[opensuse] ...what is the actual problem with pipewire?
...i mean, on my laptop it doesn't do any harm. It doesn't break sound, and it doesn't eat all my computing power or memory, so what is the actual problem? Cheers MH -- Mathias Homann Mathias.Homann@openSUSE.org OBS: lemmy04 Jabber (XMPP): lemmy@tuxonline.tech IRC: [Lemmy] on freenode and ircnet (bouncer active) telegram: https://telegram.me/lemmy98 keybase: https://keybase.io/lemmy gpg key fingerprint: 8029 2240 F4DD 7776 E7D2 C042 6B8E 029E 13F2 C102
On 11/10/2020 12:27, Mathias Homann wrote:
...i mean, on my laptop it doesn't do any harm. It doesn't break sound, and it doesn't eat all my computing power or memory, so what is the actual problem?
Cheers MH
Good question. I think that it is because it is unknown and maybe also because people do not trust unknown software as well as that they might not understand it. You can find explanations all over the Internet, but if you don't read or - after reading - trust that either, it does not help too. I also see no extra activity by pipewire. so, unless I forgo Firefox and switch to some obscure browser, we are stuck with pipewire. The only question I have is where to find a good explanation to substantiate the security claim. I have not found that yet. --- Frans. -- A: Yes, just like that A: Ja, net zo Q: Oh, Just like reading a book backwards Q: Oh, net als een boek achterstevoren lezen A: Because it upsets the natural flow of a story A: Omdat het de natuurlijke gang uit het verhaal haalt Q: Why is top-posting annoying? Q: Waarom is Top-posting zo irritant? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Mathias Homann wrote:
...i mean, on my laptop it doesn't do any harm. It doesn't break sound, and it doesn't eat all my computing power or memory, so what is the actual problem?
David - the OP - complained about it using up a full CPU. I don't see pipewire running on any of my systems. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (10.4°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Sunday, 11 October 2020 22:28:54 ACDT Per Jessen wrote:
Mathias Homann wrote:
...i mean, on my laptop it doesn't do any harm. It doesn't break sound, and it doesn't eat all my computing power or memory, so what is the actual problem?
David - the OP - complained about it using up a full CPU. I don't see pipewire running on any of my systems.
Just for run, I just did this on my Tumbleweed system: bakerr@mako ~ $ systemctl --user status pipewire.socket ● pipewire.socket - Multimedia System Loaded: loaded (/usr/lib/systemd/user/pipewire.socket; enabled; vendor preset: disabled) Active: active (running) since Wed 2020-10-14 22:11:53 ACDT; 1h 44min ago Triggers: ● pipewire.service Listen: /run/user/500/pipewire-0 (Stream) CGroup: /user.slice/user-500.slice/user@500.service/pipewire.socket Oct 14 22:11:53 mako.vk5ztv.ampr.org systemd[2213]: Listening on Multimedia System. bakerr@mako ~ $ systemctl --user status pipewire.service ● pipewire.service - Multimedia Service Loaded: loaded (/usr/lib/systemd/user/pipewire.service; disabled; vendor preset: disabled) Active: active (running) since Wed 2020-10-14 23:02:36 ACDT; 53min ago TriggeredBy: ● pipewire.socket Main PID: 9641 (pipewire) CGroup: /user.slice/user-500.slice/user@500.service/pipewire.service ├─9641 /usr/bin/pipewire └─9643 /usr/bin/pipewire-media-session Oct 14 23:02:36 mako.vk5ztv.ampr.org systemd[2213]: Started Multimedia Service. Oct 14 23:02:36 mako.vk5ztv.ampr.org pipewire[9641]: [W][000003063.723966][module-protocol-native.c:378 client_new()] server 0x55f1c77caf90: no peersec: Protocol not available Oct 14 23:02:36 mako.vk5ztv.ampr.org pipewire[9641]: [W][000003063.778251][module-protocol-native.c:378 client_new()] server 0x55f1c77caf90: no peersec: Protocol not available Oct 14 23:02:36 mako.vk5ztv.ampr.org pipewire[9641]: [W][000003063.778353][module-protocol-native.c:378 client_new()] server 0x55f1c77caf90: no peersec: Protocol not available Oct 14 23:02:36 mako.vk5ztv.ampr.org pipewire[9643]: [E][000003063.791438][backend-ofono.c:447 ofono_register_reply()] Register() failed: org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.ServiceUnknown Oct 14 23:03:01 mako.vk5ztv.ampr.org pipewire[9643]: [E][000003088.791010][bluez5-dbus.c:1455 get_managed_objects_reply()] GetManagedObjects() failed: org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.NoRep> So pipewire.socket is enabled (I did not enable it, yet the vendor preset is disabled, so something enabled it), and pipewire service is disabled, but running (triggered by pipewire.socket). That being said, I don't see any unusual CPU loading or RAM usage with it, so I probably wouldn't even have been aware of it had it not been for this thread. I wonder if David's issue is caused by it running in a VM under VirtualBox - perhaps it doesn't like the virtualised hardware? Regards, Rodney. -- ============================================================== Rodney Baker VK5ZTV rodney.baker@iinet.net.au CCNA #CSCO12880208 ============================================================== -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
14.10.2020 16:33, Rodney Baker пишет:
So pipewire.socket is enabled (I did not enable it, yet the vendor preset is disabled, so something enabled it),
pipewire RPM posinstall script does it. Which by itself is rather questionable (the way it does it makes it impossible for user to reliably disable it. It will be repeated on next package update). -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 10/11/20 5:27 AM, Mathias Homann wrote:
...i mean, on my laptop it doesn't do any harm. It doesn't break sound, and it doesn't eat all my computing power or memory, so what is the actual problem?
