[opensuse] Re: General Poor quality of Opensuse
j debert a écrit :
I have to reluctantly agree that OpenSuSE is going downhill.
Linux changes, you are not obliged to change your Distro version each year nothing to do with openSUSE jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.org http://news.opensuse.org/2009/04/13/people-of-opensuse-jean-daniel-dodin/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 28 Aug 2009 14:23:58 jdd wrote:
j debert a écrit :
I have to reluctantly agree that OpenSuSE is going downhill.
Linux changes, you are not obliged to change your Distro version each year
nothing to do with openSUSE
jdd scuse me
LOTS to do with all the railroading that goes on ect ect ect I did say this would not go away did i not . Pete
On 28 August 09, jdd wrote:
j debert a �crit :
I have to reluctantly agree that OpenSuSE is going downhill.
Linux changes, you are not obliged to change your Distro version each year
But the OP is saying that a distro change might be the best thing to do, since OpenSUSE isn't the great distro it once was.
nothing to do with openSUSE
It *IS* with openSUSE, for the most part. You don't seem to've read the OP's whole post or just don't want to admit most of his popints are correct. Can you honestly say that 11.x is as easy to get to work the way *YOU* want it to as the 9.x and older versions? It's not, if you can answer honestly. Our choices *ARE* slowly disappearing into the sunset and it's sad really. If I could get my hands on a 7.3 DVD again, I'd have it on a second computer, that's how good SuSE used to be and how easy it was to change things the way *I* wanted things to be on it. -- I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts. -Will Rogers Read The Patriot -- It's Right. It's Free. http://patriotpost.us/subscribe.php -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
It *IS* with openSUSE, for the most part. You don't seem to've read the OP's whole post or just don't want to admit most of his popints are correct. Can you honestly say that 11.x is as easy to get to work the way *YOU* want it to as the 9.x and older versions? It's not, if you can answer honestly. Our choices *ARE* slowly disappearing into the sunset and it's sad really. If I could get my hands on a 7.3 DVD again, I'd have it on a second computer, that's how good SuSE used to be and how easy it was to change things the way *I* wanted things to be on it.
Hi, there is an ongoing discussion about configurability of KDE4. It's about themes and transparency basically, but also about giving the user the possibility to change settings or not (at least for me :-) ) Maybe you want to join in the discussion, and show that there are not only 2 or 3 users, that want to be able to configure there system, in this case the look, according to their needs. https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=165795 Karl -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 29 August 2009 10:41:34, Karl Sinn wrote:
Can you honestly say that 11.x is as easy to get to work the way *YOU* want it to as the 9.x and older versions? It's not, if you can answer honestly. Our choices *ARE* slowly disappearing into the sunset and it's sad really.
It is all going the windowish way, thats really sad, and the reason why I'm still on 10.3. But is there a real alternative to openSuse? I mean a distro that is really better for common users that need a desktop environment and want to do most things by clicking - like me? As much as I read in these complaing posts most problems appear with the new KDE 4, which you are forced to use, if you want to use newer versions of KDE-apps. While I understand the devolpers point, that they want/must code for the latest version, I very much regret it as a user. But as much as I know the other distros have the same problems, they use the same KDE, don't they? So is it a general Linux distros problem, trying to reach the Windows-Users? Is the alternative a Mac? And *is* this an alternative? Daniel -- Daniel Bauer photographer Basel Barcelona professional photography: http://www.daniel-bauer.com erotic art photos: http://www.bauer-nudes.com Madagascar special: http://www.fotograf-basel.ch/madagascar/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
<snip>
As much as I read in these complaing posts most problems appear with the new KDE 4, which you are forced to use, if you want to use newer versions of KDE-apps. While I understand the devolpers point, that they want/must code for the latest version, I very much regret it as a user.
But as much as I know the other distros have the same problems, they use the same KDE, don't they? So is it a general Linux distros problem, trying to reach the Windows-Users?
Is the alternative a Mac? And *is* this an alternative?
Daniel
</snip> An alternative might be a more flexible implementation of the KDE 4.x series. I recall when Windows XP first came out there were lot of complains about the default 'tele-tubby' look; but users who were more accustomes to the classic style of prev Windows versions (Win NT/ 2000 & earlier), were given the option to switch to 'Classic' style, and this did not require administrative previliges. This is sadly missing in Windows Vista (and Office 2007 too, with it's couter-intuitive 'ribbon' look). Maybe the new KDE series should also offer an option to go back to the 'classic' view without the extra jizz/ effects on the desktop. This would also be a boon for those using Linux on older hardware platforms. Jay -- Linux User 483705 | openSUSE 11.1, Ubuntu 9.04 (i686) w/ Windows XP -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Jay Mistry wrote:
<snip>
As much as I read in these complaing posts most problems appear with the new KDE 4, which you are forced to use, if you want to use newer versions of KDE-apps. While I understand the devolpers point, that they want/must code for the latest version, I very much regret it as a user.
But as much as I know the other distros have the same problems, they use the same KDE, don't they? So is it a general Linux distros problem, trying to reach the Windows-Users?
