[opensuse] openSUSE (11.0) getting worse with the influence of KDE4 - Part #1: zypper - openSUSE Users

[opensuse] openSUSE (11.0) getting worse with the influence of KDE4 - Part #1: zypper

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[opensuse] openSUSE 11.0 and ACER...

Basil Chupin

16 Sep 2008 16 Sep '08

12:55

I've been away interstate for several days; returned home, on starting the system (11.0, 32-bit, KDE4.1) that there were some ~90 upgrades to be installed. OK, let's get them installed, I thought. I try to do this - and what do I find? I find the following error messages which haven't been gone away for some 14 hours. If upgrades are being put up for zypper to install couldn't someone at least check to make sure that ALL the necessary files are available for zypper to install? The error messages: #### YaST2 conflicts list - generated 2008-09-16 22:39:00 #### nothing provides libqt4 >= 4.4.1 needed by akonadi-runtime-1.0.0-26.1.i586 [ ] do not install akonadi-runtime-1.0.0-26.1.i586 nothing provides libqt4-x11 >= 4.4.1 needed by kdebase4-runtime-4.1.1-45.5.i586 [ ] do not install kdebase4-runtime-4.1.1-45.5.i586 nothing provides libqt4-x11 >= 4.4.1 needed by kdelibs4-4.1.1-51.2.i586 [ ] do not install kdelibs4-4.1.1-51.2.i586 nothing provides libqt4 >= 4.4.1 needed by phonon-4.2.0-11.6.i586 [ ] do not install phonon-4.2.0-11.6.i586 #### YaST2 conflicts list END ### Not very impressed. Ciao. -- It's not possible to operate honestly using a basis of dishonesty. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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Benji Weber

16 Sep 16 Sep

13:02

2008/9/16 Basil Chupin :

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If upgrades are being put up for zypper to install couldn't someone at least check to make sure that ALL the necessary files are available for zypper to install?

Are you using the KDE:Factory repository? See http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-kde/2008-09/msg00052.html -- Benjamin Weber -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin

13:34

Benji Weber wrote:

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2008/9/16 Basil Chupin :

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If upgrades are being put up for zypper to install couldn't someone at least check to make sure that ALL the necessary files are available for zypper to install?

Are you using the KDE:Factory repository?

Yes - and been using it for a long time.

...

See http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-kde/2008-09/msg00052.html

Now where did this come from? Shouldn't either zypper be altered via an upgrade to take this new repo. into account or the missing, required, libqt4 be put into the KDE4 repo. so that the dependencies are satisfied? I am getting the feeling that with this push for KDE4 stuff someone is losing the plot re openSUSE. Thanks for quoting the above reference and I will now add the QT repo to the all-singing, all-dancing zypper so that all of the 92 upgrades can now be installed. Thanks again. Ciao. -- It's not possible to operate honestly using a basis of dishonesty. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Cristian Rodríguez

14:25

Basil Chupin escribió:

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Now where did this come from?

You are using an unoficial repository, you should expect problems like this one.

...

Shouldn't either zypper be altered via an upgrade to take this new repo. into account or the missing

No. required, libqt4 be put into the KDE4 repo.

...

so that the dependencies are satisfied?

No.

...

I am getting the feeling that with this push for KDE4 stuff someone is losing the plot re openSUSE.

No. -- "A computer is like an Old Testament god, with a lot of rules and no mercy. " Cristian Rodríguez R. Platform/OpenSUSE - Core Services SUSE LINUX Products GmbH Research & Development http://www.opensuse.org/

Carlos E. R.

14:51

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Content-ID: The Tuesday 2008-09-16 at 10:25 -0400, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

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Shouldn't either zypper be altered via an upgrade to take this new repo. into account or the missing

No.

...

No.

...

No.

Ok, then... what should he do to repair it? I have my guesses, of course, but perhaps you could expand your info ;-) - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkjPx/cACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WvfwCffYvXc2mrPjSZWeEh0ux7tshr +dgAoJNLPUwQtbpAZkNreGK/zS3rQkrU =+efl -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Jeff Hoare

17 Sep 17 Sep

08:46

Hi Same problem here. He needs to include the KDE:qt build service as well as the KDE build service this provides the required qt library. http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/KDE:/Qt/openSUSE_11.0/ Regards Jeff On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 02:51:31 Carlos E. R. wrote:

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Content-ID:

The Tuesday 2008-09-16 at 10:25 -0400, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

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Shouldn't either zypper be altered via an upgrade to take this new repo. into account or the missing

No.

...

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No.

...

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No.

Ok, then... what should he do to repair it?

I have my guesses, of course, but perhaps you could expand your info ;-)

-- Cheers, Carlos E. R.

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Günter Dannoritzer

09:13

Carlos E. R. wrote:

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Content-ID:

The Tuesday 2008-09-16 at 10:25 -0400, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

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Shouldn't either zypper be altered via an upgrade to take this new repo. into account or the missing ... ... No.

Ok, then... what should he do to repair it?

On my 11.0 system I did: sudo zypper ar http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/KDE:/Qt/openSUSE_11.0/ KDE:Qt That added the repository to my list of repositories. Then I did sudo zypper lu -t package to see what package get update. This step is actually not necessary for the overall process. And finally to do the update: sudo zypper up -t package That resolved my problem with a missing package after the announcement with the KDE:Qt repository requirement. Cheers, Guenter -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin

21 Sep 21 Sep

06:43

Günter Dannoritzer wrote:

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Carlos E. R. wrote:

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Content-ID:

The Tuesday 2008-09-16 at 10:25 -0400, Cristian RodrÃguez wrote:

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Shouldn't either zypper be altered via an upgrade to take this new repo. into account or the missing

...

...
...

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No.

Ok, then... what should he do to repair it?

On my 11.0 system I did:

sudo zypper ar http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/KDE:/Qt/openSUSE_11.0/ KDE:Qt

That added the repository to my list of repositories. Then I did

sudo zypper lu -t package

to see what package get update. This step is actually not necessary for the overall process.

And finally to do the update:

sudo zypper up -t package

That resolved my problem with a missing package after the announcement with the KDE:Qt repository requirement.

<Sigh> Thank you, Guenter, for your response. But you are giving your response from a person who KNOWS how to handle this problem! How about the newcomer to openSUSE who instals 11.0 and then gets the message which we are 'talking' about here? How is he/she going to handle this? Are they going to be able to know that to 'fix' the problem that they would have to: " sudo zypper ar http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/KDE:/Qt/openSUSE_11.0/ KDE:Qt That added the repository to my list of repositories. Then I did sudo zypper lu -t package to see what package get update. This step is actually not necessary for the overall process. And finally to do the update: sudo zypper up -t package That resolved my problem with a missing package after the announcement with the KDE:Qt repository requirement." If you had just installed openSUSE in the past week or so, would you be able to do the above if zypper came up with the error message talked about here? (Then we also have the postings of someone in the Factory mailist who states and keeps ending his/her posting with: "Serving fools should not be a goal of openSUSE. The quality is in other areas." and "..don't forget: serving fools just creates a new fool - you". Such *in-depth* understanding about how things should work! What an *in-depth* understanding on, "How to make friends and influence people"! (From the e-mail address, he/she appears to be connected with openSUSE/Novell - but, I may be wrong [hope so!].) Ciao PS. If you had noticed a change of type font above in my response then it is the result of what I mentioned in my other posting concerning the affect of recent upgrades on Thunderbird - which disappear if Firefox (the openSUSE version) is shutdown. Ciao. -- It's not possible to operate honestly using a basis of dishonesty. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin

05:57

Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

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Basil Chupin escribiÃ³:

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Now where did this come from?

