[opensuse] Sources, revisited
Ok Novell/SuSE, Let's get it together! I'll not rehash the discussion of the sources in the boxed edition of SuSE or the minor mention of said sources. That discussion has concluded with the hope of better and more visible indications that sources are available? I do want to mention though the incredible lack of mention it receives on the opensuse sites. I came to this conclusion while looking for the source file to the libgimpprint file. Which I might add, still have not found. The only thing I found on the opensuse site after much searching was one hotlink on one of the pages! It could be easily overlooked, since it was clumped in with so many other items. Does Novell not want us to know about the source files? Why the seemingly secrecy and general lack of info about the sources? Why are some source files missing? Aren't all the sources for all the files included on the DVD boxed set suppose to be available? I guess it's possible the file I'm searching for is grouped within another source file, I don't know, I haven't dug that deeply yet, but the fact remains, sources are difficult to find and even more difficult to learn they are available! A lot of changes with Novell's purchase, some have me worried. Lee Here are the sites I visited: http://en.opensuse.org/Welcome_to_openSUSE.org (how many places are sources mentioned here?) http://www.novell.com/products/suselinux/downloads/ (see any mention here?) http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/SL-10.1/inst-source/suse/src/ ftp://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/opensuse/distribution/SL-10.1/inst-source/suse/src/
Bla... It's getting boring. The sources are and were *always* linked from here: http://download.opensuse.org/ This is the very primary download site. And now you need the sources of libgimpprint, so you execute this in a terminal: rpm -qi libgimpprint Result: Name : libgimpprint Relocations: (not relocatable) Version : 4.2.7 Vendor: SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Nuernberg, Germany Release : 62 Build Date: Di 02 Mai 2006 09:53:19 CEST Install Date: Do 22 Jun 2006 19:10:56 CEST Build Host: zenworks.suse.de Group : Development/Libraries/C and C++ Source RPM: ghostscript-library-8.15.2rc1-20.src.rpm Size : 2538725 License: GPL, Other License(s), see package Signature : DSA/SHA1, Di 02 Mai 2006 10:04:28 CEST, Key ID a84edae89c800aca Packager : http://bugs.opensuse.org URL : http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~ghost/ Summary : Gimp-Print libraries Description : Libraries to print with The GIMP Authors: -------- Robert Krawitz <rlk@alum.mit.edu> Distribution: SUSE LINUX 10.1 (i586) And now you know that the source package of libgimpprint is ghostscript-library-8.15.2rc1-20.src.rpm, which you will find here: http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/SL-10.1/inst-source/suse/src/ghost... Please learn how to use rpm before accusing a company that contributed so much software under the GPL of a GPL violation.
Bla... It's getting boring.
The sources are and were *always* linked from here:
This is the very primary download site. ========= Yes it is, but how many places at that location do you see anything mentioned about sources being available, so they are easily found? Just because you know, doesn't mean everyone will Andreas. If a new user goes there, what are they suppose to do, flip page after page until they see one hotlink? I'm just saying there should be more mention of it and a link from the main page to both describe what
On Sunday 13 August 2006 16:43, Andreas Hanke wrote: sources are and links to them. Certainly not a GPL requirement, but would be rather convenient and go to show Novell/SuSE is interested in maintaining a good Linux distro.
And now you need the sources of libgimpprint, so you execute this in a terminal:
rpm -qi libgimpprint
Result:
Name : libgimpprint Relocations: (not relocatable) Version : 4.2.7 Vendor: SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Nuernberg, Germany Release : 62 Build Date: Di 02 Mai 2006 09:53:19 CEST Install Date: Do 22 Jun 2006 19:10:56 CEST Build Host: zenworks.suse.de Group : Development/Libraries/C and C++ Source RPM: ghostscript-library-8.15.2rc1-20.src.rpm Size : 2538725 License: GPL, Other License(s), see package Signature : DSA/SHA1, Di 02 Mai 2006 10:04:28 CEST, Key ID a84edae89c800aca Packager : http://bugs.opensuse.org URL : http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~ghost/ Summary : Gimp-Print libraries Description : Libraries to print with The GIMP
Authors: -------- Robert Krawitz <rlk@alum.mit.edu> Distribution: SUSE LINUX 10.1 (i586)
And now you know that the source package of libgimpprint is ghostscript-library-8.15.2rc1-20.src.rpm, which you will find here:
http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/SL-10.1/inst-source/suse/sr c/ghostscript-library-8.15.2rc1-20.src.rpm
Please learn how to use rpm before accusing a company that contributed so much software under the GPL of a GPL violation.
============= No need to get rude here. You guys know as well as I do that Novell's handling of many things have not been top notch. If we don't complain, nobody is going to know that things need to be corrected. Thanks for the help, but remember in my mail, which both you and Henne conveniently left out of your replies, I thought it might be included with another package, but I hadn't dug that deeply yet. The mail wasn't about libgimpprint sources as much as the sources themselves, thank you very much! Now back to our regularly scheduled programming. Lee
Hi, BandiPat schrieb:
Yes it is, but how many places at that location do you see anything mentioned about sources being available, so they are easily found?
Actually I don't know any place on opensuse.org that links to binaries and not to sources. The sources are hyperlinked at the same place as the binaries, so everyone who found the binaries is able to find the sources.
You guys know as well as I do that Novell's handling of many things have not been top notch. If we don't complain, nobody is going to know that things need to be corrected.
I don't have anything to complain regarding sources availability. Just a little hint: There is a very handy script called "yumdownloader" in the "yum-utils" package. It is able to download source RPMs with a single command: yumdownloader --source libgimpprint A minimal yum setup is needed and then you can easily download source RPMs without knowing the exact location. Andreas Hanke
Just a little hint: There is a very handy script called "yumdownloader" in the "yum-utils" package. It is able to download source RPMs with a single command:
yumdownloader --source libgimpprint
A minimal yum setup is needed and then you can easily download source RPMs without knowing the exact location.
Andreas Hanke ========== And thanks again for the YUM hint. Is this bit of info in the manual
On Sunday 13 August 2006 17:46, Andreas Hanke wrote: [...] that comes in the box or somewhere else conveniently located and easy to find? Not trying to be a wise guy, just asking? Also, neither of you guys answered another question. Are all the sources to all the binaries available on the box DVD, available on those sites? I assume they are, but have not done a comparison. regards, Lee
On Sunday 13 August 2006 23:38, BandiPat wrote:
Yes it is, but how many places at that location do you see anything mentioned about sources being available, so they are easily found? Just because you know, doesn't mean everyone will Andreas. If a new user goes there, what are they suppose to do, flip page after page until they see one hotlink? I'm just saying there should be more mention of it and a link from the main page to both describe what sources are and links to them. Certainly not a GPL requirement, but would be rather convenient and go to show Novell/SuSE is interested in maintaining a good Linux distro.
