Re: [opensuse] Re: Why is systemd[1] is mounting noauto partitions?
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On Wednesday 11 Feb 2015 10:43:32 Joe Zappa wrote:
ianseeks wrote:
On Tuesday 03 Jun 2014 03:08:45 Dirk Gently wrote:
Damian Ivanov wrote:
You have no idea. Not the slightest clue. You can't keep it technical. Fuck you Dirk Gently.
1. systemd doesn't produce ASCII (or for that matter, UTF) log files, it produces binary blob log files.
Which means you can't just browse through a log file using grep, awk, and/or more (or less).
journalctl | grep xxx
And why do you need to run journalctl instead of just grepping the file directly???
how many files do you have to grep to trace the issue you are looking for? just configure it to use rsyslog if you want to increase your workload and grep multiple files. using journalctl will make your life easier and reduce the repetitive creating of using scripts to do your job
Because the log file is a binary blob which MUST BE INTERPRETED BY JOURNALCTL.
why do you use "grep" instead of editing the files manually? It makes life easier which is one of the uses of computers. How do you interpret MariaDB database files, do you grep them?
or
journalctl > /tmp/xxxx then do your stuff
That doesn't change the fact that systemd violates on the major principles of what has made Unix and now Linux so successful -- NO BINARY BLOBS FOR HUMAN READABLE INFORMATION. if you go back in time far enough i'd expect you'll find using a GUI was violating the Unix principle of only using a cli. I heard many an argument about the GUI/cli offerings. Compromises are made all the time, have a read of this as an example http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2012/05/25/unix-doesnt-follow-the-unix-philoso...
an example of the benefit of journalctl. whats easier? create a script(s) that produces a single sorted output from all the log files for a specified date/time range of 07:37 to 08:29 and note the time it took to write it and debug it. or a single line journalctl --since 07:37 --until 08:29
2. systemd eliminates separate log files... so if you're looking for ntp messages, we no longer have ntp log files... now we have to wade through the whole combined (binary only) logfile
journalctl | grep ntp
Once again, show us how to do it WITHOUTH journalctl.
configure systemd to use rsyslog.
1. What if your journalctl executable gets compromised?
what if any executable on your system gets compromised?
2. Why do we need this extra overhead every time we want to look at a journal?
What overhead? it'll save you loads of time if you have to a lot of searching of log files, its only 10 letters to type and no changing of directories. If 10 letters are too much to type, create an alias.
The ntp log files exist on my opensuse 13.2
3. The old time tested method of keeping log files small and maneagble (daily rotation) is now also broken, YATFUBSD (Yet Another Thing Fucked Up By SystemD)
http://www.h-online.com/news/item/Latest-release-of-systemd-includes-time-> > based-log-rotation-1735258.html So, in other words, after much harping by the community, Poettering, et al have finally pulled their heads out of their asses on this ONE point....
that was a news article from 2012 which is quite early in systemd's development life cycle. Maybe you don't know but when developing software, it takes time and not all functions are ready on day one.
Obviously, you're either ignorant or making up more lies. Which is it?
you are obviously out of date on info about systemd
Do you want to keep on playing this idiotic game where you make false assertions, and I point out how the truth differs from what you say it is?
you wouldn't know the truth if it smacked you in the mouth
Now go away and do some reading about systemd and find out what it really does I've read a lot about it.
2014-06-03 2:26 GMT+02:00 Dirk Gently <dirk.gently00@gmail.com>:
Damian Ivanov wrote:
You can run a different logging daemon like syslog-ng no problem. Also journalctl which seems to be your problem can filer per application, time etc. everything and write to file. no problem.
So, we're supposed to run TO loggin deamons now....
And this is an improvement how, exactly, Damian?
Do you understand how absolutely idiotic that "solution" is?
It's not a solution, it's a pollution.
2014-06-02 9:19 GMT+02:00 Dirk Gently <dirk.gently00@gmail.com>: > Damian Ivanov wrote: >> Maybe on Kay Sievert, yes he is problematic (as personality in open >> source). systemd doesn't not do everything. Under the systemd >> umbrella >> are few additional daemons reimplenting a lot of services. If you >> build systemd with all configuration options enabled you will build >> 69 >> individual binaries. These binaries all serve different tasks, and >> are >> neatly separated for a number of reasons. At compile time you have a >> number of configure switches to select what you want to build, and >> what not. >> >> That developers code stuff that requires systemd is not systemd's >> fault. > > You don't konw that the fuck you're talking about. > > If the syslog deamon has been removed, then I can't sent logging > messages > to > a standard file handle which can (in the startup script) be sent to > the > syslog process. > > Instead, deamons NOW have to call a special logging function in > systemd > to > have anything logged. > > Thus, now the applications have to be aware of systemd... which then > makes > systemd NON-REPLACEABLE. > > > haven't the past 30 years of Microsoft's machinations taught you > anything > about the inherent evilness of "embrace and extend" programming. > > Systemd is being designed to be a one-way trapdoor, so that, if/when > people > realize that it's not all it's been sold as being (in fact, not even > close) > then it will be impossible to replace it without ALSO rewriting tons > of > other code in other projects. > > That reason alone makes it stupid for any distribution to adopt it. > >> You don't like GNOME? Use something else. You have a problem >> >> with systemd as init or with some of all the services under >> systemd's >> umbrella (logind etc.)? You could develop alternatives for these. >> You >> don't want to? You want other people to develop for YOUR personal >> preferences? This ain't gonna happen. And as upstart is dead from >> now >> on and openrc doesn't do the job, let's embrace systemd with all of >> our heart. > > -- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org > To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
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On 02/12/2015 03:55 AM, ianseeks wrote:
why do you use "grep" instead of editing the files manually? It makes life easier which is one of the uses of computers. How do you interpret MariaDB database files, do you grep them?