You are using an unoficial repository, you should expect problems like this one.

Let's not get into this argument again :'( .\

...

...
Shouldn't either zypper be altered via an upgrade to take this new repo. into account or the missing

No.

Why not?

...

required, libqt4 be put into the KDE4 repo.

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so that the dependencies are satisfied?

No.

Why not? I am getting the feeling that with this push for KDE4 stuff someone is

...

...
losing the plot re openSUSE.

No.

Having read the messages posted in 'Factory' over the past several days, I think the answer is, "YES". Ciao. -- It's not possible to operate honestly using a basis of dishonesty. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

16 Sep 16 Sep

14:57

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Tuesday 2008-09-16 at 23:34 +1000, Basil Chupin wrote:

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I've been away interstate for several days; returned home, on starting the system (11.0, 32-bit, KDE4.1) that there were some ~90 upgrades to be installed. OK, let's get them installed, I thought. I try to do this - and what do I find? I find the following error messages which haven't been gone away for some 14 hours.

...

...
Are you using the KDE:Factory repository?

Yes - and been using it for a long time.

Then, I'm sorry to say, you are not using 11.0 and, IMHO, the fault is entirely yours, because you have corrupted a stable distro version with repos from another distro version; worse, from the very unstable factory. Use either 11.0 or factory, not a mix. If you add repos to 11.0, add repos prepared for 11.0, not for factory. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkjPyVcACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UzuQCfWFEo6Cn1WG9zTclrDtPgiKYW EN0An0+YpcQ/jSTUeHzRf+zerRmEWHU4 =3+aj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin

21 Sep 21 Sep

07:56

Carlos E. R. wrote:

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The Tuesday 2008-09-16 at 23:34 +1000, Basil Chupin wrote:

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...
...
I've been away interstate for several days; returned home, on starting the system (11.0, 32-bit, KDE4.1) that there were some ~90 upgrades to be installed. OK, let's get them installed, I thought. I try to do this - and what do I find? I find the following error messages which haven't been gone away for some 14 hours.

...

...
...
Are you using the KDE:Factory repository?

...
Yes - and been using it for a long time.

Then, I'm sorry to say, you are not using 11.0 and, IMHO, the fault is entirely yours, because you have corrupted a stable distro version with repos from another distro version; worse, from the very unstable factory.

Use either 11.0 or factory, not a mix. If you add repos to 11.0, add repos prepared for 11.0, not for factory.

Then it is time for openSUSE to stop this damn nonsense about what is "official" and what is "not official" when it comes with they make available to users as part of the "official" release of openSUSE Vxx. I, personally, am getting just a bit p***** off with this discrimination of what is "official" and what is "not official". I installed openSUSE 11.0 from the "official" release of the "official" DVD. I installed in the first instance the KDE 3.x during the installation. I then installed KDE4x immediately after installing the above. I then used the available repositories shown in YaST to keep upgrading KDE4. Unlike in earlier versions of SuSE/openSUSE, I am NOT using "unofficial" versions of Firefox, Thunderbird or OpenOffice. On *this* installation of 11.0 I do not even have the Sun version of VirtualBox installed (or even the Novell version). What I have installed is the stock-standard version of openSUSE 11.0 and with it being upgraded with whatever is made available though YaST and zypper. This I did to ensure to see what happened when someone installed openSUSE as a new user. Having said this, I have to admit that I do not remember if I did add - apart from the packman repository from the wiki to be able to handle multi-media (like DVDs etc) - some repository mentioned in this or another openSUSE maillist, but from my perspective in this installation of openSUSE I wanted to NOT deviate from anything not provided for in the v11.0 installation and then upgraded by zypper (I do NOT have smart installed as I did in the past). Perhaps my memory fails me - in which case I am sorry - but from my perspective everything which I am using is from openSUSE (except for the packman stuff). Ciao. -- It's not possible to operate honestly using a basis of dishonesty. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Clayton

09:21

...

Having said this, I have to admit that I do not remember if I did add - apart from the packman repository from the wiki to be able to handle multi-media (like DVDs etc) - some repository mentioned in this or another openSUSE maillist, but from my perspective in this installation of openSUSE I wanted to NOT deviate from anything not provided for in the v11.0 installation and then upgraded by zypper (I do NOT have smart installed as I did in the past). Perhaps my memory fails me - in which case I am sorry - but from my perspective everything which I am using is from openSUSE (except for the packman stuff).

If you use the YAST GUI, and go into the Repomanger, you can simply click to add the Packman repos.... no pulling repo lists from dodgy sources.. this is part of the default install.... so adding Packman is not what I would call corrupting the "purity" of openSUSE 11.0... it's something every user who actually wants a usable desktop will do. I would say that is NOT deviating at all from anything provided by the 11.0 installation. This crap about what is official and not official is... well... you're not the only one getting annoyed by it Basil :-) C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

09:59

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Sunday 2008-09-21 at 11:21 +0200, Clayton wrote:

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This crap about what is official and not official is... well... you're not the only one getting annoyed by it Basil :-)

It basically means two things: it is less tested, and you do not get updated through "YOU" (unless they also create it). It also means that it is maintained by some "people", but not by Novell. Similar thing as the hpijs drivers for my HP printer: they are not supported by HP, although they are probably made by people from HP, on their free time. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkjWGvYACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WYpgCgiTNuVglmhq5VfXoXRC1nZbbx qcoAnjP6VQzkhbH0JXVctKM9E0fN8RCW =8PFB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Mike McMullin

22 Sep 22 Sep

03:28

New subject: [opensuse] openSUSE (11.0) getting worse with the influence of KDE4 - Part #1: zypper

On Sun, 2008-09-21 at 11:59 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

The Sunday 2008-09-21 at 11:21 +0200, Clayton wrote:

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This crap about what is official and not official is... well... you're not the only one getting annoyed by it Basil :-)

It basically means two things: it is less tested, and you do not get updated through "YOU" (unless they also create it).

It also means that it is maintained by some "people", but not by Novell.

Similar thing as the hpijs drivers for my HP printer: they are not supported by HP, although they are probably made by people from HP, on their free time.

From when I was in that list, yes, they are unofficial HP, but HP folk work on them, not to mention a certain Print Savvy SuSE Employee who handles print related questions on this list. ;) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

11:24

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Sunday 2008-09-21 at 23:28 -0400, Mike McMullin wrote: ...

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Similar thing as the hpijs drivers for my HP printer: they are not supported by HP, although they are probably made by people from HP, on their free time.

From when I was in that list, yes, they are unofficial HP, but HP folk work on them, not to mention a certain Print Savvy SuSE Employee who handles print related questions on this list. ;)

Right :-) - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkjXgHoACgkQtTMYHG2NR9U3HwCeJexJBqmRh7R0/Mpx0tlWm7J9 HQ8An1W04jOn/89nhJtg5G1PHPmYjOCR =4i28 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin

25 Sep 25 Sep

07:44

Carlos E. R. wrote:

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The Sunday 2008-09-21 at 11:21 +0200, Clayton wrote:

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This crap about what is official and not official is... well... you're not the only one getting annoyed by it Basil :-)

It basically means two things: it is less tested, and you do not get updated through "YOU" (unless they also create it).

