[opensuse] fsh and distros
An annoying problem came up recently when discussing Linux distros. A dedicated Mac user told me he'd never change to Linux because every distro is different. What he meant was that he has Ubuntu on a vm and I was showing him some openSUSE stuff. He was lost when he needed to look at /var/log/syslog because on openSUSE it gave him an error. He had already made his point. Is there any communication between distro devs as to where stuff goes? It seems to be anywhere you like, despite e.g. that the fsh saying it should be /var/log/messages The example we were working on was bind 9, the latest version of which is not available on Ubuntu, so he was trying to compile from source. The Ubuntu bind9 apt-get stuff creates /etc/bind for config files, openSUSE uses /etc and the official bind docs suggest /srv/named/etc. But that's just the start. The directory could be /var/lib/named or anywhere else you can think of. Then is it /etc/init.d/bind9 start, /etc/init.d/bind start, /etc/rc.d/init.d/bind9 start, service bind start, service bind9 start, service named start, /usr/sbin/named -c /etc/named.conf, start bind, start bind9, rcnamed start, /etc/init.d/named start. . .Should it run bind:bind, named:named, root:named, root something else. . . On a mac, this doesn't arise. He said. I think he has a good point. Is this the price we pay to be able to have it anyway we like? L x -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Sun, 2011-12-18 at 17:05 +0100, lynn wrote:
An annoying problem came up recently when discussing Linux distros. A dedicated Mac user told me he'd never change to Linux because every distro is different. What he meant was that he has Ubuntu on a vm and I was showing him some openSUSE stuff. He was lost when he needed to look at /var/log/syslog because on openSUSE it gave him an error. He had already made his point.
/var/log/syslog??? What is that. I'm on openSUSE 12.1 and I have /var/log/messages; I don't have a /var/log/syslog. It is /var/log/messages on every distro I've seen. Anyway, I think he has a *strong* point. That in 2011 I still have to grep system logs is *STUPID*. That there isn't a decent log viewer/browser is ridiculous. Much like how there isn't a quasi-universal and decent interface to at/cron.
Is there any communication between distro devs as to where stuff goes? It seems to be anywhere you like, despite e.g. that the fsh saying it should be /var/log/messages
Yes, most distributions are very similar with the Debian/'Redhat' split being the big divide; that basically groups distributions into the Debian-Ubuntu-MyriadUbuntuDeriviates and the RHEL-CentOS-SLES-openSUSE-Fedora families. As long as you stay within the family 99.44% of things are found in the same place with only the occasional divergence as they move to things like systemd at differing paces.
The example we were working on was bind 9, the latest version of which is not available on Ubuntu,
Of course.
Ubuntu bind9 apt-get stuff creates /etc/bind for config files, openSUSE uses /etc and the official bind docs suggest /srv/named/etc. But that's just the start. The directory could be /var/lib/named or anywhere else you can think of. Then is it /etc/init.d/bind9 start, /etc/init.d/bind start, /etc/rc.d/init.d/bind9 start, service bind start, service bind9 start, service named start, /usr/sbin/named -c /etc/named.conf, start bind, start bind9, rcnamed start, /etc/init.d/named start. . .Should it run bind:bind, named:named, root:named, root something else. . .
He is correct. Pick a family and stay there; or more simply, don't waste time using Ubuntu.
On a mac, this doesn't arise. He said.
Bogus. Mac isn't much more than yet-another-distribution with its own proprietary glop of crud dumped on top [Mac OS/X is BSD, which is just UNIX/LINUXs brother-by-another-mother].
I think he has a good point. Is this the price we pay to be able to have it anyway we like?
Sure. Give people choices, and they'll make choices. -- System & Network Administrator [ LPI & NCLA ] http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com OpenGroupware Developer http://www.opengroupware.us Adam Tauno Williams -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 18/12/11 14:04, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
Anyway, I think he has a *strong* point. That in 2011 I still have to grep system logs is *STUPID*. That there isn't a decent log viewer/browser is ridiculous. Much like how there isn't a quasi-universal and decent interface to at/cron.
