how true

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boricua

5 Nov 2005 5 Nov '05

00:26

these rumors of no more suse desktop?

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DC Parris

5 Nov 5 Nov

00:47

New subject: [SLE] how true

On Fri, November 4, 2005 19:25, boricua wrote:

...

these rumors of no more suse desktop?

--

Absolutely false. There's an article by Stephen Vaughn-Nichols on E-Week, if you want to follow up: http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1882118,00.asp -- DC Parris http://matheteuo.org/ http://chaddb.sourceforge.net/ "Hey man, whatever pickles your file!"

Bryan Tyson

07:09

New subject: Gnome disappointment

On Friday 04 November 2005 19:46, DC Parris wrote:

...

Absolutely false. There's an article by Stephen Vaughn-Nichols on E-Week, if you want to follow up: http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1882118,00.asp

This article contains a very disappointing piece of news: "Novell is making one large strategic change. The GNOME interface is going to become the default interface on both the SLES (SuSE Linux Enterprise Server) and Novell Linux Desktop line. KDE libraries will be supplied on both, but the bulk of Novell's interface moving forward will be on GNOME." Bryan ******************************************************** Powered by SuSE Linux 9.2 Professional KDE 3.3.0 KMail 1.7.1 This is a Microsoft-free computer Bryan S. Tyson bryantyson@earthlink.net ********************************************************

Randall R Schulz

07:20

New subject: [SLE] Gnome disappointment

Hi, On Friday 04 November 2005 23:23, Bryan Tyson wrote:

...

On Friday 04 November 2005 19:46, DC Parris wrote:

...
... http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1882118,00.asp

This article contains a very disappointing piece of news:

"Novell is making one large strategic change. The GNOME interface is going to become the default interface on both the SLES (SuSE Linux Enterprise Server) and Novell Linux Desktop line. KDE libraries will be supplied on both, but the bulk of Novell's interface moving forward will be on GNOME."

Disappointing indeed. Why would they do that?

...

Bryan

RRS

Ben Rosenberg

07:30

New subject: [SLE] Gnome disappointment

On 11/4/05, Randall R Schulz wrote:

...

Hi,

On Friday 04 November 2005 23:23, Bryan Tyson wrote:

...
On Friday 04 November 2005 19:46, DC Parris wrote:

...
... http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1882118,00.asp

This article contains a very disappointing piece of news:

"Novell is making one large strategic change. The GNOME interface is going to become the default interface on both the SLES (SuSE Linux Enterprise Server) and Novell Linux Desktop line. KDE libraries will be supplied on both, but the bulk of Novell's interface moving forward will be on GNOME."

Disappointing indeed. Why would they do that?

Nat Friedman and Miguel de Icaza the Ximian Gnome Monkies who are highups in the Linux part of the company.. why else? Oh.. they also want to be " just like Redhat " in this respect. I'll bet they did some customer survey and quite a few asked about Gnome. It's all about the marketing.. don't you know. ;D -Ben -- Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

Sid Boyce

18:00

New subject: [SLE] Gnome disappointment

Ben Rosenberg wrote:

...

On 11/4/05, Randall R Schulz wrote:

...
Hi,

On Friday 04 November 2005 23:23, Bryan Tyson wrote:

...
On Friday 04 November 2005 19:46, DC Parris wrote:

...
... http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1882118,00.asp This article contains a very disappointing piece of news:

"Novell is making one large strategic change. The GNOME interface is going to become the default interface on both the SLES (SuSE Linux Enterprise Server) and Novell Linux Desktop line. KDE libraries will be supplied on both, but the bulk of Novell's interface moving forward will be on GNOME." Disappointing indeed. Why would they do that?

Nat Friedman and Miguel de Icaza the Ximian Gnome Monkies who are highups in the Linux part of the company.. why else? Oh.. they also want to be " just like Redhat " in this respect. I'll bet they did some customer survey and quite a few asked about Gnome. It's all about the marketing.. don't you know. ;D

-Ben -- Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

If it's as a result of a marketing survey, it must be that they were told exactly what they needed to hear, then they ship it and customers desert them. If you want to read some interesting comments about gnome, go to www.tuxmagazine.com for Sept. issue 6. The major beef I have with gnome is that if you need to update an application, you can run into a massive dependency hell, you'll break existing apps into the bargain and your new app won't necessarily work though it installs. The garnome project which is supposed to automate gnome builds has never worked for me and by the looks of the stuff I get on the mailing list, it never will as there are an enormous number of patches daily for stuff that doesn't build, OK if all you do is building gnome. Amazingly konstruct which takes its cue from garnome but builds KDE is hardly a problem at all. If you install gnome from the distro and don't touch it, it's fine. On Solaris 10 SPARC, I thought I would try Sun's JDS (alias gnome) on an Ultra 5 and it was like wading through treacle, taking an age to do anything, so surprisingly as Sun glorified gnome, they also included a workable KDE in later builds, so I switched to KDE and appreciated just why they felt it necessary to include KDE - no doubts they had complaints about the unresponsiveness of gnome on smaller hardware footprints. Naturally Nat and Miguel think gnome is wonderful, it's their pet project along with mono which I gather in Spanish equates to "Monkey see, monkey do" and they are very upfront in their admiration for the way Microsoft does things, gnome even has a registry or so reckons Nick Petreley in one of his articles. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, licensed Private Pilot Retired IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support Specialist Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks

Mike McMullin

21:33

New subject: [SLE] Gnome disappointment

On Fri, 2005-11-04 at 23:30 -0800, Ben Rosenberg wrote:

...

On 11/4/05, Randall R Schulz wrote:

...
Hi,

On Friday 04 November 2005 23:23, Bryan Tyson wrote:

...
On Friday 04 November 2005 19:46, DC Parris wrote:

...
... http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1882118,00.asp

This article contains a very disappointing piece of news:

"Novell is making one large strategic change. The GNOME interface is going to become the default interface on both the SLES (SuSE Linux Enterprise Server) and Novell Linux Desktop line. KDE libraries will be supplied on both, but the bulk of Novell's interface moving forward will be on GNOME."