Two things (1) I run 15.2 in VMs with limited memory over the network. pipewire initializes a huge amount of virtual memory (no that's not used memory, its phantom reserved memory), and it takes more CPU than X, (2) we, openSUSE, have created a new dependency for the Firefox offered with the the distribution that is NOT an actual dependency of Firefox. The impacts user choice and the entire model open-source is built on. I have nothing against pipewire, but if I don't need it, as a Linux user, I have the "choice" to not use it. But by making it a hard dependency of Firefox, that "choice" is destroyed (and an extra 50M of hard drive) pipewire appears to behave differently between 15.2 and tumbleweed. On 15.2 it is automatically started whether you want it or not and if you look with top -- it will be top of the list chewing up CPU. It autostarts through /etc/xdg/autostart/systemd with an additional link through /etc/systemd/system/users It is a per-user service which makes it almost impossible to interface with through normal systemd systemctl command without appending an extra line of XDG_RUNTIME_DIR .... --user .... cross your fingers and wiggle your toes. See, e.g. https://unix.stackexchange.com/q/423632/197080 Trying to eradicate it is worse than trying to get rid of termites. An Chlordane is now banned. If you need it, by all means, use it, but if you are trying to run VMs with less than 2G of memory across a network -- it is a nightmare. -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E.
13.10.2020 06:05, David C. Rankin пишет:
(2) we, openSUSE, have created a new dependency for the Firefox offered with the the distribution that is NOT an actual dependency of Firefox.
On 10/13/20 12:05 AM, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
13.10.2020 06:05, David C. Rankin пишет:
(2) we, openSUSE, have created a new dependency for the Firefox offered with the the distribution that is NOT an actual dependency of Firefox.
Thank you Andrei, I've read the entire bug and this doesn't make pipewire a dependency of firefox, but an addition to webrtc. Firefox-esr 78.3.1 put out by Mozilla upstream does NOT depend on pipewire. So we shouldn't have it has a hard dependency of Firefox. If this thing is only used for zoom like conferencing, then it should depending on those tools, not basic Firefox and it should not be started unless something that uses it is started by the user. Since the bug referenced above, blocks or depends on at least 4 other bugs with the last two entries: Depends on: 1646904 (https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1646904) then No longer depends on: 1646904 left to Dan Minor [:dminor] (as Assignee), it doesn't specify that it be made a hard dependency of Firefox?? -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E.
On 13/10/2020 05.05, David C. Rankin wrote:
On 10/11/20 5:27 AM, Mathias Homann wrote:
...i mean, on my laptop it doesn't do any harm. It doesn't break sound, and it doesn't eat all my computing power or memory, so what is the actual problem?
Two things
(1) I run 15.2 in VMs with limited memory over the network. pipewire initializes a huge amount of virtual memory (no that's not used memory, its phantom reserved memory), and it takes more CPU than X,
(2) we, openSUSE, have created a new dependency for the Firefox offered with the the distribution that is NOT an actual dependency of Firefox. The impacts user choice and the entire model open-source is built on. I have nothing against pipewire, but if I don't need it, as a Linux user, I have the "choice" to not use it. But by making it a hard dependency of Firefox, that "choice" is destroyed (and an extra 50M of hard drive)
pipewire appears to behave differently between 15.2 and tumbleweed. On 15.2 it is automatically started whether you want it or not and if you look with top -- it will be top of the list chewing up CPU. It autostarts through /etc/xdg/autostart/systemd with an additional link through /etc/systemd/system/users
No, this is not true. I have this instant running 15.2 in an auxiliary partition in my old laptop, and after starting firefox there is no pipewire process: cer@Erebor:~> ps afxu | grep pipew cer 21542 0.0 0.0 8688 916 pts/5 S+ 06:49 0:00 \_ grep --color=auto pipew cer@Erebor:~> systemctl --user status pipewire.socket ● pipewire.socket - Multimedia System Loaded: loaded (/usr/lib/systemd/user/pipewire.socket; enabled; vendor preset: disabled) Active: active (listening) since Mon 2020-10-12 20:10:00 CEST; 10h ago Listen: /run/user/1000/pipewire-0 (Stream) cer@Erebor:~> systemctl --user status pipewire.service ● pipewire.service - Multimedia Service Loaded: loaded (/usr/lib/systemd/user/pipewire.service; disabled; vendor preset: disabled) Active: inactive (dead) cer@Erebor:~> I interpret this as a systemd socket listening, and if the port is probed, *then* it will start the pipewire service. Till that minute, no memory or CPU is used. I tried with <https://test.webrtc.org/> and situation did not change. I started a test meet at meet.opensuse.org, and situation did not change. I do not know what it takes to make it "run" actually. So there is something in your setup that makes it run, and you have to figure it out. I am using XFCE, and no, I don't have KDE or Plasma installed and will not install them. I think I have lxqt, but it is running an intensive rsync session I can not abort to test.
