[opensuse] The state of openSUSE
Greetings all, I would like to share some of the concerns I have about the state of SUSE Linux / The openSUSE project. I hope this does not come across as a rant as it is not intended as such, but to point out issues in the hope that something may be done about them. The perceived problem : Declining product quality Obviously there is the unfortunate situation of 10.1 where critical flaws were allowed to remain in the final product, making it in my opinion unsuitable for use by people who don't know what they're doing, probably the first version of suse for a very long time for which this applies. I have not heard anything about what steps are being taken to ensure that this will not happen again, which has perhaps lead to the feeling amongst some that this is the sign of things to come. In SUSE versions in the past what has set it apart from certain other distributions is that it was a coherent product, it was an OS, not just a collection of certain package versions. From 10.0 we no longer have a default desktop environment. This is not so much a problem in and of itself, what does seem to be a problem is the decreasing amount of integration of either popular DE with the rest of the system. In the past 3 or 4 years what has really improved in terms of the value added by SUSE? Every 6 months we get a new set of packages with exactly the same suse additions. Very little has really changed since the 7.x days compared to prior to that point. Possible causes: 1: Lack of vision / communication What causes the above observations? Is there really no vision of where SUSE Linux / openSUSE should be in 2-3 years time. What tangible improvements will be achieved in that time? If there is no such vision it would explain the apparent degeneration and plodding progress towards nothing in particular with just new versions being packaged and bugs being fixed. If there is such a vision, why has it not been communicated to the community? It would go a long way towards elevating perhaps unfounded fears about what the situation will be in the future. And without such communication of what needs to be achieved in the long term, how can people contribute towards achieving it. 2: Difficulty of community involvement - Communication (Lack of) Without communication of what the long term goals are, people generally have no idea of what they can be working on to help. The google summer of code project suggestions were good, but there is no reason these sort of things should be restricted to google summer of code. Suggestions of projects that could be taken on by community members would be helpful. - Documentation (Lack of) It is difficult for people to work on things useful for SUSE if SUSE specific things are undocumented. Not everyone has time to read reams of code to determine how to use something. An example: libzypp - wonderful (apparently) new library for package management related stuff. Is there any api documentation beyond the automatically generated docs in the -devel package? No. Is there any documentation about what it actually does? No. Is there any documentation for packagers etc wishing to make use of new features like add on products? No. If any such documentation exists internally why is it not shared? Solutions: - Communicate the long term strategies to the community. If they really do not exist then leverage the community in deciding upon some. - Share internal documentation. if it really does not exist then invest in producing some. Otherwise it does not matter how wonderful technology is, it will not be used. - Provide suggestions for what people can actually usefully do. Benji --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
I'm completely agree with you. An add one more: I've got the feeling that one mistake has been try to include more than enough things. So, we've several examples (IMHO), such as: - Packet management. YaST (packet manager module), YUM, Smart, APT4RPM, Kick.. ¿are really needed all of these? Sometimes I feel it as a joke. I think the way is concentrate the efforts in _ONE_ package management solution. - YaST. Without any kind of doubts, YaST has been, is and will the main strengh of SUSE. So... ¿Is it recieved the needed atention and developing improvement? Personally, I don't see a great improvements since 8.2/9.0 versions. I repeat: IMHO. Obviously I appreciate sincerely the efforts of developers (SUSE team and contributors from community) but there're things to improve. So, I throw a hard question to resolve: ¿Why Ubuntu is more popular tha SUSE despite thier young life? Maybe the response of that question can help the grow and improving of our community.
¿Why Ubuntu is more popular tha SUSE despite thier young life?
Maybe the response of that question can help the grow and improving of our community.
One HUGE factor with EVERYONE I know that uses Ubuntu or Kubuntu is... _package_management_. Ubuntu uses apt with the Synaptic front end. It's simple and easy to use. Several potential new users I've coached in Linux have tried out a few distributions including SUSE, and settled on Ubuntu (or Kubuntu), and when I ask why... they say that SUSE was great, easy to install and use right up until they tried to use the package management tools. YaST was/is a brilliant installer, but once you want to manage 3rd party apps... SUSE falls to pieces for a new user. Ubuntu/Kubuntu comes with Synaptic preconfigured and ready to go. A new user simply has to start it up, click a few things as explained in easy to read instructions and they are up and running with literally thousands of applications avaiilable to be installed. They can even easily upgrade to the next major release with Synaptic. Compare that to SUSE... you get YaST with is OK for managing apps on the DVD/CDs. If you want to add in 3rd party applications, the instructions for how to do this are spotty and almost impossible to follow (if you've never done it before). You can try out SMART, but again... horrible documentation, and loads of places where things go completely wrong (for an inexperienced user). Thanks goes out to "Guru" for providing a repack of SMART/SMART-GUI with the 3rd perty repositories already preconfigured. I can provide my friends a simple step by step how-to to download the Smart stuff from the Guru site and get up and running with being able to install apps... and still, even with the repack, Smart - for a new user unfamiliar with Linux - is unweildy and confusing. Otherwise - based on feedback I've received from new users - SUSE and Ubuntu stack up fairly well against each other. So... I'll say it again... package management... it's very badly implemented in SUSE from the standpoint of a new user (who wants to add something not included on the DVD). Most of use here probably don't even realise it since we're used to rpm -ivh at the CLI, or can adapt to the rather odd eccentricities of Zen and/or Smart. We (as a group) have lost touch with the users who are unfamiliar with SUSE and/or Linux in general. One thing that is working well... if a new user clicks on an rpm link on a webpage, the Zen package manager does a nice neat job of installing the RPM for them. But.. this doesn't solve the issue of the 3rd party software repositories... the place where Ubuntu really thrashes SUSE. Of course this is all a combination of my opinion, and observations of new users struggling to move away from Windows... YMMV and all that. C. . --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
On Thu, 2006-07-20 at 11:11 +0200, Clayton wrote:
¿Why Ubuntu is more popular tha SUSE despite thier young life?
Maybe the response of that question can help the grow and improving of our community.
One HUGE factor with EVERYONE I know that uses Ubuntu or Kubuntu is... _package_management_. Ubuntu uses apt with the Synaptic front end. It's simple and easy to use. Several potential new users I've coached in Linux have tried out a few distributions including SUSE, and settled on Ubuntu (or Kubuntu), and when I ask why... they say that SUSE was great, easy to install and use right up until they tried to use the package management tools.
YaST was/is a brilliant installer, but once you want to manage 3rd party apps... SUSE falls to pieces for a new user. Ubuntu/Kubuntu comes with Synaptic preconfigured and ready to go. A new user simply has to start it up, click a few things as explained in easy to read instructions and they are up and running with literally thousands of applications avaiilable to be installed. They can even easily upgrade to the next major release with Synaptic.
Compare that to SUSE... you get YaST with is OK for managing apps on the DVD/CDs. If you want to add in 3rd party applications, the instructions for how to do this are spotty and almost impossible to follow (if you've never done it before). You can try out SMART, but again... horrible documentation, and loads of places where things go completely wrong (for an inexperienced user).
Is there any reason that YaST package management couldn't have a dynamic selection list of third party repos? Kind of how YOU worked prior to 10.1, you were presented with a pulldown list of mirrors for the updates. With a dynamic selection list one could pick and chose what third party repos to include in the PM and the list could be one that only includes repos that were registered with openSUSE. This would certainly make it much easier to add third party repos and people new to openSUSE would more inclined to stay here. This is just an idea on how to better server the community as far as third party repos are concerned. -- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Am Donnerstag, 20. Juli 2006 11:11 schrieb Clayton:
One HUGE factor with EVERYONE I know that uses Ubuntu or Kubuntu is... _package_management_.
I second this. The strength of Ubuntu is package management. I did try [K| X]ubuntu many times but always went back to SUSE. That's because detection of my hardware worked perfectly with SUSE (means: everything worked out of the box) while I had to configure most of my essential laptop stuff manually (ipw2100, suspend-to-ram, bluetooth etc). I think that ZMD would be able to catch up with Ubuntu, if it worked flawlessly and much faster. Furthermore, the GUI tools need to be revised. Installing software with just having an endless list of thousands of packages is just useless. Maybe the ZMD frontend should look like synaptic. Dani --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Torsdag 20 juli 2006 14:13 skrev Daniel Bertolo:
I second this. The strength of Ubuntu is package management.
I agree, but "package management" covers a lot of ground - let's try to be more specific. I think it's not so much yast/zen/rug being bad is the issue - now that they work - and hopefully they'll have better performance in 10.2.. I think mostly what's a problem is finding and managing repos. It would help a lot if more of the 3rd party repos could join under the packman umbrella perhaps. Guru's Smart package might help a bit, but something along the lines of Automatix/Easy-ubuntu would be really helpful. Martin / cb400f --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
* Martin Schlander <suse@linuxin.dk> [Jul 20. 2006 15:10]:
Torsdag 20 juli 2006 14:13 skrev Daniel Bertolo:
I second this. The strength of Ubuntu is package management.
I agree, but "package management" covers a lot of ground - let's try to be more specific.
I think it's not so much yast/zen/rug being bad is the issue - now that they work - and hopefully they'll have better performance in 10.2..
I think mostly what's a problem is finding and managing repos. It would help a lot if more of the 3rd party repos could join under the packman umbrella perhaps.
I'd like to see some specific enhancement requests in bugzilla for this. Klaus --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Klaus Kaempf wrote:
* Martin Schlander <suse@linuxin.dk> [Jul 20. 2006 15:10]:
Torsdag 20 juli 2006 14:13 skrev Daniel Bertolo:
I second this. The strength of Ubuntu is package management. I agree, but "package management" covers a lot of ground - let's try to be more specific.
I think it's not so much yast/zen/rug being bad is the issue - now that they work - and hopefully they'll have better performance in 10.2..
I think mostly what's a problem is finding and managing repos. It would help a lot if more of the 3rd party repos could join under the packman umbrella perhaps.
I'd like to see some specific enhancement requests in bugzilla for this.
A bugzilla ticket for community repositories to join Packman ...? huh? oO The problem is, once again, legal. It was pretty much the first thing I tried to address in the scope of openSUSE.org It's not possible, because most community repositories (at least Packman and mine) contain packages that Novell cannot link to, for legal reasons (e.g. packages like lame, mad, ...). Well, actually, it's for potential patent infringement problems (not copyright issues). Yes, even *linking* or referencing the Packman or guru (or whatever) repository is a potential problem for Novell. I think it is supposed to be checked by Novell's legal dept but is still pending since half a year. I might be wrong though, I know I asked Adrian about it not so long ago, but I don't remember what the state was (just back from 3 weeks holidays, I flushed my brain from anything computer-related ;)). cheers - -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ <pascal.bleser@skynet.be> <guru@unixtech.be> _\_v The more things change, the more they stay insane. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEwWIjr3NMWliFcXcRAvdEAJwLCXWXzCbZOC4JubpAyM792gW/ngCfRATe 9gEMxD4/NysxKChVY1mrcxQ= =Ks7q -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Hi, Pascal Bleser schrieb:
It's not possible, because most community repositories (at least Packman and mine) contain packages that Novell cannot link to, for legal reasons (e.g. packages like lame, mad, ...). Well, actually, it's for potential patent infringement problems (not copyright issues).
Binaries of (L)GPL software that implement patented technology are actually in violation of both the patents and the copyright license (even authors of such (L)GPL software are often not aware of this). It's Section 7 of the GPL and section 11 of the LGPL. This is the reason why the MP3 decoding stuff on the Add-On product is handled via the RealPlayer and not the much more obvious and well-known (L)GPL decoders. Andreas Hanke --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Hi, On Sat, 22 Jul 2006, Pascal Bleser wrote:
Klaus Kaempf wrote:
* Martin Schlander <suse@linuxin.dk> [Jul 20. 2006 15:10]:
Torsdag 20 juli 2006 14:13 skrev Daniel Bertolo:
I second this. The strength of Ubuntu is package management. I agree, but "package management" covers a lot of ground - let's try to be more specific.
I think it's not so much yast/zen/rug being bad is the issue - now that they work - and hopefully they'll have better performance in 10.2..
I think mostly what's a problem is finding and managing repos. It would help a lot if more of the 3rd party repos could join under the packman umbrella perhaps.
I'd like to see some specific enhancement requests in bugzilla for this.
A bugzilla ticket for community repositories to join Packman ...? huh? oO
The problem is, once again, legal.
