Now I have a bootable kernel I have worked though matters with 11.4
All the personal config came though intact :-) A lot of the system config has been altered and I'm not sure if that is just 11.3/11.4 differences or what.
These are the problems I see now
1. KDM does not work. The greeter fails. The log file reads
X.Org X Server 1.9.3 Release Date: 2010-12-13 X Protocol Version 11, Revision 0 Build Operating System: openSUSE SUSE LINUX Current Operating System: Linux BigBoy 2.6.37.6-0.5-pae #1 SMP 2011-04-25 21:48:33 +0200 i686 Kernel command line: root=/dev/sda3 resume=/dev/sda2 splash=silent quiet PROFILE=default vga=0x317 Build Date: 22 February 2011 10:15:34PM
Current version of pixman: 0.20.0 Before reporting problems, check http://wiki.x.org to make sure that you have the latest version. Markers: (--) probed, (**) from config file, (==) default setting, (++) from command line, (!!) notice, (II) informational, (WW) warning, (EE) error, (NI) not implemented, (??) unknown. (==) Log file: "/var/log/Xorg.0.log", Time: Sat Apr 30 07:12:51 2011 (==) Using config directory: "/etc/X11/xorg.conf.d" (II) [KMS] Kernel modesetting enabled. No protocol specified kdmgreet: cannot connect to X server :0
There is nothing wrong with X. I can start it with 'startx' from the command line under both the root account and my personal account and with a few oddities (see later) it works.
I don't know what to make of that message or how to proceed.
2. Lots of odd errors in config files Many things started from the command line produce stuff like this kbuildsycoca4(4522)/kdecore (services) KServicePrivate::init: The desktop entry file "/usr/share/applications/YaST2/inetd.desktop" has Type= "Application" but also has a X-KDE-Library key. This works for now, but makes user-preference handling difficult, so support for this might be removed at some point. Consider splitting it into two desktop files. kbuildsycoca4(4522)/kdecore (services) KServicePrivate::init: The desktop entry file "/usr/share/applications/YaST2/sw_source.desktop" has Type= "Application" but also has a X-KDE-Library key. This works for now, but makes user-preference handling difficult, so support for this might be removed at some point. Consider splitting it into two desktop files. kbuildsycoca4(4522)/kdecore (services) KServicePrivate::init: The desktop entry file "/usr/share/applications/YaST2/users.desktop" has Type= "Application" but also has a X-KDE-Library key. This works for now, but makes user-preference handling difficult, so support for this might be removed at some point. Consider splitting it into two desktop files. kbuildsycoca4(4522)/kdecore (services) KServicePrivate::init: The desktop entry file "/usr/share/applications/YaST2/nfs.desktop" has Type= "Application" but also has a X-KDE-Library key. This works for now, but makes user-preference handling difficult, so support for this might be removed at some point. Consider splitting it into two desktop files. kbuildsycoca4(4522)/kdecore (services) KServicePrivate::init: The desktop entry file "/usr/share/applications/YaST2/security.desktop" has Type= "Application" but also has a X-KDE-Library key. This works for now, but makes user-preference handling difficult, so support for this might be removed at some point. Consider splitting it into two desktop files. kbuildsycoca4(4522)/kdecore (services) KServicePrivate::init: The desktop entry file "/usr/share/applications/YaST2/hwinfo.desktop" has Type= "Application" but also has a X-KDE-Library key. This works for now, but makes user-preference handling difficult, so support for this might be removed at some point. Consider splitting it into two desktop files. kbuildsycoca4(4522)/kdecore (services) KServicePrivate::init: The desktop entry file "/usr/share/applications/YaST2/mouse.desktop" has Type= "Application" but also has a X-KDE-Library key. This works for now, but makes user-preference handling difficult, so support for this might be removed at some point. Consider splitting it into two desktop files. kbuildsycoca4(4522)/kdecore (services) KServicePrivate::init: The desktop entry file "/usr/share/applications/YaST2/vendor.desktop" has Type= "Application" but also has a X-KDE-Library key. This works for now, but makes user-preference handling difficult, so support for this might be removed at some point. Consider splitting it into two desktop files. kbuildsycoca4(4522)/kdecore (services) KServicePrivate::init: The desktop entry file "/usr/share/applications/YaST2/host.desktop" has Type= "Application" but also has a X-KDE-Library key. This works for now, but makes user-preference handling difficult, so support for this might be removed at some point. Consider splitting it into two desktop files. kbuildsycoca4(4522)/kdecore (services) KServicePrivate::init: The desktop entry file "/usr/share/applications/YaST2/SD_logprof.desktop" has Type= "Application" but also has a X-KDE-Library key. This works for now, but makes user-preference handling difficult, so support for this might be removed at some point. Consider splitting it into two desktop files. kbuildsycoca4(4522) parseLayoutNode: The menu spec file contains a Layout or DefaultLayout tag without the mandatory Merge tag inside. Please fix your file.
