"Kim C. Callis" wrote:

but I thought I would start from scratch. I looked at a message where the sender was replying to a YASQ (Yet Another Stupid Question). In this message, this person pretty much says that the person who posted the question should ahve did a better job of researching before asking the question to the group. Further the sender goes on to talk about the time

This is very disappointing! I have been playing with linux since 0.13

am overly smart about it, but because there are people out there who are

willing to share the knowledge.

It galls me to see people become so arrogant, that they don't have the time to answer YASQ. Of course the only stupid question is the one that

There are some folks out there who have been using Linux and UNIX for a very long time. On the other hand, a lot of out new converts come from PC environment with a MS (as in Monolithic Software) Windows interface or the

Party on dudes and dudettes, and be excellent to one another!

The SuSe email list is one of the "friendliest around" I'm probably an intermediate Linux user. I still ask dumb questions that have been asked before for a couple of reasons. 1. When it was originally asked, it didn't pertain to my system and now it does. I'm looking for a quick answer, not hours of searching Deja-News or the Suse-database. 2. I forgot some command, and need a quick reminder. 3. I need a concept explained to me. These email lists are like "The Free University of the Internet". All sorts of brains and experience are linked electronically in a "semi-real-time". It's better than TV, except at playoff time. :-) - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e Check out the SuSE-FAQ at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A">http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A</A>> and the archiv at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A">http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A</A>>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On 08-Jan-99 Michael Johnson wrote about the following Re: [SuSE Linux] Disappointing responses : || || On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Kim C. Callis wrote: || > to create more clued in user, not tell them in effect, "You are a || > lame, || > that was a lame question and you need to go RTFM, if you want to know || > the || > answer!". || || I really don't even think RTFM is an insult. I think it's a pointer to || stay grounded and use the many resources that are available to help || oneself. Is it really bad to say RTFM, if that's what a person needs || to || hear? || -M Of course the real problem is that there is no de-facto manual for linux. Once you wade through texinfo files, /usr/doc pages, howtos, mini-howtos, only to find that the answer is really located on someone's web page, it can become slightly discouraging. All I am saying is that mentorship can occur without seeming hostility in answers. I am a proponent of reading manuals, but that doesn't cause me to hesitate to give someone a pointer to thier solution. As the old Chinese proverb goes, "If you catch a fish for a man, you feed him for one day; If you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime.". Just food for thought! - --- Kim C. Callis -- kcc@ziplink.net ********************************* * When it absolutely, * * Positively has to be * * Destroyed over night! * * * * (800) MARINES * ********************************* -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBNpbHaSaI5lr1ZTHJAQF+qQQArqvsqaksl0vPlKNOyPhsIcjVhCsWz6wc gYgAHK3eWDXN78/lRkRPffvC8Hm+waEIbbEUKpQ7iPCyiSc5jjd8bXzWxIir3VKw CJPtSkoWirMw7dfwazVQUvzjS8b35Gu9k78GNAoNechKHE59xCPzBQ58GS0Cxbrl zL1crpdAfyg= =+cj6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e Check out the SuSE-FAQ at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A">http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A</A>> and the archiv at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A">http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A</A>>

On Sat, 9 Jan 1999, Leon McClatchey wrote:

hi:-0 Michael Johnson wrote: Actually, "RTFM" is an old habit that is deeply rooted in Microsoft and related fields, because as far as Linux is concerned, sometimes "TFM" isn't quite as obvious. and so you have to go to other sources for the information. I'm fairly new to Linux (only been actively playing with it now for perhaps 6 months or so, (or however long that Suse 5.1 has been available). And there are some questions that are just not available via man -k ?. I've got about 3 Linux/Unix books floating around here and even with that information at hand, for some of the questions that I have come across, I've had to get the answer from the good folks on this list and other places on the internet. So perhaps in Linux, "RTFM" is not really applicable?