Now, that makes it all crystal clear: "and you do get updated through "YOU" (unless they also create it)." So, if I *only* use zypper and the repo. manager, then it is "official", right?

...

It also means that it is maintained by some "people", but not by Novell.

But, but, but....... the files come from repositories "sanctioned"/"authorised" by Novell - see the definition of what "official" means in an English dictionary - which means that they are "official".

...

Similar thing as the hpijs drivers for my HP printer: they are not supported by HP, although they are probably made by people from HP, on their free time.

Not interested in the slightest of what HP do with the drivers for their printers; all I care about is how openSUSE handles what they provide to its users. Ciao. -- It's not possible to operate honestly using a basis of dishonesty. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

10:21

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Thursday 2008-09-25 at 17:44 +1000, Basil Chupin wrote:

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The Sunday 2008-09-21 at 11:21 +0200, Clayton wrote:

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This crap about what is official and not official is... well... you're not the only one getting annoyed by it Basil :-)

It basically means two things: it is less tested, and you do not get updated through "YOU" (unless they also create it).

Now, that makes it all crystal clear: "and you do get updated through "YOU" (unless they also create it)."

So, if I *only* use zypper and the repo. manager, then it is "official", right?

Er.... no. I'll reword it. The only official repos are the "oss" repo, the "non-oss" repo, and the "update" repo. Only those three, which are the one that get set automatically during installation. All the rest are "non-official". Of those "non-official" some of them hold newer versions of the packages, prepared by the same people that prepare the official ones, so they should be "good". For example, the three OpenOffice repos. Kind of fuzzy, yes. Others are maintained by people that do not belong/work for Novell at all. Notice that there is only one update repo, which is the one that puts the security updates used by YOU; but only the packages from the oss and non-oss repos get updates this way. Any other repo could create their own update repo, but afaik, they don't. In http://en.opensuse.org/Additional_YaST_Package_Repositories you have a list of repos. Maybe not all of them! And notice the "warning" there. For KDE, there is another list: http://en.opensuse.org/KDE/Repositories. Notice some are maintained by the "KDE team", and some aren't. The "KDE Backports" repos are the safest, but obviously, more limited. Of these, I believe you used the ones marked "KDE 4.1 Factory Development". Notice the warning: Latest KDE 4.1 snapshots as they're developed for openSUSE Factory. These might contain bugs, but are considered mostly useable. Those repositories are incompatible with the STABLE: repos, so you can only use one at a time. and: Latest KDE 4.1 snapshots uses libqt4 as a strong requirement. Don't forget to add this repo to avoid crashes. IMO, these repos are quite dangerous. Only use if you know what you are doing. Certainly not on a production machine.

...

...
It also means that it is maintained by some "people", but not by Novell.

But, but, but....... the files come from repositories "sanctioned"/"authorised" by Novell - see the definition of what "official" means in an English dictionary - which means that they are "official".

How do you know they are "sanctioned"? They sit on hardware provided by Novell, that's about all. Even if made by Novell employees, read the warnings. They are not fully tested. «You» are the tester.

...

...
Similar thing as the hpijs drivers for my HP printer: they are not supported by HP, although they are probably made by people from HP, on their free time.

Not interested in the slightest of what HP do with the drivers for their printers; all I care about is how openSUSE handles what they provide to its users.

Haven't you seen the "as is" notice on most software? - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkjbZg4ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XnGACfSGWSLLp/uq49izorJ8WIXMg9 tg8AnjctWm1rrWDxqgYUpsnFpMCdOtkq =Qf9b -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Basil Chupin

07:15

Clayton wrote:

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...
Having said this, I have to admit that I do not remember if I did add - apart from the packman repository from the wiki to be able to handle multi-media (like DVDs etc) - some repository mentioned in this or another openSUSE maillist, but from my perspective in this installation of openSUSE I wanted to NOT deviate from anything not provided for in the v11.0 installation and then upgraded by zypper (I do NOT have smart installed as I did in the past). Perhaps my memory fails me - in which case I am sorry - but from my perspective everything which I am using is from openSUSE (except for the packman stuff).

If you use the YAST GUI, and go into the Repomanger, you can simply click to add the Packman repos.... no pulling repo lists from dodgy sources.. this is part of the default install.... so adding Packman is not what I would call corrupting the "purity" of openSUSE 11.0... it's something every user who actually wants a usable desktop will do. I would say that is NOT deviating at all from anything provided by the 11.0 installation.

This crap about what is official and not official is... well... you're not the only one getting annoyed by it Basil :-)

:-) Selecting the packman repo. in the YaST repository manager is what I did. Whatever is shown in the repository manager is what I am using --- *except* that I had to add recently the *qt4* repository - as per some posting from a Novell employee - ie, an "official" posting - to be able to have zypper complete its work. With openSUSE 11.0, I've played "straight down the line" because I wanted to see what openSUSE was like without me "fiddling" with "non-official" (!!) versions of anything available in 11.0. I am glad to hear that I am not the only getting "annoyed" by the distinction of "official" vs "non-official". If one looks at the definition, in the English language, of what "official" means then I can only conclude that the language differences used by people in this, and associated forums, is a cause of some unnecessary discords. Ciao. -- It's not possible to operate honestly using a basis of dishonesty. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

09:59

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Thursday 2008-09-25 at 17:15 +1000, Basil Chupin wrote:

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posting from a Novell employee - ie, an "official" posting -

No, that's not "official" either. None of the Novell/suse employees write here in any official capacity. Some do so in their free time and even from home. They have, of course, knowledge and information from inside, but they don't represent the official opinion/say of the company. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkjbYPMACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XoFQCfUZq9WH4RyzdyXiE9mLlmwum2 r88AoIqpGDHy14XTku2eOGb6LyZ/Nd53 =RS1s -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M.

23:53

On Thursday 25 September 2008 04:59:12 am Carlos E. R. wrote:

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The Thursday 2008-09-25 at 17:15 +1000, Basil Chupin wrote:

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posting from a Novell employee - ie, an "official" posting -

No, that's not "official" either. None of the Novell/suse employees write here in any official capacity. Some do so in their free time and even from home.

They have, of course, knowledge and information from inside, but they don't represent the official opinion/say of the company.

The oss, non-oss and update belong to official release. There is nothing open to free interpentation of word official. That is defined that way for a long time. All other repos are not official from Novell perspective, even when only Novell employees can access some parts of the Build Service. I hope that they will not get sing that states explicitely when they act as a private person. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin

26 Sep 26 Sep

09:39

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

The Thursday 2008-09-25 at 17:15 +1000, Basil Chupin wrote:

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posting from a Novell employee - ie, an "official" posting -

No, that's not "official" either. None of the Novell/suse employees write here in any official capacity. Some do so in their free time and even from home.

They have, of course, knowledge and information from inside, but they don't represent the official opinion/say of the company.