3. Latency on menubar Just about every application, thunderbird & firefox in particular, but all the KDE applications as well, have a delay when top menubar items are clicked. I am used to this on LiveCD where the system has to drag in the relevant stuff from the CD but not on a real system. The KDE applications seem to cache items, the GTK applications don't seem to.
4. No sound. Sound has stopped working. Testing with LiveCD tells me its not a hardware problem The mixer icon doesn't appear in the system tray on starting KDE4 and when it is started everything is set to zero. Even then sound isn't working. This isn't a modules problem, the modules are all loaded as I expect.
# lsmod | grep snd snd_pcm_oss 47823 0 snd_mixer_oss 16817 1 snd_pcm_oss snd_seq 57265 0 snd_seq_device 6646 1 snd_seq snd_intel8x0m 12017 0 snd_intel8x0 27766 1 snd_ac97_codec 106641 2 snd_intel8x0,snd_intel8x0m ac97_bus 1082 1 snd_ac97_codec snd_pcm 88249 4 snd_pcm_oss,snd_intel8x0,snd_intel8x0m,snd_ac97_codec snd_timer 21876 2 snd_seq,snd_pcm snd 65966 11 snd_pcm_oss,snd_mixer_oss,snd_seq,snd_seq_device,snd_intel8x0,snd_intel8x0m,snd_ac97_codec,snd_pcm,snd_timer soundcore 6854 1 snd snd_page_alloc 8025 3 snd_intel8x0,snd_intel8x0m,snd_pcm
On 2011/04/30 08:38 (GMT-0400) Anton Aylward composed:
- KDM does not work. The greeter fails.
Discussed on opensuse-kde list more than once.
Are you ready?
(This is insane.)
KDE remains the default session type on a fresh KDE installation, but
KDE is no longer a valid session type. O_O
You must select Plasma as a session type if you want a KDE DTE. :-p
It was suggested that /etc/sysconfig/windowmanager's DEFAULT_WM= plays a part in this insanity.
Felix Miata said the following on 30/04/2011 9:54 AM:
On 2011/04/30 08:38 (GMT-0400) Anton Aylward composed:
- KDM does not work. The greeter fails.
Discussed on opensuse-kde list more than once.
So I see, googling to find the archives. I'm not ready to subscribe to every application-list -- that would be overwhelming, so I'm grateful to the people on *this* list who specialize
KDE remains the default session type on a fresh KDE installation, but
KDE is no longer a valid session type. O_O
You must select Plasma as a session type if you want a KDE DTE. :-p
I'm not sure what you are getting at here? Is this KDM or systemsettings where its Plasma or plasma-notebook?
It was suggested that /etc/sysconfig/windowmanager's DEFAULT_WM= plays a part in this insanity.
Well that's confusing. Some people seem to find 'startkde' (which is what I had) works, others didn't and used 'kde4'. I tried both and neither worked.
However this is all moot now. I was using 'startx' but something I did while trying to fix the above and the T'bird/FF menu delay problem has hosed X11. I now get
/etc/X11/xim: Checking whether an input method should be started. sourcing /etc/sysconfig/language to get the value of INPUT_METHOD INPUT_METHOD is not set or empty (no user selected input method) Trying to start an input method for the locale en.US-UTF-8 ... There is no input method for the current locale. Dummy input method "none" (do not use any fancy input method by default) xinit: connection to X server lost
This has me completely flummoxed. What now?
On 2011/05/01 08:29 (GMT-0400) Anton J Aylward composed:
Felix Miata said:
On 2011/04/30 08:38 (GMT-0400) Anton Aylward composed:
- KDM does not work. The greeter fails.
