On 2006/11/04 00:20 (GMT-0900) John Andersen apparently typed:

On Saturday 04 November 2006 00:03, Clayton wrote:

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If you're used to SUSE, you're going to find pretty much every other distro highly annoying or at the minimum, missing some of those features you're used to like... YAST.

You will find some differences in other Distros, but few of them rise to the level of annoying, unless you are annoyed at having to learn anything new.

In annoyances, to each his own. Among some more popular distros, I find [edu,ku,u,xu]buntu 2nd most annoyingly different, fedora most annoying, and Mandriva least different.

As for those features in Yast, its nice but not essential. Ubuntu manages to accomplish all those same tasks.

One major annoyance from ubuntu - it's a debian. If you've never used a debian before, there'll be plenty to relearn, because there are some significant differences. Adept is inept, and synaptic isn't a whole lot better. Good thing it has apt. If you use Matrox, don't switch now. Some squeeky wheels don't seem able to squeek loud enough. Edgy broke Matrox, and there's been no apparent attention given it by developers since the break happened over a month before edgy's release. Fedora seems to have no aversion to releasing version upgrades among updates. That's a double edged sword that fits its bleeding edge personality. If you multiboot, you may find fedora's use of a non-standard menu file an annoyance. I just installed FC5 yesterday on an i815 video system. Even after updates tty[1-6] are all haywire. Even though I deselected gnome and selected kde during (text, as gui installer wouldn't work) install, gdm was overriding kdm. Gdm had to be removed for the changes I made to kdmrc to be applied. I selected mc for installation during install, but the installer didn't install it. Something else to consider is support forums. Ubuntu's mailing list and irc channels seem to have a poor ratio of questions asked to questions competently answered ratio. Fedora's have a huge volume to sift through. Except for the recent flood of Novell/M$ announcement fallout, this and the opensuse list have been pretty good. Mandriva's are good too. -- "Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven." Matthew 5:12 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/

On 2006/11/04 09:58 (GMT-0900) John Andersen apparently typed:

On Saturday 04 November 2006 05:43, Felix Miata wrote:

Thanks for your evaluations, some of which I agree with, some not.

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Adept is inept, and synaptic isn't a whole lot better.

Cute phrase, but hardly accurate.

I stand by my statement: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-users/2006-June/080598.html

Apt Adept and synaptic all work far better, far faster and far more user friendly than the current rug/zypp/zum mess in SuSE which pushes updates to you without even telling you why, or giving a synopsis of the change list.

I don't try to compare anything to the mess that is SUSE 10.1 package management. In Factory, Smart seems oblivious to the problems with SUSE's confusing flagship package management schemes. -- "Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven." Matthew 5:12 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/

On Saturday 04 November 2006 10:09 pm, Geoffrey wrote:

John Andersen wrote:

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On Saturday 04 November 2006 00:03, Clayton wrote:

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If you're used to SUSE, you're going to find pretty much every other distro highly annoying or at the minimum, missing some of those features you're used to like... YAST.

You will find some differences in other Distros, but few of them rise to the level of annoying, unless you are annoyed at having to learn anything new.

As for those features in Yast, its nice but not essential. Ubuntu manages to accomplish all those same tasks.

The latest Mandriva (2007) is pretty nice, although, even as a Silver Member of the Mandriva Club, I've not been able to update it. Seems they're having a problem with their update process. Sound familar?

--

Why only the latest version? I had tried the Mandrake 10.0 and then Mandriva Limited Edition 2005. The system broke completely on a upgrade. Bye Bye Mandriva since then! Regards, Amit. -- Remember fellas, what we do in life echoes in eternity!

Geoffrey wrote:

Oh, so I should say bye bye to SuSE because of the broken update in 10.2??

That should have said 10.1... -- Until later, Geoffrey Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. - Benjamin Franklin

Clayton wrote:

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Color me gone. The Question is where? Red Hat, Mandriva, Ubuntu? Any suggestions?

SUSE 10.2 is a good start. Looks great. Seems to be heading the right way.

If you're used to SUSE, you're going to find pretty much every other distro highly annoying or at the minimum, missing some of those features you're used to like... YAST.

Why cut and run? It's not over yet. Just because Novell signed a deal with MS doesn't make your existing SUSE install stop working, nor does it "pollute" your existing install. Let the dust settle, and I'll bet you that this is the same tinfoil hat waving and gnashing of teeth that has happened dozens of times in SUSE's history.

If you drop SUSE, fine... nice having you here while you were here, but you're basing your decision on emotion and NOT facts. Or, are you basing your decision on the baseless ramblings of the fouty-eleven bloggers who all pretend to know it all, but in reality know nothing... and are simply cashing in on the sensationalization of the event.

Geez.. will everyone just take a pill and get back to reality...

C.

