On Sun, 2005-11-06 at 14:15 +0200, Andre Truter wrote:

On 11/6/05, M.Blackmore wrote:

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Surely not, please tell me this is a mis-reporting, someone. Please Please.

http://linux.slashdot.org/linux/05/11/05/1620206.shtml?tid=223&tid=106

Oh no! Not again!.

Please READ the article.

It states that SLES and NLD will standardise on GNOME. (KDE will still be there)

Actually it said the KDE -libs- will be there, nothing about the desktop being there. The libs being there so you can run KDE apps in gnome.

OpenSUSE and SUSE Linux will continue as is.

And so will the former "PRO" suse release.

This thread has been running on the SUSE mailing list also with people interpreting the article to say that SUSE will not support KDE anymore.

Please don't start a scare over noting without any facts here too.

-- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998

On 11/6/05, Howard Coles Jr. wrote:

Well, think about it. If Novell's Desktop is GNOME, and their Server is GNOME, why would they want to have a different standard on SUSE and OpenSUSE especially when that's where they get their code base?

Because SUSE Linux and OpenSUSE are influenced by the community and are not corporate products.

We were all kicking around the office about just how long it would take Novell to kill SUSE like it did UnixWare, WordPerfect, now NetWare. I was thinking it would take them a while. Considering that every poll of any validity shows KDE has 2 users and developers per Gnome's 1 (very conservative) to more like 3:1 it would make sense to kill something you'd go to the 1.

I think with SUSE it is a different case, becuase they do not have ultimate control over SUSE. The Open Source factor will prevent Novell from killing it. Then, if I look at what Novell has done since they bought SUSE then it seems to go the opposite way. They have opened up SUSE much more than what it used to be, so they seem to be releasing on the control they have over it. SLES and NLD are different. They can control it to suit their own purposes and they can fully stop KDE support on those two if they want to. I am not punting Novell here, nor am I an expert on Novell's business practises, but my common sense tells me that what is stated in that article does not indicate the end of KDE in SUSE Linux, SLES, NLD or OpenSUSE. Where in that article or any for that matter did Novell or SUSE state that they are killing off KDE? I don't see any reason to grow a beard, wear a robe and dust off the old 'The end is Near' poster. -- Andre Truter | Software Engineer | Registered Linux user #185282 ICQ #40935899 | AIM: trusoftzaf | http://www.trusoft.za.org ~ A dinosaur is a salamander designed to Mil Spec ~

Christoph, On Sunday 06 November 2005 09:32, Christoph Thiel wrote:

...

...

It states that SLES and NLD will standardise on GNOME. (KDE will still be there)

Actually it said the KDE -libs- will be there, nothing about the desktop being there.

... expect the whole KDE "stack" to be there.

So, please clarify for us: Exactly what _is_ changing? Surely this is not all about a simple change of defaults, is it? Given the apparent misinformation or confusing presentation, it would be nice to have it from someone who _knows_ what's up.

Regards Christoph

Thanks. Randall Schulz

Christoph Thiel wrote:

On Sun, 6 Nov 2005, Randall R Schulz wrote:

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...

...

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It states that SLES and NLD will standardise on GNOME. (KDE will still be there)

Actually it said the KDE -libs- will be there, nothing about the desktop being there.

... expect the whole KDE "stack" to be there.

So, please clarify for us: Exactly what _is_ changing? Surely this is not all about a simple change of defaults, is it?

At the end of the day, if you are just thinking of KDE vs. GNOME, it's at most a change of defaults and a concentrated development focus. [Please take into account, that we are just talking about business products (SLES, NLD)!]

...

Given the apparent misinformation or confusing presentation, it would be nice to have it from someone who _knows_ what's up.

... just read my other post on this topic. That's pretty much it, what I can tell to the best of my knowledge, at this point in time.

Regards Christoph

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From a business decision perspective, it seems like a good one. Gnome has more of a look and feel similar to the MS Windows interface that most businesses are used to using. If they are looking at getting businesses to convert to a SuSE Desktop, then keeping the learning curve down would aide in that process. Just my two cents though. Personally, I will mourne the loss of KDE. -Alain

Op dinsdag 08 november 2005 23:00, schreef Allen:

Actually KDE looks more like Windows than Gnome does. Gnome is more a Mac UI.

Default KDE maybe. But KDE can be customized to look like MS or Mac... -- Richard Bos Without a home the journey is endless

On Wed, Nov 09, 2005 at 01:31:12AM +0200, Andre Truter wrote:

On 11/8/05, Alain Black wrote:

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...

