[S.u.S.E. Linux] Configuration of three things
I have tried to find simple examples of what to do, but to no avail. 1. PPP If Linux is to somehow overtake Win95, an interface to configure PPP should present itself. I don't have time to wade through an endless dialog on how to set up PPP. Is there a one-stop doc for setting up ppp? WITH EXAMPLES? How many months will it take for me to simply set up the modem to dial my ISP and log in, and connect me to the internet? In WinNT and Win95 I'd be done long ago. Yast is INCOMPLETE for setting up my modem. It simply isn't finished. 2. Scanner I have an HP scanner. It's recognized by the hardware, and the yast program says it's there, but where's the software to USE the scanner? 3. Jazz Drive I have an internally installed SCSI Jazz drive ( 1 GB ). It's known to the system as /dev/sdb4 . Do I mount it? Samba it? How do I get my Jazz drive to work with Linux? Can somebody show me the correct mount command? I do not sit in front of my Linux box for hours wading through the wrong docs on what to do simply because I don't have the time. I'd really appreciate some simple CLEAR and unabstract docs with examples. What's really surprising is that Yast isn't in Tcl, and that there isn't a GUI interface to configure the modem, or a scanner, or a Jazz drive. And here I am STILL using NT for my email. Sigh. Thanks in advance if you can help! Tim Schaefer tschaefe@mindspring.com www.inxutil.com -- To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e
I hear you! I've spent many hours trying to do the simplest things. Frankly I have not achieved much. I don't mind spending some time to learn something new, but sheesh! I think Linux, at this point, is strictly for those who have programing in their background. It seems the manuals, man pages etc. are written for those who already completely understand all this stuff. Joe Average doesn't stand a chance. Linux has a long long way to go to even make a dent in the windows market, in terms of loading/configuring and overall ease of use. I'm beginning to suspect nobody actually does any work <I>in</I> Linux, rather, all their time is spent trying to get <I>it </I>to work : ). I just needed to blow off a little steam after much frustration. Tim Tim Schaefer wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>I have tried to find simple examples of what to do, but to no avail. 1. PPP If Linux is to somehow overtake Win95, an interface to configure PPP <BR> should present itself. I don't have time to wade through an endless <BR> dialog on how to set up PPP. Is there a one-stop doc for setting up <BR> ppp? WITH EXAMPLES? How many months will it take for me to simply <BR> set up the modem to dial my ISP and log in, and connect me to the <BR> internet? In WinNT and Win95 I'd be done long ago. Yast is INCOMPLETE <BR> for setting up my modem. It simply isn't finished. 2. Scanner I have an HP scanner. It's recognized by the hardware, and the yast <BR> program says it's there, but where's the software to USE the scanner? 3. Jazz Drive I have an internally installed SCSI Jazz drive ( 1 GB ). It's known to <BR> the system as /dev/sdb4 . Do I mount it? Samba it? How do I get my <BR> Jazz drive to work with Linux? Can somebody show me the correct <BR> mount command? I do not sit in front of my Linux box for hours wading through the wrong docs <BR>on what to do simply because I don't have the time. I'd really appreciate some <BR>simple CLEAR and unabstract docs with examples. What's really surprising is <BR>that Yast isn't in Tcl, and that there isn't a GUI interface to configure the <BR>modem, or a scanner, or a Jazz drive. And here I am STILL using NT for my <BR>email. Sigh. Thanks in advance if you can help! Tim Schaefer <BR>tschaefe@mindspring.com <BR>www.inxutil.com <BR>-- <BR>To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with <BR>this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e</BLOCKQUOTE> -- To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e
Hi! Trying to kill the keyboard, tschaefe@mindspring.com produced:
I have tried to find simple examples of what to do, but to no avail.
1. PPP
Have you read the PPP HOWTO? (not yet, I see. You should have the HOWTOs installed, then you can look it up under /usr/doc/howto/PPP-HOWTO.gz.) Did you read the ISP-Hookup-HOWTO? Did you read Linux Installation and Getting Started (file://localhost/usr/doc/LDP/LDP/gs/node1.html)?
If Linux is to somehow overtake Win95, an interface to configure PPP should present itself.
Well, overtake in which area? Stability? Ease of use? Possibility of configuring everything to the point of being able to change the source-code if necessary? "I-need-no-steenkin'-documentation"-User friendliness? One button does it all, and forget the tuning, and if it does not work, well, tough luck?
I don't have time to wade through an endless dialog on how to set up PPP.
Then just edit the configuration files. For me, YAST does not cut it --- too slow and too little control over what it does. Luckily, I don't have to use it.
Is there a one-stop doc for setting up ppp? WITH EXAMPLES?
Yes, such things are howto's, man-pages, docs coming with the source-code etc. However, they demand that one reads them, carefully.
How many months will it take for me to simply set up the modem to dial my ISP and log in, and connect me to the internet?
About as long as you need to figure out what you need to do to connect to your ISP and automate it. Unless your ISP uses proprietary protocols, (I *hear tell* AOL is amongst them,) which means it's time to change.
In WinNT and Win95 I'd be done long ago.
Well, then use NiceTry and 95 (3 years past 'best before'). When I made my PPP scripts, it took me a couple of hours. Including connecting, disconnecting, starting programs automatically in the background, redialing etc. IMO that is ok, because I did it for the first time ever and learned many things on the way.
