[opensuse] 'Goes along with those mad at Novell/SUSE and leave.
Linux on the desktop has been a year or two away for over a decade now, and there are reasons it's not there yet. To attract nontechnical end-users, a Linux desktop must work out of the box, ideally preinstalled by the hardware vendor. Right now, Linux is usually an aftermarket upgrade on desktop and laptop systems. Default installations of Linux usually have poor multimedia support, are missing numerous codecs like QuickTime and WMV, and often lack even basic 3D acceleration. Linux can't even play DVDs without introducing the risk of lawsuits, and multimedia support files are usually hosted on non-US sites for legal reasons. Third party software support (from Quicken to World of Warcraft) is almost nonexistent. You can't win the desktop if you don't even try. Right now, few in the Linux world are seriously trying. And time is running out. http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/world-domination/world-domination-201.html... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Fred A. Miller wrote:
Linux on the desktop has been a year or two away for over a decade now, and there are reasons it's not there yet. To attract nontechnical end-users, a Linux desktop must work out of the box, ideally preinstalled by the hardware vendor. Right now, Linux is usually an aftermarket upgrade on desktop and laptop systems. Default installations of Linux usually have poor multimedia support, are missing numerous codecs like QuickTime and WMV, and often lack even basic 3D acceleration. Linux can't even play DVDs without introducing the risk of lawsuits, and multimedia support files are usually hosted on non-US sites for legal reasons. Third party software support (from Quicken to World of Warcraft) is almost nonexistent.
You can't win the desktop if you don't even try. Right now, few in the Linux world are seriously trying. And time is running out.
I've heard this argument too many times to count. With all due respect to the author, the argument is based on the assumption that we want to be mainstreram, that we want everybody and their grandmother to be running Linux. Personally, I don't. Why? Because inevitably software manufacturers will dumb down Linux to the point where the protections cease to be relevant. People will be running their computers 100 percent of the time in root mode because they can't be bothered with the hassle of using 'su' when and only when they really need to upgrade something. Part of the reason why I believe Linux has been insulated from so many worms and virii and other things is the crucial part between the keyboard and the chair; the user that understands not to open every attachment they get, to be wary of phishing scams and whatnot. Is that being elitist? Maybe. But maybe I want to keep what is unique in the Linux world unique. In as far as multimedia support, yeah, SuSE doesn't have that out of the box. You know how long it takes for me to set it up? 2 minutes. And for that little inconvenience Novell and others don't have to ratchet up the price of every Linux shipment out there. Those that want to make linux mainstream have their points, and I respect them. But there are some of us who may not think it is so bad where we are right now. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
John Meyer wrote:
Fred A. Miller wrote:
You can't win the desktop if you don't even try. Right now, few in the Linux world are seriously trying. And time is running out.
I've heard this argument too many times to count. With all due respect to the author, the argument is based on the assumption that we want to be mainstreram, that we want everybody and their grandmother to be running Linux. Personally, I don't.
Unfortunately, it's not about being mainstream anymore - at this point, it's about viability, period. If linux can't achieve enough of a critical mass on the desktop to matter, microsoft will be able to leverage control of all the onramps, so to speak, to the "information highway", and then it's game over. Unless of course, you're content to use linux on a hobbyist basis, without meaningful access to the most internet content, constituting nothing more than small islands of hopeless, irrelevant rebellion in a microsoft world. I agree with esr's contention that somebody needs to get the ball rolling, and to waste no time. Joe -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 24 December 2006 19:03, J Sloan wrote:
...
Unfortunately, it's not about being mainstream anymore - at this point, it's about viability, period.
If linux can't achieve enough of a critical mass on the desktop to matter, microsoft will be able to leverage control of all the onramps, so to speak, to the "information highway", and then it's game over. Unless of course, you're content to use linux on a hobbyist basis, without meaningful access to the most internet content, constituting nothing more than small islands of hopeless, irrelevant rebellion in a microsoft world.
Can you define what you mean when you say: - "enough of a critical mass" - "to matter" - "leverage control" - "onramps to the information highway" - "game over" - "meaningful access" - "most internet content" - "islands" - "hopeless, irrelevant rebellion" - "microsoft world" Suffice it to say I consider that paragraph to be nearly devoid of meaning. However, you may very well have a future in one of these domains: - Marketing communications - Public Relations - Generic vacuous persuasion - Elective representative in the U.S.A. Anyway, I don't believe that desktop acceptance has anything to do with Linux's long-term viability. One simple example among many, the fact that Amazon.com runs almost all of it's on-line systems using Linux, is enough to show that Linux has a secure future. Software development is far more efficient under Linux or other Unix-oriented systems. The only time one would use Windows is when writing Windows-specific software. The personal computing world will not end if Linux does not gain some minimal market- or "mind-" share. Look at the Macintosh. It has a small minority of the installed base of personal / desktop and server systems. But it remains eminently viable. The sky is not falling on Linux.
...
Joe
Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Randall R Schulz wrote:
Can you define what you mean when you say:
- "enough of a critical mass" - "to matter" - "leverage control" - "onramps to the information highway" - "game over" - "meaningful access" - "most internet content" - "islands" - "hopeless, irrelevant rebellion" - "microsoft world"
Sorry, but if you're going to play dumb, it would be far too tedious and time consuming to try and bring you up to speed. Suffice it to say there is apparently a huge gap between our positions. Go back to sleep... Joe -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Silent Night : Lyrics Play Music ! Silent night, holy night All is calm, all is bright Round yon Virgin Mother and Child Holy Infant so tender and mild Sleep in heavenly peace Sleep in heavenly peace Silent night, holy night! Shepherds quake at the sight Glories stream from heaven afar Heavenly hosts sing Alleluia! Christ, the Saviour is born Christ, the Saviour is born Silent night, holy night Son of God, love's pure light Radiant beams from Thy holy face With the dawn of redeeming grace Jesus, Lord, at Thy birth Jesus, Lord, at Thy birth " On 12/25/06, J Sloan <joe@tmsusa.com> wrote:
Randall R Schulz wrote:
Can you define what you mean when you say:
- "enough of a critical mass" - "to matter" - "leverage control" - "onramps to the information highway" - "game over" - "meaningful access" - "most internet content" - "islands" - "hopeless, irrelevant rebellion" - "microsoft world"
Sorry, but if you're going to play dumb, it would be far too tedious and time consuming to try and bring you up to speed. Suffice it to say there is apparently a huge gap between our positions. Go back to sleep...
