primm wrote:
<snip>
Hi and thanks Joe. You give me new hope.
Another doubt I had was as to whether this list was also for people using opensuse commercially. Maybe I'm breaking the law making money indirectly from opensuse. I don't mind paying for support but the advice here is all I need.
<snip>
Love and kisses from Lynn.
Ok Lynn, You've managed to hit my hot button. This is exactly what is wrong, and I mean what is REALLY WRONG with *US* now days. Microsoft has so poluted our collective minds that it has convinced us that it is somehow illegal for us to actually EARN a living using the software we have purchased (or in their case, rented). Virtually everything their OS does is check to see that the user is doing what Microsoft feels is to the benefit of Microsoft and not to the benefit of the equipment owner and the benefit of the user of the product. Linux on the other hand, in its' many flavors, including SuSE, spends *all* of its' time doing what the owner of the equipment wants, doing what is best for the user, doing what is potentially most profitable for the user of the OS and not for the worlds already richest individual or the company he is associated with. No lawyers are waiting on an owner of a Linux machine to fail to put in some 20 or 60 digit proof of purchase CD code followed by endless CPU cycles to ensure you don't have equipment failures and move the software to replacement equipment "properly". In fact, Linux encourages you to distribute it freely and use it in the way YOU want it in the way it best benefits YOU! When Linux fails to do these things, it is because of a malfunction, not design or legalities, and there are literally thousands of people out in the world working, largely for free, to fix those bugs. Where companies like Novell make their money is not by selling Linux, but by selling support and expertise. There is nothing wrong with that. They give Linux away (except for the cost of the media and paper) and earn their money by conducting seminars, sending support engineers out, helping design installations, answering technical questions to those that are willing to pay for that information. They don't have to pay people to verify 60 digit CD codes were legally obtained by you from a particular store for a particular machine with a CPU having certain disk drives in it. What a world Microsoft has created! It makes honest people *think* they are thieves!!!! Lynn, STOP feeling guilty about USING Linux and certainly stop feeling guilty about asking for help, whether or not you eventually make a profit from the information is irrelevant. Richard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Richard Creighton wrote:
What a world Microsoft has created! It makes honest people *think* they are thieves!!!!
Lynn, STOP feeling guilty about USING Linux and certainly stop feeling guilty about asking for help, whether or not you eventually make a profit from the information is irrelevant.
Richard
A few years ago, someone tried telling me it was illegal to buy a computer without Windows loaded. -- Use OpenOffice.org <http://www.openoffice.org> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
James Knott wrote:
Richard Creighton wrote:
What a world Microsoft has created! It makes honest people *think* they are thieves!!!!
Lynn, STOP feeling guilty about USING Linux and certainly stop feeling guilty about asking for help, whether or not you eventually make a profit from the information is irrelevant.
Richard
A few years ago, someone tried telling me it was illegal to buy a computer without Windows loaded.
Wow, so this is the sort of nonsense that passes as common sense? No wonder it's taking so long to put a dent in mickeysoft's market share. Joe -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 joe wrote:
James Knott wrote:
Richard Creighton wrote:
What a world Microsoft has created! It makes honest people *think* they are thieves!!!!
Lynn, STOP feeling guilty about USING Linux and certainly stop feeling guilty about asking for help, whether or not you eventually make a profit from the information is irrelevant.
Richard
A few years ago, someone tried telling me it was illegal to buy a computer without Windows loaded.
Wow, so this is the sort of nonsense that passes as common sense? No wonder it's taking so long to put a dent in mickeysoft's market share.
Joe
It gets worse, try out this article for a bit of a laugh... :-) Poor chap found store would not repair hinge of laptop 'cos he had put linux on it !? http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2007/09/17/pc_world_linux_frustration/ - -- ============================================================================== I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my telephone. Bjarne Stroustrup ============================================================================== -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFG/1oAasN0sSnLmgIRAiCIAKCAvsV8aRSRan5fK94R6D8PFEvmrwCfRUX+ Hh7nc2CFq8mdTzNe+VIY3Xo= =vq5i -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 30 September 2007 10:10, G T Smith wrote:
joe wrote:
James Knott wrote:
Richard Creighton wrote:
What a world Microsoft has created! It makes honest people *think* they are thieves!!!!
Lynn, STOP feeling guilty about USING Linux and certainly stop feeling guilty about asking for help, whether or not you eventually make a profit from the information is irrelevant.
Richard
A few years ago, someone tried telling me it was illegal to buy a computer without Windows loaded.
Wow, so this is the sort of nonsense that passes as common sense? No wonder it's taking so long to put a dent in mickeysoft's market share.
