On 8/13/2010 11:09 AM, Michael S. Dunsaavage wrote:

On 8/13/2010 10:38 AM, Radule Šoškić wrote:

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Hi list users,

Googleing for an old post of mine, I stumbled upon a story that I posted to a mailing list six years ago. The story was on an authentic, real life experience in the line of popular windows vs linux discussions of that time.

It was 2004, the season of SuSE Pro 9.0.

I remember I received a lot of private mails off the list, from people finding the story very interesting. The story was in favor of linux so much that quite a number of them decided to try and even completely convert to linux after reading it. The story still can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com/full-disclosure@lists.netsys.com/msg13461.html, for the interested ones (beware, it's quite long) Let's give that old horn a toot why don't we?

...

I am afraid I couldn't write such a story today, certainly not with the same amount of pro-linux enthusiasm.

Thus starts the troll rant

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Six years ago I used to advocate linux among my windows-using friends quite a lot. I was not just plain enthusiastic but very successful in that regard too. Contrary to then popular belief, linux installations (suse in particular) were rock-solid stable and reliable, secure, yet simple to teach, learn, and everyday use.

Is it so today? I am afraid not, at least at this particular moment in time.

It's not? Open Office is having less problems with MS formats. Lots of things are point and click now. Lost of distros are very well at being runnable out of the box. OS included.

...

The rock-solid appearance is pretty much ruined. I experienced frequent dolphin crashes, plasma multi activity setup crashes, desktop effects crashes, device notifier crashes, etc... Yes, I admit I am at factory repo, but I was always at a factory grade repo, from the days of 7.x on.I even have crashes that lock up my comp in such a way that I can not ssh into it to clean the mess up. Kiss goodbye to the "linux-need-not-rebooting-ever" myth!!! All these locks happen on random, but on regular basis. And random enough that they can not be easily reproduced, so I simply don't know what to report most of the time. So you're complaining about factory repos, constantly in flux, crashing. Even though w/ more developers and now and more sophistication? Of course things will bork. That's why it says experimental use at your own risk all over the place.

About reporting: Here's a thought.........ask detailed questions with hardware specifics. Note the time of the crash and maybe browse the logs and see if something posted before it happened. Detail what you were doing before the crash, maybe it can be narrowed down.

...

How about this: Dolphin just plainly disappears in front of my eyes, while not even having focus on its window!!! The worst thing is that I've got used to it, during six-year slow and steady process of criteria degradation (frog-cooking effect). It was only reading this old story that reminded me that it had not been always like that.

Also, the simplicity is gone. With KDE4, so many new concepts and layers of complexity have been introduced. Every day on this list I witness a lot of confusion and lack of understanding of these concepts among users. Even the most experienced ones are often having troubles to get the point. How can one expect a total newbie to find his/her way through it? Solid base of GUI elements built up to a desktop environment in a consistent and intuitively comprehensible way is not there any more. Desktop, desktop icons, right-click, left-click, drag-and-drop, and all other well known GUI paradigms are now undergoing major redefinition process. Everything is being re-ingeneered, bottom up. Too many things doesn't work as expected, or the way they used to work. Users are forced to develop "new intuition". Yes yes a KDE4 rant. Imagine that. I just bought a laptop w/ Windows 7 on it, and I tell you (not a knock) that KDE4 looks and works quite like Win 7. Right down to widgets on the desktop.

Today, I admit, I am reluctant to recommend opensuse to any of windows7 users. I don't do it happily any more. With opensuse of today, they simply have so many troubles that I can not help them with, and so many questions that I can not answer. Then maybe turn to some people, like this list, that can answer them. No one knows everything, I've asked more than my fair amount of questions on here, got answers. I help when I can too.

Ok, security is still there. At least, in regard of computer viruses and malware. But, who cares for security when mere usability is in question? Besides, frankly speaking, they are remarkably more secure with their Win7 today then they were with WinXP back in 2004. That's why MS just released a few emergency patches for old exploits still there in Win 7. One reason less to go converting. (Which leaves us with the total of zero, I'm afraid.) Then don't be an evangelist.

On my own, I am completely on linux/opensuse/kde4 side, without a doubt. All my comps, home and office, are linux, and that will not change soon. Still, a little critical thinking can't do any harm, I guess. Hope the list can bear this much rambling without starting another religious war. Thanks for reading, anyway.

No, critical thinking can't do any harm. But being a troll can. Which is what you are.

With one notable exception, I recommend PcLinuxOs. Altho it claims to run KDE 4.4.5, it doesn't exhibit the goofyness that Kubuntu does. I haven't tried a SuSE with KDE 4.x, as I have read so much about it here. PcLOs installs cleanly, it does internet and email without fuss, it plays music and videos without fuss--contrast that with SuSE!--its Synaptic Package Manager is nice. The only exception I found is that it does not recognize a floppy disk. And the format of its fstab is something I don't understand, so I can't fix it. (I wanted to install an old disk-based Win95 era program in Wine, but couldn't.) The only other downside I find, is that there is no mailing list, only fora. They might as well not bother! (Yes, they say there's a mailing list-- the last entry I found was 3 years ago.) --doug -- Blessed are the peacemakers...for they shall be shot at from both sides. --A.M. Greeley -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 8/13/2010 6:17 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Doug [08-13-10 14:15]: ... 105 lines deleted

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With one notable exception, I recommend PcLinuxOs.

In an openSUSE support forum?

/snip/

Run your PCLinusOS, be happy and support them in their missing lists, for your comments here are also trolling, ie: not contributing!

I must disagree. I _am_ contributing to Mr. Radule Soskic, who was quoted by Mr. M. Dunsavaage. A small piece follows: (Quote)

Six years ago I used to advocate linux among my windows-using friends quite a lot. I was not just plain enthusiastic but very successful in that regard too. Contrary to then popular belief, linux installations (suse in particular) were rock-solid stable and reliable, secure, yet simple to teach, learn, and everyday use.

Is it so today? I am afraid not, at least at this particular moment in time.

The rock-solid appearance is pretty much ruined. I experienced frequent dolphin crashes, plasma multi activity setup crashes, desktop effects crashes, device notifier crashes, etc...

(Unquote) I suggested that there is at least one Linux distro that seems to be solid and doesn't have a lot of what he was complaining about, and I named it and said why, as well as admitting that it's not perfect. (What is?) And yes, I am at least temporarily out of the SuSE loop, but having been in it for quite a few years, I keep my ear to the ground, and hope for good news. From everything I have read about version 11.3, the news is _not_ good, what with dumping of programs and formats that a lot of people like and want, in favor of what apparently only a few developers would like to play with. I think they're playing with themselves! I pointed out that there seems to be a way that KDE 4.4.5 (at least) can be tamed, and made palatable, even if SuSE and Kubuntu haven't decided to go that way. I also noted that PcLOs (and some of the other distros I've looked at, including even Puppy Linux) have no trouble rendering sound, right out of the box. The last post from the SuSE list, 20 minutes ago, has "Sound problems" as a subject. For what it's worth, I might still be running 11.1 if the everlasting sound problems had ever been addressed and solved, over God only knows how many releases. I do not put any blame on anyone here--the good people of this list tried hard to help, but apparently that wasn't enough. Perhaps I'm just not geek enough to understand. And yes, I'm now seated in front of the hated (by some) Windows machine. It just happened to be handy. I have Linux on the machine 4 feet to my left, and I could be writing this there. On the same mail program. And no, I'm not crazy about Win7, either, but _it_ will not only play sound, it will run AutoCadLT. And WordPerfect, which I still think is superior to Open Office, altho not by a whole lot. BTW, Mr. Shanahan, I _did_ contribute something else useful to this list only a few weeks ago; at least it was useful to someone, who said thank you to me. Nothing world-shaking--I'm not geek enough. But useful. --doug -- Blessed are the peacemakers...for they shall be shot at from both sides. --A.M. Greeley -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 8/13/2010 11:31 PM, Michael S. Dunsaavage wrote:

On 8/13/2010 9:28 PM, Doug wrote:

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From everything I have read about version 11.3, the news is _not_ good, what with dumping of programs and formats that a lot of people like and want, in favor of what apparently only a few developers would like to play with. I think they're playing with themselves!

So everything you read? So you haven't tried it at all even on a Live CD to see if any of this is true or FUD or plain misrepresentation? Well I'm glad someone believes everything they read.

This is the first I've heard that SuSE had a live CD. I will certainly try it. --doug -- Blessed are the peacemakers...for they shall be shot at from both sides. --A.M. Greeley -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 21:28, Doug wrote:

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Six years ago I used to advocate linux among my windows-using friends quite a lot. I was not just plain enthusiastic but very successful in that regard too. Contrary to then popular belief, linux installations (suse in particular) were rock-solid stable and reliable, secure, yet simple to teach, learn, and everyday use.

Is it so today? I am afraid not, at least at this particular moment in time.

