On Wed, 2007-12-19 at 18:10 -0500, Aaron Kulkis wrote:

Stevens wrote:

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Today Kevin Dupuy wrote:

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From what I'm reading right now, I'm presuming either you have no documents, or they are all on your desktop. If you actually did work, you would love Beagle. I do.

I've been using Beagle since it's SUSE introduction in 2005 (9.3), and it is a really nice way to find any documents, emails, chats, web history, music, podcasts, videos, etc. that is really easy to find things.

Furthermore, as I mentioned on the "other" thread, I'm trying to figure out why Beagle takes up so much CPU and memory in some people's computers

ALSO:

Today "Peter Van Lone" wrote:

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it's desktop search ... what's the big mystery? Have you been living under a rock for the last 2 or 3 years?

If you don't want/need desktop search, then fine. Many do. Beagle seems to be a quite useful example of a category of service that many many millions of people use.

OK, a little clarification is needed. I neither live under a rock nor do I idle away my time. Nor can I fathom a need for Beagle when it is such a resource hog.

I am reminded of a friend who has been buying and using personal computers since the old twin 5 1/4" drive TRS-80 just so he could keep track of his crap. Nowdays he is no better and he uses some kind of file indexing scheme on his Windows box. I used to spend time there helping him with projects; after a day or two, I had all his stuff catalogued in my head and could find it for him faster than he could look it up. Ditto with my files that are strung out over 3 disk drives and in tons of email. For me, Beagle is a terrible waste; for him and others like him, it is probably a Godsend. YMMV.

I similarly have no problem finding any file I create which may be years since I last touched it.

The key is ORDERLY, LOGICAL creation and naming of both files and directory the trees in both my home directory and other "storage areas" (such as /local for stuff I download and want to keep from version to version but doesn't really belong in $HOME).

...

Fred

By the way, FYI Kevin: my system is: * Intel 2.4GHz CPU, 512MB RAM, Intel chipset * Suse 10.2, kernel 2.6.18, KDE 3.5.5 * kmail, 4800 files, 730MB * no Beagle

OK, here's the issue: you're not "most people". I'm not most people. All of us subscribed to this mailing list are probably not most people. And most people don't name their files orderly, and put them in logical places. I've seen people who write something about a project about the Civil War and name it "project.doc". I would name it "Civil War Project.odt", and that person put the file in their My Pictures folder because that's where the Save dialog box is open to. They are the people who would benefit most from Beagle, and that's also about 90% of the computing population, so if openSUSE wants to reach that 90%, it a good idea to have Beagle installed by default and turned on. -- Kevin "Yo" Dupuy | Public Email: Merry Christmas from Yo.media! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, 2007-12-20 at 14:45 -0500, Gary Baribault wrote:

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OK, here's the issue: you're not "most people". I'm not most people. All of us subscribed to this mailing list are probably not most people. And most people don't name their files orderly, and put them in logical places. I've seen people who write something about a project about the Civil War and name it "project.doc". I would name it "Civil War Project.odt", and that person put the file in their My Pictures folder because that's where the Save dialog box is open to. They are the people who would benefit most from Beagle, and that's also about 90% of the computing population, so if openSUSE wants to reach that 90%, it a good idea to have Beagle installed by default and turned on.

Unless of course that solution destroys the performance on the target system. I am the one who started this thread, and as I stated at the beginning, I have a dual core Turion L52 64bit processor, 1.5Gigs of memory and a 7200 RPM Sata drive, and the performance went out the door. Other than a large MBox in my Thunderbird, I don't have that much data to index, and Beagle took 700Meg or RAM and 1Gig of SWAP, niced or not, that causes a lot of swapping.

Gary B

I think a bigger and more appropriate question is to determine WHY your performance is degraded. I'm running 10.3 on two boxes with far less power than you, with the exception that on one of those boxes, it is a 750GB Sata drive. And I have had absolutely NO performance degradation whatsoever, and I do see value in Beagle, even if I don't use it all that much. So maybe we should focus on what are the issues related to your hardware configuration/setup? THEN, we can get to the heart of the problems some users (but not all!) experience. At which point, you'll have a happy system if you don't need Beagle, and others will have a happy system if they DO need Beagle. Otherwise, all you're implying is have it your way, and not anyone else's way. And I find that logic rather puzzling. -- ---Bryen--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, 2007-12-21 at 02:03 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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The Thursday 2007-12-20 at 14:31 -0600, Bryen wrote:

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Unless of course that solution destroys the performance on the target system. I am the one who started this thread, and as I stated at the beginning, I have a dual core Turion L52 64bit processor, 1.5Gigs of memory and a 7200 RPM Sata drive, and the performance went out the door. Other than a large MBox in my Thunderbird, I don't have that much data to index, and Beagle took 700Meg or RAM and 1Gig of SWAP, niced or not, that causes a lot of swapping.

I think a bigger and more appropriate question is to determine WHY your performance is degraded.

Don't you see why it is degraded? It is obvious: his beagle used 700 MB of RAM and 1GB of swap.

That's a software problem, a bug in beagle eating that much memory and causing swapping. Not a hardware problem at all. Or are you saying that in order to use beagle he should buy 2 Gigs more?

- -- Cheers, Carlos E. R.

I'm saying I'm running it on my primary box with only 640MB RAM, 1 GIG swap and I have no performance issues whatsoever. So, the fact that hardware was discussed before I made my comment, it was to emphasize that the hardware issue is probably moot. Somewhere there's a configuration issue. And it ain't a common issue on every machine, so the point is, instead of bashing Beagle as a problem for everyone, let's focus on why its a problem for SOME people and not others. Then we can get to the root of the problem. -- ---Bryen--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, 2007-12-20 at 19:08 -0600, Bryen wrote:

On Fri, 2007-12-21 at 02:03 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:

I'm saying I'm running it on my primary box with only 640MB RAM, 1 GIG swap and I have no performance issues whatsoever. So, the fact that hardware was discussed before I made my comment, it was to emphasize that the hardware issue is probably moot. Somewhere there's a configuration issue. And it ain't a common issue on every machine, so the point is, instead of bashing Beagle as a problem for everyone, let's focus on why its a problem for SOME people and not others. Then we can get to the root of the problem.

Its almost not certainly a hardware problem. As I mentioned earlier in the thread its almost certainly a problem with a particular piece of data or the thunderbird backend which got rewritten in 0.3.x (the MOC mailbox format is not really accessible through mozilla APIs). This is one reason the thunderbird backend is packaged separately, so a quick thing for Gary to try is to rpm -e beagle-thunderbird and see if that solves the problem. If not, its back to: http://beagle-project.org/Troubleshooting_CPU -JP -- JP Rosevear Novell, Inc. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Gary Baribault wrote:

They are the people

...

who would benefit most from Beagle, and that's also about 90% of the computing population, so if openSUSE wants to reach that 90%, it a good idea to have Beagle installed by default and turned on.

good point, but perhaps something to think about would be during installation and configuration of the os a dialog box asks for a certain time of day to index the drive so as not to interfere with normal operation. OR at least a dialog box warning that there is going to be cpu intensive indexing being done.... "and live with it." I prefer the latter. steve

Gary B

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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Thursday 2007-12-20 at 19:26 -0600, Rajko M. wrote:

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Unless of course that solution destroys the performance on the target system. I am the one who started this thread, and as I stated at the beginning, I have a dual core Turion L52 64bit processor, 1.5Gigs of memory and a 7200 RPM Sata drive, and the performance went out the door. Other than a large MBox in my Thunderbird, I don't have that much data to index, and Beagle took 700Meg or RAM and 1Gig of SWAP, niced or not, that causes a lot of swapping.

Hi Gary,

what version of SUSE, Beagle, Mono is installed on your computer.

I don't see problems with beagle. Top shows that: beagle-helper runs with nice 19 and priority 39 beagled runs with nice 7 and priority 22 both nice values are lower than normal applications. Priority number someone has to explain.

I remember reading that beagle had problems with thunderbird files. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHaxp4tTMYHG2NR9URAsYBAJ9KfmnJl6psZqbNkIpfH2noVAcCSwCfQ5vS 8coAQFW2hAX1nljl9pbbm44= =ms1U -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 20 December 2007 09:15:15 pm Rodney Baker wrote:

Notwithstanding the fact that Beagle created performance issues on your system, have you considered converting from MBox to Maildir format for your mail? This will increase performance both in terms of reading mail and also probably for Beagle (which probably tried to load your entire MBox file into memory in order to index your mail). It doesn't have to do that with Maildir since each mail is a separate file.

Hi Rodney, Can you believe that I converted maildirs to mbox just to increase performace of KMail. Before I had to wait for hours until my huge Mail directory is imported in new installation, seconds to open opensuse@opensuse.org folder and using Kmail wasn't joy. Now all big folders are mbox format and I have no problems. Kmail and Beagle do not load whole mbox into memory. My mbox is 5 GB for opensuse@opensuse.org alone, and with 2 GB RAM and 2 GB swap I would have system crash every time I open KMail, if it would attempt to read whole file in a memory. In today systems it is not CPU problem, it is hard disk I/O operation what is slow, and also there is big difference in speed between data transfer when data are stored in one big file and many small. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 21 December 2007 16:06:47 Rajko M. wrote:

On Thursday 20 December 2007 09:15:15 pm Rodney Baker wrote:

...