It is a per-user service which makes it almost impossible to interface with through normal systemd systemctl command without appending an extra line of XDG_RUNTIME_DIR .... --user .... cross your fingers and wiggle your toes.
See, e.g. https://unix.stackexchange.com/q/423632/197080
Trying to eradicate it is worse than trying to get rid of termites. An Chlordane is now banned.
If you need it, by all means, use it, but if you are trying to run VMs with less than 2G of memory across a network -- it is a nightmare.
I don't see why you have to start firefox in that situation :-? -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 10/13/20 12:09 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
No, this is not true. I have this instant running 15.2 in an auxiliary partition in my old laptop, and after starting firefox there is no pipewire process:
cer@Erebor:~> ps afxu | grep pipew cer 21542 0.0 0.0 8688 916 pts/5 S+ 06:49 0:00 \_ grep --color=auto pipew
cer@Erebor:~> systemctl --user status pipewire.socket ● pipewire.socket - Multimedia System Loaded: loaded (/usr/lib/systemd/user/pipewire.socket; enabled; vendor preset: disabled) Active: active (listening) since Mon 2020-10-12 20:10:00 CEST; 10h ago Listen: /run/user/1000/pipewire-0 (Stream) cer@Erebor:~> systemctl --user status pipewire.service ● pipewire.service - Multimedia Service Loaded: loaded (/usr/lib/systemd/user/pipewire.service; disabled; vendor preset: disabled) Active: inactive (dead) cer@Erebor:~>
This is completely different that it was installed on my box with KDE3. There is no way to interface with pipewire.socked on my install with systemctl --user status pipewire.socket It just says there is no such service. -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E.
David C. Rankin wrote:
systemctl --user status pipewire.socket
It just says there is no such service.
Did you run it as user, not root ? -- Per Jessen, Zürich (6.9°C) http://www.cloudsuisse.com/ - your owncloud, hosted in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2020-10-13 07:09, Carlos E. R. wrote:
cer@Erebor:~> systemctl --user status pipewire.socket
I'm quite sure pipewire is started by systemd and "Started Multimedia Service", as it says in my journal (journalctl). For what it's worth (not meant to point fingers at you Carlos), systemctl and status isn't the way to check the status right "now" [1]. It's more how systemd think it's _own_ unit/service status is. Use journalctl to find out what is and has been going on. As your own user: journalctl --user --unit pipewire.service journalctl --user --unit pipewire.socket systemctl --user list-unit-files | egrep pipewire My systemd status (on tumbleweed) $ systemctl --user list-unit-files | egrep pipewire pipewire.service disabled disabled pipewire.socket enabled disabled [1] From man systemctl systemd implicitly loads units as necessary, so just running the status will attempt to load a file. The command is thus not useful for determining if something was already loaded or not. The units may possibly also be quickly unloaded after the operation is completed if there's no reason to keep it in memory thereafter. -- /bengan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 1:09 PM Bengt Gördén <bengan@bag.org> wrote:
On 2020-10-13 07:09, Carlos E. R. wrote:
cer@Erebor:~> systemctl --user status pipewire.socket
I'm quite sure pipewire is started by systemd
You are shooting the messenger. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 14/10/2020 12.09, Bengt Gördén wrote:
On 2020-10-13 07:09, Carlos E. R. wrote:
cer@Erebor:~> systemctl --user status pipewire.socket
I'm quite sure pipewire is started by systemd and "Started Multimedia Service", as it says in my journal (journalctl).
For what it's worth (not meant to point fingers at you Carlos), systemctl and status isn't the way to check the status right "now" [1]. It's more how systemd think it's _own_ unit/service status is. Use journalctl to find out what is and has been going on.
As your own user: journalctl --user --unit pipewire.service journalctl --user --unit pipewire.socket systemctl --user list-unit-files | egrep pipewire
cer@Erebor:~> journalctl --user --unit pipewire.service Hint: You are currently not seeing messages from other users and the system. Users in the 'systemd-journal' group can see all messages. Pass -q to turn off this notice. No journal files were opened due to insufficient permissions. cer@Erebor:~> journalctl --user --unit pipewire.socket Hint: You are currently not seeing messages from other users and the system. Users in the 'systemd-journal' group can see all messages. Pass -q to turn off this notice. No journal files were opened due to insufficient permissions. cer@Erebor:~> systemctl --user list-unit-files | egrep pipewire pipewire.service disabled pipewire.socket enabled cer@Erebor:~>
My systemd status (on tumbleweed) $ systemctl --user list-unit-files | egrep pipewire
pipewire.service disabled disabled pipewire.socket enabled disabled
[1] From man systemctl systemd implicitly loads units as necessary, so just running the status will attempt to load a file. The command is thus not useful for determining if something was already loaded or not. The units may possibly also be quickly unloaded after the operation is completed if there's no reason to keep it in memory thereafter.