I would like to thank Clayton for his clear, concise and rational approach to the dialogue here which I agree with. I would also like to see the MS/BS topic moved to another group as I joined this one to follow and learn technical issues which I appreciate.

On Saturday 04 November 2006 21:38, M Harris wrote:

On Saturday 04 November 2006 10:29, Robert Lewis wrote:

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I would also like to see the MS/BS topic moved to another group as I joined this one to follow and learn technical issues which I appreciate.

... but the name of the list may change in the future...... um, VistuSE-linux-e ??

That's gonna cause me nightmares for the next week! -- Calling an illegal alien an 'undocumented worker', is like calling a home intruder an 'unwanted houseguest'.

On Saturday 04 November 2006 03:27, Darryl Gregorash wrote:

On 2006-11-04 03:04, Basil Chupin wrote:

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Kenneth Rhodes wrote:

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Color me gone. The Question is where? Red Hat, Mandriva, Ubuntu? Any suggestions?

Xandros, the Canadian product, might just be the way to go.

Be bold, LinuxFromScratch :-)

Unfortunately undoable unless one has a big pipe connection <sigh>. I'd sure like to do it though, but extreme rural life makes fast connections improbable at the moment. -- Calling an illegal alien an 'undocumented worker', is like calling a home intruder an 'unwanted houseguest'.

On 2006/11/04 20:04 (GMT+1100) Basil Chupin apparently typed:

Kenneth Rhodes wrote:

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Color me gone. The Question is where? Red Hat, Mandriva, Ubuntu? Any suggestions?

Xandros, the Canadian product, might just be the way to go.

I haven't installed v4 yet, but Xandros 3 is a single CD product dependant on the anachronism that is lilo, and a proprietary version of lilo at that. It's very nice, but odds are it'll be short a lot of choices you're used to from any DVD product. -- "Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven." Matthew 5:12 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/

On Saturday 04 November 2006 03:41, Amit Joshi wrote:

Caeser

Keiser is more like Emperor (Empereur, Imperator, Imperatore, Император, Цар, Царь, etc). Caesar was part of Roman emperors title, just as Augustus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesar_(title). Interesting so many words are translations for Keiser and only one word is for SUSE. -- Regards, Rajko M.

On Saturday 04 November 2006 07:21, Amit Joshi wrote:

On 11/4/06, Rajko M wrote:

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On Saturday 04 November 2006 03:41, Amit Joshi wrote:

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Caeser

Keiser is more like Emperor (Empereur, Imperator, Imperatore, Император, Цар, Царь, etc). Caesar was part of Roman emperors title, just as Augustus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesar_(title)<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Caesar_%28title%29> .

Interesting so many words are translations for Keiser and only one word is for SUSE.

huh??

SuSE is the German acronym for 'Software und System Entwicklung' (Software and System Development) for all of you fellas who don't know. :)

Hi Amit. Just a kind of compliment to SUSE :-) We have only one word for SUSE in all languages, and each language has it's own word for emperor. What is better in your opinion. Acronym for 'Software und System Entwicklung' is here too http://en.opensuse.org/Acronyms#S :-) BTW, if you feel that you have to go elswhere, there is quite a bit to try. You can start from the top of the list on: http://distrowatch.com/ -- Regards, Rajko M.

Rajko M wrote:

On Saturday 04 November 2006 03:41, Amit Joshi wrote:

...

Caeser

Keiser is more like Emperor (Empereur, Imperator, Imperatore, Император, Цар, Царь, etc). Caesar was part of Roman emperors title, just as Augustus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesar_(title).

Interesting so many words are translations for Keiser and only one word is for SUSE.

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=Caesar -- Until later, Geoffrey Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. - Benjamin Franklin

On Sunday 05 November 2006 08:52, Matt T. wrote:

Hmmm, STOW comes to my mind, proposed here at theh time when Hubert Mantel left. STOW = SuSE The Original Way

Ha! And where is it then? Even building a refactored liveCD is a major job in itself. Do you have any idea of how difficult and time-consuming it would be to maintain all the stuff you get in SUSE so that you get a similarly high-quality distro? (For example, the out-of-the-box test install of Mandriva 2007 I did a couple of weeks ago had an Audacity that crashed randomly, so their QC is obviously as good as ever - in all the seven years I've been using SUSE, I don't think that has happened once.) Ask Pascal Bleser how long it takes him to do all the cool rpms he does, and he doesn't have to build the base system (which one of the Andreases just suggested was being worked on round the clock by the SUSE guys right now). What you're saying is just an joke. Get real. -- Pob hwyl / Best wishes Kevin Donnelly www.kyfieithu.co.uk - KDE yn Gymraeg www.eurfa.org.uk - Geiriadur rhydd i'r Gymraeg www.rhedadur.org.uk - Rhedeg berfau Cymraeg www.cymrux.org.uk - Linux Cymraeg ar un CD

On Monday 06 November 2006 01:33, Matt T. wrote:

So STOW = "SuSE The Original Way" would be to continue SuSE as it was before selling to Novell.