From a business decision perspective, it seems like a good one. Gnome has more of a look and feel similar to the MS Windows interface that most businesses are used to using. If they are looking at getting businesses to convert to a SuSE Desktop, then keeping the learning curve down would aide in that process.

Huh? Have you ever worked with GNOME? One of the reasons I use GNOME and not KDE is because KDE it is too similar to Windows for me. I normally start new converts out on KDE, because it is easier for them to go from Windows to KDE than to GNOME.

...

Personally, I will mourne the loss of KDE.

And where did KDE go or when did it die that you mourn it?

It's not gone. Idiot's don't ever read an entire article. They see Someone say "Kde won't be here by default on Enterprise only" What they see: "Kde won't be here" Sadly I've put actual time into studying this phenomenon of stupidity.

-- Andre Truter | Software Engineer | Registered Linux user #185282 ICQ #40935899 | AIM: trusoftzaf | http://www.trusoft.za.org

~ A dinosaur is a salamander designed to Mil Spec ~

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On Thu, Nov 10, 2005 at 1:43 am, in message <173f0b9f0511090443n3081da70y989a63f90804cb44@mail.gmail.com>, andre.truter@gmail.com wrote: On 11/9/05, Allen wrote: from Windows to KDE than to GNOME.

...

Personally, I will mourne the loss of KDE.

And where did KDE go or when did it die that you mourn it?

It's not gone. Idiot's don't ever read an entire article. They see Someone say "Kde won't be here by default on Enterprise only"

To clear this out: WE WILL NOT DROP KDE, we just focus on Gnome (which is pretty obvious given our huge investment in Gnome developers). I just got a message from our Chief Linux strategist on this: "we are not dropping KDE entirely, we will make Gnome the default and the recommended platform but the plan is to continue to offer KDE as an option in all of the Linux products. We have had to implement a large restructuring in the product development area and needed to focus our efforts. We are working on a full FAQ on our desktop strategy that will be available to you, but we will not be eliminating KDE as a part of this plan. I hope this helps." I think this helps hugely! And I am so happy the rumors are NOT true. Andreas

"we are not dropping KDE entirely, we will make Gnome the default and the recommended platform but the plan is to continue to offer KDE as an option in all of the Linux products. We have had to implement a large restructuring in the product development area and needed to focus our efforts. We are working on a full FAQ on our desktop strategy that will be available to you, but we will not be eliminating KDE as a part of this plan. I hope this helps."

I think this helps hugely! And I am so happy the rumors are NOT true.

I don´t know any important distribution that have drop KDE or Gnome completely, I just don´t think that´s the point the thing is that SUSE is by now the best KDE distribution out there, that's why i'm a SUSE user and that my friend is going to change. And i can see only two important reasons to focus on Gnome: 1. Mono, but why not to force Icaza to implement QT in Mono !!! He´s answers about it are ridiculous, is that more difficult than focus all SUSE on Gnome ?? 2. LGPL, Is easy to make closed applications using Gnome than using KDE. So yes, i thing this is a bad thing -- Marcel Mourguiart

Andreas Girardet wrote:

Personally I can see why Gnome will be pushed more as it will leverage our large investment into Gnome. KDE is so well maintained by the non - suse KDE community that SUSE is going to continue to be the best KDE desktop, but additionally to that it will also be the best Gnome desktop. KDE standard packages are so good that hardly any real maintenance has to be done as many of the lead kde developers are part of the SUSE team and from what I can gather, they still will be.

There is nothing wrong with focusing on what is possible to be ready for the fight with M$ once Vista is out.

Andreas, This line sums up completely what i was afraid for when SuSE became Novell. An American company that does not build on its strongholds like KDE and a reliable Pro Distribution. But instead it becomes just like that other American company (redhat). But becoming like the competition does not help you win wars. What will win desktop customers are a good desktop system, being able to listen to mp3's out of the box and having a USB system (automount) that works without any problems. Customers using servers are not interested in GUI's. About KDE. Companies do not invest in second choices when they are in problems. And Customers will want the desktop to be like the professional system. KDE will go the way of the dodo. And i feel abandoned - probably on my way to find another home. Still i hope that Novell comes with a firm statement about building a desktop system based on KDE. And i am very thankful for what SuSE created and also for your personal contribution. But i am not to hopeful. Peter

2005/11/9, Andreas Girardet :

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On Thu, Nov 10, 2005 at 8:49 am, in message <3a22cf80511091149g6dcf17d9v@mail.gmail.com>, mourguiart@gmail.com wrote:

"we are not dropping KDE entirely, we will make Gnome the default and the recommended platform but the plan is to continue to offer KDE as an option in all of the Linux products. We have had to implement a large restructuring in the product development area and needed to focus our efforts. We are working on a full FAQ on our desktop strategy that will be available to you, but we will not be eliminating KDE as a part of this plan. I hope this helps."

