards --------------------------------------------------------------------- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tue 05 February 08 08:28, Aaron Kulkis wrote: <snip>
Writing this documentation is all very good, and commendable on your part, Tom.
However..if the new user DOESN'T KNOW IT EXISTS, then it is almost as bad as not even existing.
It needs to be not only "findable" to the new user -- it *MUST* be presented in a way that the new user CANNOT HELP BUT TO SEE THAT IT IS THERE.
Something during the installation, lika a pop-up window that expressly tells the user to write down where the pdf's are and what they are would be a very good start, that way once the system is installed, the user can then go look at them and read them if s/he wants. -- "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin Religion - it's not just for breakfast anymore...murderers, dictators, child molesters and all other similar ilk use it daily too! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
JB2 wrote:
On Tue 05 February 08 08:28, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
<snip>
Writing this documentation is all very good, and commendable on your part, Tom.
However..if the new user DOESN'T KNOW IT EXISTS, then it is almost as bad as not even existing.
It needs to be not only "findable" to the new user -- it *MUST* be presented in a way that the new user CANNOT HELP BUT TO SEE THAT IT IS THERE.
Something during the installation, lika a pop-up window that expressly tells the user to write down where the pdf's are and what they are would be a very good start, that way once the system is installed, the user can then go look at them and read them if s/he wants.
If that sort of idea is used, it should be done with 1: "ATTENTION!" written in very BIG letters 2: Statement short enough to read on screen (no scrolling) 3: A mandatory click-button (similar to the that used with license agreements ... clicking a radio button to "I have read and COPIED the location" and a seperate "next" or "proceed with installation" button. However, none of this helps the newbie who needs advice or help concerning partitioning (and lets face it, the default partitioning STINKS). /home, /opt, /tmp, and /local should have their own filesystems.
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Feb 6, 2008 10:35 AM, JB2 <yonaton@localnet.com> wrote:
On Tue 05 February 08 08:28, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
<snip>
Writing this documentation is all very good, and commendable on your part, Tom.
However..if the new user DOESN'T KNOW IT EXISTS, then it is almost as bad as not even existing.
It needs to be not only "findable" to the new user -- it *MUST* be presented in a way that the new user CANNOT HELP BUT TO SEE THAT IT IS THERE.
Something during the installation, lika a pop-up window that expressly tells the user to write down where the pdf's are and what they are would be a very good start, that way once the system is installed, the user can then go look at them and read them if s/he wants.
Yeah, it's very useful to read the installation instructions _after_ you make the install. -- Svetoslav Milenov (Sunny) Even the most advanced equipment in the hands of the ignorant is just a pile of scrap. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Dear Aaron! I don't know what to add in substance but since you addressed me directly let me clear some things.
Do you realize how much of a complete ingrate you make yourself appear to be?
I don't claim a special version for me (or my buddies as you call them). All I said was that there are distributions with a longer life cycle. For all the Suses I came in touch to I'm thankful. They all, from Suses to opensuses, were a great piece of work. In the end it's not about emotions but future actions. I will choose the linux which seems best for me. And I liked the suse way all the time so I asked if there're plans to release a version which is suitable for my needs. Because I wanted to stick with suse. I will never say (like others do) that any other distribution is superior. That is unthankful. I appreciate what I get and allow myself to ask for things I held useful for.
Why don't you lobby for a return of OpenSuse Professional, which was not nearly as expensive as SLED OR SLES, but sales of such could finance significant longer-term support.
Is this logical inside your argumentation? Is there a difference between opensuse "LTS" and suse prof? All I lobby for is a broad base of "my" linux flavor. I want a sufficient number of people in community. I like all the tuts and hints over the web.
If you want something which COSTS MONEY, then be prepared to pay for it, and quite *WHINING* that it's not being given to you IN ADDITION to a very convenient software distribution which has a value in many thousands of euros.
Do you think I'm crying about missing presents? Do you think I beg for it? No, I don't. I'm *WHINING* about the good time I had using suse. It reminds me to discussions windows users like to have. Why can't I get windows for free?? Freedom of software is freedom of choice, too.
The horse is dead; no matter how many times you kick it, it isn't going to get up and run a race.
Thanks for the conclusion. I support this. Johannes P.S It always has been a chameleon; not a horse. Hopefully only the horse is dead. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Johannes Nohl schrieb: |> If you want something which COSTS MONEY, then be |> prepared to pay for it, and quite *WHINING* that |> it's not being given to you IN ADDITION to a very |> convenient software distribution which has a value |> in many thousands of euros. | Do you think I'm crying about missing presents? Do you think I beg for | it? No, I don't. I'm *WHINING* about the good time I had using suse. As I do. I've always bought SuSE Professional, since the 6.0 release if I recall correctly. I couldn't install it w/o help but I bought it anyway; all the way up till 9.3. Even in the old SuSE times it was not that hard to get a burned copy of SuSE, but I bought it anyway. It was fun to unpack the box and to smell the fresh printed handbook. It was something very valuable to me, but now it became fastfood. What *I* need is a Long Time Supported SuSE Professional with printed handbook and updates tested several times. Not such as the latest 'disastrous' kernel update. With all the multimedia running out of the box for my workstation and a decent Yast-preset for a CLI-server. Maybe even with a support option based on access to a mailing list where a patient dev would answer all the stupid questions I might have. That means added value to me and believe me I really wouldn't mention to pay for it...again! Thus dear Novell guys. There is a demand. We just wait for an offer. ;) - -- All the best, Peter J. P-N. aedon DESIGNS http://www.hochzeitsbuch.info http://www.hochzeitsbuch.selfip.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHpe9eh8q3OtgoGAwRAq09AJ4zgJQa5QD11xKFqshu7x42vDI73ACgkIZ2 anxK79Wu+caX5F3qra4MgA8= =JWZi -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, Feb 03, 2008 at 05:44:14PM +0100, peter wrote:
Johannes Nohl schrieb:
|> If you want something which COSTS MONEY, then be |> prepared to pay for it, and quite *WHINING* that |> it's not being given to you IN ADDITION to a very |> convenient software distribution which has a value |> in many thousands of euros.
| Do you think I'm crying about missing presents? Do you think I beg for | it? No, I don't. I'm *WHINING* about the good time I had using suse.
As I do. I've always bought SuSE Professional, since the 6.0 release if I recall correctly. I couldn't install it w/o help but I bought it anyway; all the way up till 9.3. Even in the old SuSE times it was not that hard to get a burned copy of SuSE, but I bought it anyway. It was fun to unpack the box and to smell the fresh printed handbook. It was something very valuable to me, but now it became fastfood.
What *I* need is a Long Time Supported SuSE Professional with printed handbook and updates tested several times. Not such as the latest 'disastrous' kernel update. With all the multimedia running out of the box for my workstation and a decent Yast-preset for a CLI-server. Maybe even with a support option based on access to a mailing list where a patient dev would answer all the stupid questions I might have. That means added value to me and believe me I really wouldn't mention to pay for it...again!
What disastrous kernel update? And would you like fries with that? Ciao, Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Marcus Meissner schrieb:
What disastrous kernel update?
ROTFL. I knew I'll get some feedback on that point. I was just making sure I get your (opensuse) attention. ;) Nevertheless, you got to admit, the latest update was way far from being perfect...
And would you like fries with that?
If opensuse considers a diversification into gastronomy then hell why not? I'd consider even fries, although I'm not that much into fastfood. Nichts für ungut Marcus. ;) -- All the best, Peter J. P-N. aedon DESIGNS http://www.hochzeitsbuch.info http://www.hochzeitsbuch.selfip.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
peter wrote:
I'd consider even fries, although I'm not that much into fastfood.
Escargot? ;-) -- Use OpenOffice.org <http://www.openoffice.org> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
James Knott schrieb:
I'd consider even fries, although I'm not that much into fastfood.
Escargot? ;-)
Not that tasty, but at least it can't be considered as a very *fast* food. :) -- All the best, Peter J. P-N. aedon DESIGNS http://www.hochzeitsbuch.info http://www.hochzeitsbuch.selfip.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
peter wrote:
James Knott schrieb:
I'd consider even fries, although I'm not that much into fastfood.
Escargot? ;-)
Not that tasty, but at least it can't be considered as a very *fast* food. :)
Yeah, the problem with fast food is you have to catch it first! ;-) -- Use OpenOffice.org <http://www.openoffice.org> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, 2008-02-03 at 14:24 -0500, James Knott wrote:
peter wrote:
I'd consider even fries, although I'm not that much into fastfood.
Escargot? ;-)
It reminds me of un untasty scene from Harry Potter part-2 ;-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, Feb 03, 2008 at 08:19:26PM +0100, peter wrote:
Marcus Meissner schrieb:
What disastrous kernel update?
ROTFL. I knew I'll get some feedback on that point. I was just making sure I get your (opensuse) attention. ;) Nevertheless, you got to admit, the latest update was way far from being perfect...
As I am responsible for tyhe last 10.3 update, its in my area and I can say that having another opensuse version would not really have helped. ANd what specific problem? There was one problem which might have been caught by better testing, the disabled CPUFREQ support. All the KMP issues would have been difficult to solve with all the external KMP handling we have for openSUSE. Ciao, Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, 3 Feb 2008, peter wrote:-
Marcus Meissner schrieb:
What disastrous kernel update?
ROTFL. I knew I'll get some feedback on that point. I was just making sure I get your (opensuse) attention. ;) Nevertheless, you got to admit, the latest update was way far from being perfect...
