On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 10:54 AM, PaPa NoeL wrote:

2008/12/3 Greg Freemyer

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On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 9:48 AM, PaPa NoeL wrote:

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Hello,

I'm trying to work out this raid card Adaptec 1430SA under OpenSuse. I know it's fake raid, but I'm not to keen on buying a new 3Ware card or a HighPoint (provided they are compatible).

I have tried to compile the binary driver from Adaptec's web site with no success. Furthermore, my installation should take place directly on the RAID array.

What I was wondering is: 1- is it really possible to compile this driver? (has anybody already done it? google told me "not really") 2- is then possible to make a driver disk? (linux dd) 3- Will I have to rebuild the driver for each kernel upgrade? 4- Can someone nice provide me a pre-built driver? ^^

Thanks for the replies as I am a bit desperate on this one!! Also, except nvidia's or Ati's driver compilation, I'm quiet hopeless in kernel building.

Best regards,

ElPaPaNoel

Do you "need" the fake-raid to work as opposed to pure software raid?

If not, set the controller up in JBOD mode (just a bunch of disks, no raid functionality)

Then use MDraid (pure software raid) to implement your raid setup.

Pros: -You don't have to find / test a little used fake-raid driver for your card. -MDraid and DMraid (fake-raid) both use the same amount of CPU resources, so no increased cpu load. -If the controller crashes, you can move the drives to any other supported controller because the config data is not proprietary to the controller. You can even split the drives between multiple controllers. Or put a couple off the MB controller, and the rest off of a PCI-express card, etc.

Cons: -The mdraid config data is linux specific, so you won't be able to have a dual boot setup with an alternate OS. (ie. windows).

Greg -- Greg Freemyer Litigation Triage Solutions Specialist http://www.linkedin.com/in/gregfreemyer First 99 Days Litigation White Paper - http://www.norcrossgroup.com/forms/whitepapers/99%20Days%20whitepaper.pdf

The Norcross Group The Intersection of Evidence & Technology http://www.norcrossgroup.com

Thanks for the fast reply. I have been "googleling" for weeks so in a way I know you are right.

However, here is my point: 1- I have bought that stupid card because the ICH9R was not supported (the raid fonctions), so even if I did a mistake, I've got the card and the performances are higher than the ICH9R.

I assume the standard JBOD driver for your card is in the vanilla kernel and thus supported by OpenSuse without doing anything. Correct? If so, use the card and get the performance, just consider using it as a standard JBOD controller, not a raid controller per se.

2- I didn't manage to build RAID10 using dmraid, and there was something I didn't like in the trick of building a BIOS RAID 1 and using Raid0 in DMraid (which should not work)

Neil Brown is the maintainer of mdraid and mdadm. I note he now appears to be a Novel employee and working aggressively on both the kernel and userland support of mdraid. If you can't get something to work by asking here, then ask on the mdraid mailing list. He monitors it closely as do many other knowledgeable people. linux-raid@vger.kernel.org

3- MDRaid or Dmraid might be lower in terms of performances

Why are the drivers provided by Adaptec such pain ?

They get out of date fast because the kernel changes rapidly and they are not "in-kernel". If you can find in-kernel drivers you are much more likely to get a stable solution because the kernel policy is for the person changing a feature set/functionality in the kernel to also update all in-kernel users.

I'm will not have a dual boot because all this is about a NAS server.

Am I correct that if I have the driver built for kernel-2.6.XXX-X, I will have to rebuild it again for Kernel-2.6.YYY-Y?

I normally use in-kernel drivers, but I am pretty sure you are correct, out-of-kernel drivers have to be compiled for the specific kernel they need to work with. I think even a suse security kernel update will trigger the same thing. I know with VMware I have to recompile every time I get a new suse kernel.

Best regards,

ElPaPaNoeL

Greg -- Greg Freemyer Litigation Triage Solutions Specialist http://www.linkedin.com/in/gregfreemyer First 99 Days Litigation White Paper - http://www.norcrossgroup.com/forms/whitepapers/99%20Days%20whitepaper.pdf The Norcross Group The Intersection of Evidence & Technology http://www.norcrossgroup.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

2008/12/3 Sandy Drobic :

Greg Freemyer wrote:

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I normally use in-kernel drivers, but I am pretty sure you are correct, out-of-kernel drivers have to be compiled for the specific kernel they need to work with.

I think even a suse security kernel update will trigger the same thing. I know with VMware I have to recompile every time I get a new suse kernel.

