help with battle to switch to SuSE
It seems that at last with 8.0 I am slowly winning the battle to escape Windows, at least on the home front. At home my computer has been running SuSE 8.0 for more than a week and I am getting more apps installed and working. With Netscape, OpenOffice, VNC and a few messenger programs, I am getting most everything I need to finally be free of MS. A few days ago something rather funny happened. My 22 month old son found the power switch on the PC and pushed it, probably many times. He rendered the PC unbootable with just lots of 01's on the screen. I found that the bios had been messed up so it didn't recognize the hard drives. I fixed that and the PC was able to boot again with SuSE but I found that the Windows XP installation didn't survive. It was another reason SuSE is better than MS. On the work side, the Linux fight isn't going so well. My computer which is dual boot with Windows 95 and SuSE 8.0 is beginning to fail. My boss told me to put in an order for a new PC. I did that and specified SuSE 8.1. Management didn't say much about the dual Xeon 2.2 GHz processors but they said I will probably not get Linux. I was given a load of @#$%$# about how no one else in the company is going that way, Linux isn't supported, blah blah. With my recent experiences I am more convinced than ever that Linux is the way to go but the fight is going to be difficult here. Has anyone else in this list had this experience? Have you been able to win the fight? Any suggestions for me? Damon Register
On Friday 15 November 2002 11:34 am, Damon Register wrote:
On the work side, the Linux fight isn't going so well. My computer which is dual boot with Windows 95 and SuSE 8.0 is beginning to fail. My boss told me to put in an order for a new PC. I did that and specified SuSE 8.1. Management didn't say much about the dual Xeon 2.2 GHz processors but they said I will probably not get Linux. I was given a load of @#$%$# about how no one else in the company is going that way, Linux isn't supported, blah blah. With my recent experiences I am more convinced than ever that Linux is the way to go but the fight is going to be difficult here. Has anyone else in this list had this experience? Have you been able to win the fight? Any suggestions for me?
If I were you, I would do it by stealth. If you make a major fuss about getting SuSE, and then have any install/usage problems, you will have egg on face. Just accept the PC, with Windows whatever on it, and then take your discs in from home and install SuSE on another partition. This means that you can continue using Windows while you iron out any problems. Once you have everything running the way you want, then start using Linux day-to-day. If you can do all your work with it, then that is the best advertisement for it, and I suspect you will then get queries from others at work who want to "try" it. Kevin
On Fri, 15 Nov 2002 12:57:30 +0000 Squire Kevin Donnelly uttered the following:
On Friday 15 November 2002 11:34 am, Damon Register wrote:
On the work side, the Linux fight isn't going so well. My computer which is dual boot with Windows 95 and SuSE 8.0 is beginning to fail. My boss told me to put in an order for a new PC. I did that and specified SuSE 8.1. Management didn't say much about the dual Xeon 2.2 GHz processors but they said I will probably not get Linux. I was given a load of @#$%$# about how no one else in the company is going that way, Linux isn't supported, blah blah. With my recent experiences I am more convinced than ever that Linux is the way to go but the fight is going to be difficult here. Has anyone else in this list had this experience? Have you been able to win the fight? Any suggestions for me?
If I were you, I would do it by stealth. If you make a major fuss about getting SuSE, and then have any install/usage problems, you will have egg on face.
Just accept the PC, with Windows whatever on it, and then take your discs in from home and install SuSE on another partition. This means that you can continue using Windows while you iron out any problems. Once you have everything running the way you want, then start using Linux day-to-day. If you can do all your work with it, then that is the best advertisement for it, and I suspect you will then get queries from others at work who want to "try" it.