It was pretty much the first thing I tried to address in the scope of openSUSE.org
It's not possible, because most community repositories (at least Packman and mine) contain packages that Novell cannot link to, for legal reasons (e.g. packages like lame, mad, ...). Well, actually, it's for potential patent infringement problems (not copyright issues).
Yes, even *linking* or referencing the Packman or guru (or whatever) repository is a potential problem for Novell.
I think it is supposed to be checked by Novell's legal dept but is still pending since half a year. I might be wrong though, I know I asked Adrian about it not so long ago, but I don't remember what the state was (just back from 3 weeks holidays, I flushed my brain from anything computer-related ;)).
Some time ago, Richard Bos had started to fill a "link directory" with symlinks to "other" apt repositories at ftp.gwdg.de. This got not continued for months, but could give the solution. See the idea at http://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/linux/suse/rmd/ - all "leafs" are symlinks only. Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Pascal Bleser wrote:
[...] It's not possible, because most community repositories (at least Packman and mine) contain packages that Novell cannot link to, for legal reasons (e.g. packages like lame, mad, ...). Well, actually, it's for potential patent infringement problems (not copyright issues).
Yes, even *linking* or referencing the Packman or guru (or whatever) repository is a potential problem for Novell.
If it's a problem for Novell to provide a simple link to your repository (or the packman repository), why are you allowed to publish the packages mentioned above? Because you're not a company? Cheers, Th. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Thomas Hertweck wrote:
Pascal Bleser wrote:
[...] It's not possible, because most community repositories (at least Packman and mine) contain packages that Novell cannot link to, for legal reasons (e.g. packages like lame, mad, ...). Well, actually, it's for potential patent infringement problems (not copyright issues).
Yes, even *linking* or referencing the Packman or guru (or whatever) repository is a potential problem for Novell.
If it's a problem for Novell to provide a simple link to your repository (or the packman repository), why are you allowed to publish the packages mentioned above? Because you're not a company?
Because I (and Packman, and the nice people who host all that) am willing to take the risk and because it's still a little bit of a "legal grey zone". If it was very clear that it is illegal, I wouldn't do so (well, ok, the mad patent vs GPL issue makes it pretty much illegal, but so what). The situation is somewhat different for Novell. It's a company, and it's located in the US, where it only takes some idiot to put his cat into a microwave oven to sue the business that sells it. Novell just doesn't want to take the risk of getting sued. The "risks" I (and others) are taking for the good of the users is certainly not comparable by any means. cheers - -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ <pascal.bleser@skynet.be> <guru@unixtech.be> _\_v The more things change, the more they stay insane. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEwhfKr3NMWliFcXcRAoDOAKCCCuDyM/z3zTeitxaNkPDJTloeDQCffZiK L6ojvm5BwoaUvW6jYiieR0A= =vX8h -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Hi! On 7/22/06, Pascal Bleser <pascal.bleser@skynet.be> wrote:
Because I (and Packman, and the nice people who host all that) am willing to take the risk and because it's still a little bit of a "legal
And we really thank you for that! SUSE would definitely not be as attractive if you guys were not helping out (*). I just hope that Novell understands that too - they should thank you too! (*) Once, long time ago, I completed one of their surveys about future of SUSE linux for home - they wanted to know what I need at home. I tried to make a point about two things: 1) do not drop the "server" software and 2) get the multimedia working (that's practically MP3 and DVD). Well, they haven't dropped the server software... -- HG. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
On 2006-07-23 at 10:25:13 +0300, HG wrote (shortened):
(*) Once, long time ago, I completed one of their surveys about future of SUSE linux for home - they wanted to know what I need at home. I tried to make a point about two things: 1) do not drop the "server" software and 2) get the multimedia working (that's practically MP3 and DVD). Well, they haven't dropped the server software...
And you also have MP3 support. Unfortunately not in every player application but still available in a legal way. That's not too bad. Wolfgang --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
HG wrote:
DVD). Well, they haven't dropped the server software...
also mp3 in the boxed one (they paid for :-() jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
On Sun, Jul 23, 2006 at 10:06:17AM +0200, jdd wrote:
HG wrote:
DVD). Well, they haven't dropped the server software...
also mp3 in the boxed one (they paid for :-()
Neither did we drop mp3 playing software, nor server software. You can even rip CDs to MP3 again with SUSE Linux 10.1. Ciao, Marcus --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Hi, Marcus Meissner schrieb:
Neither did we drop mp3 playing software, nor server software.
You can even rip CDs to MP3 again with SUSE Linux 10.1.
May I append a question here: From the commit messages it seems that MP3/Helix support was dropped from amarok, only banshee still has a Helix backend for MP3 support. Is that a temporary thing for Factory or is it permanent? The latter would be a pity because many users prefer amarok over banshee. Andreas Hanke --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
On Sun, Jul 23, 2006 at 11:13:35PM +0200, Andreas Hanke wrote:
Hi,
Marcus Meissner schrieb:
Neither did we drop mp3 playing software, nor server software.
You can even rip CDs to MP3 again with SUSE Linux 10.1.
May I append a question here: From the commit messages it seems that MP3/Helix support was dropped from amarok, only banshee still has a Helix backend for MP3 support.
Is that a temporary thing for Factory or is it permanent? The latter would be a pity because many users prefer amarok over banshee.
It is permanent due to license issues. I prefer amarok too. Ciao, Marcus --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Hi, Marcus Meissner schrieb:
It is permanent due to license issues.
So I guess "license issues" probably means trademark/branding issues and not copyright license issues? Banshee in Factory looks like a Real/Helix advertising space :( Real will never learn it, the technology is not bad, but with all these ads and banners it's no fun anymore, and it doesn't fit into amarok.
I prefer amarok too.
;) Everybody does. Andreas Hanke --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
On Sun, Jul 23, 2006 at 11:34:01PM +0200, Andreas Hanke wrote:
Hi,
Marcus Meissner schrieb:
It is permanent due to license issues.
So I guess "license issues" probably means trademark/branding issues and not copyright license issues?
Banshee in Factory looks like a Real/Helix advertising space :( Real will never learn it, the technology is not bad, but with all these ads and banners it's no fun anymore, and it doesn't fit into amarok.
Banshee is a Helix(tm) application. There are no banners or ads in banshee, last I looked. Ciao, Marcus --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Hi, Marcus Meissner schrieb:
Banshee is a Helix(tm) application.
Yes, it even has its own place on www.helixcommunity.org, but intestingly there are close to no resources there (CVS is empty, mailing lists have zero posts etc.).
There are no banners or ads in banshee, last I looked.
A branded splash screen, a branded "About" dialog, an EULA on startup... I'm just trying to guess the reason why the Helix(tm) engine was dropped from amarok and thought to have found it (amarok has a non-branded splash screen, a non-branded "About" dialog, no EULA on startup etc.), that's all. ;) Andreas Hanke --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
On Jul 23, 06 23:34:01 +0200, Andreas Hanke wrote:
Marcus Meissner schrieb:
It is permanent due to license issues.
So I guess "license issues" probably means trademark/branding issues and not copyright license issues?
No, as Markus told you it is a license issue. No "". The Helix license is not GPL compatible. Amarok is GPL. Matthias -- Matthias Hopf <mhopf@suse.de> __ __ __ Maxfeldstr. 5 / 90409 Nuernberg (_ | | (_ |__ mat@mshopf.de Phone +49-911-74053-715 __) |_| __) |__ labs www.mshopf.de --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Am Samstag, 22. Juli 2006 14:19 schrieb Pascal Bleser:
Because I (and Packman, and the nice people who host all that) am willing to take the risk and because it's still a little bit of a "legal grey zone". If it was very clear that it is illegal, I wouldn't do so (well, ok, the mad patent vs GPL issue makes it pretty much illegal, but so what).
Another thing is, we are no company, there is no money to get and it's no good publicity to inform against non profit organisations. We also have no Boxes to take back when there are legal problems, we simply have to delete a package from our Servers. It's a little bit like the Multimedia packages SUSE has provided for SUSE 9.3 with MP3 support and so on.
The situation is somewhat different for Novell. It's a company, and it's located in the US, where it only takes some idiot to put his cat into a microwave oven to sue the business that sells it. Novell just doesn't want to take the risk of getting sued.
And here in Europe we do not have Software Patents, that makes it much easier for us. A free implementation of a videocodec which is patented in US, is no problem in Germany, so it's legal here. SUSE want's to sell the boxes all over the world, so they have to take care of all laws arround the countries they sell the boxes. -- Machs gut | http://www.iivs.de/schwinde/buerger/tremmel/ | http://packman.links2linux.de/ Manfred | http://www.knightsoft-net.de --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
The situation is somewhat different for Novell. It's a company, and it's located in the US, where it only takes some idiot to put his cat into a microwave oven to sue the business that sells it. Novell just doesn't want to take the risk of getting sued.
And here in Europe we do not have Software Patents, that makes it much easier for us. A free implementation of a videocodec which is patented in US, is no problem in Germany, so it's legal here. SUSE want's to sell the boxes all over the world, so they have to take care of all laws arround the countries they sell the boxes.
Please just use and advocate OGG Vorbis/ OGG Theora. Ciao, Marcus --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Am Sonntag, 23. Juli 2006 22:26 schrieb Marcus Meissner:
Please just use and advocate OGG Vorbis/ OGG Theora.
I prefer free formats, when ever it's possible. But often I want to produce a Video-DVD which is playable on every DVD-Player. I can't get commercial movies in a completely free format, also digital TV is only sent as mpeg stream. It's a little bit different to bann the non free codecs. -- Machs gut | http://www.iivs.de/schwinde/buerger/tremmel/ | http://packman.links2linux.de/ Manfred | http://www.knightsoft-net.de --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
On Jul 23, 06 22:26:18 +0200, Marcus Meissner wrote:
And here in Europe we do not have Software Patents, that makes it much easier for us. A free implementation of a videocodec which is patented in US, is no problem in Germany, so it's legal here. SUSE want's to
You shouldn't believe that. We *theoretically* don't have software patents, but we *practically* have. Ask a lawyer for the gory details.
Please just use and advocate OGG Vorbis/ OGG Theora.
Don't believe that OGG Vorbis / Theora don't violate software patents. They probably do (both). AFAIK it's almost impossible to design a cosinus transfer and motion compensation based video codec without patent violation. Snow from the mplayer team might have a better chance, but is in an early state. Matthias -- Matthias Hopf <mhopf@suse.de> __ __ __ Maxfeldstr. 5 / 90409 Nuernberg (_ | | (_ |__ mat@mshopf.de Phone +49-911-74053-715 __) |_| __) |__ labs www.mshopf.de --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
I think mostly what's a problem is finding and managing repos. It would help a lot if more of the 3rd party repos could join under the packman umbrella perhaps.
Nice try, but when everyone tags me as EXPERIMENTAL because of the kernel pkg and tags me as O_O because I change the default settings of apps to my liking in pkgs, it's sorta hard to go anywhere. Jan Engelhardt -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
El Jueves, 20 de Julio de 2006 14:51, Jan Engelhardt escribió:
I think mostly what's a problem is finding and managing repos. It would help a lot if more of the 3rd party repos could join under the packman umbrella perhaps.
Nice try, but when everyone tags me as EXPERIMENTAL because of the kernel pkg and tags me as O_O because I change the default settings of apps to my liking in pkgs, it's sorta hard to go anywhere.
Jan Engelhardt
completely OT: do you have any idea where I might find a kernel 2.6.17 made at/from/with SUSE 10.1? In your repo I saw 2.6.18rc1. And what the heck is "O_O"?? -- Andreas --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
I think mostly what's a problem is finding and managing repos. It would help a lot if more of the 3rd party repos could join under the packman umbrella perhaps.
Nice try, but when everyone tags me as EXPERIMENTAL because of the kernel pkg and tags me as O_O because I change the default settings of apps to my liking in pkgs, it's sorta hard to go anywhere.
completely OT: do you have any idea where I might find a kernel 2.6.17 made at/from/with SUSE 10.1?
Currently offlined. I have a fresh 2.6.17.6 sitting at home, but no way I'm gonna upload the RPMs through ISDN. So in essence, either wait until it's up on ftp, or DIY: wget ftp://ftp-1.gwdg.de/pub/linux/misc/suser-jengelh/kernel/{linux-2.6.17-jen29.tar.bz2,config-2.6.17.6-jen29.tar.bz2} cd /tmp/linux-2.6.17.6/; /tmp/jen29/runpatchset -Yf /tmp/jen29/SERIES.lst and use the appropriate config from the config.tar.bz2
And what the heck is "O_O"??