Yes, this is the case with self-compoled raid drivers as well. One of the reasons why I will not buy an raid controller that isn't supported natively by the kernel. It was a major pain to update the kernel while the areca module was not supported.

If I problems all the various problems the only conclusion has to be to use a natively supported raid controller.

Just the thought that a productive system will be down if some unsuspecting sysadmin installs a kernel update is already enough. Also booting from the raid is a bit tricky to configure with software raid compared to hardware raid.

It all comes down to the question in what currency you want to pay: - hard currency at once for a hardware controller - over a long time with more maintenance and more care for a software raid.

-- Sandy

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OK. Just to confirm what I have said: the raid tool during installation does not propose RAID10 ( Only 0,1,5). I'll go and check on the raid's mailing list. However, I really want to understand why can't it be possible to build a pakage of the driver (just like the one made for Suse Enterprise) on OpenSuse? http://www.adaptec.com/en-US/support/sata/sataii/AAR-1430SA/ If the ONLY solution is to use integrated Linux software raid, shouldn't I use the ICH9r then, and sell my Adaptec card? Or should I use Suse Enterprise? RHLE? or Windows? And finally, just to check the prices and figure out what I should do, does someone have the list of Hardware Raid cards supported ? I have check all the manufactures web sites (3ware,Hightpoint, areca...), and it's not clear to me what should work without a flaw. Thanks for you precious help! Kindest regards, ElPaPaNoeL -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

PaPa NoeL wrote:

However, I really want to understand why can't it be possible to build a pakage of the driver (just like the one made for Suse Enterprise) on OpenSuse? http://www.adaptec.com/en-US/support/sata/sataii/AAR-1430SA/

Santa, for starters, the source code from Adaptec is for kernel 2.4.x, whereas openSUSE uses kernel 2.6.x. Second, as far as I can tell from a quick glance at the current kernel, it already has support for that board - check out the Marvell SATA driver: sata_mv.c. It even mentions the board: /* Adaptec 1430SA */ { PCI_VDEVICE(ADAPTEC2, 0x0243), chip_7042 } Try loading module 'sata_mv' and see what happens. Joyeux Noël, Per Jessen -- /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

PaPa NoeL wrote:

The sata_mv is what the kernel loads by default on the latest version of OpenSuse. The disks are then recognized independently, not the array.

Hmm, have you tried using the device mapper? I haven't played with it myself, but I seem to remember a lot of the RAID functionality of external chipsets was moved in there. According to http://people.redhat.com/~heinzm/sw/dmraid/readme "The following ATARAID types are supported: Adaptec HostRAID ASR" I would investigate that next.

The driver given by adaptec gives the possibility to "ADD" the binary for the RAID bit of the card after compilation.

Well, that driver is not compatible with openSUSE 11.0. To use that driver, you'd have to go back to SUSE Linux 9.x. /Per Jessen -- /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

2008/12/5 Sandy Drobic :

PaPa NoeL wrote:

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Just to confirm what I have said: the raid tool during installation does not propose RAID10 ( Only 0,1,5). I'll go and check on the raid's mailing list.

However, I really want to understand why can't it be possible to build a pakage of the driver (just like the one made for Suse Enterprise) on OpenSuse? http://www.adaptec.com/en-US/support/sata/sataii/AAR-1430SA/

Because you would have to rebuild the driver disk for every new kernel. It's not worth the effort.

...

If the ONLY solution is to use integrated Linux software raid, shouldn't I use the ICH9r then, and sell my Adaptec card? Or should I use Suse Enterprise? RHLE? or Windows?

And finally, just to check the prices and figure out what I should do, does someone have the list of Hardware Raid cards supported ? I have check all the manufactures web sites (3ware,Hightpoint, areca...), and it's not clear to me what should work without a flaw.

Both 3Ware as well as Areca are running without much trouble. Though the 3Ware firmware seems to be a bit more mature.

-- Sandy

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OK, thanks. yesterday, I have tried to make RAID 10 work with DMRaid. Didn't manage to do it. So either I use a windows server, or I buy a new card. I have found a Hightpoint RocketRaid 2320 and it's not to expensive. However, I not 100% sure it's supported native. I couldn't find a serious list about hardware raid support. Best regards, ElPaPaNoeL -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

2008/12/8 Andrew Joakimsen :

On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 09:48, PaPa NoeL wrote:

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I'm trying to work out this raid card Adaptec 1430SA under OpenSuse. I know it's fake raid, but I'm not to keen on buying a new 3Ware card or a HighPoint (provided they are compatible).