You COULD do this, but I wouldn't recommend it. I don't know how large the company is that you are working for, but there are reasons behind company rules. Not only could you end up looking stupid if you do something by stealth, you could end up getting fired. I DO run SuSE at home AND at work, but I am in charge of IT for my company. If you were in my company and I had a SOA (Standard Operating Environment) of Windows X/Office X/Custom App Y etc etc and you installed linux by stealth you would most definately NOT be in my good books. Regardless of any relative merits between various operation systems you are paid to be at work to do a job, and you should be provided with tools to do the job. Whether you (or I) think they are the appropriate tools has no bearing on the matter unless you are prepared to put the arguement to your boss and have him sign off on a change of toolset. I am glad you like SuSE (and Linux in General) and please continue to use it at home, but you would do youself (and linux) no good by "stealthily" installing it at work. You should convince your boss or your IT dept that linux is an alternative by legitimate means, not by going against their wishes. If you are fairly new to linux, you would be better served by running it yourself at home for a few months anyway to make sure you really know what you are talking about. I don't mean to flame you, but please look at it from the company point of view. When they provide the tools, they get to specify what they are. It would be like you getting given a company car, and deciding to spray paint it a different colour and change the engine, without authorisation. Before anyone replies to this, remember that I am I long time linux user (Since 1994 or 95), run a SuSE ftp mirror, and run an entirely SuSE network (Desktops and Servers) across several countries. I am not say don't use SuSE. Please Do! but do it without breaking rules :-) Cheers Peter Nixon - nix@susesecurity.com SuSE Security FAQ Maintainer http://www.susesecurity.com/faq/ "If you think cryptography will solve the problem, then you don't understand cryptography and you don't understand your problem."
Peter Nixon wrote:
You COULD do this, but I wouldn't recommend it. I don't know how large the 100,000 I think
company is that you are working for, but there are reasons behind company rules. Not only could you end up looking stupid if you do something by I admit I have mixed feelings agout rules but I do understand them. I have seen the damage coworkers do when they "think" they know what they are doing.
stealth you would most definately NOT be in my good books. I probably wouldn't get fired but your comment might apply
the job. Whether you (or I) think they are the appropriate tools has no bearing on the matter unless you are prepared to put the arguement to your Isn't that a contradiction? If I am to be provided with tools, of whatvalue are they if they don't help me or even hinder me in doing my job?
boss and have him sign off on a change of toolset. That is more-or-less what I am trying to do and this is why I am looking for help to provide a GOOD arguement.
You should convince your boss or your IT dept that linux is an alternative That is the really hard part.
If you are fairly new to linux, you would be better served by running it yourself at home for a few months anyway to make sure you really know what I would hardly consider myself on the same level as guys like Togan Muftuoglu but I have been tinkering since 1999 (SuSE 6.2). I have purchased several Linux programming books and have experimented a little with programming for Linux
I don't mean to flame you, but please look at it from the company point of I didn't feel the need for an asbestos suit :-)
view. When they provide the tools, they get to specify what they are. It Fortunately my group has been given a little more lattitude in that area. The problem is that my group is different that the majority of computer users in the corporation. I am in a small lab that does development and integration testing of Avionics equipment connected mostly by the MIL-STD-1553 bus. The primary (and almost sole) purpose of the computers here is to simulate 1553 devices or to communicate with other 1553 devices. The programs that run on these computers are written mostly by me using Borland C++. I would like very much to get away from the MS headaches we have to deal with over the years and I believe that Linux offers a good alternative.
On the positve side, I just finished talking with an engineer in another lab group within the company and found that they are using a lot of Linux. He just sent me several documents relating to this subject so it seems that the company is opening up to Linux at least to some extent. On the negative side, it seems that the company standard for Linux is Red Hat 7.2. Damon Register
* Damon Register;
If you are fairly new to linux, you would be better served by running it yourself at home for a few months anyway to make sure you really know what I would hardly consider myself on the same level as guys like Togan Muftuoglu but I have been tinkering since 1999 (SuSE 6.2). I have purchased several Linux programming books and have experimented a little with programming for Linux