Is the alternative a Mac? And *is* this an alternative?
Daniel
</snip>
An alternative might be a more flexible implementation of the KDE 4.x series. I recall when Windows XP first came out there were lot of complains about the default 'tele-tubby' look; but users who were more accustomes to the classic style of prev Windows versions (Win NT/ 2000 & earlier), were given the option to switch to 'Classic' style, and this did not require administrative previliges. This is sadly missing in Windows Vista (and Office 2007 too, with it's couter-intuitive 'ribbon' look).
Maybe the new KDE series should also offer an option to go back to the 'classic' view without the extra jizz/ effects on the desktop. This would also be a boon for those using Linux on older hardware platforms.
Jay
I also don't care for "Linux Vista". -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 29 August 2009 05:02:26 am Jay Mistry wrote: ...
An alternative might be a more flexible implementation of the KDE 4.x series. I recall when Windows XP first came out there were lot of complains about the default 'tele-tubby' look; but users who were more accustomes to the classic style of prev Windows versions (Win NT/ 2000 & earlier), were given the option to switch to 'Classic' style, and this did not require administrative previliges. This is sadly missing in Windows Vista (and Office 2007 too, with it's couter-intuitive 'ribbon' look).
Maybe the new KDE series should also offer an option to go back to the 'classic' view without the extra jizz/ effects on the desktop. This would also be a boon for those using Linux on older hardware platforms.
Jay
Maybe you can research Configure Desktop > Themes and find something that you would like to have. or combination of elements that hang in there. There are old window decorations from times predating my Linux use, that were included in the first of KDE's and they are still there. It is really sad that KDE is unable to provide simple switch between New and Old, like windows can. >:) There is not single New and that is can be worse for Old style, so user is forced to make the decision by himself. Sad, isn't it. (It seems sometimes that GNOME way of extreme simplification is really what many users want, whatever they say about lack of options.) -- Regards, Rajko http://news.opensuse.org/category/people-of-opensuse/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
(It seems sometimes that GNOME way of extreme simplification is really what many users want, whatever they say about lack of options.)
+1; GNOME way of simplification + (easy) customization. Jay -- Linux User 483705 | openSUSE 11.1, Ubuntu 9.04 (i686) w/ Windows XP -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 29 August 2009 09:45:40 pm Jay Mistry wrote:
(It seems sometimes that GNOME way of extreme simplification is really what many users want, whatever they say about lack of options.)
+1; GNOME way of simplification + (easy) customization.
Jay, easy is what you know how to do it, the rest is not easy :) -- Regards, Rajko http://news.opensuse.org/category/people-of-opensuse/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
+1; GNOME way of simplification + (easy) customization.
Jay, easy is what you know how to do it, the rest is not easy :)
-- Regards, Rajko
I meant 'easy' wrt those from Windows-land (ie ex-Windows users who want to switch to Linux or use Linux alongwith Windows). Jay -- Linux User 483705 | openSUSE 11.1, Ubuntu 9.04 (i686) w/ Windows XP -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Daniel Bauer wrote:
On Saturday 29 August 2009 10:41:34, Karl Sinn wrote:
Can you honestly say that 11.x is as easy to get to work the way *YOU* want it to as the 9.x and older versions? It's not, if you can answer honestly. Our choices *ARE* slowly disappearing into the sunset and it's sad really.
It is all going the windowish way, thats really sad, and the reason why I'm still on 10.3. But is there a real alternative to openSuse? I mean a distro that is really better for common users that need a desktop environment and want to do most things by clicking - like me?
As much as I read in these complaing posts most problems appear with the new KDE 4, which you are forced to use, if you want to use newer versions of KDE-apps. While I understand the devolpers point, that they want/must code for the latest version, I very much regret it as a user.
But as much as I know the other distros have the same problems, they use the same KDE, don't they? So is it a general Linux distros problem, trying to reach the Windows-Users?
Is the alternative a Mac? And *is* this an alternative?
Daniel
I, for one have decided to stay with 11.0 for as long as possible. I've tried KDE 4 and simply don't like it. I also don't care for the way things are going with SUSE. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
* James Knott
I, for one have decided to stay with 11.0 for as long as possible. I've tried KDE 4 and simply don't like it. I also don't care for the way things are going with SUSE.
And you believe that for kde based decisions that the other distros will be different? :^) it's an ever changing world. -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* James Knott
[08-29-09 18:17]: I, for one have decided to stay with 11.0 for as long as possible. I've tried KDE 4 and simply don't like it. I also don't care for the way things are going with SUSE.
And you believe that for kde based decisions that the other distros will be different? :^)
it's an ever changing world.
One thing that's often forgotten is that change does not always mean better. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sat, 2009-08-29 at 19:41 -0400, James Knott wrote:
Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* James Knott
[08-29-09 18:17]: I, for one have decided to stay with 11.0 for as long as possible. I've tried KDE 4 and simply don't like it. I also don't care for the way things are going with SUSE.
And you believe that for kde based decisions that the other distros will be different? :^)
it's an ever changing world.