Not here it wasn't. I did the kernel upgrade on 3 10.3 systems[0] and, apart from a reordering of the Grub menu on the system that dual-boots, I've not had a problem. [0] One 32bit, one 64bit that dual-boots Windows XP, and one 64bit system that only has Linux on it. Haven't performed the update on my PPC system as yet, so I've no idea if that will have problems. Regards, David Bolt -- Team Acorn: http://www.distributed.net/ OGR-P2 @ ~100Mnodes RC5-72 @ ~15Mkeys SUSE 10.1 32bit | openSUSE 10.2 32bit | openSUSE 10.3 32bit | openSUSE 11.0a1 SUSE 10.1 64bit | openSUSE 10.2 64bit | openSUSE 10.3 64bit RISC OS 3.6 | TOS 4.02 | openSUSE 10.3 PPC |RISC OS 3.11 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
David Bolt wrote:
On Sun, 3 Feb 2008, peter wrote:-
Nevertheless, you got to admit, the latest update was way far from being perfect... Not here it wasn't. I did the kernel upgrade on 3 10.3 systems[0] and, apart from a reordering of the Grub menu on the system that dual-boots, I've not had a problem. The update did or required a change in Grub ? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, 3 Feb 2008, Philippe Landau wrote:-
David Bolt wrote:
Not here it wasn't. I did the kernel upgrade on 3 10.3 systems[0] and, apart from a reordering of the Grub menu on the system that dual-boots, I've not had a problem. The update did or required a change in Grub ?
There was a change to menu.lst. The system in question had the sections titled[0]: openSUSE 10.3 Windows openSUSE 10.3 - failsafe Memtest before the upgrade. Afterwards, the ordering changed to: openSUSE 10.3 openSUSE 10.3 - failsafe Windows Memtest I don't know if there were other changes as I didn't take much notice of the contents of each section. [0] No, these aren't the full titles. I'm not even sure what they were, since it's not my system,. I just know which one was where in the list. Regards, David Bolt -- Team Acorn: http://www.distributed.net/ OGR-P2 @ ~100Mnodes RC5-72 @ ~15Mkeys SUSE 10.1 32bit | openSUSE 10.2 32bit | openSUSE 10.3 32bit | openSUSE 11.0a1 SUSE 10.1 64bit | openSUSE 10.2 64bit | openSUSE 10.3 64bit RISC OS 3.6 | TOS 4.02 | openSUSE 10.3 PPC |RISC OS 3.11 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, 3 Feb 2008, David Bolt wrote:- <snip>
before the upgrade. Afterwards, the ordering changed to:
openSUSE 10.3 openSUSE 10.3 - failsafe Windows
Okay, having decided my memory isn't quite as good as it could be, I decided to check and the Memtest section isn't there. Could have sworn it was, unless it's written in black text on a black background, it doesn't show up when booting. The Windows section is still there, and the ordering definitely changed. Just as well Memtest was the last section. I'd hate to have to explain to my wife why she couldn't use Windows when she wants to. Regards, David Bolt -- Team Acorn: http://www.distributed.net/ OGR-P2 @ ~100Mnodes RC5-72 @ ~15Mkeys SUSE 10.1 32bit | openSUSE 10.2 32bit | openSUSE 10.3 32bit | openSUSE 11.0a1 SUSE 10.1 64bit | openSUSE 10.2 64bit | openSUSE 10.3 64bit RISC OS 3.6 | TOS 4.02 | openSUSE 10.3 PPC |RISC OS 3.11 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Sunday 2008-02-03 at 20:15 -0000, David Bolt wrote:
The update did or required a change in Grub ?
There was a change to menu.lst. The system in question had the sections titled[0]:
I always remove the entries added by YOU to grub. I don't understand why they do, it works fine without them. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHqF37tTMYHG2NR9URAmZsAJ9W5OnB7Dx1SGFsQFF4lNUPPr+bowCgjicN vlFLSrzygVW5dTnuUzaXJcA= =c+jm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 03 February 2008, peter wrote:
Johannes Nohl schrieb: |> If you want something which COSTS MONEY, then be |> prepared to pay for it, and quite *WHINING* that |> it's not being given to you IN ADDITION to a very |> convenient software distribution which has a value |> in many thousands of euros. | | Do you think I'm crying about missing presents? Do you think I beg | for it? No, I don't. I'm *WHINING* about the good time I had using | suse.
As I do. I've always bought SuSE Professional, since the 6.0 release if I recall correctly. I couldn't install it w/o help but I bought it anyway; all the way up till 9.3. Even in the old SuSE times it was not that hard to get a burned copy of SuSE, but I bought it anyway. It was fun to unpack the box and to smell the fresh printed handbook. It was something very valuable to me, but now it became fastfood.
Second that. I always had the boxed Pro versions. 9.3 is still today the best distro I've ever had. If only it was still supported, or I was knowledgeable enough to support it myself, I would be using it instead of this 10.3 that I'm now running. Quality-wise, going to 10.2 from 9.3 was a huge step backwards for me. 10.3 has been even buggier than 10.2, even with all the apparmor, beagle etc. crap removed. Everything about this feels a bit flimsy and unsteady. Heck, even something as simple as the updater applet works unreliably. When I set up the next system I will have to consider between the enterprise desktop version (I think they promise a decent life span for it) or looking at some other distro. I don't know yet. But the current openSUSE is not what SuSE was. Maybe SLED ain't either, but at least they provide security updates for it longer than 18 months or so, meaning, that suppose I get it set up right, I won't have to move to a yet another system the next year.
What *I* need is a Long Time Supported SuSE Professional with printed handbook and updates tested several times.
Couldn't agree more. Regards, Tero Pesonen -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Thus dear Novell guys. There is a demand. We just wait for an offer. ;)
Prove there is a demand. Make an economical document proving it can be done,how it has to be done, saying whats the risk, how much everybody will get in money, specify the costs, specify the infrastructure. Then give it to Novell management, charge Novell for your consulting like Accenture would do. You will get rich, and maybe retire, or get some novell stocks. They may hire you, a company always wants the best business plan to make great money. I think you should talk with the guys. Or you can just keeping sending mails to this list saying how wonderful it would be this and that and bla bla bla... Best regards Marcio Ferreira --- Druid -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Johannes Nohl schrieb: |> I'm afraid you're right on that, but I hope that they at least |> appreciate the feedback they got from us. It could sometimes be more |> worth than an advice of a Goldman Sachs investment banker... ;) | Good point. Finnally you could ask yourself how long there will be a | community version of suse at all. Whether they don't listen to their | users demands or there won't be users because they went away to | another distro. | I ask again: If I'm forced to replace opensuse on some projects to a | distribution with a longer life cycle why should I keep opensuse on my | desktop? Let's brainstorm: 1. SLES with certificates, 24/7 support, provided warranties, etc and with several years of support agreement for a proper calculated charge. 2. Opensuse Community, bleeding edge, *only* downloadable, free of charge for guinea pigs like me. :) 3. Opensuse Comminity LTS, *only* privat-buyable, coz with no possibility of support agreement or warranties, with printed handbook, paying let say 100$ at once. Thus: Novel would cover existing demand. Novel gains indirectly on image and reputation. Most users would stick to the brand; To be honest, 100$ it's probably less painful then getting acquainted with a new distro. I do strong believe there will be not much companies substituting SLES with Opensuse LTS because most of the risk management routines in those companies would forbid it... but if so, then that would be IMO better for novel than let his users substitute Opensuse with e.g. Centos. Some of us, however, would really love to substitute Opensuse with Opensuse LTS e.g. for servers. A Opensuse LTS would thus generate an additional cash flow for novel or opensuse.org. The latest means less subvention for opensuse.org provided by novel or better salaries for the devs. I'm convinced that a LTS release would neither endanger the current position of Opensuse Community release nor make it obsolete for users. There is an urge among users for bleeding edge software which suits new hardware and make GNU/Linux look fancy. And btw no sane user would mix up a stable LTS with bleeding edge packages, and pay for that "comfort" 100$. Now the easy task: Calling a Goldman Sachs investment banker and let him valuate such an investment strategy... ...hopefully not by the means of WACC ;) - -- All the best, Peter J. N. aedon DESIGNS http://www.hochzeitsbuch.info http://www.hochzeitsbuch.selfip.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHnfH9h8q3OtgoGAwRAjuFAJwPjVO6CSkf13cZ9ddKxpOaIWu5pACfajUi +IN2A1+wt8/uORE5TL71Vi8= =N89g -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Johannes Nohl wrote:
The discussion seemed to be ended but the maintance release (!) of a LTS'ed Linux (http://www.ubuntu.com/news/lts-6.06.2) reminds me of this thread. I read that many responses to this release that I think the number of users must be extremly high. Most pointed out that they are not interested in cutting edge software but in stability. Don't you think a long time support release of opensuse will bring (more) people (back) to this great distribution?!
Not if Novell loses money on the deal because business no longer has any reason to pay for SLES or SLED. In fact, I think opensuse itself is a bad idea, because the quality has declined since the days when they were selling Suse Desktop and Suse Professional for a small amount of money which helped pay for everything. Remember, Johann, if they're not making a profit on Suse, then they'll probably just shut it down (it would be hard to sell of a division that's losing money). And then there will be NO Suse -- and YaST would become unavailable, because the source would still be Novell property. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
I have said many times that the ".3" releases should stop being innovative and just be a cumulative of the ".0" + ".1"+".2" + fixes and IT should get the 2 years of updates alone. This way those wishing to avoid "cutting edge" would be able to load a Distro with very little "gotcha's" . This would not really be an "LTS" as much as a "this one is absolutely not beta" version. Novell could actually profit from this in that it's support of the ".3" could relate more directly to "SP's" for SLE. but I'm just a "country bumkin", what do I know! LOL -- James Tremblay Director of Technology Newmarket School District Newmarket NH 03857 "let's make a difference" http://en.opensuse.org/education -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Aaron Kulkis escribió:
selling Suse Desktop and Suse Professional for a small amount of money which helped pay for everything.