Yast is INCOMPLETE for setting up my modem. It simply isn't finished.
You did look at the version number? 0.89.x or something. That means that the product is not even labelled as stable and halfway complete. Now compare that to NT 4 and Win3.1/95/98 ... YaST says the truth about itself. You can always install the sources and help it along ...
2. Scanner I have an HP scanner. It's recognized by the hardware, and the yast program says it's there, but where's the software to USE the scanner?
You installed the package SANE? (or even better, got yourself a new version and installed it?)
3. Jazz Drive I have an internally installed SCSI Jazz drive ( 1 GB ). It's known to the system as /dev/sdb4 . Do I mount it? Samba it? How do I get my Jazz drive to work with Linux? Can somebody show me the correct mount command?
Of course you mount it. Man mount will give you all the info you need. Samba would be needed to export a drive from a Windows computer. Hint: You may wish to add a line to /etc/fstab ...
I do not sit in front of my Linux box for hours wading through the wrong docs on what to do simply because I don't have the time. I'd really appreciate some simple CLEAR and unabstract docs with examples.
Well, there are HOWTOs and mini-HOWTOs, man-pages, info-pages, documentation (e.g. under /usr/doc/packages), FAQs, books from the LDP, Websites, the support database, ... (most of it under ... surprise ... /usr/doc, that is, if you installed it as you should have done.) And once you manage a task and feel others might want the info you dug out ... you too may write a mini-HOWTO.
What's really surprising is that Yast isn't in Tcl,
Well, guess what, sometimes you have to work without X. Like not enough memory, too slow a computer, HD restraints, using a terminal (keyboard & text-monitor with inbuild modem), working over a slow line (modem), or X is simply broken. YaST works there too. And for yast to work, you don't need Tcl installed either (and a static == big executable is not always what you want).
and that there isn't a GUI interface to configure the modem, or a scanner, or a Jazz drive.
Well, use a GUI editor for the configuration files. SCNR. Now, with GUI this and GUI that nobody'll be able to fix real problems, or any problems at all with a broken X.
And here I am STILL using NT for my email. Sigh.
So ... go and ask detailed questions after you used all the (at least now) obvious sources. -Wolfgang PS: Sorry if I sound harsh, but "I don't WANT to know how it works, it should just work, and I am not going to pay for a sysadmin (i.e. specialist) to do that for me; and if it doesn't work like I 'think' it should, on the first try, then Linux is BAD, BAD, BAD!" is a sore spot with me. IM*N*HO, Linux is for people who have clues and are willing to read documentation and help files or pay someone to do it for them (aka system administrator. An 'automated' distribution (like SuSE) is a really nice thing to have, especially to get you started, but it's no substitute for learning and reading documentation.). If you want 'just to press a button' you can always use Windows, or Macingtosh(sp?) or such OSses. It's your choice, you have to live with it. (And we don't have to defend Linux nowadays. It can pretty well fend for itself.) However a "can someone help me setting up PPP -- which docus should I read, xxx and yyy were not of much help to me, I would like more examples/whatever" (Yes, I need examples, too. But they are aviable.) and "I wish that zzz had/did more aaa, at current, it is unusable for me." (or even "Gee, I made a patch for zzz that adds aaa, anyone want it? It's at URL.") is a different story. -- PGP 2 welcome: Mail me, subject "send PGP-key". If you've nothing at all to hide, you must be boring. Unsolicited Bulk E-Mails: *You* pay for ads you never wanted. Is our economy _so_ weak we have to tolerate SPAMMERS? I guess not. -- To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e
Hi! Does anybody knows of any good sites wher I can download the latest package specially made for suse v 5.2 exept for www.suse.com and www.suse.de -- To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e
Per-Ove Carlsson <peo@ludd.luth.se> wrote:
Hi! Does anybody knows of any good sites wher I can download the latest package specially made for suse v 5.2 exept for
www.suse.com and
www.suse.de
Well ... <A HREF="ftp://ftp.suse.com/suse_update/"><A HREF="ftp://ftp.suse.com/suse_update/</A">ftp://ftp.suse.com/suse_update/</A</A>> is a good way :) Regards W.D.McKinney (Dee) -=- deem@wdm.com No claim to fame, just saved by Grace. -- To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e
Hi, W.D.McKinney wrote:
Well ... <A HREF="ftp://ftp.suse.com/suse_update/"><A HREF="ftp://ftp.suse.com/suse_update/</A">ftp://ftp.suse.com/suse_update/</A</A>> is a good way :)
You could also try <A HREF="ftp://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/linux/suse/"><A HREF="ftp://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/linux/suse/</A">ftp://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/linux/suse/</A</A>> Bye, LenZ -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Lenz Grimmer S.u.S.E. GmbH <A HREF="mailto:grimmer@suse.de">mailto:grimmer@suse.de</A> Gebhardtstrasse 2 <A HREF="http://www.suse.de"><A HREF="http://www.suse.de</A">http://www.suse.de</A</A>> 90762 Fuerth, Germany -- To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e
-----Original Message----- From: owner-suse-linux-e@suse.com [<A HREF="mailto:owner-suse-linux-e@suse.com]On">mailto:owner-suse-linux-e@suse.com]On</A> Behalf Of Wolfgang Weisselberg who really killed the keyboard, whew! Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 1998 8:06 AM To: suse-linux-e@suse.com Subject: Re: [S.u.S.E. Linux] Configuration of three things
Trying to sound a bit more intelligent than the bellowing of an alligator, Wolfgang paddles through the mud, and utters:
Hi!