Usually a user that can't use rpm will not need the sources except for trolling against GPL violations. If the user needs the src.rpm file, he would need to know basic rpm usage. Duncan --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Hi, On Sunday, August 13, 2006 at 16:37:52, BandiPat wrote:
I do want to mention though the incredible lack of mention it receives on the opensuse sites. I came to this conclusion while looking for the source file to the libgimpprint file. Which I might add, still have not found. The only thing I found on the opensuse site after much searching was one hotlink on one of the pages! It could be easily overlooked, since it was clumped in with so many other items.
en.opensuse.org -> Download -> Download SUSE Linux 10.1 -> Sources or en.opensuse.org -> Download -> Download the latest development build -> Sources rpm -qi libgimpprint -> Source RPM: ghostscript-library-8.15.2rc1-20.src.rpm http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/SL-10.1/inst-source/suse/src/ghost...
Does Novell not want us to know about the source files? Why the seemingly secrecy and general lack of info about the sources? Why are some source files missing? Aren't all the sources for all the files included on the DVD boxed set suppose to be available?
So because you cant find the right source RPM the evil Novell is hiding it. Nice logic ;)
A lot of changes with Novell's purchase, some have me worried.
Heh i love that. Blame it on Novell. Those evil bastards hid the libgimpprint source. I bet Ron Hovsepian personally thought of that evil trick to let libgimpprint come out of ghostscript-library! Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, http://hennevogel.de "To die. In the rain. Alone." Ernest Hemingway
On Sunday 13 August 2006 16:57, Henne Vogelsang wrote: [..]
en.opensuse.org -> Download -> Download SUSE Linux 10.1 -> Sources
or
en.opensuse.org -> Download -> Download the latest development build -> Sources ========== And why do I need this Henne? I already know where they are! Remember my email at the bottom? Maybe you don't.
rpm -qi libgimpprint -> Source RPM: ghostscript-library-8.15.2rc1-20.src.rpm
http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/SL-10.1/inst-source/suse/sr c/ghostscript-library-8.15.2rc1-20.src.rpm
Does Novell not want us to know about the source files? Why the seemingly secrecy and general lack of info about the sources? Why are some source files missing? Aren't all the sources for all the files included on the DVD boxed set suppose to be available?
So because you cant find the right source RPM the evil Novell is hiding it. Nice logic ;) ========== You miss the whole point! Logically, there should be as much mention of source files as of anything else. Logically, according to the GPL, source files are equally if not more important than binaries. If any logic had been used, sources wouldn't be so difficult to find from the box or from the sites.
A lot of changes with Novell's purchase, some have me worried.
Heh i love that. Blame it on Novell. Those evil bastards hid the libgimpprint source. I bet Ron Hovsepian personally thought of that evil trick to let libgimpprint come out of ghostscript-library!
Henne ========== Loving it is not going to fix it. If you continue to wax over the little points, pretty soon a lot of big ones will show up as well. Will you still be loving it then or one of the users yelling the loudest? Novell needs to realize they are dealing with open source software now. Maybe they'll eventually get it right, maybe they won't, but one thing sure, they do need to fix some things.
regards, Lee
Hi, On Sunday, August 13, 2006 at 17:50:51, BandiPat wrote:
On Sunday 13 August 2006 16:57, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
Does Novell not want us to know about the source files? Why the seemingly secrecy and general lack of info about the sources?
So because you cant find the right source RPM the evil Novell is hiding it. Nice logic ;)
You miss the whole point! Logically, there should be as much mention of source files as of anything else.
Sources are as prominently linked as binary files. Where is the problem? They are present, they are not hidden and in fact they are handled as everything else.
A lot of changes with Novell's purchase, some have me worried.
Heh i love that. Blame it on Novell. Those evil bastards hid the libgimpprint source. I bet Ron Hovsepian personally thought of that evil trick to let libgimpprint come out of ghostscript-library!
Loving it is not going to fix it. If you continue to wax over the little points, pretty soon a lot of big ones will show up as well. Will you still be loving it then or one of the users yelling the loudest?
There is no problem so there is no need to yell. Thats the problem i have with your mail :) You yell without a problem and point your finger at Novell. I dont like that. Come back with something real to yell about and im with you. Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, http://hennevogel.de "To die. In the rain. Alone." Ernest Hemingway
2006/8/14, Henne Vogelsang <hvogel@hennevogel.de>:
Sources are as prominently linked as binary files. Where is the problem? They are present, they are not hidden and in fact they are handled as everything else.
Looking at http://en.opensuse.org/Released_Version#Downloads_SUSE_Linux_10.1, the link for sources could be two lines up or more prominent. Best Martin
Hi, On Mon, 14 Aug 2006, Martin Schröder wrote:
2006/8/14, Henne Vogelsang <hvogel@hennevogel.de>:
Sources are as prominently linked as binary files. Where is the problem? They are present, they are not hidden and in fact they are handled as everything else.
Looking at http://en.opensuse.org/Released_Version#Downloads_SUSE_Linux_10.1, the link for sources could be two lines up or more prominent.
It seems a new generation of terrorists gets born here. They use the GPL just like the others the Koran. Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)
Hi, On Mon, 14 Aug 2006, Martin Schröder wrote:
2006/8/14, Eberhard Moenkeberg <emoenke@gwdg.de>:
It seems a new generation of terrorists gets born here. They use the GPL just like the others the Koran.
Godwin :-(
No need to address me personally additionally, please. If our list moderator does not sniff what the wind blows, we need some more intelligence/awareness at the users. So please comply, or some RFC will get drawn against you. Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)
Hi, On Mon, 14 Aug 2006, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:
On Mon, 14 Aug 2006, Martin Schröder wrote:
2006/8/14, Eberhard Moenkeberg <emoenke@gwdg.de>:
It seems a new generation of terrorists gets born here. They use the GPL just like the others the Koran.
Godwin :-(
No need to address me personally additionally, please.
If our list moderator does not sniff what the wind blows, we need some more intelligence/awareness at the users.
So please comply, or some RFC will get drawn against you.
Why did this not appear at the list? Moderator Henne, are you acting as a censor? Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)
* Eberhard Moenkeberg <emoenke@gwdg.de> [08-13-06 21:15]:
So please comply, or some RFC will get drawn against you.
Why did this not appear at the list?
Moderator Henne, are you acting as a censor?
Humm, do you have a client problem?? I saw it: Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 01:33:30 +0200 (CEST) From: Eberhard Moenkeberg <emoenke@gwdg.de> To: Martin Schröder <martin@oneiros.de> Cc: opensuse@opensuse.org Subject: Re: [opensuse] Sources, revisited In-Reply-To: <68c491a60608131624l665ad5faxe94bf74e6e089c98@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0608140130560.28232@gwdu05.gwdg.de> References: <200608131637.52795.penguin0601@earthlink.net> <20060813205721.GZ29611@hennevogel.de> <200608131750.51994.penguin0601@earthlink.net> <20060813223029.GB29611@hennevogel.de> <68c491a60608131533j6a8596d2uf4e4cbe0e2e05904@mail.gmail.com> <Pine.LNX.4.61.0608140040370.28232@gwdu05.gwdg.de> <68c491a60608131624l665ad5faxe94bf74e6e089c98@mail.gmail.com> Precedence: bulk Mailing-List: contact opensuse-help@opensuse.org; run by mlmmj X-Mailinglist: opensuse On Mon, 14 Aug 2006, Martin Schröder wrote:
2006/8/14, Eberhard Moenkeberg <emoenke@gwdg.de>:
It seems a new generation of terrorists gets born here. They use the GPL just like the others the Koran.