I thought HighPoint were all fake RAID? I know for some HighPoint cards the driver is on the install DVD but you have to manually load it, not sure if that's a bug or a feature. You might want to do "modprobe DRIVER_NAME" when you boot the install disc and see if it is there already. You can get an Adaptec 2410SA or 2610SA for about 50 bucks. Nothing to write home in terms of performance, but it's real RAID and it works with openSUSE with no fuss.

I have NO PCI-X bus on my motherboard. It don't have a "real" server. So I must stick to PCe 16x (and less) or PCI 2.2. Maybe the best I can have (Price/Compatibility/Performances) is http://www.adaptec.com/en-US/products/Controllers/Hardware/sas/entry/SAS-240... . But it's 200€...

...

I have tried to compile the binary driver from Adaptec's web site with no success. Furthermore, my installation should take place directly on the RAID array.

What I was wondering is: 1- is it really possible to compile this driver? (has anybody already done it? google told me "not really")

Anything is possible, after all it is just lines of code.

Sometimes You need skills, and I don't have any in programing.

...

2- is then possible to make a driver disk? (linux dd)

Why not?

How?

...

3- Will I have to rebuild the driver for each kernel upgrade?

Yes

Is it worth the effort.

...

4- Can someone nice provide me a pre-built driver? ^^

You might be able to set that up yourself using the openSUSE build service.

I'll have a look! Thanks for you reply. ############################## Here are the disk stats with bonnie! On the sofware RAID10 NAS:/NAS # bonnie -s 1024 Bonnie: Warning: You have 2018MB RAM, but you test with only 1024MB datasize! Bonnie: This might yield unrealistically good results, Bonnie: for reading and seeking and writing. Bonnie 1.4: File './Bonnie.4057', size: 1073741824, volumes: 1 Writing with putc()... done: 62478 kB/s 99.6 %CPU Rewriting... done: 163661 kB/s 30.7 %CPU Writing intelligently... done: 169907 kB/s 38.2 %CPU Reading with getc()... done: 51410 kB/s 100.0 %CPU Reading intelligently... done: 3436072 kB/s 99.6 %CPU Seeker 1...Seeker 2...Seeker 3...start 'em...done...done...done... ---Sequential Output (nosync)--- ---Sequential Input-- --Rnd Seek- -Per Char- --Block--- -Rewrite-- -Per Char- --Block--- --04k (03)- Machine MB K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU /sec %CPU NAS 1*1024 62478 99.6169907 38.2 163661 30.7 51410 1003436072 99.6 112425.9 78.7 ON a NORMAL HDD (SDA) NAS:/home # bonnie -s 1024 Bonnie: Warning: You have 2018MB RAM, but you test with only 1024MB datasize! Bonnie: This might yield unrealistically good results, Bonnie: for reading and seeking and writing. Bonnie 1.4: File './Bonnie.3992', size: 1073741824, volumes: 1 Writing with putc()... done: 58997 kB/s 94.4 %CPU Rewriting... done: 56840 kB/s 8.7 %CPU Writing intelligently... done: 59270 kB/s 13.5 %CPU Reading with getc()... done: 51530 kB/s 100.0 %CPU Reading intelligently... done: 3595853 kB/s 100.1 %CPU Seeker 1...Seeker 2...Seeker 3...start 'em...done...done...done... ---Sequential Output (nosync)--- ---Sequential Input-- --Rnd Seek- -Per Char- --Block--- -Rewrite-- -Per Char- --Block--- --04k (03)- Machine MB K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU /sec %CPU NAS 1*1024 58997 94.4 59270 13.5 56840 8.7 51530 1003595853 100 118539.6 107

Andrew Joakimsen wrote:

Anything beats the crap they call "MD-RAID."