RTFM is not a Linux-ism, but a Unix-ism, and that precedes the Micro$oft power monopolies. I think there is an old thing in Unix culture that delights in being 'smarter than the other guy' and there can be a dangerous pride in obscurity, which I think may be where RTFM originated--in a certain intellectual arrogance that you find in technical gifted people. Microsoft, is a different culture with different originating soil. Unix was meant to be good. Microsoft was simply meant to be commercially successful. The shift is not so much one of content but of priority. I honestly don't believe M$ really cares that their products suck. They just want to get as much money as possible. They know dos shell was just a whore that was a unix shell rip off and a badly done one at that. But unix people want it to be done RIGHT FIRST. M$ people just want to get it done _enough_ to get some money, and figure when people complain they can get more money but just releasing 'improvements' for what they screwed up out of shiftlessness in the first place, so with M$ you always wind up with a half-cooked steak they call an 'operating system' where nothing works as it's supposed to. This pride in The Right Thing and technical soundness is what makes Unix kewl, and what makes Linux Kewl.This pride in the technical nature of Unix and it's spin offs is probably where the arrogance comes from: knowing you've got your shit together and that the system truly rocks and does it's frigging job. This different mentality is at the heart of software culture, I think, and it shows in the products and abilities latent to both oses. I think a good example of this history is analogous to a joke I once read in a book on NeXT, where one of the programmers says something about not wanting to deal with the 'common man' and that it was different from dealing with other hackers: in a normal society at a common function someone tells a joke and people laugh... among hackers, one simply tells the joke _number_ and everyone laughs without the joke even being told-- cause they automatically know what you mean. :-) -M - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e Check out the SuSE-FAQ at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A">http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A</A>> and the archiv at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A">http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A</A>>

Kim C. Callis wrote:

It galls me to see people become so arrogant, that they don't have the time to answer YASQ. Of course the only stupid question is the one that goes unasked. I have made it a standard policy to give a basic answer and then guide the questioner to the appropriate man page, ect. This the way to create more clued in user, not tell them in effect, "You are a lame, that was a lame question and you need to go RTFM, if you want to know the answer!".

Well, in general yes, that's how I look at it myself. Occasionally you see a posting from someone who obviously hasn't even tried looking at the most basic documentation before asking a very basic question. And very occasionally you see someone asking for not just one little answer but something that would fill a whole book, or even thousand's worth of consultancy relating to their specific question (e.g . "somebody tell me exactly everything I need to do to make my network secure"). Sometimes these questions are asked in innocence and so you gently point them in the right direction. But sometimes you can almost smell an attitude problem in the way the posting is worded, that the author is one of those people who simply expects everything to be done for them, probably because of the way they were brought up. And sometimes (worse still) it's a poster who is barely able to conceal his excitement at getting such great stuff software for next to nothing, and is now almost beside himself because he's found that there are even people who will work out all the difficult stuff for him, completely for free! That's the sort of person who isn't short of money but bums cigarettes of you and never buys their own, who always accepts a beer when offered but never buys a round himself. Sorry, but people like that make my skin crawl. I'm probably not the only one to feel like that. Many people on this list, myself included, are able to help anyone who's willing to do some of the work themselves. But some of us may have little sympathy for people who come across as unremittingly lazy or greedy. Obviously mistakes can be made when one is making judgements on such scanty evidence, but that's life basically. So for those newbie lurkers reading this now - when you get around to posting a question, make sure you get your presentation right! Ralph Clark -- rclark@virgosolutions.demon.co.uk Ralph Clark, Virgo Solutions Ltd (UK) __ _ / / (_)__ __ ____ __ * Powerful * Flexible * Compatible * Reliable * / /__/ / _ \/ // /\ \/ / *Well Supported * Thousands of New Users Every Day* /____/_/_//_/\_,_/ /_/\_\ The Cost Effective Choice - Linux Means Business! - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e Check out the SuSE-FAQ at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A">http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A</A>> and the archiv at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A">http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A</A>>

In message <<A HREF="msg00615.html">369687CA.FE548C8@virgosolutions.demon.co.uk</A>>, Ralph Clark <rclark@virgosolutions.demon.co.uk> writes

.

Many people on this list, myself included, are able to help anyone who's willing to do some of the work themselves. But some of us may have little sympathy for people who come across as unremittingly lazy or greedy. Obviously mistakes can be made when one is making judgements on such scanty evidence, but that's life basically.

So for those newbie lurkers reading this now - when you get around to posting a question, make sure you get your presentation right!

Right. Doubtless there are - like in any other sphere of life - pathological takers. But have you thought that maybe - just maybe - some of us newbie lurkers out here might not know - did *you* always? - the ramifications of the question we're asking? I think your attitude could put a lot of people off asking, rather than encourage them. And what's the point in that? All you have to do with those you suspect of being 'unremittingly lazy or greedy' is ignore them. -- Jeff Grant - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e Check out the SuSE-FAQ at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A">http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A</A>> and the archiv at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A">http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A</A>>

Jeremy Blosser wrote:

Jeff Grant [risingbird@phoenix-inc.demon.co.uk] wrote:

...

