It seems that M$ Corp has infected the German Law Making system time to move SuSE to somewhere that M$ Corp can't get at ..

Your comment is completely offtopic, unrelated and non-constructive. Doing this you are only adding noise to the topic, and potentially hijacking the thread and instead of people discussing a potential interesting thread they will do random babling about microsoft. Dont to this, you are disrupting the thread and the list Marcio --- Druid -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Doug McGarrett wrote:

All of you in Germany should write to the Bundesrat and explain the technical problems this law would cause, as a number have submitted to this list already.

There were already several hearings from experts aswell at the Bundestag (who passed this law) and the Bundesrat and they stated that this law should be discarded, but the Bundestag decided the other way. There is already a lot of protest from several sides including the Chaos Computer Club and the ISP's lobby.

Guten Glueck! --doug

Thank you! Chris - -- http://rauchs-home.de - home of yet another suse repository ;) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFGWzMRayhvFxrDZlkRArjzAJ4lkA0i5b5qsnmSmXoPHFu/Wh4MoACcDfKf xmE6FxC6kavnreL1yn651lg= =AROe -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 28 May 2007 13:52, Michael S. Dunsavage wrote:

I'm confused. Can someone sum this up for me? I'm from USA.

One means of assessing a system's security against break-in attempts that originate outside the machine and use the Internet (or, more precisely, an IP-based protocol or, simply, IP packets as such) as the avenue of attack is to "scan" the IP ports of a host's IP address(es). This means to attempt to establish connections or elicit some kind of response by sending test packets to the subject system. As it turns out, this activity is very similar to those employed in break-in attempts themselves, for the obvious reason. Judging from what the OP wrote, posessing software which can perform such scans has been made illegal in Germany. If that's an accurate characterization, then this law is going to be a problem, both for diligent, security-conscious system administrators and for anyone trying to enforce it, since even without purpose-built port-scanning software, one can still pretty easily cobble together some scripts to perform the same essential tests. Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 29 May 2007 05:20, Thomas Hertweck wrote:

Michael S. Dunsavage wrote:

...

I'm confused. Can someone sum this up for me? I'm from USA.

Last Thursday, the German parliament passed a concept that had been proposed by the German government parties. The concept concerns the German criminal code and is meant to tighten laws against cybercrime.

According to the new §202c, anybody who prepares a crime by building, supplying, distributing or making available passwords or security codes for data access or typical computer programs whose purpose is to prepare or commit such a crime, can be fined or sent to jail for up to one year. There were other changes concerning §202, but the one mentioned above is the one most criticized.

Many people say that it's not possible to distinguish between programs that might be used to prepare a crime and programs that serve to detect vulnerabilities and secure computer systems (I personally agree with that statement). Therefore, §202c could criminalize many tools that are frequently used these days, for instance port scanners etc. There is no clear definition given in §202c and at the end of the day a German court might have to decide in individual cases. The intention of §202c, however, seems to be to criminalize only software that might cause a "damage".

In order to become a law, the concept has to pass the German Bundesrat (upper house of the German parliament) as well. This could happen in July. Then the new concept would become a law shortly thereafter.

It could affect openSUSE (in Germany) since the distribution of programs that fall into above mentioned category (yet to be clearly defined) is then forbidden.

A knife can be used to kill someone. So, does that mean that we are not allowed to have a knife? This is so stupid. I can't believe it. -- Fajar Priyanto | Reg'd Linux User #327841 | Linux tutorial http://linux2.arinet.org 6:36am up 0:14, 2.6.18.2-34-default GNU/Linux Let's use OpenOffice. http://www.openoffice.org

On Monday 28 May 2007 18:46, Pueblo Native wrote:

Fajar Priyanto wrote:

...

On Tuesday 29 May 2007 05:20, Thomas Hertweck wrote:

...

Michael S. Dunsavage wrote:

...

I'm confused. Can someone sum this up for me? I'm from USA.

Last Thursday, the German parliament passed a concept that had been proposed by the German government parties. The concept concerns the German criminal code and is meant to tighten laws against cybercrime.

According to the new §202c, anybody who prepares a crime by building, supplying, distributing or making available passwords or security codes for data access or typical computer programs whose purpose is to prepare or commit such a crime, can be fined or sent to jail for up to one year. There were other changes concerning §202, but the one mentioned above is the one most criticized.

Many people say that it's not possible to distinguish between programs that might be used to prepare a crime and programs that serve to detect vulnerabilities and secure computer systems (I personally agree with that statement). Therefore, §202c could criminalize many tools that are frequently used these days, for instance port scanners etc. There is no clear definition given in §202c and at the end of the day a German court might have to decide in individual cases. The intention of §202c, however, seems to be to criminalize only software that might cause a "damage".

