From: "Stuart Powell" <stuart@yorkshirepudding.com> Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 11:55:14 -0600 Message-ID: <HAEAICFGOEPNHBCFMHKPAEILCKAA.stuart@yorkshirepudding.com> Subject: RE: [SLE] Linux Certifications Well, Bernd, could you have possibly been any more rude ? I believe Russell was looking for something a little more constructive than "certifications are for the weak". In today's hot job market (at least it is here in the US), having those certifications marks you out from the crowd. Being able to use the logos on your CV (resume) is an instant eye-catcher. With so many CVs coursing through the hands of the HR people, this is the kind of thing they look for before delving into any relevant experience you might have. In the spring of '96, after going on a string of interviews and being told "If only you knew Novell", I decided to take the plunge. I asked the bank manager very nicely to lend me the GBP7000 to do a CNE Fast Track course. This he did. I took that class as an investment in myself. It subsequently lead to a great job at a huge national company, and is directly responsible for my being here in the US now, through a contact I made whilst in the CNE classes. In the spring of '99, myself, my fiancee, and three friends decided it was time to get the MCSE. We studied once a week for almost 18 months, in our own time, and everyone passed the exams first time. But, we studied hard, and there were a couple of times that people passed by only the narrowest of margins. But they still passed. Since we were all supporting Win9x/NT at the time, the knowledge gained from doing these studies was invaluable. It gave us a structured method to learn how Microsoft thinks its products function. We all approached this undertaking with a view to learning, not just passing the tests and being paid more. Another friend taking his MCSE would only study from the smallest book he could find sufficient to pass the test. He still calls from time to time with idiot questions. One of our group of five had zero computer experience other than playing games on his PC. He is now a very worthwhile member of the IT support community. I am now embarking on the SAIR Linux certification. I didn't want to do RedHat since I favour SuSE. I didn't want to do LPI since it also has some very distro specific modules. I chose SAIR because it deals with Linux on a broad basis. And here's the kicker; I first started with Linux in 1993 with an Yggdrassil distro. I know a lot of the complexities of the system. However, with no formal training, I have missed out on a lot of the basics. I am now getting that knowledge. My pursuit of these certifications is to gain knowledge. I believe that Russell is trying to do the same thing. His intention is to teach a class of people to use and care for a computing platform that the majority of people on this list love. We should be encouraging him to do this, not giving him a hard time. If there are predetermined courses out there, with an exam at the end of them, why shouldn't he use them ? Why should he have to write his own course, which would not be appreciated or recognised by the IT industry once his students have completed it ? If you, Bernd, do not have the patience, will power or dedication to do what it takes to earn these certifications, do not denegrate those of us who have sweated many long hours in their pursuit, and those of us who continue this quest for knowledge. Russell, I wish you luck with your class. Bye for now, Stuart. <p>-----Original Message----- From: suse-linux-e-return-41286-stuart=yorkshirepudding.com@lists.suse.com [mailto:suse-linux-e-return-41286-stuart=yorkshirepudding.com@lists.suse .com]On Behalf Of Bernd Felsche Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2000 3:28 AM To: suse-linux-e@suse.com Subject: Re: [SLE] Linux Certifications <p>dukeofchurchill tapped away at the keyboard with:

Has anyone looked into or been certified with any of the available Linux Certifications ( SAIR, Redhat, other)? If so how through were they? How useful were they when applying for a UNIX Sys Admin position? Would you do it again?

Such certificates are only worthwhile if you're trying to penetrate a wall of human-resource people. If I were to employ somebody, I'd be disinclined to hire anybody with such a certificate and little else to show. Perhaps I'm just cynical about the process of certification where the applicant has to know how to pass the certification process.

I am thinking of using a program such as Sair to instruct Home School High School students on Unix System Administration.

Russell Boyd

I have no idea what's in that programme. If it doesn't involve a groups of six or so students where one is assigned the task of administrator (on a rotating basis) and the others act as clueless jerks (one of the "jerks" being the team manager) asking for the impossible whilst doing their best to screw up their small network of random "workstations" and peripherals; then the programme falls short of any practical application. Those aware of the painful reality of the suggested environment have my sympathy. If you can't write your own 5 chapters (at least) of BOFH, then you're too "green". :-) -- /"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus! | X against HTML mail | Copy me into your ~/.signature| / \ and postings | to help me spread! | -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq

From: Bernd Felsche <bernie@innovative.iinet.net.au> Message-Id: <200011280346.LAA22595@flywheel.innovative.iinet.net.au> Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 11:46:59 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: [SLE] Linux Certifications Stuart Powell tapped away at the keyboard with:

Well, Bernd, could you have possibly been any more rude ?