In message <<A HREF="msg00615.html">369687CA.FE548C8@virgosolutions.demon.co.uk</A>>, Ralph Clark <rclark@virgosolutions.demon.co.uk> writes

...

Many people on this list, myself included, are able to help anyone who's willing to do some of the work themselves. But some of us may have little sympathy for people who come across as unremittingly lazy or greedy. Obviously mistakes can be made when one is making judgements on such scanty evidence, but that's life basically.

So for those newbie lurkers reading this now - when you get around to posting a question, make sure you get your presentation right!

Right. Doubtless there are - like in any other sphere of life - pathological takers. But have you thought that maybe - just maybe - some of us newbie lurkers out here might not know - did *you* always? - the ramifications of the question we're asking? I think your attitude could put a lot of people off asking, rather than encourage them. And what's the point in that? All you have to do with those you suspect of being 'unremittingly lazy or greedy' is ignore them.

The point is that we don't have unlimited time and resources to answer all of your questions that we had to read and do the effort to find answers for.

Some concrete examples of questions that will likely get nice help: 1) "Hi, I've checked the available documentation, but I can't seem to find the answer I need. Could someone give me a hand or point me in the right direction if I'm just missing something? <detailed description of problem, including relevant details>." 2) "Hi, I'm new to Linux... can someone tell me where to find more inforation about <topic or problem>."

Example of questions that will probably get an RTFM: 1) "I just installed Lunix and I need to know how to make my system totally secure SOMEONE TELL ME HOW." 2) "How do I make WP8 underline things?" 3) "My monitor won't work with X Windows, how do I fix it?" (this prolly won't get an RTFM as much as a request for more detail -- what kind of monitor, what have you tried, etc -- and if these requests are met with a "I don't know why should it matter HELP ME NOW" response, they'll prolly not get much more help.)

Yes we all know that we used to be newbies. Yes there is a matter of arrogance and pissing contests in this community, esp when dealing with newbies. There is also a matter of frustration when dealing with newbies, though. You need to remember that we all have only limited time, and it is frustrating to answer the same questions over and over when the answers are cleary documented (if it's an FAQ, there is prolly a FAQ document that contains it), simply because people haven't bothered to do any of their own checking. We're glad to help people that really need our help, but we aren't tech support robots. It's a waste of our time to answer the same basic questions over and over... time that could be better spent answering more difficult questions and continuing to gain knowledge ourselves. It is frustrating to feel that you're being taken for granted or taken advantage of, even if the other person isn't doing it maliciously or deliberately.

For those that claim that in the Linux world RTFM doesn't apply because there is no single manual... I'm sorry, but that's just bogus. There are some basic sources of info for any problem that you can check. If they don't have the answer, they will likely contain pointers to more places to look.

We're not expecting everyone to have read every book on Linux before asking a question. We're asking them to help us help them and others by first looking at the things we've done to make helping them easier (FAQs, the LDP, etc).

For any given problem, you can check: 1) relevant man/info pages 2) other relevant FAQs/READMEs/manuals 3) the LDP: <A HREF="http://metalab.unc.edu/LDP/"><A HREF="http://metalab.unc.edu/LDP/</A">http://metalab.unc.edu/LDP/</A</A>> 4) archives for relevant mailing lists/newgroups 5) postings to relevant mailing lists/newsgroups 6) the program/process' author/maintainer/contact person

Note that lists like this are #5 on that list, and only after checking the archives. Yeah, we won't get everyone to always do all of that, and some man pages/etc are just beyond some people, but if people would at least make the effort, a lot of wasted time and repeated effort wouldn't happen.

-- Jeremy Blosser | jblosser@firinn.org | <A HREF="http://jblosser.firinn.org/"><A HREF="http://jblosser.firinn.org/</A">http://jblosser.firinn.org/</A</A>>

You're absolutely right, that suns up the situation very well IMHO. Why don't you make a shorter version of this post, including that 6-point checklist (but with the bit about checking the past archives of the mailing list first more explicit) and post it to the list every week? I think it would be helpful to the newbies. Ralph -- rclark@virgosolutions.demon.co.uk Ralph Clark, Virgo Solutions Ltd (UK) __ _ / / (_)__ __ ____ __ * Powerful * Flexible * Compatible * Reliable * / /__/ / _ \/ // /\ \/ / *Well Supported * Thousands of New Users Every Day* /____/_/_//_/\_,_/ /_/\_\ The Cost Effective Choice - Linux Means Business! - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e Check out the SuSE-FAQ at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A">http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A</A>> and the archiv at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A">http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A</A>>