A smiley with two big eyes. Variations are o_O and O_o Equivlaent to http://www.linux-club.de/images/smiles/icon_eek.gif Jan Engelhardt -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
El Viernes, 21 de Julio de 2006 03:59, Jan Engelhardt escribió:
I think mostly what's a problem is finding and managing repos. It would help a lot if more of the 3rd party repos could join under the packman umbrella perhaps.
Nice try, but when everyone tags me as EXPERIMENTAL because of the kernel pkg and tags me as O_O because I change the default settings of apps to my liking in pkgs, it's sorta hard to go anywhere.
completely OT: do you have any idea where I might find a kernel 2.6.17 made at/from/with SUSE 10.1?
Currently offlined. I have a fresh 2.6.17.6 sitting at home, but no way I'm gonna upload the RPMs through ISDN. So in essence, either wait until it's up on ftp, or DIY:
wget ftp://ftp-1.gwdg.de/pub/linux/misc/suser-jengelh/kernel/{linux-2.6.17 -jen29.tar.bz2,config-2.6.17.6-jen29.tar.bz2} cd /tmp/linux-2.6.17.6/; /tmp/jen29/runpatchset -Yf /tmp/jen29/SERIES.lst
just downloading and will give it a shot.
and use the appropriate config from the config.tar.bz2
And what the heck is "O_O"??
A smiley with two big eyes. Variations are o_O and O_o Equivlaent to http://www.linux-club.de/images/smiles/icon_eek.gi
oh well ;)
Jan Engelhardt
Thanks! -- Andreas --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Clayton wrote:
¿Why Ubuntu is more popular tha SUSE despite thier young life?
Maybe the response of that question can help the grow and improving of our community.
One HUGE factor with EVERYONE I know that uses Ubuntu or Kubuntu is...
That it will install on almost any laptop.
_package_management_.
Package management - this is bull - typical developer thinking which has nothing to do with users.
Ubuntu uses apt with the Synaptic front end. It's simple and easy to use. Several potential new users I've coached in Linux have tried out a few distributions including SUSE, and settled on Ubuntu (or Kubuntu), and when I ask why... they say that SUSE was great, easy to install and use right up until they tried to use the package management tools.
YaST was/is a brilliant installer, but once you want to manage 3rd party apps... SUSE falls to pieces for a new user. Ubuntu/Kubuntu comes with Synaptic preconfigured and ready to go. A new user simply has to start it up, click a few things as explained in easy to read instructions and they are up and running with literally thousands of applications avaiilable to be installed. They can even easily upgrade to the next major release with Synaptic.
Compare that to SUSE... you get YaST with is OK for managing apps on the DVD/CDs. If you want to add in 3rd party applications, the instructions for how to do this are spotty and almost impossible to follow (if you've never done it before). You can try out SMART, but again... horrible documentation, and loads of places where things go completely wrong (for an inexperienced user).
Thanks goes out to "Guru" for providing a repack of SMART/SMART-GUI with the 3rd perty repositories already preconfigured. I can provide my friends a simple step by step how-to to download the Smart stuff from the Guru site and get up and running with being able to install apps... and still, even with the repack, Smart - for a new user unfamiliar with Linux - is unweildy and confusing.
Otherwise - based on feedback I've received from new users - SUSE and Ubuntu stack up fairly well against each other.
So... I'll say it again... package management... it's very badly implemented in SUSE from the standpoint of a new user (who wants to add something not included on the DVD). Most of use here probably don't even realise it since we're used to rpm -ivh at the CLI, or can adapt to the rather odd eccentricities of Zen and/or Smart. We (as a group) have lost touch with the users who are unfamiliar with SUSE and/or Linux in general.
One thing that is working well... if a new user clicks on an rpm link on a webpage, the Zen package manager does a nice neat job of installing the RPM for them. But.. this doesn't solve the issue of the 3rd party software repositories... the place where Ubuntu really thrashes SUSE.
Of course this is all a combination of my opinion, and observations of new users struggling to move away from Windows... YMMV and all that.
C.
.
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The big problem using the SUSE Package Management is the resolve of dependencies over the Internet. Installation of one program is okay, but unresolved dependencies are not solved over the net. Thats the big benefit of Apt. Perhaps there will be a solution for the SUSE?
SOTL <s0tl155360@earthlink.net> 07/20/06 2:47 PM >>> Clayton wrote:
¿Why Ubuntu is more popular tha SUSE despite thier young life?
Maybe the response of that question can help the grow and improving of our community.
One HUGE factor with EVERYONE I know that uses Ubuntu or Kubuntu is...
That it will install on almost any laptop.
_package_management_.
Package management - this is bull - typical developer thinking which has nothing to do with users.
Ubuntu uses apt with the Synaptic front end. It's simple and easy to use. Several potential new users I've coached in Linux have tried out a few distributions including SUSE, and settled on Ubuntu (or Kubuntu), and when I ask why... they say that SUSE was great, easy to install and use right up until they tried to use the package management tools.
YaST was/is a brilliant installer, but once you want to manage 3rd party apps... SUSE falls to pieces for a new user. Ubuntu/Kubuntu comes with Synaptic preconfigured and ready to go. A new user simply has to start it up, click a few things as explained in easy to read instructions and they are up and running with literally thousands of applications avaiilable to be installed. They can even easily upgrade to the next major release with Synaptic.
Compare that to SUSE... you get YaST with is OK for managing apps on the DVD/CDs. If you want to add in 3rd party applications, the instructions for how to do this are spotty and almost impossible to follow (if you've never done it before). You can try out SMART, but again... horrible documentation, and loads of places where things go completely wrong (for an inexperienced user).
Thanks goes out to "Guru" for providing a repack of SMART/SMART- GUI with the 3rd perty repositories already preconfigured. I can provide my friends a simple step by step how- to to download the Smart stuff from the Guru site and get up and running with being able to install apps... and still, even with the repack, Smart - for a new user unfamiliar with Linux - is unweildy and confusing.
Otherwise - based on feedback I've received from new users - SUSE and Ubuntu stack up fairly well against each other.
So... I'll say it again... package management... it's very badly implemented in SUSE from the standpoint of a new user (who wants to add something not included on the DVD). Most of use here probably don't even realise it since we're used to rpm - ivh at the CLI, or can adapt to the rather odd eccentricities of Zen and/or Smart. We (as a group) have lost touch with the users who are unfamiliar with SUSE and/or Linux in general.
One thing that is working well... if a new user clicks on an rpm link on a webpage, the Zen package manager does a nice neat job of installing the RPM for them. But.. this doesn't solve the issue of the 3rd party software repositories... the place where Ubuntu really thrashes SUSE.
Of course this is all a combination of my opinion, and observations of new users struggling to move away from Windows... YMMV and all that.
C.
.
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On Thursday 20 July 2006 17:11, Dominik Jais wrote:
The big problem using the SUSE Package Management is the resolve of dependencies over the Internet. Installation of one program is okay, but unresolved dependencies are not solved over the net. Thats the big benefit of Apt.
No, both work the same way, both systems depends on which repos do you have enabled. There is no differrence. We miss a easy way to add external repositories, repo discovery, and integration with packages in the build service. Duncan --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
On Thursday 20 July 2006 17:15, Duncan Mac-Vicar Prett wrote:
On Thursday 20 July 2006 17:11, Dominik Jais wrote:
The big problem using the SUSE Package Management is the resolve of dependencies over the Internet. Installation of one program is okay, but unresolved dependencies are not solved over the net. Thats the big benefit of Apt.
No, both work the same way, both systems depends on which repos do you have enabled. There is no differrence. We miss a easy way to add external repositories, repo discovery, and integration with packages in the build service.
Perhaps someone could set up a "repository registration service". It shouldn't take long to hack up a quick GUI to retrieve a set of URLs together with one-liner descriptions, and let users select repos to add --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Hi, Anders Johansson schrieb:
Perhaps someone could set up a "repository registration service". It shouldn't take long to hack up a quick GUI to retrieve a set of URLs together with one-liner descriptions, and let users select repos to add
Nice idea. Something similar to http://easyurpmi.zarb.org/ would be nice. An "installation sources setup generator". Andreas Hanke --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
On Thu, 2006-07-20 at 18:09 +0200, Andreas Hanke wrote:
Hi,
Anders Johansson schrieb:
Perhaps someone could set up a "repository registration service". It shouldn't take long to hack up a quick GUI to retrieve a set of URLs together with one-liner descriptions, and let users select repos to add
Nice idea. Something similar to
would be nice. An "installation sources setup generator".
Andreas Hanke
Hmmm.. Didn't I just suggest this very idea at 7:51 am and received no response? This is the very thing that is needed with in YaST/PM -- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Hi, Kenneth Schneider schrieb:
Hmmm..
Didn't I just suggest this very idea at 7:51 am and received no response?
Not exactly. easyurpmi is a web-based tool which returns a configuration that can be imported into the package manager, and not a feature that is implemented directly in the package manager itself.
This is the very thing that is needed with in YaST/PM
The problem with doing this inside YaST is that YaST would need a little bit of knowledge about the repositories. And this is difficult because the really "interesting" repositories are problematic: Either they are unsupported (build service) or legally questionable (3rd party multimedia stuff). Pointers to either one of them inside the product are not acceptable. What I would like is an easier way to extend the installation sources setup than "You have to click here, and then you have to click there, and finally you have to split the repository URL into protocol, server name and directory parts" together with a web-based tool that can output a machine-readable installation sources setup. Besides that, having at least the complete and legally unproblematic standard HTTP/FTP inst_source available in a default installation would be nice. Maybe the required setup could be done together with setting up the update source during the installation. Andreas Hanke --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Andreas Hanke wrote:
What I would like is an easier way to extend the installation sources
the better way would be a special file in the installation repository itself, wich, read by yast give all the needed data. with a good mozilla setup (mime type), a clic on the file and the repository is included... like this the initiative come from the repository manager, not yast... jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
On Thu, 2006-07-20 at 20:16 +0200, Andreas Hanke wrote:
Hi,
Kenneth Schneider schrieb:
Hmmm..
Didn't I just suggest this very idea at 7:51 am and received no response?
Not exactly. easyurpmi is a web-based tool which returns a configuration that can be imported into the package manager, and not a feature that is implemented directly in the package manager itself.
This is the very thing that is needed with in YaST/PM
The problem with doing this inside YaST is that YaST would need a little bit of knowledge about the repositories. And this is difficult because the really "interesting" repositories are problematic: Either they are unsupported (build service) or legally questionable (3rd party multimedia stuff). Pointers to either one of them inside the product are not acceptable.
Which is why I stated that the repo would have to be registered with openSUSE in order to be included. Not to say they couldn't added manually like they are now. -- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Ken Schneider wrote:
Which is why I stated that the repo would have to be registered with openSUSE in order to be included. Not to say they couldn't added manually like they are now.
us laws (and many others) forgive even linking to copyright infringment software (lbdvcss, by example, necessary to read video dvd on linux), so suse can't have automatic linking to these. that is why I proposed that yast could read special file _on the server side_ I mean any suse repository can hold a "repo-register" file. downloading this file with a browser should make this repo included in yast. (remember the "make this repo in yast" of Konqueror in 10.0 and before) this way, Yast don't know initially of any repo and so SUSE can't be sued in law. jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
On Fri, 2006-07-21 at 08:29 +0200, jdd wrote:
Ken Schneider wrote:
Which is why I stated that the repo would have to be registered with openSUSE in order to be included. Not to say they couldn't added manually like they are now.
us laws (and many others) forgive even linking to copyright infringment software (lbdvcss, by example, necessary to read video dvd on linux), so suse can't have automatic linking to these.
Which is why it would have to be registered _and_ approved before being included in the list.
that is why I proposed that yast could read special file _on the server side_
I mean any suse repository can hold a "repo-register" file. downloading this file with a browser should make this repo included in yast. (remember the "make this repo in yast" of Konqueror in 10.0 and before)
Which would have to be manually found and added to YaST like it is now.
this way, Yast don't know initially of any repo and so SUSE can't be sued in law.
I was just trying to come up with a legal easier way to have repos in YaST, registered, _approved_ and legal repos to chose from. -- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Hi,
What I would like is an easier way to extend the installation sources setup than "You have to click here, and then you have to click there, and finally you have to split the repository URL into protocol, server name and directory parts"
Well, at least the "split url" thingy isn't required any more in 10.1, the "installation source" module has "Add->Specify URL". So you can browse repos.opensuse.org, then cut&paste the address ...
together with a web-based tool that can output a machine-readable installation sources setup.