Joe
It's true. It is impossible to get people to change from using office with xp. They will not use vista either. Yeah. read it again. Somehow microsoft has instilled in them that this is the only way to write a document and send e-mails. They will _not_ change to Linux or vista. windows 98 is just fine however. They hate those superb cast iron IBM keyboards that we all love. They want proper plastic keyboards and a mouse with a wire. The menus are not in the right place in openoffice anyway they will tell you. They feel safe with xp and office. In the real world thats what there is. I'm dealing with housewives who do word processing on a part time basis. They simply cannot change. To them, Openoffice and Linux is a joke. Lynn x -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
primm wrote:
It's true. It is impossible to get people to change from using office with xp. They will not use vista either. Yeah. read it again. Somehow microsoft has instilled in them that this is the only way to write a document and send e-mails. They will _not_ change to Linux or vista. windows 98 is just fine however. They hate those superb cast iron IBM keyboards that we all love. They want proper plastic keyboards and a mouse with a wire. The menus are not in the right place in openoffice anyway they will tell you. They feel safe with xp and office. In the real world thats what there is. I'm dealing with housewives who do word processing on a part time basis. They simply cannot change. To them, Openoffice and Linux is a joke.
Lynn x
Seein' as how M$ isn't supporting XP anymore, what would happen if you had a hardware failure and *had* to install the latest 'offering' from M$ on new hardware? These housewives would be forced to learn new tricks, wouldn't they? Seems to me they should be given the opportunity sooner, rather than later, while you still have options. Once a real failure occurs, you lose data, have no time to learn new methods and 'where the right places' are for the menus and such becomes an emergency lesson in frustration. A machine old enough to be running XP is also old enough to start having mechanical failures (memory, disk, etc) so while the girls in the office may like the old coffee pot, when it fails, they will eventually accept the new Mr Coffee, even decide it makes better coffee after all. The joke will be on them when this all happens and you can prevent it by being calm, knowledgeable and assertive. Richard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
tricks, wouldn't they? Seems to me they should be given the opportunity sooner, rather than later, while you still have options. Once a real failure occurs, you lose data, have no time to learn new methods and 'where the right places' are for the menus and such becomes
I find the most successful is to sneak it up on them. Start with weaning them off of IE and onto Opera or Firefox. Then slowly introduce them to OpenOffice. The OpenOffice thing is going well, especially since Office2007 is so different, and OOo2.3 is so much faster to load, and looks a lot like OfficeXP. From there just find X-platform apps for them to use and get used to.. then one day... they will find themselves working in Linux :-) C -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Richard Creighton wrote:
primm wrote:
It's true. It is impossible to get people to change from using office with xp. They will not use vista either. Yeah. read it again. Somehow microsoft has instilled in them that this is the only way to write a document and send e-mails. They will _not_ change to Linux or vista. windows 98 is just fine however. They hate those superb cast iron IBM keyboards that we all love. They want proper plastic keyboards and a mouse with a wire. The menus are not in the right place in openoffice anyway they will tell you. They feel safe with xp and office. In the real world thats what there is. I'm dealing with housewives who do word processing on a part time basis. They simply cannot change. To them, Openoffice and Linux is a joke.
Lynn x
Seein' as how M$ isn't supporting XP anymore, what would happen if you had a hardware failure and *had* to install the latest 'offering' from M$ on new hardware? These housewives would be forced to learn new
<snip>
Richard
Actually, M$ have recently announced that they are extending support for XP, for some unknown reason people are not buying as many Vista copies as M$ expected :-) - -- ============================================================================== I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my telephone. Bjarne Stroustrup ============================================================================== -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFG/3NuasN0sSnLmgIRAn9wAJ4gs9tvC9WdaVaVRwktrar/70VMTACgvgec AYIWPHMlonlASna2kbfur+c= =LtY/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 30 September 2007 04:59:10 am G T Smith wrote:
Richard Creighton wrote:
primm wrote:
It's true. It is impossible to get people to change from using office with xp. They will not use vista either. Yeah. read it again. Somehow microsoft has instilled in them that this is the only way to write a document and send e-mails. They will _not_ change to Linux or vista. windows 98 is just fine however. They hate those superb cast iron IBM keyboards that we all love. They want proper plastic keyboards and a mouse with a wire. The menus are not in the right place in openoffice anyway they will tell you. They feel safe with xp and office. In the real world thats what there is. I'm dealing with housewives who do word processing on a part time basis. They simply cannot change. To them, Openoffice and Linux is a joke.
Lynn x
Seein' as how M$ isn't supporting XP anymore, what would happen if you had a hardware failure and *had* to install the latest 'offering' from M$ on new hardware? These housewives would be forced to learn new
<snip>
Richard
Actually, M$ have recently announced that they are extending support for XP, for some unknown reason people are not buying as many Vista copies as M$ expected :-)
Few hundreds reasons per product. Count is mostly 2 (Vista & MS Office) which comes out as one good computer upgrade (no monitor and accessories).
=========================================================================== I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my telephone.
Bjarne Stroustrup ===========================================================================
I felt free to pick up this one in: http://en.opensuse.org/Famous_quotes -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Actually, M$ have recently announced that they are extending support for XP, for some unknown reason people are not buying as many Vista copies as M$ expected :-)
Few hundreds reasons per product. Count is mostly 2 (Vista & MS Office) which comes out as one good computer upgrade (no monitor and accessories).