Notwithstanding the fact that Beagle created performance issues on your system, have you considered converting from MBox to Maildir format for your mail? This will increase performance both in terms of reading mail and also probably for Beagle (which probably tried to load your entire MBox file into memory in order to index your mail). It doesn't have to do that with Maildir since each mail is a separate file.

Hi Rodney,

Can you believe that I converted maildirs to mbox just to increase performace of KMail. Before I had to wait for hours until my huge Mail directory is imported in new installation, seconds to open opensuse@opensuse.org folder and using Kmail wasn't joy.

Now all big folders are mbox format and I have no problems. Kmail and Beagle do not load whole mbox into memory. My mbox is 5 GB for opensuse@opensuse.org alone, and with 2 GB RAM and 2 GB swap I would have system crash every time I open KMail, if it would attempt to read whole file in a memory.

In today systems it is not CPU problem, it is hard disk I/O operation what is slow, and also there is big difference in speed between data transfer when data are stored in one big file and many small.

-- Regards, Rajko

OK, I stand corrected. I found the opposite - using mbox it was much slower and less reliable, but that could be due to the fact that I was running dovecot IMAP locally so that I can access my email from different machines. The other advantage to maildirs as opposed to mbox (at least as I see it) is that if the mbox file becomes corrupt (for whatever reason), you can lose the lot, whereas with maildirs you lose only the affected email(s). Anyway, this is getting OT. I guess the lesson is YMMV depending on your installation and needs. Regards, Rodney. -- =================================================== Rodney Baker VK5ZTV rodney.baker@optusnet.com.au =================================================== -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Carlos E. R. wrote:

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Notwithstanding the fact that Beagle created performance issues on your system, have you considered converting from MBox to Maildir format for your mail? This will increase performance both in terms of reading mail and also probably for Beagle (which probably tried to load your entire MBox file into memory in order to index your mail). It doesn't have to do that with Maildir since each mail is a separate file.

He (Gary) is using Thunderbird, which I believe does not support maildir local folders.

That's correct, which I assume is not that rare?

That's the theory, but I have lots of large mboxes and I never lost one.

I have about 40 boxes in subtrees varying from near nothing to 600Mb for the largest, but the total is between 2Gigs and 2.5Gigs. I don't think that sets any records, although I assume that it's probably above average. If Beagle can't index that with decent performance on my hardware, then I have to wonder what it's doing out of Beta.

Right :-)

-- Cheers, Carlos E. R.

I just don't understand why it works so bad on such a good computer and an average data load. Gary Baribault -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHa8xA5BLKxPqBKDURAiQJAJ9CWmjAvg8NxePnv4msF/hVhZJxEACfVB3R V4PxWhiUQFLHrh2RHsPkPdE= =XBU5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 21 December 2007 10:28:01 am Aaron Kulkis wrote:

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I just don't understand why it works so bad on such a good computer and an average data load.

Simple, Gary.

It's poorly designed and/or written, because it's behavior while executing is very careless, and consumes resources far in excess of it's utility.

Beagle runs as if the whole reason for having data on a computer is for beagle to have something to sort, rather than that the purpose of beagle is to index the data created and used by the programs that the user actually wants to have the computer for.

The thing needs a complete overhaul.

None up to now told what version of SUSE is used. None is trying to start troubleshooting. Just bashing, with no technical arguments. Kulkis, are you are doing this on your own time? I don't think so. It is so fine pollution of informational value of this list that it doesn't appear as amateur work. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 22 December 2007 13:42, Rajko M. wrote:

None up to now told what version of SUSE is used.

I did. Hey, over here. I did. (hand waving frantically) Didn't seem to make any difference, though. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Kai Ponte wrote:

On Friday 21 December 2007 08:28, Aaron Kulkis wrote:

<snippage>

...

...

I just don't understand why it works so bad on such a good computer and an average data load. Simple, Gary.

It's poorly designed and/or written, because it's behavior while executing is very careless, and consumes resources far in excess of it's utility.

Beagle runs as if the whole reason for having data on a computer is for beagle to have something to sort, rather than that the purpose of beagle is to index the data created and used by the programs that the user actually wants to have the computer for.

The thing needs a complete overhaul.

Excellent idea, Aaron.

I think I just read you volunteering.

Wrong.

Here you go...

I don't need this application in the first place. Why would I waste my time when there are other things to do which I'm actually interested in creating. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 PerfectReign wrote: | If you don't like it, don't install it. There's no one holding your | fingers to the keyboard. I'm tired of some arguments. If you like beagle install it. If you don't leave it. This is a free world. But beagle is a default install in opensuse and linking to libbeagle a must. So your argument doesn't count. IMO if beagle wouldn't be a default selection then there would be no problem at all. For my part I don't have it, I don't use it and even libbeagle is hacked out of my system. But one or two unexperienced users might have a problem with beagle after all. - -- All the best, Peter J. N. aedon DESIGNS http://www.hochzeitsbuch.info http://www.hochzeitsbuch.selfip.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHiN3fh8q3OtgoGAwRAkJ1AJ9IEeHlHwC5Js+3XZLJbWAMGdxGeACfUCsb U1KkKbyLcgrqAIC6Ns+sL08= =moLB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

PerfectReign wrote:

On Sat, January 12, 2008 7:33 am, peter wrote:

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PerfectReign wrote:

| If you don't like it, don't install it. There's no one holding your | fingers to the keyboard.

I'm tired of some arguments. If you like beagle install it. If you don't leave it. This is a free world.

But beagle is a default install in opensuse and linking to libbeagle a must. So your argument doesn't count.

No - I simply clicked on "ban" in the installer (last two installs) and it griped a bit but let me pass.

My mother - by the way - runs beagle and kerry just fine she never notices any issues. However, I refuse to have it.

Bitching about it is just childish unless one bitches and then takes it upon oneself to either (a) remove it or (b) re-write it.

It would be nice if SuSE didn't make it a default install, with the dependency complaints if you remove it. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Kevin Dupuy wrote:

I'll go for not throwing up dependency errors if uninstalling, but it definitely needs to be in the default install. Most users will want Beagle.

bullshit. I have found the "dreaded dog" to be absolutely worthless. I don't have the eating cpu complaint, but a google desktop it aint... -- David C. Rankin, J.D., P.E. Rankin Law Firm, PLLC 510 Ochiltree Street Nacogdoches, Texas 75961 Telephone: (936) 715-9333 Facsimile: (936) 715-9339 www.rankinlawfirm.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin wrote:

...

bullshit. I have found the "dreaded dog" to be absolutely worthless. I don't have the eating cpu complaint, but a google desktop it aint... ROFL!

BUT!.......don't ever mention "google" in polite society or a family forum.

But isn't the enemy of my enemy my friend? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Kevin Dupuy wrote:

...

I'll go for not throwing up dependency errors if uninstalling, but it definitely needs to be in the default install. Most users will want Beagle.

I have a dozen or so OpenSUSE 10.x installations here, not one person leaves Beagle stuff running because it causes so many problems. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Kevin Dupuy wrote:

On Sat, 2008-01-12 at 16:06 -0500, Aaron Kulkis wrote:

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PerfectReign wrote:

...

On Sat, January 12, 2008 7:33 am, peter wrote:

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PerfectReign wrote:

| If you don't like it, don't install it. There's no one holding your | fingers to the keyboard.

I'm tired of some arguments. If you like beagle install it. If you don't leave it. This is a free world.

But beagle is a default install in opensuse and linking to libbeagle a must. So your argument doesn't count. No - I simply clicked on "ban" in the installer (last two installs) and it griped a bit but let me pass.

My mother - by the way - runs beagle and kerry just fine she never notices any issues. However, I refuse to have it.

Bitching about it is just childish unless one bitches and then takes it upon oneself to either (a) remove it or (b) re-write it. It would be nice if SuSE didn't make it a default install, with the dependency complaints if you remove it.

I'll go for not throwing up dependency errors if uninstalling, but it definitely needs to be in the default install. Most users will want Beagle.

Really? "Most Users" dont use Windows search, either. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

...

...

I'll go for not throwing up dependency errors if uninstalling, but it definitely needs to be in the default install. Most users will want Beagle.

I doubt this - all the users we have hate beagle and either remove it or ask someone to remove it for them.

Exactly. Other than a few on this mailing list, I have yet to meet ANYONE who likes or uses Beagle. The issue is not whether or not these people do or do not use a desktop search tool... it's because of the major performance impact that happens when Beagle is running. I can really see the usefulness of the concept behind Beagle... especially for a few end users that I know and help out from time to time. The trade off though... The system performance impact they are all reporting is consistent... and it's consistent with my experience. To those that say open a bug report... open it and say what? Beagle is too slow? Devs will want specifics (and rightly so). I have no specifics other than to say that Beagle is not suitable to be used on a regular basis because of the performance impact I and every one else I know have experienced.... which is basically what almost everyone here is saying... minus the few who do have Beagle working fine. I would like to know how they managed it... if the answer is something along the lines of "I opened a terminal, su to root, nice -19ed it and then issue this other long string of commands..."... sorry... that tells me that Beagle should not be given to the masses by default. If it works by default, then why is it working for you and not the rest of us? What is different? I install a default install as given me by the openSUSE installer and Beagle is consistently a resource hog... not only on initial boot, but long long after as well. This is the same (in my experience) on clean installs with no user data, and on my desktop with its 1.2TB of legacy data across 7 drives. Something doesn't make sense here. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Clayton wrote:

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...