I think yast2 being able to deal with *.repo files would be nice. So you can drop those files into -- say -- /etc/yum.repos.d and have yast2 see them and offer to add/enable them with a mouseclick or two. cheers, Gerd -- Gerd Hoffmann <kraxel@suse.de> http://www.suse.de/~kraxel/julika-dora.jpeg --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Nice idea. Something similar to
would be nice. An "installation sources setup generator".
Yes! It will be great, of course. -- Jordi Espasa Clofent Linux user id 332494 #http://counter.li.org/ PGP id 0xC5ABA76A #http://pgp.mit.edu/ FSF Associate Member id 4281 #http://www.fsf.org/
No, both work the same way, both systems depends on which repos do you have enabled. There is no differrence. We miss a easy way to add external repositories, repo discovery, and integration with packages in the build service.
We miss performance in the package management tasks We miss t-shirts and stickers yes We miss the fact that Novell doesnt seem to care a lot about what their users would like to have. Instead they prefer to simply ignore and take decisions the way they like. cheers Marcio --- druid
On Thu, Jul 20, 2006 at 03:17:59PM -0300, Druid wrote:
No, both work the same way, both systems depends on which repos do you have enabled. There is no differrence. We miss a easy way to add external repositories, repo discovery, and integration with packages in the build service.
We miss performance in the package management tasks
I hope and am confident that we get that back. :)
We miss t-shirts and stickers yes
Well.
We miss the fact that Novell doesnt seem to care a lot about what their users would like to have. Instead they prefer to simply ignore and take decisions the way they like.
We do care. Well, at least I do and I know several people in the openSUSE and SUSE Linux teams that do. Understand that we have our constraints, but we are watching the Wishlists and try to incorporate feedback. Ciao, Marcus (packager of etherape and aircrack-ng, both from the network wishlist) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Hi, Dominik Jais schrieb:
The big problem using the SUSE Package Management is the resolve of dependencies over the Internet. Installation of one program is okay, but unresolved dependencies are not solved over the net. Thats the big benefit of Apt.
I don't understand this statement. YaST/zypp is/are definitely able to resolve dependencies, no matter if the sources are local or remote. If there are unresolved dependencies, your installation sources setup is not complete. That is, there are sources which depend on each other, and only parts of them are known to your YaST/zypp setup. I think it's more a documentation problem: The information about which sources depend on each other is not presented prominently enough. It's not true that YaST/zypp don't resolve dependencies. Normally I would now ask you for the output of "installation_sources -s" and tell you which additional sources you need. But unfortunately, the "installation_sources" command is gone in 10.1 :( Andreas Hanke --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Dominik Jais schrieb:
The big problem using the SUSE Package Management is the resolve of dependencies over the Internet. Installation of one program is okay, but unresolved dependencies are not solved over the net. Thats the big benefit of Apt.
I don't understand this statement. YaST/zypp is/are definitely able to resolve dependencies, no matter if the sources are local or remote.
If there are unresolved dependencies, your installation sources setup is not complete. That is, there are sources which depend on each other, and only parts of them are known to your YaST/zypp setup.
I think it's more a documentation problem: The information about which sources depend on each other is not presented prominently enough. It's not true that YaST/zypp don't resolve dependencies.
Normally I would now ask you for the output of "installation_sources -s" and tell you which additional sources you need. But unfortunately, the "installation_sources" command is gone in 10.1 :(
I think this is a preceived problem rather than a real one. In the past you would get a screen with most if not all the problems and could make choices really quickly that seemed to go through the list. Now is is more of a one at a time. Even with the test version from aj. I have to go through manu screens to get every thing cleared. Before I would have only one maybe two screens. I often have to answer the same question multiple times. Even if I choose generally instead of this one time. - -- Boyd Gerber <gerberb@zenez.com> ZENEZ 1042 East Fort Union #135, Midvale Utah 84047 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://quantumlab.net/pine_privacy_guard/ iD8DBQFEv63yVtBjDid73eYRAm2XAJ9WqBvqoB/MXDxwqGjvNN/wTFWnjACeKfB/ cM6hGXMrICpQ0qK3GggMYtA= =68IS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
tor, 20,.07.2006 kl. 18.07 +0200, skrev Andreas Hanke: snip
Normally I would now ask you for the output of "installation_sources -s" and tell you which additional sources you need. But unfortunately, the "installation_sources" command is gone in 10.1 :(
embla:/home/iznogood # rug sl # | Status | Type | Navn | URI ---+--------+------+-----------+----------------------------------------- 1 | Active | ZYPP | Base | http://ftp.belnet.be/mirrors/ftp.ope... 2 | Active | ZYPP | Non-oss | http://ftp.belnet.be/mirrors/ftp.ope... 3 | Active | ZYPP | Update | http://ftp.belnet.be/mirrors/ftp.sus... 4 | Active | ZYPP | Libzypp | http://ftp-1.gwdg.de/pub/linux/suse/... 5 | Active | ZYPP | Kernel | http://ftp-1.gwdg.de/pub/linux/suse/... 6 | Active | ZYPP | Packman | http://packman.mirrors.skynet.be/pub... 7 | Active | ZYPP | Guru | http://ftp.skynet.be/pub/suser-guru/... 8 | Active | ZYPP | nVIDIA | ftp://download.nvidia.com/novell 9 | Active | ZYPP | Compiz | http://repos.opensuse.org/Compiz-Qui... embla:/home/iznogood # ---------- But it should output the ENTIRE url and not just parts of it. Bjørn --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
But it should output the ENTIRE url and not just parts of it.
Yes, that would be better. But you can make it do that if you add the no-abbrev flag: rug --no-abbrev sl Claes --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
tor, 20,.07.2006 kl. 20.17 +0200, skrev Claes at work: snip
rug --no-abbrev sl
Claes
Ahh, so thats what thatone does :) Well then I have no complaints then, and I guess the parent poster has a way of getting the info he/she needs. Bjørn --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
* Andreas Hanke <andreas.hanke@gmx-topmail.de> [Jul 20. 2006 18:07]:
Normally I would now ask you for the output of "installation_sources -s" and tell you which additional sources you need. But unfortunately, the "installation_sources" command is gone in 10.1 :(
We have an internal version which will be made available via the openSUSE build service. Klaus --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Hello, Am Donnerstag, 20. Juli 2006 21:13 schrieb Klaus Kaempf:
* Andreas Hanke <andreas.hanke@gmx-topmail.de> [Jul 20. 2006 18:07]:
But unfortunately, the "installation_sources" command is gone in 10.1 :(
We have an internal version which will be made available via the openSUSE build service.
s/will be/is ;-) http://software.opensuse.org/download/home:/Mvidner/SUSE_Linux_10.1/repodata... Regards, Christian Boltz --
He Mann, isse krasse, erste Wort: "Kyptographie", isse schon falsch. Was machst du? Uuuhhh. Ist in der Listenkasse noch genug Geld für ein Wörterbuch? [> Ratti und Thorsten Haude in sl-etikette]
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_package_management_.
Package management - this is bull - typical developer thinking which has nothing to do with users.
Well... I am not a developer.. never have been never will be. It's not my forte. Haven't got a clue what you mean that package management has nothign to do with users... show me an end user and I'll show you someone who's never quite happy with the software you give him/her and wants to go find other stuff that might suit thier needs. Call it what you will, package management... finding and installing applications... I dont' care. The end user.. me, the people I help install and set up SUSE... want a simple way to find and install applications. In previosu releases, I set up Synaptic and the newbie users were happy. They could start one application, and easily navaigate a simple tree of applications.. around 7500 apps were there for them to pick from. I can get a similar setup now in 10.1, but it's much less "fire and forget" for me. I have to explain the backwards way that SMART works. Or I have to manually enter each repository into YAST. That sucks big time. i dont' have time to do that. I set up a friend on Ubuntu, and he was very happy with how easy Syanptic was to use, and there was about 16000 apps for him to wade through. Kept him amused for days. :-) I repeat though... installing an RPM from a webpage link is very easy with the new Zen thingy. My new users like the ease with which they can click and install... it's very painless. As was said by others in this thread.... something as simple as: - automatic discovery of other unoffical but popular/approved repositories - some sanity brought to the interface. The Zen gui just give a HUGE list of available apps. That's useless. You absolutely need a way of reducing that view down to something managable - just like YAST does with the grouping it does. You also need to show the installed version and the available version in some kind of logical order (something SMART GUI fails miserably at too). Functionally, Zen (or whatever it's called) is working better now... but the UI needs a LOT of work. Especially since it's GTK based... a broken start to begin with :-( C. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
There are lot of changes ongoing. - zypp was created whch gves us lot of posibilities, not all yet explored. - we have the opensuse build service, which is a place to get input from the community and output a software wharehouse. At some pont, things will coverge and we will offer easy way to get software from the community packages, just gve it time to mature. Duncan --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Kunael wrote:
- YaST. Without any kind of doubts, YaST has been, is and will the main strengh of SUSE.
Quality and openSUSE.org are right now the two main strengths of SUSE. It is true that SUSE reputation for quality got a little dented with the hurried change of package manager in 10.1, but I suspect Novell might well have learned a lesson there.
So... ¿Is it recieved the needed atention and developing improvement? Personally, I don't see a great improvements since 8.2/9.0 versions.
I don't personally use YaST much other than for installing the odd package, and the only thing I might be missing is support for JFS at installation time. Why don't you list what you'd like to see in YaST in the future? What functionality you're missing right now etc. I'm sure that would be great, much-needed input for the SUSE guys.
¿Why Ubuntu is more popular tha SUSE despite thier young life?
Interesting question. Perhaps another question to start with - _is_ Ubuntu more popular than SUSE? What is this based on? In which community/country etc? Personally, I don't experiment much with distros as I have a production system to look after, so I don't know anything about Ubuntu. /Per Jessen, Zürich --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Per Jessen wrote:
Personally, I don't experiment much with distros as I have a production system to look after, so I don't know anything about Ubuntu.
But now I got curious and downloaded Ubuntu 6.06, burned myself a CD and began the install - I'm testing SUSE 10.2 Alpha2 on a couple of systems anyway, so one test more wouldn't exactly upset my schedule :-) Well, it took about 5secs before my Ubuntu install hit a kernel oops. I'm surprised, but not impressed ... (oh, and I did check the CD for defects). /Per Jessen, Zürich --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
On Thursday 20 July 2006 07:19, Per Jessen wrote:
Per Jessen wrote:
Personally, I don't experiment much with distros as I have a production system to look after, so I don't know anything about Ubuntu.
But now I got curious and downloaded Ubuntu 6.06, burned myself a CD and began the install - I'm testing SUSE 10.2 Alpha2 on a couple of systems anyway, so one test more wouldn't exactly upset my schedule :-)
Well, it took about 5secs before my Ubuntu install hit a kernel oops. I'm surprised, but not impressed ... (oh, and I did check the CD for defects).
/Per Jessen, Zürich ---------------------------------------------------------------------
I too took the bait and downloaded Ubuntu to see what all the noise was about PJ. Testing on two different machines further confirmed the fact, this thing is overrated. This has to be one of the slowest, worst thought out distros available on standard hardware. I have read articles, as well, flaunting it as a great desktop Linux, over & above SuSE, but I've yet to determine why. Thing I always find after finally getting it to boot is it's still Debian. That's not meant to be a cut on Debian, it's a fine distro, but it's not Fedora, Mandriva or SuSE! What you find with Ubuntu, you'll find with any Debian based Linux distro. As far as APT goes, I'm sure for those that have used it continuously on a Debian based distro, think it's the best thing since sliced bread, but I seem to remember the difficulty many had trying to use it with SuSE. The wailing that went on the regular SuSE mail list could be heard around the world from failed upgrades and broken systems. Sure you could get it working, but it was still uncertain what your next update might end up becoming. I feel like I partially understand what SuSE is trying to do with the present offerings, including a crappy mono programmed yast2 that continues to give problems. That is to bring everything together so that YUM, Smart & Yast2 all work seamlessly in doing updates, etc. for the user or administrator. I also do agree with the one poster that mentioned documentation is very sparse to the point of being non-existent! I recently setup KYum to use for updating. I did so because it's QT based and YUM is excellent for rpm type distros, but trying to find enough documentation to get everything working was a nightmare. Just through sheer insistence on my part to get away from zmd, rug, red carpet or whatever that mess is, was I able to figure it out. I like it! Thing is, this is not the first time SuSE programs have arrived with little or no documentation. Without it makes learning how things work near impossible and difficult for helpful users to offer suggestions on how to help fix it. We all have to accept the fact, Novell seems to want to take SuSE in a different direction. What that direction is, I'm not sure yet. SLES & SLED 10.0 seem to be praised as some of the best Linux yet. That may be nice for the business end, but forgetting what made SuSE what it is, may very well be their weak spot. As with any Linux, SuSE is/was a community of people wanting to make it the best with some clear direction. I'm not sure that direction is as clear as it once might have been. regards, Lee --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Hi, On Thu, 20 Jul 2006, BandiPat wrote:
As far as APT goes, I'm sure for those that have used it continuously on a Debian based distro, think it's the best thing since sliced bread, but I seem to remember the difficulty many had trying to use it with SuSE. The wailing that went on the regular SuSE mail list could be heard around the world from failed upgrades and broken systems. Sure you could get it working, but it was still uncertain what your next update might end up becoming.