Actually, from what I've seen in articles around, Vista wants state-of-the-art equipment to run and much of the legacy equipment just doesn't seem to want to run and a lot of people are balking at having to buy new computers just to buy a new OS and it's new and improved bugs. One nice thing about Linux....so far... is that it historically allows people to almost run on their old 'junk' machines and still do useful work. I hope this doesn't change any time soon even as it supports the newer equipment, I hope the old boxes aren't forgotten. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Richard Creighton wrote:
Actually, M$ have recently announced that they are extending support for XP, for some unknown reason people are not buying as many Vista copies as M$ expected :-)
Few hundreds reasons per product. Count is mostly 2 (Vista & MS Office) which comes out as one good computer upgrade (no monitor and accessories).
Actually, from what I've seen in articles around, Vista wants state-of-the-art equipment to run and much of the legacy equipment just doesn't seem to want to run and a lot of people are balking at having to buy new computers just to buy a new OS and it's new and improved bugs. One nice thing about Linux....so far... is that it historically allows people to almost run on their old 'junk' machines and still do useful work. I hope this doesn't change any time soon even as it supports the newer equipment, I hope the old boxes aren't forgotten.
I fully aggree. But, as sad as it is, as a matter of fact, you cannot buy a new computer without vista anymore. There are exceptions and there are business machines that you still can order with XP, but in general, the new PC market "is vista". In consequence, within a year or two we will be living in a "mostly vista" world, whether we like it or not. Kind regards Eberhard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Eberhard Roloff wrote:
I fully aggree.
But, as sad as it is, as a matter of fact, you cannot buy a new computer without vista anymore. There are exceptions and there are business machines that you still can order with XP, but in general, the new PC market "is vista".
In consequence, within a year or two we will be living in a "mostly vista" world, whether we like it or not.
Actually, there are many vendors who will sell without Windows or with Linux installed. For example, there's one company, located near my home, that sells computers loaded with Linux or no OS, for less than the same system with Windows. There are also vendors that buy systems from manufacturers and put Linux on. And, we can't forget the local system builders, who build custom systems, often without Windows. Also, as I mentioned in another note, "refurbs" are often available for low cost and provided a good system to install Linux on. If they come with Windows, it'd likely be XP or 2000 and not Vista. http://www.angelcomputer.com -- Use OpenOffice.org <http://www.openoffice.org> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
James Knott wrote:
Actually, there are many vendors who will sell without Windows or with Linux installed. For example, there's one company, located near my home, that sells computers loaded with Linux or no OS, for less than the same system with Windows.
Indeed. Since we're "Microsoft Gold Partners" at work, we have no need to buy operating systems again when we purchase computers. (Our licensing includes everything we need from them.) We just bought a buttload of new HP development machines that came directly from HP with Linux (disguised as FreeDOS) on them, at a lower cost than if they'd come with Windows installed. The only annoying issue was that since they didn't have Windows on them, they didn't have any Windows DRIVERS on them either. I needed to download all of those from HP and figure out what to install on a system. Once I got it working, we ghosted it and built the rest of the machines from that image. I'd be willing to bet that the eventual move to Vista will make this sort of purchase even more common. We could just as easily have installed Linux on them instead of XP-Pro (but we create Windows-based commercial software). -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Richard Creighton wrote:
Actually, M$ have recently announced that they are extending support for XP, for some unknown reason people are not buying as many Vista copies as M$ expected :-)
Few hundreds reasons per product. Count is mostly 2 (Vista & MS Office) which comes out as one good computer upgrade (no monitor and accessories).
Actually, from what I've seen in articles around, Vista wants state-of-the-art equipment to run and much of the legacy equipment just doesn't seem to want to run and a lot of people are balking at having to buy new computers just to buy a new OS and it's new and improved bugs. One nice thing about Linux....so far... is that it historically allows people to almost run on their old 'junk' machines and still do useful work. I hope this doesn't change any time soon even as it supports the newer equipment, I hope the old boxes aren't forgotten.
I often tell people to pick up one of those cheap "refurbs" and put Linux on it. I have done so myself on several occasions. A 3 or 4 year old "off lease" business computer is plenty good enough for most people running Linux. -- Use OpenOffice.org <http://www.openoffice.org> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Richard Creighton wrote:
Actually, M$ have recently announced that they are extending support for XP, for some unknown reason people are not buying as many Vista copies as M$ expected :-)
Few hundreds reasons per product. Count is mostly 2 (Vista & MS Office) which comes out as one good computer upgrade (no monitor and accessories).
Actually, from what I've seen in articles around, Vista wants state-of-the-art equipment to run and much of the legacy equipment just doesn't seem to want to run and a lot of people are balking at having to buy new computers just to buy a new OS and it's new and improved bugs. One nice thing about Linux....so far... is that it historically allows people to almost run on their old 'junk' machines and still do useful work. I hope this doesn't change any time soon even as it supports the newer equipment, I hope the old boxes aren't forgotten.