Well I can say you are way ahead of me and my programming skills is probably worse then you can imagine :-) To give you an insight, I am Business and Mangament oriented as this is what I studied. Yes I play with the computers since 1978 ( could be 1979 I can not recall) and my best program I have ever used is Lotus Manuscript That was much better than Microsoft Word. For 20 years I conducted Scuba Diving courses training more than 10 000 people and I have been a PADI Course Director since 1993 training over 500 instructors with different nationalities and running courses in Greece, Russia England Turkey. I made (and making) money by teaching people how to make bubbles under the water and I sell the idea of how to make money by teaching this to other people. So my expertise is selling dreams and making them reality. I have other capablities under my hat like running seminars on Team building, Teaching Harvard Negotiaton Approach, and couple of Sales and Marketing Seminars. But no way I know anyhing about programming ( I can do what I need no further is necessary) The only thing that stops me going in to a Linux business is, it is misunderstood by the community in general much like diving and I had one experience with this mentality I would think twice for the second venture. In a business environment it is not the employee's time it is the owner's time that could being wasted. It is also management's vision where the company is heading to and deploying the tools to achieve this goal should be aligned with the vision. I would really love to see many companies use Open Source Operating Systems applications and this is only possible by a systematic approach ( I would call this ,with your pardon, brainwashing). This is what companies like SuSE doing OpenExchange , SuSE Linux desktop and not to forget the United Linux initiative. So rather rather sneaking in SuSE in a computer provided by the BOSS you have to use a well planned strategy Sun Tzu said: Strategy is the great Work of the organization, Insituations of life and death it is the Tao of the survival or extinction Its Study cannot be neglected Have a nice weekend Ps Ckm we are going to Tai restaurant together with Peter anything you want special :-) -- Togan Muftuoglu Unofficial SuSE FAQ Maintainer http://dinamizm.ath.cx
Togan Muftuoglu wrote:
Well I can say you are way ahead of me and my programming skills is probably worse then you can imagine :-)
maybe I don't know anything about your programming skills but I see that you have helped a lot of people in this group
Marketing Seminars. But no way I know anyhing about programming ( I can
but you sure know a lot about getting Linux to work
misunderstood by the community in general much like diving and I had one
You got that right! Otherwise, I wouldn't have any need to start this thread
( I would call this ,with your pardon, brainwashing). This is what
I thought that is what Gates does
Ps Ckm we are going to Tai restaurant together with Peter anything you want special :-)
I am not picky about food Damon Register
On Fri, 15 Nov 2002 20:36:40 -0500 Squire Damon Register uttered the following:
Togan Muftuoglu wrote:
Well I can say you are way ahead of me and my programming skills is probably worse then you can imagine :-)
maybe I don't know anything about your programming skills but I see that you have helped a lot of people in this group
Marketing Seminars. But no way I know anyhing about programming ( I can
but you sure know a lot about getting Linux to work
misunderstood by the community in general much like diving and I had one
You got that right! Otherwise, I wouldn't have any need to start this thread
Well, Damon good luck with your struggle. If you have need of specific help you can mail me direct as It's likely I will jump off this list again (I jump on and off it every few months, but the traffic is too high for me to be a regular) or find me on suse-security :-)
( I would call this ,with your pardon, brainwashing). This is what
I thought that is what Gates does
Ps Ckm we are going to Tai restaurant together with Peter anything you want special :-)
I am not picky about food
Well you missed out on some nice red wine, Thai Green Curry, and alot of SuSE discussion while our respective girlfriend/wife discussed relationships :-) Cheers -- Peter Nixon http://www.peternixon.net/ PGP Key: http://www.peternixon.net/public.asc
On Fri, 15 Nov 2002 10:34:06 -0500 Squire Damon Register uttered the following:
Peter Nixon wrote:
You COULD do this, but I wouldn't recommend it. I don't know how large the 100,000 I think
company is that you are working for, but there are reasons behind company rules. Not only could you end up looking stupid if you do something by I admit I have mixed feelings agout rules but I do understand them. I have seen the damage coworkers do when they "think" they know what they are doing. stealth you would most definately NOT be in my good books. I probably wouldn't get fired but your comment might apply
the job. Whether you (or I) think they are the appropriate tools has no bearing on the matter unless you are prepared to put the arguement to your Isn't that a contradiction? If I am to be provided with tools, of whatvalue are they if they don't help me or even hinder me in doing my job?
No. I am saying that you get provided with a toolset that is paid for by the company. If they are not appropriate then you need to make the company understand why. Anyway, Its friday arvo and I am not going to get into TCO of computer systems etc etc.
boss and have him sign off on a change of toolset. That is more-or-less what I am trying to do and this is why I am looking for help to provide a GOOD arguement.
You should convince your boss or your IT dept that linux is an alternative That is the really hard part.