I think this helps hugely! And I am so happy the rumors are NOT true.

I don?t know any important distribution that have drop KDE or Gnome completely, I just don?t think that?s the point the thing is that SUSE is by now the best KDE distribution out there, that's why i'm a SUSE user and that my friend is going to change.

And i can see only two important reasons to focus on Gnome:

1. Mono, but why not to force Icaza to implement QT in Mono !!! He?s answers about it are ridiculous, is that more difficult than focus all SUSE on Gnome ??

Good point. But why would you re implement something in another toolkit? One toolkit is enough. I rather have the toolkits compatibilities between each other improved. From what I can follow via the KDE project, this is exactly what is going to happen anyhow.

Personally I can see why Gnome will be pushed more as it will leverage our large investment into Gnome. KDE is so well maintained by the non - suse KDE community that SUSE is going to continue to be the best KDE desktop, but additionally to that it will also be the best Gnome desktop. KDE standard packages are so good that hardly any real maintenance has to be done as many of the lead kde developers are part of the SUSE team and from what I can gather, they still will be.

There is nothing wrong with focusing on what is possible to be ready for the fight with M$ once Vista is out.

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2. LGPL, Is easy to make closed applications using Gnome than using KDE.

I don't really know why that would be a bad thing. After all SUSE is already a mix of closed and open applications.

...

So yes, i thing this is a bad thing

KDE is still going to be around and SUSE is still going to be the best KDE desktop. We still are going to have a fully maintained KDE. I would think that in real world terms all that changes is that the gnome desktop will get better and more integrated, but in the end we as a SUSE community now have the reigns when it comes to making sure that KDE is going to be at a par.

I honestly think this is actually a good thing as it puts the control of a KDE desktop into our hands (as it should be) and we can make it even better. This is after all why the openSUSE community was founded, to allow certain parts of the product to be maintained by the community and allow us as Novell to concentrate as a business on those items that will make Linux a winner in the corporate environment and ultimately provide a clear choice to todays PC user.

I don't know when the FAQ will be available, but as soon as I know I let you all know.

KDE is NOT a gonner and is here to stay as intrinsically part of our products. SUSE will stay the best KDE desktop. I will do my part to ensure the latter. If we all as a community do our part than I have no doubt that SUSE is going to rule the Gnome/Enterprise market and the KDE/Home user market. After all it is up to us to make this happen. I am glad that this is still the case.

I can understand the frustration around these rumors and I am just mightily thankful they are just that.

Go SUSE go!

When Novell buy SUSE, i said "mmm SUSE is going to be more closed and i don´t like this", but the time have show me that SUSE become even more open than before ( Yast is now GPL, opensuse, etc ), so i think i can just wait and see if SUSE maintain the high quality in the KDE desktop. Thanks. pd: Sorry for my bad english -- Marcel Mourguiart

I understand your worry, but I think it is up to us in the opensuse community to keep the standard high. I know we have some of the best KDE developers on this list and as such I have no doubt we will keep it that way.

¿No doubts? I've no doubt about SuSE guys (like you) technical skills and good intentions... but I've a lot of doubts about the real resolution of Novell's corporate governance. I hope you've the reason.... -- ¡Share your knowledge! Linux user id 332494 # http://counter.li.org/ PGP id 0xC5ABA76A # http://pgp.mit.edu/

On Thursday 10 November 2005 23:58, Enrico Licini wrote:

Ok, but with no economical support as for GNOME. It seems to me that nobody at Novell will work on KDE except for package maintenance and inclusion in the distro.

What insight are you basing this on? People like Coolo are still working at Novell

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On Fri, Nov 11, 2005 at 4:11 am, in message <1131635505.3900.6.camel@localhost>, mike@mommabears.com wrote: On Thu, 2005- 11- 10 at 14:56 +0100, Sebastian Rösgen wrote: So to make this all clear (though I think it should be actually be clear, since enough people from SUSE/Novell told us what is going on).

http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/66011

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To summarize it :

Novell will not stop supporting KDE and both GUIs (KDE and Gnome) will be supported in ALL products. Only difference between now and the future is that Gnome will be defaultly selected as standard desktop (but it should not be any problem to install KDE instead of Gnome)

Question - With this change, what is the difference between SUSE and Red Hat - with respect to the way they look at KDE?