Trying to kill the keyboard, tschaefe@mindspring.com produced:
I have tried to find simple examples of what to do, but to no avail.
1. PPP
Have you read the PPP HOWTO? (not yet, I see. You should have the HOWTOs installed, then you can look it up under /usr/doc/howto/PPP-HOWTO.gz.) Did you read the ISP-Hookup-HOWTO? Did you read Linux Installation and Getting Started (file://localhost/usr/doc/LDP/LDP/gs/node1.html)?
I waded through some of the ppp docs, and couldn't find many of the files necessary to complete the config. Then I see that the CD was missing something in the installation. So, when I get some time I will agonize through more of the lengthy docs ( somebody tried to kill the keyboard on that one! ) :-)
If Linux is to somehow overtake Win95, an interface to configure PPP should present itself.
Well, overtake in which area? Stability? Ease of use? Possibility of configuring everything to the point of being able to change the source-code if necessary? "I-need-no-steenkin'-documentation"-User friendliness? One button does it all, and forget the tuning, and if it does not work, well, tough luck?
I would not bind user-friendliness with documentation. Docs should be complete, clear, and filled with working examples. Many man-pages in UNIX, not just Linux, are incomplete in their intent of providing a complete communication of what a command or tool should provide. If the functionality of a command or tool or whatever cannot be described in the documentation, how is the end-user ever to understand how to use it? It is simply a matter of poorly written documentation that does not meet the standards of good communication. Good communication gets the message across clearly enough that the receiving end acknowledges they got the message. man-pages and many help docs, including HOW-TOs do not meet the test. One of the most effective ways to communicate the use of a tool is to simply give practical, complete real-world examples. And... Nobody that I know would equate user friendliness with an inability to tune something. That assertion won't compile either. Non-sequitor. I must re-evaluate...I must return to launch point... Are you the Kirk? :-) Later that same day, Wolfgang completes his duck blind, and polishes his favorite rifle:
2. Scanner I have an HP scanner. It's recognized by the hardware, and the yast program says it's there, but where's the software to USE the scanner?
You installed the package SANE? (or even better, got yourself a new version and installed it?)
Thanks, never heard of it. I'll see if I can find it, and give it a try.
3. Jazz Drive I have an internally installed SCSI Jazz drive ( 1 GB ). It's known to the system as /dev/sdb4 . Do I mount it? Samba it? How do I get my Jazz drive to work with Linux? Can somebody show me the correct mount command?
Of course you mount it. Man mount will give you all the info you need.
It doesn't, or why would I ask? ( Don't answer, please, here, hold this... ) Some time that evening after shooting at ducks, Wolfgang howls at the moon:
Samba would be needed to export a drive from a Windows computer. Hint: You may wish to add a line to /etc/fstab ...
I do not sit in front of my Linux box for hours wading through the wrong docs on what to do simply because I don't have the time. I'd really appreciate some simple CLEAR and unabstract docs with examples.
Well, there are HOWTOs and mini-HOWTOs, man-pages, info-pages, documentation (e.g. under /usr/doc/packages), FAQs, books from the LDP, Websites, the support database, ... (most of it under ... surprise ... /usr/doc, that is, if you installed it as you should have done.)
And once you manage a task and feel others might want the info you dug out ... you too may write a mini-HOWTO.
What's really surprising is that Yast isn't in Tcl,
Well, guess what, sometimes you have to work without X. Like not enough memory, too slow a computer, HD restraints, using a terminal (keyboard & text-monitor with inbuild modem), working over a slow line (modem), or X is simply broken. YaST works there too. And for yast to work, you don't need Tcl installed either (and a static == big executable is not always what you want).
and that there isn't a GUI interface to configure the modem, or a scanner, or a Jazz drive.
Well, use a GUI editor for the configuration files. SCNR.
Now, with GUI this and GUI that nobody'll be able to fix real problems, or any problems at all with a broken X.
And here I am STILL using NT for my email. Sigh.
So ... go and ask detailed questions after you used all the (at least now) obvious sources.
Thanks Wolfgang. I wouldn't have made it without ya!
-Wolfgang
PS: Sorry if I sound harsh, but "I don't WANT to know how it works, it should just work, and I am not going to pay for a sysadmin (i.e. specialist) to do that for me; and if it doesn't work like I 'think' it should, on the first try, then Linux is BAD, BAD, BAD!" is a sore spot with me.
Who ask YOU in the first place? Are you lord of the list?
IM*N*HO, Linux is for people who have clues and are willing to read documentation and help files or pay someone to do it for them (aka system administrator. An 'automated' distribution (like SuSE) is a really nice thing to have, especially to get you started, but it's no substitute for learning and reading documentation.). If you want 'just to press a button' you can always use Windows, or Macingtosh(sp?) or such OSses. It's your choice, you have to live with it. (And we don't have to defend Linux nowadays. It can pretty well fend for itself.)
Thanks for the enlightenment. It's people like you who perpetuate the home-brew image of Linux, to keep it a rebel's OS. If it got a little easier to use then you'd feel like the game is over. Then you wouldn't have anyone around to post condescending messages to, to somehow give yourself the impression you are smarter than the average guy. That's OK, I see how it is now.
