On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 3:36 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Greg Freemyer [12-05-12 15:03]:

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On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 1:48 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote: <snip>

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please: http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_list_netiquette#Cross_posting

You're quick. That's been part of the official wiki page less than 24 hours! I wonder if it was discussed, or just added to the rules with little thought.

At one time(!tm) it was part of the "netiquette". Rajko put it back into the wiki page.

okay

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I'd argue that cross_posting is fine if everyone follows a reply-all philosophy and all of the lists allow posts by non-subscribers. It does simplify things if your email client deduplicates the emails. (I use gmail for mailing lists and it does that behind the scenes. I never know that I got 2 copies of the same email.)

Everyone does *not* use graphical readers for text functions such as email. And, gmail also does not show your own posts in the list, ie: not a cure for all.

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That's how LKML (linux kernel mailing lists) handles it, so those technically elite users encourage and use a cross-posting philosophy on their main lists. I see it employed all the time there and I don't recall anyone ever complaining.

Has been (was) a long standing "rule" here.

Then, I'm arguing for a rule change :)

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With LKML, the end result is a collection of 100 or so related specialized lists were specialists are subscribed to just a few lists and anyone can post to any of the lists. If an issue affects multiple areas, then the posters just cross-post to all of the various lists and the reply-all philosophy that is mandated on LKML lists makes it work transparently.

openSUSE lists are not LKML :^) just as all countries do not use metric or speak the same language. Reply-all w/o trimming to list-only is also frowned upon in the wiki.

I'm not arguing we MUST follow LKML's lead. I am arguing the the opensuse lists are similar in nature to LKMLs with a primary list and multiple specialty lists, and we should therefor benchmark ourselves against them. From my perspective, the LKML netiquette is superior.

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Fyi: numerous of the more technical opensuse lists have been open to all posters for years, they rely on spam filters to keep the spam out. A few spams get in every now and then, but I bet it is only 10 or 20 per year.

That has been proposed here and is utilized on a few lists, but not all. Spam is not a subject of this thread.

Happy to hear it. That is normally the biggest complaint about adopting a "open" communication style instead of the current "closed" style.

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fyi2: You should note I did not post this to multiple lists, but it is a perfect example of a post that would fit on more than one list. In particular, this one and -project. I don't really even know which one is the better choice. I chose this one only because this is where the reference link was made.

In responding to the original I clearly failed to remove the other lists but in this particular instance how is one to know the post will be seen and how is one to effect the archives show proper threading without?

Once a email is cross-posted, I agree the only good option is to keep it up. But with openSUSE lists often only accepting subscribers posts, that fails too. Thus I totally agree that as long as opensuse lists are typically subscriber only for posting, cross-posting should be avoided. eg. It is not a decision that can be made in isolation from other issues I raised.

cross-posting generates unneeded duplication and where one does not have the facility or knowledge to /dev/null those, he is bombarded with needless traffic.

I suspect cross-posting will always be the minority of emails. And email client rules can be setup to detect and kill dups.

The onus on providing readable content is on the poster and obligation is *not* transferred to the potential reader to clean the poster's mess!

I can only refer back to the LKML netiquette which is very different from the opensuse netiquette in regards to reply-all and cross-posting. They have found it works well and I'm sure there are various email client recipes available to handle the behavior in a smooth way.

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Clearly my vote is that ALL opensuse lists be opened up for non-subscriber posts and follow the lead of LKML for both the reply-all and the cross-posting netiquette issues.

And *clearly* should be proffered in a "new thread" as has nothing to do with *this* thread.

I guess this was a borderline thread high-jack. I did that because I quoted some of your earlier email. fyi: Is this mailing list the right place to discuss this? Or should it be on -project? In a cross-posting world, I could just add -project now and not worry about it. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

* Greg Freemyer [12-05-12 17:17]:

On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 3:36 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* Greg Freemyer [12-05-12 15:03]:

...

...

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That's how LKML (linux kernel mailing lists) handles it, so those technically elite users encourage and use a cross-posting philosophy on their main lists. I see it employed all the time there and I don't recall anyone ever complaining.

Has been (was) a long standing "rule" here.

Then, I'm arguing for a rule change :)

has been previously argued, you see the decision.

...

...

With LKML, the end result is a collection of 100 or so related specialized lists were specialists are subscribed to just a few lists and anyone can post to any of the lists. If an issue affects multiple areas, then the posters just cross-post to all of the various lists and the reply-all philosophy that is mandated on LKML lists makes it work transparently.

openSUSE lists are not LKML :^) just as all countries do not use metric or speak the same language. Reply-all w/o trimming to list-only is also frowned upon in the wiki.

I'm not arguing we MUST follow LKML's lead.

good, but sure seems like it.

I am arguing the the opensuse lists are similar in nature to LKMLs with a primary list and multiple specialty lists, and we should therefor benchmark ourselves against them. From my perspective, the LKML netiquette is superior.

superior is relative in this case. I do not think so.

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In responding to the original I clearly failed to remove the other lists but in this particular instance how is one to know the post will be seen and how is one to effect the archives show proper threading without?

Once a email is cross-posted, I agree the only good option is to keep it up. But with openSUSE lists often only accepting subscribers posts, that fails too.

Thus I totally agree that as long as opensuse lists are typically subscriber only for posting, cross-posting should be avoided.

eg. It is not a decision that can be made in isolation from other issues I raised.

I do not see that. The "rules" here have been formulated and debated over many years to result in present day "netiquette" presented on the wiki.

...

cross-posting generates unneeded duplication and where one does not have the facility or knowledge to /dev/null those, he is bombarded with needless traffic.

I suspect cross-posting will always be the minority of emails. And email client rules can be setup to detect and kill dups.