Discussed on opensuse-kde list more than once.
So I see, googling to find the archives. I'm not ready to subscribe to every application-list -- that would be overwhelming, so I'm grateful to the people on *this* list who specialize
Up to you. Resources are thin. KDE experts subscribed there don't seem to pay as diligent attention here.
KDE remains the default session type on a fresh KDE installation, but
KDE is no longer a valid session type. O_O
You must select Plasma as a session type if you want a KDE DTE. :-p
I'm not sure what you are getting at here? Is this KDM or systemsettings where its Plasma or plasma-notebook?
At the greeter.
It was suggested that /etc/sysconfig/windowmanager's DEFAULT_WM= plays a part in this insanity.
Well that's confusing. Some people seem to find 'startkde' (which is what I had) works, others didn't and used 'kde4'. I tried both and neither worked.
However this is all moot now. I was using 'startx' but something I did while trying to fix the above and the T'bird/FF menu delay problem has hosed X11. I now get
/etc/X11/xim: Checking whether an input method should be started. sourcing /etc/sysconfig/language to get the value of INPUT_METHOD INPUT_METHOD is not set or empty (no user selected input method) Trying to start an input method for the locale en.US-UTF-8 ... There is no input method for the current locale. Dummy input method "none" (do not use any fancy input method by default) xinit: connection to X server lost
This has me completely flummoxed. What now?
Get KDM to work for now, as it doesn't seem to have that problem. I ran into this mere days ago and so far haven't figured out any other solution that I can recall ATM. I was thinking /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/90-* may have something to do with it, but never followed through. You might want to ensure
Section "InputClass" Identifier "evdev pointer catchall" MatchIsPointer "on" MatchDevicePath "/dev/input/event*" Driver "evdev" EndSection
Section "InputClass" Identifier "evdev keyboard catchall" MatchIsKeyboard "on" MatchDevicePath "/dev/input/event*" Driver "evdev" EndSection
exists either somewhere in /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/ or in xorg.conf.
Felix Miata said the following on 05/01/2011 11:31 AM:
KDE remains the default session type on a fresh KDE installation, but
KDE is no longer a valid session type. O_O
You must select Plasma as a session type if you want a KDE DTE. :-p
I'm not sure what you are getting at here? Is this KDM or systemsettings where its Plasma or plasma-notebook?
At the greeter.
I don't follow that? Am I supposed to follow the kdmrc (!!!) to the greeter? I ask because systemsetting -> system administration -> login screen -> general
says [x] Use Themed Greeter
and everything else is set to 'default'
If you mean something else by "At the greeter" please explain.
Get KDM to work for now, as it doesn't seem to have that problem.
:-) I'd *love* to get KDM to work!
I ran into this mere days ago and so far haven't figured out any other solution that I can recall ATM. I was thinking /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/90-* may have something to do with it, but never followed through. You might want to ensure
Section "InputClass" Identifier "evdev pointer catchall" MatchIsPointer "on" MatchDevicePath "/dev/input/event*" Driver "evdev" EndSection
Section "InputClass" Identifier "evdev keyboard catchall" MatchIsKeyboard "on" MatchDevicePath "/dev/input/event*" Driver "evdev" EndSection
exists either somewhere in /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/ or in xorg.conf.
It seems the install set that to
Section "InputClass" Identifier "LocalKeyboard" MatchIsKeyboard "on" Option "XkbLayout" "us" Option "XkbVariant" ", winkeys" Option "XkbRules" "evdev" Option "XkbModel" "pc105" Option "XkbOptions" "" EndSection
Pretty normal US keyboard on a laptop
The bottom row of keys reads ctrl [fn] win alt space alt menu ctl and everything on the top row has [function] alternatives. I'm in no hurry to make them all work :-)
On 2011/05/01 12:14 (GMT-0400) Anton Aylward composed:
Felix Miata said the following on 05/01/2011 11:31 AM:
KDE remains the default session type on a fresh KDE installation, but
KDE is no longer a valid session type. O_O
You must select Plasma as a session type if you want a KDE DTE. :-p
I'm not sure what you are getting at here? Is this KDM or systemsettings where its Plasma or plasma-notebook?
At the greeter.