No, it didnt help.
and YaST would become unavailable, because the source would still be Novell property.
No, Yast is GPL, it cannot become unavailable. you are seriously lost in your analysis. -- "The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education." - Albert Einstein Cristian Rodríguez R. Platform/OpenSUSE - Core Services SUSE LINUX Products GmbH Research & Development http://www.opensuse.org/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
Aaron Kulkis escribió:
selling Suse Desktop and Suse Professional for a small amount of money which helped pay for everything.
No, it didnt help.
and YaST would become unavailable, because the source would still be Novell property.
No, Yast is GPL, it cannot become unavailable. you are seriously lost in your analysis.
When was YaST GPL'ed? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 04/02/2008, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis00@hotpop.com> wrote:
When was YaST GPL'ed?
Four years ago, (see http://www.news.com/2100-7344_3-5175682.html?tag=nefd_top ) -- Benjamin Weber -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 4 Feb 2008, Aaron Kulkis wrote:-
Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
Aaron Kulkis escribió:
selling Suse Desktop and Suse Professional for a small amount of money which helped pay for everything. No, it didnt help.
and YaST would become unavailable, because the source would still be Novell property. No, Yast is GPL, it cannot become unavailable. you are seriously lost in your analysis.
When was YaST GPL'ed?
A GPL'd YaST2 was released with SuSE 9.1: davjam@thargon:~> rpm -qi yast2 Name : yast2 Relocations: /usr Version : 2.9.60 Vendor: SuSE Linux AG, Nuernberg, Germany Release : 5 Build Date: Wed 07 Apr 2004 18:15:53 BST Install date: Mon 01 Nov 2004 19:45:22 GMT Build Host: pythagoras.suse.de Group : System/YaST Source RPM: yast2-2.9.60-5.src.rpm Size : 1074160 License: GPL Signature : DSA/SHA1, Wed 07 Apr 2004 18:17:58 BST, Key ID a84edae89c800aca Packager : http://www.suse.de/feedback Summary : YaST2 - Main Package Description : This package contains scripts and data needed for SuSE Linux installation with YaST2 Authors: -------- Michael Andres <ma@suse.de> Waldo Bastian <bastian@suse.de> Michael Hager <mike@suse.de> Stefan Hundhammer <sh@suse.de> Klaus Kaempf <kkaempf@suse.de> Mathias Kettner <kettner@suse.de> Thomas Roelz <tom@suse.de> Arvin Schnell <arvin@suse.de> Stefan Schubert <schubi@suse.de> Andreas Schwab <schwab@suse.de> Steffen Winterfeldt <snwint@suse.de> Distribution: SuSE Linux 9.1 (i586) Regards, David Bolt -- Team Acorn: http://www.distributed.net/ OGR-P2 @ ~100Mnodes RC5-72 @ ~15Mkeys SUSE 10.1 32bit | openSUSE 10.2 32bit | openSUSE 10.3 32bit | openSUSE 11.0a1 SUSE 10.1 64bit | openSUSE 10.2 64bit | openSUSE 10.3 64bit RISC OS 3.6 | TOS 4.02 | openSUSE 10.3 PPC | RISC OS 3.11 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Johannes Nohl schrieb: | The discussion seemed to be ended but the maintance release (!) of a | LTS'ed Linux (http://www.ubuntu.com/news/lts-6.06.2) reminds me of | this thread. I read that many responses to this release that I think | the number of users must be extremly high. Most pointed out that they | are not interested in cutting edge software but in stability. Don't | you think a long time support release of opensuse will bring (more) | people (back) to this great distribution?! I would tend to agree. IMO there should be an additional LTS release of Opensuse. I think it would be for both the users and the devs an advantage and presumably not much of competition to SLES/SLED. Before all I do like the bleeding edge touch of Opensuse. I always update my distro when the third party repositories are available for the new release. (Yes I know! Shame on me I don't work with you on factory releases.) That's cool for a workstation, but what about server? Some of us maybe even not quite few do need neither SLES for a home-server/small-cap-server nor would even think of putting a bleeding edge distro on such way destined machine. For my part I'm at the moment thinking of setting up a home-server with a http and ftp deamon on it in order to suit my very little business. Thus what distro do I shall choose? 10.2 or maybe even 10.3? Definitely not. Sorry I won't. I tend to use either Centos or even Debian, but I'd really love having the opportunity to choose a LTS-Opensuse... If providing a LTS-release then, it should be a stable one, with security patches and updated with current stable kernels. I would even pay for it, a reasonable amount of cash of course. I'd have no need for phone or email support, but all patches, kernels and the this mailing list. When (or if) my company gets bigger then believe me I will buy SLES, coz then I'm convinced that I won't have much spare time but even more cash to spare though. And a 24/7 supported SLES would even decrease my administration costs and thus satisfy my very ugly opportunistic nature... ... and a 'centos-like' for SLES might come... - -- All the best, Peter J. N. aedon DESIGNS http://www.hochzeitsbuch.info http://www.hochzeitsbuch.selfip.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHnQYQh8q3OtgoGAwRAvKZAJ9FPrHulBdph50dtLmwSzUxdDChOwCfWKUL qVhmVmQIcyWG95iuHYwUK1M= =ZJYL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 23:30:40 +0100, peter wrote:
I would tend to agree. IMO there should be an additional LTS release of Opensuse.
This is comunity guys, so nobody stops you from doing something like that, even though Novell will stick to the SLE/SLED products. Grab the packages and do a stable release much in the way CentOS does it- Philipp -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Philipp Thomas schrieb: | This is comunity guys, so nobody stops you from doing something like | that, even though Novell will stick to the SLE/SLED products. Grab the | packages and do a stable release much in the way CentOS does it- Something like: If you want a nice vacation then why don't you build your own hotel? This is that kind of logic I really admire, indeed. And btw, you don't need to build anything. Just take SLES and its updates and do a re-branding. It's mostly open source. You just need some little effort and one or two capable layers. But that not the point. The point is to calculate what is better: To wait for such event or to satisfy an existing demand among the users prior that event. - -- All the best, Peter J. N. aedon DESIGNS http://www.hochzeitsbuch.info http://www.hochzeitsbuch.selfip.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHnTrJh8q3OtgoGAwRAoqMAJ4hzBYwV4cBlSd0JrxCTwNN3VEiTwCcChuB eNMLyP3MdRmf2qthtsP1cCw= =8/AS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 2008-01-28 at 03:15 +0100, peter wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Philipp Thomas schrieb:
| This is comunity guys, so nobody stops you from doing something like | that, even though Novell will stick to the SLE/SLED products. Grab the | packages and do a stable release much in the way CentOS does it-
Something like: If you want a nice vacation then why don't you build your own hotel? This is that kind of logic I really admire, indeed.
And btw, you don't need to build anything. Just take SLES and its updates and do a re-branding. It's mostly open source. You just need some little effort and one or two capable layers. But that not the point. The point is to calculate what is better: To wait for such event or to satisfy an existing demand among the users prior that event.
You can probably do that for OpenSuSE, but i'm not sure if you are allowed to do that for SLE(s/d) After all, you need a contract to be able to download the images and the udates. You might breach the terms of that contract.... hw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hans Witvliet wrote: | | You can probably do that for OpenSuSE, but i'm not sure if you are | allowed to do that for SLE(s/d) ~ sure you can for sled/sles. if you had the time to go through EVERY package in the whole distro and remove every likeness of "novell" and every trademark copyrighted by novell. then it can be redistributed. thats the way they prepare redhat for centos. | | After all, you need a contract to be able to download the images and the | udates. You might breach the terms of that contract.... the isos are freely available, all you have to do is register on novell. just cant get any updates after 30 days, and zero support from novell. | | hw - -- Steve Reilly http://reillyblog.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHnL2B1L48K811Km0RApecAKCW2YYhiRX+b+Ur1QfBpLfR7uKcbACfSxmC C6BaE5wyjW+tkEtFeNMeN/Q= =1GTZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hans Witvliet schrieb: | You can probably do that for OpenSuSE, but i'm not sure if you are | allowed to do that for SLE(s/d) According to the GPL releases I would be allowed. | After all, you need a contract to be able to download the images and the | udates. You might breach the terms of that contract.... Nobody's said that the contractor and the builder of such re-branded SLES must be one and the same institution...and sharing GPL/2/3 code AFAIK is not forbidden. - -- All the best, Peter J. N. aedon DESIGNS http://www.hochzeitsbuch.info http://www.hochzeitsbuch.selfip.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHnfWph8q3OtgoGAwRAlFVAKCMNl+spVRmiWyBr8+nvmLkrN/KmACgjD5s 9dmWxXz0xlrYawasW3dJknw= =08rw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Hello,
| After all, you need a contract to be able to download the images and the | udates. You might breach the terms of that contract....
Nobody's said that the contractor and the builder of such re-branded SLES must be one and the same institution...and sharing GPL/2/3 code AFAIK is not forbidden.
Well you *can* download SLE[SD] Priducts without any contract. You only got to register at Novell to get an account, but there are no contracts, payments whatsoever involved. You even can use SLES for free. (For it is all GPL.) You need a contract to get updates. If you don't have one you only get updates in the first 30 days. A Novell Contract comes at $290 for a year, $725 for three years. I know that having one subsicription you can update as many systems as you like. (There even is some product of Novell (ZEN-Works) to distribute patches and so on in your network.) I don't know if it would be possible to get a contract, get the updates and share them to the public. (I mean legaly; of coure it is possible to do such a thing...) Theoretical, those updates should be GPL, too. till then, Ortwin
- -- All the best, Peter J. N. aedon DESIGNS http://www.hochzeitsbuch.info http://www.hochzeitsbuch.selfip.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
iD8DBQFHnfWph8q3OtgoGAwRAlFVAKCMNl+spVRmiWyBr8+nvmLkrN/KmACgjD5s 9dmWxXz0xlrYawasW3dJknw= =08rw -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Little correction: Ortwin Ebhardt
You need a contract to get updates. If you don't have one you only get updates in the first 30 days. A Novell Contract comes at $290 for a year, $725 for three years.