Godwin :-(
No need to address me personally additionally, please. If our list moderator does not sniff what the wind blows, we need some more intelligence/awareness at the users. So please comply, or some RFC will get drawn against you. .... it *was* here, no censorship! -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org HOG # US1244711 Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2
Hi, [sorry for polluting you privately additional - it is just the crazy list configuration if yes] On Sun, 13 Aug 2006, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Eberhard Moenkeberg <emoenke@gwdg.de> [08-13-06 21:15]:
So please comply, or some RFC will get drawn against you.
Why did this not appear at the list?
Moderator Henne, are you acting as a censor?
Humm, do you have a client problem??
I saw it:
So maybe there are some semi intelligent "rules" activated at the list server.
it *was* here, no censorship!
If I do not get "my copy" - how shall I react? This is such a shit, installed in a dictatorship manner, that I will not tolerate. Meaning a simple GOODBYE, because I can't shoot our glorious moderator child playing the dictator. Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)
Hi, On Monday, August 14, 2006 at 03:57:34, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:
This is such a shit, installed in a dictatorship manner, that I will not tolerate. Meaning a simple GOODBYE, because I can't shoot our glorious moderator child playing the dictator.
Because i dont decide like you want the decision to be, im a child that decides in a dictatorship manner? Get real Eberhard and stop flaming like a 5 year old. There is a decision to make. Do we want Reply-To set to the list or not. We discussed this. There are arguments against it and arguments for it. I heard all of them and based on them i make a decision. If i would behave like you say we wouldnt have had this discussion at all. What do you want me to do? Except of course only listen to you personally and let you personally decide. I got that part. Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, Core Services "Rules change. The Game remains the same." - Omar (The Wire) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Just my vote (not that it weighs anything, but...): The standard behaviour in a mailing list is discussion, i.e. replying in a way so that everybody can participate, not to fork off 1-to-1 communication. To achieve this, one needs to make sure, that (at least one copy of) the reply is sent to the mailing list, and here the "traditional" method has two structural and big disadvantages over the "reply-to" method: 1) Replying per default (ok, depends on MUA) creates a fork off into 1-to-1 communication. 2) Replying to the list (via "Reply to all") without special user intervention will _always_ send off two copies of the reply. The use of the copy to the individual predecessor in the thread is at least questionable from my perspective. And it tends to annoy people! Because to me the advantage of the "traditional" method has not been made plausible, I don't understand the decision. Either you want to discuss something on the list, so you join and post. Or you just don't do it. The only advantage of the "traditional" method, I heard of yet, was making it easy to answer to outsiders asking questions to the list. That's a rare circumstance in my experience! So my vote is for the "reply-to" method. Tilman -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFE4GmO9ZPu6Yae8lkRAg/MAJ4i9UiSPILtySFAP4iPiGT97RycPQCeNm+M 3EzM4y5R+KWJgq7SkRmVCKU= =eRWS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Hi, On Mon, 14 Aug 2006, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
What do you want me to do? Except of course only listen to you personally and let you personally decide. I got that part.
Just add back the Reply-To header line. It helps in 99.9%, and it does no harm for the remaining 0.1%. Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Hello, Eberhard Moenkeberg <emoenke@gwdg.de> [2006-08-14]:
On Mon, 14 Aug 2006, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
What do you want me to do? Except of course only listen to you personally and let you personally decide. I got that part.
Just add back the Reply-To header line.
It helps in 99.9%, and it does no harm for the remaining 0.1%.
Well, I think we had the current setup (no reply to) for over five years in *@suse.com and it worked. In these times, only Mutt had support for list reply (from the "well-known" mailers). Now, where KMail and even Mozilla Thunderbird and Seamonkey have support for it (and Sylpheed Claws, but that's not well-known) should we change? Should we really take care of Outlook and Outlook Express mailers in a Linux mailing list? I think no. Regards, Bernhard -- 640 Kilobyte sind genug für jeden. -- Bill Gates (1981) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Hi, On Mon, 14 Aug 2006, Bernhard Walle wrote:
Eberhard Moenkeberg <emoenke@gwdg.de> [2006-08-14]:
On Mon, 14 Aug 2006, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
What do you want me to do? Except of course only listen to you personally and let you personally decide. I got that part.
Just add back the Reply-To header line.
It helps in 99.9%, and it does no harm for the remaining 0.1%.
Well, I think we had the current setup (no reply to) for over five years in *@suse.com and it worked. In these times, only Mutt had support for list reply (from the "well-known" mailers).
Now, where KMail and even Mozilla Thunderbird and Seamonkey have support for it (and Sylpheed Claws, but that's not well-known) should we change?
Should we really take care of Outlook and Outlook Express mailers in a Linux mailing list? I think no.
It does not work with pine. Again:
It helps in 99.9%, and it does no harm for the remaining 0.1%.
Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Bernhard Walle schrieb:
Now, where KMail and even Mozilla Thunderbird and Seamonkey have support for it (and Sylpheed Claws, but that's not well-known) should we change?
Ok, I am using Mozilla Thunderbird Version 1.5.0.5 (20060725). Could you please elaborate on how I can get around the following procedure in order to get decent replying behaviour? 1) Click "reply all" 2) Remove "To: Bernhard Walle <bernhard.walle@gmx.de>" 3) Change "CC: opensuse@opensuse.org" to "To: opensuse@opensuse.org" With the "Reply-To" method, I just click on reply and everything works as desired. Tilman -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFE4KOh9ZPu6Yae8lkRAhwIAKClwVdku9E6wXbeAsEcIWmX0RJEtgCePZy6 eH2l8HRqIAJzwXJxVhvmGWs= =i6q4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Hello, Tilman Vogel <tilman.vogel@web.de> [2006-08-14]:
Bernhard Walle schrieb:
Now, where KMail and even Mozilla Thunderbird and Seamonkey have support for it (and Sylpheed Claws, but that's not well-known) should we change?
Ok, I am using Mozilla Thunderbird Version 1.5.0.5 (20060725). Could you please elaborate on how I can get around the following procedure in order to get decent replying behaviour?
1) Click "reply all" 2) Remove "To: Bernhard Walle <bernhard.walle@gmx.de>" 3) Change "CC: opensuse@opensuse.org" to "To: opensuse@opensuse.org"
With the "Reply-To" method, I just click on reply and everything works as desired.