Joe -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Druid wrote:
Silent Night : Lyrics Play Music !
Silent night, holy night All is calm, all is bright Round yon Virgin Mother and Child Holy Infant so tender and mild Sleep in heavenly peace Sleep in heavenly peace
Silent night, holy night! Shepherds quake at the sight Glories stream from heaven afar Heavenly hosts sing Alleluia! Christ, the Saviour is born Christ, the Saviour is born
Silent night, holy night Son of God, love's pure light Radiant beams from Thy holy face With the dawn of redeeming grace Jesus, Lord, at Thy birth Jesus, Lord, at Thy birth "
Point taken... Thanks for the reminder. Joe -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 24 December 2006 19:46, J Sloan wrote:
Randall R Schulz wrote:
Can you define what you mean when you say:
- "enough of a critical mass" - "to matter" - "leverage control" - "onramps to the information highway" - "game over" - "meaningful access" - "most internet content" - "islands" - "hopeless, irrelevant rebellion" - "microsoft world"
Sorry, but if you're going to play dumb, it would be far too tedious and time consuming to try and bring you up to speed. Suffice it to say there is apparently a huge gap between our positions. Go back to sleep...
Then I take it you cannot neither explicate nor defend your position, whatever it may be, using concrete, unambiguous and non-metaphorical language. I accept your concession.
Joe
RRS -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Randall R Schulz wrote:
On Sunday 24 December 2006 19:46, J Sloan wrote:
Randall R Schulz wrote:
Can you define what you mean when you say:
- "enough of a critical mass" - "to matter" - "leverage control" - "onramps to the information highway" - "game over" - "meaningful access" - "most internet content" - "islands" - "hopeless, irrelevant rebellion" - "microsoft world" Sorry, but if you're going to play dumb, it would be far too tedious and time consuming to try and bring you up to speed. Suffice it to say there is apparently a huge gap between our positions. Go back to sleep...
Then I take it you cannot neither explicate nor defend your position, whatever it may be, using concrete, unambiguous and non-metaphorical language.
I accept your concession.
No need. Perhaps I was too hasty to dismiss your questions - Each of the points you reference above can be easily grasped with just a bit of thought, but I hesitate to put a lot of work into explaining all these points if you're really determined not to understand. The bottom line is that you apparently see no danger to linux, but I do - as for the details, they will have to await another post, when I have some time to laboriously explain each of the common terms used above. Joe -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 24 December 2006 20:55, J Sloan wrote:
...
No need. Perhaps I was too hasty to dismiss your questions - Each of the points you reference above can be easily grasped with just a bit of thought, but I hesitate to put a lot of work into explaining all these points if you're really determined not to understand.
On the contrary. I want a discussion that is not dripping with ambiguity, imagery and allusion and not so laden with emotion. Nothing good is served by carrying on in that manner. You could call it FUD...
The bottom line is that you apparently see no danger to linux, but I do - as for the details, they will have to await another post, when I have some time to laboriously explain each of the common terms used above.
In fact, I see no danger to Linux because you cannot destroy an idea. Linux is too entrenched and too important to far too many individuals and organizations, including large business concerns, distributed all over the globe to be allowed to die or be killed. Consider the RIM / Blackberry suit. It was resolved because the technology was just too damn important to too many "important" people in the U.S. (i.e., people willing to shell out huge bucks to be distracted by their email at all times in all places) to be allowed to go dark. The same holds for Linux, only in a much less frivolous way.
Joe
Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, 2006-12-24 at 21:34 -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
On Sunday 24 December 2006 20:55, J Sloan wrote:
...
No need. Perhaps I was too hasty to dismiss your questions - Each of the points you reference above can be easily grasped with just a bit of thought, but I hesitate to put a lot of work into explaining all these points if you're really determined not to understand.
On the contrary. I want a discussion that is not dripping with ambiguity, imagery and allusion and not so laden with emotion. Nothing good is served by carrying on in that manner. You could call it FUD...
The bottom line is that you apparently see no danger to linux, but I do - as for the details, they will have to await another post, when I have some time to laboriously explain each of the common terms used above.
In fact, I see no danger to Linux because you cannot destroy an idea. Linux is too entrenched and too important to far too many individuals and organizations, including large business concerns, distributed all over the globe to be allowed to die or be killed.
The quibble I have with this statement is that you missed what I consider to be an essential point, i.e. unlike other OS's that businesses have used in the past e.g. OS2, Linux is open source, hence any set of competent programmers _can_ keep it going. It's open nature, IMO, is proof against easy demise.
Consider the RIM / Blackberry suit. It was resolved because the technology was just too damn important to too many "important" people in the U.S. (i.e., people willing to shell out huge bucks to be distracted by their email at all times in all places) to be allowed to go dark. The same holds for Linux, only in a much less frivolous way.
An interesting take on that. I believe that it was only, all about the money, not about protecting the IP. But then I'm biased in favour of RIM, as they are Canadian. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 25 December 2006 07:10, Mike McMullin wrote:
...
In fact, I see no danger to Linux because you cannot destroy an idea. Linux is too entrenched and too important to far too many individuals and organizations, including large business concerns, distributed all over the globe to be allowed to die or be killed.
The quibble I have with this statement is that you missed what I consider to be an essential point, i.e. unlike other OS's that businesses have used in the past e.g. OS2, Linux is open source, hence any set of competent programmers _can_ keep it going. It's open nature, IMO, is proof against easy demise.
I don't see how your quibble is even opposed to what I wrote. I'm arguing that Linux is not at risk for becoming extinct.
...
Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 2006-12-25 at 08:11 -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
On Monday 25 December 2006 07:10, Mike McMullin wrote:
...
In fact, I see no danger to Linux because you cannot destroy an idea. Linux is too entrenched and too important to far too many individuals and organizations, including large business concerns, distributed all over the globe to be allowed to die or be killed.
The quibble I have with this statement is that you missed what I consider to be an essential point, i.e. unlike other OS's that businesses have used in the past e.g. OS2, Linux is open source, hence any set of competent programmers _can_ keep it going. It's open nature, IMO, is proof against easy demise.
I don't see how your quibble is even opposed to what I wrote. I'm arguing that Linux is not at risk for becoming extinct.
