Re: [opensuse] New partition killed MBR?
At 11:14 AM 1/6/2009 -0700, Teruel de Campo MD wrote:
1. what did you use as boot manager grub?
Yep - default install.
2. how did you create new partitions? what program did you use?
11.1 partition manager.
3. just boot from a live cd
# fdisk -l
and post it.
Disk /dev/sda: 250.0 GB, 250059350016 bytes 255 heads, 63 sectors/track, 30401 cylinders Units = cylinders of 16065 * 512 = 8225280 bytes Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System /dev/sda1 * 2 3917 31455270 f W95 Ext'd (LBA) /dev/sda2 3918 11749 62910540 83 Linux /dev/sda3 11750 15012 26210047+ 83 Linux /dev/sda5 2 392 3140676 82 Linux swap / Solaris /dev/sda6 393 3655 26210016 83 Linux /dev/sda7 3656 3917 2104483+ 83 Linux Lee -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 1:39 PM, L. V. Lammert
At 11:14 AM 1/6/2009 -0700, Teruel de Campo MD wrote:
1. what did you use as boot manager grub?
Yep - default install.
2. how did you create new partitions? what program did you use?
11.1 partition manager.
3. just boot from a live cd
# fdisk -l
and post it.
Disk /dev/sda: 250.0 GB, 250059350016 bytes 255 heads, 63 sectors/track, 30401 cylinders Units = cylinders of 16065 * 512 = 8225280 bytes
Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System /dev/sda1 * 2 3917 31455270 f W95 Ext'd (LBA) /dev/sda2 3918 11749 62910540 83 Linux /dev/sda3 11750 15012 26210047+ 83 Linux /dev/sda5 2 392 3140676 82 Linux swap / Solaris /dev/sda6 393 3655 26210016 83 Linux /dev/sda7 3656 3917 2104483+ 83 Linux
Lee
As a guess, there may be a bug when you have grub stage one in the MBR and grub stage 2 on /dev/sda6 (per the private email). I have never tried having grub stage 2 on anything but a primary partition and I doubt many other people do either, so it does not get tested that way very often. Greg -- Greg Freemyer Litigation Triage Solutions Specialist http://www.linkedin.com/in/gregfreemyer First 99 Days Litigation White Paper - http://www.norcrossgroup.com/forms/whitepapers/99%20Days%20whitepaper.pdf The Norcross Group The Intersection of Evidence & Technology http://www.norcrossgroup.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday, 2009-01-06 at 12:39 -0600, L. V. Lammert wrote:
# fdisk -l
and post it.
Disk /dev/sda: 250.0 GB, 250059350016 bytes 255 heads, 63 sectors/track, 30401 cylinders Units = cylinders of 16065 * 512 = 8225280 bytes
Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System /dev/sda1 * 2 3917 31455270 f W95 Ext'd (LBA)
Woahh! :-O That is strange indeed. An extended (container) partition as bootable. Right now, I wouldn't know how to handle that. I simply do not know.
/dev/sda2 3918 11749 62910540 83 Linux /dev/sda3 11750 15012 26210047+ 83 Linux /dev/sda5 2 392 3140676 82 Linux swap / Solaris /dev/sda6 393 3655 26210016 83 Linux /dev/sda7 3656 3917 2104483+ 83 Linux
Notice that you have about half of the disk unused (15013..30401), and due to the strange positioning of sda2 and sda3, it has to go to sda4, all of it. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkljuCMACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UtTACcCqLeOBIHihjf7WRwXvTf3JJg WRgAn0pLOUg3sNlPuhh11imAUZgWwGG4 =K6Gx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
At 08:59 PM 1/6/2009 +0100, you wrote:
On Tuesday, 2009-01-06 at 12:39 -0600, L. V. Lammert wrote: Disk /dev/sda: 250.0 GB, 250059350016 bytes
255 heads, 63 sectors/track, 30401 cylinders Units = cylinders of 16065 * 512 = 8225280 bytes
Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System /dev/sda1 * 2 3917 31455270 f W95 Ext'd (LBA)
Woahh! :-O
That is strange indeed. An extended (container) partition as bootable. Right now, I wouldn't know how to handle that. I simply do not know.
The REALLY STRANGE part is that the installation went just fine! I have been trying to get the mouse working for a couple of weeks, .. rebooting MANY times with no problem at all.