I don't follow that? Am I supposed to follow the kdmrc (!!!) to the greeter? I ask because systemsetting -> system administration -> login screen -> general
says [x] Use Themed Greeter
and everything else is set to 'default'
If you mean something else by "At the greeter" please explain.
ISTR your problem initially was that logging into KDE was looping back each time to the very same KDE login screen instead of starting a KDE session. The greeter is the KDM thingie, sometimes a little window, sometimes a whole screen, depending on theming or no theming, where you type in username and password, and have the option to shutdown and other things, among them to select a session type other than default.
Get KDM to work for now, as it doesn't seem to have that problem.
:-) I'd *love* to get KDM to work!
So try selecting plasma as a session type _at_the_greeter_. You haven't yet mentioned trying that. ;-)
Felix Miata said the following on 05/01/2011 01:16 PM:
ISTR your problem initially was that logging into KDE was looping back each time to the very same KDE login screen instead of starting a KDE session. The greeter is the KDM thingie, sometimes a little window, sometimes a whole screen, depending on theming or no theming, where you type in username and password, and have the option to shutdown and other things, among them to select a session type other than default.
Hm. YSTR .... not what I thought I said. No looping. If it was looping I'd have said.
In my mail of Message-ID: 4DBC02D6.2050909@rogers.com Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 08:38:46 -0400
I reported the error from /var/log/kdm.log which ended in
No protocol specified kdmgreet: cannot connect to X server :0
After the non-appearance of the login screen the console tells me that it has tried to run the processes in /etc/init.d/rc5.d/ and ending in "after.local"
I logged in as root then tried an "init 3" followed by an "init 5" and got a flash of a blank screen and than back to the console I did that a few times - this was the only 'repeat' :-)
Because I never get the login screen, and yes, in my time I've changed themes and done custom greetings with custom images, so I know of what you speak, I cannot change the session type; not to gnome, lxde, plasma or anything.
It is not looping; it tries once and dies. It never gets to try "startkede" and fails and loops back. It never gets to try 'kde4" .... The background image never appears The dialog box never appears The pulldown menu for session type never appears.
I'm stuck in text-mode.
So I login in as 'anton' in text-mode and run 'startx' and I get a GUI. So its not a problem with X.
Yes, I've tried reinistalling KDM. Yes, I've tried systemsetting -> ....login screen to set other themes and tor turn these off and use a custom image etc
The problem persists despite all that.
So try selecting plasma as a session type _at_the_greeter_. You haven't yet mentioned trying that. ;-)
Do you see now why I am unable to do that? (Which was why I never mentioned it.)
All you need to do is Just change the session type to kde plasma like as if you wanted to change to gnome or lxde.
You should only need to do this once.
Stuart
Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone
-----Original Message----- From: Felix Miata mrmazda@earthlink.net Date: Sun, 01 May 2011 11:31:36 To: opensuse@opensuse.org Subject: Re: [opensuse] 11.4 problems: KDM
On 2011/05/01 08:29 (GMT-0400) Anton J Aylward composed:
Felix Miata said:
On 2011/04/30 08:38 (GMT-0400) Anton Aylward composed:
- KDM does not work. The greeter fails.
Discussed on opensuse-kde list more than once.
So I see, googling to find the archives. I'm not ready to subscribe to every application-list -- that would be overwhelming, so I'm grateful to the people on *this* list who specialize
Up to you. Resources are thin. KDE experts subscribed there don't seem to pay as diligent attention here.
KDE remains the default session type on a fresh KDE installation, but
KDE is no longer a valid session type. O_O
You must select Plasma as a session type if you want a KDE DTE. :-p
I'm not sure what you are getting at here? Is this KDM or systemsettings where its Plasma or plasma-notebook?
At the greeter.
It was suggested that /etc/sysconfig/windowmanager's DEFAULT_WM= plays a part in this insanity.
Well that's confusing. Some people seem to find 'startkde' (which is what I had) works, others didn't and used 'kde4'. I tried both and neither worked.
However this is all moot now. I was using 'startx' but something I did while trying to fix the above and the T'bird/FF menu delay problem has hosed X11. I now get
/etc/X11/xim: Checking whether an input method should be started. sourcing /etc/sysconfig/language to get the value of INPUT_METHOD INPUT_METHOD is not set or empty (no user selected input method) Trying to start an input method for the locale en.US-UTF-8 ... There is no input method for the current locale. Dummy input method "none" (do not use any fancy input method by default) xinit: connection to X server lost
This has me completely flummoxed. What now?