This is not Dollars, but Euros. till then, Ortwin -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Ortwin Ebhardt schrieb: | Well you *can* download SLE[SD] Priducts without any contract. You only | got to register at Novell to get an account, but there are no contracts, | payments whatsoever involved. You even can use SLES for free. (For it is | all GPL.) I know. | You need a contract to get updates. If you don't have one you only get | updates in the first 30 days. A Novell Contract comes at $290 for a | year, $725 for three years. I know that having one subsicription you can | update as many systems as you like. (There even is some product of | Novell (ZEN-Works) to distribute patches and so on in your network.) I know | don't know if it would be possible to get a contract, get the updates | and share them to the public. (I mean legaly; of coure it is possible to | do such a thing...) Theoretical, those updates should be GPL, too. That's my point. Those updates, maybe not all, are GPl. AFAIK there is no way Novell can forbid to share those updates and AFAIK Novell has also even to provide the source code if at least demanded. The only thing Novell might do is to terminate the subscription under some legally suited pretext. But if someone would intended such a re-branding then what would Novell do? Fight and endanger its own reputation if that got public? Coz IMO in such case the open source would probably get really "pissed". This all of course purely theoretically!! I just speculate on that topic in order make a point that an Opensuse LTS might be, to same extend, a proper precaution for the future for Novell. But as always I might be wrong. - -- All the best, Peter J. N. aedon DESIGNS http://www.hochzeitsbuch.info http://www.hochzeitsbuch.selfip.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHngFPh8q3OtgoGAwRAtLKAKCFN64Oi896YgzlrQrRRbBNfsgvXACeK2X1 Bec4qMogjne5C6ZUTcqPodg= =Wb2c -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 peter wrote:
This all of course purely theoretically!! I just speculate on that topic in order make a point that an Opensuse LTS might be, to same extend, a proper precaution for the future for Novell. But as always I might be wrong.
I think someone is arguing for openSuSE to adopt the Windows Siesta licence model :-) Having so many versions that everyone gets confused :-) - -- ============================================================================== I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my telephone. Bjarne Stroustrup ============================================================================== -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHnLrUasN0sSnLmgIRAgQNAJ0Q+lg6pdush64911DB0cq66LXuygCbBBmf U9CWWRreS85nk40pSxmhvUs= =LCAX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 G T Smith schrieb: |> This all of course purely theoretically!! |> I just speculate on that topic in order make a point that an Opensuse |> LTS might be, to same extend, a proper precaution for the future for |> Novell. But as always I might be wrong. | I think someone is arguing for openSuSE to adopt the Windows Siesta | licence model :-) ROTFL. Btw, what the heck is "Windows"? Just kidding. | Having so many versions that everyone gets confused :-) It depends. Ubuntu has also a similar release model. And look at their rankings. I know that such a release model would contradict Novell's need for guinea pigs. But I can live with being used. I even like it. I use Opensuse on a Workstation for the following main reasons: 1. I have a still great sentiment to SuSE. 2. Opensuse is providing the best KDE environment, according to my standards. 3. I like to play with cutting edge software and as you know there is many of it. Unfortunatelly I find no reasons to put Opensuse even on a home server. And having the same repositories for both server and wks is definitely not an added value to me. Thus a LTS release would be much appreciated by me. And btw, SLES ain't only stability. Its more to it. No one ask Novell to put SLES' specific scripts into a LTS Opensuse. - -- All the best, Peter J. N. aedon DESIGNS http://www.hochzeitsbuch.info http://www.hochzeitsbuch.selfip.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHnhesh8q3OtgoGAwRAiy6AJ0acQUmPMe35nNAV+sxdw8aTAoOHgCeLU8k 0ou1thac6lCMzsWb89SyH5w= =Z8VN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 2008-01-28T17:22:39, peter <nospam@aedon.eu> wrote:
That's my point. Those updates, maybe not all, are GPl. AFAIK there is no way Novell can forbid to share those updates and AFAIK Novell has also even to provide the source code if at least demanded. The only thing Novell might do is to terminate the subscription under some legally suited pretext.
The code is GPL (or whatever the license happens to be); the signatures, patchinfos etc are not. You'd be allowed to redistribute re-compiled binaries of course. You could create that, just like CentOS, but it would be "unsupported" and "uncertified" by the big ISVs like SAP and Oracle etc. So I wonder what advantage you'd get from that; afterall, the support and certification agreements are a key asset of chosing an Enterprise distro. Regards, Lars -- Teamlead Kernel, SuSE Labs, Research and Development SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) "Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes." -- Oscar Wilde -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 03:15:37 +0100, peter wrote:
Something like: If you want a nice vacation then why don't you build your own hotel? This is that kind of logic I really admire, indeed.
Then how do you suppose distributions like Debian came to happen?
Just take SLES and its updates and do a re-branding. It's mostly open source.
You're wrong once again. You need a valid maintenance contract in order to get access to the updates. So rebranding won't work. Philipp -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Philipp Thomas schrieb: | You're wrong once again. You need a valid maintenance contract in order | to get access to the updates. So rebranding won't work. Keep dreaming. There is no problem in getting such a contract. Don't you have friends and friends and friends. The law is on my side. Read the GPL. Wo ein Wille ist, ist auch ein Weg. ;) - -- All the best, Peter J. N. aedon DESIGNS http://www.hochzeitsbuch.info http://www.hochzeitsbuch.selfip.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHnfN8h8q3OtgoGAwRAmBCAJ48mjlEeAWjpG811rXNIQW4Gd22lQCgjC8d 99wR58hsDqb21TdBZG+1SD8= =1gXF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 16:23:40 +0100, peter wrote:
Keep dreaming. There is no problem in getting such a contract.
Even if you know people that provide you with access, you can't offer those packages openly without being sued. So there is no legal way to do something like CentOS, unless you're willing to do the maintenance yourself.
Read the GPL.
I've done so many times, believe me. It it says that you have to offer the source code to those that receive the binaries and we do that.
Wo ein Wille ist, ist auch ein Weg. ;) Ja, aber keinen legalen.
Maybe, but there is no legal way you could do it, so you can't do it in the open. Philipp -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Philipp Thomas schrieb: | Even if you know people that provide you with access, you can't offer | those packages openly without being sued. So there is no legal way to do | something like CentOS, unless you're willing to do the maintenance | yourself. You are probably right, but most of the software contained by SLES is GPL. Thus the question is how much time would it take for let say 4 Eastern European hackers to remove the dependencies to the proprietary binaries from the source code and do so for future maintenance as well? I can't define it at will. Can you? Maybe Novell can and thus feels such sure about not having any such competition in the near future. But this is IMO only a minor aspect of the discussion. The main problem is that there are other rpm based distributions which provide stable LTS releases. Thus ask yourself what would one do if forced to use e.g. centos on his server? Will he switch to fedora on his wks as well? Will he ever come back to Opensuse? What distro will he be forcing at his job in the future? SLES or e.g. RHEL? Change is slow, even in the computer industry, but when it starts it might be unstoppable and there might be no time for late reconsiderations. And no, I'm not a reincarnation of Nostradamus. Even if I sometimes sound like a one. ROTFL. Please take also into account that I do wish well for both Opensuse and Novell. If wouldn't do so, then I wouldn't even have 'engaged' into this discussion and thus would consider myself as a troll. - -- All the best, Peter J. N. aedon DESIGNS http://www.hochzeitsbuch.info http://www.hochzeitsbuch.selfip.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHniPxh8q3OtgoGAwRAuhVAJ9+F2rjGsK29ED+Q2AQSqfeQwhk9QCdFNe+ tP0KxnZ1M7bjAEOuRqamIXE= =nfb7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
So let's sum it up: It is _very_ unlikely, that Novell will help with producing/maintaining openSUSE LTS, so the main question is: are we strong enough community to handle that task? I'm non-developer, but I'm willing to assist with BETA-testing (which is even more important for LTS releases, than non-LTS ones). Are there any _developers or maintainers_, that want to handle this difficult, time consuming task? -- -Alexey Eremenko "Technologov" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 2008-01-27T20:56:27, Alexey Eremenko <al4321@gmail.com> wrote:
So let's sum it up: It is _very_ unlikely, that Novell will help with producing/maintaining openSUSE LTS, so the main question is: are we strong enough community to handle that task?
I'm non-developer, but I'm willing to assist with BETA-testing (which is even more important for LTS releases, than non-LTS ones).
Are there any _developers or maintainers_, that want to handle this difficult, time consuming task?
I've read through this all, and I think you're heading down the wrong path, even though it's well-worn. LTS, or what is commercially called "Enterprise" distros, are a PITA. They avoid change. That makes them brittle, unflexible and costly. Have you ever heard a management trainer advocate "Manage to avoid change"? No? Ask yourself why. What you want, what you _really_ want even if you don't know it, is fluid, painless change. You don't want frozen distros. You want everything to continue working with the newest code. What people _really_ want are perfectly smooth upgrades. This whole Enterprise stuff forces Linux into the mould left by dinosaurs, such as AIX and VMS. They confuse "stability" with "unchanging". You will also find that the same people who want "unchanging" distributions want them to run on the newest hardware at top speed, while providing all the latest features. How people fail to not see the paradox here has always amazed me. Don't fall into that trap. We do it because it brings in cash, not because it makes anyone particularly happy. As long as you think change == bad, you'll fail and suffer. Regards, Lars -- Teamlead Kernel, SuSE Labs, Research and Development SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) "Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes." -- Oscar Wilde -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Lars Marowsky-Bree wrote:
On 2008-01-27T20:56:27, Alexey Eremenko <al4321@gmail.com> wrote:
So let's sum it up: It is _very_ unlikely, that Novell will help with producing/maintaining openSUSE LTS, so the main question is: are we strong enough community to handle that task?