/dev/sda2 3918 11749 62910540 83 Linux /dev/sda3 11750 15012 26210047+ 83 Linux /dev/sda5 2 392 3140676 82 Linux swap / Solaris /dev/sda6 393 3655 26210016 83 Linux /dev/sda7 3656 3917 2104483+ 83 Linux
Notice that you have about half of the disk unused (15013..30401), and due to the strange positioning of sda2 and sda3, it has to go to sda4, all of it.
Yep, .. eventually that will be a separate partitions for VMs. Now, if 'Repair System' would only work (it's 15 minutes & counting since I had to reboot). TFTR! Lee -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
There might be a bug: when I tried an install, it also activated my extended (container) partition. Using the rescue system to (re)activate the boot partition cured the problem. I did not try to reproduce it though Thierry On Tuesday 06 January 2009, L. V. Lammert wrote:
At 08:59 PM 1/6/2009 +0100, you wrote:
On Tuesday, 2009-01-06 at 12:39 -0600, L. V. Lammert wrote: Disk /dev/sda: 250.0 GB, 250059350016 bytes
255 heads, 63 sectors/track, 30401 cylinders Units = cylinders of 16065 * 512 = 8225280 bytes
Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System /dev/sda1 * 2 3917 31455270 f W95 Ext'd (LBA)
Woahh! :-O
That is strange indeed. An extended (container) partition as bootable. Right now, I wouldn't know how to handle that. I simply do not know.
The REALLY STRANGE part is that the installation went just fine! I have been trying to get the mouse working for a couple of weeks, .. rebooting MANY times with no problem at all.
/dev/sda2 3918 11749 62910540 83 Linux /dev/sda3 11750 15012 26210047+ 83 Linux /dev/sda5 2 392 3140676 82 Linux swap / Solaris /dev/sda6 393 3655 26210016 83 Linux /dev/sda7 3656 3917 2104483+ 83 Linux
Notice that you have about half of the disk unused (15013..30401), and due to the strange positioning of sda2 and sda3, it has to go to sda4, all of it.
Yep, .. eventually that will be a separate partitions for VMs.
Now, if 'Repair System' would only work (it's 15 minutes & counting since I had to reboot).
TFTR!
Lee
-- “Microsoft isn't evil, they just make really crappy operating systems.” Linus Torvald -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 2009-01-06 at 14:21 -0600, L. V. Lammert wrote:
At 08:59 PM 1/6/2009 +0100, you wrote:
On Tuesday, 2009-01-06 at 12:39 -0600, L. V. Lammert wrote: Disk /dev/sda: 250.0 GB, 250059350016 bytes
255 heads, 63 sectors/track, 30401 cylinders Units = cylinders of 16065 * 512 = 8225280 bytes
Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System /dev/sda1 * 2 3917 31455270 f W95 Ext'd (LBA)
Woahh! :-O
That is strange indeed. An extended (container) partition as bootable. Right now, I wouldn't know how to handle that. I simply do not know.
The REALLY STRANGE part is that the installation went just fine! I have been trying to get the mouse working for a couple of weeks, .. rebooting MANY times with no problem at all.
/dev/sda2 3918 11749 62910540 83 Linux /dev/sda3 11750 15012 26210047+ 83 Linux /dev/sda5 2 392 3140676 82 Linux swap / Solaris /dev/sda6 393 3655 26210016 83 Linux /dev/sda7 3656 3917 2104483+ 83 Linux
Notice that you have about half of the disk unused (15013..30401), and due to the strange positioning of sda2 and sda3, it has to go to sda4, all of it.
Yep, .. eventually that will be a separate partitions for VMs.
Now, if 'Repair System' would only work (it's 15 minutes & counting since I had to reboot).
TFTR!
Lee Lee,
I wonder where all those changes occur. Partition Magic in my opinion is a no no. It is a windows program. I used it quite a lot because started as an OS/2 program then I start to get corruption of the partition etc. I used it one time in linux and the same thing. I wonder if some of those changes were introduced by PM. Do not spend any more time and reinstall. If you want some suggestion just write what you plan to do and we can tell you how to do it (for sure you will get as many ways to do it as replies you get:-)) Basically for linux I have /boot ext2 / ext3 /home ext3 If you plan to run other OS you have 3 choices: 1. multiboot 2. use VM under linux host. This is what I use under VMware. 3. If you only need windows applications running, Crossover can be the solution. Crossover does not run all windows applications. It runs MS Office very very well. These choices are important because it will allow you to plan your partitions. LVM can be a good choice also. It all depends of what you want to do. -=terry=- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 6 Jan 2009, Teruel de Campo MD wrote:
On Tue, 2009-01-06 at 14:21 -0600, L. V. Lammert wrote:
At 08:59 PM 1/6/2009 +0100, you wrote: Lee,
I wonder where all those changes occur. Partition Magic in my opinion is a no no.