...

I'll go for not throwing up dependency errors if uninstalling, but it definitely needs to be in the default install. Most users will want Beagle. I doubt this - all the users we have hate beagle and either remove it or ask someone to remove it for them.

Exactly. Other than a few on this mailing list, I have yet to meet ANYONE who likes or uses Beagle. The issue is not whether or not these people do or do not use a desktop search tool... it's because of the major performance impact that happens when Beagle is running.

I can really see the usefulness of the concept behind Beagle... especially for a few end users that I know and help out from time to time. The trade off though... The system performance impact they are all reporting is consistent... and it's consistent with my experience.

To those that say open a bug report... open it and say what? Beagle is too slow? Devs will want specifics (and rightly so). I have no specifics other than to say that Beagle is not suitable to be used on a regular basis because of the performance impact I and every one else I know have experienced.... which is basically what almost everyone here is saying... minus the few who do have Beagle working fine.

I would like to know how they managed it... if the answer is something along the lines of "I opened a terminal, su to root, nice -19ed it and then issue this other long string of commands..."... sorry... that tells me that Beagle should not be given to the masses by default. If it works by default, then why is it working for you and not the rest of us? What is different? I install a default install as given me by the openSUSE installer and Beagle is consistently a resource hog... not only on initial boot, but long long after as well. This is the same (in my experience) on clean installs with no user data, and on my desktop with its 1.2TB of legacy data across 7 drives. Something doesn't make sense here.

Old saying: The beatings will continue until morale improves. I think it applies here. I cannot believe that the devs are NOT aware of this.... it's been this way for several years, and they haven't done shit about it. Which indicates that they just aren't interested in fixing it. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Kevin Dupuy wrote:

On Mon, 2008-01-14 at 12:35 -0500, Aaron Kulkis wrote:

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Clayton wrote:

...

...

...

...

I'll go for not throwing up dependency errors if uninstalling, but it definitely needs to be in the default install. Most users will want Beagle. I doubt this - all the users we have hate beagle and either remove it or ask someone to remove it for them. Exactly. Other than a few on this mailing list, I have yet to meet ANYONE who likes or uses Beagle. The issue is not whether or not these people do or do not use a desktop search tool... it's because of the major performance impact that happens when Beagle is running.

I can really see the usefulness of the concept behind Beagle... especially for a few end users that I know and help out from time to time. The trade off though... The system performance impact they are all reporting is consistent... and it's consistent with my experience.

To those that say open a bug report... open it and say what? Beagle is too slow? Devs will want specifics (and rightly so). I have no specifics other than to say that Beagle is not suitable to be used on a regular basis because of the performance impact I and every one else I know have experienced.... which is basically what almost everyone here is saying... minus the few who do have Beagle working fine.

I would like to know how they managed it... if the answer is something along the lines of "I opened a terminal, su to root, nice -19ed it and then issue this other long string of commands..."... sorry... that tells me that Beagle should not be given to the masses by default. If it works by default, then why is it working for you and not the rest of us? What is different? I install a default install as given me by the openSUSE installer and Beagle is consistently a resource hog... not only on initial boot, but long long after as well. This is the same (in my experience) on clean installs with no user data, and on my desktop with its 1.2TB of legacy data across 7 drives. Something doesn't make sense here. Old saying:

The beatings will continue until morale improves.

I think it applies here.

I cannot believe that the devs are NOT aware of this.... it's been this way for several years, and they haven't done shit about it. Which indicates that they just aren't interested in fixing it.

And WHAT exactly makes you think the devs haven't been working on that issue? Are you in communication with the devs who told you they don't care?

A basic functionality issue existing for years on end, and which has been widely commented upon over this time. The lack of improvement is a clear demonstration that there is something seriously wrong with this team and their code. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

man, 14.01.2008 kl. 16.03 +0100, skrev Clayton: snip

Exactly. Other than a few on this mailing list, I have yet to meet ANYONE who likes or uses Beagle. The issue is not whether or not these people do or do not use a desktop search tool... it's because of the major performance impact that happens when Beagle is running.

I can really see the usefulness of the concept behind Beagle... especially for a few end users that I know and help out from time to time. The trade off though... The system performance impact they are all reporting is consistent... and it's consistent with my experience.

To those that say open a bug report... open it and say what? Beagle is too slow? Devs will want specifics (and rightly so). I have no specifics other than to say that Beagle is not suitable to be used on a regular basis because of the performance impact I and every one else I know have experienced.... which is basically what almost everyone here is saying... minus the few who do have Beagle working fine.

snip I have no problems with Beagle, works like a charm, and I like it a lot! I'll admitt that I've had one -1- issue with it, when it made my box a slow hog, and that was when someone sent me a borked .doc file, that made beagle choke. Deleted the file, and no, none, whatsoever problems since. That this can happen is known as far as I could find out, so I didn't file a bug. + the devs want the broken file in the bug, and the content in this file was not something I could put out in the wild. What you have to remember is that us that have no problems with beagle are not vocal about it. People tend to only speak up when they encounter issues, the reminder of the time we keep our mouth shut. The reason for me speaking up now is that this never ending trolling against beagle has to stop. Bjørn -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 14 January 2008 06:35:18 pm Aaron Kulkis wrote:

I'll admitt that I've had one -1- issue with it, when it made my box a

...

slow hog, and that was when someone sent me a borked .doc file, that made beagle choke. Deleted the file, and no, none, whatsoever problems since.

That this can happen is known as far as I could find out, so I didn't file a bug. + the devs want the broken file in the bug, and the content in this file was not something I could put out in the wild.

This is such complete bullshit by the devs.

There is NO REASON for them to be using ANY system calls which could result in a target file being opened for writing, let alone unlinked.  All they need to do is go back and REMOVE the code which allows such things to happen in the first place.

How in the world is a program which is SUPPOSED to be opening files and directories with READ PERMISSION ONLY removing *ANY* of those files????

Hmm... Where do you read that program deleted file? It was Bjørn the one that deleted file. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Kevin Dupuy wrote:

On Mon, 2008-01-14 at 16:03 +0100, Clayton wrote:

...

...

...

...

I'll go for not throwing up dependency errors if uninstalling, but it definitely needs to be in the default install. Most users will want Beagle. I doubt this - all the users we have hate beagle and either remove it or ask someone to remove it for them. Exactly. Other than a few on this mailing list, I have yet to meet ANYONE who likes or uses Beagle. The issue is not whether or not these people do or do not use a desktop search tool... it's because of the major performance impact that happens when Beagle is running.

I can really see the usefulness of the concept behind Beagle... especially for a few end users that I know and help out from time to time. The trade off though... The system performance impact they are all reporting is consistent... and it's consistent with my experience.

To those that say open a bug report... open it and say what? Beagle is too slow? Devs will want specifics (and rightly so). I have no specifics other than to say that Beagle is not suitable to be used on a regular basis because of the performance impact I and every one else I know have experienced.... which is basically what almost everyone here is saying... minus the few who do have Beagle working fine.

I would like to know how they managed it... if the answer is something along the lines of "I opened a terminal, su to root, nice -19ed it and then issue this other long string of commands..."... sorry... that tells me that Beagle should not be given to the masses by default. If it works by default, then why is it working for you and not the rest of us? What is different? I install a default install as given me by the openSUSE installer and Beagle is consistently a resource hog... not only on initial boot, but long long after as well. This is the same (in my experience) on clean installs with no user data, and on my desktop with its 1.2TB of legacy data across 7 drives. Something doesn't make sense here.

C.

I've had about 10 people installed openSUSE on their computer, (mainly family members), told them to contact me if anything happens, and NONE of them have complained about openSUSE being slow on their computers. These are normal users, who use their computers after coming home from work and to do things normal home users do, listen to music, surf the web, check email, chat, write word processor stuff, etc.

What am I saying? I think that most users use Beagle, or don't have a complaint with the speed of the system.

Perhaps all the main commenters here should subscribe to the Beagle mailing list, and have this discussion there. Otherwise, I don;t see what the point of having this discussion on the openSUSE list is.

I seriously doubt that the beagle devs are clueless about the lousy performance of the software -- the web is full of complaints from hither and yon http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aunofficial&q=beagle+slow+linux&btnG=Search -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M. wrote:

On Monday 14 January 2008 06:49:03 pm Aaron Kulkis wrote: Kevin Dupuy wrote: ....

...

...

Perhaps all the main commenters here should subscribe to the Beagle mailing list, and have this discussion there. Otherwise, I don;t see what the point of having this discussion on the openSUSE list is. I seriously doubt that the beagle devs are clueless about the lousy performance of the software -- the web is full of complaints from hither and yon

http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aunoffi cial&q=beagle+slow+linux&btnG=Search

Le' me se' what is brought up with your link:

That's a highly selective sample you have there, totally ignoring the vast majority which complain about beagle..and ONLY beagle, being a resource hog.

1) Ubuntu HORRIBLY SLOW...even after removing beagle! http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/ubuntu-63/ubuntu-horribly-slow...eve...

2) At the time, Beagle was slow, really slow. (07-31-2007) http://www.madpenguin.org/cms/?m=show&id=7976

3) All in all, SLED10 and Beagle represent a huge productivity increase for information workers. (11th July 2006) http://apcmag.com/3807/ultimate_desktop_search_suse_linux_enterprise_desktop...