Get KDM to work for now, as it doesn't seem to have that problem. I ran into this mere days ago and so far haven't figured out any other solution that I can recall ATM. I was thinking /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/90-* may have something to do with it, but never followed through. You might want to ensure
Section "InputClass" Identifier "evdev pointer catchall" MatchIsPointer "on" MatchDevicePath "/dev/input/event*" Driver "evdev" EndSection
Section "InputClass" Identifier "evdev keyboard catchall" MatchIsKeyboard "on" MatchDevicePath "/dev/input/event*" Driver "evdev" EndSection
exists either somewhere in /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/ or in xorg.conf.
In /var/log/messages I see
Apr 30 11:05:35 BigBoy kdm: :0[2561]: Received unknown or unexpected command -2 from greeter Apr 30 11:05:35 BigBoy kdm: :0[2561]: Abnormal termination of greeter for display :0, code 1, signal 0
I gogle around and I find
https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=113401
Now scroll down to "SOLUTION" I don't know how relevant that is since
a) /etc/hosts was 644 b) I don't have a /var/run/xauth *at all*
But I'm trying this.
OBTW: "messages" aslo reported
May 1 11:04:22 BigBoy kdm_config[3790]: Multiple occurrences of section [X-*-Core] in /usr/share/kde4/config/kdm/kdmrc. Consider merging them. May 1 11:04:22 BigBoy kdm_config[3790]: Multiple occurrences of section [X-*-Greeter] in /usr/share/kde4/config/kdm/kdmrc. Consider merging them. May 1 11:04:22 BigBoy kdm_config[3790]: Multiple occurrences of key 'Language' in section [X-*-Greeter] of /usr/share/kde4/config/kdm/kdmrc May 1 11:04:22 BigBoy kdm_config[3790]: Multiple occurrences of key 'ShowUsers' in section [X-*-Greeter] of /usr/share/kde4/config/kdm/kdmrc May 1 11:04:22 BigBoy kdm_config[3790]: Multiple occurrences of key 'UseBackground' in section [X-*-Greeter] of /usr/share/kde4/config/kdm/kdmrc May 1 11:04:22 BigBoy kdm_config[3790]: Multiple occurrences of key 'UseTheme' in section [X-*-Greeter] of /usr/share/kde4/config/kdm/kdmrc May 1 11:04:22 BigBoy kdm_config[3790]: Multiple occurrences of section [X-:*-Core] in /usr/share/kde4/config/kdm/kdmrc. Consider merging them. May 1 11:04:22 BigBoy kdm_config[3790]: Multiple occurrences of key 'AllowShutdown' in section [X-:*-Core] of /usr/share/kde4/config/kdm/kdmrc May 1 11:04:22 BigBoy kdm_config[3790]: Multiple occurrences of section [X-:0-Core] in /usr/share/kde4/config/kdm/kdmrc. Consider merging them.
but it has been doing that for as long as I've been logging .. a few years.
Anton Aylward said the following on 05/01/2011 03:13 PM:
In /var/log/messages I see
Apr 30 11:05:35 BigBoy kdm: :0[2561]: Received unknown or unexpected command -2 from greeter Apr 30 11:05:35 BigBoy kdm: :0[2561]: Abnormal termination of greeter for display :0, code 1, signal 0
I gogle around and I find
https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=113401
Now scroll down to "SOLUTION" I don't know how relevant that is since
a) /etc/hosts was 644 b) I don't have a /var/run/xauth *at all*
But I'm trying this.
An entry in /etc/tmpfiles.d to make sure /var/run/xauth is always there, even after cleaing out /tmp and /var/{run,lock} seem to have done the trick.
The next hurdle seems to be that my ~/.xinitrc isn't being processed.
Anton Aylward said the following on 05/01/2011 03:13 PM:
In /var/log/messages I see
Apr 30 11:05:35 BigBoy kdm: :0[2561]: Received unknown or unexpected command -2 from greeter Apr 30 11:05:35 BigBoy kdm: :0[2561]: Abnormal termination of greeter for display :0, code 1, signal 0
I'm having this problem again and a bit worse.