...

The rock-solid appearance is pretty much ruined. I experienced frequent dolphin crashes, plasma multi activity setup crashes, desktop effects crashes, device notifier crashes, etc...

(Unquote)

I suggested that there is at least one Linux distro that seems to be solid and doesn't have a lot of what he was complaining about, and I named it and said why, as well as admitting that it's not perfect. (What is?)

And yes, I am at least temporarily out of the SuSE loop, but having been in it for quite a few years, I keep my ear to the ground, and hope for good news.

From everything I have read about version 11.3, the news is _not_ good, what with dumping of programs and formats that a lot of people like and want, in favor of what apparently only a few developers would like to play with.  I think they're playing with themselves!

But I think that is a linux-wide problem. KDE 4 is crap and we all know it. What other distro besides RHEL/CentOS is shipping a working (3.5) version of KDE today? None, and only RedHat does it due to their release cycles. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 8/14/2010 12:01 AM, Rajko M. wrote:

On Friday 13 August 2010 22:34:23 Andrew Joakimsen wrote:

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But I think that is a linux-wide problem. KDE 4 is crap and we all know it. Who is we?

I know I'm not there.

KDE3 was good, but a bit outdated. Better then Windows XP, but underdog for anything that came after. For utilitarian user that values what computers do, not how nice is user interface XP like GUI is fine, but majority that wants GUI presentable to their friends will disagree.

When KDE 4 first came out, I admit it was flaky, so I went w/ factory repos. What did I have to lose? I did the daily updates for it and I saw daily, literally, the more solid it got and more useable it got. And now I can get around in KDE 4 no problem, I'm used to it's quirkiness, which was just quirks til I understood it. Amazing how some of us can adapt. I'd never go back to KDE3. I've tried Gnome, to be open minded, and I just can't buy into it. It's personal taste. However, I do like XFCE for light weight. But my main desktop will be KDE 4 and always be KDE 4. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

* Anton Aylward [08-14-10 07:53]:

Then we can expect the same arguments, can't we, from the KDE$ fudders who think that KDE5 is a broken pile of excreta and we should stick with KDE4 for ever and ever ...

History is like that.

Of course all of us real computer users know that the ne-plus-ultra of office computing was DOS3.3 and WordPerfect4.2 ...

Donnow, still a little stuck on WordStar 2.0 :^) but the rest rings true. We should be saving some of the *riper* posts for playback. -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, 2010-08-14 at 14:19 +0200, C wrote:

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Donnow, still a little stuck on WordStar 2.0 :^) Bwaha... the BEST word processor was the one I had for my Atari 65XE... you had to use the joystick to move the cursor around... I

On Sat, Aug 14, 2010 at 14:15, Patrick Shanahan wrote: think it was called XLEnt or something like that.

Nah. GeoWorks on the C-64; best OS + application suite ever! Totally.

Err.. now I'm showing how old I am. :-P

Yep. Fortunately I now have openSUSE 11.3 / GNOME / Open Office. Which rate a close second. :) And I don't have to constantly swap floppy disks! -- Adam Tauno Williams LPIC-1, Novell CLA http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com OpenGroupware, Cyrus IMAPd, Postfix, OpenLDAP, Samba -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, 2010-08-15 at 22:11 +0200, Mike wrote:

On Sunday 15 August 2010, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:

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On Sat, 2010-08-14 at 14:19 +0200, C wrote:

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Bwaha... the BEST word processor was the one I had for my Atari 65XE... you had to use the joystick to move the cursor around... I think it was called XLEnt or something like that Nah. GeoWorks on the C-64; best OS + application suite ever! Totally. Glad your memory is better than mine. I've been beating myself up trying to remember that. But do you still have the computer? I do.. ;-)

I do; and discovered that the last models of the C64C have an extra 'hot' pin on the video out that provides S-Video output. -- Adam Tauno Williams LPIC-1, Novell CLA http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com OpenGroupware, Cyrus IMAPd, Postfix, OpenLDAP, Samba -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Patrick Shanahan said the following on 08/14/2010 08:15 AM:

Donnow, still a little stuck on WordStar 2.0 :^)

No, Patrick, you have to let go and move on. WordPerfect4.2 is a completely new code base; WordStar2 was really at the end of its development life, the code was so hacked about as to be confusing. WordPerfect4.2 is a much more powerful too. OK, so not everything is quite where you were used to but its actually more rational and this new design allows for new features and a much better product future. -- My Lord, If I attempted to answer the mass of futile correspondence which surrounds me, I should be debarred from the serious business of campaigning...So long as I retain an independent position, I shall see no officer under my command is debarred by attending to the futile driveling of mere quill-driving from attending to his first duty, which is and always has been to train the private men under his command that they may without question beat any force opposed to them in the field. - Lord Wellington to the Secretary of State for War during the Peninsular Campaign -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Patrick Shanahan said the following on 08/14/2010 08:49 AM:

Hmmm, well. Guess I'll have to make do with joe/jed. Can't remember all them new-fangled key combinations :^)

Its not complicated. You just need two fingers. Many people use one on each hand but us Brits use the first two on the right hand. I've seen Americans do quite well with just one finger.

My calculator is better, just 13 strings with 7 beads on each ...

I find one of those in an old junk store, but there wasn't an instructions manual, and when I went back to find the store there was a just a brick wall .... -- "Be brave enough to live creatively. The creative is the place where no one else has ever been. You have to leave the city of your comfort and go into the wilderness of your intuition. You can't get there by bus, only by hard work, risking, and by not quite knowing what you"re doing. What you"ll discover will be wonderful: yourself." -- Alan Alda. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Michael S. Dunsaavage said the following on 08/14/2010 10:08 AM:

On 8/14/2010 7:50 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:

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Of course all of us real computer users know that the ne-plus-ultra of office computing was DOS3.3 and WordPerfect4.2 .

A little before my time. Would you settle for Windows 3.1 and MS Works?

Waste of bl00dy time. All useless eye-candy and fiddling around with fonts. :-) (If you don't see the analogy, try squinting ...) -- The bitterness of poor quality lingers long after the sweetness of meeting schedules is forgotten. --Kathleen Byle, Sandia National Laboratories -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 14 August 2010 14:27:02 kanenas@hawaii.rr.com wrote:

On Friday 13 August 2010 06:23:01 pm Michael S. Dunsaavage wrote: <clip>

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...

KDE3 was good, but a bit outdated. Better then Windows XP, but underdog for anything that came after.

This was mine, so I will answer.

And just what might that be?

vista? even ms itself gave up on it.

A bit heavy on contemporary hardware, which was main reason for mass rejection by enterprise market. Now it runs fine even with another OS, like openSUSE, in Virtual Box.

seven? wannatalk about drivers? crashes? not ported shtuff?

Drivers are the hardware vendor's problem, and there will be at any time bad designed drivers. Not ported stuff. Backward compatibility is what bloats any software and processors. While I can sympathize with pain of those that paid for something that they can't run on newer machines, keeping backward compatibility works only to some extent.

if kde3 was better than xp (assuming the xp X system), there is still little competition and it is still behind:)

The only thing that developers did wrong with KDE4 was marketing, which they are not skilled for, so I can forgive mistakes. I use KDE4 every day. I used it every day with Athlon 1500 MHz CPU and 1GB RAM. That computer was new in 2001 (9years ago). It is not snappy as new one, but it is working and it is even better now with openSUSE 11.3. I used it often with laptop that is some 5 years old, where it works nice and smooth (Athlon 64 3500+).

*anywhere* in this world number two becomes number one by first emulating number one and then going past with hard work.

Emulating gives no reference to what is emulated and how close. Then, I haven't seen much of DOS 6.12 Shell in Win 3.1, then 3.1 in Win 95 and so on till this days. So what part of emulation you refer to?

There are very few cases where a total departure from the norm went to the top right away. d.

There is no total departure from norm set with KDE3. The differences are much smaller then between fvwm and any window manager that followed it, and sincerely I remember complaints. It was time when people were grateful for gifts and if one wanted more, he/she would give some counter present first. What I see here are demands, like one has right to demand more gifts. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 16 Aug 2010 05:26:48 Ilya Chernykh wrote:

On Monday 16 August 2010 08:11:43 Rajko M. wrote:

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...

There are very few cases where a total departure from the norm went to the top right away. d.

There is no total departure from norm set with KDE3.

You are wrong. There is nothing in common between KDE3 and KDE4 except some applications. They have definitely less in common than KDE3 and Gnome.