There are quite a few organisations that have recently completed moving from NT to W2K, or have not moved to XP because W2k provides the functionality they need and seen no reason to change. What Vista provides does not really fit a lot of commercial environments, and until someone provides a commercial, must have, killer app that only runs on Vista, M$ is going to find it difficult to persuade commercial clients to adopt it. The costs in retraining staff, new equipment deployment, and migrating critical systems is causing some organisations to look very closely at alternative strategies; in the main completely rebuilding the IT infrastructure every 4 years or so does not make much sense to many (if it aint broke why fix it), M$ may have shot themselves in the foot and given desktop Linux in the enterprise an unintended boost at the same time. If they push upgrading too hard they could find some large organisations going elsewhere. On the other hand M$ may get wise and commit to a stable user interface that does not radically change between OS versions (my god! was that pig flying past :-) ).... In the non-commercial world Vista really depends on the future of the general purpose PC. Outside of more specialist niches such as power gaming and computer hobbyists, and SOHO use; an increased use of minimum maintenance and intervention consumer electronics products may begin to become more important over time and general purpose PC sales may stagnate or decline. Most non-technical people are completely fed up with machines which do not do what they want, when they want to do it, for reasons they do not understand (whether they be MS, Mac or Linux based)... eventually they will wise up and start voting with their wallets... - -- ============================================================================== I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my telephone. Bjarne Stroustrup ============================================================================== -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFG/60easN0sSnLmgIRAiurAKDfIQu3aIf0x/Q508UbOaP8Sy0zggCghnA6 Wv2kpIsXjeEnRMpGYAh9hSk= =znz6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Sunday 2007-09-30 at 08:51 -0400, Richard Creighton wrote:
Actually, from what I've seen in articles around, Vista wants state-of-the-art equipment to run and much of the legacy equipment just doesn't seem to want to run and a lot of people are balking at having to buy new computers just to buy a new OS and it's new and improved bugs. One nice thing about Linux....so far... is that it historically allows people to almost run on their old 'junk' machines and still do useful work. I hope this doesn't change any time soon even as it supports the newer equipment, I hope the old boxes aren't forgotten.
That's not quite so now. For instance, the limit on the number of partitions has been decreased from 64 to 16 (less than). That's one of the consequence of "progress" in the linux field. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFG/7HBtTMYHG2NR9URAo5+AJ9PRtKFwQkF8Cx90JGMY1HzZEmfWQCeORdH WgPm21dZU/zHtItdR0rB6Hg= =rLYZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
The Sunday 2007-09-30 at 08:51 -0400, Richard Creighton wrote:
Actually, from what I've seen in articles around, Vista wants state-of-the-art equipment to run and much of the legacy equipment just doesn't seem to want to run and a lot of people are balking at having to buy new computers just to buy a new OS and it's new and improved bugs. One nice thing about Linux....so far... is that it historically allows people to almost run on their old 'junk' machines and still do useful work. I hope this doesn't change any time soon even as it supports the newer equipment, I hope the old boxes aren't forgotten.
That's not quite so now. For instance, the limit on the number of partitions has been decreased from 64 to 16 (less than). That's one of the consequence of "progress" in the linux field.
- -- Cheers, Carlos E. R.
Someone made an ill-advised decision to change the naming scheme of IDE drives to be the same as the new SATA drives to be the same as SCSI. In the process, it inherited the limitations of the SCSI drives. I can't think of a reason for having done it, but it appears to have been done in all the distros. I suspect there will be a great gnashing of teeth when the next release hits the streets and some accomodation will be forthcoming. As one of the beta testers for upcoming 10.3 SuSE, it has already proven 'interesting' and caused me personally no end of frustration. Generally though, Linux's progress has kept pace with the newer hardware without losing sight of its historical past. This is one of the few exceptions so far. I bet that there is NO chance that XP, much less Vista will run on a 386 or a 286... I cranked up 10.2 on a 486DX-2 the other day just to see it run...slow, but it ran :) Richard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Richard Creighton wrote:
I cranked up 10.2 on a 486DX-2 the other day just to see it run...slow, but it ran :)
How exactly did you manage that? Have you got a 486-version of 10.2? I've got a 486DX2 machine running as firewall/gateway, but it's stuck on SuSE 7.1 - I would certainly be interested in getting it upgraded to 10.2. The 256Mb yast memory requirement might be a problem, but I'm sure I'll find a way around that. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Per Jessen wrote:
Richard Creighton wrote:
I cranked up 10.2 on a 486DX-2 the other day just to see it run...slow, but it ran :)
How exactly did you manage that? Have you got a 486-version of 10.2?
I've got a 486DX2 machine running as firewall/gateway, but it's stuck on SuSE 7.1 - I would certainly be interested in getting it upgraded to 10.2. The 256Mb yast memory requirement might be a problem, but I'm sure I'll find a way around that.
/Per Jessen, Zürich imho, for this machine, you are MUCH better off by using ipcop.
http://ipcop.org kind regards Eberhard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Eberhard Roloff wrote:
Per Jessen wrote:
I've got a 486DX2 machine running as firewall/gateway, but it's stuck on SuSE 7.1 - I would certainly be interested in getting it upgraded to 10.2. The 256Mb yast memory requirement might be a problem, but I'm sure I'll find a way around that.
/Per Jessen, Zürich
imho, for this machine, you are MUCH better off by using ipcop.
Hmm, interesting. Will ipcop run in 24Mb RAM ? It looks good I have to say. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- http://www.spamchek.com/ - your spam is our business. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Per Jessen wrote:
Eberhard Roloff wrote:
Per Jessen wrote:
I've got a 486DX2 machine running as firewall/gateway, but it's stuck on SuSE 7.1 - I would certainly be interested in getting it upgraded to 10.2. The 256Mb yast memory requirement might be a problem, but I'm sure I'll find a way around that.