Disappointing indeed. Why would they do that?

Nat Friedman and Miguel de Icaza the Ximian Gnome Monkies who are highups in the Linux part of the company.. why else? Oh.. they also want to be " just like Redhat " in this respect. I'll bet they did some customer survey and quite a few asked about Gnome. It's all about the marketing.. don't you know. ;D

It might also have something to do with gnome seeming to be less demanding on the system than KDE. While I try and figure out why 9,3 is slow on my system, I've been using gnome. It doesn't fly, but unlike KDE the system is usable without having the time to make and drink a coffee between starting an app and being able to use it. Mike -- note this is my current experience, not an invitation to start a flamer about gui's

Jonathan Brooks

6 Nov 6 Nov

10:20

New subject: [SLE] Gnome disappointment

Mike McMullin wrote:

...

On Fri, 2005-11-04 at 23:30 -0800, Ben Rosenberg wrote:

...
On 11/4/05, Randall R Schulz wrote:

...
Hi,

On Friday 04 November 2005 23:23, Bryan Tyson wrote:

...
On Friday 04 November 2005 19:46, DC Parris wrote:

...
... http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1882118,00.asp

This article contains a very disappointing piece of news:

"Novell is making one large strategic change. The GNOME interface is going to become the default interface on both the SLES (SuSE Linux Enterprise Server) and Novell Linux Desktop line. KDE libraries will be supplied on both, but the bulk of Novell's interface moving forward will be on GNOME."

Disappointing indeed. Why would they do that?

Nat Friedman and Miguel de Icaza the Ximian Gnome Monkies who are highups in the Linux part of the company.. why else? Oh.. they also want to be " just like Redhat " in this respect. I'll bet they did some customer survey and quite a few asked about Gnome. It's all about the marketing.. don't you know. ;D

It might also have something to do with gnome seeming to be less demanding on the system than KDE. While I try and figure out why 9,3 is slow on my system, I've been using gnome. It doesn't fly, but unlike KDE the system is usable without having the time to make and drink a coffee between starting an app and being able to use it.

Mike -- note this is my current experience, not an invitation to start a flamer about gui's

Financial suicide. Please see my earlier posts about gnome and SuSE x86_64, basically it doesn't work. There are bugs in it which mean that gnome hogs 100% CPU - this has been reported, has been known about for months, and yet nothing happens. As soon as I switched to KDE I could use my machine. Now personally I like the clean interface of Gnome, but it seems like a lot more time and effort is put into making KDE stable (if a bit slow). Hopefully there will be a U-turn soon, or I will be dropping SuSE from all our machines. Best wishes, Jon.

Andre Truter

10:55

New subject: [SLE] Gnome disappointment

On 11/6/05, Jonathan Brooks wrote:

...

Financial suicide. Please see my earlier posts about gnome and SuSE x86_64, basically it doesn't work. There are bugs in it which mean that gnome hogs 100% CPU - this has been reported, has been known about for months, and yet nothing happens. As soon as I switched to KDE I could use my machine.

Hmm. Interesting. I have been running SUSE with GNOME desktop on two x86_64 boxes since version 9.3 and my GNOME is not hogging my system. Mono do that from time to time, but I disable Beagle (mono does the same thing on 32-bit machines too). This is a problem with Beagle, not GNOME. If you used Beagle under KDE, or Xfce, or FWVM, then you would end up with the same problem.

...

Now personally I like the clean interface of Gnome, but it seems like a lot more time and effort is put into making KDE stable (if a bit slow).

This being true, do you really think they will discontinue KDE and commit "financial suicide"

...

Hopefully there will be a U-turn soon, or I will be dropping SuSE from all our machines.

What do you mean with a U-Turn? Do you mean they should focus more on getting GNOME better supported? (I would like that) -- Andre Truter | Software Engineer | Registered Linux user #185282 ICQ #40935899 | AIM: trusoftzaf | http://www.trusoft.za.org ~ A dinosaur is a salamander designed to Mil Spec ~

Fred A. Miller

9 Nov 9 Nov

19:57

New subject: [SLE] Gnome disappointment

On Sunday 06 November 2005 5:19 am, Jonathan Brooks wrote:

...

Financial suicide. Please see my earlier posts about gnome and SuSE x86_64, basically it doesn't work. There are bugs in it which mean that gnome hogs 100% CPU - this has been reported, has been known about for months, and yet nothing happens. As soon as I switched to KDE I could use my machine.

Now personally I like the clean interface of Gnome, but it seems like a lot more time and effort is put into making KDE stable (if a bit slow).

Hopefully there will be a U-turn soon, or I will be dropping SuSE from all our machines.

I'd have to do something......that's for sure!! Gnome isn't anywhere near as mature, and the apps. for it, like the file manager are a joke compared to those for KDE. Simply, Gnome is barely usable. Fred -- Paid purchaser of ALL SuSE Linux releases since 6.x

James Knott

5 Nov 5 Nov

12:57

New subject: [SLE] Gnome disappointment

Randall R Schulz wrote:

...

Hi,

On Friday 04 November 2005 23:23, Bryan Tyson wrote:

...
On Friday 04 November 2005 19:46, DC Parris wrote:

...
... http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1882118,00.asp This article contains a very disappointing piece of news:

"Novell is making one large strategic change. The GNOME interface is going to become the default interface on both the SLES (SuSE Linux Enterprise Server) and Novell Linux Desktop line. KDE libraries will be supplied on both, but the bulk of Novell's interface moving forward will be on GNOME."

Disappointing indeed. Why would they do that?

Particularly considering that most (according to Tux Magazine) people use KDE.

Kevanf1

13:05

New subject: [SLE] Gnome disappointment

On 05/11/05, James Knott wrote:

...