That is what "journald" is all about, coming soon to openSUSE, however you loose the ability to "grep" that particular logs provided by journald because they are in binary format, However, you can still use and grep traditional syslog files. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Sat, 2011-12-17 at 14:31 -0300, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
On 18/12/11 14:04, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
Anyway, I think he has a *strong* point. That in 2011 I still have to grep system logs is *STUPID*. That there isn't a decent log viewer/browser is ridiculous. Much like how there isn't a quasi-universal and decent interface to at/cron. That is what "journald" is all about, coming soon to openSUSE, however
Yep, looking forward to it. No doubt there will be as much whining as there has been about systemd - but it can't get here soon enough IMNSHO.
you loose the ability to "grep" that particular logs provided by journald because they are in binary format,
Who cares. If there are tools that can read the format and the format is Open, whatever. Finally having cryptographically verifiable logs will be awesome. Currently I use syslog-ng to feed log messages into a central PostgreSQL that prevents deletion or update of log records via rules. Text files are hopeless.
However, you can still use and grep traditional syslog files.
Yep. And if I never had to do that again.... I won't shed a single tear. -- System & Network Administrator [ LPI & NCLA ] http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com OpenGroupware Developer http://www.opengroupware.us Adam Tauno Williams -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 18/12/11 20:54, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
On Sat, 2011-12-17 at 14:31 -0300, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
On 18/12/11 14:04, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
Anyway, I think he has a *strong* point. That in 2011 I still have to grep system logs is *STUPID*. That there isn't a decent log viewer/browser is ridiculous. Much like how there isn't a quasi-universal and decent interface to at/cron. That is what "journald" is all about, coming soon to openSUSE, however
Yep, looking forward to it. No doubt there will be as much whining as there has been about systemd - but it can't get here soon enough IMNSHO.
So you are one of those users the journald proposal targets, those who have to utter incantations to manage a large collection of ever growing logs , usually in a painful way heh :-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 12/17/2011 12:31 PM, Cristian Rodríguez pecked at the keyboard and wrote:
On 18/12/11 14:04, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
Anyway, I think he has a *strong* point. That in 2011 I still have to grep system logs is *STUPID*. That there isn't a decent log viewer/browser is ridiculous. Much like how there isn't a quasi-universal and decent interface to at/cron.
That is what "journald" is all about, coming soon to openSUSE, however you loose the ability to "grep" that particular logs provided by journald because they are in binary format,
That's really smart. Provide log info no one can grep. What program does one use to search the info.
However, you can still use and grep traditional syslog files.
-- Ken Schneider SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Sunday 18 December 2011 22:38:54 Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:
That is what "journald" is all about, coming soon to openSUSE, however you loose the ability to "grep" that particular logs provided by journald because they are in binary format,
That's really smart. Provide log info no one can grep. What program does one use to search the info.
To me that's not the major problem - any database will have tools to extract data from it. The problem comes when things go wrong, when a system crash partially corrupts data for example. The more complex you make your storage, the less likely you are of ever being able to extract anything from it. Modern file systems are good examples of that: terribly nice when they work, but if they fail you can more or less forget about being able to "undelete" anything. Logs are nice to have, in the aftermath of a crash Anders -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Anders Johansson wrote:
On Sunday 18 December 2011 22:38:54 Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:
That is what "journald" is all about, coming soon to openSUSE, however you loose the ability to "grep" that particular logs provided by journald because they are in binary format,
That's really smart. Provide log info no one can grep. What program does one use to search the info.
To me that's not the major problem - any database will have tools to extract data from it.
The problem comes when things go wrong, when a system crash partially corrupts data for example. The more complex you make your storage, the less likely you are of ever being able to extract anything from it. Modern file systems are good examples of that: terribly nice when they work, but if they fail you can more or less forget about being able to "undelete" anything.
Logs are nice to have, in the aftermath of a crash
Occasionally they are also the only useful interface (log-scraping). Kludgy, but it works. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (0.7°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 18/12/11 18:04, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
On Sun, 2011-12-18 at 17:05 +0100, lynn wrote:
An annoying problem came up recently when discussing Linux distros. A dedicated Mac user told me he'd never change to Linux because every distro is different. What he meant was that he has Ubuntu on a vm and I was showing him some openSUSE stuff. He was lost when he needed to look at /var/log/syslog because on openSUSE it gave him an error. He had already made his point. /var/log/syslog??? What is that. It's ubuntu for /var/log/messages.
I'm on openSUSE 12.1 and I have /var/log/messages; I don't have a /var/log/syslog. It is /var/log/messages on every distro I've seen. Not on Ubuntu though.
Anyway, I think he has a *strong* point. That in 2011 I still have to grep system logs is *STUPID*. That there isn't a decent log viewer/browser is ridiculous. Much like how there isn't a quasi-universal and decent interface to at/cron.