I really have NOT seen it this way. Have a look into http://www.linux-club.de/viewforum.php?f=62&sid=4bfb8a83b6577df8b5edc66019b01712 to see the big help there and the big efforts outside there, regarding apt4rpm for SUSE. It is in german, sorry. Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Quality and openSUSE.org are right now the two main strengths of SUSE. It is true that SUSE reputation for quality got a little dented with the hurried change of package manager in 10.1, but I suspect Novell might well have learned a lesson there.
I think that a big TI company as Novell should know it before. Before than "10.1" lesson, of course.
I don't personally use YaST much other than for installing the odd package, and the only thing I might be missing is support for JFS at installation time. Why don't you list what you'd like to see in YaST in the future? What functionality you're missing right now etc. I'm sure that would be great, much-needed input for the SUSE guys.
Yes, you've got a reason. Specially the front-end/module for iptables/SuSEfirewall is really poor (IMHO).
Interesting question. Perhaps another question to start with - _is_ Ubuntu more popular than SUSE? What is this based on? In which community/country etc? Personally, I don't experiment much with distros as I have a production system to look after, so I don't know anything about Ubuntu.
Well, the prestigious site www.distrowatch.com says it. Moreover in short time Ubuntu has taken market quota from another distros as Mandriva, Fedora, SUSE. I work with computers and in many environments (specially in education environment) Ubuntu is the first choice in front of mentioned distros; besides the Ubuntu communty is very very large!!!
Kunael wrote:
I don't personally use YaST much other than for installing the odd package, and the only thing I might be missing is support for JFS at installation time. Why don't you list what you'd like to see in YaST in the future? What functionality you're missing right now etc. I'm sure that would be great, much-needed input for the SUSE guys.
Yes, you've got a reason. Specially the front-end/module for iptables/SuSEfirewall is really poor (IMHO).
I think there is page for suggestions like this - can't remember where though. Just as a comment - I've never used YaST for maintaining my firewall scripts, but I have a suspicion that iptables might just be one of those areas that are very difficult to do a one-size-fits-all GUI for - simply because of the many different possibilities. /Per Jessen, Zürich Still disappointed that my first Ubuntu attempt crashed and burned. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Per Jessen wrote:
Just as a comment - I've never used YaST for maintaining my firewall scripts, but I have a suspicion that iptables might just be one of those areas that are very difficult to do a one-size-fits-all GUI for - simply because of the many different possibilities.
may be simply translate the notes of SuSEFirewall2? and better define some words... jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Per Jessen wrote:
[...] Quality and openSUSE.org are right now the two main strengths of SUSE. It is true that SUSE reputation for quality got a little dented with the hurried change of package manager in 10.1, but I suspect Novell might well have learned a lesson there.
I wouldn't sign this statement ;-) You have to look at the driving force in the background that led to the problems in SUSE 10.1. The Novell management wanted to integrate the zen software into SLES 10. As SUSE 10.1 is the basis for SLES 10, zen had to be integrated into SUSE 10.1 as well. The management's priority was and is the business product SLES, I think they really knew when making the decision about the change in package management software for 10.1 that this would cause problems for the end user. However, they decided to hazard the consequences. From my point of view, SUSE 10.1 users were just "abused" as cheap public beta testers for SLES. The decisions were clearly not made in favour of a stable SUSE 10.1 release, but in favour of an SLES product. And, I believe, the Novell management would do it again exactly like this. So I really have doubts whether a lesson has been learned... At a lower level, say the SUSE Linux product manager(s), or the staff closely involved in the openSUSE project, or the developers, yes, I think they somehow really faced the negative feedback (although I am sure that most of the problems have not been their fault and that they worked hard to make the best out of SUSE 10.1) by the end user and have learned a lesson, but at the high management level...?!? This is just my opinion about the events (from a person outside the Novell empire) and, in principle, I hope that I am wrong ;-) Cheers, Th. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Thomas Hertweck wrote:
Per Jessen wrote:
[...] Quality and openSUSE.org are right now the two main strengths of SUSE. It is true that SUSE reputation for quality got a little dented with the hurried change of package manager in 10.1, but I suspect Novell might well have learned a lesson there.
I wouldn't sign this statement ;-)
Well, we can always hope ...
From my point of view, SUSE 10.1 users were just "abused" as cheap public beta testers for SLES.
But 10.1 underwent a fully public alpha and beta phase - I myself tested all the beta versions, I believe. It's a pity that 10.1 was not delayed to wait for the libzypp fix.
The decisions were clearly not made in favour of a stable SUSE 10.1 release, but in favour of an SLES product. And, I believe, the Novell management would do it again exactly like this.
And no-one can fault them for thinking that way.
So I really have doubts whether a lesson has been learned... At a lower level, say the SUSE Linux product manager(s), or the staff closely involved in the openSUSE project, or the developers, yes, I think they somehow really faced the negative feedback (although I am sure that most of the problems have not been their fault and that they worked hard to make the best out of SUSE 10.1) by the end user and have learned a lesson, but at the high management level...?!?
Well, although I pretty much agree with what you're saying, I think the reasoning might be slightly different: I think 10.1 had to ship as planned because that's typically how American software houses work. European software houses typically delay a shipment when they become aware of a major bug. After all, would it not have been entirely in the SUSE spirit if we'd had a press-release saying "10.1 delayed due to less than desired quality"? But it would probably not have gone down so well with American stockholders. I don't see how the shipping of 10.1 is in any way related to what goes into SLES10 - the beta testing had been done already. To the original statement - unfortunately you're probably right and Novell will not have learnt that particular lesson. /Per Jessen, Zürich --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Per Jessen wrote:
But 10.1 underwent a fully public alpha and beta phase - I myself tested all the beta versions, I believe. It's a pity that 10.1 was not delayed to wait for the libzypp fix.
should not have given any good; Remember that the problem come from _not_ having enough update repositories (out from Novell). Novell testbeds runned perfectly, so alpha was ok, but as soon as released problem come. so the problem was due to an organisation error with a pretty difficult thing to solve (having external update repos before the final cut) of course the problem should have been better accepted is there where not a lot of minor but annoying small bugs :-(
The decisions were clearly not made in favour of a stable SUSE 10.1 release, but in favour of an SLES product. And, I believe, the Novell management would do it again exactly like this.
and I hope so. if not do you think Novell could spend as luch money? they need income back. understand that we (openSUSE users) use a free totally functional product. Novell mostly sell support. jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
jdd wrote:
Per Jessen wrote:
But 10.1 underwent a fully public alpha and beta phase - I myself tested all the beta versions, I believe. It's a pity that 10.1 was not delayed to wait for the libzypp fix.
should not have given any good; Remember that the problem come from _not_ having enough update repositories (out from Novell).
Uh, I wasn't aware of that. My main problem was YaST performance.
understand that we (openSUSE users) use a free totally functional product. Novell mostly sell support.
Services and support - the mainstay of business in the opensource world. I make a living that way myself. /Per Jessen, Zürich --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Hi, Thomas Hertweck schrieb:
From my point of view, SUSE 10.1 users were just "abused" as cheap public beta testers for SLES. The decisions were clearly not made in favour of a stable SUSE 10.1 release, but in favour of an SLES product. And, I believe, the Novell management would do it again exactly like this. So I really have doubts whether a lesson has been learned...
I don't share this opinion. Managers are not dumb. They know that (open)SUSE is perceived as sort of a "test case" for enterprise products, and they know that poor (open)SUSE releases put the reputation of enterprise products into question. And I actually don't even share the conclusion that Novell doesn't care about (open)SUSE stability. Do you remember the endless discussions about SUSE 10.1 being shipped with "outdated" KDE and GNOME version numbers? These "outdated" releases were chosen because of stability concerns. I tend to find the discussions about SUSE 10.1 quality rather annoying. New installations will get the first and now even the second update stack during the initial installation, new user's wont even notice the most obvious problems, and the sad experiences early adopters hat cannot be undone any more. Maybe we (the users) should try to be a little bit more forgiving. And we shouldn't forget that (open)SUSE is about a lot more than just package management. E.g., is there any other free Linux offering out there with a better working Xen setup than (open)SUSE? I'm not aware of any. OpenOffice.org with VBA support? Nowhere as good as in (open)SUSE. etc... Andreas Hanke --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Andreas Hanke wrote:
[...] I don't share this opinion.
Fair enough ;-)
Managers are not dumb. They know that (open)SUSE is perceived as sort of a "test case" for enterprise products, and they know that poor (open)SUSE releases put the reputation of enterprise products into question.
I don't share this opinion. People are so confused about the names, SUSE Linux, openSUSE, SUSE Enterprise, etc., that many don't even know that the SUSE Linux 10.1 from the openSUSE project is the basis for the Linux Enterprise product from Novell. Insiders, of course, will know. And hopefully those who have to make the decisions.
And I actually don't even share the conclusion that Novell doesn't care about (open)SUSE stability. Do you remember the endless discussions about SUSE 10.1 being shipped with "outdated" KDE and GNOME version numbers? These "outdated" releases were chosen because of stability concerns.
Sure. The statement should not be generalized. It concerned the change in software package management in 10.1. Although I would immediately know of other things that didn't really contribute to the stability of SUSE Linux in the past.
I tend to find the discussions about SUSE 10.1 quality rather annoying. New installations will get the first and now even the second update stack during the initial installation, new user's wont even notice the most obvious problems, and the sad experiences early adopters hat cannot be undone any more.
Do you really think people won't recognise that an update of repository data takes about 2 seconds in Ubuntu but 3 min in SUSE Linux, even with the latest updates installed? Well, I think it matters and people will recognize it if they compare. And I think that discussing problems with 10.1 is not annoying but helps to ensure that we won't see similar things in the future. All of this is not meant to upset developers or SUSE guys, and it's never a personal thing. Covering up problems doesn't really help.
Maybe we (the users) should try to be a little bit more forgiving. And we shouldn't forget that (open)SUSE is about a lot more than just package management. E.g., is there any other free Linux offering out there with a better working Xen setup than (open)SUSE? I'm not aware of any. OpenOffice.org with VBA support? Nowhere as good as in (open)SUSE. etc...
I partly agree with you. But you should recognise that Xen is not an essential and central part of SUSE Linux, but the package management is. I installed 10.1 on one of my PCs and I was not able to come up with a system that really satisfied all my needs. I don't need stuff like Xgl, etc., I need my system for work. And I would consider myself as an experienced end user. I know of other people that made similar experiences with the installation process. If people buy a box product from Novell/SUSE, they expect it to function out of the box as intended. If not, they consider the product as broken. They don't want to wait four weeks for an update to fix problems that should never have happened in the first place. They don't want to spend hours and hours to work around problems. My emails might sometimes sound a bit pessimistic or negative. I still believe in SUSE Linux, although 10.1 was a step backward and I was disappointed about the overall functionality and stability. Hopefully, 10.2 will be two steps forward ;-) Again, this is my personal point of view and others might have had completely different experiences. Such is life! Cheers, Th. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
On 7/20/06, Kunael <kunael4@yahoo.es> wrote:
I'm completely agree with you. An add one more: I've got the feeling that one mistake has been try to include more than enough things. So, we've several examples (IMHO), such as:
- Packet management. YaST (packet manager module), YUM, Smart, APT4RPM, Kick.. ¿are really needed all of these? Sometimes I feel it as a joke. I think the way is concentrate the efforts in _ONE_ package management solution.
- YaST. Without any kind of doubts, YaST has been, is and will the main strengh of SUSE. So... ¿Is it recieved the needed atention and developing improvement? Personally, I don't see a great improvements since 8.2/9.0 versions.
I repeat: IMHO. Obviously I appreciate sincerely the efforts of developers (SUSE team and contributors from community) but there're things to improve.