Now who's talking out of his backside get real will ya , There are a few problems with KDE 4.x.x but to call KDE3 and Gnome closer than KDE3 and KDE4 is just so far way off it is unprintable . I am no Great lover of KDE 4.4.4 BUT it is very useable it Does still lack in certain areas yes i am finding them but they are solvable certain things are Over complicated but non the less thay are functions that were NOT in the 3.x.x branch Comparing KDE3 to Gnome well think you must have taken a good draw on the wackey backey in the last few mins .. Pete . -- Powered by openSUSE 11.3 (x86_64) Kernel: 2.6.34-12-desktop KDE Development Platform: 4.4.4 (KDE 4.4.4) "release 2" 07:39 up 8 days 21:37, 2 users, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 16 August 2010 12:10:13 Basil Chupin wrote:

The bottom line is: KDE3 is dead. Finished. Kaputt. I said this months ago. A team of staunch supporters (maintainers) is now in place - but they are, honestly, p****** against the gale, with the very basic application on which KDE3 depends now not being supported.

Which application?

Those using gnome don't go thru the constant bickering and the reams of posts which KDE users go thru.

gnome simply just does its job.

The only thing which gnome users are "concerned" about is when gnome v3.0 will find its way into "their" distro even though it is scheduled for release this coming September (ie, next month).

Yes, there is really base for concerns. But as I heard it was postponed until next year.

...

Want to reduce your blood-pressure without having to take medication (including "wackey-tobbackey")? Switch over to gnome :-) .

Ah! Sorry, but I have to keep Bruce in mind.....and so must add: or switch to some other DE other than KDE or gnome, like xfce :-) .

I do not consider anything other than KDE3 and Gnome to be sufficiently feature-complete right now. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 12:01, Ilya Chernykh wrote:

On Monday 16 August 2010 12:10:13 Basil Chupin wrote:

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The bottom line is: KDE3 is dead. Finished. Kaputt. I said this months ago. A team of staunch supporters (maintainers) is now in place - but they are, honestly, p****** against the gale, with the very basic application on which KDE3 depends now not being supported.

Which application?

You're not trying very hard are you? QT3 which has been EOL since 01 July 2007, is no longer being developed. This unsupported, no longer developed or bugfixed, EOL framework is the underlying core of KDE3, and what Basil was referring to. QT4 which was released in 2005 is the currently supported and developed QT framework, and this is what KDE4 is built upon. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 13:00, Ilya Chernykh wrote:

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...

Which application?

You're not trying very hard are you?  QT3 which has been EOL since 01 July 2007, is no longer being developed.  This unsupported, no longer developed or bugfixed, EOL framework is the underlying core of KDE3, and what Basil was referring to.

So what? Does it mean Qt3 has more bugs than Qt4?

BTW Qt3 is supported at least by SUSE team as it is included in OpenSUSE regardless of KDE3 and many applications included in OpenSUSE use it.

QT3 is End Of Life.... no more bug fixing... no more development... it's done. If there are bugs in QT3... too bad, so sad... it's unsupported. File a bug on QT3 and see what Trolltech says about it. It's not that hard to understand. C. (nom nom nom... the trolls are hungry today) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, 2010-08-16 at 15:00 +0400, Ilya Chernykh wrote:

On Monday 16 August 2010 14:55:15 C wrote:

...

...

Which application? You're not trying very hard are you? QT3 which has been EOL since 01 July 2007, is no longer being developed. This unsupported, no longer developed or bugfixed, EOL framework is the underlying core of KDE3, and what Basil was referring to. So what? Does it mean Qt3 has more bugs than Qt4? BTW Qt3 is supported at least by SUSE team as it is included in OpenSUSE regardless of KDE3 and many applications included in OpenSUSE use it.

You are confusing "packaged" with "supported". Not at all the same thing. -- Adam Tauno Williams LPIC-1, Novell CLA http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com OpenGroupware, Cyrus IMAPd, Postfix, OpenLDAP, Samba -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 16 August 2010 10:47:39 Peter Nikolic wrote:

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...

There is no total departure from norm set with KDE3.

You are wrong. There is nothing in common between KDE3 and KDE4 except some applications. They have definitely less in common than KDE3 and Gnome.

Now who's talking out of his backside get real will ya ,

There are a few problems with KDE 4.x.x but to call KDE3 and Gnome closer than KDE3 and KDE4 is just so far way off it is unprintable .

This is simply plain: KDE3, Gnome, Xfce, Lxde, E17 exploit the same paradigm of the desktop which was laid out by Xerox 8010 in 1981. KDE4 on the other hand, boldly departs from this convention. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 16 August 2010 14:35:11 Rodney Baker wrote:

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...

Now who's talking out of his backside get real will ya ,

There are a few problems with KDE 4.x.x but to call KDE3 and Gnome closer than KDE3 and KDE4 is just so far way off it is unprintable .

This is simply plain: KDE3, Gnome, Xfce, Lxde, E17 exploit the same paradigm of the desktop which was laid out by Xerox 8010 in 1981. KDE4 on the other hand, boldly departs from this convention.

If no-one ever "boldly (went) where no man has gone before" (to borrow a phrase from a well-known sci-fi series) then where would we be today?

But experiments on the users should not be the main endeavor of a mainstream desktop.

The same place as we were in 1981? This truly seems like a generational issue.

Nearly any mainstream operating system and desktop environment used this paradigm for 30 years. Not because nobody could not invent something different but because they could not invent anything better. Experimental DEs existed but they remained fringe. Now KDE4 devs think they can invent something better than hundreds of people could not invent for third a century? They are so confident in their endowments that are forcing users into their new vision. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 2010-08-16 13:03, Rodney Baker wrote:

On Mon, 16 Aug 2010 20:19:10 Ilya Chernykh wrote:

Who's forcing anyone? Did anyone hold a gun to a user's head and say, "use KDE4 or else" (or anything else of the sort)?

There are many ways of forcing. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Elessar))

Rodney Baker said the following on 08/16/2010 07:03 AM:

Funny, I didn't notice too many changes in the way I worked between KDE3 and KDE4. Sure, a few options have moved around, some things took a couple of minutes to find but nothing was insurmountable. Once KDE4.1 arrived I don't think I started KDE3 ever again.

+1

This is free software. You have the right to use it or not. You have the right to file bugs, feature requests and actively and constructively participate in the community. You have the right to submit patches. Unfortunately you also have the right to bitch and complain as much as you like to anyone who'll listen but this isn't the place to do that. If you want to contribute positively, now's the time to start. Otherwise, keep up the good work with the KDE3 repositories and leave KDE4 (and the devs) alone.

That's a valid point. Ilya - and others - have an opportunity to prove, is say PROVE, that KDE3 is better than KDE4 by making it better. Why they think they can make it better by decrying KDE4 I don't understand. All they are doing is demonstrating to the neutral community-at-large their intolerance. In sales and other areas "actions speak louder then words". Ilya - and others - _say_ KDE4 is broken but won't follow that up with the _action_ or reporting bugs and describing the context and settings (as was mentioned earlier). To the rest of us this seems more like the proverbial 'dog in a manger' attitude begrudging the rest of us what he cannot or will not himself enjoy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dog_in_the_Manger -- Virtually every major technological advance in the history of the human species-- back to the invention of stone tools and the domestication of fire-- has been ethically ambiguous. --Carl Sagan (The Demon-Haunted World) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 10:42 AM, Felix Miata wrote:

The forcing is indirect. Intelligent people want and expect available security fixes and the occasional new features that are actually useful. This is only possible by upgrading the OS when its "support" period expires. Of the many users of the various Linux distros, few are as lucky as those of openSUSE, due to its preserving the ability to continue using the DTE that best gets the job done for them, KDE3. For the most part, "support" for a mature product like KDE3 isn't really needed. Most of its users either don't hit whatever bugs remain, or have learned to work through or around them. They remain able to continue to get their work done without disruption from needing to learn major new paradigms, or finding alternatives to the missing or buggy features their work depends on.

Agreed. With so many areas, people are always trying to do something "new" when what is current is actually plenty "Good Enough". I still use MacOS 9 on my Powerbook 3400. I CAN run Linux or NetBSD on it, but have never gotten around to it. My laptop is a P3/1Ghz, 11.0/KDE3. Runs great. After installing 11.3/KDE4 on a P3/700 for testing, I find KDE4 to be unusable when KDE3 was fine on it. It was SLOW. The KDE devs claimed that KDE4 is as fast as or faster, and uses the same or LESS RAM than KDE3. That MAY have been the case with 4.0.x, and maybe 4.1.x, but definately not with 4.4.x. What was it McCoy said in Star Trek the Motion Picture? "I know Engineers, they LOVE to change things!". As someone who grew up with DOS, OS/2, etc, I prefer the command line and despise having to wade through so much crap to turn off Bling. I had repeatedly asked about KPersonalizer being ported over to KDE4 so we can have an easy way to turn on unnessessary things like search, compositing, and 3d, and looking on the KDE lists I have seen similar requests. Maybe turning off the bling is defeating the purpose of using KDE4. I've basically felt that is the case, and after using LXDE on my old P3/700 laptop, I'm finding it a very suitable replacement. Other than finding a KWord replacement(OpenOffice is TOO Bloated) it does what I need. And, since it's based on GTK, as is Firefox, I find I'm using less resources. And for those that say things are cheap and buy new, some of us can't afford it with our personal situations. Personally, I find KDE4 is not a path I will take, and I'm thrilled to see that there is KDE3 support for 11.3, so I will try to test drive that before doing anything else. Just my 2 cents. Not advocating anyone move away from KDE4, just explaining my experience. KDE4 has introduced nothing I need and many things I don't want. If it works for you then more power to you. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 16 August 2010 10:40:27 Larry Stotler wrote:

Agreed. With so many areas, people are always trying to do something "new" when what is current is actually plenty "Good Enough".

