On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 12:34, Will Stephenson wrote:

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Question... did you clear off the 4.3.5 settings and start "fresh" with a default 4.4.1 config? or did you try to "reuse" the old 4.3.5 settings.  That's about the only thing I can think of that I've done on all systems that are running 4.4.1 (laptops and desktops).

That really shouldn't be necessary in production systems; backward compatibility is designed into the KDE config system.  If it is broken for an app, that's just a bug.

No argument at all... it's unfortunately been a known "fix" for a while though, and I do that on all KDE4 installs I do right now... install 4.3.1, upgrade to 4.4.1 and toast the config file. If I do that, KDE4.4.1 works beautifully on all systems I have it running on. Is it broken... yup... is it a bug... yup... and it is annoying... C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 12:58, Will Stephenson wrote:

It's a workaround for you, but (standard plaintive developer spiel follows) using a workaround without reporting the bugs breaks the feedback cycle, and eventually nobody knows that from KDE 2 onwards you could keep the same config around and your settings would be migrated by the apps.  Yes, this has been also weakened by a minority developers of some apps who have not given enough attention to making backward config compatibility work, but generally the system works, so don't let it fall apart.

Agreed 100%... but this isn't a workaround I discovered by accident... it's been discussed ad-naseum here on the mailing list as a solution to any KDE4 weirdness after a significant version update. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 26 March 2010 11:15, C wrote:

On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 11:46, Vadym Krevs wrote:

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So yesterday I've decided to take the plunge and upgrade my openSUSE 11.2/x86_64 box from KDE 4.3.5 to KDE 4.4.1 from OBS factory desktop/community/playground repos for openSUSE 11.2.

I've been running 4.4.1 trouble free for a long time.

Lucky you. I wish I had the same experience with KDE 4.4.1.

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1. Immediately after login, various nepomuk/aconadi/strigi/virtuso-t services tool over my machine and for 15 minutes there was no was to do anything at all due to CPU/IO usage caused by these. Lots of users complained about this in the past, and yet nothing's done to make this an on-demand activity.

You can turn it off in the options.

The whole point is that one should not have to turn it off - IMHO, there should've been an option to turn it on by default, so people do not have to automatically lose control of their machines after login.

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2. The  new konsole is simply not usable. It fails to render many fixed width fonts, is very slow to resize, etc. A quick search on

Odd... Konsole works perfect here.  I've not observed that behavior at all... on multiple 4.4.1 installs.  I use Konsole all the time...

Strange too.. I looked at the bug report... and I'm using it on systems with Intel and nVidia... no problems. On the nVidia systems, I'm using the 195.30 driver right now... don't know if that's relevant?  Also, I'm using monospaced 8pt font... so at least on one 4.4.1 install it's working fine.

Again, the key issue here is that konsole worked just fine, absolutely zero problems, under KDE 4.3.5, same xorg, same video drivers, etc. The problem appeared after upgrade to KDE 4.4.x, hence it is a regression.

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3. The first time Konqueror started and I attempted to enter text into the search box, suddenly the search box (and all text boxes/drop downs/combox in all running KDE apps, not just konqueror!!!) became several times taller. I did try to log off, restart KDE, and log back on, and the issue came back almost instantly.

Same as my Konsole comment... I haven't seen this on multiple installs of 4.4.1 either.

...

So after all this, I went back to KDE 4.3.5, and within half an hour I had a working and stable desktop again. I really hate to saying this, but there is no way KDE 4.4.1 is viable upgrade from KDE 4.3.5.

Question... did you clear off the 4.3.5 settings and start "fresh" with a default 4.4.1 config? or did you try to "reuse" the old 4.3.5 settings.  That's about the only thing I can think of that I've done on all systems that are running 4.4.1 (laptops and desktops).

Of course I didn't. Am I being so unreasonable to assume that it is ridiculous to expect users to discard all their preferences and customizations when upgrading from one KDE release to another? I could buy that argument when upgrading from KDE3 to KDE4, but there is no excuse for that now. KDE 4.4.x ought to offer a seamless upgrade experience for any KDE 4.3.5 user, otherwise what's the point?

In fact I'm confident enough in 4.4.1 that I've installed it on computers that are being used by people who have pretty much zero computer skills, and they are doing very well, and actually like KDE4.4.1...

C.