You know this for a fact, do you? As far as I am concerned, if I see in the sender's address a reference to Novell or openSUSE then the response comes officially from an employee of Novell/openSUSE. If the response is NOT from someone connected with Novell/openSUSE then there *must* be a disclaimer to indicate same. If the response *is* from someone in Novell/openSUSE but reflects only their *personal* view/opinion then the poster must specifically mention this (as I have seen at least one person from Novell/openSUSE stipulate in his/her posting). Ciao. -- It's not possible to operate honestly using a basis of dishonesty. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

11:03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Friday 2008-09-26 at 19:39 +1000, Basil Chupin wrote:

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Carlos E. R. wrote:

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The Thursday 2008-09-25 at 17:15 +1000, Basil Chupin wrote:

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posting from a Novell employee - ie, an "official" posting -

No, that's not "official" either. None of the Novell/suse employees write here in any official capacity. Some do so in their free time and even from home.

They have, of course, knowledge and information from inside, but they don't represent the official opinion/say of the company.

You know this for a fact, do you?

Yes I do. They have stated this many times.

...

As far as I am concerned, if I see in the sender's address a reference to Novell or openSUSE then the response comes officially from an employee of Novell/openSUSE.

If the response is NOT from someone connected with Novell/openSUSE then there *must* be a disclaimer to indicate same.

If the response *is* from someone in Novell/openSUSE but reflects only their *personal* view/opinion then the poster must specifically mention this (as I have seen at least one person from Novell/openSUSE stipulate in his/her posting).

Wrong. Mail disclaimers are bad taste and useless. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkjcwZ0ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9X+kgCgjxbM3bfV1VbsQprGjqTDnQjp tU4AnR1s7diEw1nH9poM04bvgh6waccE =QVXa -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

James Knott

11:21

Basil Chupin wrote:

...

Carlos E. R. wrote:

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The Thursday 2008-09-25 at 17:15 +1000, Basil Chupin wrote:

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posting from a Novell employee - ie, an "official" posting -

No, that's not "official" either. None of the Novell/suse employees write here in any official capacity. Some do so in their free time and even from home.

They have, of course, knowledge and information from inside, but they don't represent the official opinion/say of the company.

You know this for a fact, do you?

As far as I am concerned, if I see in the sender's address a reference to Novell or openSUSE then the response comes officially from an employee of Novell/openSUSE.

When I was at IBM, I would often use my IBM address in personal email. This did not ever make me a spokesman for IBM so those messages did not come "officially" from IBM. Many people, in many industries use work email for personal use. -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Anders Johansson

12:12

On Friday 26 September 2008 11:39:35 Basil Chupin wrote:

...

...
They have, of course, knowledge and information from inside, but they don't represent the official opinion/say of the company.

You know this for a fact, do you?

Yes

...

As far as I am concerned, if I see in the sender's address a reference to Novell or openSUSE then the response comes officially from an employee of Novell/openSUSE.

Well, yes it does, but that does not make it an official statement of either Novell or SUSE

...

If the response is NOT from someone connected with Novell/openSUSE then there *must* be a disclaimer to indicate same.

Don't be silly. If you try to enforce this, the only result would be that the only @suse.com or @novell.com addresses you see are announcements. The others would either drop off or subscribe with private addresses Virtually no one on these lists is allowed to make official statements on behalf of the companies

...

If the response *is* from someone in Novell/openSUSE but reflects only their *personal* view/opinion then the poster must specifically mention this (as I have seen at least one person from Novell/openSUSE stipulate in his/her posting).

I agree with Carlos. Disclaimers are evil Anders -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin

27 Sep 27 Sep

05:24

Anders Johansson wrote:

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On Friday 26 September 2008 11:39:35 Basil Chupin wrote:

...
...
They have, of course, knowledge and information from inside, but they don't represent the official opinion/say of the company.

You know this for a fact, do you?

Yes

...
As far as I am concerned, if I see in the sender's address a reference to Novell or openSUSE then the response comes officially from an employee of Novell/openSUSE.

Well, yes it does, but that does not make it an official statement of either Novell or SUSE

You agree with me but then decide to disagree. So which is it: you agree or disagree?

...

...
If the response is NOT from someone connected with Novell/openSUSE then there *must* be a disclaimer to indicate same.

Don't be silly. If you try to enforce this, the only result would be that the only @suse.com or @novell.com addresses you see are announcements. The others would either drop off or subscribe with private addresses

My fault for not clearly specifying what I meant by "addresses". I include also the TAGLINES used in postings - and there are many which clearly show that the person responding is someone holding a position with either Novell or SuSE. If the person responding is doing so as a private person then drop the tagline which indicates that the person holds some position within either organisation.

...

Virtually no one on these lists is allowed to make official statements on behalf of the companies

"Virtually no one...". The question then has to be asked: who are those who ARE allowed to make official statements? I note that more and more Novell/SuSE people started posting in these forums over the past few months so I therefore believe that there should be a clear cut approach implemented which makes it clear to people using these forums what is being stated is "official" and "not official". As far as I am concerned this situation is like the road sign one sees as one drives into the suburb where I live, "Speed limit 50kpm unless otherwise signaged". All postings with either Novell or SuSE addresses and or taglines indicating their 'position' or 'connection' in either organisation are official - unless stated otherwise.

...

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If the response *is* from someone in Novell/openSUSE but reflects only their *personal* view/opinion then the poster must specifically mention this (as I have seen at least one person from Novell/openSUSE stipulate in his/her posting).

I agree with Carlos. Disclaimers are evil

But I am unable to support this position. Ciao. -- It's not possible to operate honestly using a basis of dishonesty. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Anders Johansson

26 Sep 26 Sep

12:15

On Thursday 25 September 2008 09:15:45 Basil Chupin wrote:

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Selecting the packman repo. in the YaST repository manager is what I did. Whatever is shown in the repository manager is what I am using --- *except* that I had to add recently the *qt4* repository - as per some posting from a Novell employee - ie, an "official" posting - to be able to have zypper complete its work.

The only such message I have seen is from Dirk Müller, and it was regarding the updated KDE packages from the build service - i.e. you already had an unsupported channel and you had to subscribe to another to make it keep working The updated KDE packages are nice, and I use them daily. But they are nevertheless in a channel which is intended for testing of bleeding edge packages. They still shouldn't break, but with bleeding edge packages, you have to be prepared for it Anders -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin

27 Sep 27 Sep

05:34

Anders Johansson wrote:

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On Thursday 25 September 2008 09:15:45 Basil Chupin wrote:

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Selecting the packman repo. in the YaST repository manager is what I did. Whatever is shown in the repository manager is what I am using --- *except* that I had to add recently the *qt4* repository - as per some posting from a Novell employee - ie, an "official" posting - to be able to have zypper complete its work.

The only such message I have seen is from Dirk Müller, and it was regarding the updated KDE packages from the build service - i.e. you already had an unsupported channel and you had to subscribe to another to make it keep working

The updated KDE packages are nice, and I use them daily. But they are nevertheless in a channel which is intended for testing of bleeding edge packages. They still shouldn't break, but with bleeding edge packages, you have to be prepared for it

Then don't put them in the list of available repositories in YaST for selection. You may also want to rename such, or similar, repositories as EXPERIMENTAL ONLY. If you put a half-baked version of KDE4 into an OFFICIAL release and also make available the repository/ies which upgrade this half-baked Desktop application then please don't come out by attacking a user for not being "prepared for it" when using the half-baked application and having it being upgraded with tools made available in YaST. Ciao. -- It's not possible to operate honestly using a basis of dishonesty. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M.