We're agreeing in a different vein. You're right about the entrenchment, but even OS2 was entrenched to a degree, (I'm thinking of Diebold ATM's in particular), but went away and will stay that way as it's source is locked away. That's not how Linux is being done, so I'm seeing a longer life span. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, 2006-12-24 at 20:55 -0800, J Sloan wrote:
No need. Perhaps I was too hasty to dismiss your questions - Each of the points you reference above can be easily grasped with just a bit of thought, but I hesitate to put a lot of work into explaining all these points if you're really determined not to understand.
The bottom line is that you apparently see no danger to linux, but I do - as for the details, they will have to await another post, when I have some time to laboriously explain each of the common terms used above.
Joe please don't trouble yourself...we have better things to do.
-- Tom in NM SuSE 9.3/Evolution 10:36pm up 14 days 9:18, 3 users, load average: 4.16, 4.10, 4.03 ==== -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 24 December 2006 19:48, Randall R Schulz wrote:
On Sunday 24 December 2006 19:46, J Sloan wrote:
Randall R Schulz wrote:
Can you define what you mean when you say:
- "enough of a critical mass" - "to matter" - "leverage control" - "onramps to the information highway" - "game over" - "meaningful access" - "most internet content" - "islands" - "hopeless, irrelevant rebellion" - "microsoft world"
Sorry, but if you're going to play dumb, it would be far too tedious and time consuming to try and bring you up to speed. Suffice it to say there is apparently a huge gap between our positions. Go back to sleep...
Then I take it you cannot neither explicate nor defend your position, whatever it may be, using concrete, unambiguous and non-metaphorical language.
I accept your concession.
Why must you be so rude! -- _____________________________________ John Andersen -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
J Sloan a écrit :
Sorry, but if you're going to play dumb,
with several players... Linux is born quite many times agos and did not stopped to grow. Linux is now a major part of the server market and this alone make it's life sure. To hope find a solution to problems, these problems must be precisely evaluated and solutions found. right now, I see only one real problem, covering most of your concerns: some unavoidable public standards are legally uncompatible with opensource (mp3 writing - not reading, dvdcss...) in that matter, there are two solution part: * find a company willing to pay for a global licence for the proprietary standards (probably the simpler part) * find a way to make these drivers interact with opensourse. A very good solution is an openSUSE _BOX_. Only the opensource world need to accept than _some_ very small parts of a running system _can't be_ opensource, only for a dawn fu... legal reason. The reaction on the deal Novell/Microsoft shows that part of the OS community is not yet ready to this, may be simply because a legal frame have not yet been found that makes all the parties feel comfortable. this is the right direction to work, not wide spread rants... jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/mediawiki/index.php/GPS_Lowrance_GO -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 25 December 2006 03:46, J Sloan wrote:
Randall R Schulz wrote:
Can you define what you mean when you say:
- "enough of a critical mass" - "to matter" - "leverage control" - "onramps to the information highway" - "game over" - "meaningful access" - "most internet content" - "islands" - "hopeless, irrelevant rebellion" - "microsoft world"
Sorry, but if you're going to play dumb, it would be far too tedious and time consuming to try and bring you up to speed. Suffice it to say there is apparently a huge gap between our positions. Go back to sleep...
Joe
Ohhhhhhhhhh touchy are we ... ?. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 25 December 2006 03:49, Peter Nikolic wrote:
Sorry, but if you're going to play dumb, it would be far too tedious and time consuming to try and bring you up to speed. Suffice it to say there is apparently a huge gap between our positions. Go back to sleep...
Joe
Ohhhhhhhhhh touchy are we ... ?.
lol....this is better than southpark...... Merry Christmas all. -- This computer is powered by OpenSuse 10.2 8:58am up 4 days 11:22, 2 users, load average: 0.65, 0.98, 0.70 kernel-2.6.18.2-34-default http://norwichlinuxusersgroup.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Peter Nikolic wrote:
On Monday 25 December 2006 03:46, J Sloan wrote:
Randall R Schulz wrote:
Can you define what you mean when you say:
- "enough of a critical mass" - "to matter" - "leverage control" - "onramps to the information highway" - "game over" - "meaningful access" - "most internet content" - "islands" - "hopeless, irrelevant rebellion" - "microsoft world" Sorry, but if you're going to play dumb, it would be far too tedious and time consuming to try and bring you up to speed. Suffice it to say there is apparently a huge gap between our positions. Go back to sleep...
Joe
Ohhhhhhhhhh touchy are we ... ?.
Yeah, my bad - I took his reply as "I don't like what you're saying, so I'm going to pretend that I don't understand any of commonly understood terms you used, and I'm going to demand that you define everything" I admit, "go back to sleep" was uncalled for. The basic issue is whether the success of linux is assured, or whether there is yet work to be done. I think there is work to be done, and it can certainly be accomplished with the available talent of the linux community, but there is a certain wealthy corporation with access to lawmakers and key influencers, who consider it fairly important to stop linux. To ignore this fact will not make the job easier, to put it mildly. I'll probably just send Randall the definitions of those commonly used terms that he wanted via PM to avoid inflicting any more of the thread on this list. Joe -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 24 December 2006 19:39, Randall R Schulz wrote:
On Sunday 24 December 2006 19:03, J Sloan wrote:
...
Unfortunately, it's not about being mainstream anymore - at this point, it's about viability, period.
If linux can't achieve enough of a critical mass on the desktop to matter, microsoft will be able to leverage control of all the onramps, so to speak, to the "information highway", and then it's game over. Unless of course, you're content to use linux on a hobbyist basis, without meaningful access to the most internet content, constituting nothing more than small islands of hopeless, irrelevant rebellion in a microsoft world.
Joe is absolutely correct to be worried about the future viability of Linux software. Of course, it's not game over today, but if you've looked at the implications of a future where every device, every piece of hardware has to meet DRM specifications or the media will not play he's correct to be worried. I suggest you start with this article that talks about the implications http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt that Microsoft Vista has for equipment suppliers. We (Linux users) are at what 4-5 % of computer users? Much of our current use of hardware is based on adapting hardware made for Windows equipment to Linux. What if we come to the point that we can't buy graphics cards without Windows DRM that relegates linux users to low resolution graphics? I'm not suggesting that the sky is falling today, but I do think there are a lot of black clouds on the horizon that we should be concerned about.