That is what happens always. That is how we as humans discover better ways to work and not every attempt is bright and shiny right from onset. The KDE story is rather typical case of development. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 16 August 2010 09:30:43 Duaine Hechler wrote:

When - I - was in IT several years ago, I wrote utilities to aid the programmers and operators in doing their jobs. However, I made SURE they were BUG FREE - BEFORE - releasing them to be used.

That several was probably 20 years ago when IBM was laughed out for (I guess) sinus function that wasn't exact to the last decimal, but since then a lot has changed. Number of parameters that programmer today must control is way larger then 20 years ago, and time frame for development is not proportionally larger. Thorough testing as it was possible then is now just a dream. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, 14 Aug 2010 21:57:29 Ilya Chernykh wrote:

On Saturday 14 August 2010 08:01:27 Rajko M. wrote:

...

KDE3 was good, but a bit outdated. Better then Windows XP, but underdog for anything that came after. For utilitarian user that values what computers do, not how nice is user interface XP like GUI is fine, but majority that wants GUI presentable to their friends will disagree.

I disagree that KDE4 looks fine. The look of KDE4 is one on the things that do not allow me to use it. And of course if I wanted to show my desktop to friends I would certainly choose KDE3 or (if it's unavailable), Gnome.

KDE4 simply looks like a hand-made article made by students, and what I would say them if Plasma crashes or huge artefacts appear on the screen?

Beauty is definitely in the eye of the beholder. When my nieces and nephew saw KDE4 running on my laptop their instant response was, "Wow! What a cool computer! I want one like that!" This from a generation that has been raised and trained on Windows (XP onwards). I'm not sure if they've had any MacOSX exposure or not, but that's the theme that I'm running on KDE4. Anyway, they liked it and wanted to know more. They're 9, 14 and 17 btw. -- =================================================== Rodney Baker VK5ZTV rodney.baker@iinet.net.au =================================================== -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 14 August 2010 12:33:42 Ilya Chernykh wrote:

On Saturday 14 August 2010 18:53:33 Rodney Baker wrote:

...

This from a generation that has been raised and trained on Windows (XP onwards). I'm not sure if they've had any MacOSX exposure or not, but that's the theme that I'm running on KDE4.

Mac OS X has the worst look ever. And this is a harmful tendency that all rushed copy MacOS (Ubuntu, KDE4 etc)

Beauty is definitely in the eye of the beholder. (Rodney) Problem with your judgment is that MACs are used very often by people that create and evaluate beauty every day. The same people create art that majority of other value as beautiful, which implies that your ability to evaluate aesthetics is not in line with majority. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, 2010-08-16 at 08:00 +0400, Ilya Chernykh wrote:

On Monday 16 August 2010 07:51:26 Rajko M. wrote:

...

The same people create art that majority of other value as beautiful, which implies that your ability to evaluate aesthetics is not in line with majority. You know OS X probably has <5% of the market in the US

False. OS/X is solidly over 7% market share in the USA. And over 10% if you count handhelds. And, more importantly, at the end of 2009 Apple had 47% of the marketshare of new PCs sold. http://theappleblog.com/2009/11/27/apple-commands-almost-half-of-all-u-s-des... http://www.betanews.com/joewilcox/article/Nearly-half-the-money-spent-at-US-... -- Adam Tauno Williams LPIC-1, Novell CLA http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com OpenGroupware, Cyrus IMAPd, Postfix, OpenLDAP, Samba -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 14 August 2010 07:27:29 Ilya Chernykh wrote:

I disagree that KDE4 looks fine.

It is matter of personal preferences.

The look of KDE4 is one on the things that do not allow me to use it.

Then don't use it, but then be nice and don't harass the majority with your dissatisfaction. There is plenty of choices around.

And of course if I wanted to show my desktop to friends I would certainly choose KDE3 or (if it's unavailable), Gnome.

Then do so. I know guy that is using fvwm2 as he is not happy with anything after, but he is not going around telling everybody that they are wrong. That is his choice that I can't understand completely, but it is his computer and he can do whatever he wants with it.

KDE4 simply looks like a hand-made article made by students, and what I would say them if Plasma crashes or huge artefacts appear on the screen?

Plasma crashes on your computer. Not on mine. Not on computers of dozen or more people that are trying to tell you that, but you are always coming back repeating: "Plasma crashes" like it happens everywhere. It happens on your computer and without much more details no one can tell what is the reason. Without data other that have no problems must assume that it is misconfiguration on your part that makes problems. Help if you can by reporting bugs, but then when you change configuration tell that in a bug report as that excludes you as primary source of information, and makes possible to close bug report if no one else can reproduce the issue. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 8/15/2010 11:49 PM, Ilya Chernykh wrote:

I am too lazy to report KDE4 bugs, let it to do KDE4 users. KDE4 has much greater issues with usability, so all bugs and plasma crashes is only a trifle. So you're not a KDE4 user, and you're not willing to report bugs, but you are NOT lazy enough to troll the list about it? Shut up if you don't use it.

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Only KDE4 users have right to express their opinion about their beloved DE? I just said I would not like to show it to a friend because of instability, but rather would choose another DE. Why would you sat this other to start a flame war. We get it you don't

On 8/16/2010 9:14 AM, Ilya Chernykh wrote: like it. Then don't use it. But don't complain about it if you don't use it. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 16 August 2010 18:28:40 Michael S. Dunsaavage wrote:

...

Only KDE4 users have right to express their opinion about their beloved DE? I just said I would not like to show it to a friend because of instability, but rather would choose another DE.

Why would you sat this other to start a flame war. We get it you don't like it. Then don't use it. But don't complain about it if you don't use it.

I do not complain about it just because, as you correctly noticed, I do not use it. The subject of message I had replied to was comparison of various DEs regarding which of them is better to show friends. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

You will never move forward - learn new things - if you are hung-up on the past.

Why do you think using KDE4 is moving forward regarding using KDE3? I think it is just as proclaiming that using Gnome is moving forward compared to using KDE or using LXDE is 'moving forward' from Gnome. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, 2010-08-16 at 16:58 +0100, Bob Williams wrote:

On Monday 16 Aug 2010 16:28:35 Ilya Chernykh wrote:

...

...

You will never move forward - learn new things - if you are hung-up on the past. Why do you think using KDE4 is moving forward regarding using KDE3? I think it is just as proclaiming that using Gnome is moving forward compared to using KDE or using LXDE is 'moving forward' from Gnome. In the interests of improving the signal-to-noise ratio on this list, could I suggest that threads comparing desktop environments be moved to opensuse- offtopic, which is underused ATM?

Or even better opensuse-kde@opensuse.org If only we could somehow get these threads to *start* over there. Just send an e-mail to opensuse-kde+subscribe@opensuse.org and there is an entire KDE specific forum! -- Adam Tauno Williams LPIC-1, Novell CLA http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com OpenGroupware, Cyrus IMAPd, Postfix, OpenLDAP, Samba -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 12:02 AM, Greg Freemyer wrote:

On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 3:44 PM, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:

...

On Mon, 2010-08-16 at 16:58 +0100, Bob Williams wrote:

...

On Monday 16 Aug 2010 16:28:35 Ilya Chernykh wrote: ... Given that KDE3 now has 3 or 4 packagers supporting openSUSE 11.x, maybe its time for a dedicated opensuse-kde3 mailinglist.

Absolutely agree. I would even think about something like good old "Unix Haters" mailinglist (it became a book, did it?). They actually helped me back in 1994-95 to switch from MS environment to Unix on Workstations and Linux on PC. What were the stages they defined? "Unix Hater" -> "Unix Survivor" -> "MS Windows Hater"... -- Mark Goldstein -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 17/08/2010 01:58, Bob Williams wrote:

On Monday 16 Aug 2010 16:28:35 Ilya Chernykh wrote:

...

...

You will never move forward - learn new things - if you are hung-up on the past.

Why do you think using KDE4 is moving forward regarding using KDE3?

I think it is just as proclaiming that using Gnome is moving forward compared to using KDE or using LXDE is 'moving forward' from Gnome.

In the interests of improving the signal-to-noise ratio on this list, could I suggest that threads comparing desktop environments be moved to opensuse- offtopic, which is underused ATM?