I've read through this all, and I think you're heading down the wrong path, even though it's well-worn.
LTS, or what is commercially called "Enterprise" distros, are a PITA. They avoid change. That makes them brittle, unflexible and costly. Have you ever heard a management trainer advocate "Manage to avoid change"? No? Ask yourself why.
What you want, what you _really_ want even if you don't know it, is fluid, painless change.
You don't want frozen distros. You want everything to continue working with the newest code. What people _really_ want are perfectly smooth upgrades.
This whole Enterprise stuff forces Linux into the mould left by dinosaurs, such as AIX and VMS. They confuse "stability" with "unchanging".
You will also find that the same people who want "unchanging" distributions want them to run on the newest hardware at top speed, while providing all the latest features. How people fail to not see the paradox here has always amazed me.
Don't fall into that trap. We do it because it brings in cash, not because it makes anyone particularly happy.
As long as you think change == bad, you'll fail and suffer.
Thanks for your refreshingly plain and frank thoughts, Lars. There were a few comments from IT managers here advertising "if it ain't broke, don't touch it". It made me wonder. What you say is hidden in plain view since years: Most money in IT is made by delivering broken solutions. Troyan horses, in effect, making clients dependent. Sadly this is true for large parts of today's ruling predatory and devastatingly heartless economy: Medicine profits most by suppressing efficient natural cures and making people sick with their expensive treatments. Drugs are made super-profitable by monopolising their production trade and sale staging apparent "War on drugs". Oil profits are multiplied by oppressing alternatives and destroying supply lines with ghost-chasing-wars. Secret services like the NSA make sure software and OS are full of backdoors and holes they can exploit. Bankers control the game by eating away the value of our money while pretending to keep it safe. Psychiatry schools police courts lawyers and prisons generate more income the less they help. People are better slaves the less they know while getting more propaganda (TV, media) and more desperate consumers if they have to compensate for real love they are trained to withhold from each other. Is Novell sponsoring OpenSuse mainly to attract people to their corporate products and test new applications ? Progress for the home user is mostly an occasional by-product of the hundreds of millions driving Linux development. Canonical for example spent more money advertising their Ubuntu brand and dividing the biggest Linux development community (Debian) then making common tasks more accessible. The hardware/Microsoft cartels keep scores of top Linux developers busy just trying to keep up with the daily created hurdles of proprietary schemes. Mandriva has been eaten alive by insiders and user-focused Linux distribution suffer from lack of funding and carefully introduced infighting. Most home users i know hop from one distro to the next, at differing paces. Of course there are many loyalists, who constitute the bulk of those active on mailinglists such as this one :-) Kind regards Philippe -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Lars Marowsky-Bree wrote:
On 2008-01-27T20:56:27, Alexey Eremenko <al4321@gmail.com> wrote:
So let's sum it up: It is _very_ unlikely, that Novell will help with producing/maintaining openSUSE LTS, so the main question is: are we strong enough community to handle that task?
I'm non-developer, but I'm willing to assist with BETA-testing (which is even more important for LTS releases, than non-LTS ones).
Are there any _developers or maintainers_, that want to handle this difficult, time consuming task?
I've read through this all, and I think you're heading down the wrong path, even though it's well-worn.
LTS, or what is commercially called "Enterprise" distros, are a PITA. They avoid change. That makes them brittle, unflexible and costly. Have you ever heard a management trainer advocate "Manage to avoid change"? No? Ask yourself why.
What you want, what you _really_ want even if you don't know it, is fluid, painless change.
You don't want frozen distros. You want everything to continue working with the newest code. What people _really_ want are perfectly smooth upgrades.
This whole Enterprise stuff forces Linux into the mould left by dinosaurs, such as AIX and VMS. They confuse "stability" with "unchanging".
You will also find that the same people who want "unchanging" distributions want them to run on the newest hardware at top speed, while providing all the latest features. How people fail to not see the paradox here has always amazed me.
Don't fall into that trap. We do it because it brings in cash, not because it makes anyone particularly happy.
As long as you think change == bad, you'll fail and suffer.
I agree 100%. My main disappointment with the change from SuSE Pro to openSUSE is that because openSuSE is a loss-leader, the money isn't there to keep enough people on payroll to make sure that each release is as stable as it should be. SusE Pro 9.3 and each of the previous releases (6.x and up) were very stable products. 10.0 introduced "upgrades" what weren't ready for prime time. In November, 2006, I installed 10.1, hoping it would be an improvement. Instead, YOU (Yast Online Updater) didn't work. I re-installed 2 weeks later. Since I was in Baghdad in the middle of a war zone, writing up a bug report was just about last on my list of then current priorities in life. Reading the list, I see all kinds of nonsense concerned with fiddling with the look and feel of YaST... but if the doggone thing isn't working properly, this is no more beneficial than re-arranging the deck chairs on the RMS Titanic, when the hull has been breached, and bulkheads don't reach the ceilings. I'm still reading on this list complaints of basic functionality which used to work, and are now broken, and they're not getting fixed. I'd be more than happy to pay a reasonable price (along the lines of SuSE Pro) for the hiring of the staff to allow problems like this to get fixed. Another problem ... without your retail version, the local computer (a nation-wide chain named Micro-Center store no longer has ANY sign Linux on the shelves). Congratulations -- by ending SuSE Pro and SuSE Desktop, Novell and SuSE have dropped from a position offering minimal existance in the awareness of the uninitiated to one of complete non-existance. This is NOT the path to increasing the size of the user base. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Last but not least. Found through Google: http://dag.wieers.com/blog/node/34 An interesting blog article... I said what I had to say. You welcome keep talking but I just gonna download: http://mirrors.kernel.org/centos/5.1/isos/i386/CentOS-5.1-i386-bin-DVD.iso Maybe that will suit my server if Novel can't do it. - -- All the best, Peter J. N. aedon DESIGNS http://www.hochzeitsbuch.info http://www.hochzeitsbuch.selfip.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHngarh8q3OtgoGAwRAhF0AKCIoJYkgFmC7S5tiZhDBi67nC76HACgkPWs avn0gUAUduYIjsWLRMN3hqc= =fQkq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
"Johannes Nohl" <johannes.nohl@gmail.com> 01/26/08 4:15 PM >>> The discussion seemed to be ended but the maintance release (!) of a LTS'ed Linux (http://www.ubuntu.com/news/lts-6.06.2) reminds me of
Hmm, that is a nice idea. But in practice I know plenty of *production* machines run Fedora and OpenSUSE, usually beyond their support cycle. Under heavy production loads the hardware gets updated so often it doesn't seem to really matter. As I said, it's a nice idea :) Anyone who wanted to do that could just host a repo and backport packages to the last couple of revs of OpenSUSE. That would accomplish the same thing. Maybe Novell would host the backport repo, making it official? Linc Lincoln Rutledge Network Engineer OSC Networking 800-627-6420 this thread. I read that many responses to this release that I think the number of users must be extremly high. Most pointed out that they are not interested in cutting edge software but in stability. Don't you think a long time support release of opensuse will bring (more) people (back) to this great distribution?! Johannes -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Lincoln Rutledge escribió:
Anyone who wanted to do that could just host a repo and backport packages to the last couple of revs of OpenSUSE.
Your statement pretty much sums up what the average user thinks about the process of mantaining a set of packages, unfortunately, it is **far** from being like that, it is **way** more complex than "backport packages to the last couple of revs of OpenSUSE." -- “There is always some madness in love. But there is also always some reason in madness.” - Friedrich Nietzsche Cristian Rodríguez R. Platform/OpenSUSE - Core Services SUSE LINUX Products GmbH Research & Development http://www.opensuse.org/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. escribió:
Not if you sell a few thousand items :-p
nope. it is not enough, This is expensive to do, really. People needing LTS should just get SLES. -- "The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education." - Albert Einstein Cristian Rodríguez R. Platform/OpenSUSE - Core Services SUSE LINUX Products GmbH Research & Development http://www.opensuse.org/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Cristian Rodriguez a écrit :
jdd escribió:
there could be a medium point. I would be ready to pay a small fee ($10/year?) for security patches for kernel, apache, postfix and some very limited server apps.
I assume you are joking right ? so you really think a fee of $10 will be enough ? with $10 you dont even pay one man's hour !!
sles is $ a year for many more apps, so no I don't think it's not enough. An other answer said I can do it myself and it's what I plan to do, so why shouldn't somebody do this for a fee? the only problem is trust. This must be done by somebody trustable. May be a job opportunity for somebody else... jdd -- http://www.dodin.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
jdd a écrit :
Cristian Rodriguez a écrit :
jdd escribió:
there could be a medium point. I would be ready to pay a small fee ($10/year?) for security patches for kernel, apache, postfix and some very limited server apps.
I assume you are joking right ? so you really think a fee of $10 will be enough ? with $10 you dont even pay one man's hour !!
sles is $50 a year for (;;;) (sorry, number key not depressed :-)
jdd -- http://www.dodin.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 09:58:43 +0100, jdd wrote:
An other answer said I can do it myself and it's what I plan to do, so why shouldn't somebody do this for a fee?