<PRE> **MESSAGE FROM THE TPC.INT SINKHOLE** We regret to inform you that the phone number you attempted to reach is not currently being served by a remote printer operator. Your original message is attached so that you may send it by alternative means. We hope to have coverage in this area -- perhaps you know somebody who could operate a remote printer server? Does your ISP provide fax coverage in your local area? If not, perhaps they would benefit by setting up a fax server and joining TPC.INT. Speak with your ISP and show them why they might want to come online as a TPC "cell": <A HREF="http://www.tpc.int/servers/salespitch.html"><A HREF="http://www.tpc.int/servers/salespitch.html</A">http://www.tpc.int/servers/salespitch.html</A</A>> It's possible of course that you have not composed the TPC.INT-style address correctly, so here's a few examples. Note that we do not use international dialing codes but we do require the country codes. Example1: remote-printer.Arlington_Hewes/Room_403@441813434622.iddd.tpc.int (to send a fax to Arlington Hewes in Room 403, at the FAX number, in England (where the country code is 44), of +44 181 3434622) Example2: remote-printer.Paul_Katz/The_Manor@19025842817.iddd.tpc.int (to send a fax to Paul Katz in The Manor at the FAX number, in North America (where the country code is 1) of +1 902 584 2817) If you're still unclear on the address format we require, please send for a copy of the FAQ, or visit our WWW pages. *****PLEASE NOTE******* TPC.INT does not consider unsolicited commercial mass mailings an acceptable use of the network. Individuals suspected of abusing this policy will be banned from using it pending investigation. We regret that such measures are necessary, but abuse of TPC.INT can force cells to close, and must be prevented when possible. Please be considerate - TPC.INT is for everyone. *********************** Regards, Mr. Arlington Hewes tpcadmin@info.tpc.int The TPC.INT Subdomain <A HREF="http://www.tpc.int/"><A HREF="http://www.tpc.int/</A">http://www.tpc.int/</A</A>> ************************************************** *** FOR GENERAL INFORMATION *** *** <A HREF="mailto:tpcfaq@info.tpc.int">mailto:tpcfaq@info.tpc.int</A> *** *** FOR A LIST OF CURRENT COVERAGE *** *** <A HREF="mailto:tpccover@info.tpc.int">mailto:tpccover@info.tpc.int</A> *** *** TO REPORT A PROBLEM (read the FAQ first!) *** *** <A HREF="mailto:support@info.tpc.int">mailto:support@info.tpc.int</A> *** ************************************************** </PRE> <DL> <DT><STRONG>Warning</STRONG></DT> <DD>Could not process part with given Content-Type: <CODE>multipart/signed; boundary=rV8arf8D5Dod9UkK; micalg=pgp-md5;protocol="application/pgp-signature"</CODE> </DD> </DL>