Randall R Schulz wrote:

...
Hi,

On Friday 04 November 2005 23:23, Bryan Tyson wrote:

...
On Friday 04 November 2005 19:46, DC Parris wrote:

...
... http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1882118,00.asp This article contains a very disappointing piece of news:

"Novell is making one large strategic change. The GNOME interface is going to become the default interface on both the SLES (SuSE Linux Enterprise Server) and Novell Linux Desktop line. KDE libraries will be supplied on both, but the bulk of Novell's interface moving forward will be on GNOME."

Disappointing indeed. Why would they do that?

Particularly considering that most (according to Tux Magazine) people use KDE.

I have to say that I'm not altogether surprised. Who is that that did a lot of develoment work on Evolution? Try Novell.... The intent is obviously there to support Gnome in a bigger way. I'm not really bothered as long as the full KDE suite is still avaialble for use as has been stated. Gnome is ok I just prefer KDE. Come to that I actually like some of the other lightweight desktops over both of these heavyweights :-) -- ============================================== I am only human, please forgive me if I make a mistake it is not deliberate. ============================================== Take care. Kevan Farmer 34 Hill Street Cheslyn Hay Staffordshire WS6 7HR

Jerry Feldman

17:18

New subject: [SLE] Gnome disappointment

The way I read where SuSE is going is that there are 2 enterprise products, SLES and Desktop. In those cases, GNOME may be a better default fit because they are in head-to-head competition with Red Hat. In the case of the personal systems (Open SuSE and SuSE Linux) providing and supporting both KDE and GNOME is a good move. For a while they were looking to create an entirely new system based on the "best" features of both. As far as GNOME vs. KDE, it is the same as the vi vs. EMACS and that is personal preference or religion. -- Jerry Feldman Boston Linux and Unix user group http://www.blu.org PGP key id:C5061EA9 PGP Key fingerprint:053C 73EC 3AC1 5C44 3E14 9245 FB00 3ED5 C506 1EA9

Janne Karhunen

07:40

New subject: [SLE] Gnome disappointment

On Saturday 05 November 2005 09:23, Bryan Tyson wrote:

...

...
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1882118,00.asp

This article contains a very disappointing piece of news:

"Novell is making one large strategic change. The GNOME interface is going to become the default interface on both the SLES (SuSE Linux Enterprise Server) and Novell Linux Desktop line. KDE libraries will be supplied on both, but the bulk of Novell's interface moving forward will be on GNOME."

Incredible. They are stupid enough to screw their own customers. This will probably have a drastic influence on their current popularity. -- // Janne

Andre Truter

08:58

New subject: [SLE] Gnome disappointment

On 11/5/05, Janne Karhunen wrote:

...

Incredible. They are stupid enough to screw their own customers. This will probably have a drastic influence on their current popularity.

Why do you feel that they are screwing thier customers? If you read the article you will note that the GNOME predominance is for SLES and NLD, *not* openSUSE. Seeing that SUSE Linux (used to be SuSE professional) is based on OpenSUSE and therefore it too will still have a strong KDE backing as it used to have. If you had a look at NLD 9, then you might have noticed that it already has a GNOME desktop, and not KDE. So, don't get your knickers in a knot, you will still be able to use KDE on SUSE 10.x and OpenSUSE. PS: I also doubt if having KDE as the default desktop will influence SUSE popularity, as KDE will still be an option an all you have to do is what we GNOME users have been doing and that is select KDE in stead of GNOME as your desktop. -- Andre Truter | Software Engineer | Registered Linux user #185282 ICQ #40935899 | AIM: trusoftzaf | http://www.trusoft.za.org ~ A dinosaur is a salamander designed to Mil Spec ~

Andreas Jaeger

09:39

New subject: [SLE] Gnome disappointment

Andre Truter writes:

...

[...] If you read the article you will note that the GNOME predominance is for SLES and NLD, *not* openSUSE. Seeing that SUSE Linux (used to be SuSE professional) is based on OpenSUSE and therefore it too will still have a strong KDE backing as it used to have.

If you had a look at NLD 9, then you might have noticed that it already has a GNOME desktop, and not KDE.

NLD9 had also KDE as desktop.

...

So, don't get your knickers in a knot, you will still be able to use KDE on SUSE 10.x and OpenSUSE.

Yes, SUSE Linux will continue to have KDE as desktop, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, aj@suse.de, http://www.suse.de/~aj SUSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

Andre Truter

09:51

New subject: [SLE] Gnome disappointment

On 11/5/05, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

...
If you had a look at NLD 9, then you might have noticed that it already has a GNOME desktop, and not KDE.

NLD9 had also KDE as desktop.

Ah, my mistake. I installed NLD a few months ago, and could not remember if it had KDE as an option or not. But I think GNOME was the default. Or maybe I am just so used to selecting GNOME that it felt like the default to me. :-)

...

...
So, don't get your knickers in a knot, you will still be able to use KDE on SUSE 10.x and OpenSUSE.

Yes, SUSE Linux will continue to have KDE as desktop,

I wish people would read the article properly and try to understand the differences between SLES, NLD, SUSE and OpenSUSE before they panic. -- Andre Truter | Software Engineer | Registered Linux user #185282 ICQ #40935899 | AIM: trusoftzaf | http://www.trusoft.za.org ~ A dinosaur is a salamander designed to Mil Spec ~

Janne Karhunen

09:54

New subject: [SLE] Gnome disappointment

On Saturday 05 November 2005 10:58, Andre Truter wrote:

...

...
Incredible. They are stupid enough to screw their own customers. This will probably have a drastic influence on their current popularity.

Why do you feel that they are screwing thier customers?

Being KDE focused distribution is probably why some customers have chosen SUSE in the first place. By far most of their existing users use KDE and prefer it. If SUSEs management is unwilling to accept this fact because they have emotional ties with Gnome, it's really sad. They are out of luck in this game. Not listening to your customers will usually kill any business, let alone SUSEs.