Somebody may do it, but not Novell. Our developers are stressed enough by maintaining SLE. Besides, you don't really expect Novell to cut into its sales of maintenance by offering a LTSP openSUSE, do you? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Philipp Thomas a écrit :
On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 09:58:43 +0100, jdd wrote:
An other answer said I can do it myself and it's what I plan to do, so why shouldn't somebody do this for a fee?
Somebody may do it, but not Novell. Our developers are stressed enough by maintaining SLE.
this is up to you Besides, you don't really expect Novell to cut into
its sales of maintenance by offering a LTSP openSUSE, do you?
or opening a new market? what I see here is very different from SLES (much lighter, personal use goal) it should probably be nearly no work for Novell (just a very reduced set SLES, without DVD, without phone support, so just a new script for updates access) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 13 January 2008 03:57:37 am jdd wrote:
Besides, you don't really expect Novell to cut into
its sales of maintenance by offering a LTSP openSUSE, do you?
or opening a new market?
This is example of open mind, jdd. Open new market, employ new people, don't look how to cut existing cake in smaller pieces, make a new one.
what I see here is very different from SLES (much lighter, personal use goal) it should probably be nearly no work for Novell (just a very reduced set SLES, without DVD, without phone support, so just a new script for updates access)
Who will create updates, ie. backport changes? Who will maintain packages that are abandoned by original maintainers? I guess above mentioned new people. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Rajko M. a écrit :
Who will create updates, ie. backport changes? Who will maintain packages that are abandoned by original maintainers? I guess above mentioned new people.
Novell already do this for SLES/SLED, so making a light version would be a no work process. The only important thing is not to cut out the present SLED market, but as I see it it's should not. jdd -- http://www.dodin.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
jdd escribió:
so making a light version would be a no work process.
A "no work process" are you serious ? mantaining an LTS version pretty much involves hiring/creating a whole new team, mantaining and stable system running old software is a hell lot of work. what makes you think it would be a piece of cake ? -- "The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education." - Albert Einstein Cristian Rodríguez R. Platform/OpenSUSE - Core Services SUSE LINUX Products GmbH Research & Development http://www.opensuse.org/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Cristian Rodríguez a écrit :
jdd escribió:
so making a light version would be a no work process.
A "no work process" are you serious ? mantaining an LTS version pretty much involves hiring/creating a whole new team, mantaining and stable system running old software is a hell lot of work.
what makes you think it would be a piece of cake ?
it would be a no work process only for Novell who already do the job. I should only be a script to login with reduced rights on one SLES system one say it can be done by each one (and it's like this that many people do), this show it's not so hard... for real IT professional, what I'm not :-( As I see it, Novell should compare a professional install versus a personal one. Flag where the SLES price is spent (why is SLED so expensive versus SLED) and see if they can make a personal (SLEDP - P for "Personal") version much cheaper with little cost. But as I said, one can look at the already working LTS of the competitor and see if the bussines model is viable, I don't *require* anything. jdd -- http://www.dodin.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, Jan 14, 2008 at 08:01:33AM +0100, jdd wrote:
Cristian Rodríguez a écrit :
jdd escribió:
so making a light version would be a no work process.
A "no work process" are you serious ? mantaining an LTS version pretty much involves hiring/creating a whole new team, mantaining and stable system running old software is a hell lot of work.
what makes you think it would be a piece of cake ?
it would be a no work process only for Novell who already do the job.
It would be less money earned for us.
I should only be a script to login with reduced rights on one SLES system
one say it can be done by each one (and it's like this that many people do), this show it's not so hard... for real IT professional, what I'm not :-(
As I see it, Novell should compare a professional install versus a personal one. Flag where the SLES price is spent (why is SLED so expensive versus SLED) and see if they can make a personal (SLEDP - P for "Personal") version much cheaper with little cost.
But as I said, one can look at the already working LTS of the competitor and see if the bussines model is viable, I don't *require* anything.
You compare a publically held company to a billionaire with money burning in his pocket? Ciao, Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Marcus Meissner a écrit :
It would be less money earned for us.
As I said previously, it's not mandatory. What I mean is much simpler than SLED and may have much more customers, but of course it needs to not cut the SLED market (we are ok on this) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
jdd a écrit :
but of course it needs to not cut the SLED market (we are ok on this)
I have to apologize: I often mix SLES (server) which is in object here and SLED (desktop) SLED upates are reasonably cheap (a little too much for me, but I could afford it if necessary), and may be they are enough. is SLED (desktop) enough for a personal server?? thanks jdd -- http://www.dodin.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 14 January 2008 15:01:33 jdd wrote:
Cristian Rodríguez a écrit :
jdd escribió:
so making a light version would be a no work process.
A "no work process" are you serious ? mantaining an LTS version pretty much involves hiring/creating a whole new team, mantaining and stable system running old software is a hell lot of work.
what makes you think it would be a piece of cake ?
it would be a no work process only for Novell who already do the job. I should only be a script to login with reduced rights on one SLES system
In your opinion. Say there's a problem with the package that is released for openSUSE LTS, this then needs to be assigned to the engineering teams, who are already assigned to SLE and openSUSE thereby diluting the effort that can be spent here. Hint: Novell make money from SLE. The amounts that people have suggested for a 'license' for openSUSE LTS is not economically viable. And, how many releases of openSUSE would you want to be labelled as LTS? Every one? This would mean 'the openSUSE community' would have to keep supporting all the packages within all these releases. Not a viable proposition. The other suggestion of a limited number of packages that is maintained is equally no-go. What if an update to a 'supported' package breaks a non-supported package? The amount of work you're suggesting for the monetary return is just not possible.
one say it can be done by each one (and it's like this that many people do), this show it's not so hard... for real IT professional, what I'm not :-(
What you call 'not hard to do' actually requires a lot of work and time from the developers and engineers involved - not to mention the infrastructure costs that would be increased due to the increased amount of supported packages. As you say, you're not an IT professional, so maybe not best placed to judge this?
As I see it, Novell should compare a professional install versus a personal one. Flag where the SLES price is spent (why is SLED so expensive versus SLED) and see if they can make a personal (SLEDP - P for "Personal") version much cheaper with little cost.
I think you're asking why is SLES more expensive than SLED? I guess that's the nature of the pricing of servers in the market place. The cost of SLED is pretty low already, so I can't see the benefit of producing a lower cost version for personal use - that really would cannibalise SLED sales.
But as I said, one can look at the already working LTS of the competitor and see if the bussines model is viable, I don't *require* anything.
And just how much profit is this 'competitor' making? Answers on a post card please... It's all very easy to talk a good game when you're backed by a billionaire who can afford to make losses whilst building a brand. Novell can't do that - the SUSE brand already exists and cannibalising it makes no economic sense. Currently SLES is released for those who require the peace of mind of long term support and stability whilst openSUSE is available for more leading edge applications and to see where SLES will be heading. A SLES license isn't all that expensive in the grand scheme of things - if it seems that is, then you're not putting a high enough price on your data or infrastructure. Jon PS In case it's not already clear - these all are my own personal opinions, and in no way represent that of my employer. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 14 January 2008 02:42:53 am Jonathan Ervine wrote:
The cost of SLED is pretty low already, so I can't see the benefit of producing a lower cost version for personal use - that really would cannibalise SLED sales.
Original question by Johannes Nohl was about the server. Novell will never have customers like Johannes unless there is cheaper alternative to SLES. They can't afford full fledged product and they are tired to go trough update cycle every 2 years. Ideal opportunity to see what can be dropped from SLES, and make some money. Focus on sales killed many good products, pushing customers to competition. Thinking on shallow pockets that are majority of customers, and looking how to help them to get most for their money was never bad idea. I can remember that MS DOS was some 20% cheaper than IBM DOS, and that was good enough to buy MS product. When IBM later dropped DOS my decision to use MS DOS looked even better. MS lost me when they started to focus on sales. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
jdd escribió:
But as I said, one can look at the already working LTS of the competitor and see if the bussines model is viable, I don't *require* anything.
A competitor which does not invest any significant money in linux development and relies on the efforts of debian, not a nice example to follow IMHO. -- "The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education." - Albert Einstein Cristian Rodríguez R. WORKING BUT NOT SPEAKING FOR... Platform/OpenSUSE - Core Services SUSE LINUX Products GmbH Research & Development http://www.opensuse.org/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 jdd wrote: | Cristian Rodriguez a écrit : |> jdd escribió: |> |>> there could be a medium point. I would be ready to pay a small fee |>> ($10/year?) for security patches for kernel, apache, postfix and some |>> very limited server apps. |> |> I assume you are joking right ? so you really think a fee of $10 will |> be enough ? with $10 you dont even pay one man's hour !! |> |> | sles is $ a year for many more apps, so no I don't think it's not enough. | | An other answer said I can do it myself and it's what I plan to do, so | why shouldn't somebody do this for a fee? | | the only problem is trust. This must be done by somebody trustable. May | be a job opportunity for somebody else... | | jdd | im sure someone could probably do it, but you cant re distribute it without first stripping out the novell name everywhere it is seen inside opensuse. other distros do this with RHEL. im sure there are legalities and other hurdles as well, but that is the first to come to mind. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHikwR1L48K811Km0RAnZzAKCq8iadrVDQBxdTRmM8EhEMcikyOQCfWjNz nFG0uGJqKVIwFnzNC+JhFqs= =vlE1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Good discussion, so I just thought I would add my 2 cents... Ubuntu, SuSe, and Red Hat have different models. SLES and SLED are targeted toward the enterprise and include support options. They are also more stable releases. The paid-for OpenSuSE includes only installation assistance. Canonical is a commercial company that supports the Open Source Ubuntu family and provides support for a fee. I would suspect that if there were a reasonable demand, Novell could provide fee-based support services since the mechanism is there with SLED and SLES. Canonical provides 9-5 support desktop for 1 year at $ 293.76 and server support for $ 881.25. The difference is that SuSE and Red Hat both provide enterprise versions where Ubuntu provides a desktop and server version free of charge where you buy the support as an extra. The advantage of the SuSE model is that releases of OpenSuSE can be more cutting edge where releases of SLES and SLED are stable built on the experience learned from OpenSuSE. Just a different way of doing the same thing. -- -- Jerry Feldman <gaf@blu.org> Boston Linux and Unix PGP key id: 537C5846 PGP Key fingerprint: 3D1B 8377 A3C0 A5F2 ECBB CA3B 4607 4319 537C 5846
On Jan 16, 2008 10:02 AM, Jerry Feldman <gaf@blu.org> wrote:
Good discussion, so I just thought I would add my 2 cents... Ubuntu, SuSe, and Red Hat have different models. SLES and SLED are targeted toward the enterprise and include support options. They are also more stable releases. The paid-for OpenSuSE includes only installation assistance.