If you are fairly new to linux, you would be better served by running it yourself at home for a few months anyway to make sure you really know what I would hardly consider myself on the same level as guys like Togan Muftuoglu but I have been tinkering since 1999 (SuSE 6.2). I have purchased several Linux programming books and have experimented a little with programming for Linux
heh. Yes Togan is a smart guy. I am about to meet him for dinner so I have to keep this email short :-) Please not that my reply email was as much to the people advocating you install by stealth as it was to you. I dnd't mean to denigrate you linux skills :-)
I don't mean to flame you, but please look at it from the company point of I didn't feel the need for an asbestos suit :-)
good :-)
view. When they provide the tools, they get to specify what they are. It Fortunately my group has been given a little more lattitude in that area. The problem is that my group is different that the majority of computer users in the corporation. I am in a small lab that does development and integration testing of Avionics equipment connected mostly by the MIL-STD-1553 bus. The primary (and almost sole) purpose of the computers here is to simulate 1553 devices or to communicate with other 1553 devices. The programs that run on these computers are written mostly by me using Borland C++. I would like very much to get away from the MS headaches we have to deal with over the years and I believe that Linux offers a good alternative.
On the positve side, I just finished talking with an engineer in another lab group within the company and found that they are using a lot of Linux. He just sent me several documents relating to this subject so it seems that the company is opening up to Linux at least to some extent. On the negative side, it seems that the company standard for Linux is Red Hat 7.2.
It does sound like you are a good candidate for linux then. I would suggest you point the PHB's at some of the recent Economist and Business week articles on linux. If you feel you can support youself, you should mention that also. There are plenty of mailing lists like this one that can help you with most of your problems. Maybe you should compare your programs speed etc running on linux also. If you wrote them there is a good chance you can port them pretty easy :-) HTH -- Peter Nixon http://www.peternixon.net/ PGP Key: http://www.peternixon.net/public.asc
On Friday 15 November 2002 11:02, Peter Nixon wrote:
No. I am saying that you get provided with a toolset that is paid for by the company. If they are not appropriate then you need to make the company understand why. Anyway, Its friday arvo and I am not going to get into TCO of computer systems etc etc.
I get what you are saying. If it were me, I might try openly telling them that I think Linux might have benefits in my work and I would like permission to experiment with it in the work environment, and could I have a Linux partition on the machine, while still leaving the standard company installation intact on another partition. If he presented his case reasonably and non-combatively, maybe they would surprise him by agreeing to it. *************************************************** Powered by SuSE Linux 8.0 Professional KDE 3.0.0 KMail 1.4 This is a Microsoft-free computer Bryan S. Tyson bryantyson@earthlink.net ***************************************************
Op vrijdag 15 november 2002 20:05, schreef Bryan Tyson:
them that I think Linux might have benefits in my work and I would like permission to experiment with it in the work environment, and could I have a Linux partition on the machine, while still leaving the standard
But call it a trial or a proof of concept, etc. Add a starting and an end date (1/2 year or so). Provide points that can be measured: - can all documents be viewed easily - is it possible to print to network printers - etc What email protocol is used (imap/pop/exchange). If the later you need to get an bynari connector license. -- Richard
Peter Nixon
On Fri, 15 Nov 2002 12:57:30 +0000 Squire Kevin Donnelly uttered the following:
Just accept the PC, with Windows whatever on it, and then take your discs in from home and install SuSE on another partition.
You COULD do this, but I wouldn't recommend it. I don't know how large the company is that you are working for, but there are reasons behind company rules. Not only could you end up looking stupid if you do something by stealth, you could end up getting fired. I DO run SuSE at home AND at work, but I am in charge of IT for my company. If you were in my company and I had a SOA (Standard Operating Environment) of Windows X/Office X/Custom App Y etc etc and you installed linux by stealth you would most definately NOT be in my good books.
What would be your reaction to a user who installed a 2nd HD and left it turned off in the BIOS except when booting Linux from a floppy? The SOA would be unaltered and the machine would be functionally unchanged. Few people would ever notice the 2nd drive unless they opened the case for some reason. I'm not advocating doing this, I'm just curious what your reaction would be if you accidentally discovered such a situation. -rex
You COULD do this, but I wouldn't recommend it. I don't know how large the company is that you are working for, but there are reasons behind company rules. Not only could you end up looking stupid if you do something by stealth, you could end up getting fired. I DO run SuSE at home AND at work, but I am in charge of IT for my company. If you were in my company and I had a SOA (Standard Operating Environment) of Windows X/Office X/Custom App Y etc etc and you installed linux by stealth you would most definately NOT be in my good books.