Perhaps SUN and its acquisition, never mind IBM coming up with AIX (and then Linux) and HP putting HP/UX on its Big Iron was an indicator. UNIX aka Linux as its present incarnation is for Serious Business not for the home computer. Many of the complaints against, for example, systemd, are to do with how it a tool for managing a large business environment or possibly a shared resource such as a service provider or "agency" business model. All geared towards resource management. So the mention of system logging and database in the same message make me recall my experiences there. I worked a few years ago at a first tier bank here in Canada. The first tier ones are BIG even by US standards. Because out government won't let them merge, they have grown by acquisition, but even so, they are BIG. My work brought me in contact with the guy in operations who managed system logging. Every machine on the corporate WAN sent syslog to the central server. This included every terminal server, every 'mainframe', every brokerage, every branch. He mentioned there were over 20,000 potential inputs, though not all were active at the same time. Some were though consolidators; for example Windows PCs logged in to servers and the servers sent the syslog. All this went into a huge database. All queries were on the database. The issue wasn't to 'grep' but to 'relate'. The database allowed the easy tracing of paths of activity, looking for who did what when and how. Yes, there were other automated triggers for such things as disk decay, QoS issues as well as suspicious activity. Most of these traces were beyond what might come from a human being simply grepping though a text file. Many were beyond what even 'swatch' could do. This was stuff we now call "Big Data". There were, I was told, many hundred of canned and custom searches and triggers that were all active in parallel. Some watched for activity spread over many days. To do this with a relational database was, well, not exactly trivial, but not difficult either. Being an indexed database the queries came back in reasonable time, something that grepping though a comparative text file could not. A lot of the criticism of systemd is really a 'that was then', googling for out of date articles and issues that have long since been addressed or made irrelevant. Nothing new here, we've seen it so many times before. KDE4 was a good example. The very nature of OpenSource is that in order to get the feedback developers need they have to release an immature product. Its not like a commercial firms such a Microsoft or IBM where there is a budget for and separate group for testing. So the immature release is taken to be a final one. Not so. As Ian and others are pointing out, systemd and its tool set are a moving target, responding to issues such as this. As Ian says:
Maybe you don't know but when developing software, it takes time and not all functions are ready on day one.
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write it and d journalctl --sinceite 07:37 --until 08:29
scripts are easier and safer.
2. systemd eliminates separate log files... so if you're looking for ntp messages,
that is a choice, a good one as well, not a proble. The problem is now having everything locked into systemds nasty binary blogs.
1. What if your journalctl executable gets compromised?
that happens a LOT btw
>>> That developers code stuff that requires systemd is not systemd's >>> fault. >> >> You don't konw that the fuck you're talking about. >> >> If the syslog deamon has been removed, then I can't sent logging >> messages >> to >> a standard file handle which can (in the startup script) be sent >> to >> the >> syslog process.
don't confuse systemd nutters with facts.
>> haven't the past 30 years of Microsoft's machinations taught you >> anything >> about the inherent evilness of "embrace and extend" programming. >>
no it hasn't. This is the core problem. MS has one the propaganda war and you have a generation of children who can't seperate an operating view from their brainwashing at the hands of MS OSs.
>>> You don't like GNOME? Use something else. You have a problem >>>
what choice is there? Gnome is so slow and fat now it is unusable even with new hardware. Both standard gnome and kde is now both unusable. It can take 5 minutes for it to get to a usuable screen now... unusable, espeically on laptops.
>>> with systemd as init or with some of all the services under >>> systemd's >>> umbrella (logind etc.)? You could develop alternatives for these. >>> You >>> don't want to?
Umbrelas are useless and only good at poking you in the eye when walking up crowded streets in the rain.
You want other people to develop for YOUR personal
>>> preferences? This ain't gonna happen. And as upstart is dead from >>> now >>> on and openrc
actually openrc is excellent!! It has reduced the overhead on my system and functions perfectly without any of the problems associated with that locked in garbage of systemd. And as a bonus, you don't have to deal with Potterings Soviet Block designed crap...hurray!!
doesn't do the job, let's embrace systemd with all
>>> of >>> our heart. >> >> -- >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org >> To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
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participants (3)
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Anton Aylward
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ianseeks
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Ruben Safir