...

If you read the article you will note that the GNOME predominance is for SLES and NLD, *not* openSUSE. Seeing that SUSE Linux (used to be SuSE professional) is based on OpenSUSE and therefore it too will still have a strong KDE backing as it used to have.

This is just a cheap trick to try to keep some customers, but it really is just a bunch of management jargon. Even ATI has claimed that they 'support' Linux for over 5 years now. -- // Janne

Andre Truter

10:05

New subject: [SLE] Gnome disappointment

On 11/5/05, Janne Karhunen wrote:

...

On Saturday 05 November 2005 10:58, Andre Truter wrote:

...
Why do you feel that they are screwing thier customers?

Being KDE focused distribution is probably why some customers have chosen SUSE in the first place. By far most of their existing users use KDE and prefer it. If SUSEs management is unwilling to accept this fact because they have emotional ties with Gnome, it's really sad. They are out of luck in this game. Not listening to your customers will usually kill any business, let alone SUSEs.

1) Is it mentioned anywhere that SLES and NLD will *NOT* include KDE anymore? 2) Are you talking about SUSE or SLES or NLD? 3) What does the article say about OpenSUSE (Sounds like questions for the comprehension tests we had ages ago in school) Just becuase KDE is not the option with the tick next to it by default does NOT mean that KDE is not supported anymore, and I have not read anywhere that anybody from SUSE or Novell mentioned that they will stop including or supporting KDE anymore on any of their products. People from SUSE can maybe cofirm this.. It looks to me that people have read half a word and made 1000 or thier own assumptions without reading any further or thinking about what the article says and came to the conclusion that SUSE and Novell is abandoning KDE. Maybe people need to do a bit more of those comprehension tests we had in school. :-) -- Andre Truter | Software Engineer | Registered Linux user #185282 ICQ #40935899 | AIM: trusoftzaf | http://www.trusoft.za.org ~ A dinosaur is a salamander designed to Mil Spec ~

Janne Karhunen

10:12

New subject: [SLE] Gnome disappointment

On Saturday 05 November 2005 12:05, Andre Truter wrote:

...

1) Is it mentioned anywhere that SLES and NLD will *NOT* include KDE anymore?

"The entire KDE graphical interface and product family will continue to be supported and delivered on OpenSuSE," said Mancusi-Ungaro. On opensuse, not on the others.

...

2) Are you talking about SUSE or SLES or NLD? 3) What does the article say about OpenSUSE

Enterprise offering shows the way, it does not matter. Rest is just management jargon to try to cover this up. -- // Janne

Andre Truter

10:30

New subject: [SLE] Gnome disappointment

On 11/5/05, Janne Karhunen wrote:

...

On Saturday 05 November 2005 12:05, Andre Truter wrote:

...
1) Is it mentioned anywhere that SLES and NLD will *NOT* include KDE anymore?

"The entire KDE graphical interface and product family will continue to be supported and delivered on OpenSuSE," said Mancusi-Ungaro.

On opensuse, not on the others.

No, that paragraph does not state that KDE will be supported only on OpenSUSE, it only states that the *entire* KDE graphical interface .... will be supported on OpenSUSE. There is nothing that says that KDE will NOT be supported on NLD or SLES, they only mention that the focus of SLES and NLD will more towards GNOME. "Novell is making one large strategic change. The GNOME interface is going to become the default interface on both the SLES (SuSE Linux Enterprise Server) and Novell Linux Desktop line. KDE libraries will be supplied on both, but the bulk of Novell's interface moving forward will be on GNOME. " It says that GNOME will be the *default*, not the *only* desktop. Huge difference between 'default' and 'only'

...

...
2) Are you talking about SUSE or SLES or NLD? 3) What does the article say about OpenSUSE

Enterprise offering shows the way, it does not matter. Rest is just management jargon to try to cover this up.

I gather that you do not understand the OpenSUSE project and that you also did not read the email from Adreas Jeager. But if you want to beleive that KDE will die a horrible death in SUSE then go ahead. People also beleived that Novell will kill SUSE when they bought it, just as people beleived that disaster will strike on 1 Jan 2000 due to the 'milenium bug'. All I say is: Read the article in its context and do not panic about assumptions that you make. (The article is actually about roumers of Linux developers getting sacked - mostly GNOME-related at that: mono, evolution and general desktop) If Novell/SUSE announce that NLD 10 or SLES 10 will not include KDE and only have GNOME, then I would say: Okay, maybe time to panic. If they anounce that SUSE Linux will not include KDE anymore, then I would say : PANIC! And if the OpenSUSE project announce that KDE will not be supported anymore then I would say: Did the KDE project die or something? -- Andre Truter | Software Engineer | Registered Linux user #185282 ICQ #40935899 | AIM: trusoftzaf | http://www.trusoft.za.org ~ A dinosaur is a salamander designed to Mil Spec ~

Silviu Marin-Caea

7 Nov 7 Nov

09:07

New subject: [SLE] Gnome disappointment

Andre Truter wrote:

...

If Novell/SUSE announce that NLD 10 or SLES 10 will not include KDE and only have GNOME, then I would say: Okay, maybe time to panic.

If they anounce that SUSE Linux will not include KDE anymore, then I would say : PANIC!

And if the OpenSUSE project announce that KDE will not be supported anymore then I would say: Did the KDE project die or something?

1. A lot of KDE developers are paid by SUSE. How is money made: by selling Enterprise products; certainly not by putting OpenSUSE out for freebeer download. If KDE slips out of focus at SUSE's it can't be good for those KDE developers that have to eat, can it? 2. If KDE remains default in OpenSUSE, but Gnome is default for Enterprise, is not really a good thing. People want the same thing at home and at work. Think Windows XP, home, server, it's all the same. 3. How long until another "cost cutting" wave comes at Novell and sees KDE as a waste of money? It will be much easier to see it that way, if the Enterprise products have come to not depend on it. 4. The power of DEFAULT is immense. The DEFAULT reigns supreme. 5. Gnome is brown. Windows Vista isn't, it looks good. Which would you show to Windows people (that just use the default) that are taking a look at Linux for the first time? The brown thing or the good looking KDE?