Actually, there is a lot of similarities between RH's and Novell's models, with one important part which is missing for Novell offerings: 1. Payed enterprise - RH Enterprise - SLED,SLES 2. Free community (bleeding edge) - Fedora - OpenSuse 3. Free enterp. - CentOS - xxxx I know, that RH has nothing to do with CentOS, and that CentOS is completely separate entity, but looks like RD are OK with it, as this provides free version of their enterprise product to test and use in small shops w/o support, etc. And if you already have installed base, and people familiar with the product - it is more likely to choose the original, when you have tto make large scale (and paid) deployment. So, what we really need is a group of enthusiasts to put the effort to create something similar from SLES. Even with a silent support of the idea from Novell. -- Svetoslav Milenov (Sunny) Even the most advanced equipment in the hands of the ignorant is just a pile of scrap. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Jan 16, 2008, at 8:02 AM, Jerry Feldman wrote:
Good discussion, so I just thought I would add my 2 cents... Ubuntu, SuSe, and Red Hat have different models. SLES and SLED are targeted toward the enterprise and include support options. They are also more stable releases. The paid-for OpenSuSE includes only installation assistance.
Canonical is a commercial company that supports the Open Source Ubuntu family and provides support for a fee. I would suspect that if there were a reasonable demand, Novell could provide fee-based support services since the mechanism is there with SLED and SLES. Canonical provides 9-5 support desktop for 1 year at $ 293.76 and server support for $ 881.25. The difference is that SuSE and Red Hat both provide enterprise versions where Ubuntu provides a desktop and server version free of charge where you buy the support as an extra. The advantage of the SuSE model is that releases of OpenSuSE can be more cutting edge where releases of SLES and SLED are stable built on the experience learned from OpenSuSE. Just a different way of doing the same thing.
--
SLED/SLES is worth it if you want stability and support. 3 years ago all the desktops here ran Windows. Now, more than half our desktop machines are deployed with SLED 10 SP1 or Mac OS X (and VMWare Fusion). This coincides with one production installation of SLES and five development build servers running SLES. I've only recently installed openSUSE 10.3 on my workstation just to test the latest features for use with our software in knowing that it will eventually trickle down into the Suse Enterprise versions. My first project was to port a large commercial app to SLES 9 on POWER! ;-) If you want "LTS" go for SLED or SLES. --Shawn -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
El dg 13 de 01 del 2008 a les 12:36 -0500, en/na steve va escriure:
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jdd wrote: | Cristian Rodriguez a écrit : |> jdd escribió: |> |>> there could be a medium point. I would be ready to pay a small fee |>> ($10/year?) for security patches for kernel, apache, postfix and some |>> very limited server apps. |> |> I assume you are joking right ? so you really think a fee of $10 will |> be enough ? with $10 you dont even pay one man's hour !! |> |> | sles is $ a year for many more apps, so no I don't think it's not enough. | | An other answer said I can do it myself and it's what I plan to do, so | why shouldn't somebody do this for a fee? | | the only problem is trust. This must be done by somebody trustable. May | be a job opportunity for somebody else... | | jdd | im sure someone could probably do it, but you cant re distribute it without first stripping out the novell name everywhere it is seen inside opensuse. other distros do this with RHEL. im sure there are legalities and other hurdles as well, but that is the first to come to mind.
The big difference between novell and redhat is that redhat publishes the SRPMS every time they release a new rpm (even for the updates). Novell does not do that. Novell publishes the srpm when it publishes the Service Packs, as they are freely downloadable. Only Novell customers can get the srpms of the updates and I am quite sure the SLA has some restrictions on recompiling them and redistribuing it. Am I wrong? Or I am allowed to do that if I am a Novell customer?
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
iD8DBQFHikwR1L48K811Km0RAnZzAKCq8iadrVDQBxdTRmM8EhEMcikyOQCfWjNz nFG0uGJqKVIwFnzNC+JhFqs= =vlE1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --
Jordi Massaguer i Pla openTrends Solucions i Sistemes, S.L. Torre Llacuna C/Llacuna 166, 10º 1ª A 08018 Barcelona Phone: (+34) 93 320 84 14 Fax: (+34) 93 300 35 27 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, Feb 04, 2008 at 10:55:11AM +0100, Jordi Massaguer Pla wrote:
El dg 13 de 01 del 2008 a les 12:36 -0500, en/na steve va escriure:
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jdd wrote: | Cristian Rodriguez a écrit : |> jdd escribió: |> |>> there could be a medium point. I would be ready to pay a small fee |>> ($10/year?) for security patches for kernel, apache, postfix and some |>> very limited server apps. |> |> I assume you are joking right ? so you really think a fee of $10 will |> be enough ? with $10 you dont even pay one man's hour !! |> |> | sles is $ a year for many more apps, so no I don't think it's not enough. | | An other answer said I can do it myself and it's what I plan to do, so | why shouldn't somebody do this for a fee? | | the only problem is trust. This must be done by somebody trustable. May | be a job opportunity for somebody else... | | jdd | im sure someone could probably do it, but you cant re distribute it without first stripping out the novell name everywhere it is seen inside opensuse. other distros do this with RHEL. im sure there are legalities and other hurdles as well, but that is the first to come to mind.
The big difference between novell and redhat is that redhat publishes the SRPMS every time they release a new rpm (even for the updates). Novell does not do that. Novell publishes the srpm when it publishes the Service Packs, as they are freely downloadable. Only Novell customers can get the srpms of the updates and I am quite sure the SLA has some restrictions on recompiling them and redistribuing it. Am I wrong? Or I am allowed to do that if I am a Novell customer?
I think you will notice that Redhat only publishes the SRPM to their RHN users too. As for any redistribution questions, please contact our sales folks. Ciao, Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
El dl 04 de 02 del 2008 a les 13:17 +0100, en/na Marcus Meissner va escriure:
On Mon, Feb 04, 2008 at 10:55:11AM +0100, Jordi Massaguer Pla wrote:
El dg 13 de 01 del 2008 a les 12:36 -0500, en/na steve va escriure:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
jdd wrote: | Cristian Rodriguez a écrit : |> jdd escribió: |> |>> there could be a medium point. I would be ready to pay a small fee |>> ($10/year?) for security patches for kernel, apache, postfix and some |>> very limited server apps. |> |> I assume you are joking right ? so you really think a fee of $10 will |> be enough ? with $10 you dont even pay one man's hour !! |> |> | sles is $ a year for many more apps, so no I don't think it's not enough. | | An other answer said I can do it myself and it's what I plan to do, so | why shouldn't somebody do this for a fee? | | the only problem is trust. This must be done by somebody trustable. May | be a job opportunity for somebody else... | | jdd | im sure someone could probably do it, but you cant re distribute it without first stripping out the novell name everywhere it is seen inside opensuse. other distros do this with RHEL. im sure there are legalities and other hurdles as well, but that is the first to come to mind.
The big difference between novell and redhat is that redhat publishes the SRPMS every time they release a new rpm (even for the updates). Novell does not do that. Novell publishes the srpm when it publishes the Service Packs, as they are freely downloadable. Only Novell customers can get the srpms of the updates and I am quite sure the SLA has some restrictions on recompiling them and redistribuing it. Am I wrong? Or I am allowed to do that if I am a Novell customer?
I think you will notice that Redhat only publishes the SRPM to their RHN users too.
As for any redistribution questions, please contact our sales folks.
Then, what is that? ftp://ftp.redhat.com/pub/redhat/linux/enterprise/5Client/en/os/SRPMS last update is from Jan-08 and: http://forgeftp.novell.com/sledsource/SLED-10-i386-srpms/src/ http://forgeftp.novell.com/sledsource/SLED-10-SP1-i386-srpms/src/ last update is from May-2007 That is the difference that makes CentOS possible. A distro based on the Enterprise version (so with the same quality and updates) but with a different suport model. jordi
Ciao, Marcus --
Jordi Massaguer i Pla openTrends Solucions i Sistemes, S.L. Torre Llacuna C/Llacuna 166, 10º 1ª A 08018 Barcelona Phone: (+34) 93 320 84 14 Fax: (+34) 93 300 35 27 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, 2008-01-13 at 00:19 +0100, jdd wrote:
Carlos E. R. a écrit :
Maintaining (backporting) apps for such a long time is costly, and that is why SLES is expensive, and not so feature rich.
there could be a medium point. I would be ready to pay a small fee ($10/year?) for security patches for kernel, apache, postfix and some very limited server apps.