Terry, Thanks again for your replies, .. can't say enough about the support you chaps provide! Don't know where 'Partition Magic' came from, .. I have never used it on any machine here. Perhaps you thought that was my refernce to 11.1 'Partition Manager'? Rememer that this problem occurred AFTER the original install! 11.1 was quite happy with the original configuration, .. it only blew up when I tried to format sda2 & sda3 for ext3.
Do not spend any more time and reinstall. If you want some suggestion just write what you plan to do and we can tell you how to do it (for sure you will get as many ways to do it as replies you get:-))
I don't have a problem with that - this machine is going to live for quite some time as a development box so getting the initial install right is important.
Basically for linux I have
/boot ext2 / ext3 /home ext3
Hate to waste three primary partitions on SuSE. As the most 'sophisticated' OS, it *should* be happy living in an extended partition, I would think?
If you plan to run other OS you have 3 choices: 1. multiboot
That's why I would prefer to save the primary parttions for other OSs - at least two of them, one for VMs & one spare.
2. use VM under linux host. This is what I use under VMware.
The plan is to use either VMWare or VirtualBox, but that's also my intent for one of the primary partitions - VM storage.
3. If you only need windows applications running, Crossover can be the solution. Crossover does not run all windows applications. It runs MS Office very very well.
Don't want Windoze anywhere near the machine except perhaps as a VM. VirtualBox is really cool with 'treansparant' mode - both taskbars on a single screen.
These choices are important because it will allow you to plan your partitions. LVM can be a good choice also. It all depends of what you want to do.
Don't know that LVM would add any flexibility, .. ?? Storage space is not a problem - this 250GB disk is already three times bigger than the one it replaces. Any thoughts on a working layout that will preserve two primary partitions would be appreciated. Lee -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 2009/01/07 08:52 (GMT-0600) L. V. Lammert composed:
Hate to waste three primary partitions on SuSE. As the most 'sophisticated' OS, it *should* be happy living in an extended partition, I would think?
While "living", there is no distinction between logical and primary partitions, so "life" is possible anywhere. The distinction among logicals and primaries on a legacy BIOS wintel PC is all about booting, legacy operating systems, and the total number of partitions possible on a disk. I virtually always create at least 4 primary partitions, the last being the extended, with the extended always being last among the 4 MBR partition table entries. That keeps the logical partition progression equal to the physical partition progression. Whenever I have 4 primaries and any legacy OS on the disk, the legacy OS(s) "C:" goes on 1, or 1 and 2, and #3 is used for a Linux /boot. That means SUSE is always on one or more logicals here. If I don't have any legacy OS on the system, then usually /boot is on #1. And, I never ever put Grub on the MBR. I have more than 30 working puters, most of which have more than one Linux on them, and SUSE more than any other. -- "Train a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not turn from it." Proverbs 22:6 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
At 11:02 AM 1/7/2009 -0500, Felix Miata wrote:
While "living", there is no distinction between logical and primary partitions, so "life" is possible anywhere.
Of course, .. but some OSs are not as tolerant of logical partitions.
I virtually always create at least 4 primary partitions, the last being the extended, with the extended always being last among the 4 MBR partition table entries. That keeps the logical partition progression equal to the physical partition progression.
Please expand - someone else mentioned keeping the logical partition at the end of the disk. Is there any concrete reason for this? I can't imaging an OS caring that the cylinders/sectors of sda3 are physically located after sda7?
If I don't have any legacy OS on the system, then usually /boot is on #1.
There are no legacy OSs involved, .. SuSE will actually be the primary.
And, I never ever put Grub on the MBR. I have more than 30 working puters, most of which have more than one Linux on them, and SUSE more than any other.
Now THAT needs explaining, please! I am pretty sure that this is the problem is what hosed the system boot - formatting sda2 & sda3 caused the partition table to be re-written, .. which killed the first stage boot loader in sda1. The fact that /boot was in sda6 seems to be a bug in Grub, .. however it seems to be in Grub itself, not SuSE as running grub-install from System Rescue caused the same issue - it cannot write a config with /boot in a logical partition. The problem I have with that problem NOW is how did the install get done in the first place if Grub cannot use /boot in a logical partition?? TFTR! Lee -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 2009/01/07 10:23 (GMT-0600) L. V. Lammert composed:
At 11:02 AM 1/7/2009 -0500, Felix Miata wrote:
While "living", there is no distinction between logical and primary partitions, so "life" is possible anywhere.