So, I throw a hard question to resolve:
¿Why Ubuntu is more popular tha SUSE despite thier young life?
Maybe the response of that question can help the grow and improving of our community.
Ubuntu, see to be popular because it debain base and easy to use apt-get anything. A it the coolest thing. I know that most of the people my office like Ubuntu because unlike Debian which seem to be three years behind, Ubuntu all cutting edge. I have love suse since jumping from Turbolinux, Slackware, and RedHat. I been on since 5.3 I think Yast is the best manage system out there, better than another out there. -- Command, n.: Statement presented by a human and accepted by a computer in such a manner as to make the human feel as if he is in control. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Kunael wrote:
I'm completely agree with you. An add one more: I've got the feeling that one mistake has been try to include more than enough things. So, we've several examples (IMHO), such as:
- Packet management. YaST (packet manager module), YUM, Smart, APT4RPM, Kick.. ¿are really needed all of these? Sometimes I feel it as a joke. I think the way is concentrate the efforts in _ONE_ package management solution.
- YaST. Without any kind of doubts, YaST has been, is and will the main strengh of SUSE. So... ¿Is it recieved the needed atention and developing improvement? Personally, I don't see a great improvements since 8.2/9.0 versions.
I repeat: IMHO. Obviously I appreciate sincerely the efforts of developers (SUSE team and contributors from community) but there're things to improve.
So, I throw a hard question to resolve:
¿Why Ubuntu is more popular tha SUSE despite thier young life?
Simple Ubuntu will install on all sort of hardware that OpenSuSE and SuSE will not. Some will disagree but then there concept of what is meant by install is very different than most people. I have an IBM Thinkpad A30P. Recall here that IBM is a very big supporter of Linux. Fortunately I purchased a second HD for test purposes as commercial SuSE 10.1 on first attempt installation did not install a win modem, the Fn key does not work, the F1 to F12 keys do not work, UV does not work, and since I did the installation with connecting the computer to DSL there is no way to add a DSL connection or wireless connection. In short SuSE 10.1 is only half finished suitable only for desktops which raises a very profound managemental question (that is managemental question to punchasers of SuSE products) : Why would I (as a manager) purchase technical support from a company that is so incompetent that their wham bang operating system will not install on my laptop. Windows does and it works just fine thus there must be something drastically wrong with that trash so our firm will just stick to Windows. Now there are some that will be appalled at that attitude but that is precisely the attitude that corporate executives have. The answer to your question is simple SuSE 10.1 is half finished. This was noted by myself at the OpenSuSE 10.1 Beta 8 level and a full and detail bug report was issued by myself after at Beta 9. Email back from SuSE stated that the issue with the modem was that the modem is not open source and would be included in the commercial version. Purchase of the commercial version by myself and installation on a test HD gave the above noted results and this after Mandrake 10.1 installed and worked and still does on the normal HD used in the computer. Now just think what would be my attitude toward having SuSE migrate a corporate IT department to Linux away from Windows if I was some high level corporate executive. Personally I can assure you that I would be much more impressed with a system that would install even if it crashed daily than one that refuses to install. So what is the problem? Simple there are developers who have the ability to developer which means daily change and there are users who have interest which demand complete stability and no change in the system and a fully functional operating system with a minimum of hassle. The developers are in aw with how great the latest Linux features are while the users are horrified at their inability to make Linux work and the constant change. On a practical matter change should be limited to the Internet and downloads. Commercial level CD should be rock solid stable and install on anything. Which is not the situation so sophisticated users simply go elsewhere Ubuntu.
Maybe the response of that question can help the grow and improving of our community.
--------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
On Thursday 20 July 2006 15:45, SOTL wrote:
So what is the problem? Simple there are developers who have the ability to developer which means daily change and there are users who have interest which demand complete stability and no change in the system and a fully functional operating system with a minimum of hassle. The developers are in aw with how great the latest Linux features are while the users are horrified at their inability to make Linux work and the constant change. On a practical matter change should be limited to the Internet and downloads. Commercial level CD should be rock solid stable and install on anything. Which is not the situation so sophisticated users simply go elsewhere Ubuntu.
Does Ubuntu ship with closed source kernel modules? --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Hi, Anders Johansson schrieb:
Does Ubuntu ship with closed source kernel modules?
Yes it does. And it's still often considered to be "more free" or "more open", which I tend to find rather unfair sometimes. Andreas Hanke --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Andreas Hanke wrote:
[...] And it's still often considered to be "more free" or "more open", which I tend to find rather unfair sometimes.
Is this really what the end user is worried about? I believe that the typical end user just wants to install a Linux distribution with full support for all the hardware. I don't think that many users care whether their modem works because of an open source driver or because of a closed source driver. It should just work. And I don't believe that many users want to install a pure open source system without Flash Player, Acrobat Reader, Java, etc. From my point of view, many people don't care about open source as long as they can get something for free (free = no money) and it works for them. That's the experience I've made over the last couple of years. I didn't come across any SUSE 10.1 installation without at least some packages of CD 6... We should not discuss the advantages of open source, I am sure we here on this mailing list are all aware of it. But we shouldn't forget the other side of the story. Cheers, Th. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Hi, Thomas Hertweck schrieb:
[...] And it's still often considered to be "more free" or "more open", which I tend to find rather unfair sometimes.
Is this really what the end user is worried about?
No, probably not, and nobody stated that. I'm just trying to explain *why* the user's winmodem didn't work in a default installation and *why* it will probably not work better in future default installations of (open)SUSE, and actually I doubt that other distributors can continue with proprietary kernel modules in the same way they are currently distributing them. Maybe one or two years, but not more. The "pressure" from actual Linux contributors and copyright holders (not users) is too high. The situation with the packages from CD6 is different because none of them is considered to be in violation of any free software license, but the proprietary kernel modules are, and very few users seem to be aware of that. This was not meant to be a philosophical statement about the pros and cons of distributing proprietary applications - especially since (open)SUSE *does* distribute proprietary applications - but about the legal situation of proprietary kernel modules in particular. Let's hope that, at least for winmodems, ALSA will solve the problem even better in the future than it does currently, Andreas Hanke --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Andreas Hanke wrote:
[...] I'm just trying to explain *why* the user's winmodem didn't work in a default installation and *why* it will probably not work better in future default installations of (open)SUSE, and actually I doubt that other distributors can continue with proprietary kernel modules in the same way they are currently distributing them. Maybe one or two years, but not more. The "pressure" from actual Linux contributors and copyright holders (not users) is too high.
In principle I agree with you. But, you know, it somehow looks like a fight between the open source community and (maybe) the Linux distributors on the one hand and the hardware/software driver manufacturers on the other hand. And the loser is the end user, as usual. I don't think it was a good idea to drop the shipment of proprietary modules at a moment's notice (from SUSE XX.X to XX.Y) *without* an adequate replacement that makes the transition as smooth as possible for the end user. First getting a solution in place and *then* making the move would have been much better from my point of view. Sometimes I really have problems explaining something like this to a user that is new to Linux and only wants an easy installation of his chosen Linux distribution (whatever it is)... Cheers, Th. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Thomas Hertweck wrote:
*without* an adequate replacement that makes the transition as smooth as possible for the end user. First getting a solution in place and *then*
radars on the road are added that make speed moving more difficult, but I can't wait to take my car to have an automatic speed adjustment on it (it will probably never have) there are _real problems_. proprietary software make use at risk for security and data. don't worry? use Unbutu and voilà. I do worry and use SUSE... and if you don't worry, why use Linux in the first place, why not Windows (there are many more windows users than Unbutu users, no?) such discussion are really useless (already very often made...) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
jdd wrote:
radars on the road are added that make speed moving more difficult, but I can't wait to take my car to have an automatic speed adjustment on it (it will probably never have)
You start to annoy me because you drag this discussion into something that was never intended.
[...] don't worry? use Unbutu and voilà. I do worry and use SUSE...
I DO care about the things, and that is exactly the reason why I say we need a solution for the problems discussed in the last emails. But it must be transparent for the end user and the "solution" shouldn't make life much more complicated for the user. Dropping proprietary modules without an adequate replacement makes life much more complicated - check the mailing list archives if you don't believe it. Not being able to install NVIDIA drivers via YAST makes life more complicated for many users. Do you disagree with that? There are other examples. That's why there should be an adequate replacement for a functionality before old things are dropped.
and if you don't worry, why use Linux in the first place, why not Windows (there are many more windows users than Unbutu users, no?)
If you have arguments, I am happy to discuss the topic with you. If you only want to write flames, then please stop it. You don't have to reply to my emails. Cheers, Th. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Thomas Hertweck wrote:
You start to annoy me because you drag this discussion into something that was never intended.
you have problems related to general decision. modules are lacking because they was causing problems, not for I don't know what kind if hazardous decision. this is explained on the wiki.
I DO care about the things
nice. it's why these module where removed. and we couldn't afford to way. if my house is at risk, I can't wait for a friendly solution.
must be transparent for the end user and the "solution" shouldn't make life much more complicated for the user. Dropping proprietary modules without an adequate replacement makes life much more complicated
i this make it more complicated. This is the price to pay for safety. why bother to have a firewall? this is complicated! remove it... same thing - check
the mailing list archives if you don't believe it. Not being able to install NVIDIA drivers via YAST makes life more complicated for many users. Do you disagree with that?
ask Nvidia!! I use Nvidia with stock drivers without any problem (no use of 3d) There are other examples. That's why
there should be an adequate replacement for a functionality before old things are dropped.
it here that we don't agree. they should be replacement, of course, but not at security or legal infringement price.
and if you don't worry, why use Linux in the first place, why not Windows (there are many more windows users than Unbutu users, no?)
If you have arguments, I am happy to discuss the topic with you. If you only want to write flames, then please stop it. You don't have to reply to my emails.
so don't say we must follow unbutu because it have more user than we have. I just show you how this argument sucks. jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
jdd wrote:
[...] you have problems related to general decision. modules are lacking because they was causing problems, not for I don't know what kind if hazardous decision. this is explained on the wiki.
Could you, at least, try to write proper English? Then I would have a chance to understand what you mean...
[...] nice. it's why these module where removed. and we couldn't afford to way.
Again, what does this mean? I don't understand it. But don't start to use "we" because you are obviously talking about your opinion, not the opinion of us all. Your opinion is at least not my opinion.
[...] if my house is at risk, I can't wait for a friendly solution.
What has this to do with the problem we've discussed?
[...] i this make it more complicated. This is the price to pay for safety. why bother to have a firewall? this is complicated! remove it... same thing
Again, your only writing flames.
[...] ask Nvidia!! I use Nvidia with stock drivers without any problem (no use of 3d)
NVIDIA is not responsible for the functionality that was offered in YaST. It was a service provided by Novell/SUSE and many users liked it. It has been removed in the initial version of SUSE 10.1. This made the installation process less comfortable for the user. So why should I blame NVIDIA for this? You didn't get the point. Hopefully, the end user got some of the functionality now back if I understood Marcus' email correctly. As I said before, from my point of view it would have been better to have a solution in place before dropping the original functionality. Some of the changes are really painful for users and, no, I don't share your opinion that immediate action was required - a better transition would have been possible. Hopefully, we'll see some of these problems solved in the long run with the build service offered by Novell.
[...] so don't say we must follow unbutu because it have more user than we have. I just show you how this argument sucks.
You didn't show anything useful. Well, you showed that you didn't understand what this is all about and what the points are. Sorry. Cheers, Th. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Hi, Thomas Hertweck schrieb:
NVIDIA is not responsible for the functionality that was offered in YaST. It was a service provided by Novell/SUSE and many users liked it. It has been removed in the initial version of SUSE 10.1. This made the installation process less comfortable for the user.
Agreed so far.
So why should I blame NVIDIA for this?
You shouldn't blame NVidia for this, but maybe for something else.
I don't share your opinion that immediate action was required - a better transition would have been possible. Hopefully, we'll see some of these problems solved in the long run with the build service offered by Novell.
Thomas, please read this post: http://zgp.org/pipermail/linux-elitists/2005-October/011317.html Especially these two sentences: "I, and others who hold copyrights on portions of the kernel are saying very clear things about this now, 'proprietary kernel modules are illegal.'" "Oh, and at least one major distro has been served with legal papers due to them shipping closed source kernel drivers, and more are on the way." Questions: - Do you know who this guy named Greg KH is and which job at which company he currently does? What will you answer him, and out of which position? Isn't the position of a long-term contributor and copyright holder slightly stronger than that of a user who doesn't do anything else with Linux than using it? - Do you know which 'major distro' it is that has been 'served with legal papers'? Honestly, I prefer not knowing it, and I prefer not knowing which ones are on the way. The decision has been made and will not be undone. It has been made very, very quickly and communicated very, very quickly, which makes me think that there were really good reasons to do so. Andreas Hanke --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Andreas Hanke wrote:
[...] Especially these two sentences:
"I, and others who hold copyrights on portions of the kernel are saying very clear things about this now, 'proprietary kernel modules are illegal.'"