One thing that's often forgotten is that change does not always mean better.
Change means: difference If you like it or not, has nother to do with being better or not. If, for one reason, you decide KDE-3.5 is "better", no one will stop you from becoming an additional maintainer for kde-3.5 for 11.3, 12.0 and so on! Wasn't that one of the pradigms of opensource: "use the Source,Luke" ;-) hw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 8:52 AM, Hans Witvliet
On Sat, 2009-08-29 at 19:41 -0400, James Knott wrote:
Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* James Knott
[08-29-09 18:17]: I, for one have decided to stay with 11.0 for as long as possible. I've tried KDE 4 and simply don't like it. I also don't care for the way things are going with SUSE.
And you believe that for kde based decisions that the other distros will be different? :^)
it's an ever changing world.
One thing that's often forgotten is that change does not always mean better.
Change means: difference If you like it or not, has nother to do with being better or not.
If, for one reason, you decide KDE-3.5 is "better", no one will stop you from becoming an additional maintainer for kde-3.5 for 11.3, 12.0 and so on! Wasn't that one of the pradigms of opensource: "use the Source,Luke" ;-)
hw
In fact, with OBS as an asset the other distros don't provide, I suspect maintaining a kde 3.5 repository for opensuse would be easier than for any other major distro. If you don't try to support kde 3.5 side-by-side with kde 4.3, it doesn't seem it should be that hard to do for 11.2. (just get the old kde 3.5 source, specfiles,etc from 10.3 or whenever and create a OBS repository.) Factory (11.2) is far enough along that a project to do that could start now. No need to wait. All you need is the volunteers to do it. (Don't count me in.) Greg -- Greg Freemyer -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Hello, On Sun, 30 Aug 2009, Greg Freemyer wrote:
If you don't try to support kde 3.5 side-by-side with kde 4.3, it doesn't seem it should be that hard to do for 11.2. (just get the old kde 3.5 source, specfiles,etc from 10.3 or whenever and create a OBS repository.)
Don't forget you need to look after security problems. And as the KDE devs fade out KDE 3.x, you'd be on your own. MAJOR suckage.
All you need is the volunteers to do it. (Don't count me in.)
Haven't used KDE since 1.1.2. Count me out. -dnh, no random sig this time -- "No, it's not clunky. It's as slick as Gnome. It's just that it's FUCKING HIDEOUS. I'm thinking of a multicoloured clown car with functionality. In between the musical horn that's too loud, the custard pie thrower and the complimentary box of Whizzo chocolates." -- Red Drag Diva, on KDE -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
So this became KDE against GNOME? This is called Human Being! -- Jonathan Seni. AMD Athlon 64 x2 Dual Core 4200+ 2.2GiH, Asus M2V (chipset VIA K8M890), Memory: 1004.4 MiB, Display: nVidia GeForce 7100 GS, 400MiH, SimplyMepis, SuSE 9.2, openSuSE 10.2 /10.3/11.0/11.1 (x86-64). -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 30 August 2009 12:05:16 pm Jonius wrote:
So this became KDE against GNOME?
Everyone has right to use what suits him the best, and people that respect other opinions are welcome. (Of course jokes on other choices doesn't mean disrespect.) -- Regards, Rajko http://news.opensuse.org/category/people-of-opensuse/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Am Sonntag 30 August 2009 16:32:39 schrieb David Haller:
Don't forget you need to look after security problems. And as the KDE devs fade out KDE 3.x, you'd be on your own. MAJOR suckage.
Haven't used KDE since 1.1.2. Count me out.
-- "No, it's not clunky. It's as slick as Gnome. It's just that it's FUCKING HIDEOUS. I'm thinking of a multicoloured clown car with functionality. In between the musical horn that's too loud, the custard pie thrower and the complimentary box of Whizzo chocolates." -- Red Drag Diva, on KDE
Am Sonntag 30 August 2009 19:05:16 schrieb Jonius:
So this became KDE against GNOME?
Is it just me with to less sleep and an underdose of coffeine or is that quite ironic? Anyhow this thread is now almost 3 weeks old, don't you wanna let it die? nnnyes? good choice :) Regards, Michael
On Sunday 30 August 2009 08:52, Hans Witvliet wrote:
On Sat, 2009-08-29 at 19:41 -0400, James Knott wrote:
Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* James Knott
[08-29-09 18:17]: I, for one have decided to stay with 11.0 for as long as possible. I've tried KDE 4 and simply don't like it. I also don't care for the way things are going with SUSE.
And you believe that for kde based decisions that the other distros will be different? :^)
it's an ever changing world.
One thing that's often forgotten is that change does not always mean better.
Change means: difference If you like it or not, has nother to do with being better or not.
If, for one reason, you decide KDE-3.5 is "better", no one will stop you from becoming an additional maintainer for kde-3.5 for 11.3, 12.0 and so on! Wasn't that one of the pradigms of opensource: "use the Source,Luke" ;-)
hw What makes you think that all of us are programmers? I've done a little bit of BASIC, and an even smaller bit of Pascal, and that was quite a while ago. It would seem to me that the old Anne Landers regime, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it," applies here. Just because what somebody in SuSE-land thinks KDE could look prettier, or sexier, or just different is no excuse to make it obsolete. There are so many things that guys bitch about, that really _are_ broke, and seem never to get addressed in spite of bug reports--why bother with bug reports at all, if the clowns screwing up a perfectly good desktop don't address them?