However a "can someone help me setting up PPP -- which docus should I read, xxx and yyy were not of much help to me, I would like more examples/whatever" (Yes, I need examples, too. But they are aviable.) and "I wish that zzz had/did more aaa, at current, it is unusable for me." (or even "Gee, I made a patch for zzz that adds aaa, anyone want it? It's at URL.") is a different story.
Again, thanks so much for the wisdom here. How was my request different from what you describe? Sorry if my request failed your scoring. Please feel free to kiss my ass! Thanks! Tim Tim Schaefer tschaefe@mindspring.com www.inxutil.com
-- PGP 2 welcome: Mail me, subject "send PGP-key". If you've nothing at all to hide, you must be boring. Unsolicited Bulk E-Mails: *You* pay for ads you never wanted. Is our economy _so_ weak we have to tolerate SPAMMERS? I guess not. -- To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e
-- To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e
On Wed, 13 May 1998, Tim Schaefer wrote: Tim's statement: ->If Linux is to somehow overtake Win95, an interface to configure PPP ->should present itself. My response: ** It was never behind so your proposition doesn't apply. Another thinking mistake you made is when you mistook "foolproof" with technical advance. Linux is exactly what computers are all about: Complicated instruments to do specific tasks. Computers being simple and to be used by everyone is sheer manufacturer propaganda serving only one purpose: Adding zero's to their banc accounts. Windows 95/NT and everything that will hopefully not appear in the future is exactly what computers are not about: Clicking buttons and putting your brain in park mode. By trying to be "simple" they have become exactly the opposite: Once you get an interface to configure something you get lost in sub-windows and sub, sub, sub menu's that lead you deeper and deeper into the darkness. Try to troubleshoot such a configuration method! One looses every feeling of place and space and doesn't know how to follow its own steps back to the point where the mistake has been made because the only solution after a mistake is to hit "cancel", leave the configuration interface and start all over again. I know what I'm talking about because I used Win 95 and NT, got rid of it to reinstall Win 3.11 and ended up using Linux after 5 months of preparation and endurance. Since I had to reinstall NT twice a month it took me each time 2 days to put everything back on the disk and configure it. With Windows 3.11 it takes me half a day (had 1 reinstall in 5 months) and with Linux only 1 day...for the next x years! Furthermore, the first time I wanted to hook 95/NT to Internet it took me 1 week to figure out what kind of simple data I had to enter in which simple configuration interface because understanding what a pop3 or a SMTP account names or DNS 1 & 2 name server are is not really something you want to bother novices with if you're a "simple configuration interface" that's taking itself serious. And since you're complaining about unclear explainations in Linux, try to use context sensitive help within a M$ config interface and try to get an answer on "what's a DNS name server". You'll get something stupid like "this is your ISP's DNS name server". This kind of "thanks-but-no-thanks" sort of help I noticed throughout the M$ products which gave them at least a bit of credit: It wasn't an accidental mistake, it's company politics. Tim's statement: ->I would not bind user-friendliness with documentation. Docs should be ->complete, clear, and filled with working examples. Many man-pages in ->UNIX, not just Linux, are incomplete in their intent of providing a ->complete communication of what a command or tool should provide. If ->the functionality of a command or tool or whatever cannot be described ->in the documentation, how is the end-user ever to understand how to ->use it? -> ->It is simply a matter of poorly written documentation that does not ->meet the standards of good communication. Good communication gets the ->message across clearly enough that the receiving end acknowledges they ->got the message. man-pages and many help docs, including HOW-TO's do ->not meet the test. One of the most effective ways to communicate the ->use of a tool is to simply give practical, complete real-world ->examples. My response: ** I fully agree here. I found this also to be an annoying problem, which could be solved if the writer of such a document would take time to put himself in the novice shoes. On the other hand, for some very advanced users, it's very difficult to come down to beginner level because they're dealing with such complicated subject(s) it's almost impossible. Try to make a surgeon explain to somebody strange to the subject how to "simply" avoid cardiac arrest when doing a heart transplantation. Tim's statement: ->3. Jazz Drive ->I have an internally installed SCSI Jazz drive (1 GB ). It's known to ->the system as /dev/sdb4 . Do I mount it? Samba it? How do I get my ->Jazz drive to work with Linux? Can somebody show me the correct mount ->command? <snip> -> Wolfgang's response: ->Of course you mount it. Man mount will give you all the info you need. -> Tim's statement: ->It doesn't, or why would I ask? <snip> My response: ** Sorry, but I don't understand why not!? I just checked the man page on the mount command and it is explained pretty clearly why you have to, and how you have to mount it. You're being a bit of a pain here - which will get worse later in your mail - giving me the impression of being out to complain about things anyway. Tim's statement: ->I do not sit in front of my Linux box for hours wading through the ->wrong docs on what to do simply because I don't have the time. <snip> My response: ** We're coming to the core problem here, I think. I'm afraid you're making a thinking mistake again. You take the hard/software and then you try to force it into fitting your problem. The question you have to pose yourself is "what you want to do or get done". Then you get a list of possible solutions and for each one of them you figure out if it can fit your needs. Than you start eliminating (not the users on this list but the alternatives on yours ;-) and you get the solution that comes the closest to solving your problem. You don't have the time and you already own a NT box!? What are you doing with Linux in the first place? NT seems to work for you because you were able to send this mail and thus configure