4) I hate it. It’s still slow as hell, eats up a lot of ram, takes a long time to index stuff the first time (but it’s not intrusive because it only indexes while the processor is idle) (before June 29th, 2007) --- You have to install python bindings for beagle, and then the option will be there. On Ubuntu the package is “python-beagle”.

5) Anyone know what's up with that? (10.0 beta 2)

It seems like mix of outdated versions, slow machines, positive comments.

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, 2008-01-14 at 19:49 -0500, Aaron Kulkis wrote:

Kevin Dupuy wrote:

...

On Mon, 2008-01-14 at 16:03 +0100, Clayton wrote:

...

...

...

...

I'll go for not throwing up dependency errors if uninstalling, but it definitely needs to be in the default install. Most users will want Beagle. I doubt this - all the users we have hate beagle and either remove it or ask someone to remove it for them. Exactly. Other than a few on this mailing list, I have yet to meet ANYONE who likes or uses Beagle. The issue is not whether or not these people do or do not use a desktop search tool... it's because of the major performance impact that happens when Beagle is running.

I can really see the usefulness of the concept behind Beagle... especially for a few end users that I know and help out from time to time. The trade off though... The system performance impact they are all reporting is consistent... and it's consistent with my experience.

To those that say open a bug report... open it and say what? Beagle is too slow? Devs will want specifics (and rightly so). I have no specifics other than to say that Beagle is not suitable to be used on a regular basis because of the performance impact I and every one else I know have experienced.... which is basically what almost everyone here is saying... minus the few who do have Beagle working fine.

I would like to know how they managed it... if the answer is something along the lines of "I opened a terminal, su to root, nice -19ed it and then issue this other long string of commands..."... sorry... that tells me that Beagle should not be given to the masses by default. If it works by default, then why is it working for you and not the rest of us? What is different? I install a default install as given me by the openSUSE installer and Beagle is consistently a resource hog... not only on initial boot, but long long after as well. This is the same (in my experience) on clean installs with no user data, and on my desktop with its 1.2TB of legacy data across 7 drives. Something doesn't make sense here.

C.

I've had about 10 people installed openSUSE on their computer, (mainly family members), told them to contact me if anything happens, and NONE of them have complained about openSUSE being slow on their computers. These are normal users, who use their computers after coming home from work and to do things normal home users do, listen to music, surf the web, check email, chat, write word processor stuff, etc.

What am I saying? I think that most users use Beagle, or don't have a complaint with the speed of the system.

Perhaps all the main commenters here should subscribe to the Beagle mailing list, and have this discussion there. Otherwise, I don;t see what the point of having this discussion on the openSUSE list is.

I seriously doubt that the beagle devs are clueless about the lousy performance of the software -- the web is full of complaints from hither and yon

http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aunofficial&q=beagle+slow+linux&btnG=Search

For the love of all that is good and holy about our mailing list... WILL YOU PLEASE TAKE THIS INCESSANT BITCHING to the Beagle mailing list??? I'm tired of a) this constant repetition of an old thread when not all of us have a problem, yet it is taking up half the mailing list messages on a daily basis lately and b) all it does is just encourage Aaron to whine on and on and we get filled with delayed delivery messages from his woe-be-gone messaging system. Tired of this nonsense already. Move on or take action where it is appropriate already people! -- ---Bryen--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, 2008-01-15 at 22:29 +0000, not disclosed wrote:

...

For the love of all that is good and holy about our mailing list... WILL YOU PLEASE TAKE THIS INCESSANT BITCHING to the Beagle mailing list??? I'm tired of a) this constant repetition of an old thread when not all of us have a problem, yet it is taking up half the mailing list messages on a daily basis lately and b) all it does is just encourage Aaron to whine on and on and we get filled with delayed delivery messages from his woe-be-gone messaging system.

Tired of this nonsense already. Move on or take action where it is appropriate already people!

It is not a beagle issue - it is a SUSE packaging issue, we all know what beagle does and how it performs - for a huge number of people it is a huge pain in the arse. Dropping it from the distro would be popular, making it optional would be much more popular.

My opinion it is a crappy solution to a non existent problem, if people want it let them opt in rahter than forcing everyone else to opt out.

If there was a survey for things people removed within 1 week of installing SUSE then beagle would probably be number 1 or number 2 and that makes it a prime candidate for dropping from the default install.

If you're having these problems it is a bug and it IS A BEAGLE ISSUE! What is it you are thinking when you say it is a SUSE issue... Desktop Search is the future, any desktop user or tech journalist will tell you that. A non-existent problem? TO you maybe. If you keep your filesystem absolutely spotless, then you may not need it, but you're also about 1% of all computer users. The users that would not know how to opt in would be the prime candidates for who would use Beagle, those like yourself who would know how to opt out are more likely not to use it. -- Kevin "Yo" Dupuy | Public Email: Happy New Year from Yo.media! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, 2008-01-16 at 00:12 -0500, Aaron Kulkis wrote:

Kevin Dupuy wrote:

...

On Tue, 2008-01-15 at 22:29 +0000, not disclosed wrote:

...

...

For the love of all that is good and holy about our mailing list... WILL YOU PLEASE TAKE THIS INCESSANT BITCHING to the Beagle mailing list??? I'm tired of a) this constant repetition of an old thread when not all of us have a problem, yet it is taking up half the mailing list messages on a daily basis lately and b) all it does is just encourage Aaron to whine on and on and we get filled with delayed delivery messages from his woe-be-gone messaging system.

Tired of this nonsense already. Move on or take action where it is appropriate already people! It is not a beagle issue - it is a SUSE packaging issue, we all know what beagle does and how it performs - for a huge number of people it is a huge pain in the arse. Dropping it from the distro would be popular, making it optional would be much more popular.

My opinion it is a crappy solution to a non existent problem, if people want it let them opt in rahter than forcing everyone else to opt out.

If there was a survey for things people removed within 1 week of installing SUSE then beagle would probably be number 1 or number 2 and that makes it a prime candidate for dropping from the default install.

If you're having these problems it is a bug and it IS A BEAGLE ISSUE! What is it you are thinking when you say it is a SUSE issue... Desktop Search is the future, any desktop user or tech journalist will tell you

Just like the Ford Pinto's high-mileage feature, complete with exploding gas tank.

Sorry, deal-killers are not features, no matter how much happy-gigggle shit comes with them.

...

that. A non-existent problem? TO you maybe. If you keep your filesystem absolutely spotless, then you may not need it, but you're also about 1% of all computer users.

And until Beagle is reasonably bug-free, then it should NOT be part of the standard installation. Especially packaged in such a way that the package manage indicates errors if you try to opt-out of Beagle at install time.

Currently, Beagle is a bug-ridden pile of crap, which should NOT be part of the default install.

Version 0.2 implies something VERY different from 0.9... namely, that it ain't ready for prime time.

Seriously...the Linux kernel hit a high reliability status sooner than Beagle ... US Army, Bosnia was using a Linux box in 1996, by which time it had an uptime of over 450 days.

Which means that it had been up, without rebooting, since 1994.

How old is beagle now..and it's STILL falling into infinite loops. I don't care what the reason is, every time it does, it's due to a bug. And it really doesn't matter if it's because Microsoft has a closed file format for MS office documents... if Beagle isn't ready to handle office documents, and falls into an infinite loop because of it... and the devs KNOW this... then for normal users, .doc files should be SKIPPED by default, until beagle can scan those files without going berserk.

New users generally HAVE to store .doc files sent to them by Windows users... which sets up the user for a VERY bad experience -- which will not be blamed on beagle's inept behavior, but on Linux as a whole.

...

The users that would not know how to opt in would be the prime candidates for who would use Beagle, those like yourself who would know how to opt out are more likely not to use it.

Beagle is NOT READY

I say again:

NOT

READY

File A Bug. That's the last time I'm responding to this thread. -Kevin. -- Kevin "Yo" Dupuy | Public Email: Happy New Year from Yo.media! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Kevin Dupuy wrote:

On Wed, 2008-01-16 at 00:12 -0500, Aaron Kulkis wrote:

...

Kevin Dupuy wrote:

...

On Tue, 2008-01-15 at 22:29 +0000, not disclosed wrote:

...

It is not a beagle issue - it is a SUSE packaging issue, we all know what beagle does and how it performs - for a huge number of people it is a huge pain in the arse. Dropping it from the distro would be popular, making it optional would be much more popular.

My opinion it is a crappy solution to a non existent problem, if people want it let them opt in rahter than forcing everyone else to opt out.

If there was a survey for things people removed within 1 week of installing SUSE then beagle would probably be number 1 or number 2 and that makes it a prime candidate for dropping from the default install. If you're having these problems it is a bug and it IS A BEAGLE ISSUE! What is it you are thinking when you say it is a SUSE issue... Desktop Search is the future, any desktop user or tech journalist will tell you Just like the Ford Pinto's high-mileage feature, complete with exploding gas tank.

Sorry, deal-killers are not features, no matter how much happy-gigggle shit comes with them.

...

that. A non-existent problem? TO you maybe. If you keep your filesystem absolutely spotless, then you may not need it, but you're also about 1% of all computer users. And until Beagle is reasonably bug-free, then it should NOT be part of the standard installation. Especially packaged in such a way that the package manage indicates errors if you try to opt-out of Beagle at install time.

Currently, Beagle is a bug-ridden pile of crap, which should NOT be part of the default install.