10:50

On Saturday 27 September 2008 12:34:47 am Basil Chupin wrote:

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Anders Johansson wrote:

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On Thursday 25 September 2008 09:15:45 Basil Chupin wrote:

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Selecting the packman repo. in the YaST repository manager is what I did. Whatever is shown in the repository manager is what I am using --- *except* that I had to add recently the *qt4* repository - as per some posting from a Novell employee - ie, an "official" posting - to be able to have zypper complete its work.

The only such message I have seen is from Dirk Müller, and it was regarding the updated KDE packages from the build service - i.e. you already had an unsupported channel and you had to subscribe to another to make it keep working

The updated KDE packages are nice, and I use them daily. But they are nevertheless in a channel which is intended for testing of bleeding edge packages. They still shouldn't break, but with bleeding edge packages, you have to be prepared for it

Then don't put them in the list of available repositories in YaST for selection.

Why not? A lot of people use them. It is just a list that allows easy inclusion in package management it doesn't mean that the listed repos are as tested as 3 officially supported repositories, oss, non-oss and update. Instead of persisting in redefinition of what is official and what not, it will make your life easier to accept explanations. They are given by people that have good intentions.

...

You may also want to rename such, or similar, repositories as EXPERIMENTAL ONLY.

State of software in Factory [1] is changing from highly volatile in time when new version development is starting, to release quality before new version release, so glowing 'experimental' is not appropriate to be attached all the time. That is the reason someone wrote article about Factory [1] http://en.opensuse.org/Factory .

...

If you put a half-baked version of KDE4 into an OFFICIAL release and also make available the repository/ies which upgrade this half-baked Desktop application then please don't come out by attacking a user for not being "prepared for it" when using the half-baked application and having it being upgraded with tools made available in YaST.

All that I can read is warning to be ready for some problems, or question why you are not [2]. Attack is a bit more than explicitly expressed disappointment with your persistence in attempt to redefine what is considered official and what not [3].

...

It's not possible to operate honestly using a basis of dishonesty.

Simple, but then, moms are not always honest. Kids have to do some things before they can understand why, and that is where moms are forced to use basically dishonest methods. ************************************************************************* [1] Factory is fancy name for openSUSE development repository, and as any development it has some rules how to use it, different from normal repositories. Advice to use KDE4 Factory can't be taken out of time frame it was given, but that is valid for many other advices in technical lists that doesn't relate to Factory. [2] If you want stable system that offers just security updates and bugfixes for most annoying bugs, that it should be used only 3 well tested (official) repositories, anything else is there for user convenience, and quality level can vary a lot. That is the reason for development of the trust system http://en.opensuse.org/Build_Service/Concepts/Trust but how "easy" is to solve problem you can see from links included in article. [3] Trying to define what is official and what not, you stretch your position too far. You, me and many more, including many of Novell paid developers, can't say a word about what will be done on company time, and that is only difference between officially supported repositories, and non-official. All software is AS IS and that doesn't make a difference. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

12:20

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Saturday 2008-09-27 at 05:50 -0500, Rajko M. wrote:

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On Saturday 27 September 2008 12:34:47 am Basil Chupin wrote:

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Instead of persisting in redefinition of what is official and what not, it will make your life easier to accept explanations. They are given by people that have good intentions.

Exactly. I concur with your entire post. Things are as they are, and trying to go against the widely accepted status is futile, it can only cause problems and distress. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkjeJQsACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WXDACfZvCNEpBevH1eKK08u8nZQ6Zu zYUAni11+5whA5Kl7UKxPePp1ADxIZPP =BubT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

21 Sep 21 Sep

10:01

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Sunday 2008-09-21 at 17:56 +1000, Basil Chupin wrote:

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Carlos E. R. wrote:

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The Tuesday 2008-09-16 at 23:34 +1000, Basil Chupin wrote:

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...
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I've been away interstate for several days; returned home, on starting the system (11.0, 32-bit, KDE4.1) that there were some ~90 upgrades to be installed. OK, let's get them installed, I thought. I try to do this - and what do I find? I find the following error messages which haven't been gone away for some 14 hours.

...

...
...
Are you using the KDE:Factory repository?

...
Yes - and been using it for a long time.

Then, I'm sorry to say, you are not using 11.0 and, IMHO, the fault is entirely yours, because you have corrupted a stable distro version with repos from another distro version; worse, from the very unstable factory.

Use either 11.0 or factory, not a mix. If you add repos to 11.0, add repos prepared for 11.0, not for factory.

Then it is time for openSUSE to stop this damn nonsense about what is "official" and what is "not official" when it comes with they make available to users as part of the "official" release of openSUSE Vxx.

I, personally, am getting just a bit p***** off with this discrimination of what is "official" and what is "not official".

Hey, I said nothing about "official". I said "factory", which is official if you like, but very experimental and expected to fail. Factory is where the new 11.1 is being tested. If you use factory you are expected to have problems, and in fact, you are also expected to help solving them. It is not for novices. Plus, if you mix packages from a factory repo and from 11.0 you get a very dangerous mix which will fail sooner or later. They are simply not designed to go together.

...

I installed openSUSE 11.0 from the "official" release of the "official" DVD.

I installed in the first instance the KDE 3.x during the installation.

I then installed KDE4x immediately after installing the above.

I then used the available repositories shown in YaST to keep upgrading KDE4.

Yes, that's ok, but you can not choose a repo named "KDE:Factory". Using that one has broken your distro. It may have worked in the past because the upcoming 11.1 was not that different from your 11.0 base system. With the pass of time, they diverge more and more, till things break. IMO.

...

What I have installed is the stock-standard version of openSUSE 11.0 and with it being upgraded with whatever is made available though YaST and zypper. This I did to ensure to see what happened when someone installed openSUSE as a new user.

But yast/zypper are just tools to install things. You can choose to install from repos that are not appropriate, and this is your choice. I could agree that knowing what is the intention of each repo is not an easy task, but that's not the fault of Yast. You could, for instance, open a feature request bugzilla requesting that the repos have a mandatory description file, which is loaded by yast when users try to add a repo so they can choose to continue or abort. Or use a browse repo feature to read those descriptions and add repos by clicking on them after reading the descriptions. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkjWG5gACgkQtTMYHG2NR9Xf7ACgidASga6dWSoroVEAUrf22j6M ZCsAn1cW9irApppp+Bh6m6DckbAlJUhu =iLcY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin

26 Sep 26 Sep

10:02

Carlos E. R. wrote:

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The Sunday 2008-09-21 at 17:56 +1000, Basil Chupin wrote:

...
Carlos E. R. wrote:

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The Tuesday 2008-09-16 at 23:34 +1000, Basil Chupin wrote:

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...
...
I've been away interstate for several days; returned home, on starting the system (11.0, 32-bit, KDE4.1) that there were some ~90 upgrades to be installed. OK, let's get them installed, I thought. I try to do this - and what do I find? I find the following error messages which haven't been gone away for some 14 hours.

...

...
...
Are you using the KDE:Factory repository?

...
Yes - and been using it for a long time.

Then, I'm sorry to say, you are not using 11.0 and, IMHO, the fault is entirely yours, because you have corrupted a stable distro version with repos from another distro version; worse, from the very unstable factory.