That's FUD. Andrew, I know you know better. Software 'md' and BIOS 'dm' RAID work just as well as a hardware card with the added benefit that you are not locked into a propriety card. You lose the card, even if you don't lose all your data, if you can't get the exact model as a replacement -- very often you are hosed. As far as performance, software RAID is every bit as fast and there is no performance hit due to the RAID: RAID1 2 drives /dev/sda and /dev/sdb. The third drive /dev/sda is a stand-alone drive. All the drives are the exact same model, Seagate ST3500630AS drives. 22:18 ecstasy:~/tmp> cat /proc/partitions major minor #blocks name 8 0 488386584 sda 8 1 1 sda1 8 5 72229 sda5 8 6 2104483 sda6 8 7 20972826 sda7 8 8 465234336 sda8 8 16 488386584 sdb 8 17 1 sdb1 8 21 72229 sdb5 8 22 2104483 sdb6 8 23 20972826 sdb7 8 24 465234336 sdb8 8 32 488386584 sdc 8 33 20972826 sdc1 8 34 467411175 sdc2 253 0 488386583 dm-0 253 1 488384001 dm-1 253 2 72229 dm-2 253 3 2104483 dm-3 253 4 20972826 dm-4 253 5 465234336 dm-5 [22:41 ecstasy/home/david/tmp] # dmraid -r /dev/sdb: nvidia, "nvidia_fdaacfde", mirror, ok, 976773166 sectors, data@ 0 /dev/sda: nvidia, "nvidia_fdaacfde", mirror, ok, 976773166 sectors, data@ 0 [22:41 ecstasy/home/david/tmp] # dmraid -s *** Active Set name : nvidia_fdaacfde size : 976773120 stride : 128 type : mirror status : ok subsets: 0 devs : 2 spares : 0 22:17 ecstasy:~/tmp> for i in $(cat /proc/partitions | egrep sd[abc0]$ | cut -b 23-27); do sudo hdparm -Tt /dev/$i; done /dev/sda: Timing cached reads: 3770 MB in 2.00 seconds = 1885.09 MB/sec Timing buffered disk reads: 210 MB in 3.02 seconds = 69.50 MB/sec /dev/sdb: Timing cached reads: 3622 MB in 2.00 seconds = 1811.38 MB/sec Timing buffered disk reads: 214 MB in 3.02 seconds = 70.82 MB/sec /dev/sdc: Timing cached reads: 3762 MB in 2.00 seconds = 1881.23 MB/sec Timing buffered disk reads: 230 MB in 3.01 seconds = 76.45 MB/sec RAID1 on 2 drives: /dev/sda and /dev/sdb. The third drive /dev/sdc is a stand-alone drive. All the drives are the exact same model, Seagate ST3500630AS drives. That's fake raid with $49 Seagate ST3500630AS drives on the stock SATA controller on a MSI K9 motherboard with openSuSE 11.0. There is absolutely nothing wrong with software raid at all. For my server setups, I prefer it. There is no reason for me to go spend $300 on a controller that isn't going to buy me any better performance. -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. | openSoftware und SystemEntwicklung Rankin Law Firm, PLLC | Countdown for openSuSE 11.1 www.rankinlawfirm.com | http://counter.opensuse.org/11.1/small -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Per Jessen wrote:

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As far as performance, software RAID is every bit as fast and there is no performance hit due to the RAID:

A dedicated hardware RAID card with write caching can significantly improve performance - didn't Sandy Drobic post some results just recently?

Performance isn't the deciding factor for or against a raid controller. My reasons for a controller is, that the installation directly on a raid is easy, migration to a different level (raid1 -> raid5 -> raid6) is supported and easy, integrating another disk is easy, the monitoring works practically out of the box, replacing a broken drive is as easy as ripping out the broken one and plugging in the replacement. No need to check if the mbr was copied bevor integrating, no need for md commands and sweating if the order of commands was correct or if I just hosed the system.

...

There is absolutely nothing wrong with software raid at all. For my server setups, I prefer it.

+1

Shrug, I am a hardware raid guy, but to each his own. -- Sandy List replies only please! Please address PMs to: news-reply2 (@) japantest (.) homelinux (.) com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Per Jessen wrote:

Sandy Drobic wrote:

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Per Jessen wrote:

...

...

As far as performance, software RAID is every bit as fast and there is no performance hit due to the RAID: A dedicated hardware RAID card with write caching can significantly improve performance - didn't Sandy Drobic post some results just recently? Performance isn't the deciding factor for or against a raid controller.

Really? Assuming cost is not a factor, to me performance is the only factor that matters in that decision. It's the one major advantage IMHO.

Nope, in my opinion ease of use is the best argument. I don't even have to know anything about linux to be able to replace a drive. If the shit hits the fan, the admin is sweating and prone to make a hasty mistake. This starts from installation without grub fiddling and continues with all sort of management tasks. -- Sandy List replies only please! Please address PMs to: news-reply2 (@) japantest (.) homelinux (.) com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org