In order to become a law, the concept has to pass the German Bundesrat (upper house of the German parliament) as well. This could happen in July. Then the new concept would become a law shortly thereafter.

It could affect openSUSE (in Germany) since the distribution of programs that fall into above mentioned category (yet to be clearly defined) is then forbidden.

A knife can be used to kill someone. So, does that mean that we are not allowed to have a knife? This is so stupid. I can't believe it.

This is what happens when you let the politicians who have been reading "Computer security for dummies" try to pass legislation.

You over estimate politicians ability. Since breaking in is illegal then obviously tools used to break in must be illegal too. Given that then I have a garage that has such tools as a hammer, saw, crow bar, pliers et it it which are obviously burglary tools even though I am a construction engineer as was my father. So software is now up to the same level as the the physical world. Possession of tools to do work is a\makes you a criminal. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Fajar Priyanto wrote:

On Tuesday 29 May 2007 07:30, SOTL wrote:

...

You over estimate politicians ability.

Since breaking in is illegal then obviously tools used to break in must be illegal too.

Given that then I have a garage that has such tools as a hammer, saw, crow bar, pliers et it it which are obviously burglary tools even though I am a construction engineer as was my father.

So software is now up to the same level as the the physical world. Possession of tools to do work is a\makes you a criminal.

Absolutely agree. It's the action that needs to be account of, not the tools. As an even more extreme example, people can trick someone into giving money just by talking. So, talking is illegal. Politicians also talk. They must therefore be illegal. ;-)

-- Use OpenOffice.org <http://www.openoffice.org> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Darryl Gregorash wrote:

On 2007-05-29 14:56, James Knott wrote:

...

<snip> Politicians also talk. They must therefore be illegal. ;-)

If not, they should be ;-)

Conventional wisdom says that there are 3 kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics. To that should be added the worst kind of lie of all: a political promise.

And there are three deadly issues on this list: off-topic, off-topic and off-topic. Please stick to the topic. Thanks ;) cheers - -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ <pascal.bleser@skynet.be> <guru@unixtech.be> _\_v The more things change, the more they stay insane. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGXlofr3NMWliFcXcRAlwPAJ4vtReiHovv+hZ79m/B8SCYDx9ffACfVv0d 09AribYwE5xn0wVnOvJP5jA= =MEVm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, 2007-05-29 at 06:36 +0700, Fajar Priyanto wrote:

A knife can be used to kill someone. So, does that mean that we are not allowed to have a knife? This is so stupid. I can't believe it.

Stupid enough to have come from the California State legislature. I am surprised Germany came up with this first. I wonder if this is to avoid liability for BG and Windows which we all know has more holes as yet undiscovered. -- Carl Spitzer <lynux@bluebottle.com> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Finally - A spam blocker that actually works. http://www.bluebottle.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

<snip> and I really don't know what the Bundesrat is--it sounds like some kind of a council, from the name. Federal German equivalent of the Senate (House of Lords for those from

On 2007-05-28 13:44, Doug McGarrett wrote: the UK :-) ). -- Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo. -- HG Wells -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Writing law is like writing software -- very similar, really. The really good stuff is few and far between and the bad stuff is too plentiful, smells like bovine excretions, reads like Redmond code and upon execution, too often locks up the system. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 28 May 2007 16:57, Randall R Schulz wrote:

Could you provide some pointers to on-line information regarding this law? [ . . . ]

2. Creating, procuring for themselves or others, selling, distributing, handing over or in any other manner making available to others computer programs the purpose of which is the commission of such a criminal offense will be punished with a prison term of up to one year or with a fine. As the wording of the draft makes clear the sole criterion here is the objective risks inherent in the software -- and not as one might expect the purpose for which it is meant to be used. Thus it says verbatim: In particular the potentially widespread distribution of hacker tools made possible by the Internet, their easy availability, as well as their simple use, constitute a considerable danger, which can only be combated effectively by making the distribution as such of such inherently dangerous tools a crime. Thus it is suggested in Section 1 Subheading 2 that the committing of an act or acts preparatory to the commission of a criminal offense as defined in 202a or 202b StGB by creating, procuring, selling, distributing, handing over or in any other manner making available to others computer programs the purpose of which is the commission of such a criminal offense be penalized. The draft has been vehemently criticized by German industry associations such as the Association for Information Technology, Telecommunications and New Media (Bitkom) (PDF file) and eco (PDF file) as well as the Chaos Computer Club (CCC). -- Kind regards, M Harris <>< -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 29 May 2007 00:27, M Harris wrote:

        2. Creating, procuring for themselves or others, selling, distributing, handing over or in any other manner making available to others    computer programs the purpose of which is the commission of such a    criminal offense will be punished with a prison term of up to one    year or with a fine.

http://www.heise.de/english/newsticker/news/79230 Following the logic of 202c to its ultimate conclusion results in making the entire distribution of openSUSE (or any other distro) illegal--- because a computer system (kernel, ip stack, and utilities) all constitute the standard tools through which a cyber crime is committed. The ludicrous hyper interpretation of this section of the German penal code (StGB) must necessarily lead to the conclusion that the distribution of entire operating systems and utilities ( not just port scanners like nmap ) are dangerous because they can be used in the commission of a cyber crime. This is just about as silly as the judge who shocked the Woolwich Crown Court in the UK for not knowing what a "web-site" was. http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2007220614,00.html Clearly technology has presented legal western culture with a serious problem for aging ( judicial and legislative ) dogs who are apparently not able to learn new tricks. Obviously education is needed; however, another thing that the community can do is to "re-market" certain tools in a positive light... perhaps even repackaging tools like nmap... giving nmap a new name like health-map, and packaging it with network security tools to be used for the expressed purpose of protecting local infrastructures, etc. On the other hand, nmap has been in the community for so long that to outlaw its distribution is very analogous to outlawing the distribution of firearms. If we outlaw the distribution of firearms only criminals will have firearms. If we outlaw the distribution of security tools like nmap, only crackers will have nmap. (well, along with the millions of other folks like myself who already have it) <sigh> -- Kind regards, M Harris <>< -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 M Harris wrote:

On Tuesday 29 May 2007 00:27, M Harris wrote: Following the logic of 202c to its ultimate conclusion results in making the entire distribution of openSUSE (or any other distro) illegal--- because a computer system (kernel, ip stack, and utilities) all constitute the standard tools through which a cyber crime is committed. The ludicrous hyper interpretation of this section of the German penal code (StGB) must necessarily lead to the conclusion that the distribution of entire operating systems and utilities ( not just port scanners like nmap ) are dangerous because they can be used in the commission of a cyber crime.

If it could be interpreted this way the legislation probably could run foul of EU trade regulations among other things. As I understand it this a principle rather than legislation, and it would be the purpose of the Bunderstag (or another body) to turn the concept into workable legislation. In UK law there is the concept of attempt to supply for the purpose of an illegal act in which case it the intent to supply rather than the object itself that is illegal.

This is just about as silly as the judge who shocked the Woolwich Crown Court in the UK for not knowing what a "web-site" was.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2007220614,00.html

I suspect (as you do) that this comment was taken out of context, and really shocked no-one over here. The statement 'I read it in the Sun so it must be true' is a bit of a standing joke in the UK. People usually buy it for only two things (Ok for UK list members more accurately 3 things, two on page 3 and the racing and sports coverage). People rarely buy it to read the news. This report made barely a ripple in the UK Broadsheets.

Clearly technology has presented legal western culture with a serious problem for aging ( judicial and legislative ) dogs who are apparently not able to learn new tricks.

Drafting law is in someways like writing code, it needs precise definition. Attempts to make it comprehensible can lead to a semantic mess. I am not too sure what the relationship between the German Judiciary and Legislature is, but in the long term european judiciaries tend to sort out the messes the politicians drop in their laps.

On the other hand, nmap has been in the community for so long that to outlaw its distribution is very analogous to outlawing the distribution of firearms. If we outlaw the distribution of firearms only criminals will have firearms.

In most of Europe possession of firearms is strictly regulated. In the UK it is illegal to own a hand gun (and owning replicas is under review). While there is gun crime, the collateral damage to bystanders is somewhat less than in the US. Though I understand it is not a good idea to take country walks in some parts of Italy and France during the hunting season :-) I think the analogy is not appropriate.

If we outlaw the distribution of security tools like nmap, only crackers will have nmap. (well, along with the millions of other folks like myself who already have it)

<sigh>

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Randall R Schulz wrote:

On Monday 28 May 2007 01:24, Thomas Meindl wrote:

...

Reading the news I came across the legal issue of a new law in Germany. It is now illegal to own, write or distribute preventive software which can test the security of a computer by using the internet. ...

Could you provide some pointers to on-line information regarding this law?

http://vip.itworldcanada.com/t?r=2&c=3731&l=3092&ctl=1749B:E5043EA907EB34AD753F09ACBC54EE3A&p=EE&sub=146611 -- Use OpenOffice.org <http://www.openoffice.org> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org