Curious. But as you see, by default a user can not see the log. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Hi, Am 13.10.20 um 05:05 schrieb David C. Rankin:
Two things
(1) I run 15.2 in VMs with limited memory over the network. pipewire initializes a huge amount of virtual memory (no that's not used memory, its phantom reserved memory), and it takes more CPU than X,
(2) we, openSUSE, have created a new dependency for the Firefox offered with the the distribution that is NOT an actual dependency of Firefox. The impacts user choice and the entire model open-source is built on. I have nothing against pipewire, but if I don't need it, as a Linux user, I have the "choice" to not use it. But by making it a hard dependency of Firefox, that "choice" is destroyed (and an extra 50M of hard drive)
pipewire appears to behave differently between 15.2 and tumbleweed. On 15.2 it is automatically started whether you want it or not and if you look with top -- it will be top of the list chewing up CPU. It autostarts through /etc/xdg/autostart/systemd with an additional link through /etc/systemd/system/users
It is a per-user service which makes it almost impossible to interface with through normal systemd systemctl command without appending an extra line of XDG_RUNTIME_DIR .... --user .... cross your fingers and wiggle your toes.
See, e.g. https://unix.stackexchange.com/q/423632/197080
Trying to eradicate it is worse than trying to get rid of termites. An Chlordane is now banned.
If you need it, by all means, use it, but if you are trying to run VMs with less than 2G of memory across a network -- it is a nightmare.
I'm following this pipewire discussion now for quite a while but wondering why we are turning in circles all the time. David repeats the same stuff all the time (typically that it's all my fault for building Firefox with wayland/pipewire support) while others (including Andrei) told him many times how to approach the thing and that a library dependency is NOT the issue here. @David, your "problem" is a running pipewire. Firefox may or may not be the reason why it's running for you. I have 15.2 and Firefox and still never have seen pipewire running. The library dependency does NOT hurt at all! There might be issues which can be improved somewhere but I don't see them in the Firefox package. E.g. it could be questionable that libpipewire-0_3-0 hard requires the package pipewire. But I guess that is still fine overall as long as just installing the package does not unnecessarily start the process. On my system the pipewire.socket service is also active but so far I never have seen pipewire running so NOTHING ever triggered the socket on my system. So David, your responsibility - in case you cannot figure it out yourself - at least to open a bugreport and having checked what on YOUR system triggers pipewire and if it's really required in that case. I have not seen a single reference to such a bugreport or any question from you to the community really trying to figure this out. All the time just the same type of blaming and complaining w/o listening to others. Since I assume this is just misunderstanding and not ignorance I decided to write that long story to make it clear finally and hope it's understandable now? Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 13/10/2020 08.32, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:
Hi,
Am 13.10.20 um 05:05 schrieb David C. Rankin:
...
I'm following this pipewire discussion now for quite a while but wondering why we are turning in circles all the time. David repeats the same stuff all the time (typically that it's all my fault for building Firefox with wayland/pipewire support) while others (including Andrei) told him many times how to approach the thing and that a library dependency is NOT the issue here.
Right.
@David, your "problem" is a running pipewire. Firefox may or may not be the reason why it's running for you. I have 15.2 and Firefox and still never have seen pipewire running. The library dependency does NOT hurt at all!
The bugzilla that Andrei Borzenkov linked this morning says in the first comment (two years old): «Desktop sharing needs PipeWire support to work under Wayland:» David mentioned he is using virtual machines, and I suspect he starts firefox remotely. Can that be a similar environment to "desktop sharing"? -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 10/13/20 1:32 AM, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:
@David, your "problem" is a running pipewire. Firefox may or may not be the reason why it's running for you. I have 15.2 and Firefox and still never have seen pipewire running. The library dependency does NOT hurt at all!
No, that's not correct -- if it was -- I would go fix. My 15.2 installs are plain Jane openSUSE. (with KDE3 as the desktop, or fluxbox or icewm) All I did was install Firefox, and then a few weeks ago the VMs started dragging and checking it was pipewire churning away with no way to turn it off. I dump the openSUSE firefox package and install from the mozilla buildservice repo -- same nightmare, pipewire churning away, So I remove the mozilla buildservice firefox and pipewire and go to the Mozilla.org ftp site and download and install 78.3.1 esr and there is NO pipewire dependency at all and firefox runs perfectly. The per-user service and autostart on 15.2 through /etc/xdg/autostart meant pipewire was running from desktop start on without a way to interface with it and turn it off. pipewire is NOT a dependency of Firefox, yet your rpms make it a hard dependency of firefox. The bug Andrei post does not make pipewire a dependency of Firefox. -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 10/13/20 6:02 PM, David C. Rankin wrote:
@David, your "problem" is a running pipewire. Firefox may or may not be the reason why it's running for you. I have 15.2 and Firefox and still never have seen pipewire running. The library dependency does NOT hurt at all! No, that's not correct -- if it was -- I would go fix. My 15.2 installs are
On 10/13/20 1:32 AM, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote: plain Jane openSUSE. (with KDE3 as the desktop, or fluxbox or icewm)
The crux of it all is this: If Mozilla doesn't consider pipewire a dependency of Firefox, why do we? -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Am 14.10.20 um 02:34 schrieb David C. Rankin:
On 10/13/20 6:02 PM, David C. Rankin wrote:
@David, your "problem" is a running pipewire. Firefox may or may not be the reason why it's running for you. I have 15.2 and Firefox and still never have seen pipewire running. The library dependency does NOT hurt at all! No, that's not correct -- if it was -- I would go fix. My 15.2 installs are
On 10/13/20 1:32 AM, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote: plain Jane openSUSE. (with KDE3 as the desktop, or fluxbox or icewm)
The crux of it all is this:
If Mozilla doesn't consider pipewire a dependency of Firefox, why do we?