Regards, Vadym -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

OK, the problems reported here got me thinking, and wondering... did I do something different or tweak something I forgot... so, I took my netbook (Asus Eee 1005 with 2GB Ram and intel 945 GME video - this is NOT a high spec machine, so any resource intensive things are VERY noticeable) and wiped the drive clean and did a fresh install of openSUSE 11.2. I ran it for a while on KDE4.3.1, setting up the desktop etc. (eg turning off desktop effects) Then I did a full update to KDE 4.3.5... again running it for a while, changing some desktop options etc. The next step was updating to 4.4.1 via the 1-Click link on the oS WIki. This popped up a load of conflict resolution errors that were resolved by changing vendor. Then I skimmed through the installed apps, and picked up a few KDE4.3.5 that needed to be manually added to the list of updates to 4.4.1. I also removed QT3 (was installed by default on the initial I guess). The update ran, and then I rebooted (I know no need to reboot, but.. I did just to be sure everything was clear and started up properly). In this upgrade path, I did NOT remove the config files (as I suggested might be the solution in a previous reply). I left the config in place through each version upgrade. On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 12:38, Vadym Krevs wrote:

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...

1. Immediately after login, various nepomuk/aconadi/strigi/virtuso-t services tool over my machine and for 15 minutes there was no was to do anything at all due to CPU/IO usage caused by these. Lots of users complained about this in the past, and yet nothing's done to make this an on-demand activity.

You can turn it off in the options.

The whole point is that one should not have to turn it off  -  IMHO, there should've been an option to turn it on by default, so people do not have to automatically lose control of their machines after login.

After restarting, Nepomuk was NOT running by default. I did not turn it off in the 4.3.1 and 4.3.5 configurations. I enabled it in the desktop options, and it started indexing for the first time. The CPU load bounces around while it's indexing, but it does not overload my hardware such that I cannot use it, but it does definitely put some load on the system - but since in my testing it was off by default... it's not really a problem I would think. Note, the hardware is not high spec on this test I just did (Intel Atom 270 CPU and 2GB Ram). Why is it on by default with some people's installs and on others it's off?

...

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2. The  new konsole is simply not usable. It fails to render many fixed width fonts, is very slow to resize, etc. A quick search on

I tested Konsole over and over trying to trigger this problem, or see some evidence of it happening. Konsole is currently set to use Monospace 8 font, and Linux Colors (Black background, and light grey font). I can resize the Konsole to any size and it's very very fast. No problems at all.

Again, the key issue here is that konsole worked just fine, absolutely zero problems, under KDE 4.3.5, same xorg, same video drivers, etc. The problem appeared after upgrade to KDE 4.4.x, hence it is a regression.

But.. on what? I cannot dpulicate this in my tests. Konsole works 100% as expected in 4.3.1, 4.3.5 and 4.4.1. If it's a regression... where is the regression.

...

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3. The first time Konqueror started and I attempted to enter text into the search box, suddenly the search box (and all text boxes/drop downs/combox in all running KDE apps, not just konqueror!!!) became several times taller. I did try to log off, restart KDE, and log back on, and the issue came back almost instantly.

I tested this too. I started up Konqueror in each version of KDE4 I had... I typed into the search box... and in all cases it worked exactly as it should. No resizing...

Of course I didn't. Am I being so unreasonable to assume that it is ridiculous to expect users to discard all their preferences and customizations when upgrading from one KDE release to another? I could buy that argument when upgrading from KDE3 to KDE4, but there is no excuse for that now. KDE 4.4.x ought to offer a seamless upgrade experience for any KDE 4.3.5 user, otherwise what's the point?

In my tests in the past 2 days, I found that I didn't need to reset my profile at all during the update cycle.... so I retract my comment about needing to remove the config. This was something that was necessary at one point, but is no longer (at least in the testing I did today) - I learned something :-) So, I'm still confident in the stability and usability of KDE4.4.1. On all systems I run it on.. laptops, netbooks, desktops/servers, it's working very well. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 17:58, Vadym Krevs wrote:

Again, you're lucky not to experience the problem. I'm not the only one who had experienced this problem - just look at the konsole/qt bug reports I've included in my original email.

I don't know how I'm lucky. I did a clean install and stepped up to 4.4.1 with no special tweaking or fiddling. This is not on just one install, but multiple installs that it's working perfectly. I've tried.. I really have tried to duplicate what you reported. :-P

 http://bugreports.qt.nokia.com/browse/QTBUG-7011  http://bugreports.qt.nokia.com/browse/QTBUG-8620  http://bugreports.qt.nokia.com/browse/QTBUG-7255

 which indicates that there is indeed a bug in Qt 4.6.x. To me, this particular issue a  pretty serious bug, because it renders konsole unusable.