Anyway, I don't believe that desktop acceptance has anything to do with Linux's long-term viability. One simple example among many, the fact that Amazon.com runs almost all of it's on-line systems using Linux, is enough to show that Linux has a secure future.
If regular Linux users can't get access to hardware because it's DRM crippled and all you want to do is run servers on it, OK. If the rest of us who currently use our our Linux boxes to store and play audio, video, and all kinds of other files, maybe not.
Software development is far more efficient under Linux or other Unix-oriented systems. The only time one would use Windows is when writing Windows-specific software.
Or when you're forced to because everything is contaminated with DRM.
The personal computing world will not end if Linux does not gain some minimal market- or "mind-" share. Look at the Macintosh. It has a small minority of the installed base of personal / desktop and server systems. But it remains eminently viable.
Yes, but there's a crucial difference. Apple is every bit as proprietary as Microsoft, and every bit as DRM laden. They wouldn't care if the world adopted the sort of DRM Microsoft is proposing because it's also to their advantage. It's the rest of us with open source software that might be locked out.
The sky is not falling on Linux.
I'm not suggesting that the sky is falling today, but I do think there are a lot of black clouds on the horizon that we should be concerned about. Microsoft may well have over-reached itself and it's DRM laden Vista may fall flat on it's face. I hope so, but when someone with that much firepower takes aim it's prudent to take cover. (And plan counter-measures!) -- Bob Smits Ladysmith BC Phone 250-245-2553 Fax 250-245-5531 Email bob@rsmits.ca -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 24 December 2006 23:22, Robert Smits wrote:
...
Joe is absolutely correct to be worried about the future viability of Linux software. Of course, it's not game over today, but if you've looked at the implications of a future where every device, every piece of hardware has to meet DRM specifications or the media will not play he's correct to be worried.
There's a tremendous range of applications that have nothing to do with media. And there's a lot of media that is not now released under DRM and there will continue to be a lot of it. Every paragraph of your reply except one mentions DRM! If you see the entire issue of open computing platforms as one and the same with DRM, then you're not going to be able to properly and comprehensively address issues of equal and open access to computing. RRS -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, 2006-12-24 at 23:32 -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
On Sunday 24 December 2006 23:22, Robert Smits wrote:
...
Joe is absolutely correct to be worried about the future viability of Linux software. Of course, it's not game over today, but if you've looked at the implications of a future where every device, every piece of hardware has to meet DRM specifications or the media will not play he's correct to be worried.
There's a tremendous range of applications that have nothing to do with media. And there's a lot of media that is not now released under DRM and there will continue to be a lot of it.
Every paragraph of your reply except one mentions DRM! If you see the entire issue of open computing platforms as one and the same with DRM, then you're not going to be able to properly and comprehensively address issues of equal and open access to computing.
My apologies for tacking this onto your article, Randall. One ought to seriously consider that there are those Windows users who don't want DRM laden technology stopping them from doing what they want. The market has yet to through it's weight around on this issue, I suspect that is mostly because it is unaware of alternatives. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 25 December 2006 07:25, Mike McMullin wrote:
...
One ought to seriously consider that there are those Windows users who don't want DRM laden technology stopping them from doing what they want. The market has yet to through it's weight around on this issue, I suspect that is mostly because it is unaware of alternatives.
This emphasizes the non-technical aspect of DRM. It's only there and growing because of the current lopsided state of intellectual property law and that's what it is entirely because of the hegemony formed by large business corporations. So there is no technical solution to this aspect of DRM, except of course to continue to subvert it (technically). Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 24 December 2006 23:32, Randall R Schulz wrote:
On Sunday 24 December 2006 23:22, Robert Smits wrote:
...
Joe is absolutely correct to be worried about the future viability of Linux software. Of course, it's not game over today, but if you've looked at the implications of a future where every device, every piece of hardware has to meet DRM specifications or the media will not play he's correct to be worried.
There's a tremendous range of applications that have nothing to do with media. And there's a lot of media that is not now released under DRM and there will continue to be a lot of it.
Every paragraph of your reply except one mentions DRM! If you see the entire issue of open computing platforms as one and the same with DRM, then you're not going to be able to properly and comprehensively address issues of equal and open access to computing.
Of course it's not only DRM! It's DRM, software patents, proprietary software, copyright legislation and a whole host of things that have the potential to really screw up the future. It's not going to go away simply because you choose to ignore it. I'm optimistic that the world will see through these various schemes to harness us all to the proprietary world, but we need to be paying attention. I fear some of us are still comfortably asleep. -- Bob Smits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 25 December 2006 08:24, Robert Smits wrote:
On Sunday 24 December 2006 23:32, Randall R Schulz wrote:
...
Every paragraph of your reply except one mentions DRM! If you see the entire issue of open computing platforms as one and the same with DRM, then you're not going to be able to properly and comprehensively address issues of equal and open access to computing.
Of course it's not only DRM! It's DRM, software patents, proprietary software, copyright legislation and a whole host of things that have the potential to really screw up the future. It's not going to go away simply because you choose to ignore it.
I'm not ignoring it.
I'm optimistic that the world will see through these various schemes to harness us all to the proprietary world, but we need to be paying attention. I fear some of us are still comfortably asleep.
How is that simple statement of optimism different than me saying I don't think Linux is in danger of being eradicated / exterminated / made extict / outlawed / whatever.
-- Bob Smits
Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, 2006-12-24 at 23:22 -0800, Robert Smits wrote:
On Sunday 24 December 2006 19:39, Randall R Schulz wrote:
Joe is absolutely correct to be worried about the future viability of Linux software. Of course, it's not game over today, but if you've looked at the implications of a future where every device, every piece of hardware has to meet DRM specifications or the media will not play he's correct to be worried.
I suggest you start with this article that talks about the implications http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt that Microsoft Vista has for equipment suppliers.
We (Linux users) are at what 4-5 % of computer users?
Actually closer to 10%
Much of our current use of hardware is based on adapting hardware made for Windows equipment to Linux.
The hardware is not made for Windows, drivers are written to sork with the OS. The only hurdle is getting drivers for the hardware written for linux.
What if we come to the point that we can't buy graphics cards without Windows DRM that relegates linux users to low resolution graphics?
What if the world blows up tomorrow?
