Re: [S.u.S.E. Linux] Win 32 & Linux
Steven Udell wrote:
Steven T. Hatton wrote:
Zentra,
You say that people tend to migrate over to Linux based applications. I have noticed that Mathematica and WordPerfect are available for Linux. I don't know how well they are selling. I'm expect that it is a bit of a social deviance to use software that you actually buy in the Linux community. On the other hand, if Linux were to become as easy to use as 95/NT for the uninitiated, and Linux were capable of running software that people already have invested money in, there would likely be a mass migration from M$ OSs to Linux.
Hi, I would like to know more about Mathematica, and WP7 I do have for Linux. I know that Star Office 5.0 (which will be out very soon) will Do OFFICE97 stuff (namely WORD97), had a German friend translate Star Divisions WWW site for me, as the anoucement is only in German for now. And 5.2 SuSE should bring all the (somewhat) latest stuff to us in an easy package..
I want a SUSE T-shirt!!!!!!!!!! (black please) hehehehe (you can get them) How about a coffee mug too :) (i dunno if they have em)
As far as running standard Win32 software on intel platforms goes, there is no need for emulating the CPU as is done with a Sparc. All that needs to be done is to emulate the Win32 API. I am not a stellar programmer, so that "all" could be a lot more than I am making it sound like. The main reason that I bring this up is not to dismiss the programming effort required, but to observe that the intel based Win32 programs should perform at least as well under Linux as under M$ OSs.
Let's not turn LInux into windows9X, although, you might say well all the software(retail) is made for them. With the trend seen today, you might say MS overwelms everything else, this might happen for a few more years, but I think it will start to die off. By 1999 NT4.0 will be around only, and thats Unix based(MS Unix), MS will cut off the life support for DOS/WIN.Old.. and more people will start complaining.
Everyone had high hopes that SUN would continue with it, and get WABI to run win32's ; but they figure there really isn't a demand for it. Most linux users quickly switch to pure linux apps, or they dual boot to win95 or NT. zentara
I wana be PURE LINUX POWER
GNOMEs, Elfs, Trolls and Deamons...(is that all? ;) freewm, Binarys, QT, and you know demons(amt,kerneld)
(off note- I think a G3 Mac running Linux, would be more powerful than a SMP Best Intel slot one or two or ?? heh. or Merced(blah), or Alpha)
-- Steven Udell Wayfarers hettar@teleport.com for truth love sudell@teleport.com and courage <A HREF="http://www.teleport.com/~hettar"><A HREF="http://www.teleport.com/~hettar</A">http://www.teleport.com/~hettar</A</A>> -- To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e
Steve, I understand your point of view. You just don't want to have anything to do with MS-Bill. I see a place in my paradigm where folks like you could be fully satisfied with the same base Linux running on your preferred platform, while those who wanted to emulate Win32 could add that functionality to their Linux x86 systems. I have been working as a sysadmin for five years now. I remember when NT was in beta. I have watched it become a dominant market player. One of the most effective selling points of NT/95 has been the ability to do everything that a Novell server or client could do, and then some. Microsoft has produced some decent products. (Word is not one of these, BTW. ) Right now they are crushing Netscape's browser development by dumping IE on the market. That yanks my chain big time! Part of the reason that MS can do this is because of their virtual stranglehold on the intel OS market. If they could not sell NT at $250 per workstation and 95 at $100 per workstation, if there were a Linux alternative to NT/95, MS would have to compete more equally in the marketplace when it comes to other software products. Now consider what happens when Joe administrator sets up his Linux system to run MS-SQL server. If MS-SQL server works well and does everything a Unix based SQL server can do, then Bill gets to keep the business. If, on the other hand, MS-SQL can't hang with another product, perhaps a freeware product, Bill looses the market share. People who transition to Linux because they can get it for much less, and can still use their MS investments, will then be free to move between Win32 based products and UNIX based products. It is also likely that software producers would be more willing to compile software for other CPUs that don't run NT, but can handle Win32 calls through Linux. There would be no need to