Bob

But only because you don't contribute to it....... :-) . BC -- Don't resent getting old - a great many are denied the privelege. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 17 August 2010 10:44:12 Basil Chupin wrote:

On 17/08/2010 01:28, Ilya Chernykh wrote:

...

...

You will never move forward - learn new things - if you are hung-up on the past.

Why do you think using KDE4 is moving forward regarding using KDE3?

I think it is just as proclaiming that using Gnome is moving forward compared to using KDE

Well, you know what, that is exactly what I am proclaiming: move to gnome and give KDE the flick.

Why?

Just stop using KDE and move over to some other DE which doesn't include gnome, OK already?

Why?

You still want to keep using a dead DE then carry on with your KDE3 -- and this applies to everyone else who still persists in living in the past and considers that KDE3 is "alive and well".

KDE3 is *DEAD*!

Invocation?

Get used to it.

Using the Morse Code is dead!

Sending a telegram is dead!

Transporting cargo across the ocean using a sail-powered schooner is dead!

Because there are better alternatives, yes. I see no better alternatives to KDE3. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 17:09, Anton Aylward wrote:

Indeed. David has waxed positively about a number of lightweight DEs here in The past.   As he suggested them I tried them.  I didn't like them and found them difficult to work with, probably because of different expectations and habits.  As such they _felt_ broken because they didn't work the way I was used to.

I actually have found David's documented exploration in e16 and e17 (to name one alternative DE) quite interesting. I also tried out e16/17 at his suggestion. I've used it before but dropped it for various reasons. Trying it again, I can see its merits, but it's not for me so I didn't continue with it. I have to say I appreciate his efforts and the reminders of other DEs.

David has also mentioned a number of screen decorations/images and the like.  I looked at those too.  I didn't like them either.

There's quite a few in his name on kdelook.org :-) C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 16 August 2010 18:19:32 Anton Aylward wrote:

C said the following on 08/16/2010 12:03 PM:

...

On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 17:09, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

Indeed. David has waxed positively about a number of lightweight DEs here in The past. As he suggested them I tried them. I didn't like them and found them difficult to work with, probably because of different expectations and habits. As such they _felt_ broken because they didn't work the way I was used to.

I actually have found David's documented exploration in e16 and e17 (to name one alternative DE) quite interesting.

Very much so; like you it motivated me to try it, not just one but on a number of occasions.

...

I also tried out e16/17 at his suggestion. I've used it before but dropped it for various reasons. Trying it again, I can see its merits, but it's not for me so I didn't continue with it.

Same here. One day, perhaps ... but its every bit as 'non trivial' as KDEX.

Perhaps David could be persuaded to submit a package that includes a configuration setup, menus, a few sets of decorations and wallpapers, a complete 'ready to run' that's more than just the distributed base. A 'this is how I think you should start' approach.

Generally, this would be a great way for those who enjoy tweaking and talking about tweaking to contribute their changes. By modifying or replacing kdebase4-openSUSE the complete default feel of KDE4 could be changed, exploring ways to satisfy those who disagree with upstream developers and the openSUSE KDE team's choices, and putting money (or at least time) in space currently occupied by a number of mouths. The OBS makes it easy. Will -- Will Stephenson, openSUSE Team SUSE LINUX Products GmbH - Nürnberg - AG Nürnberg - HRB 16746 - GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

C said the following on 08/13/2010 11:36 AM:

On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 16:38, Radule Šoškić wrote:

...

The rock-solid appearance is pretty much ruined. I experienced frequent dolphin crashes, plasma multi activity setup crashes, desktop effects crashes, device notifier crashes, etc... Yes, I admit I am at factory repo,

You're on factory and you're complaining about crashes? Haha... ok...

ROTFL!

...

but I was always at a factory grade repo, from the days of 7.x on. I even have crashes that lock up my comp in such a way that I can not ssh into it to clean the mess up.

I had minor issues with the default kernel in 11.3... fixed up updating the kernel... and with nViida (which has been corrected in the std repos). Not a single significant issue since. 11.3 is rock solid, stable and works very well on all systems I've installed it on.

I had to tell Skype to use a different device. Big Deal. I've had to do that with every new release of Skype, Linux and ALSA. Apart from that 11.3 has been wonderful. And KDE4 is great :-) But then I'm not using factory. Just let me know when 4.5 is out :-)

I don't know why you're grumping.. you said you're using Factory... which is.. experimental... gee.. it might crash...

C.

-- shin (n): A device for finding furniture in the dark. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Am Freitag, 13. August 2010, 17:52:45 schrieb C:

...

Just let me know when 4.5 is out :-)

KDE4.5 is in Factory already. Install it, it's great. Rock solid (although, make sure you grab the new dbus as well... or Dolphin will die on a regular basis). The Settings windows has been redesigned (and it's a LOT better), the desktop themes reworked, and a gazillion bugs fixed.

Just to make sure. He means KDE Factory not openSUSE factory! Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Michael S. Dunsaavage said the following on 08/13/2010 12:30 PM:

On 8/13/2010 11:48 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

Just let me know when 4.5 is out:-) http://www.kde.org/announcements/4.5/

don't know if it hit repos yet

Wait until it does. The factory is ... not guaranteed to be stable -- A distracted figure with a huge bushy beard blunders in just as you speak the word of ancient magic. The man wears loose clothing, and an expression of intense concentration. He is clutching his frizzy hair with one hand; his other hand grips an intricate grid - the object of his attention. His eyes brighten the word you've spoken reaches his ears. "Yes! Yes! That's it!" he exclaims as he draws out a pen and fills in a row of squares. "Now my hyperconstrained, double-acrostic, cryptic crossword is complete, and ready to puzzle others. That was all I needed - just a simple five-letter word, composed only of the letters 'X' 'Y' and 'Z,' that would fit here!" He grips your hand and shakes it fervently. "Thank you! Now that I've finished with that, I can get on to those other things I've been meaning to do, such as monkey-wrenching the demolition and saving recreational linguistics for future generations." He turns away and mutters, just before he departs, "I hope none of that will involve lying in front of a bulldozer..." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 21:54, Will Stephenson wrote:

K:D:F is not guaranteed to be stable as it is a building site for KDE for openSUSE 11.4.  However it is pretty good now - I busted a gut last week to make sure the Live Image was stable

For waht it's worth, KDE4.5.0 is very solid on all machines I've installed it on - from high end workstation to a lowly EEE netbook. I've had no issues at all (aside from a dbus bug that would break Dolphin, which is fixed already in the latest dbus). That extra effort put into it last week really shows. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, Aug 14, 2010 at 10:22, David C. Rankin wrote:

Currently with 11.3 my trusty old laptop hardlocks so frequently (every 5-10 minutes) that it is unusable with 11.3 and I basically just ssh into it to troubleshoot now -- much less actually use it.

Have you tried updating the Kernel? On every machine that has had locking issues (only one or two out of several installs now), a simple bump to the next Kernel 2.6.35 has sorted it all out. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 14 August 2010 16:50:59 Will Stephenson wrote:

Oh by the way, we've now got a community member maintaining KDE:KDE3 for current distributions, updating packages and actually fixing bugs for you. Where are the fireworks for Ilya Chernykh?

I would say I am not alone, for example, I would never be able to fix koffice, so this should be shared with other users who contributed to KDE:KDE3 since 11.3 release, most notably Hans-Peter Jansen who fixed most GCC compatibility issues in several packages, including koffice, Lubos Lunak, who fixed the most important packages Stephan Binner who fixed kdebase for Factory and maybe others whom I missed. Nearly every day one can see the packages in KDE:KDE3 rebuilding, so it is wrong to say it is unamintained. Today KDE:KDE3 has more than 160 packages (not counting subpackages) compared to just above 100 at the date of 11.3 release and all packages build well. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, 2010-08-14 at 14:50 +0200, Will Stephenson wrote:

On Saturday 14 August 2010 10:57:45 C wrote:

...

On Sat, Aug 14, 2010 at 10:22, David C. Rankin wrote:

...