"Oh, and at least one major distro has been served with legal papers due to them shipping closed source kernel drivers, and more are on the way."
Questions:
- Do you know who this guy named Greg KH is and which job at which company he currently does?
What will you answer him, and out of which position? Isn't the position of a long-term contributor and copyright holder slightly stronger than that of a user who doesn't do anything else with Linux than using it?
- Do you know which 'major distro' it is that has been 'served with legal papers'? Honestly, I prefer not knowing it, and I prefer not knowing which ones are on the way.
Andreas, I've meanwhile read quite a lot of articles about this topic, I know for which company GKH has worked in the past and for which company he's currently working, and all I can say about his position is: I don't really like it and I don't think that it does Linux users any good. I agree with you that those who really contribute to the Linux OS (kernel) should have more rights to influence the positions than people just using the OS, no doubt. I agree with you that it's much better to have open source drivers than closed-source third-party drivers. But, and this is the position I've had before, I think it's the wrong way to just "close the door" without an adequate solution in place. And from my point of view, this is exactly what GKH does. Maybe my point of view sounds naive for a kernel developer, but I've already seen many irrational statements from Linus, too... ;-) Cheers, Th. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Hi, Thomas Hertweck schrieb:
But, and this is the position I've had before, I think it's the wrong way to just "close the door" without an adequate solution in place.
Look at this graphics file: http://www.kroah.com/log/images/ols_2006_keynote_15.jpg This is not just a statement, it's the official position of Novell, Inc. There is now openSUSE and the community can influence some things up to a certain degree, but decisions like this one are (and should be, IMHO) outside the scope of what the community can influence because the impact is just too severe that the community can make an adequate decision. Don't get me wrong, it's not intended to be impolite, but IMHO continuing this discussion is pointless. The adequate solution is the driver process, it's already in place and now the other parties must adopt it, not the other way round. I doubt that anybody reading this list can change Novell's position, it's a management thing and there are mainly technical people and not management people on this list. Andreas Hanke --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Andreas, it was not the intention of this thread to change Novell's position concerning this topic. I don't think that anybody could achieve this anyway. Nevertheless, it's from my point of view important to discuss these topics as decisions also affect the community and the normal Linux user. So I don't think that the discussion was or is pointless. Thanks for shedding some light on it. I've learned quite a lot. Even so I still have a different position concerning some of the topics. Have a nice weekend, Th. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Andreas Hanke a écrit :
http://www.kroah.com/log/images/ols_2006_keynote_15.jpg
This is not just a statement, it's the official position of Novell, Inc. There is now openSUSE and the community can influence some things up to a certain degree, but decisions like this one are (and should be, IMHO) outside the scope of what the community can influence because the impact is just too severe that the community can make an adequate decision.
Novell could be aware that any non accepted decision could split the community and drop the work Novell already do. But I don't think this is the case here, _this_ decision looks very honest and respectfull of the hole Linux community. _Any_ application (including the Kernel) is in fact owned by his developpers. Anybody can fork and make a new Kernel branch (can they?) but having the ressources to do so seems unlikely, if ever anybody had the will to do so. I also think this decision have been very difficult to do for the kernel guys and so must be accepted, as difficult as it can be. jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 jdd wrote:
Andreas Hanke a écrit :
http://www.kroah.com/log/images/ols_2006_keynote_15.jpg
This is not just a statement, it's the official position of Novell, Inc. There is now openSUSE and the community can influence some things up to a certain degree, but decisions like this one are (and should be, IMHO) outside the scope of what the community can influence because the impact is just too severe that the community can make an adequate decision.
Novell could be aware that any non accepted decision could split the community and drop the work Novell already do. But I don't think this is the case here, _this_ decision looks very honest and respectfull of the hole Linux community.
Well.. sure, but... I think the main reason for that decision is probably the fact that binary-only kernel drivers are *illegal* as they break the GPL. Novell doesn't want to get into lawsuits against the FSF (or whatever kernel developer). I've seen somewhere (I think it was even on this list) that 2 distributions already got some nice mail (was it from the FSF ?) about that and could be sent to court.
_Any_ application (including the Kernel) is in fact owned by his developpers. Anybody can fork and make a new Kernel branch (can they?)
Totally not, unless you are referring to the GPL *only*. I work as a system architect for a large business and the code I write is not my property, it's owned by the company I work for. Even with some open source licenses (Sun's CDDL for example), you have to give up your ownership of the code and give it to the project. Actually, I'm not even 100% sure that the GPL explicitly states that the ownership remains with the author. I could be wrong though ;)
but having the ressources to do so seems unlikely, if ever anybody had the will to do so.
Indeed. The Linux kernel project is rather unique in its kind, given the large number of expert developers who are involved. There aren't many OSS projects of that size, except maybe OpenOffice.org or Mozilla (though I don't have numbers, just guessing).
I also think this decision have been very difficult to do for the kernel guys and so must be accepted, as difficult as it can be.
It hasn't been difficult. Some kernel devs have been very vocal and radical about it.. dare I say "religious", to say the least. They're in their right, I mean, they are doing all the hard work (although, don't forget "some" of them are actually paid for doing that), they own the code they contribute, so it's their decision. I just find most of them lack soft skills and communication is certainly not their strength. It could have been better prepared as well. cheers - -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ <pascal.bleser@skynet.be> <guru@unixtech.be> _\_v The more things change, the more they stay insane. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEy09ar3NMWliFcXcRAmzyAJ9v6++S+8L35Hreq46dgdpiwIMixgCfaaA4 CSY/aGeMya+qa0Srpqd2uSY= =Doea -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Pascal Bleser a écrit :
Well.. sure, but... I think the main reason for that decision is probably the fact that binary-only kernel drivers are *illegal* as they break the GPL.
as they where included for years, the question is why now :-)
_Any_ application (including the Kernel) is in fact owned by his developpers. Anybody can fork and make a new Kernel branch (can they?)
Totally not, unless you are referring to the GPL *only*.
I don't mean "legally" owned, but practically owned. If most of the kernel guys where resigning just now, it would be nearly impossible to continue they work
It hasn't been difficult. Some kernel devs have been very vocal and radical about it.. dare I say "religious", to say the least.
again, why not before?
I just find most of them lack soft skills and communication is certainly not their strength. It could have been better prepared as well.
general problem. best programmers are not (and how could they be?) best communication experts (and vice versa) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
jdd wrote:
Pascal Bleser a écrit :
Well.. sure, but... I think the main reason for that decision is probably the fact that binary-only kernel drivers are *illegal* as they break the GPL.
as they where included for years, the question is why now :-)
_Any_ application (including the Kernel) is in fact owned by his developpers. Anybody can fork and make a new Kernel branch (can they?)
Totally not, unless you are referring to the GPL *only*.
I don't mean "legally" owned, but practically owned. If most of the kernel guys where resigning just now, it would be nearly impossible to continue they work
It hasn't been difficult. Some kernel devs have been very vocal and radical about it.. dare I say "religious", to say the least.
again, why not before?
I just find most of them lack soft skills and communication is certainly not their strength. It could have been better prepared as well.
general problem. best programmers are not (and how could they be?) best communication experts (and vice versa)
jdd
The primary problem is that some vendors want to claim that they have Linux drivers, because that will bring more buyers, and they actually don't. The legal actions around are just the way to tell vendors that open source doesn't mean that they can play with the name kernel, brake it in million ways and than simple shift blame to kernel developers, damaging their reputation. The GPL is designed to protect original developers professional honor and right to be named as author (authorship) in many ways. The kernel is developing that means changing. Device drivers included as kernel modules must be adapted to compile with new kernel. They can't be in binary form, as you have to drop them out of new version of kernel, or stop kernel development until new version of driver is written and compiled by device vendor. Solution 1: Company gives a source under GPL. Kernel developers maintain drivers for free. That is how it works for many device drivers. Solution 2: Company gives source under other license or agreement. Kernel developers can accept only GPL. Reason: They have no money to hire lawyers to analyze proprietary licenses and other agreements, including famous nondisclosure agreements. The Free Software Foundation (FSF) legal team advice is to use GPL. They will cover GPL protection for free. Why they should analyze legal agreements? (Just click and accept:-) ) The agreements are legal bindings that will be enforced by legal authorities if one side intentionally or by mistake breaks it and get sued. To analyze all potential scenarios where kernel developers have to pay damages is job for legal experts (lawyers) and it needs much more time and space than one mail. Even attempt to analyze one single agreement will produce a lot more paper to describe what is allowed and what not by that agreement. Solution 3: Company writes device driver that will be controlled by kernel as any other program, that is called user space device driver. This solution means lesser maintenance for driver as it will work with different kernel versions, but it is all vendors responsibility to find and remove errors (bugs) if it doesn't work. Conclusion: The whole hype is produced by vendors that don't want to accept solutions 1 or 3, and still want to claim that they have Linux driver, that will bring some 3% more potential buyers. The hype is helped by naive users not realizing that playing with proprietary based agreements can take open source development model down, and in short time their nice, free Linux will seize to exist. Novell see the future with open source development model. They will not cut a branch they are sitting on, just to help few unfortunate computer users that were mislead by dishonest vendors. ATI and nVidia are examples how it can be done, if company really wants to sell their products to Linux users. -- Regards, Rajko. Visit http://en.opensuse.org/MiniSUSE --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Hi, Thomas Hertweck schrieb:
But, you know, it somehow looks like a fight between the open source community and (maybe) the Linux distributors on the one hand and the hardware/software driver manufacturers on the other hand. And the loser is the end user, as usual.
Yes, it is possible and valid to interpret the situation this way, and demanding the best available hardware support is a valid wishlist item from a user's point of view. Especially if there are other distros available with better winmodem support. But it's not as simple as that. There are not only users, those who are driving Linux forward are the active contributors, and as contributors, they are also copyright holders. The copyright license under which the Linux kernel is distributed is the GPL. After thinking about it a little bit, I tend to agree with the removal of these modules. Shipping them _is_ a legal risk. What happens if a Linux copyright holder sued Novell, claiming that shipping these modules is a GPL violation? Having to defend yourself against such an accuse would be an *extremely* embarrassing thing for a Linux distributor, even if the claim would be decided to be invalid in court.
I don't think it was a good idea to drop the shipment of proprietary modules at a moment's notice (from SUSE XX.X to XX.Y) *without* an adequate replacement that makes the transition as smooth as possible for the end user. First getting a solution in place and *then* making the move would have been much better from my point of view.
Well, actually there is sort of a transition: An infrastructure for packaging these modules independently of the kernel and even independently of the product. It is very sad that the manufacturer of the drivers needed for ThinkPad modems doesn't seem to make use of it so far. It works technically (today's kernel update went very smoothly here on my systems) and IMHO it's politically the right solution: Hardware vendors should carry the legal risks themselves by distributing the modules themselves, exclusively. Providing an infrastructure that makes the procedure as transparent to end users as possible is OK, carrying legal risks that the vendors of such drivers should carry themselves because it is *their* inability to comply with the Linux copyright license, called GPL, is not. It would be plain unfair.
Sometimes I really have problems explaining something like this to a user that is new to Linux and only wants an easy installation of his chosen Linux distribution (whatever it is)...
Explain it after the system is up and running, without winmodem support. I'm not aware of any "vital" piece of hardware that can only be made to work with proprietary modules. A winmodem is not vital. And yes, it _is_ currently really difficult to explain, but it will be much easier to explain once the first distributor of these modules has been sued. And I'm glad that it won't be Novell. Andreas Hanke --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
SOTL wrote:
¿Why Ubuntu is more popular tha SUSE despite thier young life?
Simple Ubuntu will install on all sort of hardware that OpenSuSE and SuSE will not.
You meant the other way round, didn't you? I have a problem installing Ubuntu 6.06 on a Compaq machine, it does a kernel oops right way. Could you get in touch off-line to help me get Ubuntu installed? (it's not exactly on-topic here).