Version 0.2 implies something VERY different from 0.9... namely, that it ain't ready for prime time.

Seriously...the Linux kernel hit a high reliability status sooner than Beagle ... US Army, Bosnia was using a Linux box in 1996, by which time it had an uptime of over 450 days.

Which means that it had been up, without rebooting, since 1994.

How old is beagle now..and it's STILL falling into infinite loops. I don't care what the reason is, every time it does, it's due to a bug. And it really doesn't matter if it's because Microsoft has a closed file format for MS office documents... if Beagle isn't ready to handle office documents, and falls into an infinite loop because of it... and the devs KNOW this... then for normal users, .doc files should be SKIPPED by default, until beagle can scan those files without going berserk.

New users generally HAVE to store .doc files sent to them by Windows users... which sets up the user for a VERY bad experience -- which will not be blamed on beagle's inept behavior, but on Linux as a whole.

...

The users that would not know how to opt in would be the prime candidates for who would use Beagle, those like yourself who would know how to opt out are more likely not to use it. Beagle is NOT READY

I say again:

NOT

READY

File A Bug.

I'm not putting that crap back on my system just to file a bug which they already know about. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 17 January 2008 12:02, Stefan Hundhammer wrote:

(I wouldn't have required a full quote of the last post, either). ^^ s/I/It -- Stefan Hundhammer Penguin by conviction. YaST2 Development SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Nürnberg, Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 21 December 2007 08:28, Aaron Kulkis wrote: <snippage>

...

I just don't understand why it works so bad on such a good computer and an average data load.

Simple, Gary.

It's poorly designed and/or written, because it's behavior while executing is very careless, and consumes resources far in excess of it's utility.

Beagle runs as if the whole reason for having data on a computer is for beagle to have something to sort, rather than that the purpose of beagle is to index the data created and used by the programs that the user actually wants to have the computer for.

The thing needs a complete overhaul.

Excellent idea, Aaron. I think I just read you volunteering. Here you go... http://beagle-project.org/Development -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Carlos E. R. schreef:

The Thursday 2007-12-20 at 13:29 -0600, Kevin Dupuy wrote:

...

OK, here's the issue: you're not "most people". I'm not most people. All of us subscribed to this mailing list are probably not most people. And most people don't name their files orderly, and put them in logical places. I've seen people who write something about a project about the Civil War and name it "project.doc". I would name it "Civil War Project.odt", and that person put the file in their My Pictures folder because that's where the Save dialog box is open to. They are the people who would benefit most from Beagle, and that's also about 90% of the computing population, so if openSUSE wants to reach that 90%, it a good idea to have Beagle installed by default and turned on.

True enough.

Hint; if you:

"touch ~/.dontrunbeagle"

then it will not run for that user. So I understand. :-)

-- Cheers, Carlos E. R.

I remember that one off the first things i did, when using 10.3, was uninstall beagled, and all alike them... The difference? I could use my PC when i saw fit, and not when after half an hour my mouse was moving a littele again.. I never missed one bit of it.. ;-) - -- Have a nice day, M9. Now, is the only time that exists. OS: Linux 2.6.24-rc5-git2-2-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: monkey9@tribal-sfn2 Systeem: openSUSE 11.0 (x86_64) Alpha0 KDE: 3.5.8 "release 25" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHa4CXX5/X5X6LpDgRAtdsAKC0UdCjGmiwKSuhYt4XisV2GUNt1ACgq6c1 ZIuBWLuc+jx1oVOyq9d2eBg= =9cOb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 20 December 2007 08:57:50 pm Aaron Kulkis wrote:

Kevin Dupuy wrote: ....

...

OK, here's the issue: you're not "most people". I'm not most people. All of us subscribed to this mailing list are probably not most people. And most people don't name their files orderly, and put them in logical places. I've seen people who write something about a project about the Civil War and name it "project.doc". I would name it "Civil War Project.odt", and that person put the file in their My Pictures folder because that's where the Save dialog box is open to. They are the people who would benefit most from Beagle, and that's also about 90% of the computing population, so if openSUSE wants to reach that 90%, it a good idea to have Beagle installed by default and turned on.

Catering to idiots only encourages them to continue their idiotic behavior.

Insulting 90% of people doesn't help to make your case. You have to understand that not everyone has the same goals in life as you, and also that different goals doesn't mean they are wrong. Would you buy vegetables from merchant that is expert in computing, but not so good with vegetables? I don't think so. On the other hand you can't deny that merchant needs computer for bookkeeping tasks. There is much more users that see computer only as a help in their activities, but they are not close to idea to become computer administrators, even in the smallest amount, to be able to use the box. They consider box good if it is help, and they are annoyed if they can do their task faster by hand that with a computer, so they are not asking for high performace either. That is what marketeers understood long time ago and that is the reason to have so many poor performing programs (slow and buggy). They are just better than doing job by hand. Just take time and observe inexperienced users. There will be many actions that you will laugh, like pressing backspace and deleting all until they come to misstyped letter and then retyping all again. I have seen that, and as guy was decision maker in my case I left him alone. It was easy to show respect and point better way, but some people take that as a insult, not help. They look at help as an attempt to make them feel bad, and than they adjust their actions and outcome is less than optimal for helper. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 22 December 2007 18:06:37 Stevens wrote:

On Saturday 22 December 2007 10:30, Rajko M. wrote:

...

...

Catering to idiots only encourages them to continue their idiotic behavior.

Insulting 90% of people doesn't help to make your case.

You have to understand that not everyone has the same goals in life as you, and also that different goals doesn't mean they are wrong.

Having different goals does not change the fact that they are still idiots. Nobody said they were wrong, just that they are idiots. If they did not exist I would go broke because I make my living from idiots who pay me to fix their stuff that they were too stupid to fix themselves

You need to look up the definition of idiot. Nobody can know everything -- Madness takes its toll -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Aaron Kulkis wrote:

Anders Johansson wrote:

...

You need to look up the definition of idiot. Nobody can know everything

True. We're using it in the colloquial sense, that being, "People who know far less than what the can REASONABLY be expected to know." Most computer users' behavior is equivalent to drivers who are not yet qualified to have a license...they need constant supervision.

Why?

Because they *REFUSE* to learn even basic principles of effective computer USE and self-protection (the equivalent of "don't drive through red lights").

None of these accountants and other office workers are professional drivers, but I can damn well assure you that NONE of them drives around town committing actions that one would expect from a car with a big, yellow "Student Driver" sign on the roof.

And yet, using a computer *IS* part of their job, but most refuse to learn diddly-squat unless the threat of being fired is held over their heads -- that's one thing I have really enjoyed about being a Unix systems admin/engineer.. most of the user base is engineers (mechanical, or whatever), and they see learning to use the computer as PART of learning to do their work....even if they prefer Windows over Unix. It's completely antithetical to the technology-hostile attitude of most of the Windows userbase (although how much of this is due to Microsoft's own user-enfeeblement attitude, I can't say for sure.)

I have to agree. I have provided software support at IBM and have found some users could avoid a lot of their problems, if they'd just learn to use their computer properly. You don't find many carpenters who don't know how to use a hammer and saw. A computer is a tool for people do to their work and it's their responsibility to learn how to use it properly. In my book, anyone who refuses to learn is refusing to do their job. -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Randall R Schulz wrote:

On Saturday 22 December 2007 15:14, James Knott wrote:

...

...

I have to agree. I have provided software support at IBM and have found some users could avoid a lot of their problems, if they'd just learn to use their computer properly. You don't find many carpenters who don't know how to use a hammer and saw. A computer is a tool for people do to their work and it's their responsibility to learn how to use it properly. In my book, anyone who refuses to learn is refusing to do their job.

Learning to use a tool is quite distinct from learning how the tool works. It's the "how does it work" / "how do I work it" distinction.

Very few people know how cars or elevators or the telephone network or radio or television or VCRs / DVRs or GPS or digital audio players or the electrical grid or the water supply or the sewage system or metallurgy or refrigeration or woodworking or the automobile fuel supply or package delivery or pharmaceutical manufacturing or a myriad other technological systems work.

Shall we deny access to these things to people who cannot pass a test on their inner workings?

No, it is the responsibility of the practitioners of IT to make its artifacts accessible and useable to people without the need for an understanding of the inner workings of those technologies.

Randall Schulz

How many are there, whose productivity depends on a VCR etc? I'm not talking about knowing how to fix networking problems. I'm talking about going beyond memorizing the one way someone showed them how to do something. I'm talking about expanding there skills, so they can do their job better. I have seen some really incredibly dumb things that people could have avoided by making a little effort to learn how to use their tools. -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Randall R Schulz wrote:

On Saturday 22 December 2007 15:53, James Knott wrote:

...

Randall R Schulz wrote:

...

On Saturday 22 December 2007 15:14, James Knott wrote:

...

...

<snip>

...

...

Shall we deny access to these things to people who cannot pass a test on their inner workings?

No, it is the responsibility of the practitioners of IT to make its artifacts accessible and useable to people without the need for an understanding of the inner workings of those technologies.

Randall Schulz

<snip>

Productivity? This is not about productivity. This is about access to information.

<snip>

What you're really talking about is a value judgement. But you don't have the right to dictate to the user of an everyday consumer technology the standards of understanding of the underlying technology that is required to avail one's self of the benefits of that technology.

<snip>

We're talking about everyday, end users. Everything from school children to harried parents to senior citizens.