Use either 11.0 or factory, not a mix. If you add repos to 11.0, add repos prepared for 11.0, not for factory.

...
Then it is time for openSUSE to stop this damn nonsense about what is "official" and what is "not official" when it comes with they make available to users as part of the "official" release of openSUSE Vxx.

...
I, personally, am getting just a bit p***** off with this discrimination of what is "official" and what is "not official".

Hey, I said nothing about "official".

I said "factory", which is official if you like, but very experimental and expected to fail. Factory is where the new 11.1 is being tested. If you use factory you are expected to have problems, and in fact, you are also expected to help solving them. It is not for novices.

Then it is about time that Novell clearly specified that "repositories" are EXPERIMENTAL or - what would you like to call them, (?) OFFICIAL RELEASE- ?

...

Plus, if you mix packages from a factory repo and from 11.0 you get a very dangerous mix which will fail sooner or later. They are simply not designed to go together.

I am not mixing anything with anything which is not given - or mentioned in openSUSE mail-list forums, like Factory - in the repo. list shown when I installed v11.0 (or after upgrades).

...

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I installed openSUSE 11.0 from the "official" release of the "official" DVD.

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I installed in the first instance the KDE 3.x during the installation.

...
I then installed KDE4x immediately after installing the above.

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I then used the available repositories shown in YaST to keep upgrading KDE4.

Yes, that's ok, but you can not choose a repo named "KDE:Factory". Using that one has broken your distro. It may have worked in the past because the upcoming 11.1 was not that different from your 11.0 base system. With the pass of time, they diverge more and more, till things break. IMO.

RATS! If the "KDE:Factory" is supposed to "break" my v11.0 installation with KDE4.x (and its upgrades) then someone at Novell/openSUSE need to have their arse kicked. I install, I use the standard upgrade facility in openSUSE, namely zypper, to maintain my system up-to-date and you want me to believe that *I* am causing my problem? Come on, Carlos!

...

...
What I have installed is the stock-standard version of openSUSE 11.0 and with it being upgraded with whatever is made available though YaST and zypper. This I did to ensure to see what happened when someone installed openSUSE as a new user.

But yast/zypper are just tools to install things. You can choose to install from repos that are not appropriate, and this is your choice. I could agree that knowing what is the intention of each repo is not an easy task, but that's not the fault of Yast.

I will repeat what I said above, "RATS!" I, as a user, do NOT need to know what is appropriate and what is not appropriate to use for my upgrades/updates. I, as a user, *expect* the OS and its writers to provide me with the correct information to be able to upgrade my system.

...

You could, for instance, open a feature request bugzilla requesting that the repos have a mandatory description file, which is loaded by yast when users try to add a repo so they can choose to continue or abort. Or use a browse repo feature to read those descriptions and add repos by clicking on them after reading the descriptions.

Oh, yes, "write a bugzilla" or similar. How about someone at the Novell/openSUSE end use their intellect and foresee problems/needs? You simply cannot tell me that most people at Novell/openSUSE are so stupid that they cannot preempt problems from what they/colleagues are doing/programming? Ciao. -- It's not possible to operate honestly using a basis of dishonesty. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Clayton

10:09

...

If the "KDE:Factory" is supposed to "break" my v11.0 installation with KDE4.x (and its upgrades) then someone at Novell/openSUSE need to have their arse kicked.

And.... at least for KDE4, using KDE4: Factory is the only way to get a remotely usable KDE4. If anyone is still fighting with 4.0.4 and only using the 'official' repo so they don't break their 11.0 install is doing themselves a serious disservice :-( KDE4.0.4 is more broken than anything you get from the Factory repo. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

11:13

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Friday 2008-09-26 at 20:02 +1000, Basil Chupin wrote:

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Carlos E. R. wrote:

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RATS!

... I see you are being obtuse and do not want to understand. I have done what I could to explain, so I quit. Yes, factory is highly experimental. The buildservice and what are the repositories is documented and you were warned about what they are and what might happen. You did not read or notice. You do not want to believe my explanations... so I haven't any thing else to say. Things are as they are. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkjcw/cACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XOzACeK/G6BImtWepD6Y9Ku6H0itdD GWwAnjtMWJhGQAVjQfyg8Q4xtcs4UtXm =7a7M -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Roger Oberholtzer

22 Sep 22 Sep

06:26

New subject: [opensuse] openSUSE (11.0) getting worse with the influence of KDE4 - Part #1: zypper

On Sun, 2008-09-21 at 17:56 +1000, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
The Tuesday 2008-09-16 at 23:34 +1000, Basil Chupin wrote:

...
...
...
I've been away interstate for several days; returned home, on starting the system (11.0, 32-bit, KDE4.1) that there were some ~90 upgrades to be installed. OK, let's get them installed, I thought. I try to do this - and what do I find? I find the following error messages which haven't been gone away for some 14 hours.

...

...
...
Are you using the KDE:Factory repository?

...
Yes - and been using it for a long time.

Then, I'm sorry to say, you are not using 11.0 and, IMHO, the fault is entirely yours, because you have corrupted a stable distro version with repos from another distro version; worse, from the very unstable factory.

Use either 11.0 or factory, not a mix. If you add repos to 11.0, add repos prepared for 11.0, not for factory.

Then it is time for openSUSE to stop this damn nonsense about what is "official" and what is "not official" when it comes with they make available to users as part of the "official" release of openSUSE Vxx.

The KDE4/QT4 is, as far as I see and perhaps despite intentions, part of the official release of 11.0. I just did a new 11.0 install. I did NOT select to install KDE4 as the desktop. I selected KDE3. After installation, I see things like Kmahjong/4 in the menus. Quite a few /4 KDE programs right along with the expected KDE3. So, some dependency in the 11.0 install is pulling these in. In the list of packages to be installed, components from KDE4 were selected even though I did not select to install KDE4. The two releases are not independent of each other. And that is the basis for the current confusion. This means that to do an update of KDE3, KDE4 components will be updated. Once the requirement to update KDE4 components becomes a part of updating a system which did NOT have KDE4 selected as a desktop happens, dependencies to keep KDE4 updateable must be organized in such a way that they are met without resorting to swinging ex poultry.

...

I, personally, am getting just a bit p***** off with this discrimination of what is "official" and what is "not official".

I do not have a problem with the Factory concept. The problem here is that KDE4 is not very complete. Once you need to fiddle with getting KDE4 dependencies sorted in order to use KDE3, it would be a strange person indeed who did not select the Factory KDE4. After all, we keep hearing that 4.1 and now 4.1.1 have so many of those things not in the KDE4 release that comes standard with 11.0. So why bother with the anemic KDE4 that came with 11.0? If the intention was to keep these separate (KDE 4.0 vs 4.1), then the 11.0 release should have specifically stated KDE 4.0 dependencies. I am guessing this is not the case. Making transition to 4.1 much easier. But also creating the current confusion. I am unclear on one point (at least): when the KDE3 components that are starting to use KDE4 components are updated, are they built against the old KDE4 that came with 11.0, or against KDE4 Factory? I would have guessed the later. If that is the case, it is yet another reason why folk are adding KDE4 Factory to their list of repositories: it helps keep the official KDE3 updated and running. -- Roger Oberholtzer OPQ Systems / Ramböll RST Ramböll Sverige AB Kapellgränd 7 P.O. Box 4205 SE-102 65 Stockholm, Sweden Office: Int +46 8-615 60 20 Mobile: Int +46 70-815 1696 And remember: It is RSofT and there is always something under construction. It is like talking about large city with all constructions finished. Not impossible, but very unlikely. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

11:33

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Monday 2008-09-22 at 08:26 +0200, Roger Oberholtzer wrote: ...