Is there any communication between distro devs as to where stuff goes? It seems to be anywhere you like, despite e.g. that the fsh saying it should be /var/log/messages Yes, most distributions are very similar with the Debian/'Redhat' split being the big divide; that basically groups distributions into the Debian-Ubuntu-MyriadUbuntuDeriviates and the RHEL-CentOS-SLES-openSUSE-Fedora families. As long as you stay within the family 99.44% of things are found in the same place with only the occasional divergence as they move to things like systemd at differing paces.
The example we were working on was bind 9, the latest version of which is not available on Ubuntu, Of course. Bind9.8 from source on Ubuntu eh. What a way to spend a Sunday afternoon!
Ubuntu bind9 apt-get stuff creates /etc/bind for config files, openSUSE uses /etc and the official bind docs suggest /srv/named/etc. But that's just the start. The directory could be /var/lib/named or anywhere else you can think of. Then is it /etc/init.d/bind9 start, /etc/init.d/bind start, /etc/rc.d/init.d/bind9 start, service bind start, service bind9 start, service named start, /usr/sbin/named -c /etc/named.conf, start bind, start bind9, rcnamed start, /etc/init.d/named start. . .Should it run bind:bind, named:named, root:named, root something else. . . He is correct. Pick a family and stay there; or more simply, don't waste time using Ubuntu.
On a mac, this doesn't arise. He said. Bogus. Mac isn't much more than yet-another-distribution with its own proprietary glop of crud dumped on top [Mac OS/X is BSD, which is just UNIX/LINUXs brother-by-another-mother].
I call it a crashintosh. He doesn't like that. But it was very expensive and he can plug his iphone into it. That's all that counts.
I think he has a good point. Is this the price we pay to be able to have it anyway we like? Sure. Give people choices, and they'll make choices.
It did make me look a bit stupid. On the 'phone I kept telling him /var/log/messages. Then rcnamed start. Then the communication got to the stage of total breakdown. In the end, wouldn't it be better to have just one, maybe 2 different ways to start bind9? I still think we ought to control where we put stuff and update the fsh. L x -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 12/18/2011 12:36 PM, lynn wrote:
It did make me look a bit stupid. On the 'phone I kept telling him /var/log/messages. Then rcnamed start. Then the communication got to the stage of total breakdown.
That is why you do not say any such file name literally. You say "syslog" and expect them to know how to find their syslog. Don't want to have to be responsible for that? No problem. Then don't use linux. Which is exactly their stated plan and is for them exactly the correct one. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Sun, 2011-12-18 at 17:05 +0100, lynn wrote:
An annoying problem came up recently when discussing Linux distros. A dedicated Mac user told me he'd never change to Linux because every distro is different. What he meant was that he has Ubuntu on a vm and I was showing him some openSUSE stuff. He was lost when he needed to look at /var/log/syslog because on openSUSE it gave him an error. He had already made his point.
Is there any communication between distro devs as to where stuff goes? It seems to be anywhere you like, despite e.g. that the fsh saying it should be /var/log/messages
Pointless
The example we were working on was bind 9, the latest version of which is not available on Ubuntu, so he was trying to compile from source. The Ubuntu bind9 apt-get stuff creates /etc/bind for config files, openSUSE uses /etc and the official bind docs suggest /srv/named/etc. But that's just the start. The directory could be /var/lib/named or anywhere else you can think of. Then is it /etc/init.d/bind9 start, /etc/init.d/bind start, /etc/rc.d/init.d/bind9 start, service bind start, service bind9 start, service named start, /usr/sbin/named -c /etc/named.conf, start bind, start bind9, rcnamed start, /etc/init.d/named start. . .Should it run bind:bind, named:named, root:named, root something else. . .
On a mac, this doesn't arise. He said.