Get the lastest Thunderbird RPMs from ftp://ftp.suse.com/pub/projects/mozilla/experimental/10.1 and install the extension at http://open.nit.ca/wiki/index.php?page=ReplyToListThunderbirdExtension&7. See also http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.suse.opensuse.devel/3416. Regards, Bernhard -- Das Leben ist nur ein Moment, der Tod ist auch nur einer. -- Schiller --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Bernhard Walle schrieb:
Get the lastest Thunderbird RPMs from ftp://ftp.suse.com/pub/projects/mozilla/experimental/10.1 and install the extension at http://open.nit.ca/wiki/index.php?page=ReplyToListThunderbirdExtension&7.
See also http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.suse.opensuse.devel/3416.
Thanks for the hints, I'll look at it. Good to know also for all the other lists who drive on the wrong side of the road ;-) On the other hand: What's the main advantage of _not_ having Reply-To? Never understood it... With it, I guess, every MUA would do, without, now I need to install an extension for Thunderbird and do i-dont-know-what for other MUAs... Tilman -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFE4MBt9ZPu6Yae8lkRApsoAJ9ghOxzRw4y1PgTsv9g1nWGW9KdTwCfSerm gx/1o7cyW6mKV8kXqwot5oE= =UFi2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Hello, Tilman Vogel <tilman.vogel@web.de> [2006-08-14]:
Bernhard Walle schrieb:
Get the lastest Thunderbird RPMs from ftp://ftp.suse.com/pub/projects/mozilla/experimental/10.1 and install the extension at http://open.nit.ca/wiki/index.php?page=ReplyToListThunderbirdExtension&7.
See also http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.suse.opensuse.devel/3416.
Thanks for the hints, I'll look at it. Good to know also for all the other lists who drive on the wrong side of the road ;-)
On the other hand: What's the main advantage of _not_ having Reply-To? Never understood it...
You can reply to the poster without manually edit the receiver. Regards, Bernhard -- Das Wichtigste im Leben ist die Wahl des Berufes. Der Zufall entscheidet darüber. -- Blaise Pascal (1623 - 1662) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 14 August 2006 21:50, Bernhard Walle wrote:
On the other hand: What's the main advantage of _not_ having Reply-To? Never understood it...
You can reply to the poster without manually edit the receiver.
I think the advantage most quoted in these arguments is that you are far less likely to accidentally send a private reply (possibly personal) to the entire world through the list. That sort of accident happens *a lot* on lists where the default is to reply to the list I'm sure you have read http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Bernhard Walle schrieb:
Tilman Vogel <tilman.vogel@web.de> [2006-08-14]:
On the other hand: What's the main advantage of _not_ having Reply-To? Never understood it...
You can reply to the poster without manually edit the receiver.
As a Thunderbird user I can only say: Click on the From line, choose "compose to", you're done. No extension required. Personal opinion: MUAs that don't offer such functionality are b0rken. Ok, I'll shut up now. Cheers, Tilman -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFE4Nss9ZPu6Yae8lkRAuSSAKCA07XTnvJFeBFoetkQoasrWzqrAwCeJW4v Na9sx3+41glWeprzD0ERzLY= =8+8d -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Tilman Vogel schrieb:
As a Thunderbird user I can only say: Click on the From line, choose "compose to", you're done. No extension required.
This will break the thread structure because the References header is lost. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Hi, On Monday, August 14, 2006 at 20:26:53, Tilman Vogel wrote:
On the other hand: What's the main advantage of _not_ having Reply-To?
I would say that you dont restrict people on using reply-to. There is only one reply-to possible in a mail and if the list sets it, you cant. Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, http://hennevogel.de "To die. In the rain. Alone." Ernest Hemingway --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Tilman Vogel a écrit :
Ok, I am using Mozilla Thunderbird Version 1.5.0.5 (20060725). Could you please elaborate on how I can get around the following procedure in order to get decent replying behaviour?
1) Click "reply all" 2) Remove "To: Bernhard Walle <bernhard.walle@gmx.de>" 3) Change "CC: opensuse@opensuse.org" to "To: opensuse@opensuse.org"
just to note than: * the 3) is not necessary, the mail with a "cc" and without "to" is sent without problem (at least on seamonkey) * the 2) is often recommanded, but having from time to time to delete one more mail is a thing I can live with so, think to always hit "reply to all" on any list you use... and your mail will always be received jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 2006-08-15 at 12:57 +0200, jdd wrote:
Tilman Vogel a écrit :
Ok, I am using Mozilla Thunderbird Version 1.5.0.5 (20060725). Could you please elaborate on how I can get around the following procedure in order to get decent replying behaviour?
1) Click "reply all" 2) Remove "To: Bernhard Walle <bernhard.walle@gmx.de>" 3) Change "CC: opensuse@opensuse.org" to "To: opensuse@opensuse.org"
just to note than:
* the 3) is not necessary, the mail with a "cc" and without "to" is sent without problem (at least on seamonkey)
* the 2) is often recommanded, but having from time to time to delete one more mail is a thing I can live with
so, think to always hit "reply to all" on any list you use... and your mail will always be received
????????????????????????????? I'm on three suse lists that generate over 200 emails a day and now you want me to receive over 400 because your email client does not work correctly. This is just plain stupid. Use a client that works with lists. -- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Kenneth Schneider a écrit :
I'm on three suse lists that generate over 200 emails a day and now you want me to receive over 400 because your email client does not work correctly. This is just plain stupid. Use a client that works with lists.
you wont receive _all_ the mails twice. only the ones that answers one of your own post jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Hi, On Tue, 15 Aug 2006, jdd wrote:
Kenneth Schneider a écrit :
I'm on three suse lists that generate over 200 emails a day and now you want me to receive over 400 because your email client does not work correctly. This is just plain stupid. Use a client that works with lists.
you wont receive _all_ the mails twice. only the ones that answers one of your own post
From that moment on you will receive the whole thread twice. Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)
Eberhard Moenkeberg a écrit :
From that moment on you will receive the whole thread twice.
Cheers -e of course not. anybody can see this (or did you subscribe twice on two different adresses?) jdd
-- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Hi, On Tue, 15 Aug 2006, jdd wrote:
Eberhard Moenkeberg a écrit :
From that moment on you will receive the whole thread twice.
of course not. anybody can see this (or did you subscribe twice on two different adresses?)
You do not know what you are speaking about. I have just gone through such a matter in suse-sles-e, with a lengthy thread which since long did no more interest me, but some of the posters again and again did the default reply. Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)
Eberhard Moenkeberg a écrit :
Hi,
On Tue, 15 Aug 2006, jdd wrote:
Eberhard Moenkeberg a écrit :
From that moment on you will receive the whole thread twice.
of course not. anybody can see this (or did you subscribe twice on two different adresses?)
You do not know what you are speaking about.
yes I do :-) and I receive your message only once :-) (as most of the thread messages) jdd (receive ~ 400 mails a day...) -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Hi, On Tue, 15 Aug 2006, jdd wrote:
Eberhard Moenkeberg a écrit :
On Tue, 15 Aug 2006, jdd wrote:
Eberhard Moenkeberg a écrit :
From that moment on you will receive the whole thread twice.
of course not. anybody can see this (or did you subscribe twice on two different adresses?)
You do not know what you are speaking about.
yes I do :-) and I receive your message only once :-) (as most of the thread messages)
jdd (receive ~ 400 mails a day...)