the DialUp...keep it and go on with your work. You need an UNIX/Linux type of OS? Then be prepared to do something for it. If you know how to drive a car, it doesn't make you a good truck driver. At this point I would like to ask a question though, because I just checked your site on which you state to be using Solaris x86 next to Windows. This doesn't make you knew to UNIX/Linux, so why is it you're having those problems? Or did you spend x dollars with a lot of zero's and bought the computer with Solaris already installed...? Figure out what you want, figure out what you want... Tim's statement: ->And here I am STILL using NT for my email. Sigh. <snip> My response: ** None, because I don't understand anymore what you want. Your NT box works, so what are you complaining about? Wolfgang's response: ->PS: Sorry if I sound harsh,but "I don't WANT to know how it works, it ->should just work, and I am not going to pay for a sysadmin (i.e. ->specialist) to do that for me; and if it doesn't work like I 'think' ->it should, on the first try, then Linux is BAD, BAD, BAD!" is a sore ->spot with me. <snip> Tim's statement: ->Who ask YOU in the first place? Are you lord of the list? <snip> My response: ** Here's where things start getting out of control. The mere fact of posting a mail in this list is a question that can generate answers. I don't understand the reason for this aggressive attitude. Wolfgang's response: ->It's your choice, you have to live with it. (And we don't have to defend Linux ->nowadays. It can pretty well fend for itself.) <snip> Tim's statement: ->Thanks for the enlightenment. It's people like you who perpetuate the ->home-brew image of Linux, to keep it a rebel's OS. If it got a little ->easier to use then you'd feel like the game is over. Then you wouldn't ->have anyone around to post condescending messages to, to somehow give ->yourself the impression you are smarter than the average guy. That's ->OK, I see how it is now. <snip> My response: ** It's getting even worse here. Talk to us Tim... What are the problems bothering you...?? Tim's statement: ->Again, thanks so much for the wisdom here. How was my request ->different from what you describe? Sorry if my request failed your ->scoring. Please feel free to kiss my ass! My response: ** Here it completely degenerates. If you have frustrations get yourself a bag with sand and put it next to your office table but don't get that much out of control on this list. Internet is very indirect and the lack of personal contact might give the impression that everything is tolerated. Well it's not. Please, keep this in mind. At this point however I think your solution would be to forget everything about Linux. You'll save yourself a lot of nerves and me time that I spent on answering this. Zoki. /_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ ZOKI, Images Creation d'images & traitement numerique Image creation & digital tweaking \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\ Due to various Micro$oft moves against basic decency and common sense, I accept - with a strong protest - MS Office file formats (Word 2 & 6, Excel 3, 4, 5 & 7) but urge you to stop using them. Alternatives exist! Like ApplixWare under Linux... This message is brought to you by Linux (2.0.31) and Pine, a text based UNIX e-mail client... % Fin de message / End of message % -- To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e
Low! Trying to kill the keyboard, tschaefe@mindspring.com produced:
Trying to sound a bit more intelligent than the bellowing of an alligator, Wolfgang paddles through the mud, and utters:
Well, I don't mind how I sound to some people. To most your 'alligator' will have an IQ above 2 digits. Before the decimal point, that is. [snip a lot of good pointers to information. I guess most readers don't need them repeated.]
I waded through some of the ppp docs, and couldn't find many of the files necessary to complete the config. Then I see that the CD was missing something in the installation. So, when I get some time I will agonize through more of the lengthy docs ( somebody tried to kill the keyboard on that one! ) :-)
The PPP HowTo should have more than everything you need, in painstaking detail. It also points to a lot of other sources. That's why it is named HOW TO.
I would not bind user-friendliness with documentation. Docs should be complete, clear, and filled with working examples. Many man-pages in UNIX, not just Linux, are incomplete in their intent of providing a complete communication of what a command or tool should provide.
I think you misunderstood man pages. Man pages often are an overview over a program, the first point to look. Many programs are backed with other documentation, may it be HowTos, a doc-directory (or html- directory) included with the sources (with SuSE you'd find them in /usr/doc/packages/ if you installed the binary), an info-file (try info info) or many, FAQs or even real books you may buy. May buy? Yes, for example sendmail is a free programs, but to really be able to use them you need to understand them, and somehow I fail to see someone reading 500 printed pages as a man page.
If the functionality of a command or tool or whatever cannot be described in the documentation, how is the end-user ever to understand how to use it?
By looking at the *correct* documentation. And don't claim there is none for PPP. Also you again fall into the Windows trap. Many of the free programs (free not as in free beer, but as in freely distributable source) are *not* written with an 'end-user' in mind who has to pay lots, but with oneself or other programmers in mind. That means the software is of high quality, but not neccessarily usable by people who don't read.
It is simply a matter of poorly written documentation that does not meet the standards of good communication. Good communication gets the message across clearly enough that the receiving end acknowledges they got the message. man-pages and many help docs, including HOW-TOs do not meet the test. One of the most effective ways to communicate the use of a tool is to simply give practical, complete real-world examples.
You are heartily invited to add to any and all documentation or even write some (like HowTos) yourself. Most any package maintainer and programmer is glad to have help. Especially with unfunny things like documentation. (Oh, did I say that most of those people do the programming for fun, in their own free time?) As for examples ... see HowTos.