If IT professionals cannot make this technology self-evident, they have failed.

And so far, we have far too many failures to answer for and rectify.

Randall Schulz

I have followed this thread with some interest. While I agree with the comments about value judgements, I think the comments on I.T. Professionals are a bit harsh. There is a branch of academic research into what was originally called the Man Machine Interface (usually called MMI) it may be called something different now. This not purely an I.T area and disciplines such as cognitive psychology, linguistics, philosophy, and mathematics are involved, and computing is only one area of interest. To give very crude and extremely broad summary of the underlying problem. The computer presents and uses information in a formally logically structure in a highly literal manner. Logic is fairly limited as a reasoning process. If human beings used only formal logic to reason it is rather unlikely that we would have got round to working out that we could make fire by banging rocks together. (c.f. Hume and the Induction Problem)... Logical reasoning is fairly alien to most humans. Humans use much more complex cognitive processes to understand their world and communicate. We have a limited understanding of what they are and how they work, but that is a different issue. Basically in the computer human interaction the computer is the 'idiot' (and not only an 'idiot' an alien 'idiot) and as can be observed from some messages on this list, some people have a bit of a problem talking to those they perceive to be idiots. A problem could be restated as not such as getting people to communicate with computers, but getting computers to communicate with people. The latter is very hard thing to to do, (partly because have not really worked out how to do this with people yet :-) ).... - -- ============================================================================== I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my telephone. Bjarne Stroustrup ============================================================================== -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHb47VasN0sSnLmgIRAleyAKDOPl7b6gF3+Nf/uABmDGJUHnWh1ACg5ccE SXFt5sJoliB8upmgpkT2sZY= =qay7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 23 December 2007 12:51, Stevens wrote:

On Saturday 22 December 2007 17:27, Randall R Schulz wrote:

...

No, it is the responsibility of the practitioners of IT to make its artifacts accessible and useable to people without the need for an understanding of the inner workings of those technologies.

Randall Schulz

Ahhh, the Holy Grail of computing. When you truly have such a machine, it will probably be imbued with enough intelligence to tell it's operator to piss off, it won't work for an idiot.

That would be its right, don't you think? And it would have moral agency and be subject to our laws and all that. However, what you describe is the Holy Grail of AI, not of that utilitarian computing. The latter just wants computers and other IT that works. At least, that's what I want and want to create.

Fred

RRS -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Sunday 2007-12-23 at 16:26 -0500, Aaron Kulkis wrote:

The problem is (to use my automobile analogy again), we have users who can't even be bothered to learn the difference between the brake and accelerator pedals, and do the equivalent of driving around with the parking brake still set, and then complain loudly that the rear brakes were destroyed when they caught on fire.

I sincerely have no sympathy for people who remain ignorant by choice.

I've taught users how to write simple shell scripts, and modify them to experiment (making the originals

Writing simple shells scripts is rather like learning how to change the oil yourself, or a punctured tyre - and I know of people that call the car insurance if they get a puncture because they don't even know where the spare tyre is; nor do they need to, they prefer paying a professional. And yet they are very good drivers doing a hundred thousand kilometers a year without a single accident. The equivalent to driving a car in computers is using a word processor, for which task there is no need at all to know how to write even simple scripts. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHcER1tTMYHG2NR9URAqA/AJ9dRj2ONLojfaVlxZJldDsoMhoM7wCfYay0 PjoOgydzReFEjwjPHlwv2TI= =YzGz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M. wrote:

On Saturday 22 December 2007 05:14:20 pm James Knott wrote:

...

I have to agree. I have provided software support at IBM and have found some users could avoid a lot of their problems, if they'd just learn to use their computer properly. You don't find many carpenters who don't know how to use a hammer and saw. A computer is a tool for people do to their work and it's their responsibility to learn how to use it properly. In my book, anyone who refuses to learn is refusing to do their job.

Well. Did someone told them that they will lose their job if they don't learn how to use computer properly, or that they will be demoted to jobs that doesn't require computer knowledge?

The problem is that those that should tell that, are afraid that such policy will be, sooner or later, trouble for them too.

Well, I've been in the workforce for over 35 years. One thing I've found is those who take it on themselves to learn more tend to do better. Those who won't make the attempt, tend not to advance. -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 22 December 2007 11:29:33 am Aaron Kulkis wrote: BTW, this discussion fits offtopic list, so I crossposted there and expect any answers there.

Because they *REFUSE* to learn even basic principles of effective computer USE and self-protection (the equivalent of "don't drive through red lights").

Nice example that doesn't apply for normal computer use. There is no life treat if you get computer virus. The 90% of computer users are not educated, nor have chance to learn that there is any need for education how to use computers. Every advertising is full of "this is easy, no need to know anything". Further there is no law that will require any knowledge from computer users when they go online, and there will be none as that will reflect bad on sales. I haven't seen anyone that faced with facts refused to learn how to protect him/herself when online, buy antivirus, antispam, firewall and ask me to install software. They are not rushing to install Linux, as games and some other programs they paid for are for other OS, but they understand once it is explained that they need protection. So if there are some people that should be given mental state names, that are for sure not computer users. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 22 December 2007 09:13, Anders Johansson wrote:

On Saturday 22 December 2007 18:06:37 Stevens wrote:

...

On Saturday 22 December 2007 10:30, Rajko M. wrote:

...

...

Catering to idiots only encourages them to continue their idiotic behavior.

Insulting 90% of people doesn't help to make your case.

You have to understand that not everyone has the same goals in life as you, and also that different goals doesn't mean they are wrong.

Having different goals does not change the fact that they are still idiots. Nobody said they were wrong, just that they are idiots. If they did not exist I would go broke because I make my living from idiots who pay me to fix their stuff that they were too stupid to fix themselves

You need to look up the definition of idiot. Nobody can know everything

As I tell my kids - there's a billion Chinese people who speak Chinese better than I do. :) Now back to this new dosbox find, thanks, Anders! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 23 December 2007 18:11, Terry Eck wrote:

From Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary: idiot, 1: a person afflicted with idiocy; esp: a feebleminded person having a mental age not exceeding three years and requiring complete custodial care.

I think you mean an ignorant person.

Nope. Idiot is the correct word to describe the vast majority of otherwise "educated" people who sit in front of a computer. Their actions fit the dictionary definition to a T. Just ask anyone who has worked desktop support. I know degreed professionals that will call up and tell me that they can't get on the internet when what they really mean is that they cannot access a web page somewhere. They don't understand what Internet Exploder or Firefox is but they know if they can get into Yahoo (which is their home page). They use web-based email instead of a local pop3 client only because they cannot understand the difference, even after it is explained for the umpteenth time. After all that, they still cannot understand that their email is in some server in Northern California (with Yahoo mail, of course) Etc ad infinitum. The scary part is that these people vote. I say again: IDIOTS -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M. wrote:

On Sunday 23 December 2007 11:03:42 pm Stevens wrote:

...

On Sunday 23 December 2007 18:11, Terry Eck wrote:

...

From Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary: idiot, 1: a person afflicted with idiocy; esp: a feebleminded person having a mental age not exceeding three years and requiring complete custodial care.

I think you mean an ignorant person.

Nope. Idiot is the correct word to describe the vast majority of otherwise "educated" people who sit in front of a computer. Their actions fit the dictionary definition to a T. Just ask anyone who has worked desktop support. I know degreed professionals that will call up and tell me that they can't get on the internet when what they really mean is that they cannot access a web page somewhere. They don't understand what Internet Exploder or Firefox is but they know if they can get into Yahoo (which is their home page). They use web-based email instead of a local pop3 client only because they cannot understand the difference, even after it is explained for the umpteenth time. After all that, they still cannot understand that their email is in some server in Northern California (with Yahoo mail, of course) Etc ad infinitum.

The scary part is that these people vote.

I say again: IDIOTS

Stevens,

Be careful calling the names and showing so little understanding how big is human kind knowledge.

Doctor, lawyer, financial advisor, teller, car mechanic, electronic repairer, plumber, electrician, roofer, etc, etc, don't complain when customer can't describe problem or his ideas using exact names, it doesn't matter how educated or not is a customer.

Doctor that doesn't know plumbing is not considered as unusual, but in your opinion the same doctor that doesn't know how to use computer is?! What's wrong in this picture?

Computers are far more complex than plumbing, even in the most rudimentary use. Book that describes computer basics has few hundred pages. How many pages is needed to describe plumbing from A to Z ?

carefull you don't insult plumber merry christmas dave

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 24 December 2007 03:06:41 am Rajko M. wrote:

On Monday 24 December 2007 02:56:18 am Dave Plater wrote: ... Merry Christmass to you too.

Merry Christmas and happy New Year, Dave. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 24 December 2007 04:05:52 am Dave Plater wrote:

Rajko M. wrote:

...

On Monday 24 December 2007 02:56:18 am Dave Plater wrote:

...

...

Computers are far more complex than plumbing, even in the most rudimentary use. Book that describes computer basics has few hundred pages. How many pages is needed to describe plumbing from A to Z ?

carefull you don't insult plumber

merry christmas dave

Don't worry ;-)

They know that computers are not easy as plumbing.

Merry Christmass to you too.