/Per Jessen, Zürich
Per, I used:
addswap=-1 added to the splashscreen, as my lappy only has 192Mb of RAM -- Med venlig hilsen / Best regards Erik Jakobsen erik_ja@mail.tele.dk openSuSE 10.2 (i586) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Erik Jakobsen wrote:
Per Jessen wrote:
to 10.2. The 256Mb yast memory requirement might be a problem, but I'm sure I'll find a way around that.
/Per Jessen, Zürich
Per, I used:
addswap=-1
added to the splashscreen, as my lappy only has 192Mb of RAM
Yeah, I've done that too, but 192Mb is a lot more than just 24Mb ... :-) /Per Jessen, Zürich -- http://www.spamchek.com/ - your spam is our business. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Eberhard Roloff wrote:
Per Jessen wrote:
Richard Creighton wrote:
I cranked up 10.2 on a 486DX-2 the other day just to see it run...slow, but it ran :)
How exactly did you manage that? Have you got a 486-version of 10.2?
I've got a 486DX2 machine running as firewall/gateway, but it's stuck on SuSE 7.1 - I would certainly be interested in getting it upgraded to 10.2. The 256Mb yast memory requirement might be a problem, but I'm sure I'll find a way around that.
/Per Jessen, Zürich
imho, for this machine, you are MUCH better off by using ipcop.
kind regards Eberhard
This machine was a junker and I put a 'pull' drive that had an already installed minimum install of 10.2 and lo and behold, it actually ran. Don't ask me how :) I wasn't really expecting anything except maybe the bios (if I was lucky) messages. Would it have installed from a CD? Dunno, probably not but this was from a drive that already had an installation on it from earler experiments and a self-compiled kernel about a year ago, I guess. It only ran for about 10 min before it froze (heat) which is why I now remember I pulled it in the first place, but it was an interesting experiment non-the-less, and does illustrate the 'Linux runs on junk as well as modern machines'. Hell, Linux is running in my TIVO Direct-TV DVR right now and probably my washing machine :) I went through a McDonalds/Wendys/BurgerKing (don't wanna prejudice anyone) drive up ordering podium to place an order....It was running Windows...It had the Blue Screen of Death displayed....I laughed my (four letter word for posterior) off! I don't support that chain anymore :) Richard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Per Jessen wrote:
Richard Creighton wrote:
I cranked up 10.2 on a 486DX-2 the other day just to see it run...slow, but it ran :)
How exactly did you manage that? Have you got a 486-version of 10.2?
I've got a 486DX2 machine running as firewall/gateway, but it's stuck on SuSE 7.1 - I would certainly be interested in getting it upgraded to 10.2. The 256Mb yast memory requirement might be a problem, but I'm sure I'll find a way around that.
/Per Jessen, Zürich
This was a 'pull' from a machine I was playing with about a year ago with a self-compiled kernel. I stuck it into an old chassis with a 486 in it just to see what would happen, if anything, and suprised myself when it actually booted....not for long, alas, the reason the old chassis was sitting on the shelf suddenly was remembered....it dies after about 10min or so due to thermal problems. Maybe I should try and fix that and have a new toy :) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Per Jessen wrote:
Richard Creighton wrote:
I cranked up 10.2 on a 486DX-2 the other day just to see it run...slow, but it ran :)
How exactly did you manage that? Have you got a 486-version of 10.2?
I've got a 486DX2 machine running as firewall/gateway, but it's stuck on SuSE 7.1 - I would certainly be interested in getting it upgraded to 10.2. The 256Mb yast memory requirement might be a problem, but I'm sure I'll find a way around that.
/Per Jessen, Zürich
Now for a better answer to your question. In my opinion, I doubt that anyone could actually get a full 10.2 distro to install and run on anything less than a Pentium/AMD-K6 or some such processor now. Internally, these processors support subsets that include 386 code which of course the 486 also understands. So, the kernel can be compiled to run as a 386 and shun some of the Pentium centric code and should run just fine. It isn't the kernel that is the problem, it is all of the support software, multimedia, graphics, word processing, ad nausium, that we now take for granted and say 'that is 10.2' or that is SuSE or Kubuntu or whatever. It isn't. SuSE is a collection which includes Linux, as is Debian, or whatever distro you happen to like. It is the collection of support software that becomes the personality of the distribution and it is also the reason our old 486 machines won't run anymore. It is these neat packages of music, graphics, editors and what-not, that depend on instructions that the poor old 486 processor simply has no concept of. So while Linux itself can be compiled to run in a mode that is compatible with the old box, it is unlikely the rest of any modern distro will do so as well. However, remember, you are given the source code to much of the software you use and it *is* possible that if you put your mind to it, many programs might be coerced into a compatible mode and recompiled...not a chore for the faint of heart. Also, not a few of the packages include NON-OSS programs, which mean 'sorry Charlie' because the sources are not available. All this said however, I challange a user of VISTA or even XP to take its' kernel and boot on a 486...never mind all its bells and whistles, just the kernel....Linux users can, even a modern version. And when you get done with the Windows trial, you can have a boat anchor, and with the Linux box, you can have a router :) Richard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Richard Creighton wrote:
It is the collection of support software that becomes the personality of the distribution and it is also the reason our old 486 machines won't run anymore.