And...
Nobody that I know would equate user friendliness with an inability to tune something. That assertion won't compile either. Non-sequitor. I must re-evaluate...I must return to launch point... Are you the Kirk?
:-)
You obviously never used Windows and though it to be remotely user-friendly. And no, I am not (a|the|any) Kirk. However, you seem to be out of memory up there. You really need to open your windows and activate swapspace. :-)
2. Scanner
Oh, you also might want to check out <A HREF="http://www.tummy.com/"><A HREF="http://www.tummy.com/</A">http://www.tummy.com/</A</A>>.
3. Jazz Drive
Of course you mount it. Man mount will give you all the info you need.
It doesn't, or why would I ask?
It does. However, it assumes basic knowledge. I mean, you *have* to assume some knowledge, like what a keyboard is, that you know the command man, how to type a command once you know it's format and spelling, basic facts about the directory tree (because why else would you need/know about mount?) etc.
( Don't answer, please, here, hold this... )
Some time that evening after shooting at ducks, Wolfgang howls at the moon:
Be careful there. You ought to know what my name means and what its part might hint at. [snip 41 lines of ballast. One should tell these newbies that there IS a delete key, after all. But he is windowized, so don't be too hard on him ... the first time.]
Thanks Wolfgang. I wouldn't have made it without ya!
Oh, how sweet of you. I never met a kinder, gentler, more considerate person. It's been a pleasure to see how people can look up things in documentation and then ask friendly only about the difficult, unexplained parts, clearly indicating their level of knowledge. Such posts are really the shining examples of the whole 'net.
Who ask YOU in the first place? Are you lord of the list?
You did. If you didn't want to ask me, then you should have said so. Or used a list I am not subscribed to.
Thanks for the enlightenment. It's people like you who perpetuate the home-brew image of Linux, to keep it a rebel's OS. If it got a little easier to use then you'd feel like the game is over. Then you wouldn't have anyone around to post condescending messages to, to somehow give yourself the impression you are smarter than the average guy. That's OK, I see how it is now.
I don't have to 'give [myself or anyone else] the impression'. You know, amongst my faults there is no 'not self-confident' listed. However, I pity you for finding that you might be beaten in _one_ _single_ aspect and *then* proving everyone else that you are not able to write a good, toasty, skilled flame, either. You, sir, have my deepest pity, and I shall pray to some of the nastier gods to teach you how to write a flame without having to resort to the last option of evil-doers and honorless men: ad hominem attacks. That means: attacking the person instead of the opinions, kind sir, in case your dictionary does not contain it either. As for your sudden rush to defend the 'honor' od Linux as a non-rebel OS: Kind sir, it never was. It was just a student trying to get to know the MMU of his 80386. And also, dear sir, once you defended it, you backstab it, claiming it to be a 'rebel OS' ... such betrayal is really a sign of the truth and honesty of ones claims. And, to repell your last still standing argument: No, kind sir, I don't mind easy ways to manage your computer. If there was a programming language called RPM (Read Programmers Mind) I would be the strongesd advokate. Similar for a program/tool that'd RUM (Read Users Mind). However, until these programs exist, I will defend the most usable way to configure your programs. And up to now, none was a graphical tool. Sure, it may be easier for some, but once you need to change something that's not in them, you are far better of with configuration files. And trust me, that happens more often then you might belive. [snip idea to ask for usable docu, naming what one had read; describing problems exactly or even patching things]
Again, thanks so much for the wisdom here. How was my request different from what you describe? Sorry if my request failed your scoring. Please feel free to kiss my ass!
You, kind sir, whined. You demanded. You threatened, at least indirectly, to return to NT (and again, go there, kind sir, if you must. By all means, go there. Nobody wll stop you. But decide NOW which way to take.). You compared ("But that piece of shit is browner than Linux") ... or didn't you mention NT, where everything was so easy? Oh, you proved you can do better. Just remember how you asked about which software was aviable for your scanner ... that was the right way. And now you, sir, freak out because you've been told to read your documentation, not just one page, no, many pages. It seems you know not the first thing about UNIX, or how did you manage not to know anything about needing moutpoints? That's like saying in the DOS world "But what are these strange c: d: and e: for? And why doesn't format work when I do not type them? And when I type them, they delete all my files!" You really need a good book about UNIX in general, and don't say you don't have the money. You pay more for NT. So go out (after reading the apropriate HowTo, FAQ and SDB-page) and buy one. Read it. Understand it. Then come back here and ask thy questions. And if something does not work, do thyself a favor, kind sir, and do not just say 'it doesn't work (whine whine)', but copy and paste and write the exact error message. There are books found under /usr/doc/LDP/, especially /usr/doc/LDP/LDP/gs/, which you, kind sir, are to read to from the front to the back until you understood it, to be released of your sins. And now, since their presence has been announced, don't claim you could not know. As far as your kind behind is in question, kind sir, let down your pant... oh you already did in this post. Hmmm. Ok, take sandpaper (the really grainy one at 80 ... no, say 30 to 50, they are much more fun) and use it as toilet paper for the next few weeks. Oh, and I require a test-kiss performed by yourself on your kind behind. Mpeg will do fine. [my sig snipped] You, kind sir, seem to be mentally dearanged that you need to quote my signature whilst you have nothing to comment on it. I pity you, deeply and sincerely. -Wolfgang PS: May you live in interesting times. Oops, you already do. Ok, then may you live with whatever choice you make. (Hehe, I am really cruel today.) -- PGP 2 welcome: Mail me, subject "send PGP-key". If you've nothing at all to hide, you must be boring. Unsolicited Bulk E-Mails: *You* pay for ads you never wanted. Is our economy _so_ weak we have to tolerate SPAMMERS? I guess not. -- To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e
Tim Schaefer wrote:
I have tried to find simple examples of what to do, but to no avail.