I'm not suggesting that the sky is falling today,
But that is precisely what you are doing. Linux is used far and wide by the federal government for it to go away. -- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Kenneth Schneider wrote:
On Sun, 2006-12-24 at 23:22 -0800, Robert Smits wrote:
On Sunday 24 December 2006 19:39, Randall R Schulz wrote: Joe is absolutely correct to be worried about the future viability of Linux software. Of course, it's not game over today, but if you've looked at the implications of a future where every device, every piece of hardware has to meet DRM specifications or the media will not play he's correct to be worried.
I suggest you start with this article that talks about the implications http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt that Microsoft Vista has for equipment suppliers.
[pruned]
What if we come to the point that we can't buy graphics cards without Windows DRM that relegates linux users to low resolution graphics?
What if the world blows up tomorrow?
I'm not suggesting that the sky is falling today,
But that is precisely what you are doing.
Linux is used far and wide by the federal government for it to go away.
But Ken, your federal government must have used some other OS before switching to Linux which means that 'they' are a fickle lot and will switch from Linux at a drop of a hat. If they abandoned the other OS then they will abandon Linux given the appropriate excuses. Cheers. -- In a period of great joy and pleasure you are comforted by the thought that tragedy is just around the corner. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Basil Chupin a écrit :
But Ken, your federal government must have used some other OS before switching to Linux which means that 'they' are a fickle lot and will switch from Linux at a drop of a hat. If they abandoned the other OS then they will abandon Linux given the appropriate excuses.
a gov usually don't do things without reason. you severely underestimate the opensourse stgrenght _in it's principle_. US gov may trust Msoft (do it?) but no other gov should do and many become aware of that. let only for safety of financial or military state computers. Do you imagine how easy it is for NSA to get any entry in any computer running windows without anyone knowing it? any government have the power of reading a kernel source as a way of verifying if there is a backgate. just as one of many strong argument. we are far from the usual mediacenter, but this mean than many people have great interest of linux survive. just an other example. You are certainly aware of the number of standalone photo card reader/cdwriter one can find in any shop nowaday. Many run Linux. so when we will need a reader driver, we will have one :-) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/mediawiki/index.php/GPS_Lowrance_GO -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 2006-12-25 at 23:59 +1100, Basil Chupin wrote:
Kenneth Schneider wrote:
On Sun, 2006-12-24 at 23:22 -0800, Robert Smits wrote:
On Sunday 24 December 2006 19:39, Randall R Schulz wrote: Joe is absolutely correct to be worried about the future viability of Linux software. Of course, it's not game over today, but if you've looked at the implications of a future where every device, every piece of hardware has to meet DRM specifications or the media will not play he's correct to be worried.
I suggest you start with this article that talks about the implications http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt that Microsoft Vista has for equipment suppliers.
[pruned]
What if we come to the point that we can't buy graphics cards without Windows DRM that relegates linux users to low resolution graphics?
What if the world blows up tomorrow?
I'm not suggesting that the sky is falling today,
But that is precisely what you are doing.
Linux is used far and wide by the federal government for it to go away.
But Ken, your federal government must have used some other OS before switching to Linux which means that 'they' are a fickle lot and will switch from Linux at a drop of a hat. If they abandoned the other OS then they will abandon Linux given the appropriate excuses.
Part of it is cost, part of it is security. The release of Vista seems to indicate the end of the MS monolithic desktop, can their server software be far behind? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Monday December 25 2006 10:47 am, Mike McMullin wrote:
But Ken, your federal government must have used some other OS before switching to Linux which means that 'they' are a fickle lot and will switch from Linux at a drop of a hat. If they abandoned the other OS then they will abandon Linux given the appropriate excuses.
Part of it is cost, part of it is security. The release of Vista seems to indicate the end of the MS monolithic desktop, can their server software be far behind?
I question if Vista really is the "end" of the MS momolithic desktop. From my brief hands on with it, I'd disagree. ;) Fred -- MickySoft, the ultimate corporate parasite. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 2006-12-25 at 18:46 -0500, Fred A. Miller wrote:
On Monday December 25 2006 10:47 am, Mike McMullin wrote:
But Ken, your federal government must have used some other OS before switching to Linux which means that 'they' are a fickle lot and will switch from Linux at a drop of a hat. If they abandoned the other OS then they will abandon Linux given the appropriate excuses.
Part of it is cost, part of it is security. The release of Vista seems to indicate the end of the MS monolithic desktop, can their server software be far behind?
I question if Vista really is the "end" of the MS momolithic desktop. From my brief hands on with it, I'd disagree. ;)
(MS)ZD-Net was commenting that the length of time and cost to produce Vista could mark this type of softwares end. Supposedly there was a team of 12 to 25 individuals just to handle the log-out/switch user aspect. Either end of that number seems a good deal of folk. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday December 26 2006 11:59 am, Mike McMullin wrote:
On Mon, 2006-12-25 at 18:46 -0500, Fred A. Miller wrote:
On Monday December 25 2006 10:47 am, Mike McMullin wrote:
But Ken, your federal government must have used some other OS before switching to Linux which means that 'they' are a fickle lot and will switch from Linux at a drop of a hat. If they abandoned the other OS then they will abandon Linux given the appropriate excuses.
Part of it is cost, part of it is security. The release of Vista seems to indicate the end of the MS monolithic desktop, can their server software be far behind?
I question if Vista really is the "end" of the MS momolithic desktop. From my brief hands on with it, I'd disagree. ;)
(MS)ZD-Net was commenting that the length of time and cost to produce Vista could mark this type of softwares end. Supposedly there was a team of 12 to 25 individuals just to handle the log-out/switch user aspect. Either end of that number seems a good deal of folk.
MickySoft's No. 1 problem is that they code "by committee." VERY FEW there have even seen all of the code to any given application or OS. And, because the code isn't open, there aren't the number of "eyes" reviewing code, thus all the bugs that their software is rightly known for. Fred -- MickySoft, the ultimate corporate parasite. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Basil Chupin wrote:
Kenneth Schneider wrote:
Linux is used far and wide by the federal government for it to go away.
But Ken, your federal government must have used some other OS before switching to Linux which means that 'they' are a fickle lot and will switch from Linux at a drop of a hat. If they abandoned the other OS then they will abandon Linux given the appropriate excuses.