Uh, I'm not sure I can quite follow you. If the openSUSE project built the distro for the 386 instruction set, the old 486 machines would still work fine.
It is these neat packages of music, graphics, editors and what-not, that depend on instructions that the poor old 486 processor simply has no concept of.
If there is code containing 586 or 686 specific instructions, it obviously won't work on anything that does not have support for those. However, regular C code can be compiled not to use such instructions.
So while Linux itself can be compiled to run in a mode that is compatible with the old box, it is unlikely the rest of any modern distro will do so as well.
Actually, I think it's quite likely that openSUSE could.
I challange a user of VISTA or even XP to take its' kernel and boot on a 486...never mind all its bells and whistles, just the kernel....
I have a suspicion you might be surprised. There's probably still some OS2 stuff lurking around in Vista. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Per Jessen wrote:
Richard Creighton wrote:
It is the collection of support software that becomes the personality of the distribution and it is also the reason our old 486 machines won't run anymore.
Uh, I'm not sure I can quite follow you. If the openSUSE project built the distro for the 386 instruction set, the old 486 machines would still work fine.
However, I am pretty sure the project has not been built with that instruction set in mind. It would be an interesting exercise to try but I'm not sure there is enough demand for 386 only code to induce anyone to undertake such a huge project. All the libraries, as well as the programs themselves would have to be recompiled.
It is these neat packages of music, graphics, editors and what-not, that depend on instructions that the poor old 486 processor simply has no concept of.
If there is code containing 586 or 686 specific instructions, it obviously won't work on anything that does not have support for those. However, regular C code can be compiled not to use such instructions.
I think there are programs that won't convert very well, ones that utilize the MMX instructions for instance, or other 5-686 extensions to the 386 instruction set. Alternative code could be written but it isn't just a matter of just setting a compiler switch I don't think.
So while Linux itself can be compiled to run in a mode that is compatible with the old box, it is unlikely the rest of any modern distro will do so as well.
Actually, I think it's quite likely that openSUSE could.
Even if you are right about the OSS portion of the openSuSE distro, what would you propose about the NON-OSS portion of the distro? Stuff like Firefox or Thunderbird or ... well, you name it. If the source code isn't available, how do you propose to make that run on the 486? Hey, I'm all for it but I really don't think it is very likely in practice, as much as I hate to admit it. I'm an old fogey and I, like my old 486 machine, am a relic of the past and would like to feel useful well into the future, but I know time marches on so I am thankful that Linux will run on as old and varied equipment as it does and I am also glad that it will run on some of the most modern equipment available too.
I challange a user of VISTA or even XP to take its' kernel and boot on a 486...never mind all its bells and whistles, just the kernel....
I have a suspicion you might be surprised. There's probably still some OS2 stuff lurking around in Vista.
I never accused Microsoft of being inventive or original but I'm sure that they have modified the original OS/2 code they got from IBM enough so that it will no longer run on a 486 :) Richard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Richard Creighton wrote:
Uh, I'm not sure I can quite follow you. If the openSUSE project built the distro for the 386 instruction set, the old 486 machines would still work fine.
However, I am pretty sure the project has not been built with that instruction set in mind.
That's true, the Pentium CPU was made the minimum requirement somewhere around 9.x IIRC. Maybe even 8.x, I'm not sure.
It would be an interesting exercise to try but I'm not sure there is enough demand for 386 only code to induce anyone to undertake such a huge project. All the libraries, as well as the programs themselves would have to be recompiled.
That's only a matter of compute time, so not really a big deal. Maybe the openSUSE build service could used.
So while Linux itself can be compiled to run in a mode that is compatible with the old box, it is unlikely the rest of any modern distro will do so as well.
Actually, I think it's quite likely that openSUSE could.
Even if you are right about the OSS portion of the openSuSE distro, what would you propose about the NON-OSS portion of the distro? Stuff like Firefox or Thunderbird or ... well, you name it.
Aren't FF and TB open-source ?? If we're talking binary packages not built for the 386 instruction set, it's pretty obvious that there's nothing we can do. But, there is probably a good chance that binary-only packages are built for the 386 instruction set anyway. I think the Adobe Acrobat reader is for instance.
Hey, I'm all for it but I really don't think it is very likely in practice, as much as I hate to admit it.
Oh, I doubt it too. 486s are now found mostly in embedded stuff, and there are other distros catering for that market. My own 486 firewall machine runs fine on 7.1 with updates and patches for openssl, iptables, and the kernel. And like someone already said, there are almost certainly better distros for that. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Per Jessen wrote:
Hey, I'm all for it but I really don't think it is very likely in practice, as much as I hate to admit it.
Oh, I doubt it too. 486s are now found mostly in embedded stuff, and there are other distros catering for that market. My own 486 firewall machine runs fine on 7.1 with updates and patches for openssl, iptables, and the kernel. And like someone already said, there are almost certainly better distros for that.