You have a special kind of childishness. Something between stupid and nasty. Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)
Eberhard Moenkeberg <emoenke@gwdg.de> writes:
You do not know what you are speaking about. I have just gone through such a matter in suse-sles-e, with a lengthy thread which since long did no more interest me, but some of the posters again and again did the default reply.
Add "Mail-Copies-To: never" to your message header and hope the best. At least, Gnus honors this setting. BTW, I appreciate the removal of the Reply-To setting--but I do not vote. -- Karl Eichwalder R&D / Documentation SUSE Linux Products GmbH Key fingerprint = B2A3 AF2F CFC8 40B1 67EA 475A 5903 A21B 06EB 882E --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Hi, On Wed, 16 Aug 2006, Karl Eichwalder wrote:
Eberhard Moenkeberg <emoenke@gwdg.de> writes:
You do not know what you are speaking about. I have just gone through such a matter in suse-sles-e, with a lengthy thread which since long did no more interest me, but some of the posters again and again did the default reply.
Add "Mail-Copies-To: never" to your message header and hope the best. At least, Gnus honors this setting.
With a list server attached "Reply-To", _NOT_ANY_ handcrafting would be necessary _ANYWHERE_.
BTW, I appreciate the removal of the Reply-To setting--but I do not vote.
Please tell me a practical reason... I do not see anything else than a chance for posters to use "split addresses", i.e. to direct list answers away from the list. Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Eberhard Moenkeberg <emoenke@gwdg.de> writes:
With a list server attached "Reply-To", _NOT_ANY_ handcrafting would be necessary _ANYWHERE_.
I'd have to set the broken-reply-to flag for Gnus--otherwise pressing (r)eply would do the wrong thing.
Please tell me a practical reason... I do not see anything else than a chance for posters to use "split addresses", i.e. to direct list answers away from the list.
Still enough mails, more than enough mails! will find their way onto the list ;) I like it to receive messages twice if somebody answers my mailinglist contributions--one message will go into the ML folder and the other one into my default folder. If you don't like it, just set reply-to to opensuse@opensuse.org for this list. That's possible, but if the ML pretends to own the reply-to field, participants cannot make use of this field. Not setting reply-to is just a good thing to secure your personal data; setting reply-to is just too dangerous for users new to MLs. Join a ML such as Internet in Bibliotheken <inetbib@ub.uni-dortmund.de> and you will quickly see what the problem with setting reply-to. -- Karl Eichwalder R&D / Documentation SUSE Linux Products GmbH Key fingerprint = B2A3 AF2F CFC8 40B1 67EA 475A 5903 A21B 06EB 882E --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:
[...]
With a list server attached "Reply-To", _NOT_ANY_ handcrafting would be necessary _ANYWHERE_.
This is plain wrong. If there is a reply-to set by the server, the email will always go back to the list whether I use the "Reply" or "List Reply" functionality. So I need to edit the address field if I want to send a private answer (and yes, this happens quite often). If I use the "Reply All" functionality, I need to edit the address field as well in this case because I have to remove the list address. I definitely call this "handcrafting" and it disproves your statement cited above. On the other hand, if the server does *not* insert a reply-to, then there is really no handcraft necessary. I can use "Reply" to send a private message only, I can use "List Reply" to send my email to the list, and I can use "Reply All" to send a private email with a CC: to the list. Perfect! Now you ask everybody who uses a list reply to give up this functionality just because you want it in a different way? That's a bit odd... Cheers, Th. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Hi, On Wed, 16 Aug 2006, Thomas Hertweck wrote:
Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:
[...]
With a list server attached "Reply-To", _NOT_ANY_ handcrafting would be necessary _ANYWHERE_.
This is plain wrong.
You are wrong.
If there is a reply-to set by the server, the email will always go back to the list whether I use the "Reply" or "List Reply" functionality.
Yes! Remember, you are communicating through a mailing list server! The list is the default goal!
So I need to edit the address field if I want to send a private answer (and yes, this happens quite often). If I use the "Reply All" functionality, I need to edit the address field as well in this case because I have to remove the list address. I definitely call this "handcrafting" and it disproves your statement cited above.
Your "if" is about 0.1%. The other 99.9% is: reply to the list. So the choice is to configure the list server so that either 1 or 999 hands have to craft to get it right.
On the other hand, if the server does *not* insert a reply-to, then there is really no handcraft necessary. I can use "Reply" to send a private message only, I can use "List Reply" to send my email to the list, and I can use "Reply All" to send a private email with a CC: to the list. Perfect!
So maybe you have found the appropriate mail tool for you. Lucky guy.
Now you ask everybody who uses a list reply to give up this functionality just because you want it in a different way? That's a bit odd...
What exactly would you have to give up? Plain nothing! You simply would need one more move in 1 of 1000 cases, but the other 999 cases would get a chance to do it right without extra thoughts and extra actions. Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
2006/8/16, Eberhard Moenkeberg <emoenke@gwdg.de>:
Yes! Remember, you are communicating through a mailing list server! The list is the default goal!
Are you _sure_ that you want all your flaming and vitriol on the list? I for sure don't. Best Martin --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Hi, On Wed, 16 Aug 2006, Martin Schröder wrote:
2006/8/16, Eberhard Moenkeberg <emoenke@gwdg.de>:
Yes! Remember, you are communicating through a mailing list server! The list is the default goal!
Are you _sure_ that you want all your flaming and vitriol on the list? I for sure don't.
Fuck off if you have no rational contributions. I feel it a pain that some of us think they have to argue during the voting phase. But you have to understand, I feel the need to kick any ass which is levering against my face. And you should have understood that before you replied - so what is your real intention to piss me at the knee here? Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)
On Wednesday 16 August 2006 22:13, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:
Hi,
On Wed, 16 Aug 2006, Martin Schröder wrote:
2006/8/16, Eberhard Moenkeberg <emoenke@gwdg.de>:
Yes! Remember, you are communicating through a mailing list server! The list is the default goal!
Are you _sure_ that you want all your flaming and vitriol on the list? I for sure don't.
Fuck off if you have no rational contributions.
Very classy reply. Really, really class. You must be proud of the volume of shite you're causing.
I feel it a pain that some of us think they have to argue during the voting phase.
But you have to understand, I feel the need to kick any ass which is levering against my face.
Don't worry, I wouldn't dare put my ass against your face. Your attitude sucks, and thats probably not all.....
And you should have understood that before you replied - so what is your real intention to piss me at the knee here?