I think he has a good point. Is this the price we pay to be able to have it anyway we like? L x
There are several sides to it. You MAc-user said he'll never change to Linux. Well the kernel doesn't show that many difference between the distro, from a users point-of-view. Difference between distro's is about the same difference between HP-UX, solaris or between window-95 or windown-98. Or even within one distro-release, KDE or Gnome. Regarding Ubuntu, most of the people i know who are using it,are just capable of putting the install-cd into the drive..... If those end-users can work with it, and are happy with it, who am i to tell them otherwise? At the other hand, basic configuration (nfs, dhcp, logs, etc etc) can be converged to a single layout. But many distro's don't even follow the FSH, eventhough it is rather outdated, and certainly needs a refresh, and perhaps extensions. hw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
lynn said the following on 12/18/2011 11:05 AM:
The example we were working on was bind 9, the latest version of which is not available on Ubuntu, so he was trying to compile from source. The Ubuntu bind9 apt-get stuff creates /etc/bind for config files, openSUSE uses /etc and the official bind docs suggest /srv/named/etc. But that's just the start. The directory could be /var/lib/named or anywhere else you can think of. Then is it /etc/init.d/bind9 start, /etc/init.d/bind start, /etc/rc.d/init.d/bind9 start, service bind start, service bind9 start, service named start, /usr/sbin/named -c /etc/named.conf, start bind, start bind9, rcnamed start, /etc/init.d/named start. . .Should it run bind:bind, named:named, root:named, root something else. . .
On a mac, this doesn't arise. He said.
I think he has a good point. Is this the price we pay to be able to have it anyway we like?
In one sense yes. In my presentations I often use automobile analogies and I think one applies here. It used to be that cars were for enthusiasts, people who loved them and took them apart and put them back together and bought chrome parts and polished and enhanced and tuned and gadgeted them up. Heck, there were even stores that cater to these people. They did their own oil changes, rotated their own tires, .... all that stuff. no-one called them 'geeks'. But the auto manufacturers needed profits that that meant volume and that meant 'consumerism'. And that led to standardization and "no user serviceable parts inside"[1] and stuff that could not be maintained or modified anyway because it was a 'sealed box'. Chips rather than transistors. And so it goes; the innards get more monolithic and maybe you can't get at them to, for example, replace the batter, anyway. Its about consumerism. This guy's mistake was to try to compile Bind in the first place. If he's so mindful of the MAC then he fits the consumerist model, not the gadgeteer model. Its true that every luxury cruise liner has to have the kitchens, which are greasy and steamy, and the engine rooms, which might be as well. But that's not what the travel agents sell and the passengers are not allowed to see that part of things. When it comes down to it, we're the "Sons of Martha" http://www.mindspring.com/~blackhart/The_Sons_of_Martha.html and that guy was, at heart a Son of Mary. On most of my machines there isn't a /var/log/syslog nor a /var/log/messages. The syslog function, be it rsyslog or syslog-ng, is configured to send to a central machine which has lots of disk space for logs and the tools to examine them. Examine them? Not by human eyes but by automatic tools. Things like 'swatch' I can't think of much that's as boring as going through megabytes of syslog. I've had client which have tools that dump it all into a database and they have viewers that let them sift and sort .. and buqqer that. I don't want to look at that. Marcus Ranum talks of 'artificial ignorance' when dealing with syslogs. Ignore what you know about, the 'norm'. Anyway, on my syslog server I have lots and lots and lots of files; I break things out by service and more, so I don't HAVE to wade though a big syslog or messages file if all I want to see is when someone other than myself logged in to my workstation. The thing about the consumerist mode is that its WYSIWYG. You can't hack it about. You can't put the holding clutch from a Subaru, the powered hydraulic suspension of Citroen, ... you can't pick and chose the bits you like. And on the consumerist computers like Windows and MAC more and more gets tied down, more and more the vendor has done your thinking for you. [1] Call me a bigot but I think only two things should have "no user serviceable parts inside" stamped on them: ping-pong balls and the human head. -- The only secure computer is one that's unplugged, locked in a safe, and buried 20 feet under the ground in a secret location... and I'm not even too sure about that one" - Dennis Huges, FBI. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 12/18/2011 11:05 AM, lynn wrote:
An annoying problem came up recently when discussing Linux distros. A dedicated Mac user told me he'd never change to Linux because every distro is different. What he meant was that he has Ubuntu on a vm and I was showing him some openSUSE stuff. He was lost when he needed to look at /var/log/syslog because on openSUSE it gave him an error. He had already made his point.
Is there any communication between distro devs as to where stuff goes? It seems to be anywhere you like, despite e.g. that the fsh saying it should be /var/log/messages
The example we were working on was bind 9, the latest version of which is not available on Ubuntu, so he was trying to compile from source. The Ubuntu bind9 apt-get stuff creates /etc/bind for config files, openSUSE uses /etc and the official bind docs suggest /srv/named/etc. But that's just the start. The directory could be /var/lib/named or anywhere else you can think of. Then is it /etc/init.d/bind9 start, /etc/init.d/bind start, /etc/rc.d/init.d/bind9 start, service bind start, service bind9 start, service named start, /usr/sbin/named -c /etc/named.conf, start bind, start bind9, rcnamed start, /etc/init.d/named start. . .Should it run bind:bind, named:named, root:named, root something else. . .