--doug -- Blessed are the peacemakers ... for they shall be shot at from both sides. --A.M. Greeley -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Am Montag, 31. August 2009 02:14:22 schrieb Doug McGarrett:
it's an ever changing world.
One thing that's often forgotten is that change does not always mean better.
Change means: difference If you like it or not, has nother to do with being better or not.
If, for one reason, you decide KDE-3.5 is "better", no one will stop you from becoming an additional maintainer for kde-3.5 for 11.3, 12.0 and so on! Wasn't that one of the pradigms of opensource: "use the Source,Luke" ;-)
What makes you think that all of us are programmers?
You do not need to be a programmer to get a kde3 repo going, just interest and time. If you cannot supply the latter two, why should others do so if you do not pay them? Further, elsewhere in this mailinglist users demand an official kde3 repo because it is "static" and not much work to handle. If so, where are the users that do so? Is there not even one user around of those millions that prefer kde3 over 4?
I've done a little bit of BASIC, and an even smaller bit of Pascal, and that was quite a while ago. It would seem to me that the old Anne Landers regime, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it," applies here.
Broken for who? KDE3 was broken by design and hence not fixable in many areas, especially the desktop and panel. Those that spend their free time on the software you use for free decided they did not want to work on such bad code anymore but have a proper basis for the future. But even if we leave the programming bit aside. Just because KDE3 was not broken for you does not mean it was not broken for others. So while you can continue to use your not broken KDE3 with a little bit of effort (which you do not seem willing to invest), you want to force others to do the same and not create KDE4 although those are the ones that supply you with free software and also gave you your beloved KDE3. How selfish of them to make their own decisions about their own life and timespending!
Just because what somebody in SuSE-land thinks KDE could look prettier, or sexier, or just different is no excuse to make it obsolete. There are so many things that guys bitch about, that really _are_ broke, and seem never to get addressed in spite of bug reports--why bother with bug reports at all, if the clowns screwing up a perfectly good desktop don't address them?
"Perfectly good" is more than debatable. People just got used to its bugs and issues. Open source is about voluntarily spending your free time on software others use for free. So either you do so to get the software you want or you have no right to claim anything. Of course you can also replace spending your free time with spending money on people that do what you want, but as long as you do not supply any resources, those that do decide. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Ok kids, this has been going on for some time and a slow economy gives me just enough time to throw in my 2 cents . . . (so if you're busy - stop reading now - nothing new here - just my rant) First, we must remember this is OPEN Suse, not Novel enterprise. The purpose of this OS is for implementing new features and functions, working out bugs, all in a "live environment." We all use this OS and the millions of lines of code, written in hundreds of thousands of man hours, - for free. My first exposure to Linux was "RedHat 7.1". Some business associates and I were trying to develop a web application. The only programmer in group explained that developing in a "LAMP" format would save us thousands on the front end. (easy decision) I installed RedHat in a dual boot configuration on my desktop. After a few weeks I realized I was doing most of my "Office" work Linux because it was a pain to switch back and forth - and I noticed that it almost never crashed. I eventually use RedHat as my main desktop OS, then switched to Suse 9.0. Back then it didn't recognize my usb ports at all. The available browsers all had bugs so you had to have an array of Opera, Mozilla, Konq, to view many websites - even so many just said - sorry you need MSIE to view this site. Video ? forget it. Wireless ? not a chance. Laptop support ? minimal. Sync a cell phone? Don't even think about it. Now . . . I can't remember the last time a web site didn't render correctly. USB support is great. Video? - its a snap. Laptop and wireless? way easier than Windows. Cell phones still take some work. Yeah, KDE 4.3 is buggy. But you know what ? I love it. I love it because I'm shallow and it looks so freakin good ! After years of watching people show off their MAC and Windows "eye candy" - I love watching their response to my plazmoids, spinning desktop, wobbly windows, and various effects - to which they have NO equal - in fact not even close. (Actually I find the "Cube" and translucent windows very helpful in "syncing" my brain with the open apps and windows on various desktops - not just eye candy) Yes, it frustrates me when it locks up, or the plazmoids go wacky. But then I remember - this is OPEN Suse, it's free, and the developers will continue to work on it. In summary, sure we all need to identify the bugs, complain about the ones that have been neglected, and continue to work towards improving the OpenSuse OS; but to assert that it's current state is inferior to the "good ole days" is to purposely ignore the vast expansion in both depth and breadth of features and functions that have taken place in only a few short years. <rant off> Regis On Thu, 2009-09-03 at 09:12 +0200, Sven Burmeister wrote:
Am Montag, 31. August 2009 02:14:22 schrieb Doug McGarrett:
it's an ever changing world.
One thing that's often forgotten is that change does not always mean better.