No argument that there may be a bug. I'm not able to trigger it though on any system I've got... with qt4.6.2-3.1 I just read through the bug reports.. is it always just Misc Fixed that has the problem?

 BTW, does konsole render the Misc Console font correctly for you?

Yes. Perfectly. I can (and just did) step through all fonts and they all work exactly as they should. I can resize them as well.. .no issues. So.... what is the common factor or difference between random working systems and the failed installs? What is it that triggers the bugs? I've got no idea. The computers I'm running 4.4.1 on are very diverse... different CPU types, some 64 bit, some 32 bit, some with nVidia video, others with Intel video... not one has the probs described in the bug reports :-P You'd think that if it was a common problem, we'd all be fighting the bug... C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 30 March 2010 22:58, Vadym Krevs wrote:

On 27 March 2010 19:29, C wrote:

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On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 17:58, Vadym Krevs wrote:

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Again, you're lucky not to experience the problem. I'm not the only one who had experienced this problem - just look at the konsole/qt bug reports I've included in my original email.

I don't know how I'm lucky.  I did a clean install and stepped up to 4.4.1 with no special tweaking or fiddling.  This is not on just one install, but multiple installs that it's working perfectly.  I've tried.. I really have tried to duplicate what you reported.  :-P

...

 http://bugreports.qt.nokia.com/browse/QTBUG-7011  http://bugreports.qt.nokia.com/browse/QTBUG-8620  http://bugreports.qt.nokia.com/browse/QTBUG-7255

 which indicates that there is indeed a bug in Qt 4.6.x. To me, this particular issue a  pretty serious bug, because it renders konsole unusable.

No argument that there may be a bug.  I'm not able to trigger it though on any system I've got... with qt4.6.2-3.1

I just read through the bug reports.. is it always just Misc Fixed that has the problem?

...

 BTW, does konsole render the Misc Console font correctly for you?

Yes.  Perfectly.  I can (and just did) step through all fonts and they all work exactly as they should.  I can resize them as well.. .no issues.

So.... what is the common factor or difference between random working systems and the failed installs?  What is it that triggers the bugs? I've got no idea.  The computers I'm running 4.4.1 on are very diverse... different CPU types, some 64 bit, some 32 bit, some with nVidia video, others with Intel video... not one has the probs described in the bug reports :-P  You'd think that if it was a common problem, we'd all be fighting the bug...

Well, I've just downloaded a KDE 4.4.1 live image from http://ftp5.gwdg.de/pub/opensuse/repositories/KDE:/Medias/images/iso/KDE-Fou... and started it in VirtualBox. Once live cd loaded, I started konsole and changed the default font to Misc Fixed. Result - incorrectly rendered Misc Fixed font.

http://bugreports.qt.nokia.com/browse/QTBUG-7011 http://bugreports.qt.nokia.com/secure/attachment/13954/kde441_live_konsole_f...

All this is on a LiveCD in VirtualBox, with zero configuration tweaks.

This is getting interesting. The live CD actually comes with KDE4.4.2. I've installed it, and ran an online update. No change. Then I've added the Qt46 repo http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/KDE:/Qt46/openSUSE_11.2/ and updated to Qt 4.6.3+4.6.20100330 from it. Guess what, now Misc Fixed is rendered correctly, however konsole is unable to remember to use it in the default profile after restart. Each time konsole is restarted, it resets the default font to Monospace. Like I said before - KDE 4.4.x is not ready. Vadym -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 31 March 2010 08:01, Sven Burmeister wrote:

Am Mittwoch, 31. März 2010 00:50:56 schrieb Vadym Krevs:

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This is getting interesting. The live CD actually comes with KDE4.4.2. I've installed it, and ran an online update. No change.

Then I've added the Qt46 repo http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/KDE:/Qt46/openSUSE_11.2/ and updated to Qt 4.6.3+4.6.20100330 from it. Guess what, now Misc Fixed is rendered correctly, however konsole is unable to remember to use it in the default profile after restart. Each time konsole is restarted, it resets the default font to Monospace. Like I said before - KDE 4.4.x is not ready.