Of course, .. but some OSs are not as tolerant of logical partitions.
Which might those be? I nearly always install Windoz to logical D:. The only problems that arise from that has nothing to do with the OS, but only from brain dead installation programs that assume windoz lives on C:. That's actually a welcome behavior, because many of those brain dead apps are trojans and viruses.
I virtually always create at least 4 primary partitions, the last being the extended, with the extended always being last among the 4 MBR partition table entries. That keeps the logical partition progression equal to the physical partition progression.
Please expand - someone else mentioned keeping the logical partition at the end of the disk. Is there any concrete reason for this? I can't imaging an OS caring that the cylinders/sectors of sda3 are physically located after sda7?
One reason is it is easier on humans using partitioning utilities when logicals and primaries are not mixed up with each other, such as can easily happen if less than a whole disk is partitioned initially, and later an additional primary is added that also does not use the whole remaining freespace. That can leave a big unused and unusable freespace at the end of the disk that can only be made usable by deleting partitions. Another stems from repartitioning after more than one OS has been installed, which can cause existing devices to acquire new names if physical order didn't match logical order. Another reason, indirectly, is a want to segregate programs and data according to relative disk speed. Usually the fastest part is up front, while the slowest at the end. I want my swap and OS on the fast end, the front, or near thereto. Conversely, I wouldn't want the fastest part of the disk mostly wasted on empty space in a /home or media file storage location with mostly infrequently used files.
And, I never ever put Grub on the MBR. I have more than 30 working puters, most of which have more than one Linux on them, and SUSE more than any other.
Now THAT needs explaining, please! I am pretty sure that this is the
http://en.opensuse.org/Bugs/grub#How_does_a_PC_boot_.2F_How_can_I_set_up_a_w... http://fm.no-ip.com/install-doz-after.html The system I'm currently preparing to replace my existing file & web server: http://fm.no-ip.com/tmp/dfsee/fi965L02.txt My current file & web server: http://fm.no-ip.com/tmp/dfsee/a-865L01.txt My previous file & web server: http://fm.no-ip.com/tmp/dfsee/ax5t3-ok.txt A new backup server & rsync host: http://fm.no-ip.com/tmp/dfsee/big31L02.txt The system from which I'm writing this: http://fm.no-ip.com/tmp/dfsee/e965.txt 3 of my systems used mainly for testing software: http://fm.no-ip.com/tmp/dfsee/gx260.txt http://fm.no-ip.com/tmp/dfsee/kt880L02.txt http://fm.no-ip.com/tmp/dfsee/m7ncdL0c.txt The system connected to my TV: http://fm.no-ip.com/tmp/dfsee/gx270L01.txt
problem is what hosed the system boot - formatting sda2 & sda3 caused the partition table to be re-written, .. which killed the first stage boot
My partition tables don't get written during installation. All partitions I create prior to beginning any OS installer. The OS installation partitioner is used only to designate what goes where, and format selected partitions.
loader in sda1. The fact that /boot was in sda6 seems to be a bug in Grub, .. however it seems to be in Grub itself, not SuSE as running grub-install from System Rescue caused the same issue - it cannot write a config with /boot in a logical partition.
The problem I have with that problem NOW is how did the install get done in the first place if Grub cannot use /boot in a logical partition??
Sometimes an installer will screw up Grub installation. I've had it happen 3 times in a row regarding RAID systems, but it causes me no significant problem, because I've previously installed Grub and menu.lst and know it works. I never put /boot on anything but a primary, while I nearly always have a primary on each HD that can function as a /boot. -- "Train a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not turn from it." Proverbs 22:6 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday, 2009-01-07 at 15:02 -0500, Felix Miata wrote: ...
Another reason, indirectly, is a want to segregate programs and data according to relative disk speed. Usually the fastest part is up front, while the slowest at the end.
I once measured speed, and found the fastest was at 1/3 of the space. I made something like perhaps 30 partitions of the same size, same format, and then I used hdparm -tT on all of them. After the test, I made my real partitioning decissions :-)
I never put /boot on anything but a primary, while I nearly always have a primary on each HD that can function as a /boot.