Change means: difference If you like it or not, has nother to do with being better or not.
If, for one reason, you decide KDE-3.5 is "better", no one will stop you from becoming an additional maintainer for kde-3.5 for 11.3, 12.0 and so on! Wasn't that one of the pradigms of opensource: "use the Source,Luke" ;-)
What makes you think that all of us are programmers?
You do not need to be a programmer to get a kde3 repo going, just interest and time. If you cannot supply the latter two, why should others do so if you do not pay them? Further, elsewhere in this mailinglist users demand an official kde3 repo because it is "static" and not much work to handle. If so, where are the users that do so? Is there not even one user around of those millions that prefer kde3 over 4?
I've done a little bit of BASIC, and an even smaller bit of Pascal, and that was quite a while ago. It would seem to me that the old Anne Landers regime, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it," applies here.
Broken for who? KDE3 was broken by design and hence not fixable in many areas, especially the desktop and panel. Those that spend their free time on the software you use for free decided they did not want to work on such bad code anymore but have a proper basis for the future.
But even if we leave the programming bit aside. Just because KDE3 was not broken for you does not mean it was not broken for others. So while you can continue to use your not broken KDE3 with a little bit of effort (which you do not seem willing to invest), you want to force others to do the same and not create KDE4 although those are the ones that supply you with free software and also gave you your beloved KDE3. How selfish of them to make their own decisions about their own life and timespending!
Just because what somebody in SuSE-land thinks KDE could look prettier, or sexier, or just different is no excuse to make it obsolete. There are so many things that guys bitch about, that really _are_ broke, and seem never to get addressed in spite of bug reports--why bother with bug reports at all, if the clowns screwing up a perfectly good desktop don't address them?
"Perfectly good" is more than debatable. People just got used to its bugs and issues. Open source is about voluntarily spending your free time on software others use for free. So either you do so to get the software you want or you have no right to claim anything. Of course you can also replace spending your free time with spending money on people that do what you want, but as long as you do not supply any resources, those that do decide.
Sven
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Thursday 03 September 2009 03:12:10 Sven Burmeister wrote:
Am Montag, 31. August 2009 02:14:22 schrieb Doug McGarrett:
it's an ever changing world.
One thing that's often forgotten is that change does not always mean better.
Change means: difference If you like it or not, has nother to do with being better or not.
If, for one reason, you decide KDE-3.5 is "better", no one will stop you from becoming an additional maintainer for kde-3.5 for 11.3, 12.0 and so on! Wasn't that one of the pradigms of opensource: "use the Source,Luke" ;-)
What makes you think that all of us are programmers?
First of all Sven, I would like to know who appointed you as the authority on KDE3 vs KDE4? You seem to be the bully-boy for KDE4. Do you work for Novell? or anyone else that has an interest in promoting KDE4?.or just some opinionated guy with a talent for espousing words?
You do not need to be a programmer to get a kde3 repo going, just interest and time. If you cannot supply the latter two, why should others do so if you do not pay them? Further, elsewhere in this mailinglist users demand an official kde3 repo because it is "static" and not much work to handle. If so, where are the users that do so? Is there not even one user around of those millions that prefer kde3 over 4?
I would guess that you are 100% correct on this point,
I've done a little bit of BASIC, and an even smaller bit of Pascal, and that was quite a while ago. It would seem to me that the old Anne Landers regime, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it," applies here.
Broken for who? KDE3 was broken by design and hence not fixable in many areas, especially the desktop and panel.
Wrong....not brpken by design but as it developed it became unmanageable. I fully concur that it probably needed a complete re-write. But, why, during a re-write add all the extra "bling" when it was'nt necessary, to get back to basics, with an eye towards adding all of that later, when appropriate.
Those that spend their free time on the software you use for free decided they did not want to work on such bad code anymore but have a proper basis for the future.
Absolutely correct as explained previously with caveats.
But even if we leave the programming bit aside. Just because KDE3 was not broken for you does not mean it was not broken for others.
That is a pretty wild statement. It must just come from your own mind. I would really like to know who thinks KDE3 was broken. I will start a new thread,"KDE3 broken? Yes or No" Let's vote!
So while you can continue to use your not broken KDE3 with a little bit of effort (which you do not seem willing to invest), you want to force others to do the same and not create KDE4 although those are the ones that supply you with free software and also gave you your beloved KDE3. How selfish of them to make their own decisions about their own life and timespending!
Oh come on. for God's sake. Nobody has ever said that KDE4 should not be created and everyone here appreciates and applauds the efforts of the developers who created KDE3 and afterwards, createdKDE4.That is not at issue. That is your own biased perception.
Just because what somebody in SuSE-land thinks KDE could look prettier, or sexier, or just different is no excuse to make it obsolete. There are so many things that guys bitch about, that really _are_ broke, and seem never to get addressed in spite of bug reports--why bother with bug reports at all, if the clowns screwing up a perfectly good desktop don't address them?
"Perfectly good" is more than debatable. People just got used to its bugs and issues.