I have to agree with Peter here myself, being the Network Administrator here at my company, I'm more then network admin I'm pretty much the whole IT depart, my boss has the MIS title but knows nothing, ( want go into that, just say the users call on me), I do not like anyone installing or modifying the way the computer boots or works here since I'm the one who has to come behind them an mop up the mess they create. I have one guy here who likes to install stuff from the internet an he would not asked about doing so. I finally fixed his little red wagon when I put win2k on this machine an locked him out from installing stuff. he has user privileges only now. Tis not good to go behind the IT's back an do stuff without them being aware of it 1st an signing off on it. just my 2 cents worth. jack malone Network Administrator EAST TEXAS LIGHTHOUSE FOR THE BLIND dba HORIZON INDUSTRIES 903-595-3444 http://www.horizonind.com
On Friday 15 November 2002 12:47 pm, Peter Nixon wrote:
You COULD do this, but I wouldn't recommend it. I don't know how large the company is that you are working for, but there are reasons behind company rules. Not only could you end up looking stupid if you do something by stealth, you could end up getting fired. I DO run SuSE at home AND at work, but I am in charge of IT for my company. If you were in my company and I had a SOA (Standard Operating Environment) of Windows X/Office X/Custom App Y etc etc and you installed linux by stealth you would most definately NOT be in my good books.
Regardless of any relative merits between various operation systems you are paid to be at work to do a job, and you should be provided with tools to do the job. Whether you (or I) think they are the appropriate tools has no bearing on the matter unless you are prepared to put the arguement to your boss and have him sign off on a change of toolset.
You should convince your boss or your IT dept that linux is an alternative by legitimate means, not by going against their wishes.
Well far be it from me to lead some poor innocent astray! If there is an absolute embargo on anybody adding *anything* (software or hardware) to their work PCs, then clearly no worker should. No doubt there would be no need to either - in places with such superlative IT policies, software would never bomb or be allowed to obsolesce, systems would always be perfectly tuned for maximum efficiency, and if your PC went belly up it would be fixed within 2 hours. Why complain? But I suspect the reality is different for the vast majority of workers. Here, "supported apps" policies are mainly a way for IT to avoid having to spend precious maintenance cycles on weirdo apps that only one person uses, or some mess that someone got himself into. Although they may frown on "unsupported" software, it will hardly be a hanging offence. It was in that context (which in fact seems to be relevant to Damon's case) that I suggested "stealth" use - ie don't climb on a high horse about something when you'll have to dismount later; the key thing is to be sure you can do all your work on another platform before you start shouting about it. If you can, any sensible IT department would then be willing to give you a fair hearing. It's ironic, though, that "stealth" should be seen as such an undesirable term. Did all those servers which have spearheaded Linux' business adoption go through the normal "approved OS" hoops? I think not. Certainly, try to convince your managers by reasoned argument. Certainly, don't go against IT policies if they are writ in stone (though I think we can assume that Damon has enough nous to make his own decisions about that). But the best argument in favour of something is seeing it working, just as it was with all those servers. The desktop is no different. Kevin
* Kevin Donnelly;
On Friday 15 November 2002 11:34 am, Damon Register wrote: If I were you, I would do it by stealth. If you make a major fuss about getting SuSE, and then have any install/usage problems, you will have egg on face.
Stealth is definitely the wrong approach
from home and install SuSE on another partition. This means that you can continue using Windows while you iron out any problems. Once you have everything running the way you want, then start using Linux day-to-day. If you can do all your work with it, then that is the best advertisement for it, and I suspect you will then get queries from others at work who want to "try" it. i
I would say by all means NO to this approach as it may end up in an unpleasant situation, ie ( If this happens in my company this is a valid reason for the person to be out). Rules are established so everyone has a workable solution while making sure that the employee is concentrated on the job not the technical aspect of the tiny details that make the job happen and Computers just happen to fit this category. Unless you are in charge of the IT and has valid reasons for running (read testing ) SuSE I would not even think about without having the approval of the management. Plus by installing unauthorized software you are also breaking support contracts that your company has purchased. Yes use SuSE Linux by all means at your convince yet do not sneak in. If you think you have valid reasons to convince the Management please do so and I will be the first to support you by all means of information case studies etc. -- Togan Muftuoglu Unofficial SuSE FAQ Maintainer http://dinamizm.ath.cx
participants (9)
-
Bryan Tyson -
Damon Register -
Damon Register -
Jack Malone -
Kevin Donnelly -
Peter Nixon -
rex -
Richard Bos -
Togan Muftuoglu