Cheers -e
I have a two year old and a four year old boy as sons. I see better behaviour from them than I see from you. Grow up, then come back and talk to us. This discussion is getting way too stupid. Can I vote to disregard everyone and allow Henne to decide the policy he wants on the list? Everyone else can just learn how to post regardless of how the bloody headers are set. It's not really that important. Not really. Think about it. Seriously, this is stupid and unconstructive. Eberhard, go away and relieve your too obvious tension however feel you need to. It's an email list, not The Rapture. I will cope with whatever the list does, somehow. If this means I change what key I press to reply to a private post or a list post, I'm sure my brain will handle it. Everyone who can't perform a 'reset' on an email list probably shouldn't be on it. Darwin and all that. This discussion is getting stupid now, there are more important things to discuss. Cheers Pete --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Hi, On Wed, 16 Aug 2006, Pete Connolly wrote:
On Wednesday 16 August 2006 22:13, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:
On Wed, 16 Aug 2006, Martin Schröder wrote:
2006/8/16, Eberhard Moenkeberg <emoenke@gwdg.de>:
Yes! Remember, you are communicating through a mailing list server! The list is the default goal!
Are you _sure_ that you want all your flaming and vitriol on the list? I for sure don't.
Fuck off if you have no rational contributions.
Very classy reply. Really, really class. You must be proud of the volume of shite you're causing.
Yes, I really need that. You know, my real Ego is so tiny...
I feel it a pain that some of us think they have to argue during the voting phase.
But you have to understand, I feel the need to kick any ass which is levering against my face.
Don't worry, I wouldn't dare put my ass against your face. Your attitude sucks, and thats probably not all.....
This is indeed a very strong argument for the missing "Reply-To".
And you should have understood that before you replied - so what is your real intention to piss me at the knee here?
I have a two year old and a four year old boy as sons. I see better behaviour from them than I see from you. Grow up, then come back and talk to us.
Crazy. It must be solely your natural stupidity that you like to tell us this here.
This discussion is getting way too stupid. Can I vote to disregard everyone and allow Henne to decide the policy he wants on the list? Everyone else can just learn how to post regardless of how the bloody headers are set. It's not really that important. Not really. Think about it.
Seriously, this is stupid and unconstructive. Eberhard, go away and relieve your too obvious tension however feel you need to. It's an email list, not The Rapture. I will cope with whatever the list does, somehow. If this means I change what key I press to reply to a private post or a list post, I'm sure my brain will handle it.
Everyone who can't perform a 'reset' on an email list probably shouldn't be on it. Darwin and all that. This discussion is getting stupid now, there are more important things to discuss.
You missed the point and did not even see it. The matter is not "to perform" anything against the wrong list server setup, but to setup the list server in the most convenient way. Excuse me please that I have taken you more serious than you are worth it. It will not happen again. Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)
On 17/08/06 01:17 +0200, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:
On Wed, 16 Aug 2006, Pete Connolly wrote:
On Wednesday 16 August 2006 22:13, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:
But you have to understand, I feel the need to kick any ass which is levering against my face.
Don't worry, I wouldn't dare put my ass against your face. Your attitude sucks, and thats probably not all.....
This is indeed a very strong argument for the missing "Reply-To".
Indeed! Fact is, this is not really an issue worth getting heated over (n.b. the number of "don't care" responses to the list), so could we all just wait (im)patiently for the results and let normal service resume? One way or the other, advocates from one of the factions is going to have to perform a little extra work to send the messages to the intended recipient. The poor diddums. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Hi, On Thu, 17 Aug 2006, Craig Millar wrote:
On 17/08/06 01:17 +0200, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:
On Wed, 16 Aug 2006, Pete Connolly wrote:
On Wednesday 16 August 2006 22:13, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:
But you have to understand, I feel the need to kick any ass which is levering against my face.
Don't worry, I wouldn't dare put my ass against your face. Your attitude sucks, and thats probably not all.....
This is indeed a very strong argument for the missing "Reply-To".
Indeed!
Crazy. Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, 16 Aug 2006 23:13:07 +0200 (CEST), Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:
Fuck off if you have no rational contributions.
I feel it a pain that some of us think they have to argue during the voting phase.
That does it: PLONK Philipp --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:
[...] You are wrong.
I have *arguments*. You have *opinions*.
[...] Yes! Remember, you are communicating through a mailing list server! The list is the default goal!
This is your opinion. You can't know how a user would like to send his answer. Neither do I. And that's why the choice should be up to the user and it should not be made by a list server! You numbers might be right for you, but you can't conclude from your situation that it's similar for all other people. Although the majority of my answers goes back to the mailing list, there is also a significant amount that is being sent by PM. You are right that new users might not know about a list reply functionality in e.g. Kmail. But should this be a reason for a reply-to set by the server? From my point of view, clearly no. This is a step backwards. The new user might be happy to learn something, and from then on he can use it like so many other people...
[...] So maybe you have found the appropriate mail tool for you. Lucky guy.
I think you're pissed off because something is not going the way you'd like to have it. Now you behave like a small child and you riot until you get what you want. Maybe you will, so be it. Some time ago, you said "This is so crazy that I tend to resign all my activity (including reading) here" - when reading all your flames, provocations, personal hostilities etc. here on this list, and unfortunately there are numerous examples in the archive, I think this would not be such a bad idea... And thanks for sending a CC: although being fully aware of it (it has been filtered here, by the way) - this really shows that you don't care at all about others. This is my last email in this thread. The whole discussion is really ridiculous. Cheers, Th. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Hi, On Wed, 16 Aug 2006, Thomas Hertweck wrote:
Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:
[...] You are wrong.
I have *arguments*. You have *opinions*.
[...] Yes! Remember, you are communicating through a mailing list server! The list is the default goal!
This is your opinion.
This is crazy. You are arguing like a child which has pissed into a public sand box. No chance. Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
From that moment on you will receive the whole thread twice.
Cheers -e
of course not. anybody can see this (or did you subscribe twice on two different adresses?)
Of course you get it twice. I bet you are not subscribed to LKML where this happens _any time_. As soon as you replied, your address will rest in the Cc forever until someone takes it out manually (or hopefully the thread dies some time). And of course, linux-kernel@ is also in the Cc or To field, ergo, you get it twice. Yes, there are some occasions when you only get one mail: when an MTA is able to figure out that you are listed twice, e.g.: From: jengelh@linux01 To: jengelh@linux01 Cc: jengelh@linux01 Subject: blubb I will only get this mail once. But the MTA of Mr. Anonymous User does not know that the linux-kernel@ (or opensuse, or whatever) address contains myself too. Jan Engelhardt -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
* Jan Engelhardt <jengelh@linux01.gwdg.de> [08-16-06 10:04]:
Of course you get it twice. I bet you are not subscribed to LKML where this happens _any time_. As soon as you replied, your address will rest in the Cc forever until someone takes it out manually (or hopefully the thread dies some time). And of course, linux-kernel@ is also in the Cc or To field, ergo, you get it twice. Yes, there are some occasions when you only get one mail: when an MTA is able to figure out that you are listed twice, e.g.:
From: jengelh@linux01 To: jengelh@linux01 Cc: jengelh@linux01 Subject: blubb
I will only get this mail once. But the MTA of Mr. Anonymous User does not know that the linux-kernel@ (or opensuse, or whatever) address contains myself too.