RedHat's KDE looks like Gnome (Bluecurve). SUSE's KDE looks like KDE. Amdreas

On Fri, Nov 11, 2005 at 12:00:28AM +0100, wozzeck@katamail.com wrote:

I'll change this opinion if "people from SUSE/Novell will tell us" what is going on.

Just don't panic and calm down. KDE isn't gone, and SUSE isn't dead. Sonja -- Sonja Krause-Harder (skh@suse.de) Research & Development SUSE Linux Products GmbH

Sonja Krause-Harder wrote:

On Fri, Nov 11, 2005 at 12:00:28AM +0100, wozzeck@katamail.com wrote:

...

I'll change this opinion if "people from SUSE/Novell will tell us" what is going on.

Just don't panic and calm down. KDE isn't gone, and SUSE isn't dead.

Sonja

Sonja, Panic never helps. I like SuSE and i want it to stay. Essentially i write this to keep what i value so much. But i have to agree with Stockman. SuSE is not dead (yet?) but it will be if it is going to become redhat2. Not supporting the polished desktop i love is just the latest move in a serie that started with crippling multimedia support. But Americans don't like what's invented elsewhere. In the big American company i work for (and that is almost a complete Redhat show) i promote(d) SuSE. A large amount of the people with linux desktops overhere use SuSE because it is a better deskop system. As a side note - this is while we have an official internal linux distro based on Redhat using KDE by default because of its usability. I'm not panicking, but i feel dissappointed and driven elsewhere. Peter

On Fri, Nov 11, 2005 at 12:48:28AM +0100, Sonja Krause-Harder wrote:

On Fri, Nov 11, 2005 at 12:00:28AM +0100, wozzeck@katamail.com wrote:

...

I'll change this opinion if "people from SUSE/Novell will tell us" what is going on.

Just don't panic and calm down. KDE isn't gone, and SUSE isn't dead.

Lol, everyone fears change. Hell even I fear it at times. Novell bought SUSE, I was afraid of what would happen to my favorite distro. But I didn't freak out, I waited and gave it a shot. SUSE makes an OpenSUSE project. I cringe and think of how it could become craphat. It didn't, I was Ok. SUSE announces that corporate versions are going to use Gnome as default. I stayed calm this time and everyone else freaked out. So to relax I went phishing on the list and got some zingers. Lol. (You know who you are ben)... Change is something everyone fears because they can't control it and when you can't control something it's not just your ego, but your world, and people are afraid of the un-known. Whenever the change of anything happens, people are afraid, panic, and make themselves look like they are just coming down from LSD. I know, I've been there too, and rumors start up mighty quick. Happens any time anything changes. -Allen

Sonja

-- Sonja Krause-Harder (skh@suse.de) Research & Development SUSE Linux Products GmbH

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On Friday 11 November 2005 15:23, Rafa Grimán wrote:

- all those of us that NEED KDE: it will STILL ne there

KDE will still be included. Fine. But will it get the same attention and _funding_ from SUSE as it used to? Considering that a lot of KDE development is being sponsored by SUSE, would you be willing to believe that this support is not going to cease sometime in the future, sooner or later? Yeah, you'll have KDE in SUSE. But what if it's not KDE as we know it? Less financial support means slower development, less bug fixing, KDE will lag behind. And it seemed that it really had a shot, with qt4 and x.org transparency, KDE4 would kick ass. Vista ass. Can you picture Gnome being able to do that? I seriously doubt that. I'd be very glad to be wrong about this. I don't want to change distro. ########################################### Prezentul mesaj constituie o Informatie confidentiala si este proprietatea exclusiva a OTP BANK ROMANIA S.A. Mesajul se adreseaza numai persoanei fizice sau juridice mentionata ca destinatara, precum si altor persoane autorizate sa-l primeasca. In cazul in care nu sunteti destinatarul vizat, va aducem la cunostinta ca dezvaluirea, copierea, distribuirea sau initierea unor actiuni pe baza prezentei informatii sunt strict interzise si atrag raspunderea civila si/ sau penala. Daca ati primit acest mesaj dintr-o eroare, va rugam sa ne anuntati imediat, ca raspuns la mesajul de fata, si sa-l stergeti apoi din sistemul dvs. The content of this communication is classified as OTP BANK ROMANIA S.A. Confidential and Proprietary Information. The content of this communication is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and others authorized to receive it. It may contain confidential or legally privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you received this communication in error please notify us immediately by responding to this communication then delete it from your system. ###########################################

On Fri, 2005-11-11 at 17:24 +0200, Silviu Marin-Caea wrote:

On Friday 11 November 2005 15:23, Rafa Grimán wrote:

...