No it's not, if you are referring to KDE3. Sure it had some minor bugs but not at it's maturist level. KDE4 has many many bugs that are not yet resolved. Several times as many as KDE3 ever had. All of which could have been avoided witha simple re-write without the "bling" and then go forward from there. Just like what was done/happened in KDE3.
Open source is about voluntarily spending your free time on software others use for free. So either you do so to get the software you want or you have no right to claim anything.
You are absolutely correct there. No arguement.But that doesn't mean it could'nt have been done differently, or more end-user oriented.
Of course you can also replace spending your free time with spending money on people that do what you want, but as long as you do not supply any resources, those that do decide.
Give us a break, OK? You are one righteous arrogant.................. Bob S -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Am Freitag, 4. September 2009 07:52:56 schrieb Bob S:
What makes you think that all of us are programmers?
First of all Sven, I would like to know who appointed you as the authority on KDE3 vs KDE4? You seem to be the bully-boy for KDE4. Do you work for Novell? or anyone else that has an interest in promoting KDE4?.or just some opinionated guy with a talent for espousing words?
It's all in your head!
You do not need to be a programmer to get a kde3 repo going, just interest and time. If you cannot supply the latter two, why should others do so if you do not pay them? Further, elsewhere in this mailinglist users demand an official kde3 repo because it is "static" and not much work to handle. If so, where are the users that do so? Is there not even one user around of those millions that prefer kde3 over 4?
I would guess that you are 100% correct on this point,
I've done a little bit of BASIC, and an even smaller bit of Pascal, and that was quite a while ago. It would seem to me that the old Anne Landers regime, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it," applies here.
Broken for who? KDE3 was broken by design and hence not fixable in many areas, especially the desktop and panel.
Wrong....not brpken by design but as it developed it became unmanageable.
so you call software that is unmanageable "not broken"? The coed design did not fit the purpose and hence things broke while fixing others. That is broken.
I fully concur that it probably needed a complete re-write. But, why, during a re-write add all the extra "bling" when it was'nt necessary, to get back to basics, with an eye towards adding all of that later, when appropriate.
Because those that put resources into KDE decide what they do with their free time. Those that don't and get it for free can take it or leave it but certainly not whine about it or demand anything they are not willing to do themselves. If you want feature x badly, do it yourself or pay for it. If you are not willing to spend anything on it, you have to wait until somebody else is.
But even if we leave the programming bit aside. Just because KDE3 was not broken for you does not mean it was not broken for others.
That is a pretty wild statement. It must just come from your own mind. I would really like to know who thinks KDE3 was broken. I will start a new thread,"KDE3 broken? Yes or No" Let's vote!
I saw that, quite funny and childish plus rather OT for a mailinglist that is now going to be spammed with "yes" and "no" emails.
So while you can continue to use your not broken KDE3 with a little bit of effort (which you do not seem willing to invest), you want to force others to do the same and not create KDE4 although those are the ones that supply you with free software and also gave you your beloved KDE3. How selfish of them to make their own decisions about their own life and timespending!
Oh come on. for God's sake. Nobody has ever said that KDE4 should not be created and everyone here appreciates and applauds the efforts of the developers who created KDE3 and afterwards, createdKDE4.That is not at issue. That is your own biased perception.
I rest my case, if you do not remember all the talk about forking KDE3 etc. then it really does not make any sense to discuss this.
Just because what somebody in SuSE-land thinks KDE could look prettier, or sexier, or just different is no excuse to make it obsolete. There are so many things that guys bitch about, that really _are_ broke, and seem never to get addressed in spite of bug reports--why bother with bug reports at all, if the clowns screwing up a perfectly good desktop don't address them?
"Perfectly good" is more than debatable. People just got used to its bugs and issues.
No it's not, if you are referring to KDE3. Sure it had some minor bugs but not at it's maturist level. KDE4 has many many bugs that are not yet resolved. Several times as many as KDE3 ever had. All of which could have been avoided witha simple re-write without the "bling" and then go forward from there. Just like what was done/happened in KDE3.
If the re-write is that simply, why were there not people that did so? Nobody forced anyone to develop anything for KDE4. And nobody hindered anyone to not contribute to KDE4 by "only" re-writing KDE3 bits.
Open source is about voluntarily spending your free time on software others use for free. So either you do so to get the software you want or you have no right to claim anything.
You are absolutely correct there. No arguement.But that doesn't mean it could'nt have been done differently, or more end-user oriented.
Then why do people whine about KDE4? You can use it if you like, leave it if you don't. You can of course criticise, but only in a constructive way, i.e. at least bits you use and want to put some effort in. You cannot demand that people owe you an explanation for feature x only because you do not get it. You might ask why feature y was not implemented yet, yet the answer would most probably be: because nobody cared to put some resources into it, including the one asking.
Of course you can also replace spending your free time with spending money on people that do what you want, but as long as you do not supply any resources, those that do decide.
Give us a break, OK? You are one righteous arrogant..................
Yes, I'm as arrogant as to state that those that spend their free time and money on KDE should decide what they would like to work on. Spot on! Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Sven Burmeister wrote:
Am Freitag, 4. September 2009 07:52:56 schrieb Bob S:
What makes you think that all of us are programmers?