me 2, once :^) # ------------------------------------------------------- LOCKFILE = msgid.cache.lock :0 Whc: msgid.lock | $FORMAIL -D 8192 msgid.cache LOCKFILE ### save duplicates in case of error #:0 a: #$MAILDIR/duplicates # no errors in > 1 year, -> bit_bucket :0 a: /dev/null # ------------------------------------------------------- -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org HOG # US1244711 Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Jan Engelhardt a écrit :
Of course you get it twice. I bet you are not subscribed to LKML where this happens _any time_. As soon as you replied, your address will rest in the Cc forever until someone takes it out manually
well... most users remove the unwanted adress, as I do and so I do _not_ receive the mails twice with seamonkey without any tweeking (except yours and eberhart's :-() jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Of course you get it twice. I bet you are not subscribed to LKML where this happens _any time_. As soon as you replied, your address will rest in the Cc forever until someone takes it out manually
well... most users remove the unwanted adress, as I do and so I do _not_ receive the mails twice with seamonkey without any tweeking (except yours and eberhart's :-()
From: jdd <jdd@dodin.org> Cc: opensuse@opensuse.org (r)eply, Reply to all recipients Yes => to: jdd, cc: opensuse No => to: jdd Simple, two mails. No? Now, if a Reply-To header was present, pine would do sth like "Use Reply-To or not?" and, in case I said yes, only do to: <reply-to-addr> Therefore, reply-to is some people's preferred thing. In case you want the to/cc one, one would just need to say 'no' to 'use reply-to'. Jan Engelhardt -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Eberhard Moenkeberg a écrit :
From that moment on you will receive the whole thread twice.
I of course don't receive twice the thread. but this lead me to a question: who do receive _all_ the messages twice? I understand _this_ could upset someone, but is so we must find why, this is definitively _not_ the normal way of the list. only if anybody * answer your very own post * never delete the personal adress from the post you should receive all the message twice. Notice this: if somebody answer to the list & the personal adress and _you_ try to answer to his message, you end up with _three_ adresses, the original one, the sender one and the list one. so it's really better, when you answer, to remove the unwanted adresses jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Hi, On Tue, 15 Aug 2006, jdd wrote:
Notice this: if somebody answer to the list & the personal adress and _you_ try to answer to his message, you end up with _three_ adresses, the original one, the sender one and the list one. so it's really better, when you answer, to remove the unwanted adresses
You must have gone crazy thinking I need you to tell me that... I have voted for "add Reply-To" - guess why until you fall into dust. Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 2006-08-15 at 20:13 +0200, jdd wrote:
Eberhard Moenkeberg a écrit :
From that moment on you will receive the whole thread twice.
I of course don't receive twice the thread. but this lead me to a question:
who do receive _all_ the messages twice?
I understand _this_ could upset someone, but is so we must find why, this is definitively _not_ the normal way of the list.
only if anybody
* answer your very own post * never delete the personal adress from the post
you should receive all the message twice.
Notice this: if somebody answer to the list & the personal adress and _you_ try to answer to his message, you end up with _three_ adresses, the original one, the sender one and the list one. so it's really better, when you answer, to remove the unwanted adresses
jdd
I do see your point now but, I still do _not_ need to receive two copies of a reply simply because that person is too lazy to edit the To: field. You ask everyone else to accept the way your non-conformist client works which is wrong. The better option is to get Mozilla to fix their product. -- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Kenneth Schneider a écrit :
I do see your point now but
I don't think so. the eberhart post make me feel there is more than the reply-to problem. if he receives twice _all_ the posts of the thread, this is _not_ a reply-to problem... jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Hi, On Tue, 15 Aug 2006, jdd wrote:
Kenneth Schneider a écrit :
I do see your point now but
I don't think so.
the eberhart post make me feel there is more than the reply-to problem.
if he receives twice _all_ the posts of the thread, this is _not_ a reply-to problem...
You should read more carefully if you like to answer as much as you like... Almost all. From the moment on when you have posted and somebody answers without editing the headers, just like this post. Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)
Eberhard Moenkeberg a écrit :
Hi,
On Tue, 15 Aug 2006, jdd wrote:
Kenneth Schneider a écrit :
I do see your point now but
I don't think so.
the eberhart post make me feel there is more than the reply-to problem.
if he receives twice _all_ the posts of the thread, this is _not_ a reply-to problem...
You should read more carefully if you like to answer as much as you like...
Almost all. From the moment on when you have posted and somebody answers without editing the headers, just like this post.
Cheers -e well. usually I remove the private adress when relpying (but I can forgot sometimes)
actually, if somebody hit "reply all" and do not remove the unwanted adresses, these adresses are stacked, that is the mail can be sent to much more than two recipient however it's difficult to do this without noticing it (and I suppose you know that, but many on this list don't seems to know, as they keep sending multiple messages) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
So please comply, or some RFC will get drawn against you. Why did this not appear at the list? Moderator Henne, are you acting as a censor?
Humm, do you have a client problem?? I saw it:
"me²" Not sure if this list has some sort of "[NOT] me-too" (option for not receiving one's own mail) option like GNU mailman does. Jan Engelhardt --
Martin Schröder schrieb:
Looking at http://en.opensuse.org/Released_Version#Downloads_SUSE_Linux_10.1, the link for sources could be two lines up or more prominent.
LOL! You made my day. This is sooo ridiculous. The link which is two lines up compared to the sources link is the direct parent directory of the sources directory with a subdirectory named "src" in it, which is - surprise, surprise - the sources directory. And now the next great proposal will be that "src" is too hard to figure out, I guess. And the proposal will of course be made by a person who has no clue that the binary RPMs and source RPMs are in fact a single repository. Nice comedy. ;-)
* Andreas Hanke <andreas.hanke@gmx-topmail.de> [08-13-06 19:46]:
And now the next great proposal will be that "src" is too hard to figure out, I guess. And the proposal will of course be made by a person who has no clue that the binary RPMs and source RPMs are in fact a single repository.
Nice comedy. ;-)
no, the situation is becoming very similar to the beginnings of aol. Remember? -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org HOG # US1244711 Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2
Hi, BandiPat schrieb:
You miss the whole point! Logically, there should be as much mention of source files as of anything else. Logically, according to the GPL, source files are equally if not more important than binaries.
Are you now going to set up rules how the sources availability must be presented? Why? Are the sources easier to find on www.mozilla.com or www.openoffice.org or www.ubuntu.com? No, the other way round: They are easier to find on opensuse.org than on any other comparable project's site. I am still unable to find ANY place on opensuse.org that links to binaries and not to sources, but I am able to find many such places on ubuntu.com. What you are asking for is a ridiculous over-interpretation of the GPL. Finding the binaries on opensuse.org, but not finding the sources is impossible, period.
Novell needs to realize they are dealing with open source software now.
*sigh* I don't know your imagination of Novell, but I do know that most Novell people involved with opensuse.org have @suse.de mail addresses and know exactly how to deal with open source software because they have been dealing with open source software for AGES.
Maybe they'll eventually get it right, maybe they won't, but one thing sure, they do need to fix some things.