Please paste the output of configure options under about:buildconfig from your mozilla.org build. And tell me the output of "window protocol" as can be found under about:support for the mozilla.org and the openSUSE Firefox. Because your claim is highly likely plain wrong. We consider libpipewire a requirement for working WebRTC support under Firefox under Wayland. And Mozilla considers exactly the same. Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
David C. Rankin wrote:
On 10/13/20 6:02 PM, David C. Rankin wrote:
On 10/13/20 1:32 AM, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:
@David, your "problem" is a running pipewire. Firefox may or may not be the reason why it's running for you. I have 15.2 and Firefox and still never have seen pipewire running. The library dependency does NOT hurt at all! No, that's not correct -- if it was -- I would go fix. My 15.2 installs are plain Jane openSUSE. (with KDE3 as the desktop, or fluxbox or icewm)
The crux of it all is this:
If Mozilla doesn't consider pipewire a dependency of Firefox, why do we?
Having pipewire installed does not cause any problem by itself. It seems to me the crux is why it is causing a problem on your setup, but not on others' ? -- Per Jessen, Zürich (8.5°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - dedicated server rental in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Am Mittwoch, 14. Oktober 2020, 01:02:37 CEST schrieb David C. Rankin:
On 10/13/20 1:32 AM, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:
@David, your "problem" is a running pipewire. Firefox may or may not be the reason why it's running for you. I have 15.2 and Firefox and still never have seen pipewire running. The library dependency does NOT hurt at all!
No, that's not correct -- if it was -- I would go fix. My 15.2 installs are plain Jane openSUSE. (with KDE3 as the desktop, or fluxbox or icewm)
KDE3? That's not "plain jane" openSUSe - I'm not even sure there still is KDE3 available anywhere for any up to date linux... Cheers MH -- Mathias Homann Mathias.Homann@openSUSE.org Jabber (XMPP): lemmy@tuxonline.tech IRC: [Lemmy] on freenode and ircnet (bouncer active) telegram: https://telegram.me/lemmy98 keybase: https://keybase.io/lemmy gpg key fingerprint: 8029 2240 F4DD 7776 E7D2 C042 6B8E 029E 13F2 C102
On 10/14/20 12:35 AM, Mathias Homann wrote:
Am Mittwoch, 14. Oktober 2020, 01:02:37 CEST schrieb David C. Rankin:
On 10/13/20 1:32 AM, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:
@David, your "problem" is a running pipewire. Firefox may or may not be the reason why it's running for you. I have 15.2 and Firefox and still never have seen pipewire running. The library dependency does NOT hurt at all!
No, that's not correct -- if it was -- I would go fix. My 15.2 installs are plain Jane openSUSE. (with KDE3 as the desktop, or fluxbox or icewm)
KDE3? That's not "plain jane" openSUSe - I'm not even sure there still is KDE3 available anywhere for any up to date linux...
Cheers MH
http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/KDE:/KDE3/openSUSE_Leap_15.2/ -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E.
On 14/10/2020 07.35, Mathias Homann wrote:
Am Mittwoch, 14. Oktober 2020, 01:02:37 CEST schrieb David C. Rankin:
On 10/13/20 1:32 AM, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:
@David, your "problem" is a running pipewire. Firefox may or may not be the reason why it's running for you. I have 15.2 and Firefox and still never have seen pipewire running. The library dependency does NOT hurt at all!
No, that's not correct -- if it was -- I would go fix. My 15.2 installs are plain Jane openSUSE. (with KDE3 as the desktop, or fluxbox or icewm)
KDE3? That's not "plain jane" openSUSe - I'm not even sure there still is KDE3 available anywhere for any up to date linux...
Sorry, openSUSE keeps KDE3 alive by community members. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 10/14/20 8:08 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 14/10/2020 07.35, Mathias Homann wrote:
Am Mittwoch, 14. Oktober 2020, 01:02:37 CEST schrieb David C. Rankin:
On 10/13/20 1:32 AM, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:
@David, your "problem" is a running pipewire. Firefox may or may not be the reason why it's running for you. I have 15.2 and Firefox and still never have seen pipewire running. The library dependency does NOT hurt at all!
No, that's not correct -- if it was -- I would go fix. My 15.2 installs are plain Jane openSUSE. (with KDE3 as the desktop, or fluxbox or icewm)
KDE3? That's not "plain jane" openSUSe - I'm not even sure there still is KDE3 available anywhere for any up to date linux...
Sorry, openSUSE keeps KDE3 alive by community members.