First of all Sven, I would like to know who appointed you as the authority on KDE3 vs KDE4? You seem to be the bully-boy for KDE4. Do you work for Novell? or anyone else that has an interest in promoting KDE4?.or just some opinionated guy with a talent for espousing words?
It's all in your head!
Won't answer a direct question will you? It's the second time you have avoided the question: I asked a similar question some months ago. [rest pruned - to keep Patrick restrained] BC -- "There are none so blind as those who will not see." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 04 of September 2009, Basil Chupin wrote:
Sven Burmeister wrote:
Am Freitag, 4. September 2009 07:52:56 schrieb Bob S:
What makes you think that all of us are programmers?
First of all Sven, I would like to know who appointed you as the authority on KDE3 vs KDE4? You seem to be the bully-boy for KDE4. Do you work for Novell? or anyone else that has an interest in promoting KDE4?.or just some opinionated guy with a talent for espousing words?
It's all in your head!
Won't answer a direct question will you?
I will answer the question for Sven (since, among other things, if he said that himself, he'd be again accused of being "arrogant"). Sven can be an authority on this issue because he is an active contributor in the openSUSE KDE team. Which means that, unlike most whiners here, he actually does some work instead of just talking about it, and as such he knows both sides of it. And this whole KDE3 discussion is still pointless, just like it was e.g. half a year ago. The current openSUSE KDE team does not have resources to reasonably maintain two desktops, so we will maintain just one and there the more logical choice is clear. Nobody else is interested in maintaining KDE3, as can be very obviously seen. Moreover, KDE3 in openSUSE is not "no effort", since it a clear waste of effort. Just have a look at how much time we have to waste here instead of doing something useful. And I will not waste more time on an issue where the only possible outcome is wasted time, and I would suggest the same to Sven. -- Lubos Lunak KDE developer -------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. e-mail: l.lunak@suse.cz , l.lunak@kde.org Lihovarska 1060/12 tel: +420 284 028 972 190 00 Prague 9 fax: +420 284 028 951 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 04 Sep 2009 08:29:27 Lubos Lunak wrote:
On Friday 04 of September 2009, Basil Chupin wrote:
Sven Burmeister wrote:
Am Freitag, 4. September 2009 07:52:56 schrieb Bob S:
What makes you think that all of us are programmers?
First of all Sven, I would like to know who appointed you as the authority on KDE3 vs KDE4? You seem to be the bully-boy for KDE4. Do you work for Novell? or anyone else that has an interest in promoting KDE4?.or just some opinionated guy with a talent for espousing words?
It's all in your head!
Won't answer a direct question will you?
I will answer the question for Sven (since, among other things, if he said that himself, he'd be again accused of being "arrogant").
Sven can be an authority on this issue because he is an active contributor in the openSUSE KDE team. Which means that, unlike most whiners here, he actually does some work instead of just talking about it, and as such he knows both sides of it.
And this whole KDE3 discussion is still pointless, just like it was e.g. half a year ago. The current openSUSE KDE team does not have resources to reasonably maintain two desktops, so we will maintain just one and there the more logical choice is clear. Nobody else is interested in maintaining KDE3, as can be very obviously seen. Moreover, KDE3 in openSUSE is not "no effort", since it a clear waste of effort. Just have a look at how much time we have to waste here instead of doing something useful. And I will not waste more time on an issue where the only possible outcome is wasted time, and I would suggest the same to Sven.
Well if you think KDE3.5.x is too much pain the make KDE4.3.x work correctly not the excuse it is right now . I have the latest stuff on the Laptop 11.2MS6 plus about 860Mb of updates last night and STILL the whole desktop thing is a PITA i tried the activities thihg again last night to the effect my original desktop just got screwed and wound up with god knows how many excuses that in effecf were all the same change on it happens on them ALL .. Tell you what put activities in the waste bin and get back to the RIGHT way the way it was in KDE3 of one virtual desktop could have a wallpaper the next one could have a totally diferent wall paper and so on put activities where they cause the designer the maximum pain (as they do for most people that try them) because at the moment that is about their only value And as for the first 2 lines of your reply yes that is the correct answer he IS just that and has been told so many times not just by me either Pete .
This thread needs to end. take it off line --- On Fri, 9/4/09, Peter Nikolic
On Friday 04 of September 2009, Basil Chupin wrote:
Sven Burmeister wrote:
Am Freitag, 4. September 2009 07:52:56 schrieb Bob S:
> What makes you think that all of us are programmers?
First of all Sven, I would like to know who appointed you as the authority on KDE3 vs KDE4? You seem to be the bully-boy for KDE4. Do you work for Novell? or anyone else that has an interest in promoting KDE4?.or just some opinionated guy with a talent for espousing words?
It's all in your head!
Won't answer a direct question will you?
I will answer the question for Sven (since, among other things, if he said that himself, he'd be again accused of being "arrogant").
Sven can be an authority on this issue because he is an active contributor in the openSUSE KDE team. Which means that, unlike most whiners here, he actually does some work instead of just talking about it, and as such he knows both sides of it.