Marc Collin

16:43

New subject: [SLE] Gnome disappointment

Le 7 Novembre 2005 04:07, Silviu Marin-Caea a écrit :

...

1. A lot of KDE developers are paid by SUSE. How is money made: by selling Enterprise products; certainly not by putting OpenSUSE out for freebeer download. If KDE slips out of focus at SUSE's it can't be good for those KDE developers that have to eat, can it?

before novell buy suse, suse selling come from professionial and home linux not corporate....

...

2. If KDE remains default in OpenSUSE, but Gnome is default for Enterprise, is not really a good thing. People want the same thing at home and at work. Think Windows XP, home, server, it's all the same.

there are a couple of time, novell said majority of their customer prefer kde... and now their switch to gnome... very funny

...

5. Gnome is brown. Windows Vista isn't, it looks good. Which would you show to Windows people (that just use the default) that are taking a look at Linux for the first time? The brown thing or the good looking KDE?

majority of people about 65% use kde... gnome lost market share every years

Ken Schneider

16:53

New subject: [SLE] Gnome disappointment

On Mon, 2005-11-07 at 11:38 -0500, Marc Collin wrote:

...

Le 7 Novembre 2005 04:07, Silviu Marin-Caea a écrit :

...
1. A lot of KDE developers are paid by SUSE. How is money made: by selling Enterprise products; certainly not by putting OpenSUSE out for freebeer download. If KDE slips out of focus at SUSE's it can't be good for those KDE developers that have to eat, can it?

before novell buy suse, suse selling come from professionial and home linux not corporate....

Actually there was SLES before Novell bought SuSE so there was revenue from corporate sales. -- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998

Allen

8 Nov 8 Nov

18:03

New subject: [SLE] Gnome disappointment

On Mon, Nov 07, 2005 at 11:07:49AM +0200, Silviu Marin-Caea wrote:

...

Andre Truter wrote:

...
If Novell/SUSE announce that NLD 10 or SLES 10 will not include KDE and only have GNOME, then I would say: Okay, maybe time to panic.

If they anounce that SUSE Linux will not include KDE anymore, then I would say : PANIC!

And if the OpenSUSE project announce that KDE will not be supported anymore then I would say: Did the KDE project die or something?

1. A lot of KDE developers are paid by SUSE. How is money made: by selling Enterprise products; certainly not by putting OpenSUSE out for freebeer download. If KDE slips out of focus at SUSE's it can't be good for those KDE developers that have to eat, can it?

Lots of Open Source projects aren't on the SUSE payroll, they get by.

...

2. If KDE remains default in OpenSUSE, but Gnome is default for Enterprise, is not really a good thing. People want the same thing at home and at work. Think Windows XP, home, server, it's all the same.

Actually Windows Server 2003 looks like.... A polished Windows 2000. XP looks nothing like it. Again, you're the one saying BY DEFAULT ;)

...

3. How long until another "cost cutting" wave comes at Novell and sees KDE as a waste of money? It will be much easier to see it that way, if the Enterprise products have come to not depend on it.

4. The power of DEFAULT is immense. The DEFAULT reigns supreme.

See above.

...

5. Gnome is brown. Windows Vista isn't, it looks good. Which would you show to Windows people (that just use the default) that are taking a look at Linux for the first time? The brown thing or the good looking KDE?

Enlightenemnt. The water wave look on the bottom making it looks like you have a pond on your desktop, the cool sound effects, and of course Eterm which I miss immensly. Not to mention the themes for Eterm make it look like it's stright out of Star Wars. THAT is what I show my Windows using people. And they are blown away every time.

...

-- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

Silviu Marin-Caea

9 Nov 9 Nov

07:33

New subject: [SLE] Gnome disappointment

Allen wrote:

...

Lots of Open Source projects aren't on the SUSE payroll, they get by.

If SUSE stops supporting (with money) the KDE development would you call that a minimal loss? I wouldn't think so, it's MAJOR!

Roger Oberholtzer

07:41

New subject: [SLE] Gnome disappointment

On Wed, 2005-11-09 at 09:33 +0200, Silviu Marin-Caea wrote:

...

Allen wrote:

...
Lots of Open Source projects aren't on the SUSE payroll, they get by.

If SUSE stops supporting (with money) the KDE development would you call that a minimal loss?

I wouldn't think so, it's MAJOR!

Yes, it is. Perhaps SUSE feel that KDE is far enough along now that they can proceed with less help from SUSE. Maybe they want to now help GNOME so that it can reach the same completeness as KDE. (Flame away. Don't care. My opinion is my own.) Then there may really be two desktop choices. This way, they do not have all their desktop eggs in one basket. Maybe SUSE's KDE experience will be useful in making GNOME and KDE play nice together. Of course, some sort of roadmap from SUSE would help. I hope they are working on one. -- Roger Oberholtzer OPQ Systems AB

Allen

18:54

New subject: [SLE] Gnome disappointment

On Wed, Nov 09, 2005 at 09:33:33AM +0200, Silviu Marin-Caea wrote:

...

Allen wrote:

...
Lots of Open Source projects aren't on the SUSE payroll, they get by.

If SUSE stops supporting (with money) the KDE development would you call that a minimal loss?

I wouldn't think so, it's MAJOR!

Not nearly as major as the amount of cash Novell is losing right now. Perhaps more of us should stop bitching about little tiny problems and start actually buying things we support? And maybe when you go to work you could talk to the people i charge and switch to Novell instead of whatever is used? At the college I go to they were all RedHat people, I got half my class running SUSE and they paid for it. If Novell loses money, they have to do something. They aren't a charity, they are a business BUY things from them. -Allen

...

-- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

Ben Rosenberg

19:23

New subject: [SLE] Gnome disappointment

On 11/9/05, Allen wrote: Not nearly as major as the amount of cash Novell is losing right now.

...

Perhaps more of us should stop bitching about little tiny problems and start actually buying things we support?

Been doing that since 1997 when you were probably in Jr. HIgh. And maybe when you go to work you could talk to the people i charge and

...

switch to Novell instead of whatever is used?

I have 60 SUSE db/MX servers.. what more can *I* do? A lot us here buy SUSE .. it's only in the last few months that OpenSUSE has even existed. Prior to this there were NO free downloads with the exception of the PITA FTP install. At the college I go to This explains a LOT of your statements. You not even in the real world yet and you have the gaul to tell the users of this list WTF to do and make innuendos that they're nuts because they get upset about things like this. You wet behind the ears nuckle head.. go take another class that tells you how things are "suppose" to be. Because you obviously have no bloody clue what reality is. If Novell loses money, they have to do something. They aren't a charity,

...

they are a business.

Yep. This is exactly true. And if they lose more customers by what they do then the customers they gain.. that's the free market. What this whole thread has been about so far is the fact that the customers Novell ALREADY have aren't happy with the direction they're going. Becoming more like Redhat isn't going to get them Redhat's market and if you look at OpenSUSE and all the other things they've been doing.. it's what they've been moving toward. But then again you're a college student and aren't in the corp. world. So your opinion means close to nothing. BUY things from them. That's the POINT you imbecile .. we ARE their customers and we are saying that WE won't be their customers if they fuck KDE.. don't you friggin get it? How many times does it have to be said .. once more I guess.. " If they start dropping support for KDE, we are going to take our business elsewhere. " It's we who have been paying $55-90 every six months for their releases.. it's we who have kept this distro alive over the years. Quite a few of us have been on these lists and evangelizing for SUSE for years. You just simply do NOT understand and that's fine. But don't start telling people they are of low IQ or that they were tinfoil hats because they have an opinion. At least some of us have a basis for said opinion and can back it up. -- Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

boricua

10 Nov 10 Nov

00:13

New subject: [SLE] Gnome disappointment

...

BUY things from them.

That's the POINT you imbecile .. we ARE their customers and we are saying that WE won't be their customers if they fuck KDE.. don't you friggin get it? How many times does it have to be said .. once more I guess.. " If they start dropping support for KDE, we are going to take our business elsewhere. " It's we who have been paying $55-90 every six months for their releases.. it's we who have kept this distro alive over the years. Quite a few of us have been on these lists and evangelizing for SUSE for years.

You just simply do NOT understand and that's fine. But don't start telling people they are of low IQ or that they were tinfoil hats because they have an opinion. At least some of us have a basis for said opinion and can back it up.

AMEN, i hate to say it b/c i have used suse since 6.0 and learned a lot but i think suse its on its way down unless in changes course

Allen

01:02

New subject: [SLE] Gnome disappointment

On Wed, Nov 09, 2005 at 11:23:09AM -0800, Ben Rosenberg wrote:

...

On 11/9/05, Allen wrote:

Not nearly as major as the amount of cash Novell is losing right now.

...
Perhaps more of us should stop bitching about little tiny problems and start actually buying things we support?

Been doing that since 1997 when you were probably in Jr. HIgh.

Yea I forgot the only people with any respect are those who wear depends to stop the little potty problem.

...

And maybe when you go to work you could talk to the people i charge and

...
switch to Novell instead of whatever is used?

I have 60 SUSE db/MX servers.. what more can *I* do? A lot us here buy SUSE .. it's only in the last few months that OpenSUSE has even existed. Prior to this there were NO free downloads with the exception of the PITA FTP install.

At the college I go to

This explains a LOT of your statements. You not even in the real world yet and you have the gaul to tell the users of this list WTF to do and make innuendos that they're nuts because they get upset about things like this. You wet behind the ears nuckle head.. go take another class that tells you how things are "suppose" to be. Because you obviously have no bloody clue what reality is.

I'll take that class when you can learn how to quote right. Tard.

...

If Novell loses money, they have to do something. They aren't a charity,

...
they are a business.

Yep. This is exactly true. And if they lose more customers by what they do then the customers they gain.. that's the free market. What this whole thread has been about so far is the fact that the customers Novell ALREADY have aren't happy with the direction they're going. Becoming more like Redhat isn't going to get them Redhat's market and if you look at OpenSUSE and all the other things they've been doing.. it's what they've been moving toward. But then again you're a college student and aren't in the corp. world. So your opinion means close to nothing.

You're right I don't work corporate. My work is all govt related.

...

BUY things from them.

That's the POINT you imbecile .. we ARE their customers and we are saying that WE won't be their customers if they fuck KDE.. don't you friggin get it? How many times does it have to be said .. once more I guess.. " If they start dropping support for KDE, we are going to take our business elsewhere. " It's we who have been paying $55-90 every six months for their releases.. it's we who have kept this distro alive over the years. Quite a few of us have been on these lists and evangelizing for SUSE for years.

Ahhh the number of flames I got when I said fuck once. Maybe it's just me no one likes and I'M the asshole and not you. Hiding behind that keyboard.

...

You just simply do NOT understand and that's fine. But don't start telling people they are of low IQ or that they were tinfoil hats because they have an opinion. At least some of us have a basis for said opinion and can back it up.

I don't believe I said the word tin foil hat jack ass.

...

-- Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

Steven T. Hatton

02:33

New subject: [SLE] Gnome disappointment

On Wednesday 09 November 2005 08:05 pm, Allen wrote:

...

Yea I forgot the only people with any respect are those who wear depends to stop the little potty problem.

The only people who have my respect are those who have earned it.

mike

5 Nov 5 Nov

10:47

New subject: [SLE] Gnome disappointment

On Saturday 05 November 2005 11:12, Janne Karhunen wrote:

...