My factory boot is on /hda8. The trick is that I have another grub in MBR (the main one) which I use to load the second grub. Ok, now I would not install grub to MBR, but at the time, it was the default practice. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkllD3YACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VLTACfeeAQlieOiM/rzmEZneF05LIO faYAnjXgVyZJSLNooJcL5IZXwQmIaWO6 =H3w1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On Tuesday, 2009-01-06 at 12:39 -0600, L. V. Lammert wrote:
# fdisk -l
and post it.
Disk /dev/sda: 250.0 GB, 250059350016 bytes 255 heads, 63 sectors/track, 30401 cylinders Units = cylinders of 16065 * 512 = 8225280 bytes
Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System /dev/sda1 * 2 3917 31455270 f W95 Ext'd (LBA)
Woahh! :-O
That is strange indeed. An extended (container) partition as bootable. Right now, I wouldn't know how to handle that. I simply do not know.
Thanks not strange, if you install grub to that extended partiotion. more I write to http://forums.opensuse.org/install-boot-login/404240-boot-loader-installatio... JR -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
RESOLVED! It does appear that Grub *itself* has a problem loading into extended partitions, .. as testing with multipel kernels (System Rescue, Nexradix, and SuSE 11.1 Repair & Rescue) found the same problem - Grub itself refuses to accept a logical partition as 'Root'! To recap:
11.1 initially installed [successfully] as follows:
sda1 Extended sda5 Swap sda6 Root sda7 Home Which ran fine! Unfortunately, formatting sda2 caused Grub to rewrite the boot loader, AND IT HOSED THE SYSTEM (i.e no bootable partitions found)!!
Given that Grub has a problem with logical partitions, I shuffled them as follows, creating a 512MB /boot partition for Grub:
sda1 Primary (/boot) sda2 Extended sda5 Swap sda6 Root sda7 Home Using sda4 temporarily as storage for BUs from Root & Home, .. restoring them to the proper partitions, .. then installing Grub to sda1 /boot restored the system to operation. The remaining question, however, is HOW THE 11.1 INSTALLER CREATED A WORKING GRUB CONFIGURATION when Grub itself cannot. Thanks for all the replies! Lee -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday, 2009-01-07 at 13:38 -0600, L. V. Lammert wrote:
RESOLVED!
It does appear that Grub *itself* has a problem loading into extended partitions, .. as testing with multipel kernels (System Rescue, Nexradix, and SuSE 11.1 Repair & Rescue) found the same problem - Grub itself refuses to accept a logical partition as 'Root'!
To recap:
11.1 initially installed [successfully] as follows:
sda1 Extended sda5 Swap sda6 Root sda7 Home
Er... I notice that you confuse logical and extended partitions. Your sda1 is an extended partition, ie, a primary partition that holds a linked list of as many logical partitions as needed. Numbers 1..4 are primary, numbers 5 onward are logical. And, in your case, your primary 1 is also extended, or if your prefer, a primary of type "extended". That said... Grub does not complain about installing on logical (not extended) partitions. It may... a bit. I have one installed in hda8, and it works. What it should complain strongly is about marking as bootable a logical partition - not because of grub, but because of the bios and/or standard mbr code not being able to boot it. And it will also complain (or should) about installing into an extended partition (not a logical), as you had, because an extended partition has no space of its own where you can save anything at all.
Which ran fine! Unfortunately, formatting sda2 caused Grub to rewrite the boot loader, AND IT HOSED THE SYSTEM (i.e no bootable partitions found)!!
Being that it is not possible to have grub in your original sda1, it was somewhere else, which you probably formatted over.
Given that Grub has a problem with logical partitions, I shuffled them as follows, creating a 512MB /boot partition for Grub:
sda1 Primary (/boot) sda2 Extended sda5 Swap sda6 Root sda7 Home
Looks much better.
Using sda4 temporarily as storage for BUs from Root & Home, .. restoring them to the proper partitions, .. then installing Grub to sda1 /boot restored the system to operation.
The remaining question, however, is HOW THE 11.1 INSTALLER CREATED A WORKING GRUB CONFIGURATION when Grub itself cannot.
Difficult to say without having data about your original installation. I have my guesses, of course. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkllDZ0ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UDrwCghWHZnZ2zEsMakqN0rXJEFRrU GlkAn17yqFzrAk8aHs/OyOMQZd82NLpG =rQU8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
participants (7)
-
Carlos E. R. -
Felix Miata -
Greg Freemyer -
Josef Reidinger -
L. V. Lammert -
Teruel de Campo MD -
Thierry de Coulon