1. PPP
If Linux is to somehow overtake Win95, an interface to configure PPP should present itself. I don't have time to wade through an endless dialog on how to set up PPP. Is there a one-stop doc for setting up ppp? WITH EXAMPLES? How many months will it take for me to simply set up the modem to dial my ISP and log in, and connect me to the internet? In WinNT and Win95 I'd be done long ago. Yast is INCOMPLETE for setting up my modem. It simply isn't finished.
YaST supports PPP starting with Release 5.2 of our Distriibution. However this Feature is quiete buggy and not very well documented. We are working on this and hopefully have a new version of YaST/suseppp available late this week.
2. Scanner
I have an HP scanner. It's recognized by the hardware, and the yast program says it's there, but where's the software to USE the scanner?
The Software is SANE. It includes a nice X interface 'xscanimage', which you can use to access your scanner. You can also use GIMP togehter with this interface topostprocess your scans.
3. Jazz Drive
I have an internally installed SCSI Jazz drive ( 1 GB ). It's known to the system as /dev/sdb4 . Do I mount it? Samba it? How do I get my Jazz drive to work with Linux? Can somebody show me the correct mount command?
You can use your Jazz drive like a regular harddisk. I assume sdb4 is a FAT partition. I don't have a Jazz here, but IOMEGA ships the ZIP disks with a FAT16 preformated partition 4, maybe the same with Jazz disks. If so, you can mount it the following way: # create a mountpoint mkdir /Jazz # mount it mount /dev/sda4 /Jazz # dowhateveryouwant # unmount it umount /Jazz
I do not sit in front of my Linux box for hours wading through the wrong docs on what to do simply because I don't have the time. I'd really appreciate some simple CLEAR and unabstract docs with examples. What's really surprising is that Yast isn't in Tcl, and that there isn't a GUI interface to configure the modem, or a scanner, or a Jazz drive. And here I am STILL using NT for my email. Sigh.
Have a look into the O'Reilly nutshell books. They are very clear and include good instructions even for newcomers. Ciao, BB -- Bodo Bauer S.u.S.E., LLC fon +1-510-835 7873 bb@suse.de 458 Santa Clara Avenue fax +1-510-835 7875 <A HREF="http://www.suse.com"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com</A">http://www.suse.com</A</A>> Oakland CA, 94610 USA -- To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e
Thanks! The docs for mount do not show that "mkdir /Jazz" or any mkdir command should be used. Your simple examples should help. And thanks to others who emailed me off-line. Thanks! Tim Schaefer tschaefe@mindspring.com www.inxutil.com -- To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e
Tim Schaefer wrote:
Thanks!
The docs for mount do not show that "mkdir /Jazz" or any mkdir command should be used. Your simple examples should help.
OK, but they say you need to have a mount-point. This is nothing else than a directory. And as you have a additional, kind of special disk, I would say a new dir in / is appropriate... Ciao, BB -- Bodo Bauer S.u.S.E., LLC fon +1-510-835 7873 bb@suse.de 458 Santa Clara Avenue fax +1-510-835 7875 <A HREF="http://www.suse.com"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com</A">http://www.suse.com</A</A>> Oakland CA, 94610 USA -- To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e
-----Original Message----- From: owner-suse-linux-e@suse.com [<A HREF="mailto:owner-suse-linux-e@suse.com]On">mailto:owner-suse-linux-e@suse.com]On</A> Behalf Of Bodo Bauer Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 1998 9:55 PM To: suse-linux-e@suse.com Subject: Re: [S.u.S.E. Linux] Configuration of three things
Tim Schaefer wrote:
Thanks!
The docs for mount do not show that "mkdir /Jazz" or any mkdir command should be used. Your simple examples should help.
OK, but they say you need to have a mount-point. This is nothing else than a directory. And as you have a additional, kind of special disk, I would say a new dir in / is appropriate...