port the code to UNIX style calls. All of a sudden, people are using a Win32 API on a non-intel platform, and Bill isn't getting a cut either. The Linx/UNIX user who doesn't want to participate in this simply doesn't load the Win32 emulator on his system. He uses pure Linux software, and keeps a clear conscience. I guess what I am trying to say is that one of the best ways to break down the MS proprietary fortress is to emulate MS OSs. I truly believe that Linux/UNIX can "do that too". Remember when people were saying that the reason MS-DOS was so successful was because it would run on open system architecture. IBM made a killing on this strategy for a while and then found that is had created its own major competition? Well, its about time there was an open systems operating system that could stand up to MS proprietary products. Mathematica: I love it! I have not yet tried it on Linux. I have run it on DOS, 95, and NT. See: www.wri.com NT = MS-UNIX? I would not say that. I am not as knowledgeable about the core UNIX architecture as I am of NT's architecture. There are some major differences at the user interface level that I can speak authoritatively about. First off, that stuff about POSIX compliance? I work in a Major DoD lab, and nobody talks about POSIX. UNIX products run on UNIX systems and Win32 products run on NT/95 systems. The NT/DOS scripting language doesn't hold a candle to UNIX shells. The registry makes basic system administration easier, but puts many restrictions on what you can do with a system. NT seems to me to be slower in every respect than UNIX. I also have far more problems with Dr. Watsons than I do with core dumps. As a workstation I have little trouble with NT other than the fact that it seems to take twice as long to load things as it does on Linux. I installed suse a week or so ago. At first I figured that it was going to be a clunky curiosity that I would play with a bit here and there, while my real work would be done on NT. I haven't booted into NT in days except to retrieve files. I am thinking of buying a new system. Before I tried suse, I was debating between NT and Solaris x86. (which I do like, but has few applications which run on it.) Now I am almost sure that I will put suse on my new system. (if it will run on the dual Pentium II 333 Asus MB). I then want to set up Samba and network with my current NT system. Steve -- "Alles Vergaengliche Ist nur ein Gleichniss" -Goethe, as quoted in Ludwig Boltzmann's Vorlessungen ueber Gastheorie. -- To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e
This message disapeared into the bit bucket. I am sending it again. Steven T. Hatton wrote:
Steven Udell wrote:
Steven T. Hatton wrote:
Zentra,
You say that people tend to migrate over to Linux based applications. I have noticed that Mathematica and WordPerfect are available for Linux. I don't know how well they are selling. I'm expect that it is a bit of a social deviance to use software that you actually buy in the Linux community. On the other hand, if Linux were to become as easy to use as 95/NT for the uninitiated, and Linux were capable of running software that people already have invested money in, there would likely be a mass migration from M$ OSs to Linux.
Hi, I would like to know more about Mathematica, and WP7 I do have for Linux. I know that Star Office 5.0 (which will be out very soon) will Do OFFICE97 stuff (namely WORD97), had a German friend translate Star Divisions WWW site for me, as the anoucement is only in German for now. And 5.2 SuSE should bring all the (somewhat) latest stuff to us in an easy package..
I want a SUSE T-shirt!!!!!!!!!! (black please) hehehehe (you can get them) How about a coffee mug too :) (i dunno if they have em)
As far as running standard Win32 software on intel platforms goes, there is no need for emulating the CPU as is done with a Sparc. All that needs to be done is to emulate the Win32 API. I am not a stellar programmer, so that "all" could be a lot more than I am making it sound like. The main reason that I bring this up is not to dismiss the programming effort required, but to observe that the intel based Win32 programs should perform at least as well under Linux as under M$ OSs.
Let's not turn LInux into windows9X, although, you might say well all the software(retail) is made for them. With the trend seen today, you might say MS overwelms everything else, this might happen for a few more years, but I think it will start to die off. By 1999 NT4.0 will be around only, and thats Unix based(MS Unix), MS will cut off the life support for DOS/WIN.Old.. and more people will start complaining.