If a plumber connects a hot water system wrong it can explode an destroy the computer downstairs as well as half the house. Dave

Hmm ... It seems that I'm missing something, but forgive me and let me now how that can happen. I'm comming from country where plumber can connect hot water to wrong valve and it can burn customer, in the worst case. Energy supply to water heater is under control of gas or electrical installer, including all thermostats, and it is inspected by third party inspection and finally by gas or electrical company inspection, so there is quite a few people involved if anything happen, and they will do all they can to prevent bad things. BTW, I'll crosspost this again to opensuse-offtopic mail list. It is interesting discussion, but it belongs there, not here. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 24 December 2007 09:11, James Knott wrote:

...

Boilers requires a specific trade to install & service, because when water heats, it expands and releases steam, which cause a significant increase in pressure. A boiler that ruptures under pressure is comparable to a bomb.

Even worse, in some sense: it's a BLEVE!

...

RRS -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 24 December 2007 09:24, James Knott wrote:

Randall R Schulz wrote:

...

On Monday 24 December 2007 09:11, James Knott wrote:

...

...

Boilers requires a specific trade to install & service, because when water heats, it expands and releases steam, which cause a significant increase in pressure. A boiler that ruptures under pressure is comparable to a bomb.

Even worse, in some sense: it's a BLEVE!

What does "BLEVE" mean?

Got Wikipedia?? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BLEVE RRS -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Robert Smits wrote:

On December 24, 2007 09:26:53 am Randall R Schulz wrote:

...

On Monday 24 December 2007 09:24, James Knott wrote:

...

Randall R Schulz wrote:

...

On Monday 24 December 2007 09:11, James Knott wrote:

...

...

Boilers requires a specific trade to install & service, because when water heats, it expands and releases steam, which cause a significant increase in pressure. A boiler that ruptures under pressure is comparable to a bomb. Even worse, in some sense: it's a BLEVE! What does "BLEVE" mean?

BLEVE stands for Boiling Liquid expanding Vapour Explosion. It's what you get when you heat up, say, a Propane Tank Car until the liquid propane boils off enough vapour for an explosion. I've been present when a 1/3 section of railroad tank car sailed more than a thousand feet toward me.

I don't think a hot water tank will do that but boilers can, and plumbers obviously need to be properly trained.

Yes, they will. On the show "Mythbusters," they jammed shut the relief valve on a hot water-heater, and also disabled the thermostat, and put it inside a shack. The whole water heater took off like a rocket.. .the shack (built with normal construction techniques used for walls in houses, roof joists, etc) was completely destroyed. What was most interesting is that the roof stayed somewhat together, but there was a cartoon-like hole in the roof where the water heater went right through it like a bullet through a paper target.

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 24 December 2007 05:54:30 pm Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

...

...

If a plumber connects a hot water system wrong it can explode an destroy the computer downstairs as well as half the house.

It seems that I'm missing something, but forgive me and let me now how that can happen.

Boilers requires a specific trade to install & service, because when water heats, it expands and releases steam, which cause a significant increase in pressure.  A boiler that ruptures under pressure is comparable to a bomb.

In my country, hot water systems do not boil the water. And there is a relieve valve.

The same is here. The original statement that triggered my question is picked up from some radio add for union plumbers. Something on the line with, they are more expensive, but they know what they do, you are not in danger. The fact is that boiler (water heater) comes preassembled with thermostats, burners, or electrical heating elements, and pressure relieve valve. All plumber has to do is to connect heater to pipes. He is responsible if water pipe ruptures flooding the house, if customer burns hands expecting cold water, but not a bit if water heater assembly fails. If ever water start boiling, but relieve valve doesn't work, there are copper pipes that will rupture before main (heater) tank. I'm not sure is there intentionally created weak spot on the tank that will rupture before there is serious danger for the house. There is one on each steam cooker, it should be on water heaters too. Those engineers. They have thought on everything to minimize effect of failed elements. I don't underestimate good tradesman knowledge and time needed to learn the job, I highly regard those that are good in their trade, but number of knowledge elements (facts) that one needs to learn plumbing is similar to one that is needed for only fair (not good, not thorow, not deep) understanding of computers. That is the main point of my comment that if doctor doesn't know plumbing that is fine, but it is not if he doesn't know computers. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 25 December 2007 01:02:57 am Dave Plater wrote:

I just had a look at the suse factory repository and there is a version of beagle dated 24th maybe they got the message?

I looked in changelogs and I can't find any changes in last few days. It is probably automatic rebuild because some of libraries that beagle depends on was changed. It's holiday season Dave. There will be no many changes before Monday, January 7th. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On December 24, 2007 03:54:30 pm Carlos E. R. wrote:

The Monday 2007-12-24 at 12:11 -0500, James Knott wrote:

...

...

...

If a plumber connects a hot water system wrong it can explode an destroy the computer downstairs as well as half the house.

It seems that I'm missing something, but forgive me and let me now how that can happen.

Boilers requires a specific trade to install & service, because when water heats, it expands and releases steam, which cause a significant increase in pressure. A boiler that ruptures under pressure is comparable to a bomb.

In my country, hot water systems do not boil the water. And there is a relieve valve.

Boilers are not used to heat water, they are used to generate steam, and can reach quite high pressures. -- Bob Smits bob@rsmits.ca A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. wrote:

The Monday 2007-12-24 at 22:55 -0800, Robert Smits wrote:

...

On December 24, 2007 03:54:30 pm Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

...

In my country, hot water systems do not boil the water. And there is a relieve valve.

...

Boilers are not used to heat water, they are used to generate steam, and can reach quite high pressures.

The original statement was about plumbers and hot water systems, not boilers:

] If a plumber connects a hot water system wrong it can explode an ] destroy the computer downstairs as well as half the house.

And anyway, plumbers don't need linux :-P

-- Cheers, Carlos E. R.

this plumber uses it !!!!! -- Hans Krueger hkr@hanskruegerenterprizes.com mailto:hanskrueger@adelphia.net registered Linux user 289023 411024 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M. schreef:

I'm comming from country where plumber can connect hot water to wrong valve and it can burn customer, in the worst case. Energy supply to water heater is under control of gas or electrical installer,

Sounds familiar

including all thermostats, and it is inspected by third party

Sounds familiar

inspection and finally by gas or electrical company inspection,

Sounds familiar

so there is quite a few people involved if anything happen, and they will do all they can to prevent bad things.

Lucky you. Here they do all they can to blame the other guys. :-) Merry Christmas, Jos -- Jos van Kan registered Linux user #152704 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 24 December 2007 08:08:21 am James Knott wrote:

 Imagine going to your doctor and saying "I'm not feeling well, fix the problem" and not providing any further info.

Great number of conversations with doctors, or any other professional, or tradesman, start with similar type of sentence. I was serving customers for a quite large part of my working life, and I know that. It is doctor's task to take over from vague introduction that there is some problem and find out what is wrong. If patient would be able to do selfdiagnosis that there will be not doctors. How they do that? They never start to bomb patient with Latin names of problems. They don't start with assumption that patients know how to use even common language terms in proper medical way. They assume that patient comprehension level is what they can see from appearance, but if that doesn't work as expected they correct their language, ask additional questions, give more explanation. There is much more than this, but I'm not a doctor, so my examples how they explore problems are from a patient point of view. BTW, I'm missing a way to move this discussion from this list to offtopic. How to do that? -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 24 December 2007 08:17:21 am Stevens wrote:

On Monday 24 December 2007 02:45, Rajko M. wrote:

...

Stevens,

Be careful calling the names and showing so little understanding how big is human kind knowledge.

Doctor, lawyer, financial advisor, teller, car mechanic, electronic repairer, plumber, electrician, roofer, etc, etc, don't complain when customer can't describe problem or his ideas using exact names, it doesn't matter how educated or not is a customer.

Doctor that doesn't know plumbing is not considered as unusual, but in your opinion the same doctor that doesn't know how to use computer is?! What's wrong in this picture?

Rajko:

As Winston Churchill once said of England and the USA... "two great countries separated by a common language". It describes our positions on this subject.

I think that you fail to understand just how stupidly some "educated" people can act.

I know what is support. It was part of my job for a long time. I served people with various backgrounds. Everyone has right on bad days, personal limitations, bad teacher, wrong conclusion, etc. We all have some specialized knowledge, and it is the specialist that has to translate customer talk to something that can be logged and later issued as work order. What is customer educational status for unrelated field is completely irrelevant. It can help if it is result of guy being smart (as suspected), but otherwise it is just another customer. Show respect to a person, but never let them take ownership of a problem. Sounds simple, but it is not :-) Support calls that are comming from people with high social status, that are used to take over and lead any conversation, or are in position to hurt if not happy, are classic examples where taking ownership is not easy.

That characteristic is why, when I go to hire someone, I do not ask for a degree. I have found through bitter experience that being able to make it through college has nothing whatsoever to do with one's ability to think. It is that lack of a rational thought process which allows me to categorize those people as IDIOTS.

Idiot lacks mental ability to think. The 99% of all dumb things that support is facing is one time, bad day event. You can see many people doing the same thing, but it doesn't mean they all are permanently unable to comprehend what is wrong. It just means that many people have bad day once in a while.

Look into their eyes. If the lights are on, odds are someone is at home. If not, don't let them in front of a computer.

It is good if you have chance to look in the eyes, otherwise you have to be very good listener/reader to get the idea.

You may be too isolated in your life to have experienced this phenomenon and, if so, I envy you. It may just be that you are too young to have experienced it and, if so, I envy you for that, too.