And this whole KDE3 discussion is still
half a year ago. The current openSUSE KDE team does not have resources to reasonably maintain two desktops, so we will maintain just one and there the more logical choice is clear. Nobody else is interested in maintaining KDE3, as can be very obviously seen. Moreover, KDE3 in openSUSE is not "no effort", since it a clear waste of effort. Just have a look at how much time we have to waste here instead of doing something useful. And I will not waste more time on an issue where the only
From: Peter Nikolic
Subject: Re: [opensuse] Re: General Poor quality of Opensuse To: opensuse@opensuse.org Date: Friday, September 4, 2009, 12:50 AM On Friday 04 Sep 2009 08:29:27 Lubos Lunak wrote: pointless, just like it was e.g. possible outcome is wasted time, and I would suggest the same to Sven.
Well if you think KDE3.5.x is too much pain the make KDE4.3.x work correctly not the excuse it is right now .
I have the latest stuff on the Laptop 11.2MS6 plus about 860Mb of updates last night and STILL the whole desktop thing is a PITA i tried the activities thihg again last night to the effect my original desktop just got screwed and wound up with god knows how many excuses that in effecf were all the same change on it happens on them ALL ..
Tell you what put activities in the waste bin and get back to the RIGHT way the way it was in KDE3 of one virtual desktop could have a wallpaper the next one could have a totally diferent wall paper and so on put activities where they cause the designer the maximum pain (as they do for most people that try them) because at the moment that is about their only value
And as for the first 2 lines of your reply yes that is the correct answer he IS just that
and has been told so many times not just by me either
Pete .
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Basil Chupin pecked at the keyboard and wrote:
Sven Burmeister wrote:
Am Freitag, 4. September 2009 07:52:56 schrieb Bob S:
What makes you think that all of us are programmers?
First of all Sven, I would like to know who appointed you as the authority on KDE3 vs KDE4? You seem to be the bully-boy for KDE4. Do you work for Novell? or anyone else that has an interest in promoting KDE4?.or just some opinionated guy with a talent for espousing words?
It's all in your head!
Won't answer a direct question will you?
It's the second time you have avoided the question: I asked a similar question some months ago.
[rest pruned - to keep Patrick restrained]
BC
Exactly, if Swen spent the time explaining the reason behind something instead of just getting defensive there wouldn't be a long discussion needed. -- Ken Schneider SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Op 04-09-09 14:01, Ken Schneider - openSUSE schreef:
Basil Chupin pecked at the keyboard and wrote:
Sven Burmeister wrote:
Am Freitag, 4. September 2009 07:52:56 schrieb Bob S:
What makes you think that all of us are programmers?
First of all Sven, I would like to know who appointed you as the authority on KDE3 vs KDE4? You seem to be the bully-boy for KDE4. Do you work for Novell? or anyone else that has an interest in promoting KDE4?.or just some opinionated guy with a talent for espousing words?
It's all in your head!
Won't answer a direct question will you?
It's the second time you have avoided the question: I asked a similar question some months ago.
[rest pruned - to keep Patrick restrained]
BC
Exactly, if Swen spent the time explaining the reason behind something instead of just getting defensive there wouldn't be a long discussion needed.
My mother died. She was nearly 92. At the end several main functions failed. I loved my mother. Still she was at her end. For her is no replacement, for KDE3 there is..... -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball (M9.) (Now or never...) OS: Linux 2.6.31-rc7-4-desktop x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@AMD64x2-SFN1 Systeem: openSUSE 11.2 Milestone 6 (x86_64) KDE: 4.3.00 (KDE 4.3.0) "release 3" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
* Basil Chupin
Won't answer a direct question will you?
Odd. I see very good answers. It's the basis of the question that is indirect.
It's the second time you have avoided the question: I asked a similar question some months ago.
[rest pruned - to keep Patrick restrained]
Then it will elate you to find that I agree with his explanation, entirely. :) -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Wasn't that one of the pradigms of opensource: "use the Source,Luke" What makes you think that all of us are programmers? First of all Sven, I would like to know who appointed you as the authority on KDE3 vs KDE4? You seem to be the bully-boy for KDE4. Do you work for Novell? or anyone else that has an interest in promoting KDE4?.or just some opinionated guy with a talent for espousing words?
Oh please. Can the very lame conspiracy crap of accusing people of working for so-and-so just stop? Because someone disagrees with thy anointed position they must be corrupt and getting paid! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
participants (24)
-
Adam Tauno Williams
-
Basil Chupin
-
Bob S
-
Daniel Bauer
-
David Haller
-
Doug McGarrett
-
Greg Freemyer
-
Hans Witvliet
-
James Knott
-
Jay Mistry
-
JB2
-
jdd
-
Jonius
-
Karl Sinn
-
Ken Schneider - openSUSE
-
Lubos Lunak
-
martin glazer
-
Michael Skiba
-
Oddball
-
Patrick Shanahan
-
Peter Nikolic
-
Rajko M.
-
Regis Matejcik
-
Sven Burmeister