Sorry but if "openSUSE" was keeping KDE3 alive it would still be in our distro repositories. The correct term here is a community keeps KDE3 alive in obs, the openSUSE Project doesn't take any responsibility for packages not in our official repos. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
On 15/10/2020 05.45, Simon Lees wrote:
On 10/14/20 8:08 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 14/10/2020 07.35, Mathias Homann wrote:
Am Mittwoch, 14. Oktober 2020, 01:02:37 CEST schrieb David C. Rankin:
On 10/13/20 1:32 AM, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:
@David, your "problem" is a running pipewire. Firefox may or may not be the reason why it's running for you. I have 15.2 and Firefox and still never have seen pipewire running. The library dependency does NOT hurt at all!
No, that's not correct -- if it was -- I would go fix. My 15.2 installs are plain Jane openSUSE. (with KDE3 as the desktop, or fluxbox or icewm)
KDE3? That's not "plain jane" openSUSe - I'm not even sure there still is KDE3 available anywhere for any up to date linux...
Sorry, openSUSE keeps KDE3 alive by community members.
Sorry but if "openSUSE" was keeping KDE3 alive it would still be in our distro repositories. The correct term here is a community keeps KDE3 alive in obs, the openSUSE Project doesn't take any responsibility for packages not in our official repos.
Are we not all part of the openSUSE community? :-( -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 10/15/20 5:37 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 15/10/2020 05.45, Simon Lees wrote:
On 10/14/20 8:08 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 14/10/2020 07.35, Mathias Homann wrote:
Am Mittwoch, 14. Oktober 2020, 01:02:37 CEST schrieb David C. Rankin:
On 10/13/20 1:32 AM, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:
@David, your "problem" is a running pipewire. Firefox may or may not be the reason why it's running for you. I have 15.2 and Firefox and still never have seen pipewire running. The library dependency does NOT hurt at all!
No, that's not correct -- if it was -- I would go fix. My 15.2 installs are plain Jane openSUSE. (with KDE3 as the desktop, or fluxbox or icewm)
KDE3? That's not "plain jane" openSUSe - I'm not even sure there still is KDE3 available anywhere for any up to date linux...
Sorry, openSUSE keeps KDE3 alive by community members.
Sorry but if "openSUSE" was keeping KDE3 alive it would still be in our distro repositories. The correct term here is a community keeps KDE3 alive in obs, the openSUSE Project doesn't take any responsibility for packages not in our official repos.
Are we not all part of the openSUSE community? :-(
Probably (I didn't look at who's doing the work), but for legal reasons we have to be specific about what we do and don't call openSUSE, so for example saying there is a Community working on KDE3 for openSUSE, or that KDE3 is built for openSUSE is fine, but saying its a part of openSUSE or is made by or endorsed by is not. Unfortunately due to trademark law we need to enforce this otherwise we risk loosing our trademarks[1]. Yes i've spent more time then i'd like looking at trademark related issues in the last 3 years. 1. https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Trademark_guidelines -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
On 15/10/2020 12.42, Simon Lees wrote:
On 10/15/20 5:37 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 15/10/2020 05.45, Simon Lees wrote:
On 10/14/20 8:08 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 14/10/2020 07.35, Mathias Homann wrote:
Am Mittwoch, 14. Oktober 2020, 01:02:37 CEST schrieb David C. Rankin:
On 10/13/20 1:32 AM, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote: > @David, your "problem" is a running pipewire. Firefox may > or may not be the reason why it's running for you. I have > 15.2 and Firefox and still never have seen pipewire > running. The library dependency does NOT hurt at all!
No, that's not correct -- if it was -- I would go fix. My 15.2 installs are plain Jane openSUSE. (with KDE3 as the desktop, or fluxbox or icewm)
KDE3? That's not "plain jane" openSUSe - I'm not even sure there still is KDE3 available anywhere for any up to date linux...
Sorry, openSUSE keeps KDE3 alive by community members.
Sorry but if "openSUSE" was keeping KDE3 alive it would still be in our distro repositories. The correct term here is a community keeps KDE3 alive in obs, the openSUSE Project doesn't take any responsibility for packages not in our official repos.
Are we not all part of the openSUSE community? :-(
Probably (I didn't look at who's doing the work), but for legal reasons we have to be specific about what we do and don't call openSUSE, so for example saying there is a Community working on KDE3 for openSUSE, or that KDE3 is built for openSUSE is fine, but saying its a part of openSUSE or is made by or endorsed by is not. Unfortunately due to trademark law we need to enforce this otherwise we risk loosing our trademarks[1]. Yes i've spent more time then i'd like looking at trademark related issues in the last 3 years.
Well, I'm afraid this reinforces the "us" and "them" issue :-(
-- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 10/15/20 9:17 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 15/10/2020 12.42, Simon Lees wrote:
On 10/15/20 5:37 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 15/10/2020 05.45, Simon Lees wrote:
On 10/14/20 8:08 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 14/10/2020 07.35, Mathias Homann wrote:
Am Mittwoch, 14. Oktober 2020, 01:02:37 CEST schrieb David C. Rankin: > On 10/13/20 1:32 AM, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote: >> @David, your "problem" is a running pipewire. Firefox may >> or may not be the reason why it's running for you. I have >> 15.2 and Firefox and still never have seen pipewire >> running. The library dependency does NOT hurt at all! > > No, that's not correct -- if it was -- I would go fix. My > 15.2 installs are plain Jane openSUSE. (with KDE3 as the > desktop, or fluxbox or icewm)
KDE3? That's not "plain jane" openSUSe - I'm not even sure there still is KDE3 available anywhere for any up to date linux...
