Hi all. I am soon to embark on a flurry of system documentation. As a part of this, diagrams showing the layout of both hardware, software, data flow and processing will be done. The things to be presented are rather complicated in that there are many components and many connections between the components. I have done diagrams in the past, but have never been wowed by the software. I'm sure a part of that is my experience with the software. But I think that I might also have chosen poorly. Right tool for the task and all that. So, I am looking at the alternatives. My preference is something that runs on multiple platforms (Linux and Windows). To be honest, a Web tool it not out of the question. Except it would be nice to have the diagrams saved locally for use over a long period of time. It is not a one off thing. These diagrams need to be maintained and by perhaps more than one person. At least over time. Interactive diagrams where the viewer can click and get more details or related diagrams would be nice. Having everything in a monster diagram seems like a bad approach. On the other hand, including the diagrams in other documents that might not be dynamic is needed. So, if you have used any such tools (especially on Linux), what are your experiences? And I expecting too much? I have looked at programs like dia. It seems rather basic. But that might just be my knowledge of what it can do. I have also used programs that let you specify the diagram in a text file and it lays out the diagram. That has been fine for simple diagrams. But when the diagrams reach any realistic complexity, the layout is often something that one must struggle with. All pointers are welcome. I have looked at various discussions of this but they are typically so superficial that they provide no real information. I am willing to investigate alternatives. -- Roger Oberholtzer
Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
So, if you have used any such tools (especially on Linux), what are your experiences? And I expecting too much? I have looked at programs like dia. It seems rather basic. But that might just be my knowledge of what it can do. I have also used programs that let you specify the diagram in a text file and it lays out the diagram. That has been fine for simple diagrams. But when the diagrams reach any realistic complexity, the layout is often something that one must struggle with.
All pointers are welcome. I have looked at various discussions of this but they are typically so superficial that they provide no real information. I am willing to investigate alternatives.
For the last many years, in my company, we have managed fairly well with LibreOffice drawings. Typically network diagrams, state machines, flow charts maybe, process documentation. Not very demanding or complex I would say, but I thought it was worth mentiong. Before that, there was a tool, Visi-something, that was eventually acquired by Microsoft. I remember a few people swearing by it. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (15.1°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - your free DNS host, made in Switzerland.
On 10/4/2021 7:28 AM, Per Jessen wrote:
For the last many years, in my company, we have managed fairly well with LibreOffice drawings. Typically network diagrams, state machines, flow Thanks for the info. I didn't realize that LibreOffice had that.
acquired by Microsoft. I remember a few people swearing by it. Are you sure that isn't swear at?
Damon Register
Damon Register wrote:
On 10/4/2021 7:28 AM, Per Jessen wrote:
For the last many years, in my company, we have managed fairly well with LibreOffice drawings. Typically network diagrams, state machines, flow
Thanks for the info. I didn't realize that LibreOffice had that.
acquired by Microsoft. I remember a few people swearing by it.
Are you sure that isn't swear at?
Hehe, yeah, both probably :-) -- Per Jessen, Zürich (15.1°C)
I think that one very useful feature is snapping to a grid so things look tidy. And being able to group and ungroup things to form different units. I will look at LibreOffice again. I have not used the drawing part in a very long time. On Mon, Oct 4, 2021 at 1:28 PM Per Jessen <per@computer.org> wrote:
Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
So, if you have used any such tools (especially on Linux), what are your experiences? And I expecting too much? I have looked at programs like dia. It seems rather basic. But that might just be my knowledge of what it can do. I have also used programs that let you specify the diagram in a text file and it lays out the diagram. That has been fine for simple diagrams. But when the diagrams reach any realistic complexity, the layout is often something that one must struggle with.
All pointers are welcome. I have looked at various discussions of this but they are typically so superficial that they provide no real information. I am willing to investigate alternatives.
For the last many years, in my company, we have managed fairly well with LibreOffice drawings. Typically network diagrams, state machines, flow charts maybe, process documentation. Not very demanding or complex I would say, but I thought it was worth mentiong.
Before that, there was a tool, Visi-something, that was eventually acquired by Microsoft. I remember a few people swearing by it.