<PRE> **MESSAGE FROM THE TPC.INT SINKHOLE** We regret to inform you that the phone number you attempted to reach is not currently being served by a remote printer operator. Your original message is attached so that you may send it by alternative means. We hope to have coverage in this area -- perhaps you know somebody who could operate a remote printer server? Does your ISP provide fax coverage in your local area? If not, perhaps they would benefit by setting up a fax server and joining TPC.INT. Speak with your ISP and show them why they might want to come online as a TPC "cell": <A HREF="http://www.tpc.int/servers/salespitch.html"><A HREF="http://www.tpc.int/servers/salespitch.html</A">http://www.tpc.int/servers/salespitch.html</A</A>> It's possible of course that you have not composed the TPC.INT-style address correctly, so here's a few examples. Note that we do not use international dialing codes but we do require the country codes. Example1: remote-printer.Arlington_Hewes/Room_403@441813434622.iddd.tpc.int (to send a fax to Arlington Hewes in Room 403, at the FAX number, in England (where the country code is 44), of +44 181 3434622) Example2: remote-printer.Paul_Katz/The_Manor@19025842817.iddd.tpc.int (to send a fax to Paul Katz in The Manor at the FAX number, in North America (where the country code is 1) of +1 902 584 2817) If you're still unclear on the address format we require, please send for a copy of the FAQ, or visit our WWW pages. *****PLEASE NOTE******* TPC.INT does not consider unsolicited commercial mass mailings an acceptable use of the network. Individuals suspected of abusing this policy will be banned from using it pending investigation. We regret that such measures are necessary, but abuse of TPC.INT can force cells to close, and must be prevented when possible. Please be considerate - TPC.INT is for everyone. *********************** Regards, Mr. Arlington Hewes tpcadmin@info.tpc.int The TPC.INT Subdomain <A HREF="http://www.tpc.int/"><A HREF="http://www.tpc.int/</A">http://www.tpc.int/</A</A>> ************************************************** *** FOR GENERAL INFORMATION *** *** <A HREF="mailto:tpcfaq@info.tpc.int">mailto:tpcfaq@info.tpc.int</A> *** *** FOR A LIST OF CURRENT COVERAGE *** *** <A HREF="mailto:tpccover@info.tpc.int">mailto:tpccover@info.tpc.int</A> *** *** TO REPORT A PROBLEM (read the FAQ first!) *** *** <A HREF="mailto:support@info.tpc.int">mailto:support@info.tpc.int</A> *** ************************************************** </PRE> <PRE> **MESSAGE FROM THE TPC.INT SINKHOLE** We regret to inform you that the phone number you attempted to reach is not currently being served by a remote printer operator. Your original message is attached so that you may send it by alternative means. We hope to have coverage in this area -- perhaps you know somebody who could operate a remote printer server? Does your ISP provide fax coverage in your local area? If not, perhaps they would benefit by setting up a fax server and joining TPC.INT. Speak with your ISP and show them why they might want to come online as a TPC "cell": <A HREF="http://www.tpc.int/servers/salespitch.html"><A HREF="http://www.tpc.int/servers/salespitch.html</A">http://www.tpc.int/servers/salespitch.html</A</A>> It's possible of course that you have not composed the TPC.INT-style address correctly, so here's a few examples. Note that we do not use international dialing codes but we do require the country codes. Example1: remote-printer.Arlington_Hewes/Room_403@441813434622.iddd.tpc.int (to send a fax to Arlington Hewes in Room 403, at the FAX number, in England (where the country code is 44), of +44 181 3434622) Example2: remote-printer.Paul_Katz/The_Manor@19025842817.iddd.tpc.int (to send a fax to Paul Katz in The Manor at the FAX number, in North America (where the country code is 1) of +1 902 584 2817) If you're still unclear on the address format we require, please send for a copy of the FAQ, or visit our WWW pages. *****PLEASE NOTE******* TPC.INT does not consider unsolicited commercial mass mailings an acceptable use of the network. Individuals suspected of abusing this policy will be banned from using it pending investigation. We regret that such measures are necessary, but abuse of TPC.INT can force cells to close, and must be prevented when possible. Please be considerate - TPC.INT is for everyone. *********************** Regards, Mr. Arlington Hewes tpcadmin@info.tpc.int The TPC.INT Subdomain <A HREF="http://www.tpc.int/"><A HREF="http://www.tpc.int/</A">http://www.tpc.int/</A</A>> ************************************************** *** FOR GENERAL INFORMATION *** *** <A HREF="mailto:tpcfaq@info.tpc.int">mailto:tpcfaq@info.tpc.int</A> *** *** FOR A LIST OF CURRENT COVERAGE *** *** <A HREF="mailto:tpccover@info.tpc.int">mailto:tpccover@info.tpc.int</A> *** *** TO REPORT A PROBLEM (read the FAQ first!) *** *** <A HREF="mailto:support@info.tpc.int">mailto:support@info.tpc.int</A> *** ************************************************** </PRE> <PRE> **MESSAGE FROM THE TPC.INT SINKHOLE** We regret to inform you that the phone number you attempted to reach is not currently being served by a remote printer operator. Your original message is attached so that you may send it by alternative means. We hope to have coverage in this area -- perhaps you know somebody who could operate a remote printer server? Does your ISP provide fax coverage in your local area? If not, perhaps they would benefit by setting up a fax server and joining TPC.INT. Speak with your ISP and show them why they might want to come online as a TPC "cell": <A HREF="http://www.tpc.int/servers/salespitch.html"><A HREF="http://www.tpc.int/servers/salespitch.html</A">http://www.tpc.int/servers/salespitch.html</A</A>> It's possible of course that you have not composed the TPC.INT-style address correctly, so here's a few examples. Note that we do not use international dialing codes but we do require the country codes. Example1: remote-printer.Arlington_Hewes/Room_403@441813434622.iddd.tpc.int (to send a fax to Arlington Hewes in Room 403, at the FAX number, in England (where the country code is 44), of +44 181 3434622) Example2: remote-printer.Paul_Katz/The_Manor@19025842817.iddd.tpc.int (to send a fax to Paul Katz in The Manor at the FAX number, in North America (where the country code is 1) of +1 902 584 2817) If you're still unclear on the address format we require, please send for a copy of the FAQ, or visit our WWW pages. *****PLEASE NOTE******* TPC.INT does not consider unsolicited commercial mass mailings an acceptable use of the network. Individuals suspected of abusing this policy will be banned from using it pending investigation. We regret that such measures are necessary, but abuse of TPC.INT can force cells to close, and must be prevented when possible. Please be considerate - TPC.INT is for everyone. *********************** Regards, Mr. Arlington Hewes tpcadmin@info.tpc.int The TPC.INT Subdomain <A HREF="http://www.tpc.int/"><A HREF="http://www.tpc.int/</A">http://www.tpc.int/</A</A>> ************************************************** *** FOR GENERAL INFORMATION *** *** <A HREF="mailto:tpcfaq@info.tpc.int">mailto:tpcfaq@info.tpc.int</A> *** *** FOR A LIST OF CURRENT COVERAGE *** *** <A HREF="mailto:tpccover@info.tpc.int">mailto:tpccover@info.tpc.int</A> *** *** TO REPORT A PROBLEM (read the FAQ first!) *** *** <A HREF="mailto:support@info.tpc.int">mailto:support@info.tpc.int</A> *** ************************************************** </PRE> <DL> <DT><STRONG>Warning</STRONG></DT> <DD>Could not process part with given Content-Type: <CODE>multipart/signed; boundary=rV8arf8D5Dod9UkK; micalg=pgp-md5;protocol="application/pgp-signature"</CODE> </DD> </DL>