Sorry, openSUSE keeps KDE3 alive by community members.
Sorry but if "openSUSE" was keeping KDE3 alive it would still be in our distro repositories. The correct term here is a community keeps KDE3 alive in obs, the openSUSE Project doesn't take any responsibility for packages not in our official repos.
Are we not all part of the openSUSE community? :-(
Probably (I didn't look at who's doing the work), but for legal reasons we have to be specific about what we do and don't call openSUSE, so for example saying there is a Community working on KDE3 for openSUSE, or that KDE3 is built for openSUSE is fine, but saying its a part of openSUSE or is made by or endorsed by is not. Unfortunately due to trademark law we need to enforce this otherwise we risk loosing our trademarks[1]. Yes i've spent more time then i'd like looking at trademark related issues in the last 3 years.
Well, I'm afraid this reinforces the "us" and "them" issue :-(
Well we actively encourage and make it as easy as possible for any "them" to contribute there code into openSUSE and become part of the "us". -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
On 15/10/2020 13.57, Simon Lees wrote:
On 10/15/20 9:17 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 15/10/2020 12.42, Simon Lees wrote:
On 10/15/20 5:37 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 15/10/2020 05.45, Simon Lees wrote:
On 10/14/20 8:08 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 14/10/2020 07.35, Mathias Homann wrote: > Am Mittwoch, 14. Oktober 2020, 01:02:37 CEST schrieb David C. Rankin: >> On 10/13/20 1:32 AM, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote: >>> @David, your "problem" is a running pipewire. Firefox may >>> or may not be the reason why it's running for you. I have >>> 15.2 and Firefox and still never have seen pipewire >>> running. The library dependency does NOT hurt at all! >> >> No, that's not correct -- if it was -- I would go fix. My >> 15.2 installs are plain Jane openSUSE. (with KDE3 as the >> desktop, or fluxbox or icewm) > > KDE3? That's not "plain jane" openSUSe - I'm not even sure > there still is KDE3 available anywhere for any up to date > linux...
Sorry, openSUSE keeps KDE3 alive by community members.
Sorry but if "openSUSE" was keeping KDE3 alive it would still be in our distro repositories. The correct term here is a community keeps KDE3 alive in obs, the openSUSE Project doesn't take any responsibility for packages not in our official repos.
Are we not all part of the openSUSE community? :-(
Probably (I didn't look at who's doing the work), but for legal reasons we have to be specific about what we do and don't call openSUSE, so for example saying there is a Community working on KDE3 for openSUSE, or that KDE3 is built for openSUSE is fine, but saying its a part of openSUSE or is made by or endorsed by is not. Unfortunately due to trademark law we need to enforce this otherwise we risk loosing our trademarks[1]. Yes i've spent more time then i'd like looking at trademark related issues in the last 3 years.
Well, I'm afraid this reinforces the "us" and "them" issue :-(
Well we actively encourage and make it as easy as possible for any "them" to contribute there code into openSUSE and become part of the "us".
What for? We will be outsiders, not part of the community any longer. I feel alienated, wanting to stop my small contributions :-( -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Am 14.10.20 um 01:02 schrieb David C. Rankin:
On 10/13/20 1:32 AM, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:
@David, your "problem" is a running pipewire. Firefox may or may not be the reason why it's running for you. I have 15.2 and Firefox and still never have seen pipewire running. The library dependency does NOT hurt at all!
No, that's not correct -- if it was -- I would go fix. My 15.2 installs are plain Jane openSUSE. (with KDE3 as the desktop, or fluxbox or icewm)
What is not correct? You are trying to tell me that my statement: "I have 15.2 and Firefox and still never have seen pipewire running. The library dependency does NOT hurt at all!" is incorrect? Now I'm curious. I told you now several times that the lib depedency is not the root cause of what you are seeing. You need to find out why pipewire is started on your system and need to identify if it actually is a bug and where to fix it. Firefox is about 99,9% not the right place to fix!
So I remove the mozilla buildservice firefox and pipewire and go to the Mozilla.org ftp site and download and install 78.3.1 esr and there is NO pipewire dependency at all and firefox runs perfectly.
Same happens if you use the openSUSE Firefox w/o running pipewire.
The per-user service and autostart on 15.2 through /etc/xdg/autostart meant pipewire was running from desktop start on without a way to interface with it and turn it off.
Now it's getting more interesting finally. Which autostart in /etc/xdg/autostart you are talking about? pipewire autostart? Who is dropping it there? Go find out and file a bug which actually make sense!
pipewire is NOT a dependency of Firefox, yet your rpms make it a hard dependency of firefox.
No, my RPMs require libpipewire which is something different and I still consider it totally valid.