-- Per Jessen, Zürich (15.1°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - your free DNS host, made in Switzerland.
-- Roger Oberholtzer
On 05/10/2021 11:33, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
I think that one very useful feature is snapping to a grid so things look tidy. dia does that -- there's a toggle button at the bottom of the drawing window.
Ph. A. -- *Philippe Andersson* Unix System Administrator IBA Particle Therapy | Tel: +32-10-475.983 Fax: +32-10-487.707 eMail: pan@iba-group.com <http://www.iba-worldwide.com> Disclaimer | Use of IBA e-communication<https://iba-worldwide.com/disclaimer> The contents of this e-mail message and any attachments are intended solely for the recipient (s) named above. This communication is intended to be and to remain confidential and may be protected by intellectual property rights. Any use of the information contained herein (including but not limited to, total or partial reproduction, communication or distribution of any form) by persons other than the designated recipient(s) is prohibited. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. E-mail transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free. Ion Beam Applications does not accept liability for any such errors. Thank you for your cooperation.
On 2021-10-04 07:28, Per Jessen wrote:
Before that, there was a tool, Visi-something, that was eventually acquired by Microsoft. I remember a few people swearing by it.
Yes, I remember using it. Very nice. Then Microsoft acquired it and ruined it and it was no longer possible to render past 'drawings' the way they were. More incentive to give up on that platform. -- “Reality is so complex, we must move away from dogma, whether it’s conspiracy theories or free-market,” -- James Glattfelder. http://jth.ch/jbg
Dne pondělí 4. října 2021 13:16:03 CEST, Roger Oberholtzer napsal(a):
Hi all. I am soon to embark on a flurry of system documentation. As a part of this, diagrams showing the layout of both hardware, software, data flow and processing will be done. The things to be presented are rather complicated in that there are many components and many connections between the components. I have done diagrams in the past, but have never been wowed by the software. I'm sure a part of that is my experience with the software. But I think that I might also have chosen poorly. Right tool for the task and all that. So, I am looking at the alternatives. My preference is something that runs on multiple platforms (Linux and Windows). To be honest, a Web tool it not out of the question. Except it would be nice to have the diagrams saved locally for use over a long period of time. It is not a one off thing. These diagrams need to be maintained and by perhaps more than one person. At least over time. Interactive diagrams where the viewer can click and get more details or related diagrams would be nice. Having everything in a monster diagram seems like a bad approach. On the other hand, including the diagrams in other documents that might not be dynamic is needed. So, if you have used any such tools (especially on Linux), what are your experiences? And I expecting too much? I have looked at programs like dia. It seems rather basic. But that might just be my knowledge of what it can do. I have also used programs that let you specify the diagram in a text file and it lays out the diagram. That has been fine for simple diagrams. But when the diagrams reach any realistic complexity, the layout is often something that one must struggle with. All pointers are welcome. I have looked at various discussions of this but they are typically so superficial that they provide no real information. I am willing to investigate alternatives.
I sometimes use http://www.insilmaril.de/vym/ https://software.opensuse.org/ package/vym but I don't know if it has all the functions You wish. -- Vojtěch Zeisek https://trapa.cz/ Komunita openSUSE GNU/Linuxu Community of the openSUSE GNU/Linux https://www.opensuse.org/
On Tue, Oct 5, 2021 at 11:07 AM Vojtěch Zeisek <vojtech.zeisek@opensuse.org> wrote:
I sometimes use http://www.insilmaril.de/vym/ https://software.opensuse.org/ package/vym but I don't know if it has all the functions You wish.
I will have to play with it. But I think it is up to something else. Still, it could be fun to see what it is about anyway. -- Roger Oberholtzer
On 05.10.21 11:30, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
On Tue, Oct 5, 2021 at 11:07 AM Vojtěch Zeisek <vojtech.zeisek@opensuse.org> wrote:
I sometimes use http://www.insilmaril.de/vym/ https://software.opensuse.org/ package/vym but I don't know if it has all the functions You wish.
I will have to play with it. But I think it is up to something else. Still, it could be fun to see what it is about anyway.