On a mac, this doesn't arise. He said.
I think he has a good point. Is this the price we pay to be able to have it anyway we like? L x
If you are going to use Linux, then stop trying to memorize actions and other details by rote. We do not WANT that much uniformity among distros. The only uniformity we want is about principles and standards, not necessarily most details. If you or your user needs to live in such a limited, gilded cage world, then please do not attempt to use linux or any other unix in the first place. That is the answer. If you want to enjoy the benefits of flying a helicopter instead of driving car, then you either have to put in the time and have the ability to learn the far more complex task of flying (and maintaining) a helicopter, or pay someone else to fly for you. There is no other option. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 19/12/11 17:15, Brian K. White wrote:
We do not WANT that much uniformity among distros.
The lack of uniformity, is a mayor problem, at least from my developer point of view, it duplicates a lot of work. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 20 December 2011, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
On 19/12/11 17:15, Brian K. White wrote:
We do not WANT that much uniformity among distros.
The lack of uniformity, is a mayor problem, at least from my developer point of view, it duplicates a lot of work.
Why do we need openSUSE at all? Because it's green? Uniformity is nice where it does not have too much downsides. I'am totally fine that there are distros like Ubuntu or Fedora rapidly throwing away good old unix style to get over some apple/windows users. But isn't Fedora/Ubuntu enough? Do we need a greenish mix of them? What exactly should be the difference between Fedora and openSUSE? cu, Rudi -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 19/12/11 22:05, Rüdiger Meier wrote:
I'am totally fine that there are distros like Ubuntu or Fedora rapidly throwing away good old unix style to get over some apple/windows users.
Do you really think that's the purpose ? let me give you a reality check :-) it is to save development resources (aka money), especially in the long term. On every release, something important changes, old tools have to be updated, maintained and sometimes they simple don't fit any longer, making it "fit" consist in hacking very old code, which is essentially undocumented, full of workarounds rotting every month. Just a quick example https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=729107 (204 packages need update either directly or indirectly) just imagine the pain of dealing with even more older code. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 12/19/2011 8:05 PM, Rüdiger Meier wrote:
On Tuesday 20 December 2011, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
On 19/12/11 17:15, Brian K. White wrote:
We do not WANT that much uniformity among distros.
The lack of uniformity, is a mayor problem, at least from my developer point of view, it duplicates a lot of work.
Why do we need openSUSE at all? Because it's green?
Uniformity is nice where it does not have too much downsides. I'am totally fine that there are distros like Ubuntu or Fedora rapidly throwing away good old unix style to get over some apple/windows users. But isn't Fedora/Ubuntu enough? Do we need a greenish mix of them?
What exactly should be the difference between Fedora and openSUSE?