Could even pay until $60 for one time (buy time) such support
for other apps, there is no need of long time support
jdd
Isn't SLES $60 one time for that support anyway? Why not just get that? -- Kevin "Yo" Dupuy | Public Email: <kevin@kevinsword.com> Happy New Year from Yo.media! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Kevin Dupuy a écrit :
On Sun, 2008-01-13 at 00:19 +0100, jdd wrote:
Carlos E. R. a écrit :
Maintaining (backporting) apps for such a long time is costly, and that is why SLES is expensive, and not so feature rich. there could be a medium point. I would be ready to pay a small fee ($10/year?) for security patches for kernel, apache, postfix and some very limited server apps.
Could even pay until $60 for one time (buy time) such support
for other apps, there is no need of long time support
jdd
Isn't SLES $60 one time for that support anyway? Why not just get that?
look at the price. SLES (server): http://shop.novell.com/store/novelleu/DisplayCategoryProductListPage/categor... SLED (desktop) is cheaper, but the amiunt is by year: http://shop.novell.com/store/novelleu/DisplayCategoryProductListPage/categor... I don't worry for my desktop, only for my server... jdd -- http://www.dodin.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Johannes Nohl escribió:
Saying LTS I mean Long Term Support as ubuntu people do.
I know there's SEL but I'm asking for the open Suse.
extremely unlikely I say.. ;-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Saying LTS I mean Long Term Support as ubuntu people do.
I know there's SEL but I'm asking for the open Suse.
extremely unlikely I say.. ;-)
So there's a conclusion. On one hand there's "bleeding edge" software resulting on short support terms. That's what I use and love on my personal desktop. I have Suse on my radar since I ever heard of linux. All distributions are a little bit different and (open)Suse was always my first choice. On the other hand little space in argumentation is left for non personal (really all except my desktop) use. So decision isn't made by license but made pragmatically. I'm not a professional admin but whenever I do something for somebody else I'm expected to give a foreseeing advice. If I'm setting up a web-server or mail-server for one of my projects there's no need for bleeding something. It is set up and expected to run longer that one and a half year. That's in fact the life cycle because you never meet the release date exactly. That applies even for desktop computers I set up for e.g. my parents. Of course it costs a lot to maintain. But I really feel that I - as an opensuse user not a SLE costumer - am more than a development tester for novell's business products. My service in return is to recommend novell's business products if ever somebody would asks me. Although I only have experience to opensuse I would argue that a great product can't be bad if it's sold. I did NOT understand ubuntu LTS as they would backport new software (except if security patches are only for the new versions) as mentioned. And they make difference between server and desktop. Really long is only the server supported. Server software isn't updated to often. When was the last bigger release from apache? From postfix?
From vsftp? From cyrus / courier / dovecot... Old samba still runs.
Ubuntu's first LTS release I took for marketing - they were pretty new then. But now they release a second. Virtualisation is nice but it isn't all. If I buy SLES I feel paying 90% of the costs for the hype virtualisation. Please *give it a try*. Declare core packages of 10.4 (or will it be 11?) as LTS. Not GUI packages but kernel, daemons and related. Give it it's own section on opensuse.org for community support. Provide a script which is telling me what will be lts'ed. The few remaining I can patch myself or maybe community does. Finally I will have to unlaern another flavor of linux. Sad. Johannes -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, 2008-01-13 at 17:50 +0100, Johannes Nohl wrote:
Saying LTS I mean Long Term Support as ubuntu people do.
I know there's SEL but I'm asking for the open Suse.
extremely unlikely I say.. ;-)
So there's a conclusion.
On one hand there's "bleeding edge" software resulting on short support terms. That's what I use and love on my personal desktop. I have Suse on my radar since I ever heard of linux. All distributions are a little bit different and (open)Suse was always my first choice.
On the other hand little space in argumentation is left for non personal (really all except my desktop) use. So decision isn't made by license but made pragmatically. I'm not a professional admin but whenever I do something for somebody else I'm expected to give a foreseeing advice. If I'm setting up a web-server or mail-server for one of my projects there's no need for bleeding something. It is set up and expected to run longer that one and a half year. That's in fact the life cycle because you never meet the release date exactly. That applies even for desktop computers I set up for e.g. my parents.
Of course it costs a lot to maintain. But I really feel that I - as an opensuse user not a SLE costumer - am more than a development tester for novell's business products. My service in return is to recommend novell's business products if ever somebody would asks me. Although I only have experience to opensuse I would argue that a great product can't be bad if it's sold.
I did NOT understand ubuntu LTS as they would backport new software (except if security patches are only for the new versions) as mentioned. And they make difference between server and desktop. Really long is only the server supported. Server software isn't updated to often. When was the last bigger release from apache? From postfix?
From vsftp? From cyrus / courier / dovecot... Old samba still runs.
Ubuntu's first LTS release I took for marketing - they were pretty new then. But now they release a second.
Virtualisation is nice but it isn't all. If I buy SLES I feel paying 90% of the costs for the hype virtualisation.
Please *give it a try*. Declare core packages of 10.4 (or will it be 11?) as LTS. Not GUI packages but kernel, daemons and related. Give it it's own section on opensuse.org for community support. Provide a script which is telling me what will be lts'ed. The few remaining I can patch myself or maybe community does.
Finally I will have to unlaern another flavor of linux. Sad.
Johannes
Hi Johannes, Like i mentioned to jdd, there is nothing against using any version of sle/prof/open and keep on using it (one of my machines is still running RH-7.3), doing the bare maintenance upgrades yourself. Afterall, all the key-components are all "open". And all of it (and its updates) are to be found on the net. You call virtualisation "nice" and "a hype". well perhaps its nothing for you but for me, it decimated the number of servers i have to maintain. Slightly more difficult from a SW point of view, but a true heaven considering the hardware and all the troubles surrounding it. And then i don't even mention the possibilities of having several versions of SuSE, RH, and M$ concurrently and savely seperated. Only valid statement was that older version can be used on old machines with less cpu-power and/or mem. And even here the developpers are trying to put newer versions to a stricter diet (at least for the text-based installations) So even here there is hope on the horizon... Main reason imho for suse to limit the support is not to spread out the number of people over the number supported versions. (In contrast to other distro's, they DO test, you know) Nice to suggest that it might be taken-over by the community, but i am afraid that that doesn't work. If not convinced, have a look at the buildservice: many addon repo's are only build for the latest versions. And even if the were build for an much older release, how could they test it? Or do you suggest that for your good old SuSE-x.y, all the community-delevoppers must have all the different versions up and running to be able to test? Did not think so... So either you're willing to follow the latest versions of postfix/sendmail/apache/iptables/openssh/what ever or.. just use OpenSuSE, enjoy the updates and do a reinstall every 3 years Actually, come to think about it, most COTS-hardware has a everage life-cycle of three years, so after such period you should have plans to move anyway. hw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
"Johannes Nohl" <johannes.nohl@gmail.com> writes:
Saying LTS I mean Long Term Support as ubuntu people do.
I know there's SEL but I'm asking for the open Suse. I'm configuring a new webserver right now. And I'm seriosly thinking about waiting for the next ubuntu LTS. I always ran the machines longer than two years. Often the contract duration for the dedicated hardware is two years yet. And although upgrading worked so far for me there were always small changes which you couldn't see in advance, like postfix complaining about file permissions.
I really enjoy OpenSuse but a life cycle of two years is - except for desktops - to short. Not every release has to be supported long term but what about every third? Couldn't the life cycle be 4.5 years?
Novell offers the SUSE Linux Enterprise Server and Desktop products which are basically LTS versions - but you need to pay for them. On the other hand, with the build service it would be possible for community members to support an openSUSE release for a longer term than we're doing and create an own update channel. Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Director Platform / openSUSE, aj@suse.de SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126
Novell offers the SUSE Linux Enterprise Server and Desktop products which are basically LTS versions - but you need to pay for them.
I know. You should do your business. Your earnings ensure OPENsuse's progress.
On the other hand, with the build service it would be possible for community members to support an openSUSE release for a longer term than we're doing and create an own update channel.
To be realistic it ins't a question of community only. Somebody mentioned already that community tends to support recent releases. That's true, probably. But even if there would be support by them I would have need to know it before life cycle ends. I still think you could give it a try. Otherwise me and maybe others will have to turn away from opensuse, finally. If I want to or not. If somebody asks me about a system living longer I have to say: Yes there's one. Recently I read an article about managed servers. In summary it was saying that most systems were old and therefor they have security issues. They will, I'm sure, use LTS'ed distributions in future. Self administrated systems will follow... In the end people will say: linux? That's debian and its derivates. Johannes -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
participants (55)
-
Aaron Kulkis -
Alexey Eremenko -
Andreas Jaeger -
Benji Weber -
Billie Walsh -
Bob S -
Carlos E. R. -
Carlos F. Lange -
Ciro Iriarte -
Clayton -
Cristian Rodriguez -
Cristian Rodríguez
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Dave Howorth -
David Bolt -
Doug McGarrett -
Druid -
G T Smith -
Hans defaber -
Hans Witvliet -
James Knott -
James Tremblay -
JB2 -
jdd -
Jerry Feldman -
Johannes Nohl -
John Bennett -
Jonathan Ervine -
Jordi Massaguer Pla -
Ken Schneider -
Kevin Dupuy -
Lars Marowsky-Bree -
Lincoln Rutledge -
Marcus Meissner -
Michael Loeffler -
Michael Skiba -
Michael Smith -
Nick Zeljkovic -
Ortwin Ebhardt -
Patrick Shanahan -
PerfectReign -
peter -
Philip Dowie -
Philipp Thomas -
Philippe Landau -
Rajko M. -
Randall R Schulz -
Russ Fineman -
Shawn Protsman -
Stefan Hundhammer -
steve -
Sunny -
Tero Pesonen -
The Magic Nose Goblin -
Thomas Schraitle -
Wolfgang Woehl