Has "dia" been mentioned already? I have been using it for a couple of diagrams, but not very big ones. Josef -- SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Maxfeldstr. 5 90409 Nürnberg Germany (HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg) Geschäftsführer: Felix Imendörffer
On Tue, Oct 5, 2021 at 11:33 AM Josef Moellers <jmoellers@suse.de> wrote:
On 05.10.21 11:30, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
On Tue, Oct 5, 2021 at 11:07 AM Vojtěch Zeisek <vojtech.zeisek@opensuse.org> wrote:
I sometimes use http://www.insilmaril.de/vym/ https://software.opensuse.org/ package/vym but I don't know if it has all the functions You wish.
I will have to play with it. But I think it is up to something else. Still, it could be fun to see what it is about anyway.
Has "dia" been mentioned already? I have been using it for a couple of diagrams, but not very big ones.
I have been looking at dia. It looks like it is the type of thing I want. I have not sorted out how well it scales when charts become too big. That is, can one zoom in or out at various places in the graph? Of course, if the diagrams need that, maybe they are poorly designed. Nonetheless, it is always interesting to see what you must do, and what your tool will help you to do. -- Roger Oberholtzer
On 05/10/2021 11:35, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
I have been looking at dia. It looks like it is the type of thing I want. I have not sorted out how well it scales when charts become too big. You can ease your job by using layers (objects can also be moved to a different layer after they've been created).
That is, can one zoom in or out at various places in the graph? Yes: Ctrl-+ / Ctrl-- (or View | Zoom in/out)
HTH Ph. A. -- *Philippe Andersson* Unix System Administrator IBA Particle Therapy | Tel: +32-10-475.983 Fax: +32-10-487.707 eMail: pan@iba-group.com <http://www.iba-worldwide.com> Disclaimer | Use of IBA e-communication<https://iba-worldwide.com/disclaimer> The contents of this e-mail message and any attachments are intended solely for the recipient (s) named above. This communication is intended to be and to remain confidential and may be protected by intellectual property rights. Any use of the information contained herein (including but not limited to, total or partial reproduction, communication or distribution of any form) by persons other than the designated recipient(s) is prohibited. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. E-mail transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free. Ion Beam Applications does not accept liability for any such errors. Thank you for your cooperation.
On 05/10/2021 11:35, Roger Oberholtzer wrote >> I have been looking at dia. It looks like it is the type of thing I>> want. I have not sorted out how well it scales when charts become too>> big. I've used Dia over the years. Mostly doing maps for IP networks. Years back I made some small scripts to make my own network discovery, producing dia-files from nmap xml output.
One problem with Dia is it's still using GTK2 and python 2.7 for scripting. They're moving to GTK3 and after that GTK4 and for scripting python 3. But it looks like it will take some time. One small tip is to start dia with: dia --integrated to get it all in one window. YMMV. -- /bengan
On 2021-10-05 05:35, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
On Tue, Oct 5, 2021 at 11:33 AM Josef Moellers <jmoellers@suse.de> wrote:
On 05.10.21 11:30, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
On Tue, Oct 5, 2021 at 11:07 AM Vojtěch Zeisek <vojtech.zeisek@opensuse.org> wrote:
I sometimes use http://www.insilmaril.de/vym/ https://software.opensuse.org/ package/vym but I don't know if it has all the functions You wish.
I will have to play with it. But I think it is up to something else. Still, it could be fun to see what it is about anyway.
Has "dia" been mentioned already? I have been using it for a couple of diagrams, but not very big ones.
I have been looking at dia. It looks like it is the type of thing I want. I have not sorted out how well it scales when charts become too big. That is, can one zoom in or out at various places in the graph?
Of course, if the diagrams need that, maybe they are poorly designed. Nonetheless, it is always interesting to see what you must do, and what your tool will help you to do.
have you look at using layers to control views and hence apparent complexity? -- “Reality is so complex, we must move away from dogma, whether it’s conspiracy theories or free-market,” -- James Glattfelder. http://jth.ch/jbg
On 04/10/2021 13.16, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
Hi all.
...
All pointers are welcome. I have looked at various discussions of this but they are typically so superficial that they provide no real information. I am willing to investigate alternatives.