/Per Jessen, Zürich
Per, my original assertion was that with M$'s current 'stuff', there is no chance. It is really nice to know that with Linux, even if you own and use a dinosaur 486 or 386 box, you can use Linux and with a little work even have some relatively modern programs to run on it simply because it is OSS and you *can* invest the time and compile it to run on your hardware. This is so unlike the welded shut offerings from M$. Your experience with 7.1 and my blind luck with 10.2 proves Linux is ultimately the right way. What I hope and pray doesn't happen is that those that make the decisions don't forget the roots and start making more changes that obsolete older equipment just because it is older equipment. Change, for change sake is not always the best route. The recent 'upgrade' of IDE to be included in SCSI naming and specification schemes along with SATA drives is a case in point. My system has still not recovered from that...but that is another story.... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Richard Creighton wrote:
What I hope and pray doesn't happen is that those that make the decisions don't forget the roots and start making more changes that obsolete older equipment just because it is older equipment.
Couldn't agree more.
Change, for change sake is not always the best route. The recent 'upgrade' of IDE to be included in SCSI naming and specification schemes along with SATA drives is a case in point. My system has still not recovered from that...but that is another story....
That one has yet to bite me - but as we're mostly SCSI anyway, it might not have much impact :-) /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Monday 2007-10-01 at 17:51 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
That one has yet to bite me - but as we're mostly SCSI anyway, it might not have much impact :-)
No, the majority of machines probably are SATA or PATA, not really SCSI. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFHAVCRtTMYHG2NR9URAk34AJ49XugdYH7HtQFSsWur1rvB5rZmJgCfULOe dnNFtCbDH0NRWIbyF44OKiE= =Q7kI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
2007/10/1, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net>:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
The Monday 2007-10-01 at 17:51 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
That one has yet to bite me - but as we're mostly SCSI anyway, it might not have much impact :-)
No, the majority of machines probably are SATA or PATA, not really SCSI.
Don't worry, we already received your mail twice ;) Best regards. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Monday 2007-10-01 at 17:21 -0300, Gabriel . wrote:
Don't worry, we already received your mail twice ;)
Not everybody, I hope ;-) - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFHAWintTMYHG2NR9URAlO2AJ4rJ3FoECvZmEI8YzbjEkHF3Ef1rQCgg+Oe GE+GYIrypHGcPb3lX4EAoJE= =ZNao -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 30 September 2007 07:51:20 am Richard Creighton wrote:
Actually, M$ have recently announced that they are extending support for XP, for some unknown reason people are not buying as many Vista copies as M$ expected :-)
Few hundreds reasons per product. Count is mostly 2 (Vista & MS Office) which comes out as one good computer upgrade (no monitor and accessories).
Actually, from what I've seen in articles around, Vista wants state-of-the-art equipment to run and much of the legacy equipment just doesn't seem to want to run and a lot of people are balking at having to buy new computers just to buy a new OS and it's new and improved bugs. One nice thing about Linux....so far... is that it historically allows people to almost run on their old 'junk' machines and still do useful work. I hope this doesn't change any time soon even as it supports the newer equipment, I hope the old boxes aren't forgotten.
'Junk machine' is for a quite some time relative denomination. Every machine is good in a store, but with software accessories like firewall, antivirus, antispam, and few other programs, that one adds at home, it is no more good. The malware scanners need more and more time to scan new bigger hard drives, which takes more and more CPU time. OS that doesn't require such add-ons is big advantage for computer users. More CPU cycles is left for usefull work, so 'junk machine' using other OS is good machine under Linux, just because there is no need to keep 'patch' programs running all the time. The antivirus etc, is not alone at fault for CPU being busy with basic OS tasks, instead to run user application. More device drivers are actually firmware, and they are running on main CPU. To ensure proper function of device on wide variety of hardware, they claim more resources on newer, faster computers than it is necessary for the task. The list is quite long. Just created: http://en.opensuse.org/Why_to_use_openSUSE welcome to expand it. -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 09/30/2007 Richard Creighton wrote:
Seein' as how M$ isn't supporting XP anymore, what would happen if you had a hardware failure and *had* to install the latest 'offering' from M$ on new hardware?
M$ said they would support XP till 2010. -- (o:]>*HUGGLES*<[:o) Billie Walsh The three best words in the English Language: "I LOVE YOU" Pass them on! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Billie Walsh wrote:
On 09/30/2007 Richard Creighton wrote:
Seein' as how M$ isn't supporting XP anymore, what would happen if you had a hardware failure and *had* to install the latest 'offering' from M$ on new hardware?
M$ said they would support XP till 2010.
I think he's referring to it not being available on a new computer. That was recently extended to the end ofnext June, as Vista is not selling well. http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,2190228,00.asp http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,2189917,00.asp -- Use OpenOffice.org <http://www.openoffice.org> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, 2007-09-30 at 09:51 -0500, Billie Walsh wrote:
On 09/30/2007 Richard Creighton wrote:
M$ said they would support XP till 2010.