Currently with 11.3 my trusty old laptop hardlocks so frequently (every 5-10 minutes) that it is unusable with 11.3 and I basically just ssh into it to troubleshoot now -- much less actually use it. Have you tried updating the Kernel? On every machine that has had locking issues (only one or two out of several installs now), a simple bump to the next Kernel 2.6.35 has sorted it all out. One comment. David felt encouraged to post another* hatchet job because of Radule's rant. And so the crankshaft of unproductive negativity turns and sparks another cylinder, and this list is a bit less pleasant and less use to be around. I'm a KDE hacker but please don't disregard my warning because of that: this destructive moping is hurting the atmosphere of the list and making it harder for everyone else with a regular problem to get it sorted out, learn and enjoy being part of the openSUSE community. 50% of the mail in here sounds like the minutes of the KDE 4 Victims Support Group meeting

+1 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, Aug 14, 2010 at 22:29, David C. Rankin wrote:

I'm working to build a krashdump kernel to troubleshoot:

http://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=628166

which I haven't had time to do until today -- hopefully it will expose whatever the nasty little bug in 2.6.34 is. I've had great luck with 2.6.35.1 from Arch, the 2.6.34 kernel there suffered from a similar lockup problem. The key here is to identify what the issue was so it doesn't propagate forward in the kernel and bite us again in 2.6.36 :p

That would be annoying if it crops up again. I haven't done any investigating to try and discover what it is that was fixed. A couple of days ago, someone mentioned here about some problem with that version which was a known issue... but I didn't read up on what he was talking about. BTW, I'm on 2.6.35-19 from Kernel:Head on my main server, and it's been flawless. C -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 08/14/2010 03:39 PM, C wrote:

On Sat, Aug 14, 2010 at 22:29, David C. Rankin wrote:

...

I'm working to build a krashdump kernel to troubleshoot:

http://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=628166

which I haven't had time to do until today -- hopefully it will expose whatever the nasty little bug in 2.6.34 is. I've had great luck with 2.6.35.1 from Arch, the 2.6.34 kernel there suffered from a similar lockup problem. The key here is to identify what the issue was so it doesn't propagate forward in the kernel and bite us again in 2.6.36 :p

That would be annoying if it crops up again. I haven't done any investigating to try and discover what it is that was fixed. A couple of days ago, someone mentioned here about some problem with that version which was a known issue... but I didn't read up on what he was talking about.

BTW, I'm on 2.6.35-19 from Kernel:Head on my main server, and it's been flawless.

C

C, Did you find a ndiswrapper or preload-kernel-kmp for 2.6.35? So far the 2.6.35 kernels work fine, just as they did on the Arch Linux install. Seems that 2.6.34 has some real issues somewhere. -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. Rankin Law Firm, PLLC 510 Ochiltree Street Nacogdoches, Texas 75961 Telephone: (936) 715-9333 Facsimile: (936) 715-9339 www.rankinlawfirm.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday, August 16, 2010 04:53:39 pm David C. Rankin wrote:

On 08/14/2010 03:39 PM, C wrote:

...

On Sat, Aug 14, 2010 at 22:29, David C. Rankin wrote:

...

I'm working to build a krashdump kernel to troubleshoot:

http://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=628166

which I haven't had time to do until today -- hopefully it will expose whatever the nasty little bug in 2.6.34 is. I've had great luck with 2.6.35.1 from Arch, the 2.6.34 kernel there suffered from a similar lockup problem. The key here is to identify what the issue was so it doesn't propagate forward in the kernel and bite us again in 2.6.36 :p

That would be annoying if it crops up again. I haven't done any investigating to try and discover what it is that was fixed. A couple of days ago, someone mentioned here about some problem with that version which was a known issue... but I didn't read up on what he was talking about.

BTW, I'm on 2.6.35-19 from Kernel:Head on my main server, and it's been flawless.

C

C,

Did you find a ndiswrapper or preload-kernel-kmp for 2.6.35? So far the 2.6.35 kernels work fine, just as they did on the Arch Linux install. Seems that 2.6.34 has some real issues somewhere. Do you use the Nvidia Driver? I tried this morning to swith to the 2.6.35 kernel and kept getting a dependence error on the Nvidia driver. My Nvidia driver is 256.35 on openSUSE 11.3. KDE 4.5.0 -- upscope -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 19:20, Mark Goldstein wrote:

On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 8:02 PM, upscope wrote: ...

...

Do you use the Nvidia Driver? I tried this morning to swith to the 2.6.35 kernel and kept getting a dependence error on the Nvidia driver. My Nvidia driver is  256.35 on openSUSE 11.3. KDE 4.5.0

You have to rebuild the kernel module. (Use -K option for nvidia binary installer, if you want to share other stuff between different kernel versions).

As Mark said.. you have to rebuild the kernel module. I use the binary nVidia installer, not the RPM... mainly because I prefer to use the latest drivers... and the RPMs usually lag behind a bit. C, -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 17 August 2010 15:56:24 upscope wrote:

I was thinking by using the repo I would not need to rebuild the driver.

If kernel change is large then even driver in repo will fail. So, the hard way is the easy one :) -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

* Ilya Chernykh [08-14-10 08:46]:

Hi, David! I invite you to participate in maintaining of KDE3 in OBS.

I have just repaired the process table and got rid of any weird dependencies on KDE4. Besides this I have moved many packages to KDE:KDE3 repo from other OBS places and also added several new applications from outside.

If you love KDE3 just find applications which we overlooked and submit them to KDE:KDE3.

Finally! Now there are no more reasons for bashing KDE4, just keep using your own repo. -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

David C. Rankin wrote:

Perhaps through your courage, the developers and Novell will sit in quite reflection and think about where the rock-solid stability, performance and open-source hallmarks of efficient have gone.

no, i predict they will follow the lead of those here who decide that all who do not enjoy the new versions, despite their drawbacks, bumps and lockups must be anti-SUSE trolls or *buntu fan-boys..

From the Linux users standpoint, all the glitz, glamor, and eye-candy in the world is worth a thing if it doesn't work or if it wears your fingers and hands out to do it.

imHo, the best way to get back on track is to hard wire "desktop effects" to off and shoot for a operating system again, rather than an entertainment system to sit and watch in amazement! ymmv DenverD a fan-boy for stability, dependability, predictability, and usability--like SuSE 9.3 was. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 14/08/2010 18:22, David C. Rankin wrote:

On 08/13/2010 09:38 AM, Radule Šoškić wrote:

...

Best regards,

~rms~

I do remember you on the list in the 9.0 days. Specifically the ~rms~ signature. And brother, you hit the nail on the head. I too have watched the slow decline in the stability, quality and useability of Linux over the past 2.5-3 years in particular and like you, it saddens me. Currently with 11.3 my trusty old laptop hardlocks so frequently (every 5-10 minutes) that it is unusable with 11.3 and I basically just ssh into it to troubleshoot now -- much less actually use it.

This is the same laptop that runs 10.2, 10.3, 11.0, 11.1 and 11.2 and Arch Linux without any problems at all -- sigh.. I sure wish I didn't agree with all you said, but unfortunately, I do.

Today, it isn't so much whether openSuSE works anymore or whether it is stable, it's not about that anymore. It is now about whether SLES and SLED will be stable 9 months from now running on the same software we are kindly beta testing for Novell. As for KDE4, it is sad. I had just written another article on it to a friend and I had decided not to post it to the list. But, after seeing that you had the courage to help the developers see the ugly truth of what has become of kde, then I should have no less in trying to help the FOSS community not lose site of what really matters to Linux users. So I will share my post of earlier tonight:

(coincidentally, I had saved the file as 'prideGoesBeforeAFall.txt')

[pruned]

When I read your post, I was stunned at the familiar and uncanny ring it had to it. I had just written the post above not 40 minutes earlier. Perhaps through your courage, the developers and Novell will sit in quite reflection and think about where the rock-solid stability, performance and open-source hallmarks of efficient have gone.

David, I can just see "way out there, in those yonder hills!" pigs starting to grow wings, and before you know it - they will be flying! Real soon now - I am certain of it! Novell is looking for a buyer - so it's not really interested in any "quiet reflection" to think about "..open-source hallmarks...". It's all about $$$$$$ now. As far as the developers......well even Edison had a dream. Didn't quite work out at first, but he finally got there.....

From the Linux users standpoint, all the glitz, glamor, and eye-candy in the world is worth a thing if it doesn't work or if it wears your fingers and hands out to do it.

(I suspect that there is a typo in the above.... :-) ) To you, to me, to many people, this is the case. But there are many, many more who are attracted by flashing neon signs, screaming voices in a TV ad. telling you that you just simply *MUST* buy now while the offer lasts otherwise you end up with your little ass in hell for all eternity, and so on and etc, etc, etc...... If one accepts that KDE4 is not to your liking, and never will be because the devs took off on the project while imbibing unspecified "medications", or forgot to have a haircut, and that KDE3 is the best but, unfortunately it is dead in the water and will be so forever and a day unless its base is brought back to life (ie, QT3), then the only sensible thing to do is to move on...and use another DE. Would you agree with this or not? BC -- Don't resent getting old - a great many are denied the privelege. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 09:51, Ilya Chernykh wrote:

Why don't you cry that Gambas, for example, dead, because it also uses Qt3? Why Gambas is still not thrown away from OpenSUSE? Why other Qt3-based apps like QCad, OProfile etc? I think that Qt3 is 'dead' is only a pretext to get rid of KDE3 and never applied to other Qt3-based software.