...

the 11.0 install is pulling these in. In the list of packages to be installed, components from KDE4 were selected even though I did not select to install KDE4. The two releases are not independent of each other. And that is the basis for the current confusion.

Yes, there are some dependencies between kde4 and 3.

...

...
I, personally, am getting just a bit p***** off with this discrimination of what is "official" and what is "not official".

I do not have a problem with the Factory concept. The problem here is that KDE4 is not very complete. Once you need to fiddle with getting KDE4 dependencies sorted in order to use KDE3, it would be a strange person indeed who did not select the Factory KDE4. After all, we keep

But you have to know that factory is, by definition, not stable. It can be very inestable. It can break easily, and if it does, you can not blame anybody. It is your "fault". It is expected to break, and you are expected to report problems in the proper channels and help. You can be fortunate that factory works always for you, but that is not ensured. So, if you do want to update KDE4, use one of the repos intended for 11.0, like the kde stable or unstable repo. But not the factory repo, unless you know what you are doing. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkjXgnwACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XVsQCcC0CBbHEEG3SJoTglfd7I/RTM gPIAn3Qx7eWNDQ/1LgGVL48w6U9AJiE6 =eIN0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Roger Oberholtzer

12:49

New subject: [opensuse] openSUSE (11.0) getting worse with the influence of KDE4 - Part #1: zypper

On Mon, 2008-09-22 at 13:33 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

So, if you do want to update KDE4, use one of the repos intended for 11.0, like the kde stable or unstable repo. But not the factory repo, unless you know what you are doing.

But this is the thing: I waned to update KDE3! When most say that the KDE4 that comes with 11.0 is not very usable (compared to KDE3), and that Factory is where a more usable KDE4 is, well, there is a great temptation to use Factory. Resist temptation is easy to say. Better yet, don't make KDE3 dependent on KDE4 until KDE4 is ready for prime time. That is one of the endless discussions on this list which I do not want to restart... -- Roger Oberholtzer OPQ Systems / Ramböll RST Ramböll Sverige AB Kapellgränd 7 P.O. Box 4205 SE-102 65 Stockholm, Sweden Office: Int +46 8-615 60 20 Mobile: Int +46 70-815 1696 And remember: It is RSofT and there is always something under construction. It is like talking about large city with all constructions finished. Not impossible, but very unlikely. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

14:34

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Monday 2008-09-22 at 14:49 +0200, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

...

On Mon, 2008-09-22 at 13:33 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
So, if you do want to update KDE4, use one of the repos intended for 11.0, like the kde stable or unstable repo. But not the factory repo, unless you know what you are doing.

But this is the thing: I waned to update KDE3! When most say that the KDE4 that comes with 11.0 is not very usable (compared to KDE3), and that Factory is where a more usable KDE4 is, well, there is a great temptation to use Factory. Resist temptation is easy to say. Better yet, don't make KDE3 dependent on KDE4 until KDE4 is ready for prime time. That is one of the endless discussions on this list which I do not want to restart...

If you want to use only kde3, you do not need to update anything. After all, kde3 is not being worked uppon, so you will probably not get anything new. I haven't updated anything and it just works. If you want to update your kde4, then use only repos with no "factory" on their name. Use the stable one, and if adventurous, the unstable. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkjXrNoACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XDTQCfbbgGDqcECO1PM4we33DHPMxA z9UAn0QVG604oe8IlFoSSdZl/hbrh6ha =WsJN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Roger Oberholtzer

14:51

New subject: [opensuse] openSUSE (11.0) getting worse with the influence of KDE4 - Part #1: zypper

On Mon, 2008-09-22 at 16:34 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

The Monday 2008-09-22 at 14:49 +0200, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

...
On Mon, 2008-09-22 at 13:33 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
So, if you do want to update KDE4, use one of the repos intended for 11.0, like the kde stable or unstable repo. But not the factory repo, unless you know what you are doing.

But this is the thing: I waned to update KDE3! When most say that the KDE4 that comes with 11.0 is not very usable (compared to KDE3), and that Factory is where a more usable KDE4 is, well, there is a great temptation to use Factory. Resist temptation is easy to say. Better yet, don't make KDE3 dependent on KDE4 until KDE4 is ready for prime time. That is one of the endless discussions on this list which I do not want to restart...

If you want to use only kde3, you do not need to update anything. After all, kde3 is not being worked uppon, so you will probably not get anything new. I haven't updated anything and it just works.

If you want to update your kde4, then use only repos with no "factory" on their name. Use the stable one, and if adventurous, the unstable.

I agree fully. In openSUSE 11.0, when you add Community Repositories, the only KDE4 that is offered is: http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/KDE:/KDE4:/Factory:/Desktop/openSU... There is no other KDE4 repository in the list. Perhaps the Community Repository list should not contain Factory items. Or, at least not ONLY the Factory items for something. Maybe there should be a different selection category than "Community Repositories" when you select to add repositories, like "Factory Repositories". When you select this list, you get a popup that warns you what you are up to. Exactly like when you access the disk partition manager in Yast, and it happens every time. -- Roger Oberholtzer OPQ Systems / Ramböll RST Ramböll Sverige AB Kapellgränd 7 P.O. Box 4205 SE-102 65 Stockholm, Sweden Office: Int +46 8-615 60 20 Mobile: Int +46 70-815 1696 And remember: It is RSofT and there is always something under construction. It is like talking about large city with all constructions finished. Not impossible, but very unlikely. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

19:09

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Monday 2008-09-22 at 16:51 +0200, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

...

...
If you want to update your kde4, then use only repos with no "factory" on their name. Use the stable one, and if adventurous, the unstable.

I agree fully.

In openSUSE 11.0, when you add Community Repositories, the only KDE4 that is offered is:

http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/KDE:/KDE4:/Factory:/Desktop/openSU...

There is no other KDE4 repository in the list.

Perhaps the Community Repository list should not contain Factory items. Or, at least not ONLY the Factory items for something.

Exactly.

...

Maybe there should be a different selection category than "Community Repositories" when you select to add repositories, like "Factory Repositories". When you select this list, you get a popup that warns you what you are up to. Exactly like when you access the disk partition manager in Yast, and it happens every time.

Or sublists. At first I was thrilled to see that gadget to ad repos from a list, automatically. Soon I was disappointed to find that the repos I wanted are not there, like the OOo repo. I have no idea how that list is generated. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkjX7VQACgkQtTMYHG2NR9W0gwCfR7zj83yeZi1RDgOUat2Odj1x 5YIAnRTefH3hzP3SSg6Fg8A5PjprtsgB =E8V1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Larry Stotler

14:46

On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 8:49 AM, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

...

But this is the thing: I waned to update KDE3! When most say that the KDE4 that comes with 11.0 is not very usable (compared to KDE3), and that Factory is where a more usable KDE4 is, well, there is a great temptation to use Factory. Resist temptation is easy to say. Better yet, don't make KDE3 dependent on KDE4 until KDE4 is ready for prime time. That is one of the endless discussions on this list which I do not want to restart...