Everyone had high hopes that SUN would continue with it, and get WABI to run win32's ; but they figure there really isn't a demand for it. Most linux users quickly switch to pure linux apps, or they dual boot to win95 or NT. zentara
I wana be PURE LINUX POWER
GNOMEs, Elfs, Trolls and Deamons...(is that all? ;) freewm, Binarys, QT, and you know demons(amt,kerneld)
(off note- I think a G3 Mac running Linux, would be more powerful than a SMP Best Intel slot one or two or ?? heh. or Merced(blah), or Alpha)
-- Steven Udell Wayfarers hettar@teleport.com for truth love sudell@teleport.com and courage <A HREF="http://www.teleport.com/~hettar"><A HREF="http://www.teleport.com/~hettar</A">http://www.teleport.com/~hettar</A</A>> -- To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e
Steve,
I understand your point of view. You just don't want to have anything to do with MS-Bill. I see a place in my paradigm where folks like you could be fully satisfied with the same base Linux running on your preferred platform, while those who wanted to emulate Win32 could add that functionality to their Linux x86 systems. I have been working as a sysadmin for five years now. I remember when NT was in beta. I have watched it become a dominant market player. One of the most effective selling points of NT/95 has been the ability to do everything that a Novell server or client could do, and then some. Microsoft has produced some decent products. (Word is not one of these, BTW. ) Right now they are crushing Netscape's browser development by dumping IE on the market. That yanks my chain big time! Part of the reason that MS can do this is because of their virtual stranglehold on the intel OS market. If they could not sell NT at $250 per workstation and 95 at $100 per workstation, if there were a Linux alternative to NT/95, MS would have to compete more equally in the marketplace when it comes to other software products.
Now consider what happens when Joe administrator sets up his Linux system to run MS-SQL server. If MS-SQL server works well and does everything a Unix based SQL server can do, then Bill gets to keep the business. If, on the other hand, MS-SQL can't hang with another product, perhaps a freeware product, Bill looses the market share. People who transition to Linux because they can get it for much less, and can still use their MS investments, will then be free to move between Win32 based products and UNIX based products.
It is also likely that software producers would be more willing to compile software for other CPUs that don't run NT, but can handle Win32 calls through Linux. There would be no need to port the code to UNIX style calls. All of a sudden, people are using a Win32 API on a non-intel platform, and Bill isn't getting a cut either.
The Linx/UNIX user who doesn't want to participate in this simply doesn't load the Win32 emulator on his system. He uses pure Linux software, and keeps a clear conscience.
I guess what I am trying to say is that one of the best ways to break down the MS proprietary fortress is to emulate MS OSs. I truly believe that Linux/UNIX can "do that too".
Remember when people were saying that the reason MS-DOS was so successful was because it would run on open system architecture. IBM made a killing on this strategy for a while and then found that is had created its own major competition? Well, its about time there was an open systems operating system that could stand up to MS proprietary products.
Mathematica: I love it! I have not yet tried it on Linux. I have run it on DOS, 95, and NT. See: www.wri.com
NT = MS-UNIX? I would not say that. I am not as knowledgeable about the core UNIX architecture as I am of NT's architecture. There are some major differences at the user interface level that I can speak authoritatively about. First off, that stuff about POSIX compliance? I work in a Major DoD lab, and nobody talks about POSIX. UNIX products run on UNIX systems and Win32 products run on NT/95 systems. The NT/DOS scripting language doesn't hold a candle to UNIX shells. The registry makes basic system administration easier, but puts many restrictions on what you can do with a system. NT seems to me to be slower in every respect than UNIX. I also have far more problems with Dr. Watsons than I do with core dumps. As a workstation I have little trouble with NT other than the fact that it seems to take twice as long to load things as it does on Linux. I installed suse a week or so ago. At first I figured that it was going to be a clunky curiosity that I would play with a bit here and there, while my real work would be done on NT. I haven't booted into NT in days except to retrieve files. I am thinking of buying a new system. Before I tried suse, I was debating between NT and Solaris x86. (which I do like, but has few applications which run on it.) Now I am almost sure that I will put suse on my new system. (if it will run on the dual Pentium II 333 Asus MB). I then want to set up Samba and network with my current NT system.