On Saturday 05 November 2005 12:05, Andre Truter wrote:

...
1) Is it mentioned anywhere that SLES and NLD will *NOT* include KDE anymore?

"The entire KDE graphical interface and product family will continue to be supported and delivered on OpenSuSE," said Mancusi-Ungaro.

On opensuse, not on the others.

And where do you suppose that the 'others' get their codebase? That might be a hard question, but I'm sure you will figure it out.

...

...
2) Are you talking about SUSE or SLES or NLD? 3) What does the article say about OpenSUSE

Enterprise offering shows the way, it does not matter. Rest is just management jargon to try to cover this up.

Oh, give it up. Your whining is becoming stale. Here's the deal. If you don't like the direction they are going, try another distro. I understand that Kubuntu works quite nicely WITH the kde desktop. Then when you realize that the base for kubuntu is ubuntu which uses gnome, complain that it kde isn't the default. See how far it gets you. So far you've taken the approach that SUSE is dropping kde completely. That is blatantly false. They will focus the enterprise versions on Gnome, but who knows. That might even change if enough folks speak up. The article that started this discussion has already been debunked several times on various sites. Mike -- Powered by SuSE 9.3 Kernel 2.6.11 KDE 3.4.0 Kmail 1.8 For Mondo/Mindi backup support go to http://www.mikenjane.net/~mike 11:40am up 5 days 20:40, 4 users, load average: 2.07, 2.31, 2.35

David Robertson

13:11

New subject: [SLE] Gnome disappointment

On Saturday 05 November 2005 12:54, Janne Karhunen wrote: --snip

...

Being KDE focused distribution is probably why some customers have chosen SUSE in the first place. By far most of their existing users use KDE and prefer it.

--snip I frequently vary my desktop and have run Gnome, KDE, XFCE and Fluxbox, to name but a few, on SuSE Linux, but I always end up coming back to Gnome because of its clean and simple approach. The main reason I prefer SuSE over other distros is YaST - it leaves all other admin tools way behind. As far as the desktop is concerned I can run what I want and obviously will still have that choice. I have friends who run KDE on RedHat/Fedora - it's the underlying framework that's important. SuSE has always supported KDE and it seems that this will continue, so I don't really see the problem. The key word is choice and it still is there. David -- Registered Linux User No 207521 The Linux Counter: http://counter.li.org/ "The above is my personal opinion and does not necessarily reflect that of the little voices in my head."

Allen

7 Nov 7 Nov

00:19

New subject: [SLE] Gnome disappointment

On Sat, Nov 05, 2005 at 11:54:24AM +0200, Janne Karhunen wrote:

...

On Saturday 05 November 2005 10:58, Andre Truter wrote:

...
...
Incredible. They are stupid enough to screw their own customers. This will probably have a drastic influence on their current popularity.

Why do you feel that they are screwing thier customers?

Being KDE focused distribution is probably why some customers have chosen SUSE in the first place. By far most of their existing users use KDE and prefer it. If SUSEs management is unwilling to accept this fact because they have emotional ties with Gnome, it's really sad. They are out of luck in this game. Not listening to your customers will usually kill any business, let alone SUSEs.

People are going to drop SUSE because the default Desktop (Not the ONLY desktop, just the default) is going to be changed? Are you kidding me?

...

...
If you read the article you will note that the GNOME predominance is for SLES and NLD, *not* openSUSE. Seeing that SUSE Linux (used to be SuSE professional) is based on OpenSUSE and therefore it too will still have a strong KDE backing as it used to have.

This is just a cheap trick to try to keep some customers, but it really is just a bunch of management jargon. Even ATI has claimed that they 'support' Linux for over 5 years now.

Oh the hell with ATI

...

-- // Janne

-- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

Allen

00:15

New subject: [SLE] Gnome disappointment

On Sat, Nov 05, 2005 at 09:40:21AM +0200, Janne Karhunen wrote:

...

On Saturday 05 November 2005 09:23, Bryan Tyson wrote:

...
...
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1882118,00.asp

This article contains a very disappointing piece of news:

"Novell is making one large strategic change. The GNOME interface is going to become the default interface on both the SLES (SuSE Linux Enterprise Server) and Novell Linux Desktop line. KDE libraries will be supplied on both, but the bulk of Novell's interface moving forward will be on GNOME."

Incredible. They are stupid enough to screw their own customers. This will probably have a drastic influence on their current popularity.

Yea I mean wow those mean mean guys, now you have to click on KDE before hitting enter after typing your password. And then YOU HAVE TO CLICK ON SET AS DEFAULT for GDM.... Wow, rough times..... *Sigh*.

...

-- // Janne

-- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

Roger Oberholtzer

07:52

New subject: [SLE] Gnome disappointment

On Sun, 2005-11-06 at 19:20 -0500, Allen wrote:

...

On Sat, Nov 05, 2005 at 09:40:21AM +0200, Janne Karhunen wrote:

...
On Saturday 05 November 2005 09:23, Bryan Tyson wrote:

...
...
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1882118,00.asp

This article contains a very disappointing piece of news:

"Novell is making one large strategic change. The GNOME interface is going to become the default interface on both the SLES (SuSE Linux Enterprise Server) and Novell Linux Desktop line. KDE libraries will be supplied on both, but the bulk of Novell's interface moving forward will be on GNOME."

Incredible. They are stupid enough to screw their own customers. This will probably have a drastic influence on their current popularity.

Yea I mean wow those mean mean guys, now you have to click on KDE before hitting enter after typing your password. And then YOU HAVE TO CLICK ON SET AS DEFAULT for GDM.... Wow, rough times..... *Sigh*.

I was going to stay out of this one, but... Do you really think SUSE will invest as much time in honorable desktop #2 as they will in desktop #1? I bet things for KDE will lag. This has already started with beagle, which is much more integrated into gnome than kde. It is a simple matter of resources. If SUSE had equal resources for both gnome and kde, there would have been no need for any announcement. The announcement pretty much indicates one desktop will get the emphasis. Anyone who does software development knows what that means. -- Roger Oberholtzer OPQ Systems AB

Sid Boyce

14:09

New subject: [SLE] Gnome disappointment

Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

...