Sorry, but I would never infer that a directory should be created on one disk in order to mount another. There is nothing intuitive about using mkdir to complete this process. On some other planet maybe, but from where I come from if it isn't in the instructions, why would I expect something else? And the bigger question is WHY would you create a directory on one drive in order to mount a different drive? Sorry to be logical, but in this case nothing else would be right. :-) Documentation should be complete, clear, and practical, with real world examples. I wouldn't expect you to shine your shoes in order to ride a bicycle. What would be the logic in that? Or try a favorite question we use here in America: Did you walk to work or bring your lunch? Illogical, non-related, and utter nonsense. Thanks, Tim
Ciao, BB -- Bodo Bauer S.u.S.E., LLC fon +1-510-835 7873 bb@suse.de 458 Santa Clara Avenue fax +1-510-835 7875 <A HREF="http://www.suse.com"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com</A">http://www.suse.com</A</A>> Oakland CA, 94610 USA -- To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e
-- To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e
Tim Schaefer wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE> Sorry, but I would never infer that a directory should be created <BR>on one disk in order to mount another. There is nothing intuitive <BR>about using mkdir to complete this process.</BLOCKQUOTE> Unix treats partitions as devices. In dos the directory tree is similar, but there is no point of origin really. In unix, / is the peak of the mountain, and all other filesystems are mounted within /. Your / partition may only be 50 megs, so thinking of it containing the 2 gigs worth of filesystems you have mounted may not seem logical, but there it is. Usually you will have seperate partitions for /usr, /opt and /home, although some people find this confusing and just make one big partition. There are definite advantages to using multiple partitions, but fstab is daunting enough when you've never been near a unix box before, so we won't fault anyone with a 4 gig root partition (and I'm not picking on anyone, just generalizing).So, if you are using multiple partitions, or whether you just need to mount a cdrom or a floppy, you need a mount point for the device in /, or you won't be able to access it because linux is great and all, but it doesn't automagically find devices, it needs to be told where they are. So, linux could see your jaz drive, but without a mount point there wasn't a path to access it from. <BR>Sounds like you got a couple problems solved the last day. I'm envious. I remember when I first got into linux how I really felt a sense of accomplishment everytime I overcame a new hurdle. If you are patient the rewards are great, and sweeter because you had to work for them. <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>On some other planet <BR>maybe, but from where I come from if it isn't in the instructions, <BR>why would I expect something else? And the bigger question is <BR>WHY would you create a directory on one drive in order to mount <BR>a different drive? Sorry to be logical, but in this case nothing else would be right. :-) Documentation should be complete, clear, and practical, with real <BR>world examples. I wouldn't expect you to shine your shoes in order <BR>to ride a bicycle. What would be the logic in that? Or try a <BR>favorite question we use here in America: Did you walk to work or <BR>bring your lunch? Illogical, non-related, and utter nonsense. Thanks, Tim
Ciao, <BR>> BB <BR>>-- <BR>>Bodo Bauer S.u.S.E., LLC fon +1-510-835 7873 <BR>>bb@suse.de 458 Santa Clara Avenue fax +1-510-835 7875 <BR>><A HREF="http://www.suse.com"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com</A">http://www.suse.com</A</A>> Oakland CA, 94610 USA <BR>>-- <BR>>To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with <BR>>this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e <BR>> <BR>-- <BR>To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with <BR>this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e</BLOCKQUOTE>
<PRE>-- -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GCS d--- s++:++ a32 c++ UL++ P+ L++>+++ E--- W+>++ N- o-- K- w O? M-- V- PS+ PE+ Y-- PGP- t+ 5+ X+ R tv+ b++ DI+ D+++ G e h+ r* y+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------</PRE>
Good news!, Bodo, great going on the response..true style I have a rather offkey RFI, since you've cut to the chase:I want to run RegClean on my msw95 drive. w95 thinks that my linux drive is non-operating and shuts down the attempt to run regedit.exe can i(since i use lilo)unplug the linux drive...run reedit(regclean)then plug linux back in/ #try it you'll like it no, i'm trying to stray online is all thanks for the webspace and, helloeveryone Bodo wrote:
Tim Schaefer wrote:
I have tried to find simple examples of what to do, but to no avail.
1. PPP
for setting up my modem. It simply isn't finished.
YaST supports PPP starting with Release 5.2 of our Distriibution. However this Feature is quiete buggy and not very well documented. We are working on this and hopefully have a new version of YaST/suseppp available late this week. where's the software to USE the scanner? The Software is SANE. It includes a nice X interface 'xscanimage', which you can use to access your scanner. You can also use GIMP togehter with this interface topostprocess your scans. If so, you can mount it the following way: # create a mountpoint mkdir /Jazz # mount it mount /dev/sda4 /Jazz # dowhateveryouwant # unmount it umount /Jazz
email. Sigh.
Have a look into the O'Reilly nutshell books. They are very clear and include good instructions even for newcomers. Ciao, BB -- please send email to majordomo@suse.com -- To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e
vic wrote:
Good news!, Bodo, great going on the response..true style I have a rather offkey RFI, since you've cut to the chase:I want to run RegClean on my msw95 drive.
w95 thinks that my linux drive is non-operating and shuts down the attempt to run regedit.exe
can i(since i use lilo)unplug the linux drive...run reedit(regclean)then plug linux back in/
Sorry, but I can't very much to this question. I'm not a 95 user, and I have no idea, what regedit is about. It sounds like does something with the registry, but I never had a look in the 95 registry... But sure, you can unplug the linux drive, do whatever you want, and then reconnect it. Maybe you have to boot linux with a floppy the first time and reinstall lilo, but the linux system itself should continue to work... Ciao, BB -- Bodo Bauer S.u.S.E., LLC fon +1-510-835 7873 bb@suse.de 458 Santa Clara Avenue fax +1-510-835 7875 <A HREF="http://www.suse.com"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com</A">http://www.suse.com</A</A>> Oakland CA, 94610 USA -- To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e
participants (10)
-
bb＠suse.com -
deem＠wdm.com -
grimmer＠suse.de -
peo＠ludd.luth.se -
satan＠nfinity.com -
tajcshann＠att.net -
tschaefe＠mindspring.com -
vhearn＠wenet.net -
weissel＠jupiter.ph-cip.uni-koeln.de -
zokiphoto＠magic.fr