As if the use of Monospace would hinder your work. I use KDE 4.4.x daily for work, including the konsole, so like I said - KDE 4.4.x is ready.

Well, as I don't like the Monospace font, it does hinder my work, as opposed to a correctly rendered Misc Console (or Misc Fixed), which is easier to read, IMHO. No software has any business dictating users what fonts they may to use. If KDE 4.4.x/Qt 4.6.x had been tested better, such a regression - incorrect fixed width font rendering - would have never slipped through. Similarly, had konsole from KDE 4.4.x been better tested, it would've been able to save and reuse user's preferences such as default font. You may not care about such glitches, I do. To me, KDE 4.4.x is not as stable as KDE 4.3.5, hence it's not ready. That's basically it. Regards, Vadym -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 31 March 2010 09:18, C wrote:

On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 10:13, Vadym Krevs wrote:

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would have never slipped through. Similarly, had konsole from KDE 4.4.x been better tested, it would've been able to save and reuse user's preferences such as default font.

I've tested this on multiple machines.. the font preferences save just fine. I can set to Misc Fixed and save/exit the preferences... restart Terminal and the font pref is Misc Fixed.  Reboot.. same thing.. terminal retains whatever font I select, and whatever font size I select.

If this was a common issue that is reported in the bugs, then we would all see it... I go back to my question from before... what is different in your system vs all the ones I've tested (multiple hardware configs... laptop and desktop) that makes it work correctly every time for me and fail every time for you?

Well, you noted quite correctly in one of the previous emails that the issue may have been caused by some settings in my .kde4 profile or my hardware. That's precisely why I had downloaded a KDE 4 live cd with KDE 4.4.2 and booted it in Virtual Box and immediately reproduced it. The issue remained after installing from the live image in virtual box and applying all relevant standard updates. That probably eliminates the settings in .kde4 profile as the root cause of any of these issues. Next is hardware. I am pretty certain that the image in virtual box does not use the binary ATI driver which is probably the only other thing that could have been relevant. So I feel doubtful that the hardware on my real system is the cause either. And one final note - I am not the only person who has experienced these issues. Please have a glance through the Qt bug reports I had listed in the previous emails, or search for open konsole bugs in kde's bugzilla, and you will see that other people had encountered them as well. And not only on openSUSE. Regards, Vadym -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 31 March 2010 10:52, Mark Goldstein wrote:

Vadym,

On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 12:10 PM, Vadym Krevs wrote:

...

On 31 March 2010 09:18, C wrote:

...

On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 10:13, Vadym Krevs wrote:

...

would have never slipped through. Similarly, had konsole from KDE 4.4.x been better tested, it would've been able to save and reuse user's preferences such as default font.

I've tested this on multiple machines.. the font preferences save just fine. I can set to Misc Fixed and save/exit the preferences... restart Terminal and the font pref is Misc Fixed.  Reboot.. same thing.. terminal retains whatever font I select, and whatever font size I select.

If this was a common issue that is reported in the bugs, then we would all see it... I go back to my question from before... what is different in your system vs all the ones I've tested (multiple hardware configs... laptop and desktop) that makes it work correctly every time for me and fail every time for you?

Well, you noted quite correctly in one of the previous emails that the issue may have been caused by some settings in my .kde4 profile or my hardware. That's precisely why I had downloaded a KDE 4 live cd with KDE 4.4.2 and booted it in Virtual Box and immediately reproduced it. The issue remained after installing from the live image in virtual box and applying all relevant standard updates. That probably eliminates the settings in .kde4 profile as the root cause of any of these issues. Next is hardware. I am pretty certain that the image in virtual box does not use the binary ATI driver which is probably the only other thing that could have been relevant. So I feel doubtful that the hardware on my real system is the cause either.

And one final note - I am not the only person who has experienced these issues. Please have a glance through the Qt bug reports I had listed in the previous emails, or search for open konsole bugs in kde's bugzilla, and you will see that other people had encountered them as well. And not only on openSUSE.

One reason why saving of preferences works for some and does not work for others might be the number of opened Konsoles. I bumped into it while fighting with profiles (see https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=557536). The workaround suggested on KDE bug list was to close all Konsoles but one, make your settings, save and exit it. Then the settings are really saved. Otherwise it may happen that after you change some preference in one Konsole and re-login, the other Konsole has been closed later and it's settings overridden the saved before. I had separate Konsole window on each desktop, and I could not save modified profiles.