Indeed, linux is used heavily in the server rooms, as it should be, but it isn't that hard to imagine a scenario where some convicted monopolist gives a government agency a sweetheart deal, applying pressure at several points: bribes for the decision makers, offers of free software and free support for 3 years, reams of "studies" showing that microsoft servers are super duper, and that "everyone else is going that way". The hapless bureaucrat might well shrug and say "we're using 100% microsoft on the desktop, why not in the server room too". But even a 10% linux presence on the desktop would be a powerful deterrent against such a checkmate. There really is a network effect, that the clever business people at microsoft understand well. When there are a lot of interdependencies, you can't just yank one piece out - but in the case where linux is isolated in the server room, it can be replaced, even though technically speaking, it should not be. Read Linus statements about the importance of desktop Linux for a heads-up. Joe -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 2006-12-25 at 10:13 -0800, J Sloan wrote:
Basil Chupin wrote:
Kenneth Schneider wrote:
Linux is used far and wide by the federal government for it to go away.
But Ken, your federal government must have used some other OS before switching to Linux which means that 'they' are a fickle lot and will switch from Linux at a drop of a hat. If they abandoned the other OS then they will abandon Linux given the appropriate excuses.
Indeed, linux is used heavily in the server rooms, as it should be, but it isn't that hard to imagine a scenario where some convicted monopolist gives a government agency a sweetheart deal, applying pressure at several points: bribes for the decision makers, offers of free software and free support for 3 years, reams of "studies" showing that microsoft servers are super duper, and that "everyone else is going that way". The hapless bureaucrat might well shrug and say "we're using 100% microsoft on the desktop, why not in the server room too".
Joe, This already happened over ten years ago, Novell was on top, nothing else existed except Unix and Linux. Microsoft swooped in by stealing technology and innovating quicker,i.e. Microsoft gateway for Netware networks, Microsoft Services for Netware, TCPIP adoption and Internet Explorer. I have already been on the underdog side of this by maintaining my Novell allegiances and certifications. I am glad to have read this thread because I won't keep myself poor next time, If I don't see a 64bit uptake in the Linux environment and I don't see Multimedia support growth. I am going to go to south "think Mexico or South America", give up on civilization taking a fare and equitable stance on computing, and support Linux where it can still make a difference, the still developing non\little Internet enabled, ever growing and excepting of change atmosphere of the southern hemisphere( I'd go to China but I'm already cold) . No insult intended to those countries! They are the last bastion of growth, opportunity and prosperity. James
But even a 10% linux presence on the desktop would be a powerful deterrent against such a checkmate. There really is a network effect, that the clever business people at microsoft understand well. When there are a lot of interdependencies, you can't just yank one piece out - but in the case where linux is isolated in the server room, it can be replaced, even though technically speaking, it should not be.
Read Linus statements about the importance of desktop Linux for a heads-up.
Joe
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 25 December 2006 04:39, Kenneth Schneider wrote:
We (Linux users) are at what 4-5 % of computer users?
Actually closer to 10%
Good. I haven't seen estimates that high, but I suspect it's because it's much harder to aggregate all those downloads and magazine DVDs.
Much of our current use of hardware is based on adapting hardware made for Windows equipment to Linux.
The hardware is not made for Windows, drivers are written to sork with the OS. The only hurdle is getting drivers for the hardware written for linux.
The current generation of hardware IS being made for Windows, by and large, and a other operating systems can use it as well. But the current generation of Windows hardware does not have to cater to the demands of VISTA compatible hardware and it doesn't matter that most of it is going into Windows boxes. It may begin to matter when the hardware made for Windows boxes won't work for anyone else.
What if we come to the point that we can't buy graphics cards without Windows DRM that relegates linux users to low resolution graphics?
What if the world blows up tomorrow?
Then I doubt we'll be worried about any of this stuff.
I'm not suggesting that the sky is falling today,
But that is precisely what you are doing.
With respect, Ken, what I said was "I'm not suggesting that the sky is falling today, but I do think there are a lot of black clouds on the horizon that we should be concerned about." I'm not suggesting we should throw up our hands and acquiesce. I suggest we take the possibilities seriously and do whatever each of us can to combat it.
Linux is used far and wide by the federal government for it to go away.
Government (in any country) is too fickle to be counted as a saviour of OSS software. Governments can change hands, lobbyists curry favour, and we get shafted. Linux will really only be secure when a large enough portion of the market uses it everyday that no government would dare piss off all those voters. -- Bob Smits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 12/24/06, Randall R Schulz <rschulz@sonic.net> wrote:
Can you define what you mean when you say:
- "enough of a critical mass" - "to matter" - "leverage control" - "onramps to the information highway" - "game over" - "meaningful access" - "most internet content" - "islands" - "hopeless, irrelevant rebellion" - "microsoft world"
Suffice it to say I consider that paragraph to be nearly devoid of meaning.
lol! I was thinking the same thing as I read it.
However, you may very well have a future in one of these domains:
- Marketing communications - Public Relations - Generic vacuous persuasion - Elective representative in the U.S.A.
Again, I agree with you generally Randall ... however I find myself wondering why your responses are framed in such agressive language? Ask the questions, push the author to be specific about what he means ... but I believe it can be done without insulting and sarcastic humor at the posters expense.
Anyway, I don't believe that desktop acceptance has anything to do with Linux's long-term viability. One simple example among many, the fact that Amazon.com runs almost all of it's on-line systems using Linux, is enough to show that Linux has a secure future.
I tend to agree that the sky is not falling, but at the same time there may be reason to think that a window of opportunity could be missed, at great cost to the future of linux: http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/world-domination/world-domination-201.html I would be interested in the lists take on Eric Raymonds position here. I too think that multi-media support is critical, and that desktop acceptance may be more rather than less important. At the very least, this is an interesting read. Peter -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Peter, On Tuesday 26 December 2006 08:54, Peter Van Lone wrote:
...
Again, I agree with you generally Randall ... however I find myself wondering why your responses are framed in such agressive language? Ask the questions, push the author to be specific about what he means ... but I believe it can be done without insulting and sarcastic humor at the posters expense.