Rude? I wasn't being rude. Nor did I intend to be rude. I merely explained the status quo based on my limited experience. Basically that certification can leave you woefully ill-equipped to takle real world problems because the certification processes focus on the acquisition of sufficient knowledge to gain certification. In about 20 years of Unix administration, programming, etc I've seldom encountered a "textbook problem". It is only by an understanding of the underlying concepts and paying very close attention to what's being said by the users that the vast majority of problems get solved quickly and permanently.

In the spring of '96, after going on a string of interviews and being told "If only you knew Novell", I decided to take the plunge. I asked the bank manager very nicely to lend me the GBP7000 to do a CNE Fast Track course. This he did. I took that class as an investment in myself. It subsequently lead to a great job at a huge national company, and is directly responsible for my being here in the US now, through a contact I made whilst in the CNE classes.

From 1977 to 1982 I studied at University and the only worthwhile thing I learnt was that I knew almost nothing. Where did the Bachelor's degree get me? Nowhere for at least a year.

My pursuit of these certifications is to gain knowledge. I believe that Russell is trying to do the same thing. His intention is to teach a class of people to use and care for a computing platform that the majority of people on this list love. We should be encouraging him to do this, not giving him a hard time. If there are predetermined courses out there, with an exam at the end of them, why shouldn't he use them ? Why should he have to write his own course, which would not be appreciated or recognised by the IT industry once his students have completed it?

If you, Bernd, do not have the patience, will power or dedication to do what it takes to earn these certifications, do not denegrate those of us who have sweated many long hours in their pursuit, and those of us who continue this quest for knowledge.

I do have the patience, the diligence and the drive to learn these things for myself. I have had no formal training in "computing" or any certification of any sort therein. I've taught myself about computers, programming, system administration, relational databases, networking, firewalls, etc as part of doing my job. Don't assume that I don't have a certification out of laziness, etc.. I am a "lazy" person only because I don't like to do things which aren't necessary from my perspective. I would rather be doing other, directly-productive things with my time. I do not denegrate those who've undertaken certification processes in an honourable manner. It's the certifications in themselves which are frequently questionable because they are abused so easily. As such, any candidate application resting solely or largely on such certification(s) is to me as useful as one without. I know a (not small) number people with some sort of certification, employed to perform a job which ought to be within their scope of ability given the nominal certification. But they can be useless or even counter-productive in such roles. As to using the methods and materials of existing certification programmes, I'd be wary of my right to use them in an environment where I was paid for the provision of similar services. <p>> -----Original Message-----

From: suse-linux-e-return-41286-stuart=yorkshirepudding.com@lists.suse.com [mailto:suse-linux-e-return-41286-stuart=yorkshirepudding.com@lists.suse .com]On Behalf Of Bernd Felsche

dukeofchurchill tapped away at the keyboard with:

...

Has anyone looked into or been certified with any of the available Linux Certifications ( SAIR, Redhat, other)? If so how through were they? How useful were they when applying for a UNIX Sys Admin position? Would you do it again?

Such certificates are only worthwhile if you're trying to penetrate a wall of human-resource people. If I were to employ somebody, I'd be disinclined to hire anybody with such a certificate and little else to show.

Perhaps I'm just cynical about the process of certification where the applicant has to know how to pass the certification process.

...

I am thinking of using a program such as Sair to instruct Home School High School students on Unix System Administration.

Russell Boyd

I have no idea what's in that programme.

If it doesn't involve a groups of six or so students where one is assigned the task of administrator (on a rotating basis) and the others act as clueless jerks (one of the "jerks" being the team manager) asking for the impossible whilst doing their best to screw up their small network of random "workstations" and peripherals; then the programme falls short of any practical application.

Those aware of the painful reality of the suggested environment have my sympathy. If you can't write your own 5 chapters (at least) of BOFH, then you're too "green". :-)

-- /"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus! | X against HTML mail | Copy me into your ~/.signature| / \ and postings | to help me spread! |