I'm sorry, the mailbox for listbox@jules.com is currently full. Please try again later. Thank you. - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e Check out the SuSE-FAQ at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A">http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A</A>> and the archiv at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A">http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A</A>>

I don't know exactly how your drives are set up, but I'm guessing you have three IDE devices in your computer, your cd-rom being /dev/hdc. /dev/hdc is the actual device, while /dev/cdrom is there to make things easier for you, it's supposed to eliminate confusion as to which device is your cd-rom. Chris Martin wrote:

Does anyone know why I have this? (likely a silly question):

RomperRoom:/dev # ls -l cdrom lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 3 Dec 5 11:03 cdrom -> hdc

I was having trouble accessing my CDRom as non-root, and it turns out that it was because the permissions on /dev/hdc weren't set correctly even though those for /dev/cdrom were.

thanks,

chris

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Chris Martin wrote:

Does anyone know why I have this? (likely a silly question):

RomperRoom:/dev # ls -l cdrom lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 3 Dec 5 11:03 cdrom -> hdc

I was having trouble accessing my CDRom as non-root, and it turns out that it was because the permissions on /dev/hdc weren't set correctly even though those for /dev/cdrom were.

Basically, cdrom is a symlink, a shortcut if your familar to Windows, or an alias if your familar to Macintosh. The privleges of the symlink don't always reflect the privleges of the file they link to, in your case the drive. As a standard, when a symlink is created, it gives all users/groups access to the symlink, but the actual permissions still reside on the file/drive it links to. The purpose of a symlink is give the user something easier to type without knowing the exact path to the file/drive in question. ie: /cdrom instead of /dev/hdc sometime after you configure your system, will you remember that /dev/hdc is your cdrom as readily as you can remember /cdrom is? -- Ec|ipse on EFnet - tomas@primenet.com - <A HREF="http://www.primenet.com/~tomas"><A HREF="http://www.primenet.com/~tomas</A">http://www.primenet.com/~tomas</A</A>> Ec|ipse@|Watcher| - <A HREF="http://pacific.undertow.net/~tomas/no-net.html"><A HREF="http://pacific.undertow.net/~tomas/no-net.html</A">http://pacific.undertow.net/~tomas/no-net.html</A</A>> Slackware Linux v3.6 - Kernels 2.0.35/2.1.131 - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e Check out the SuSE-FAQ at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A">http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A</A>> and the archiv at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A">http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A</A>>