In my notes I have: Kivio, diagramas Umbrello diagramas I have no idea about them. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from oS Leap 15.2 x86_64 (Minas Tirith))
On 2021-10-05 14:20, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 04/10/2021 13.16, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
Hi all.
...
All pointers are welcome. I have looked at various discussions of this but they are typically so superficial that they provide no real information. I am willing to investigate alternatives.
In my notes I have:
Kivio, diagramas Umbrello diagramas
I have no idea about them.
I've used them both but neither stuck in my memory or on my computer. I half recall that Umbrello had something to to with UML and Kivio to do with KDE. I wonder what Google says? https://umbrello.kde.org/ Welcome to Umbrello - The UML Modeller https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calligra_Flow Calligra Flow (formerly Kivio) is free diagramming software that is a part of Calligra Suite, an integrated graphic art and office suite by KDE. ..... has a user interface that is similar to Microsoft Visio. It is fully integrated into Calligra and can for example be embedded into Calligra Words. Well, you'd have to be even more of a KDE affeciando than I am to go for that suite of tools over Openoffice. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calligra#History Some versions run on Windows, Android and macOS. -- “Reality is so complex, we must move away from dogma, whether it’s conspiracy theories or free-market,” -- James Glattfelder. http://jth.ch/jbg
On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 7:05 PM Anton Aylward <opensuse@antonaylward.com> wrote:
On 2021-10-05 14:20, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 04/10/2021 13.16, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
Hi all.
...
All pointers are welcome. I have looked at various discussions of this but they are typically so superficial that they provide no real information. I am willing to investigate alternatives.
In my notes I have:
Kivio, diagramas Umbrello diagramas
I have no idea about them.
I've used them both but neither stuck in my memory or on my computer.
I half recall that Umbrello had something to to with UML and Kivio to do with KDE. I wonder what Google says?
https://umbrello.kde.org/ Welcome to Umbrello - The UML Modeller
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calligra_Flow Calligra Flow (formerly Kivio) is free diagramming software that is a part of Calligra Suite, an integrated graphic art and office suite by KDE. ..... has a user interface that is similar to Microsoft Visio. It is fully integrated into Calligra and can for example be embedded into Calligra Words.
Well, you'd have to be even more of a KDE affeciando than I am to go for that suite of tools over Openoffice. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calligra#History Some versions run on Windows, Android and macOS.
A drawing program can be nice. Like inkscape or others mentioned. But I am focused on process and system diagrams. It looks like dia is more suited for that purpose. I think I will see what dia can provide. And I will keep exploring alternatives. -- Roger Oberholtzer
Start at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_vector_graphics_editors
So, if you have used any such tools (especially on Linux), what are your experiences? And I expecting too much? I have looked at programs like dia. It seems rather basic. But that might just be my knowledge of what it can do. I have also used programs that let you specify the diagram in a text file and it lays out the diagram. That has been fine for simple diagrams. But when the diagrams reach any realistic complexity, the layout is often something that one must struggle with.
I likes Dia. it's real power lay in the ability to create 'layers' that cold show different info about a model. Sadly that's electronic and can't work with hard copy. Yes, out-of-the-box it is VERY basic and as such almost useless. But so was VisiDraw. it just autoloaded a few packages. You _can_ set up Dia to do that too. IIR they were called 'sheets' but were libraries. You could also look at xfig, for a variety of more free-form figures. Xfig is a vector graphics modelling tool which makes scaling easier. https://orng.org/#%F0%9F%8F%A0%F0%9F%94%B8%F0%9F%93%90%F0%9F%94%B8%F0%9F%A4%... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xfig
All pointers are welcome. I have looked at various discussions of this but they are typically so superficial that they provide no real information. I am willing to investigate alternatives.
-- “Reality is so complex, we must move away from dogma, whether it’s conspiracy theories or free-market,” -- James Glattfelder. http://jth.ch/jbg
participants (9)
-
Anton Aylward -
Bengt Gördén -
Carlos E. R. -
Damon Register -
Josef Moellers -
Per Jessen -
Philippe Andersson -
Roger Oberholtzer -
Vojtěch Zeisek