From: "Stuart Powell" <stuart@yorkshirepudding.com> Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 21:24:41 -0600 Message-ID: <HAEAICFGOEPNHBCFMHKPMEMACKAA.stuart@yorkshirepudding.com> Subject: RE: [SLE] Linux Certifications Hello, Robert. I'm afraid to say that this industry runs mostly on nepotism. Firstly, you need to put your resume in order. Emphasize the points relevant to computing experience since this is where your focus is. Then start canvassing local consulting firms. Build a resume on monster.com or Geekfinder. Best of all, get a friend who is already in the industry to put in a good word for you with their company, or their colleagues' companies. Consultants are happy to do this since they get referral fees if you are hired. My firm pays a meagre $750, whereas companies like Ajilon are paying upwards of $3,000. Not bad for getting your friend a job, eh ? Don't worry if you don't know any firms in your area; just stick a resume on Monster and watch them come crawling out of the woodwork. Also, it is often the case that to begin with, if you haven't done so already, that you need to spend a little time on the lower rungs of the ladder. That means helpdesk phone support or onsite support, probably with workstations before anyone will let you loose on servers. You may get lucky and not have to go through that, but for a few months, it is quite a good way to make contacts. Also bear in mind that contractors rarely get promoted. If you follow that path, be prepared to move companies if necessary in order to make your way upwards. Be flexible. Hope I didn't sound too "doom and gloom". Best of luck, Stuart. <p>Robert sez... Question: How would one secure a job as a sys admin? I have no formal training. But have been running linux for 6 years now. Have set three networks up, 2 business are running on them. Who would hire me? Would a certificate help? Or do I go to school (is that considered certification?). -- rsweet@socal.rr.com | "Contrary to popular belief, -o) | penguins are not the salvation Linux, the Choice /\ | of modern technology. Neither of a GNU generation _\_v | do they throw parties for the | urban proletariat." -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq

From: "Stuart Powell" <stuart@yorkshirepudding.com> Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 07:37:57 -0600 Message-ID: <HAEAICFGOEPNHBCFMHKPOEMJCKAA.stuart@yorkshirepudding.com> Subject: RE: [SLE] Linux Certifications I couldn't agree more with this. The most important part of the job is being able to fix the user. That is a personality trait. Just about anyone can learn the technical skills, given enough time and training, but there's no easy way to teach someone to be a people person. Bye for now, Stuart. <p><p><p>Bernd sez... The most important experience you can gain as a sys admin is how to communicate with people; the end-users with difficulties and requirements. Lunch breaks are a good opportunity for informal chats to build relationships. Making the users comfortable in dealing with you is a skill that needs to be developed.

From: Jerry Kreps <jerrykreps@jlkreps.net> Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 17:13:16 -0600 Message-Id: <00112917131600.30978@JLKreps> Subject: Re: [SLE] Linux Certifications On Wednesday 29 November 2000 14:08, Don Hansford wrote:

Just had to add a bit :-) As a teacher (TAFE College), I can understand where Berndt was coming from. For example, out of 12 students who are currently likely to pass the networks administration course we ran this year, I would consider employing maybe 2 as SysAdmins. 5 - 6 may be useful in a Help-Desk type situation, and the rest I wouldn't employ for love or money! But they have the piece of paper, because they could answer the required questions. Because the cost of training is so high, the training has to produce "results", so they get a raft of predictable scenarios to work with on a set schedule. Meet the (limited) criteria, and you pass. And even worse, due to the proliferation of the Politically Correct Anal-retentives, the only choice we have in marking them is "competent" or "not yet competent". What a crock! The brightest student in the class gets exactly the same mark as some bludger that has just squeezed through! Oh, for the good old days!!!!

I agree. I taught for 18 years, 8 at a private college. The PC folks are in total denial. Several things are going to happen with the 12 students you mentioned. Most will find jobs because your college will, essentially lie about their qualifications. The two, and I bet they are self-starters, will do alright. Four or five will end up on that help desk, and stay there till they quit and change fields. Four or five will be let go very quickly when it is determined that their certification doesn't express their ability or training. The employers of 8 to 10 will no longer consider TAFE college as anything more than a glorified highs school. Those 8 or 10 will blame TAFE for their failures, and they will be 50% right. At least eighty percent of the time, then, TAFE comes across as a waste of money. Bad news travels fast. The two good students have no iincentive to give TAFE credit for their own efforts. They succeded IN SPITE of TAFE. Each of the remainder will tell 10 others, blaming TAFE for unemployablility. I've seen several locak colleges go down in this area because of that problems. The might University of Nebraska has a Math dept that stinks because of PC attitudes, and employing foreign students who can't speak english or teach, as undergraduate teachers while they attend grad school. Sickens me. JLK <p> -- Scientific theories, according to Sir Karl Popper, can be "falsified," or proven wrong, by experiment. Unscientific theories -Marxist dialectical history and Freudian psychology were Popper's favorites- are formed in such a way that they cannot be falsified by data.