I can start KDE with 'startx' but I can't switch applications. I'm in T'Bird and clicking on 'terminal' on the panel or trying to start the kickoff menu .... NOTHING.
What happened?
Well Patrick posted about using 'zypper -v up <module>' for the things that 'up' wasn't updating and I updated the xorg stuff.
(Sorry, deleted that post; can't patch quote in)
Now I've got that problem again.
Yes, I tried rolling back to the older versions of xorg and kdm and the libraries but it hasn't worked, I've missed something.
There's a nasty sensitivity here ...
And that error message isn't useful. The greeter isn't saying what was wrong.
Can anyone advise on EITHER
a) how to drill down and find what is up with the greeter or b) ways to fix this from the command line without the gui
Thanks
Anton Aylward said the following on 04/30/2011 08:38 AM:
Now I have a bootable kernel I have worked though matters with 11.4
All the personal config came though intact :-) A lot of the system config has been altered and I'm not sure if that is just 11.3/11.4 differences or what.
These are the problems I see now
- KDM does not work. The greeter fails.
Resolved. See elsewhere in this thread.
- Lots of odd errors in config files Many things started from the command line produce stuff like this
kbuildsycoca4(4522)/kdecore (services) KServicePrivate::init: The desktop entry file "/usr/share/applications/YaST2/inetd.desktop" has Type= "Application" but also has a X-KDE-Library key. This works for now, but makes user-preference handling difficult, so support for this might be removed at some point. Consider splitting it into two desktop files.
Problem persists but does not seem critical at this point.
- Latency on menubar
This problem went away for no apparent reason.
- No sound. Sound has stopped working.
This persists and is confusing. I have sound working under ALSA with YouTube/flash but nothing else. No playback of MP3 or recorded video, no sound on DVDs, no sound on Skype, no sound on softphone. If I am successfully recording anything then I'm unable to play it back.
I've googled but so many of the discussions get around to PulseAudio and what they have to say about it is contusing and often contradictory. There are claims that ALSA can coexist with Pulse but that hasn't been my experience.
On 02/05/11 16:05, Anton Aylward wrote:
...
- No sound. Sound has stopped working.
This persists and is confusing. I have sound working under ALSA with YouTube/flash but nothing else. No playback of MP3 or recorded video, no sound on DVDs, no sound on Skype, no sound on softphone. If I am successfully recording anything then I'm unable to play it back.
I've googled but so many of the discussions get around to PulseAudio and what they have to say about it is contusing and often contradictory. There are claims that ALSA can coexist with Pulse but that hasn't been my experience.
Pulseaudio runs on top of alsa, so they definitely coexist ... could you describe your problems in more detail? What is your alsa device config / do you have pulseaudio installed at all?
In 11.4 many components (KDE, skype) expect pulseaudio, so you may have to put aside your previous bad experiences and try it out again to get everything working.
Tejas
Many thanks to those who worked though the problems I had getting things like sound working and clearing up other major and minor problems with the move to 11.4 and KDE4.6.
I suspect time will show other problems as I start sing the less common applications. But or now, things sort-of work with a few workarounds.
What's left has to do with session control. When I restart a session the setting and applications from the previous session are not restored:
* I have to restart klipper manually * I have to turn off nepomuk and reset it to 'off' in system settings * I have to re-run "alasmxer -c 0" since everything is muted and levels are set to zero
As for the last point, following Tejas's advice, I verified that "/lib/udev/rules.d/90-alsa-restore.rules" exists; and in "/etc/pulse/default.pa" there is a bit with description "Automatically restore the volume of streams and devices" uncommented But that hasn't fixed things.
PulseAudio _does_ work, but it still has an unfinished feeling and proved awkward to set up. The advantage on a single machine is far from clear.
Skype is a critical application for me, and while Skype seems to have integrated PulseAudio there isn't a lot of flexibility and the sound quality is poor compared to what I had with ALSA. It does work, *now*, but what I did to get it to work is unclear.
I started this thread with
- KDM does not work. The greeter fails. The log file reads
That problem went away for no reason I could figure and has come back for no reason I can figure. Perhaps some odd interaction in the various updates. See earlier in the thread :-(
-
Anton Aylward -
Anton Aylward -
Anton J Aylward
-
Felix Miata -
stuart＠bolin.org.uk -
Tejas Guruswamy