- all those of us that NEED KDE: it will STILL ne there

KDE will still be included. Fine.

But will it get the same attention and _funding_ from SUSE as it used to? Considering that a lot of KDE development is being sponsored by SUSE, would you be willing to believe that this support is not going to cease sometime in the future, sooner or later?

Based on http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?p=2142 , I don't think so. It seems like Novell investors are pushing for standardization, and Novell has chosen to focus on GNOME. If Novell changed its mind to focus on KDE, I think they would have to sell Ximian.

Yeah, you'll have KDE in SUSE. But what if it's not KDE as we know it? Less financial support means slower development, less bug fixing, KDE will lag behind.

It also sounds like that Novell has told SUSE to rely on the community (i.e., opensuse) for future KDE development, thus leading in part to the culture clash described in the article. Mantel's departure hasn't helped either (the article contrasts Mantel with "Ximian knuckle-draggers")

And it seemed that it really had a shot, with qt4 and x.org transparency, KDE4 would kick ass. Vista ass. Can you picture Gnome being able to do that? I seriously doubt that.

Fedora has shown that a community can push Red Hat in certain directions. But even if the opensuse community is able to organize to push SUSE to advance KDE, the results may be rather messy.

I'd be very glad to be wrong about this.

Me too.

I almost hate to get involved in this discussion but here goes. I love KDE because it is USEABLE. Gnome is NOT. The gnome developers may know how to program. The system seems very stable. BUT, the usability factor is AWFUL. I almost welcome this change and hope it will help put some of SuSE's great usability features into gnome although I doubt it. RedHat has been using it since I can remember (version 5.2) and it still has the same basic lousy usability as it did then. I was just watching a video about Blender on the net and the person giving the presentation mentioned how he used Photoshop when someone asked him why he didn't use The GIMP. He replied that The GIMP is a great program but it has a terrible interface (along with the rest of gnome in my opinion). No one will stay with Linux longer than a day if the gnome desktop is what they have compared to M$. Like it or not, Microsoft knows usability even if they can't design a stable system and for the majority of PC users that is ALL that matters to them. Just my two cents. Again hope this change can help great programs become useable for the average PC user (the one who is used to the only thing they know, M$, good or not). -----Original Message----- From: Philipp Thomas [mailto:pth@suse.de] Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 2:24 PM To: opensuse@opensuse.org Subject: Re: [opensuse] Standardising on *GNOME*!!! How *could* you.....!!!! On Fri, 11 Nov 2005 17:24:23 +0200, Silviu Marin-Caea wrote:

Less financial support means slower development, less bug fixing, KDE will lag behind.

Why do you think there will be less support.

I'd be very glad to be wrong about this.

AFAIK, you *are* wrong about this :) Philipp --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org

Op vrijdag 11 november 2005 16:24, schreef Silviu Marin-Caea:

But will it get the same attention and _funding_ from SUSE as it used to?   Considering that a lot of KDE development is being sponsored by SUSE, would you be willing to believe that this support is not going to cease sometime in the future, sooner or later?

Now imagine, that Novell must be hiring people again, because NLD sells so well, what skills shoulld those people have. Of course computer knowlegde and knowing gnome will be a pro.... (because NLD sells so well due to gnome....) At end there will only be the current kde-ers in suse, and that will be getting less with time. Than what will happen to e.g. yast and kde support? Would be nice to hear something about this scenario.... -- Richard Bos Without a home the journey is endless

On Fri, Nov 11, 2005 at 12:00:28AM +0100, wozzeck@katamail.com wrote:

According to me, the verb "support" means contributing to the development of the software. The correct verb to describe Novell position is "INCLUDE". Yes, it seems to me that Novell is going only to include KDE in SUSE and nothing more. I'll change this opinion if "people from SUSE/Novell will tell us" what is going on.

See also: http://www.novell.com/prblogs/index.php?title=kde_and_gnome&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1 cheers, Sonja -- Sonja Krause-Harder (skh@suse.de) Research & Development SUSE Linux Products GmbH