(It is not specific for 4.4, it was the same for 4.3 and 4.2)

Mark, thanks for the tip about multiple konsole instances. It doesn't apply to my situation though because I didn't open multiple konsole instances, just one with a single default tab in it. Regards, Vadym -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

--- On Thu, 4/1/10, Vadym Krevs wrote:

For those who may be interested, the reason why konsole from a clean KDE 4.4.x image fails to persist default font settings is because that out-of-the box it does not create a .profile file in .kde4/share/apps/konsole/ for the default profile. https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=232779

Regards, Vadym

I've found that my "Root Shell" profile attributes -- font and background -- are ignored. However, I've found two circumventions: 1: If you want every user to have the same profile attributes, then create the profile and copy it from ~/.kde4/share/apps/konsole to /usr/share/kde4/apps/konsole 2: Create a profile with another name, e.g, "su", issue the requisite su command from there, and use that profile in place of "Root Shell" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Am Mittwoch, 31. März 2010 10:13:26 schrieb Vadym Krevs:

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As if the use of Monospace would hinder your work. I use KDE 4.4.x daily for work, including the konsole, so like I said - KDE 4.4.x is ready.

Well, as I don't like the Monospace font, it does hinder my work, as opposed to a correctly rendered Misc Console (or Misc Fixed), which is easier to read, IMHO. No software has any business dictating users what fonts they may to use. If KDE 4.4.x/Qt 4.6.x had been tested better, such a regression - incorrect fixed width font rendering - would have never slipped through. Similarly, had konsole from KDE 4.4.x been better tested, it would've been able to save and reuse user's preferences such as default font.

So you failed to test it and complain about that? Who held you back testing? You cannot demand others to spend their free time on something you yourself are not willing to spend your free time on. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Am Mittwoch, 31. März 2010 10:50:29 schrieb Vadym Krevs:

On 31 March 2010 09:20, Sven Burmeister wrote:

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Am Mittwoch, 31. März 2010 10:13:26 schrieb Vadym Krevs:

...

...

As if the use of Monospace would hinder your work. I use KDE 4.4.x daily for work, including the konsole, so like I said - KDE 4.4.x is ready.

Well, as I don't like the Monospace font, it does hinder my work, as opposed to a correctly rendered Misc Console (or Misc Fixed), which is easier to read, IMHO. No software has any business dictating users what fonts they may to use. If KDE 4.4.x/Qt 4.6.x had been tested better, such a regression - incorrect fixed width font rendering - would have never slipped through. Similarly, had konsole from KDE 4.4.x been better tested, it would've been able to save and reuse user's preferences such as default font.

So you failed to test it and complain about that? Who held you back testing? You cannot demand others to spend their free time on something you yourself are not willing to spend your free time on.

Come again? I am not employed by Trolltech/Nokia to develop/maintain/test Qt. Qt is not your usual run-of-the-mill library written by a student at night in order to learn how to program. It is the flagship product of the company behind it. And that company develops it not because it wants world peace but because it want to make money. As such, it is reasonable to expect this company to test its flagship product before it is released.

Trying to bail out? Forgetting your own words? If I may quote you "Like I said before - KDE 4.4.x is not ready." Where is the Qt in there? You complained about KDE 4.4. not being ready and now wonder why you get answers on your very own statement? Seems odd. You did not test KDE 4.4 RCs but complain about KDE 4.4. That does not make sense. If you just tested and reported issues, fair enough, but you added a comment that adds no constructive content at all but is just complaining.

As to konsole, this very email thread is proof that I actually did test it by downloading KDE 4.4.x from OBS, installing it on both my live system and from a live cd inside a VM image, and raising a bunch of issues. And I did do that in my free time. So, please calm down and don't accuse me of something I didn't do.

Testing after a release and complaining about that release not being tested enough before it was released by somebody else does not make sense. So if you state something like "Like I said before - KDE 4.4.x is not ready." don't be surprised that you get answers regarding that very statement. Just stick to testing and reporting without adding any complaints that do not add anything constructive. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

* Thomas Taylor [03-26-10 19:15]:

On 3/26/2010 4:15 AM, C wrote:

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You can turn it off in the options.

NO YOU CAN'T!!! I've tried that and it doesn't work. Still insists on starting up.

<snip>

But one can, perhaps you have been unable to. Please explain your system and efforts and, perhaps we can help you be successful. -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org