On Sun, 2005-11-06 at 19:20 -0500, Allen wrote:

...
On Sat, Nov 05, 2005 at 09:40:21AM +0200, Janne Karhunen wrote:

...
On Saturday 05 November 2005 09:23, Bryan Tyson wrote:

...
...
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1882118,00.asp This article contains a very disappointing piece of news:

"Novell is making one large strategic change. The GNOME interface is going to become the default interface on both the SLES (SuSE Linux Enterprise Server) and Novell Linux Desktop line. KDE libraries will be supplied on both, but the bulk of Novell's interface moving forward will be on GNOME." Incredible. They are stupid enough to screw their own customers. This will probably have a drastic influence on their current popularity.

Yea I mean wow those mean mean guys, now you have to click on KDE before hitting enter after typing your password. And then YOU HAVE TO CLICK ON SET AS DEFAULT for GDM.... Wow, rough times..... *Sigh*.

I was going to stay out of this one, but...

Do you really think SUSE will invest as much time in honorable desktop #2 as they will in desktop #1? I bet things for KDE will lag. This has already started with beagle, which is much more integrated into gnome than kde. It is a simple matter of resources. If SUSE had equal resources for both gnome and kde, there would have been no need for any announcement. The announcement pretty much indicates one desktop will get the emphasis. Anyone who does software development knows what that means.

KDE-4.0 pre-release reviews indicate major improvements including beagle, so the show is not over yet. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, licensed Private Pilot Retired IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support Specialist Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks

Brant Fitzsimmons

5 Nov 5 Nov

08:34

New subject: [SLE] Gnome disappointment

Bryan Tyson wrote:

...

On Friday 04 November 2005 19:46, DC Parris wrote:

...
Absolutely false. There's an article by Stephen Vaughn-Nichols on E-Week, if you want to follow up: http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1882118,00.asp

This article contains a very disappointing piece of news:

"Novell is making one large strategic change. The GNOME interface is going to become the default interface on both the SLES (SuSE Linux Enterprise Server) and Novell Linux Desktop line. KDE libraries will be supplied on both, but the bulk of Novell's interface moving forward will be on GNOME."

Bryan

You have got to be kidding!!! I had finally settled (after months of research using Mandriva, Gentoo, Kubuntu, Debian, and SUSE) on SUSE as having the best desktop implementation around and they go and do this?!?! Gnome is *terrible* if you want to get anything done. I've found it to be slower than KDE and the task bars and menus...what a wreck. This is intensely frustrating...........I have to go take a walk. -- Brant Fitzsimmons brant@bfcomputerconsulting.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- "Strange times are these in which we live when the old and the young are taught falsehoods in the schools of learning. And the one man that dares to tell the truth is called at once a lunatic and a fool." -Plato

Janne Karhunen

10:06

New subject: [SLE] Gnome disappointment

On Saturday 05 November 2005 10:34, Brant Fitzsimmons wrote:

...

Gnome is *terrible* if you want to get anything done. I've found it to be slower than KDE and the task bars and menus...what a wreck.

If for once i could sit behind Gnome desktop and not instantly get several bugs on my face, I'd be willing to give it a go. So far it has not happened :/. That said, how is Gnome free software anymore? Compiling it from sources available from www.gnome.org produces something that is not really usable in any way (trying ok .. not for using). -- // Janne

Allen

7 Nov 7 Nov

00:39

New subject: [SLE] Gnome disappointment

On Sat, Nov 05, 2005 at 12:06:48PM +0200, Janne Karhunen wrote:

...

On Saturday 05 November 2005 10:34, Brant Fitzsimmons wrote:

...
Gnome is *terrible* if you want to get anything done. I've found it to be slower than KDE and the task bars and menus...what a wreck.

If for once i could sit behind Gnome desktop and not instantly get several bugs on my face, I'd be willing to give it a go. So far it has not happened :/. That said, how is Gnome free software anymore? Compiling it from sources available from www.gnome.org produces something that is not really usable in any way (trying ok .. not for using).

Wait you're telling me that when you install an OS, you boot up Gnome and it screws up instantly?..... OK, every peice of software, has issues to be worked out, but so far after 2 years on Linux, I've NEVER seen something crash as I logged in. Hell even the depths of hell itself (Fedora) don't do this. Maybe you should check whatyou have installed

...

-- // Janne

-- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

Fred A. Miller

5 Nov 5 Nov

21:40

New subject: [SLE] how true

On Friday 04 November 2005 7:25 pm, boricua wrote:

...

these rumors of no more suse desktop?

A TOTAL lie!!! Fred -- Paid purchaser of ALL SuSE Linux releases since 6.x

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Allen
Andre Truter
Andreas Jaeger
Ben Rosenberg
boricua
Brant Fitzsimmons
Bryan Tyson
David Robertson
DC Parris
Fred A. Miller
James Knott
Janne Karhunen
Jerry Feldman
Jonathan Brooks
Ken Schneider
Kevanf1
Marc Collin
mike
Mike McMullin
Randall R Schulz
Roger Oberholtzer
Sid Boyce
Silviu Marin-Caea
Steven T. Hatton

how true

boricua

DC Parris

Bryan Tyson

Ben Rosenberg

Jonathan Brooks

Andre Truter

James Knott

Kevanf1

Jerry Feldman

Janne Karhunen

Andre Truter

Andre Truter

Janne Karhunen

Andre Truter

Janne Karhunen

Andre Truter

Silviu Marin-Caea

Marc Collin

Ken Schneider

Allen

Silviu Marin-Caea

Allen

Ben Rosenberg

boricua

Allen

Steven T. Hatton

mike

David Robertson

Allen

Allen

Brant Fitzsimmons

Janne Karhunen

Allen

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