Probably true, but I read and participate in a lot of on-line debates (not just on the SuSE forums), and I'm growing progressively more weary of and frustrated with poorly thought out, poorly phrased, overly emotional or downright irrelevant arguments people throw out. Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Randall R Schulz a écrit :
Probably true, but I read and participate in a lot of on-line debates (not just on the SuSE forums), and I'm growing progressively more weary of and frustrated with poorly thought out, poorly phrased, overly emotional or downright irrelevant arguments people throw out.
welcome in true life, Randal :-))) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/mediawiki/index.php/GPS_Lowrance_GO -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 26 December 2006 09:15, jdd wrote:
Randall R Schulz a écrit :
Probably true, but I read and participate in a lot of on-line debates (not just on the SuSE forums), and I'm growing progressively more weary of and frustrated with poorly thought out, poorly phrased, overly emotional or downright irrelevant arguments people throw out.
welcome in true life, Randal :-)))
Thanks. It's good to feel welcomed. And thanks for not pointing out the missing article that renders that sentence non-grammatical.
jdd
RRS -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Randall R Schulz wrote:
Peter,
On Tuesday 26 December 2006 08:54, Peter Van Lone wrote:
...
Again, I agree with you generally Randall ... however I find myself wondering why your responses are framed in such agressive language? Ask the questions, push the author to be specific about what he means ... but I believe it can be done without insulting and sarcastic humor at the posters expense.
Probably true, but I read and participate in a lot of on-line debates (not just on the SuSE forums), and I'm growing progressively more weary of and frustrated with poorly thought out, poorly phrased, overly emotional or downright irrelevant arguments people throw out.
The problem is, you reacted in an aggressive manner to a perfectly valid comment. With few exceptions, any fairly intelligent person with some exposure to elementary IT concepts would understand that "the information superhighway" is a euphemism for the internet, and the "onramps" to the internet are of course ISPs, wireless access points, etc. You seemed likewise baffled by the concept of "internet content", which would be various forms of information including text and multimedia formats, which can be accessed over the internet. This whole business of "meaningful access" would be full and un-crippled access to the same internet content that is available to e.g. microsoft users. The other terms for which you demanded explanation are similarly clear. Who could possibly demand a definition of what it means "to matter"? I see that others on the list understood the terms, and have had experience with the frustrations of dealing with microsoft-centric entities while using linux. So, I've come to the conclusion that your demand for explanation is not genuine, but rather a tactic to weary the opponent. Since your general posting history indicates some intelligence, the logical conclusion is that you simply don't want to understand the message because you don't like it. As for your typically kind hearted career suggestions (politics, marketing etc) I'll have to pass. I'd be bored to death with the sorts of careers you suggest, having always worked professionally as a pure technical geek. Joe -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 24 December 2006 19:03, J Sloan wrote:
John Meyer wrote:
Fred A. Miller wrote:
You can't win the desktop if you don't even try. Right now, few in the Linux world are seriously trying. And time is running out.
I've heard this argument too many times to count. With all due respect to the author, the argument is based on the assumption that we want to be mainstreram, that we want everybody and their grandmother to be running Linux. Personally, I don't.
Unfortunately, it's not about being mainstream anymore - at this point, it's about viability, period.
Yes. Oh, and I want it to be mainstream. I'm all for it. I'm not sure if the "window" of opportunity has passed, but that's what I've been wanting for several years now. I don't know why anyone wouldn't want Linux to be mainstream. I'm all for Lindows and what they're doing. If their system had worked on my hardware, I'd be using it. If I wanted to be using a niche OS for hobby purposes, I'd be on BeOS or Minix or MacOS. I want my system to work and that is why I really like Linux.
If linux can't achieve enough of a critical mass on the desktop to matter, microsoft will be able to leverage control of all the onramps, so to speak, to the "information highway", and then it's game over. Unless of course, you're content to use linux on a hobbyist basis, without meaningful access to the most internet content, constituting nothing more than small islands of hopeless, irrelevant rebellion in a microsoft world.
I agree with esr's contention that somebody needs to get the ball rolling, and to waste no time.
Subscribe!
Joe
-- kai www.perfectreign.com || www.4thedadz.com a turn signal is a statement, not a request -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday December 24 2006 9:36 pm, John Meyer wrote: [snip]
I've heard this argument too many times to count. With all due respect to the author, the argument is based on the assumption that we want to be mainstreram, that we want everybody and their grandmother to be running Linux. Personally, I don't. Why?
Ah........you're not alone in that, I don't think. However, there's much to consider like economics. There MUST be a steady growth of new users to keep the coffers at least partially full to finance companies like Novell. Further, we need that growth to have the hardware support and applications that so many have wanted for so long.
Because inevitably software manufacturers will dumb down Linux to the point where the protections cease to be relevant. People will be running their computers 100 percent of the time in root mode because they can't be bothered with the hassle of using 'su' when and only when they really need to upgrade something.
That's ignorant and it happens with any OS where a user can run as root. Linux MUST be easy to install and manage for the masses, PLUS allow those who want to get into the guts of it to do so. It CAN be "all things to all people."
Part of the reason why I believe Linux has been insulated from so many worms and virii and other things is the crucial part between the keyboard and the chair; the user that understands not to open every attachment they get, to be wary of phishing scams and whatnot. Is that being elitist? Maybe. But maybe I want to keep what is unique in the Linux world unique.
Yes.....it's being elitist, but I understand feeling that way, as there's at least a tad bit of that in all of us. If for no other reason, in that a lot of us have been using Linux for a long time and have "paid our dues" sometime ago. ;) However, a Linux world is a LOT better to deal with than a MickySoft world.
In as far as multimedia support, yeah, SuSE doesn't have that out of the box. You know how long it takes for me to set it up? 2 minutes. And for that little inconvenience Novell and others don't have to ratchet up the price of every Linux shipment out there.
No.....it's not any big deal.
Those that want to make linux mainstream have their points, and I respect them. But there are some of us who may not think it is so bad where we are right now.
But, that's now. For SUSE to continue to exist, as well as other distros. and Linux developement in general, it MUST be driven by money or it won't happen. It's an ugly reality, but reality none the less. Fred -- MickySoft, the ultimate corporate parasite. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, Dec 24, 2006 at 08:25:59PM -0500, Fred A. Miller wrote:
Linux on the desktop has been a year or two away for over a decade now, and there are reasons it's not there yet. To attract nontechnical end-users, a Linux desktop must work out of the box, ideally preinstalled by the hardware vendor. Right now, Linux is usually an aftermarket upgrade on desktop and laptop systems. Default installations of Linux usually have poor multimedia support, are missing numerous codecs like QuickTime and WMV, and often lack even basic 3D acceleration. Linux can't even play DVDs without introducing the risk of lawsuits, and multimedia support files are usually hosted on non-US sites for legal reasons. Third party software support (from Quicken to World of Warcraft) is almost nonexistent.