Steve
-- "Alles Vergaengliche Ist nur ein Gleichniss" -Goethe, as quoted in Ludwig Boltzmann's Vorlessungen ueber Gastheorie.
-- "Alles Vergaengliche Ist nur ein Gleichniss" -Goethe, as quoted in Ludwig Boltzmann's Vorlessungen ueber Gastheorie. -- To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e
This is a very interesting thread. Seens that Billy has already manouvered to address the Unix issue in a temporary manner with OpenNT a unix emulator that works at the kernal level with NT. Now his little company is even handing out free Unix software. Now isnt this a novel concept. I really dont know much about this as I only ran across this site the other night and dont use NT. Im just a personal user of Linux, and love it. If anyone were to review this site and do a detailed comparison of this system vis a vis SuSE Linux this would be interesting. see <A HREF="http://www.softway.com/OpenNT/home.htm"><A HREF="http://www.softway.com/OpenNT/home.htm</A">http://www.softway.com/OpenNT/home.htm</A</A>> In my mind, this is a threat to Linux. SuSE and other distributions, simply by the fact that the typical user is slowley being intriduced to a Unix platform from a very simple and familiar platform. IMHO while the the win 32 thing may not be an issue for advanced users, or Linux enthusiasts, it is an issue of marketshare which simply means exposure. Aagain, in IMHO, this needs to be addressed by the Linux community in order for Linux to continue its meteoric rise to fame. IMHO Chris h -- To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e
Chris Herrnberger wrote:
This is a very interesting thread. Seens that Billy has already manouvered to address the Unix issue in a temporary manner with OpenNT a unix emulator that works at the kernal level with NT. Now his little company is even handing out free Unix software. Now isnt this a novel concept. I really dont know much about this as I only ran across this site the other night and dont use NT. Im just a personal user of Linux, and love it. If anyone were to review this site and do a detailed comparison of this system vis a vis SuSE Linux this would be interesting. see <A HREF="http://www.softway.com/OpenNT/home.htm"><A HREF="http://www.softway.com/OpenNT/home.htm</A">http://www.softway.com/OpenNT/home.htm</A</A>> In my mind, this is a threat to Linux. SuSE and other distributions, simply by the fact that the typical user is slowley being intriduced to a Unix platform from a very simple and familiar platform. IMHO while the the win 32 thing may not be an issue for advanced users, or Linux enthusiasts, it is an issue of marketshare which simply means exposure. Aagain, in IMHO, this needs to be addressed by the Linux community in order for Linux to continue its meteoric rise to fame.
Hi, I heard that Gates has claimed , as part of his anti-trust defence, that Netscape is an operating system!!!! This reminds me of one of the great possibilities with Linux... making a whole operating system that is specifically tailored to an application, and having free source code to do it. There is a neat little OS called QNX, which is mostly unknown except to developers. It can be tailored to any application for superior application performance. The same could be done with Linux. If you had a really good application, you could take linux and build a booting OS just to serve it. That would give full processor power to the application. I've been used to rebooting so much, that the 2 minute change dosn't bother me. Imagine having a choice to boot into 30 or 40 different custom applications all one one machine. Cad, graphics, and video applications could really benefit from their own OS's, and they will start to dominate as digital TV gets integrated with computers. Imagine sending out a worldwide video broadcast from your house. It won't be long before anyone could start their own TV network, with a fiberoptic link. It might be the way of the future. The free code of linux is ideal for this sort of "chameleon" computer. zentara -- To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e
participants (3)
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chris123＠netcom.ca -
hattons＠CPKWEBSER5.ncr.disa.mil -
zentara＠mindspring.com