And.. guess what the chatter was a year or more ago over at QCad... hey.. QT3 is dead upstream.. what do we do about porting to QT4? QCAD as early as the beginning of 2009 was ported to QT4. Hmmm... what are they doing over in OProfile development.. oh look.. porting to QT4 (started around middle of last year). Gee I wonder why? Maybe it's because QT3 is EOL. Well now.. lets go look into Gambas... oh wow... they don't do development on gb.qt anymore. All development is done on gb.qt4. Hmmm interesting... I wonder what relationship gb.qt4 has to QT3..... Is there a common theme here? I'm sure it's there somewhere... Basically Ilya.. your examples are useless to prove your point... in fact they proved everyone else's point. Each and every one of your examples is either already ported to QT4 or in the process of being ported. The developers all were deep into QT4 by no later than the middle of 2009.... and most were stating on their mailing lists by June 2009, that they were no longer developing on QT3. A simple Google search revealed that. <nom nom nom nom.. the troll is really hungry today> C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 8/20/2010 6:39 AM, michael norman wrote:

just how long is this stuff going to go on ?

I have used SUSE since about version 5 something and subscribed to this list since theh.

I have never read a more utterly useless discussion.

could somebody make it stop ?

Please

Mike This one might stop, it's already quieted down even after the subject was changed, but another one will pop up tomorrow. I mentioned it before, it's like herpes where the symptoms go away, but the disease doesn't.

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 8/20/2010 6:39 AM, michael norman wrote:

On Wednesday 18 August 2010 09:21:18 C wrote:

...

On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 09:51, Ilya Chernykh wrote:

...

Why don't you cry that Gambas, for example, dead, because it also uses Qt3? Why Gambas is still not thrown away from OpenSUSE? Why other Qt3-based apps like QCad, OProfile etc? I think that Qt3 is 'dead' is only a pretext to get rid of KDE3 and never applied to other Qt3-based software.

And.. guess what the chatter was a year or more ago over at QCad... hey.. QT3 is dead upstream.. what do we do about porting to QT4? QCAD as early as the beginning of 2009 was ported to QT4.

Hmmm... what are they doing over in OProfile development.. oh look.. porting to QT4 (started around middle of last year). Gee I wonder why? Maybe it's because QT3 is EOL.

Well now.. lets go look into Gambas... oh wow... they don't do development on gb.qt anymore. All development is done on gb.qt4. Hmmm interesting... I wonder what relationship gb.qt4 has to QT3.....

Is there a common theme here? I'm sure it's there somewhere...

Basically Ilya.. your examples are useless to prove your point... in fact they proved everyone else's point. Each and every one of your examples is either already ported to QT4 or in the process of being ported. The developers all were deep into QT4 by no later than the middle of 2009.... and most were stating on their mailing lists by June 2009, that they were no longer developing on QT3.

A simple Google search revealed that.

<nom nom nom nom.. the troll is really hungry today>

C. just how long is this stuff going to go on ?

I have used SUSE since about version 5 something and subscribed to this list since theh.

I have never read a more utterly useless discussion.

could somebody make it stop ?

Please

Mike

Hahaha welcome to the "utterly useless" discussion! I guess you never figured out that joining a discussion is about the dumbest possible way to end it. You make it stop be NOT participating in it. Except you can't "make" it stop. All you can do is not add your own interest and wait and hope for others to eventually do the same. Posting "You all shut up about this topic I don't happen to care about." is not only inexcusably rude and offensive, it's also _participating_ and _contributing_ to the very thing you profess to be utterly useless. And of course it also causes responses like mine which are surely even less interesting to you. Pretty idiotic tactic all around I'd say. Yes this post of mine adds to the thread too but the difference is I have no problem with this thread so there is nothing hypocritical or ironic at all about that. I, as neither a ked3 nor kde4 nor gnome user, am actually reasonably interested in the various points being raised in this discussion. Not all are actually very interesting, but the few that are, are, and the rest don't cost me anything to ignore. To me it's not about KDE3 or 4. To me it's about watching the world at large painfully agonizingly slowly accrete wisdom. Or fail to. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 8/20/2010 11:54 AM, Michael S. Dunsaavage wrote:

On 8/20/2010 11:49 AM, Brian K. White wrote:

...

Hahaha welcome to the "utterly useless" discussion! I guess you never figured out that joining a discussion is about the dumbest possible way to end it. You make it stop be NOT participating in it. Except you can't "make" it stop. All you can do is not add your own interest and wait and hope for others to eventually do the same.

Posting "You all shut up about this topic I don't happen to care about." is not only inexcusably rude and offensive, it's also _participating_ and _contributing_ to the very thing you profess to be utterly useless.

And of course it also causes responses like mine which are surely even less interesting to you. Pretty idiotic tactic all around I'd say. Yes this post of mine adds to the thread too but the difference is I have no problem with this thread so there is nothing hypocritical or ironic at all about that.

I, as neither a ked3 nor kde4 nor gnome user, am actually reasonably interested in the various points being raised in this discussion. Not all are actually very interesting, but the few that are, are, and the rest don't cost me anything to ignore. To me it's not about KDE3 or 4. To me it's about watching the world at large painfully agonizingly slowly accrete wisdom. Or fail to. so are you not doing the same by commenting on the comment? I've already commented, thus already in for the haul. But you're just telling a guy what he did wrong, but doing the same thing.

What exactly am I doing wrong or the same? Better yet, why are you trying to remark upon post you didn't even read? If you had read what I said, you'd have read the part where I already answered predictable responses like yours from people who have no acuity. To wit: I do not dislike this thread, and so it's not the least illogical for me to participate in it. I'm not the one who called it useless. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 8/20/2010 7:37 PM, Michael S. Dunsaavage wrote:

On 8/20/2010 2:41 PM, Brian K. White wrote:

...

On 8/20/2010 11:54 AM, Michael S. Dunsaavage wrote:

...

On 8/20/2010 11:49 AM, Brian K. White wrote:

...

Hahaha welcome to the "utterly useless" discussion! I guess you never figured out that joining a discussion is about the dumbest possible way to end it. You make it stop be NOT participating in it. Except you can't "make" it stop. All you can do is not add your own interest and wait and hope for others to eventually do the same.

Posting "You all shut up about this topic I don't happen to care about." is not only inexcusably rude and offensive, it's also _participating_ and _contributing_ to the very thing you profess to be utterly useless.

And of course it also causes responses like mine which are surely even less interesting to you. Pretty idiotic tactic all around I'd say. Yes this post of mine adds to the thread too but the difference is I have no problem with this thread so there is nothing hypocritical or ironic at all about that.

I, as neither a ked3 nor kde4 nor gnome user, am actually reasonably interested in the various points being raised in this discussion. Not all are actually very interesting, but the few that are, are, and the rest don't cost me anything to ignore. To me it's not about KDE3 or 4. To me it's about watching the world at large painfully agonizingly slowly accrete wisdom. Or fail to. so are you not doing the same by commenting on the comment? I've already commented, thus already in for the haul. But you're just telling a guy what he did wrong, but doing the same thing.

What exactly am I doing wrong or the same? Better yet, why are you trying to remark upon post you didn't even read? If you had read what I said, you'd have read the part where I already answered predictable responses like yours from people who have no acuity. To wit: I do not dislike this thread, and so it's not the least illogical for me to participate in it. I'm not the one who called it useless.

you posted " You make it stop be NOT participating in it. Except you can't "make" it stop. All you can do is not add your own interest and wait and hope for others to eventually do the same."

Yet you yourself are participating. You're telling the way to make the thread die is to not comment at all to the thread, yet you commented to it yourself. Had you send him a private email, it'd be different. Because you would not be contributing to the thread. And it's awfully naive of you to assume I didn't read your post. I've followed this thread closely myself. So instructing a person on how to let it die by yourself doing the opposite is quite hypocritical.

Where in any of my post did I say anything about wanting the thread to stop? I never did. I neither want it to stop nor want it to continue particularly. I want it to do whatever it will do. So where is the irony in my posting to a thread that I never expressed any dislike of? -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 21/08/2010 10:02, Michael S. Dunsaavage wrote:

On 8/20/2010 7:54 PM, Brian K. White wrote:

...

On 8/20/2010 7:37 PM, Michael S. Dunsaavage wrote:

...

On 8/20/2010 2:41 PM, Brian K. White wrote:

...

On 8/20/2010 11:54 AM, Michael S. Dunsaavage wrote:

...

On 8/20/2010 11:49 AM, Brian K. White wrote:

...

Hahaha welcome to the "utterly useless" discussion! I guess you never figured out that joining a discussion is about the dumbest possible way to end it. You make it stop be NOT participating in it. Except you can't "make" it stop. All you can do is not add your own interest and wait and hope for others to eventually do the same.

Posting "You all shut up about this topic I don't happen to care about." is not only inexcusably rude and offensive, it's also _participating_ and _contributing_ to the very thing you profess to be utterly useless.