You can't use a 3+ year-old distro (Novell bought SUSE 3 years ago) without it being upgraded re packages (eg kernel) and security. To do that requires a lot of time, energy, commitment and (yes) money. So this idea, and the idea of a "fork", are really non-starters. SUSE 9.2 was indeed very good, *at that time*. -- Pob hwyl / Best wishes Kevin Donnelly www.kyfieithu.co.uk - KDE yn Gymraeg www.eurfa.org.uk - Geiriadur rhydd i'r Gymraeg www.rhedadur.org.uk - Rhedeg berfau Cymraeg www.cymrux.org.uk - Linux Cymraeg ar un CD

Per, On Monday 06 November 2006 01:54, Per Qvindesland wrote:

Uhuu why would that cost time and money, well I can agree on the time thingy do but it's do-able for sure that's how 90% out of all distros today have been started Centos as a perfect example to this, built upon RHEL but modified and developed with a lot of TLC, but yeah it could be done.

Well, if the workers can get free food, clothing, housing, etc., then no, it does not cost money to maintain a distribution. Very few people are independently wealthy and must either be paid for the work they do or give it a low priority, especially w.r.t. their paid work. And, of course, there's the requisite computing infrastructure, computers, mass storage, high-capacity Internet connections, electric power, etc. Only some of that can come from services like SourceForge. It's easy to underestimate the work of putting together a distribution, even if it includes only 100% FLOSS code and nothing locally developed (if it's even possible to put out a distribution that way).

Regards Per

Randall Schulz

Matt, On Monday 06 November 2006 17:39, Matt T. wrote:

On Monday 06 November 2006 21:49, Randall R Schulz wrote:

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Per,

On Monday 06 November 2006 01:54, Per Qvindesland wrote:

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Uhuu why would that cost time and money, well I can agree on the time thingy do but it's do-able for sure that's how 90% out of all distros today have been started Centos as a perfect example to this, built upon RHEL but modified and developed with a lot of TLC, but yeah it could be done.

...

Of course it requires a considerable amount of manpower and directly or indirectly a considerable amount of money. Nobody is questioning that.

Per, the person to whom I responded, clearly was "questioning that," unless I badly misunderstood his words (full quote above):

...

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... why would that cost time and money, well I can agree on the time thingy do but it's do-able for sure ...

The same is true for the Linux kernel, for KDE, for Gimp, for OpenOffice, for Mozilla, for Amarok, for k3b, for Quanta, for Mepis, Linspire/Freespire, Kubuntu, Centos, etc etc etc etc.

And still these projects do exist, and provide excellent products, with and without external money pumped in.

Enough key SuSE people left Novell, it is not impossible to continue SuSE The Original Way.

Just look what's happening now with Mandriva and the Mandrake founder...

So if there would be a STOW, well, I would buy the STOW box, and contribute that way and with testing and comments, as I did with SuSE / Novell.

Linux distributions may operate under different economic models, but there is still an economy of open-source software. There are manifold expenses and the world of Linux can sustain only a limited number of distributions. And there's an even tighter limit on the number of distruibutions in the SuSE model, by which I mean high-end ones with large package counts and strong support for administrative tasks, ongoing updates with prompt availability new releases and fixes for bugs and security issues. I'm not saying it cannot be done, but it's going to take a serious commitment of time and mon by many individuals over an extended period of time. So while it is possible, I'm not going to hold my breath. As I mentioned elsewhere for different reasons, if SuSE really does drop the ball, one way or another, then of course I'll move on. But I don't want to because I've been with it for a long time and would just as soon stay with it. There's an investment on my part of time (gaining knowledge) and money. And as we all know, SuSE Linux has attributes not found in other distrbutions. Everything in technology (some would say everything in life) involves tradeoffs. I'm not saying I'm sticking with SuSE no matter what, but the down-sides will have to outweigh those of competing distributions before I'll jump ship. And while I don't care for Microsoft at all and avoid it and their products as much as possible, I am personally not willing to be fanatical about it and turn away from SuSE just because Novell entered into an agreement with them. Time will tell whether or not this is a pernicious development or a beneficial one. I'm waiting to see. There's a podcast that I think many people (pretty much all people, really) could benefit from. It's produced by the Princeton Review and applies logic as it is tested in the LSAT (Law School Admission Test) to matters of everday life take from current events. I encourage people to subscribe (it's free) and listen to the approximately weekly editions: http://www.princetonreview.com/podcasts/lsat.asp I bring this up, because there's a great lack of proper reasoning manifest on these lists, and since this is all about technology, it's somewhat sad to see illogical thinking and argument so rife in discussions here. Randall Schulz