You can't win the desktop if you don't even try. Right now, few in the Linux world are seriously trying. And time is running out.
http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/world-domination/world-domination-201.html...
But this is not a Linux problem, it is more a problem of the current state in the software industry where everything multimedia interesting requires per-copy royalties, NDAs, closed source and so on. Ciao, Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 25 December 2006 02:10, Marcus Meissner wrote:
But this is not a Linux problem, it is more a problem of the current state in the software industry where everything multimedia interesting requires per-copy royalties, NDAs, closed source and so on.
But this makes it a Linux problem! And a problem for every OS that is not proprietary closed source. The non OSS industry would love to shut us out of what you call "everything multimedia interesting". -- Bob Smits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Monday December 25 2006 5:10 am, Marcus Meissner wrote:
You can't win the desktop if you don't even try. Right now, few in the Linux world are seriously trying. And time is running out.
http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/world-domination/world-domination-201.h tml#id247970
But this is not a Linux problem, it is more a problem of the current state in the software industry where everything multimedia interesting requires per-copy royalties, NDAs, closed source and so on.
Partially correct. Don't forget that MickySoft has and will continue to do ALL it can to shut Linux OUT of the desktop maket. Some have said they don't fear Linux, which is about as ignorant a position as one can take. They know full well how much money they have lost in the server market. They're scared spitless that the same thing will happen on the desktop, and they'are RIGHT, IF and ONLY IF the issues of DRM are eliminated and there's better hardware support. Applications will come along fine, if there other 2 are taken care of. Fred -- MickySoft, the ultimate corporate parasite. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, Dec 25, 2006 at 04:54:34PM -0500, Fred A. Miller wrote:
On Monday December 25 2006 5:10 am, Marcus Meissner wrote:
You can't win the desktop if you don't even try. Right now, few in the Linux world are seriously trying. And time is running out.
http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/world-domination/world-domination-201.h tml#id247970
But this is not a Linux problem, it is more a problem of the current state in the software industry where everything multimedia interesting requires per-copy royalties, NDAs, closed source and so on.
Partially correct. Don't forget that MickySoft has and will continue to do ALL it can to shut Linux OUT of the desktop maket. Some have said they don't fear Linux, which is about as ignorant a position as one can take. They know full well how much money they have lost in the server market. They're scared spitless that the same thing will happen on the desktop, and they'are RIGHT, IF and ONLY IF the issues of DRM are eliminated and there's better hardware support. Applications will come along fine, if there other 2 are taken care of.
If you think it is just Microsoft blocking Linux on the Desktop, this is just not true. MP3 - Thompson / AudioMPEG group DVD - various consortiums, starting from The MPEG Group, Dolby and the DVD consortium itself WMV/WMA - well, a Microsoft problem but these could be easily replaced even usuable for Windows users. DRM - not really accepted even by Windows users. Or circumvented easily. Just walk through the city with open eye and see burned CDs played in CD recorders... And I just doubt all the music on the MP3 players is legally bought. DRM in my eyes is a non-issue at this time. CIao, MArcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 26 December 2006 11:11, Marcus Meissner wrote:
If you think it is just Microsoft blocking Linux on the Desktop, this is just not true.
MP3 - Thompson / AudioMPEG group DVD - various consortiums, starting from The MPEG Group, Dolby and the DVD consortium itself
WMV/WMA - well, a Microsoft problem but these could be easily replaced even usuable for Windows users.
DRM - not really accepted even by Windows users. Or circumvented easily. Just walk through the city with open eye and see burned CDs played in CD recorders... And I just doubt all the music on the MP3 players is legally bought. DRM in my eyes is a non-issue at this time.
Well DRM will be an issue for lots of people in the future. That's for sure. Received a boxed set of five old 007 movies remastered and enhanced on DVD from one of my children for Christmas. Popped one in my SuSE box, and guess what. Wouldn't play. Got a message that I needed to upgrade. Yep. Sony. And Barnes & Noble won't take them back because the "sealed" set was opened. Certainly an issue for me. Bob S. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Dec 29 2006 23:53, Bob S wrote:
On Tuesday 26 December 2006 11:11, Marcus Meissner wrote:
Received a boxed set of five old 007 movies remastered and enhanced on DVD from one of my children for Christmas. Popped one in my SuSE box, and guess what. Wouldn't play. Got a message that I needed to upgrade.
So what? DirectShow would not either be able to play divx OOTB. (Though it might do MPEG-2 because MS most likely $$ed for it.) -`J' -- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Am Tue, 26. December 2006 17:11 schrieb Marcus Meissner:
On Mon, Dec 25, 2006 at 04:54:34PM -0500, Fred A. Miller wrote:
On Monday December 25 2006 5:10 am, Marcus Meissner wrote:
You can't win the desktop if you don't even try. Right now, few in the Linux world are seriously trying. And time is running out.
http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/world-domination/world-domination-2 01.h tml#id247970
But this is not a Linux problem, it is more a problem of the current state in the software industry where everything multimedia interesting requires per-copy royalties, NDAs, closed source and so on.
Partially correct. Don't forget that MickySoft has and will continue to do ALL it can to shut Linux OUT of the desktop maket. Some have said they don't fear Linux, which is about as ignorant a position as one can take. They know full well how much money they have lost in the server market. They're scared spitless that the same thing will happen on the desktop, and they'are RIGHT, IF and ONLY IF the issues of DRM are eliminated and there's better hardware support. Applications will come along fine, if there other 2 are taken care of.
If you think it is just Microsoft blocking Linux on the Desktop, this is just not true.
MP3 - Thompson / AudioMPEG group DVD - various consortiums, starting from The MPEG Group, Dolby and the DVD consortium itself
WMV/WMA - well, a Microsoft problem but these could be easily replaced even usuable for Windows users.
DRM - not really accepted even by Windows users. Or circumvented easily. Just walk through the city with open eye and see burned CDs played in CD recorders... And I just doubt all the music on the MP3 players is legally bought. DRM in my eyes is a non-issue at this time.
Hhhm, I think you are wrong here, so at least for DRM. There was a german article on golem.de [1] which points to an interesting english article [2] about the effects which may come along with microsofts DRM implementation in Vista. [1] http://www.golem.de/0612/49655.html [2] http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt regards, thomas -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
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