I've opened a bug report about this. I agree. I don't feel that KDE4 apps should be installed onto a KDE3 setup. Doing so wastes resources by having both sets of libraries running. If the devs need to have KDE3 apps running in KDE4, then that's understandable. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Bruce A. Mallett

19 Sep 19 Sep

17:29

Benji Weber wrote:

...

2008/9/16 Basil Chupin :

...
If upgrades are being put up for zypper to install couldn't someone at least check to make sure that ALL the necessary files are available for zypper to install?

Are you using the KDE:Factory repository?

See http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-kde/2008-09/msg00052.html

-- Benjamin Weber

Granted that repositories for stable release are assumed to be stable, nonetheless it seems like this points out an opportunity for a (small?) user-friendly enhancement to Yast. Somewhat like the idea of when you try to run a not-yet-installed program where it makes the suggestion as to how to do it, it would be neat if Yast could push out a message suggesting that one add such-n-such a repository. - Bruce -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Hylton Conacher (ZR1HPC)

18:55

2008/9/19 Bruce A. Mallett :

...

Benji Weber wrote:

...
2008/9/16 Basil Chupin :

...
If upgrades are being put up for zypper to install couldn't someone at least check to make sure that ALL the necessary files are available for zypper to install?

Are you using the KDE:Factory repository?

See http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-kde/2008-09/msg00052.html

-- Benjamin Weber

Granted that repositories for stable release are assumed to be stable, nonetheless it seems like this points out an opportunity for a (small?) user-friendly enhancement to Yast. Somewhat like the idea of when you try to run a not-yet-installed program where it makes the suggestion as to how to do it, it would be neat if Yast could push out a message suggesting that one add such-n-such a repository.

I second the idea and suggest that you add a request onto the wishlist that automatically asks the installer if they would like to add the repository. So many people, myself iat least, are battling to understand the idea of repositories and finding a reliable secure OpenSuSE specific one. Regards hylton -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Fred A. Miller

19:16

Hylton Conacher (ZR1HPC) wrote:

...

2008/9/19 Bruce A. Mallett :

...
Benji Weber wrote:

...
2008/9/16 Basil Chupin :

...
If upgrades are being put up for zypper to install couldn't someone at least check to make sure that ALL the necessary files are available for zypper to install?

Are you using the KDE:Factory repository?

See http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-kde/2008-09/msg00052.html

-- Benjamin Weber

Granted that repositories for stable release are assumed to be stable, nonetheless it seems like this points out an opportunity for a (small?) user-friendly enhancement to Yast. Somewhat like the idea of when you try to run a not-yet-installed program where it makes the suggestion as to how to do it, it would be neat if Yast could push out a message suggesting that one add such-n-such a repository.

I second the idea and suggest that you add a request onto the wishlist that automatically asks the installer if they would like to add the repository. So many people, myself iat least, are battling to understand the idea of repositories and finding a reliable secure OpenSuSE specific one.

Add me to the list! Fred -- "While addressing the [GOP convention], Sarah Palin criticized Barack Obama for not having enough 'specifics.' Obama was reportedly angry about the claim, but didn't say exactly why." -Conan O'Brien -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Bruce A. Mallett

20:59

Fred A. Miller wrote:

...

Hylton Conacher (ZR1HPC) wrote:

...
2008/9/19 Bruce A. Mallett :

...
Benji Weber wrote:

...
2008/9/16 Basil Chupin :

...
If upgrades are being put up for zypper to install couldn't someone at least check to make sure that ALL the necessary files are available for zypper to install?

Are you using the KDE:Factory repository?

See http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-kde/2008-09/msg00052.html

-- Benjamin Weber

Granted that repositories for stable release are assumed to be stable, nonetheless it seems like this points out an opportunity for a (small?) user-friendly enhancement to Yast. Somewhat like the idea of when you try to run a not-yet-installed program where it makes the suggestion as to how to do it, it would be neat if Yast could push out a message suggesting that one add such-n-such a repository.

I second the idea and suggest that you add a request onto the wishlist that automatically asks the installer if they would like to add the repository. So many people, myself iat least, are battling to understand the idea of repositories and finding a reliable secure OpenSuSE specific one.

Add me to the list!

I've added it here: http://en.opensuse.org/Feature_Wishlist/YAST_related -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Fred A. Miller

20 Sep 20 Sep

03:18

Bruce A. Mallett wrote:

...

Fred A. Miller wrote:

[snip]

...

...
...
I second the idea and suggest that you add a request onto the wishlist that automatically asks the installer if they would like to add the repository. So many people, myself iat least, are battling to understand the idea of repositories and finding a reliable secure OpenSuSE specific one.

Add me to the list!

I've added it here: http://en.opensuse.org/Feature_Wishlist/YAST_related

Thanks! Fred -- "While addressing the [GOP convention], Sarah Palin criticized Barack Obama for not having enough 'specifics.' Obama was reportedly angry about the claim, but didn't say exactly why." -Conan O'Brien -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Roger Oberholtzer

09:54

On Sep 19, 2008, at 7:29 PM, Bruce A. Mallett wrote:

...

Granted that repositories for stable release are assumed to be stable, nonetheless it seems like this points out an opportunity for a (small?) user-friendly enhancement to Yast. Somewhat like the idea of when you try to run a not-yet-installed program where it makes the suggestion as to how to do it, it would be neat if Yast could push out a message suggesting that one add such-n-such a repository.

I wonder why, when I checked the community repository list after the info about the QT4 requirement, QT4 was not in the list. Granted, it was no trouble to enter it by hand. I have done this for years already. Perhaps I missed something. When I went to see if it was there, it did give a message that it was checking the net for additions to the list. But a message, as stated above, could be a good idea. Even if it had been in the list, I would never have thought it add it for a KDE3 issue. In a way, this is a slippery slope. We are moving from RPM dependency to RPM + repository dependency. This is not a new issue. But this example makes it apparent that there could be a need for repository dependency specifications in packages. Perhaps an RPM could require a file, stored in some place on the user's system, who's name is the name of the repository it wants. A file called 'Repository http://yadda.yadda'. Then, when Yast is doing it's thing, it could say something like: packageX can't be installed because "Repository http://yadda.yadda' not found. (Or however it words the problem). The dependency must somehow be met, but you get the idea. No change to Yast or any other manager. Just use RPM as it is to make the requirement known. -- Roger Oberholtzer OPQ Systems / Ramböll RST Ramböll Sverige AB Kapellgränd 7 P.O. Box 4205 SE-102 65 Stockholm, Sweden Office: Int +46 8-615 60 20 Mobile: Int +46 70-815 1696 And remember: It is RSofT and there is always something under construction. It is like talking about large city with all constructions finished. Not impossible, but very unlikely. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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participants (17)

Anders Johansson
Basil Chupin
Benji Weber
Bruce A. Mallett
Carlos E. R.
Carlos E. R.
Clayton
Cristian Rodríguez
Fred A. Miller
Günter Dannoritzer
Hylton Conacher (ZR1HPC)
James Knott
Jeff Hoare
Larry Stotler
Mike McMullin
Rajko M.
Roger Oberholtzer