The bug Andrei post does not make pipewire a dependency of Firefox.
oh, it does. Seems you are the Firefox expert here. Want to help maintaining it? The only difference is that the upstream Firefox is _broken_ as it hard depends on an old version of pipewire which we fixed in our packages to actually allow users running Firefox under wayland to share their screen in WebRTC sessions. Sorry for that! Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 14/10/2020 01.02, David C. Rankin wrote:
The per-user service and autostart on 15.2 through /etc/xdg/autostart meant pipewire was running from desktop start on without a way to interface with it and turn it off.
cer@Erebor:~> grep pipe /etc/xdg/autostart/* cer@Erebor:~> cer@Erebor:~> cat /etc/os-release NAME="openSUSE Leap" VERSION="15.2" ID="opensuse-leap" ... No pipewire in my autostart files here. Maybe kde3 is starting it differently. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Am Dienstag, 13. Oktober 2020, 05:05:29 CEST schrieb David C. Rankin:
On 10/11/20 5:27 AM, Mathias Homann wrote:
...i mean, on my laptop it doesn't do any harm. It doesn't break sound, and it doesn't eat all my computing power or memory, so what is the actual problem? Two things
(1) I run 15.2 in VMs with limited memory over the network. pipewire initializes a huge amount of virtual memory (no that's not used memory, its phantom reserved memory), and it takes more CPU than X,
I can't say that it does that here - pipewire is somewhere in the lower half of running processes when htop sorts by CPU usage, and the reserved memory, while being a bit big, is nothing compared to something like baloo which reserves 256 GIGABYTES.
(2) we, openSUSE, have created a new dependency for the Firefox offered with the the distribution that is NOT an actual dependency of Firefox. The impacts user choice and the entire model open-source is built on. I have nothing against pipewire, but if I don't need it, as a Linux user, I have the "choice" to not use it. But by making it a hard dependency of Firefox, that "choice" is destroyed (and an extra 50M of hard drive)
agreeing with you here. unless something is actually NEEDED for XYZ to function it should not be a hard dependency - only a Recommends at best.
pipewire appears to behave differently between 15.2 and tumbleweed. On 15.2 it is automatically started whether you want it or not and if you look with top -- it will be top of the list chewing up CPU. It autostarts through /etc/xdg/autostart/systemd with an additional link through /etc/systemd/system/users
It is a per-user service which makes it almost impossible to interface with through normal systemd systemctl command without appending an extra line of XDG_RUNTIME_DIR .... --user .... cross your fingers and wiggle your toes.
I'm not so sure if this isn't actually a general systemd problem...
If you need it, by all means, use it, but if you are trying to run VMs with less than 2G of memory across a network -- it is a nightmare.
Why are you running VMs with less than 2G over the network with a graphical UI? or maybe you're NOT and that is what makes pipewire clog your CPU? If your VMs actually run in graphical.target, add memory or switch to text mode... Cheers MH -- Mathias Homann Mathias.Homann@openSUSE.org OBS: lemmy04 Jabber (XMPP): lemmy@tuxonline.tech IRC: [Lemmy] on freenode and ircnet (bouncer active) telegram: https://telegram.me/lemmy98 keybase: https://keybase.io/lemmy gpg key fingerprint: 8029 2240 F4DD 7776 E7D2 C042 6B8E 029E 13F2 C102
On 10/13/20 3:37 AM, Mathias Homann wrote:
Why are you running VMs with less than 2G over the network with a graphical UI? or maybe you're NOT and that is what makes pipewire clog your CPU?
If your VMs actually run in graphical.target, add memory or switch to text mode...
Cheers MH
This is exactly how I do it. The VM runs on the server and I use it via rdesktop, with the full graphical target. This via virtualbox 6.1.14. Switching to text mode would completely undermine the way the VMs are used. -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E.
Am Mittwoch, 14. Oktober 2020, 01:06:17 CEST schrieb David C. Rankin:
On 10/13/20 3:37 AM, Mathias Homann wrote:
Why are you running VMs with less than 2G over the network with a graphical UI? or maybe you're NOT and that is what makes pipewire clog your CPU?
If your VMs actually run in graphical.target, add memory or switch to text mode...
Cheers MH
This is exactly how I do it. The VM runs on the server and I use it via rdesktop, with the full graphical target.
This via virtualbox 6.1.14. Switching to text mode would completely undermine the way the VMs are used.
So the vms are running the graphical desktop? Why don't you give them more memory? Cheers MH -- Mathias Homann Mathias.Homann@openSUSE.org Jabber (XMPP): lemmy@tuxonline.tech IRC: [Lemmy] on freenode and ircnet (bouncer active) telegram: https://telegram.me/lemmy98 keybase: https://keybase.io/lemmy gpg key fingerprint: 8029 2240 F4DD 7776 E7D2 C042 6B8E 029E 13F2 C102
On 10/14/20 12:34 AM, Mathias Homann wrote:
So the vms are running the graphical desktop? Why don't you give them more memory?
Honestly, because icewm, fluxbox or KDE3 all load happily a full Linux desktop in less than 250M (total system memory). Explaining how to use Vim verses kate is a losing proposition to folks used to pushing a mouse :) -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E.
participants (11)
-
Andrei Borzenkov -
Bengt Gördén -
Carlos E. R. -
Carlos E.R. -
David C. Rankin -
Frans de Boer -
Mathias Homann -
Per Jessen -
Rodney Baker -
Simon Lees -
Wolfgang Rosenauer