There is nothing to be fixed about sources availability. No problem => Nothing to be fixed. It's really a non-issue. Non-issues like this one are the typical result of fake GPL violation claims like the recent one on Groklaw: They multiply themselves infinitely. Just stop it. Andreas Hanke
On Sunday 13 August 2006 18:30, Andreas Hanke wrote: [...]
There is nothing to be fixed about sources availability. No problem => Nothing to be fixed. It's really a non-issue.
Non-issues like this one are the typical result of fake GPL violation claims like the recent one on Groklaw: They multiply themselves infinitely. Just stop it.
Andreas Hanke ===========
You can blame that if you like, but I suspect it only played a small part in renewing the issues many of us have had for a while with source files & SUSE, Andreas. If you guys arguing want to ignore it, that's fine. We can agree to disagree. No new rules need to be made for anything. I would just like there to be things made simpler, more obvious to all users. Linux has to get that way and the programs as well or it will continue to be viewed as a geek hobbyist OS. regards, Lee
Hi, On Sun, 13 Aug 2006, BandiPat wrote:
On Sunday 13 August 2006 18:30, Andreas Hanke wrote:
[...]
There is nothing to be fixed about sources availability. No problem => Nothing to be fixed. It's really a non-issue.
Non-issues like this one are the typical result of fake GPL violation claims like the recent one on Groklaw: They multiply themselves infinitely. Just stop it.
Andreas Hanke ===========
You can blame that if you like, but I suspect it only played a small part in renewing the issues many of us have had for a while with source files & SUSE, Andreas.
If you guys arguing want to ignore it, that's fine. We can agree to disagree. No new rules need to be made for anything. I would just like there to be things made simpler, more obvious to all users. Linux has to get that way and the programs as well or it will continue to be viewed as a geek hobbyist OS.
But the absolute deadline is this: Serving fools just creates a new fool. Some realize it early enough, some start foolishing themselves before. Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)
BandiPat schrieb:
You can blame that if you like, but I suspect it only played a small part in renewing the issues many of us have had for a while with source files & SUSE, Andreas.
What issues about SUSE and source files are you talking about? And who is "many"? I know many people who are using SUSE source packages to build their own packages, either as a template or in order to investigate things or maybe just to look at the style and things like that, and nobody that I know ever had an issue with it.
If you guys arguing want to ignore it, that's fine.
What is being ignored? The requirement to provide full sources is not ignored. What should be ignored is this pointless stuff we're discussing here.
I would just like there to be things made simpler, more obvious to all users.
What can be more simple and obvious than having links to sources and binaries at the same place? This is what we currently have! Do you propose a larger font, or a different type of font, or a different colour, or something else... Could you make a little mockup or some sort of demonstration?
Linux has to get that way and the programs as well or it will continue to be viewed as a geek hobbyist OS.
??? What does the presentation of the sources have to do with hobbyism? I tend to find the current solution very nice and very professional: The information the vast majority of users is interested in (the ISOs) is presented with icons and the rest (the binary and source repositories, which are in fact a single repository) as text links. It's perfect as-is.
On Sunday 13 August 2006 19:39, Andreas Hanke wrote: [...]
What does the presentation of the sources have to do with hobbyism? I tend to find the current solution very nice and very professional: The information the vast majority of users is interested in (the ISOs) is presented with icons and the rest (the binary and source repositories, which are in fact a single repository) as text links. It's perfect as-is.
---------- Andreas, I can see how you would think this. Clueless, totally clueless. qué será será adios Lee
Are you now going to set up rules how the sources availability must be presented? Why? Are the sources easier to find on www.mozilla.com or www.openoffice.org or www.ubuntu.com? No, the other way round: They are easier to find on opensuse.org than on any other comparable project's site.
en.opensuse.org -> Download -> Download SUSE Linux 10.1 -> Sources
mozilla.org -> Developers -> Get the Source -> Releases A draw. Jan Engelhardt --
Am Sonntag, 13. August 2006 23:50 schrieb BandiPat:
On Sunday 13 August 2006 16:57, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
You miss the whole point! Logically, there should be as much mention of source files as of anything else. Logically, according to the GPL, source files are equally if not more important than binaries. If any logic had been used, sources wouldn't be so difficult to find from the box or from the sites.
I don't get your point, I just picked up the box the CD's and DVD came in, took less than a couple of seconds to spot the URL for the sources printed on the box. Likewise, just gone to the Download page, under the list of ISO and Torrents for downloading is the word "Sources"... I mean, what is there so obfuscated or hard to locate? Short of the web page automatically redirecting you to the Sources ftp server when you open the page, and having to click the "Stop" button on your web browser to stay on the page and download the binaries, I can't see how it could be made any easier...
A lot of changes with Novell's purchase, some have me worried.
Heh i love that. Blame it on Novell. Those evil bastards hid the libgimpprint source. I bet Ron Hovsepian personally thought of that evil trick to let libgimpprint come out of ghostscript-library!
Henne
========== Loving it is not going to fix it. If you continue to wax over the little points, pretty soon a lot of big ones will show up as well. Will you still be loving it then or one of the users yelling the loudest? Novell needs to realize they are dealing with open source software now. Maybe they'll eventually get it right, maybe they won't, but one thing sure, they do need to fix some things.
You seem to be making a mountain out of a grain of sand here. I mean, still being within the guidelines of the GPL, Novell could be charging you for access to the sources, instead of that, they are putting the URL on the outside of the packaging and having the links on the pages where they offer links to the binaries as well... -- David Wright Wright Information Services Europa "I got to go figure," the tenant said. "We all got to figure. There's some way to stop this. It's not like lightning or earthquakes. We've got a bad thing made by men, and by God that's something we can change." - The Grapes of Wrath, by John Steinbeck --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
BandiPat a écrit :
Does Novell not want us to know about the source files?
I'm surpriseds that in all that thread nobody quoted that this is a wiki and anybody is free to write a special page about sources with all that stuff. do it, please, and don't blame Novell if it's not done, Novell is _not_ the author of the wiki... jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos
jdd wrote:
BandiPat a écrit :
Does Novell not want us to know about the source files?
I'm surpriseds that in all that thread nobody quoted that this is a wiki and anybody is free to write a special page about sources with all that stuff.
do it, please, and don't blame Novell if it's not done, Novell is _not_ the author of the wiki...
jdd
:-) There are many reasons, than much more energy is used to write all this discussions, than few simple words on wiki. The story behind posting that complains about missing sources is not how to find sources, but how to prove that is hard to find them. The answers are just what someone needs, and pushes further repeating nonsense, to see more different answers. I would quit helping them. -- Regards, Rajko. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
participants (21)
-
Anders Johansson -
Andreas Hanke -
BandiPat -
Bernhard Walle -
Craig Millar -
David Wright -
Duncan Mac-Vicar Prett -
Eberhard Moenkeberg -
Henne Vogelsang -
Henne Vogelsang -
Jan Engelhardt -
jdd -
Karl Eichwalder -
Kenneth Schneider -
Martin Schröder -
Patrick Shanahan -
Pete Connolly -
Philipp Thomas -
Rajko M -
Thomas Hertweck -
Tilman Vogel