...

The onus on providing readable content is on the poster and obligation is *not* transferred to the potential reader to clean the poster's mess!

Again, the onus on providing readable and properly formed content is on the poster....

I can only refer back to the LKML netiquette which is very different from the opensuse netiquette in regards to reply-all and cross-posting. They have found it works well and I'm sure there are various email client recipes available to handle the behavior in a smooth way.

LKML should not be discussed here. We are *not* LKML. Many on m$ and yahoo and ... lists believe html to be *the* way to post and we do not.

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Clearly my vote is that ALL opensuse lists be opened up for non-subscriber posts and follow the lead of LKML for both the reply-all and the cross-posting netiquette issues.

And *clearly* should be proffered in a "new thread" as has nothing to do with *this* thread.

I guess this was a borderline thread high-jack. I did that because I quoted some of your earlier email.

fyi: Is this mailing list the right place to discuss this? Or should it be on -project? In a cross-posting world, I could just add -project now and not worry about it.

Discussion about the expectations for this list should definitely be discussed here. On -project discussion of this list netiquette would be off-topic. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, 2012-12-05 at 23:31 -0500, Greg Freemyer wrote:

If you are talking about on the server end, several opensuse lists already are open for non-subscriber posting and have been for 2+ years. The anti-spam filters are already in place, etc. Changing all opensuse lists is a relatively easy technical task.

Yes I agree, changing them all to CLOSED to non members. anti spam filters are not perfect, if you open up a high traffic list, you get loads of crud, and yes, just look at LKML as a example. A free posting high traffic list will gain a lot of attention in the spam AND anti-spam world, not to mention you WILL get members of free mail services marking messages as junk, enough of them do it, BAM, this list ends up blocked or auto-trash folder'd As for keeping this post on topic, I don't care one way or another about cross posting, but if you cross post to lists you are not on, its your own stupid fault.

Patrick, Somehow I missed your email below until now as I cleaned my opensuse folder for the last 24 hours. Obviously you and I are in disagreement. Such things happen, and due to lack of support I've given up on trying to get netiquette for this list changed. As such, -project was the only place I can think of to discuss netiquette for the rest of the lists. Greg On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 6:55 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Greg Freemyer [12-05-12 17:17]:

...

On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 3:36 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* Greg Freemyer [12-05-12 15:03]:

...

...

...

...

That's how LKML (linux kernel mailing lists) handles it, so those technically elite users encourage and use a cross-posting philosophy on their main lists. I see it employed all the time there and I don't recall anyone ever complaining.

Has been (was) a long standing "rule" here.

Then, I'm arguing for a rule change :)

has been previously argued, you see the decision.

...

...

...

With LKML, the end result is a collection of 100 or so related specialized lists were specialists are subscribed to just a few lists and anyone can post to any of the lists. If an issue affects multiple areas, then the posters just cross-post to all of the various lists and the reply-all philosophy that is mandated on LKML lists makes it work transparently.

openSUSE lists are not LKML :^) just as all countries do not use metric or speak the same language. Reply-all w/o trimming to list-only is also frowned upon in the wiki.

I'm not arguing we MUST follow LKML's lead.

good, but sure seems like it.

...

I am arguing the the opensuse lists are similar in nature to LKMLs with a primary list and multiple specialty lists, and we should therefor benchmark ourselves against them. From my perspective, the LKML netiquette is superior.

superior is relative in this case. I do not think so.

...

...

In responding to the original I clearly failed to remove the other lists but in this particular instance how is one to know the post will be seen and how is one to effect the archives show proper threading without?

Once a email is cross-posted, I agree the only good option is to keep it up. But with openSUSE lists often only accepting subscribers posts, that fails too.

Thus I totally agree that as long as opensuse lists are typically subscriber only for posting, cross-posting should be avoided.

eg. It is not a decision that can be made in isolation from other issues I raised.

I do not see that. The "rules" here have been formulated and debated over many years to result in present day "netiquette" presented on the wiki.

...

...

cross-posting generates unneeded duplication and where one does not have the facility or knowledge to /dev/null those, he is bombarded with needless traffic.

I suspect cross-posting will always be the minority of emails. And email client rules can be setup to detect and kill dups.

...

The onus on providing readable content is on the poster and obligation is *not* transferred to the potential reader to clean the poster's mess!

Again, the onus on providing readable and properly formed content is on the poster....

...

I can only refer back to the LKML netiquette which is very different from the opensuse netiquette in regards to reply-all and cross-posting. They have found it works well and I'm sure there are various email client recipes available to handle the behavior in a smooth way.

LKML should not be discussed here. We are *not* LKML. Many on m$ and yahoo and ... lists believe html to be *the* way to post and we do not.

...

...

...

Clearly my vote is that ALL opensuse lists be opened up for non-subscriber posts and follow the lead of LKML for both the reply-all and the cross-posting netiquette issues.

And *clearly* should be proffered in a "new thread" as has nothing to do with *this* thread.

I guess this was a borderline thread high-jack. I did that because I quoted some of your earlier email.

fyi: Is this mailing list the right place to discuss this? Or should it be on -project? In a cross-posting world, I could just add -project now and not worry about it.

Discussion about the expectations for this list should definitely be discussed here. On -project discussion of this list netiquette would be off-topic.

-- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-- Greg Freemyer Head of EDD Tape Extraction and Processing team Litigation Triage Solutions Specialist http://www.linkedin.com/in/gregfreemyer CNN/TruTV Aired Forensic Imaging Demo - http://insession.blogs.cnn.com/2010/03/23/how-computer-evidence-gets-retriev... The Norcross Group The Intersection of Evidence & Technology http://www.norcrossgroup.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org