Translated, that means: worms and viri aimed at XP will be written at least 'till 2010 ;) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Hans Witvliet wrote:
On Sun, 2007-09-30 at 09:51 -0500, Billie Walsh wrote:
On 09/30/2007 Richard Creighton wrote:
M$ said they would support XP till 2010.
Translated, that means: worms and viri aimed at XP will be written at least 'till 2010 ;)
...just think of all the people that would be put out of work if all these worms didn't exist....I mean, Panda, McAffee, Norton....well, the list goes on :) I'm sure these companies and others like them are happy to hear of Microsoft's benevolent move. It also gives time to properly develop worms and viri for whatever Vista evolves into :) ... just in case the old XP ones don't work for some reason....like a lot of the programs. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Sat, 29 Sep 2007, by james.knott@rogers.com:
Richard Creighton wrote:
What a world Microsoft has created! It makes honest people *think* they are thieves!!!!
Lynn, STOP feeling guilty about USING Linux and certainly stop feeling guilty about asking for help, whether or not you eventually make a profit from the information is irrelevant.
Richard
A few years ago, someone tried telling me it was illegal to buy a computer without Windows loaded.
That was nonsence of course, but for the large PC manufacturers it certainly was 'illegal' to /sell/ PCs without paying MS for a license, whether they would (pre)install the crapware or not. Afaik this is no longer the case however, at least not in Europe. Theo -- Theo v. Werkhoven Registered Linux user# 99872 http://counter.li.org ICBM 52 13 26N , 4 29 47E. + ICQ: 277217131 SUSE 10.2 + Jabber: muadib@jabber.xs4all.nl Kernel 2.6.20 + See headers for PGP/GPG info. Claimer: any email I receive will become my property. Disclaimers do not apply. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
The last SuSE license I read was for the retail copy of 10.1 and it said something to the effect that copies could be given away, but not sold (or given away as part of something else that is sold, such as a free OS on a retail computer). This may be where you got the idea that it was illegal to make money with SuSE. //begin-rant Now, with regards to the usage of the word "illegal". Not to nit-pick anyone here, but the misuse of this word really bugs me. Illegal means against the law and it implies that cops are going to show up to arrest you. Contracts and license agreements are not law. If you break the license agreement, Novell might sue you or they might never sell you software again, but cops aren't going to show up at your door. Same goes for the "illegal" computers sold without a copy of Windows. That's a brilliant move on Microsoft's part. Not only convince the manufacturers to put Windows on every computer, but to also get the salespeople to convince everyone else that the computer with Linux on it is somehow breaking the law. That Linux users are criminals and will soon be arrested! //end-rant -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Jeremy Figgins wrote: <snip>
//begin-rant That's a brilliant move on Microsoft's part. Not only convince the manufacturers to put Windows on every computer, but to also get the salespeople to convince everyone else that the computer with Linux on it is somehow breaking the law. That Linux users are criminals and will soon be arrested! //end-rant
Brilliant move, absolutely, ethical, absolutely not. When this set a perfectly innocent young lady into fits of guilt thinking that she was doing something illegal just asking for information in this forum because of the mindset induced buy the 'brilliant move', I have to draw the line and say enough is enough. Linux is the vehicle, our way out of that mindset because it allows and encourages freedom to use and distribute the software for the machine owners benefit, not for some corporate giant that has made a brilliant marketing move. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sat September 29 2007, James Knott scratched these words onto a coconut shell, hoping for an answer:
Richard Creighton wrote:
What a world Microsoft has created! It makes honest people *think* they are thieves!!!!
Lynn, STOP feeling guilty about USING Linux and certainly stop feeling guilty about asking for help, whether or not you eventually make a profit from the information is irrelevant.
Richard
A few years ago, someone tried telling me it was illegal to buy a computer without Windows loaded.
Yup, I also had some alleged engineer, tell me the machine could not boot w/o an autoexec.bat.. that was clearly not true, I booted the machine in front of him, several times. I kept telling him there was NO autoexec.bat and he just wouldn't believe it. that was Os/2 He also was certain that there had to be something wrong w/ the boot sequence.. it didn't boot Windows, or ask or show some weird window that basically would have been a boot manager. I have since had similar problems w/ ppl claiming to be people w college degrees in computer science, who haven't seen any OS except windows.. it's just weird. As everyone else has said, jump in and splash around.. If you think its' getting too deep, just send up a flare. We will try to help. But one caveat.. if you post something, and don't get an answer, you aren't being ignored.. chances are no one who saw your post knew the answer... And those who knew the answer weren't online that day.. just post it again. And use google to find a lot of things that sound like they are a joke. because they, for instance , allow you to use your own music on various bits of hardware.. you don't lose the music or art because you don't have it on your mp3/ogg-vorbis player.. -- j I've lived in the real world enough, we're all here because we ain't all there. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
participants (19)
-
Billie Walsh -
Carlos E. R. -
Clayton -
Eberhard Roloff -
Erik Jakobsen -
G T Smith -
Gabriel . -
Hans Witvliet -
James Knott -
Jeremy Figgins -
Jerry Houston -
jfweber＠gilweber.com -
joe -
Per Jessen -
primm -
Rajko M. -
Richard Creighton -
Richard Creighton -
Theo v. Werkhoven