In short SuSE 10.1 is only half finished suitable only for desktops
I have to disagree. We have 10.1 installed on a couple of servers as well as workstations - works just fine. /Per Jessen, Zürich --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
On Thu, Jul 20, 2006 at 07:32:53AM +0100, B.Weber@warwick.ac.uk wrote:
Greetings all,
I would like to share some of the concerns I have about the state of SUSE Linux / The openSUSE project. I hope this does not come across as a rant as it is not intended as such, but to point out issues in the hope that something may be done about them.
The perceived problem : Declining product quality
Obviously there is the unfortunate situation of 10.1 where critical flaws were allowed to remain in the final product, making it in my opinion
There was just 1 critical flaw in the development process, the very late introduction of the new package management. What is bad in the rest of the distribution?
unsuitable for use by people who don't know what they're doing, probably
I dont think so.
the first version of suse for a very long time for which this applies. I have not heard anything about what steps are being taken to ensure that this will not happen again, which has perhaps lead to the feeling amongst some that this is the sign of things to come.
Even we learn from our mistakes, rest assured.
In the past 3 or 4 years what has really improved in terms of the value added by SUSE? Every 6 months we get a new set of packages with exactly the same suse additions. Very little has really changed since the 7.x days compared to prior to that point.
Better hardware integration. More smoother installation. Always delivering the latest and greatest to you. We work with the upstream community, so most of our work also goes to the upstream packages. And the new values for 10.1: - Greatly enhanced handling of external package repositories, which was only handled step fatherly in older distributions. - Better wireless support by Novell/SUSE developed NetworkManager + GUIs.
Possible causes:
1: Lack of vision / communication
What causes the above observations? Is there really no vision of where SUSE Linux / openSUSE should be in 2-3 years time. What tangible
What needs to be done in larger scale work? Linux is at a point where there is not much work to do to make it working for everyone. Having a vision of where to go is difficult for us as "integrators". Yes, we might need some vision ... And you can help here too.
2: Difficulty of community involvement
- Communication (Lack of) Without communication of what the long term goals are, people generally have no idea of what they can be working on to help. The google summer of code project suggestions were good, but there is no reason these sort of things should be restricted to google summer of code. Suggestions of projects that could be taken on by community members would be helpful.
We try to communicate, see our biweekly meetings, our presence here, our talks at various conferences.
- Documentation (Lack of) It is difficult for people to work on things useful for SUSE if SUSE specific things are undocumented. Not everyone has time to read reams of code to determine how to use something. An example: libzypp - wonderful (apparently) new library for package management related stuff. Is there any api documentation beyond the automatically generated docs in the -devel package? No. Is there any documentation about what it actually does? No. Is there any documentation for packagers etc wishing to make use of new features like add on products? No.
Wrong, for the overview what it does at least: http://en.opensuse.org/Libzypp The regular user really would not care about it, since the tools drive it forward.
Solutions:
- Communicate the long term strategies to the community. If they really do not exist then leverage the community in deciding upon some.
We are listening to you. :) Ciao, Marcus --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Marcus Meissner wrote:
What needs to be done in larger scale work? Linux is at a point where there is not much work to do to make it working for everyone.
don't think so. depends of what you call "every one". Linux is VERY far from being able to be used by most people I know and the shame is that there is little more we can do :-( * help msoft against the software piracy? * have all game programmers use multi OS libraries? to stay on topic, I don't think debian synaptic is really better than Yast. I see how many users have problems unistalling things in Unbutu... jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Am Donnerstag, 20. Juli 2006 11:03 schrieb Marcus Meissner:
- Better wireless support by Novell/SUSE developed NetworkManager + GUIs.
You are right. This little tool combined with Suspend-to-RAM boosted up the usability of my laptop. This is really great work. Thank you. If you guys now go on and polish the package management to the same level, that would push SUSE a further step ahead. Dani --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Daniel Bertolo <daniel.bertolo@stiftung-buehl.ch> writes:
Am Donnerstag, 20. Juli 2006 11:03 schrieb Marcus Meissner:
- Better wireless support by Novell/SUSE developed NetworkManager + GUIs.
You are right. This little tool combined with Suspend-to-RAM boosted up the usability of my laptop. This is really great work. Thank you.
If you guys now go on and polish the package management to the same level, that would push SUSE a further step ahead.
We try hard - but this is a bit more complex. With our latest update, we should be much better already... Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, aj@suse.de, http://www.suse.de/~aj/ SUSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126
On Friday 28 July 2006 09.10, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
We try hard - but this is a bit more complex. With our latest update, we should be much better already...
Andreas
Hi! COuld anyone tell me where I can find such an update? I had been using the Yast update system for many versions, but since I installed 10.1 (both OSS and the boxed version) it's plain... unusable. The "registered" version refuses to register (keeps comming back to the "enter activation code" screen" and allways days there are no updates available. The OSS version sis configure and propose ugrades (including YAST upgrades). So I did upgrade.... and now the "configure" app just quits and the Yast Online Update app keeps reloading forever..... Thierry -- Le monde est fait d'imbéciles Qui se battent contre des demeurés Pour sauvegarder une société absurde Jean Yanne --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Thierry de Coulon <tcoulon@decoulon.ch> writes:
On Friday 28 July 2006 09.10, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
We try hard - but this is a bit more complex. With our latest update, we should be much better already...
Andreas
Hi! COuld anyone tell me where I can find such an update? I had been using the Yast update system for many versions, but since I installed 10.1 (both OSS and the boxed version) it's plain... unusable.
Install the rpms directly from one of the mirrors or use directly my test directory ftp.suse.com/pub/people/aj/10.1-package...
The "registered" version refuses to register (keeps comming back to the "enter activation code" screen" and allways days there are no updates available.
The OSS version sis configure and propose ugrades (including YAST upgrades). So I did upgrade.... and now the "configure" app just quits and the Yast Online Update app keeps reloading forever.....
This should not happen ;-(, you should be able to do this via YOU, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, aj@suse.de, http://www.suse.de/~aj/ SUSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126
Torsdag 20 juli 2006 11:03 skrev Marcus Meissner:
On Thu, Jul 20, 2006 at 07:32:53AM +0100, B.Weber@warwick.ac.uk wrote:
Greetings all,
I would like to share some of the concerns I have about the state of SUSE Linux / The openSUSE project. I hope this does not come across as a rant as it is not intended as such, but to point out issues in the hope that something may be done about them.
The perceived problem : Declining product quality
Obviously there is the unfortunate situation of 10.1 where critical flaws were allowed to remain in the final product, making it in my opinion
There was just 1 critical flaw in the development process, the very late introduction of the new package management.
What is bad in the rest of the distribution?
unsuitable for use by people who don't know what they're doing, probably
I dont think so.
the first version of suse for a very long time for which this applies. I have not heard anything about what steps are being taken to ensure that this will not happen again, which has perhaps lead to the feeling amongst some that this is the sign of things to come.
Even we learn from our mistakes, rest assured.
In the past 3 or 4 years what has really improved in terms of the value added by SUSE? Every 6 months we get a new set of packages with exactly the same suse additions. Very little has really changed since the 7.x days compared to prior to that point.
Better hardware integration. More smoother installation. Always delivering the latest and greatest to you.
We work with the upstream community, so most of our work also goes to the upstream packages.
And the new values for 10.1: - Greatly enhanced handling of external package repositories, which was only handled step fatherly in older distributions. - Better wireless support by Novell/SUSE developed NetworkManager + GUIs.
Possible causes:
1: Lack of vision / communication
What causes the above observations? Is there really no vision of where SUSE Linux / openSUSE should be in 2-3 years time. What tangible
What needs to be done in larger scale work? Linux is at a point where there is not much work to do to make it working for everyone.
Having a vision of where to go is difficult for us as "integrators".
Yes, we might need some vision ... And you can help here too.
2: Difficulty of community involvement
- Communication (Lack of) Without communication of what the long term goals are, people generally have no idea of what they can be working on to help. The google summer of code project suggestions were good, but there is no reason these sort of things should be restricted to google summer of code. Suggestions of projects that could be taken on by community members would be helpful.
We try to communicate, see our biweekly meetings, our presence here, our talks at various conferences.
- Documentation (Lack of) It is difficult for people to work on things useful for SUSE if SUSE specific things are undocumented. Not everyone has time to read reams of code to determine how to use something. An example: libzypp - wonderful (apparently) new library for package management related stuff. Is there any api documentation beyond the automatically generated docs in the -devel package? No. Is there any documentation about what it actually does? No. Is there any documentation for packagers etc wishing to make use of new features like add on products? No.
Wrong, for the overview what it does at least: http://en.opensuse.org/Libzypp
The regular user really would not care about it, since the tools drive it forward.
Solutions:
- Communicate the long term strategies to the community. If they really do not exist then leverage the community in deciding upon some.
We are listening to you. :)
Ciao, Marcus
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Sorry about the previous empty mail.. I was trying to figure out using different smtp-servers with K-mail.. got it now.. very nice. About the quality: I agree with Marcus - except package management - and maybe NetworkManager a little bit - 10.1 is really nice. I view it like this 10.1 was sacrificed on the alter of SLED - this was a "one off".. hopefully a "once in a lifetime" - but certainly only a "once every two years" tops. Unless of course a SLED Home is in the making which I understand is being considered - maybe in that case we (openSUSE) will continue to be crash-test-dummies - I certainly don't hope so. About Ubuntu: First thing: I think one thing openSUSE can learn from Ubuntu is that catering for home-users can be very helpful for the enterprise strategy. Ubuntu has been building it self up as a home distro for a couple of years - and seem to succesfully using this as a jump-off for there entry into enterprise. Why is Ubuntu so damn popular? .. since basically it's a pretty mediocre distro? I think this is why (some of it was mentioned before): CDs are thrown at you everywhere you go. 1 cd install. Package management doesn't need much hands-on-attention. More available packages. Automatix/EastUbuntu. And mainly - the huge Debian-community have been very happy to endorse Ubuntu - however I think that might change as they're realising Ubuntu are some disrespectful, forking sons of b...... About communication: I agree with Benji to some extent that communication is bad in some areas through the mailinglist. However if you use bugzilla to communicate your requests and ideas I find it's very responsive. I've heard bugreports at Ubuntu being ignored for weeks. But of course not everything can be discussed through bugzilla. Default desktop: I don't know if we wanna go there - if a default desktop was to be chosen the suits would decide - not the openSUSE-project - and we all know which one they prefer - though I believe the vast majority of openSUSE "activists" have a different preference. In the end I want to say I hope and expect that openSUSE/home-users are important to Novell as well - and that 10.2 will be released with out implementing very risky, immature stuff and that some marketing muscle will also be thrown in. Let 10.2 kick vista ass. Martin / cb400f --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Martin Schlander wrote:
implementing very risky, immature stuff and that some marketing muscle will also be thrown in. Let 10.2 kick vista ass.
tee shirts!! stickers!!! jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
-----Original Message----- From: jdd [mailto:jdd@dodin.org] Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 1:39 PM To: opensuse@opensuse.org Subject: Re: [opensuse] The state of openSUSE Martin Schlander wrote:
implementing very risky, immature stuff and that some marketing muscle will also be thrown in. Let 10.2 kick vista ass.
tee shirts!! stickers!!!
jdd
In you guy's experience is it better to upgrade or do a fresh install? When Is 10.2 coming out? -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org ___________________________________________________________________ Don’t miss an all-new season of HISTORY DETECTIVES. They’re probing the past and finding the facts. Mondays at 9pm et/pt on PBS. www.pbs.org/historydetectives ___________________________________________________________________ _________________________________________________________________ This email may contain material that is confidential or proprietary to PBS and is intended solely for use by the intended recipient. Any review, reliance or distribution of such material by others, or forwarding of such material without express permission, is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender and destroy all copies. __________________________________________________________________ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
participants (37)
-
Anders Johansson -
Andreas -
Andreas Hanke -
Andreas Jaeger -
B.Weber＠warwick.ac.uk -
BandiPat -
Bjørn Lie -
Boyd Lynn Gerber -
Christian Boltz -
Chuck Payne -
Claes＠work -
Clayton -
Daniel Bertolo -
Dominik Jais -
Druid -
Duncan Mac-Vicar Prett -
Eberhard Moenkeberg -
Gerd Hoffmann -
HG -
Jan Engelhardt -
jdd -
Ken Schneider -
Kenneth Schneider
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Kevin Markle -
Klaus Kaempf -
Kunael -
Manfred Tremmel -
Marcus Meissner -
Martin Schlander -
Matthias Hopf -
Pascal Bleser -
Per Jessen -
Rajko M -
SOTL -
Thierry de Coulon -
Thomas Hertweck -
Wolfgang Rosenauer