And of course it also causes responses like mine which are surely even less interesting to you. Pretty idiotic tactic all around I'd say. Yes this post of mine adds to the thread too but the difference is I have no problem with this thread so there is nothing hypocritical or ironic at all about that.

I, as neither a ked3 nor kde4 nor gnome user, am actually reasonably interested in the various points being raised in this discussion. Not all are actually very interesting, but the few that are, are, and the rest don't cost me anything to ignore. To me it's not about KDE3 or 4. To me it's about watching the world at large painfully agonizingly slowly accrete wisdom. Or fail to. so are you not doing the same by commenting on the comment? I've already commented, thus already in for the haul. But you're just telling a guy what he did wrong, but doing the same thing.

What exactly am I doing wrong or the same? Better yet, why are you trying to remark upon post you didn't even read? If you had read what I said, you'd have read the part where I already answered predictable responses like yours from people who have no acuity. To wit: I do not dislike this thread, and so it's not the least illogical for me to participate in it. I'm not the one who called it useless.

you posted " You make it stop be NOT participating in it. Except you can't "make" it stop. All you can do is not add your own interest and wait and hope for others to eventually do the same."

Yet you yourself are participating. You're telling the way to make the thread die is to not comment at all to the thread, yet you commented to it yourself. Had you send him a private email, it'd be different. Because you would not be contributing to the thread. And it's awfully naive of you to assume I didn't read your post. I've followed this thread closely myself. So instructing a person on how to let it die by yourself doing the opposite is quite hypocritical.

Where in any of my post did I say anything about wanting the thread to stop? I never did. I neither want it to stop nor want it to continue particularly. I want it to do whatever it will do. So where is the irony in my posting to a thread that I never expressed any dislike of?

Follow along now. You, yes you Mister Brian K. White, are explaining to a person how to make a thread stop. You're explanation is to not contribute to the thread. Are you with me? So you yourself contributed to the thread, thus going against your very own explanation of how to make the thread stop. I don't know where you read I said you wanted it stop, because in no place did I say or insinuate that.

LOL! Oh...this is so much better than the Abbott & Costello "Who's on First?" (Baseball) routine! So much better...... -- Wagner's music is really not as bad as it sounds. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 21/08/2010 18:58, G T Smith wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

Basil Chupin wrote:

...

LOL!

Oh...this is so much better than the Abbott& Costello "Who's on First?" (Baseball) routine!

So much better......

Dunno about baseball or this particular bit of A&C,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aehzwwD2II

I think in the early P.G.Woodhouse books baseball is described as rounders (in England a game which used to be played by schoolgirls) played by men. :-)

An alternative is the following dictionary definition...

recursion: see recursion

:-)

What's another name for thesaurus?

but like this thread that definition does not have a terminating condition...

I'll stop now.....and go and play in the traffic.... BC -- Wagner's music is really not as bad as it sounds. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 22/08/2010 16:49, Ed Greshko wrote:

On 08/22/2010 12:59 PM, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

What's another name for thesaurus?

synonymnovel ?

:-D :-D Nice try! But perhaps "synonymaurus" would be closer? :-) BC -- Wagner's music is really not as bad as it sounds. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 22/08/2010 17:11, Ed Greshko wrote:

On 08/22/2010 03:03 PM, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

On 22/08/2010 16:49, Ed Greshko wrote:

...

On 08/22/2010 12:59 PM, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

What's another name for thesaurus?

synonymnovel ?

:-D :-D

Nice try! But perhaps "synonymaurus" would be closer? :-)

BC

Since neither are real words they are equally close.

The Americans keep inventing new words all the time, so why shouldn't an Australian, eh? My word "synonymaurus" is now an official word and it means the alternate word for "thesaurus", OK? It should appear in the next edition of the Macquarie Dictionary - and if not, I'll start asking questions!

Besides, IMO, it isn't successful humor when you use part of the question (aurus)

"aurus"....never heard of it, but if I just created a new word - well ahead of the Yanks! :-) - then you are entitled to create "aurus".

in the humorous response...especially when that part has no meaning in and of itself. :-)

My other choice was to go with a pun...as in "cinnamonovel".

And why not I ask, why not! (I wonder how long this thread will go on before we are all chucked off?! :-D .) BC -- Wagner's music is really not as bad as it sounds. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 22/08/2010 17:33, Ed Greshko wrote:

On 08/22/2010 03:28 PM, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

I wonder how long this thread will go on before we are all chucked off?!

Or even upchucked off.

Possibly, possibly....but let's wait and see what happens when London finally wakes up and starts reading this thread..... :-) . BC -- Wagner's music is really not as bad as it sounds. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 8/21/2010 1:44 AM, Sven Burmeister wrote:

It's a simple explanation why it won't stop. It does not say anything about whether the person who gives that hint does actually want the thread to die or not. Those are two different things. It's like telling somebody else that turning the water tap in the wrong direction does not make the water stop flowing out of it. That statement does not mean that one wants to stop the water, it just explains why whatever the other person does won't work.

*sigh* You're nicer than me. I don't have to have the virtue to admire it. :) -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

what? Since what I had said before was "it's dumb to try to end a thread by joining it" that means that what you said is "It's just as dumb for you BKW to to try to end a thread by joining it."

And thus ensues our own little off-off-off-topic nonsense, because, as I said, it's not dumb at all for me, because I have no particular feelings about this thread one way or the other. I'm perfectly fine with it and am not trying to end it. This has absolutely no bearing on or relation at all with my comment to the other person. He's the one who claims to hate the thread, and so it's only dumb for him to join it.

So I ask again, what was your point? Or do you finally see that you had no point? Dazzle me with the point which exists and isn't logically broken, which I have missed. Or don't and stop trying to defend the indefensible. This whole off shoot started by you telling someone the way to make the

On 8/21/2010 10:28 AM, Brian K. White wrote: thread stop is to essentially not reply to it. Which is what YOU did, in replying to him. I can comprehend fine. You're the one that can't. Nowhere did I say you thought it was dumb. No where did I say you want it to stop. If you can point out where I specifically said that you want it stop, please do....and good luck with that. The whole point of this little offshoot is if you're going to explain to someone how to let a thread die, then don't yourself respond to the thread. Do you get my point now? I can't really make it any more clearer. If you don't get it yet, I can't help you. Thus I'm ending this because I'm tired of going in circles. Maybe if u still don't get what I'm saying I'll find a linguist to spell it out in ancient Mayan or something. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 20 August 2010 18:54:59 Brian K. White wrote:

Where in any of my post did I say anything about wanting the thread to stop?

Nowhere. Probably wrong threading on Michael's side. It happens sometimes here due to miscellaneous reasons. Now we can go back to "An old story, six years later (OT, or NOT?)" (which is equally useful) :) If Radule didn't put in his initial post few statements that he didn't check, there will be something to discuss, with those statements in focus we wandered off the topic - how to make openSUSE better. There is also another option, we can go to the opensuse-project, or http://forums.opensuse.org/english/community/surveys-polls/ and see what to do with stale discussions about strategy proposals. Guys are trying to do something, it is just that they need right description where we are and then where we want to be in next 3-5 years. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 15:24, Radule Šoškić wrote:

I want a stable KDE4 opensuse 11.3 machine that is updated to the latest bug-fixes from the kernel all the way up to the apps like openoffice, mozilla stuff (F-fox and T-bird) and mp3-aware multimedia (audio/video/webcam). And yes I am ready to give up compiz and go for kwin effects.

I am ready to build up one really stable and well behaving installation. I want to get the same experience as all other happy people on the list.

Could you please, help me with the list of repos that I have to use, besides the ones that come with fresh install.

I sincerely want to give it a try.

Add the Community repositories. Go to YaST > Software > Software Repositories > Add > Community Repositories and pick the ones that are of interest to you. For KDE4, http://en.opensuse.org/KDE_repositories has all the info you need. For a stable KDE4.5.0, add Factory (KDE4.5), not Unstable SC (KDE Trunk). Make sure you include Extra and Playground. Set the repository priority to a number lower than the default 99. While in the YaST Software installer click View > Repositories. Then click the new "Repositories" tab. Select the three new KDE4 Factory repositories you just added (should be in the list on the left) and then click the "Switch system packages" link to switch over to the new KDE repository. During the updates, make sure you also get the latest dbus package or Dolphin will crash all the time due to a bug in the dbus version that comes with 11.3 (the bug affects KDE4.5.0 not 4.4.4). Depending on your hardware, you may find you need to update your default kernel to Kernel:openSUSE-11.3 for 2.6.34 with backports or Kernel:Head for 2.6.35 (depending on which you prefer) The repos for the Kernel are: http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/Kernel:/HEAD/openSUSE_11.3/ or http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/Kernel:/openSUSE-11.3/openSUSE_11.... This is basically what I've done on my computers, and it's running fine (fast, stable, reliable etc etc). Did I miss anything? C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org