That right there is the $64,000 question. There used to be a real answer but *suse has been coasting on inertia and declining for a few years. I have not seen any special point to suse in a few years. I use it primarily because back when it was a stand-out distro, I chose it and now I have a ton of servers and all my companies employees are (painfully, oh so stupidly painfully) trained on the details. It simply doesn't suck bad enough yet to be worth the upset switching would cause. Mostly because I can just deal with most things myself. Whatever the distro doesn't do or does poorly or brokenly, it's often easier for me to just fix or work-around than it would be even to generate a bug report. also, I just don't use 90% of the syste, No desktops of any sort, so whole worlds of gnome, kde, networkmanager, applications, video drivers, wifi drivers, etc all that stuff can be broken and it simply doesn't affect me. So for me, there is hardly any reason at all to use *suse. Yast and the overall thoroughness of integration was it hands-down in the past. For a desktop user yast may still be way out ahead of all other distros system management tools. My few desktops are fairly minimalistic ubuntu with lxde or xfce. sysadmin is kind of spotty. I usually have to manually install wicd and dink with it a while to get wifi working. I usually have to dink with bootloader and xorg settings manually to get a working gui at all (yay gma500) so sax2 may also be a pretty non-trivial suse advantage. But generally, regardless of distro, I have to do a lot of work to get a fully working install unless I'm willing to live with incredibly limited hardware choices and even software choices (keep the ancient stock linux that came preinstalled with proprietary drivers and media software that no longer exist...) So as far as I'm concerned they all suck a bit in that regard. Nothing especially bad about suse. OBS is one very very good feature. That is worth a lot right there. It's open source so you don't have to use suse to use obs, but I like to pput credit where it belongs. OBS, the software, is a fantastic thing, and OBS the service, allowing such effortless use by any random user on a public build and publish farm is really outstanding. But a lot of what makes OBS so killer (maintain your code in one spot and it will be almost effortlessly installable everywhere, on different versions and platforms of hosts) is obviated by the freebsd/gentoo ports system. So, OBS is really great but isn't necessarily the only way to skin that cat. SuseStudio seems kind of amazing but in reality, I haven't found a real use for it. I made a few iso's but in the end it just seemed like a lot of work to get something less efficient and less flexible than just customizing a regular install a little. The regular installer already has some pretty powerful customization and automation features. So it's far more efficient and supportable to use the standard official net install iso than to use a customized one. OK so, no really strong advantages. Any actual disadvantages? One minor one. In the world of rapidly changing software and hardware, it is pricelessly valuable to be using the same things as other people, because you can't pay anyone enough to dig in and diagnose your personal problems. Only numbers gives you any chance to find answers to problems. When your wifi doesn't work, unless you are lucky and it's a simple issue you can debug yourself, you can't get the guy who designed the motherboard, or the wifi card, or the motherboard bios, or the wifi card driver, etc.. to come diagnose your problem. The only chance you have is if a lot of other people have the same problem, then it gets looked into by one off the rare people who actually can look into it. Then you get to benefit from being in the group of people that solution applies to. If you're using a less-common distribution, you're more on your own. Well fedora/centos and ubuntu and the other debian derivatives are certainly more widely installed than *suse. But opensuse at least (NOT SLE) is at least somewhat widely used, 4th after ubuntu, fedora, & debian on distrowatch, but 4th is still pretty good. That's a lot of fellow users to commiserate with. So While it's easier to find other people with the same problems and easier to find fixes to them on ubuntu than anything else at the moment. Many of those things do actually translate relatively easily to any other distro and for those that don't opensuse at least is still large enough that you are rarely really on your own. So, IMO, there are no strong disadvantages to suse either. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 12/21/2011 12:25 AM, Brian K. White wrote:
On 12/19/2011 8:05 PM, Rüdiger Meier wrote:
On Tuesday 20 December 2011, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
On 19/12/11 17:15, Brian K. White wrote:
We do not WANT that much uniformity among distros.
The lack of uniformity, is a mayor problem, at least from my developer point of view, it duplicates a lot of work.
Why do we need openSUSE at all? Because it's green?
Uniformity is nice where it does not have too much downsides. I'am totally fine that there are distros like Ubuntu or Fedora rapidly throwing away good old unix style to get over some apple/windows users. But isn't Fedora/Ubuntu enough? Do we need a greenish mix of them?
What exactly should be the difference between Fedora and openSUSE?
That right there is the $64,000 question. The consultancy down the road are hiring. It's a deal more than you're earning now, less work and a company car. You're OK with Yast and openSUSE. They use Debian.
Job vacancies are beginning to specify not Linux, but a distro. L x L x -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, 20 Dec 2011 01:45:17 +0530, Brian K. White
If you or your user needs to live in such a limited, gilded cage world, then please do not attempt to use linux or any other unix in the first place. That is the answer.
If you want to enjoy the benefits of flying a helicopter instead of driving car, then you either have to put in the time and have the ability to learn the far more complex task of flying (and maintaining) a helicopter, or pay someone else to fly for you. There is no other option.
i'd agree as far as more adventurous distros are concerned, like openSUSE or fedora, but there's pretty stable ones like debian which rarely change things around once a system has been established. if one doesn't like the idea to keep learning and adjusting, he doesn't have to go back to M$; debian would be a much better option IMO. that's why i'm using it for servers which i don't interact with every day and want to keep running with the least trouble or involvement. -- phani. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
participants (11)
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Adam Tauno Williams -
Anders Johansson -
Anton Aylward -
Brian K. White -
Cristian Rodríguez -
Hans Witvliet -
Ken Schneider - openSUSE -
lynn -
Per Jessen -
phanisvara das -
Rüdiger Meier