Not young (half century is behind me), isolated (computer geeks have no friends is stereotype) or inexperienced (as stated above). Nothing to envy, anyway.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year from the great state of Texas

Fred

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year from the Show-me state. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Stevens wrote:

On Sunday 23 December 2007 18:11, Terry Eck wrote:

...

From Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary: idiot, 1: a person afflicted with idiocy; esp: a feebleminded person having a mental age not exceeding three years and requiring complete custodial care.

I think you mean an ignorant person.

Nope. Idiot is the correct word to describe the vast majority of otherwise "educated" people who sit in front of a computer. Their actions fit the dictionary definition to a T. Just ask anyone who has worked desktop support. I know degreed professionals that will call up and tell me that they can't get on the internet when what they really mean is that they cannot access a web page somewhere. They don't understand what Internet Exploder or Firefox is but they know if they can get into Yahoo (which is their home page). They use web-based email instead of a local pop3 client only because they cannot understand the difference, even after it is explained for the umpteenth time. After all that, they still cannot understand that their email is in some server in Northern California (with Yahoo mail, of course) Etc ad infinitum.

The scary part is that these people vote.

I say again: IDIOTS

I have a friend like that. She buys all sorts of things, such as MP3 players, DVD players, her computer etc. and gets little or no use from them, because she won't make the effort to learn how to use them. -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 22 December 2007 11:17:50 am Aaron Kulkis wrote:

...

I have seen that, and as guy was decision maker in my case I left him alone. It was easy to show respect and point better way, but some people take that as a insult, not help. They look at help as an attempt to make them feel bad, and than they adjust their actions and outcome is less than optimal for helper.

Here's a trick...

When you're dealing with someone who you want to teach something to...without ruffling any feathers... you just imply that you're going to give them a little bit of special, secret knowledge...and while not saying that specifically, you imply it, by starting out with the magic phrase, "Here's a trick..."

Notice how, by using that phrase, you became much more receptive to what I then told you.

Here time and again you mix trade skills and mental skills. Mentioned decision maker is unskilled in computer use, and most probably he/she knows that, but he is not stupid. His brain is loaded with other knowledge and he has limited ability to accept new, but again this is not sign of metal disability, just normal sign that humans have limits. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Aaron Kulkis schreef:

At what point is a user with 10-20 years of experience using computers expected to start behaving like something other than a complete novice who has never used an electronic device in his entire life.

Do you mean Noob, or Novice? - -- Have a nice day, M9. Now, is the only time that exists. OS: Linux 2.6.24-rc6-git11-3-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: monkey9@tribal-sfn2 Systeem: openSUSE 11.0 (x86_64) Alpha0 KDE: 3.5.8 "release 31" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHihxwX5/X5X6LpDgRAveXAJ4w+FF0s5LfWeasL9gcTs2VbwKoGQCeIxxt xVJqxPCd8NUteAlH720nrlU= =2Bdj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, 2007-12-24 at 01:34 -0500, Aaron Kulkis wrote:

Rajko M. wrote:

...

On Saturday 22 December 2007 11:17:50 am Aaron Kulkis wrote:

...

...

I have seen that, and as guy was decision maker in my case I left him alone. It was easy to show respect and point better way, but some people take that as a insult, not help. They look at help as an attempt to make them feel bad, and than they adjust their actions and outcome is less than optimal for helper. Here's a trick...

When you're dealing with someone who you want to teach something to...without ruffling any feathers... you just imply that you're going to give them a little bit of special, secret knowledge...and while not saying that specifically, you imply it, by starting out with the magic phrase, "Here's a trick..."

Notice how, by using that phrase, you became much more receptive to what I then told you.

Here time and again you mix trade skills and mental skills.

Mentioned decision maker is unskilled in computer use, and most probably he/she knows that, but he is not stupid. His brain is loaded with other knowledge and he has limited ability to accept new, but again this is not sign of metal disability, just normal sign that humans have limits.

USING THE TOOLS OF HIS JOB IS ***PART*** OF HIS JOB.

If you owned a racing team, would you continue to employ a driver who refused to learn how to handle a skid? Or who refused to learn how to use the appropriate transmission for the kind of car which he's driving? Or repeatedly hit the wall and other cars on the track, damaging YOUR car, because the only things he really understood were the gas pedal and the steering wheel, but refused to use the brake?

At what point is a user with 10-20 years of experience using computers expected to start behaving like something other than a complete novice who has never used an electronic device in his entire life.

What on this green earth gives you the right to call the developers of a desktop searching engine and app, an extremely complicated program many of us would not know the first thing of how to code, "a complete novice who has never used an electronic device in his entire life"? I hope this will be the last time trying to respond to you. Look, if you WANT Beagle, if you're interested in the app, but the perceived slowness is holding you back, by all means help out with Beagle, at least suggest things that could be done. If you don't want the app anyway, stop complaining. Thank you. -- Kevin "Yo" Dupuy | Public Email: Happy New Year from Yo.media! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, 2007-12-22 at 10:30 -0600, Rajko M. wrote:

On Thursday 20 December 2007 08:57:50 pm Aaron Kulkis wrote:

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Kevin Dupuy wrote: ....

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OK, here's the issue: you're not "most people". I'm not most people. All of us subscribed to this mailing list are probably not most people. And most people don't name their files orderly, and put them in logical places. I've seen people who write something about a project about the Civil War and name it "project.doc". I would name it "Civil War Project.odt", and that person put the file in their My Pictures folder because that's where the Save dialog box is open to. They are the people who would benefit most from Beagle, and that's also about 90% of the computing population, so if openSUSE wants to reach that 90%, it a good idea to have Beagle installed by default and turned on.

Catering to idiots only encourages them to continue their idiotic behavior.

Insulting 90% of people doesn't help to make your case.

You have to understand that not everyone has the same goals in life as you, and also that different goals doesn't mean they are wrong. Would you buy vegetables from merchant that is expert in computing, but not so good with vegetables? I don't think so. On the other hand you can't deny that merchant needs computer for bookkeeping tasks.

There is much more users that see computer only as a help in their activities, but they are not close to idea to become computer administrators, even in the smallest amount, to be able to use the box. They consider box good if it is help, and they are annoyed if they can do their task faster by hand that with a computer, so they are not asking for high performace either.

That is what marketeers understood long time ago and that is the reason to have so many poor performing programs (slow and buggy). They are just better than doing job by hand.

Just take time and observe inexperienced users. There will be many actions that you will laugh, like pressing backspace and deleting all until they come to misstyped letter and then retyping all again.

I have seen that, and as guy was decision maker in my case I left him alone. It was easy to show respect and point better way, but some people take that as a insult, not help. They look at help as an attempt to make them feel bad, and than they adjust their actions and outcome is less than optimal for helper.

-- Regards, Rajko

Thank you! -- Kevin "Yo" Dupuy | Public Email: Merry Christmas from Yo.media! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, 2007-12-20 at 21:57 -0500, Aaron Kulkis wrote:

Kevin Dupuy wrote:

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On Wed, 2007-12-19 at 18:10 -0500, Aaron Kulkis wrote:

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Stevens wrote:

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Today Kevin Dupuy wrote:

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From what I'm reading right now, I'm presuming either you have no documents, or they are all on your desktop. If you actually did work, you would love Beagle. I do.

I've been using Beagle since it's SUSE introduction in 2005 (9.3), and it is a really nice way to find any documents, emails, chats, web history, music, podcasts, videos, etc. that is really easy to find things.

Furthermore, as I mentioned on the "other" thread, I'm trying to figure out why Beagle takes up so much CPU and memory in some people's computers ALSO:

Today "Peter Van Lone" wrote:

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it's desktop search ... what's the big mystery? Have you been living under a rock for the last 2 or 3 years?

If you don't want/need desktop search, then fine. Many do. Beagle seems to be a quite useful example of a category of service that many many millions of people use. OK, a little clarification is needed. I neither live under a rock nor do I idle away my time. Nor can I fathom a need for Beagle when it is such a resource hog.

I am reminded of a friend who has been buying and using personal computers since the old twin 5 1/4" drive TRS-80 just so he could keep track of his crap. Nowdays he is no better and he uses some kind of file indexing scheme on his Windows box. I used to spend time there helping him with projects; after a day or two, I had all his stuff catalogued in my head and could find it for him faster than he could look it up. Ditto with my files that are strung out over 3 disk drives and in tons of email. For me, Beagle is a terrible waste; for him and others like him, it is probably a Godsend. YMMV.

I similarly have no problem finding any file I create which may be years since I last touched it.

The key is ORDERLY, LOGICAL creation and naming of both files and directory the trees in both my home directory and other "storage areas" (such as /local for stuff I download and want to keep from version to version but doesn't really belong in $HOME).

...

Fred

By the way, FYI Kevin: my system is: * Intel 2.4GHz CPU, 512MB RAM, Intel chipset * Suse 10.2, kernel 2.6.18, KDE 3.5.5 * kmail, 4800 files, 730MB * no Beagle

OK, here's the issue: you're not "most people". I'm not most people. All of us subscribed to this mailing list are probably not most people. And most people don't name their files orderly, and put them in logical places. I've seen people who write something about a project about the Civil War and name it "project.doc". I would name it "Civil War Project.odt", and that person put the file in their My Pictures folder because that's where the Save dialog box is open to. They are the people who would benefit most from Beagle, and that's also about 90% of the computing population, so if openSUSE wants to reach that 90%, it a good idea to have Beagle installed by default and turned on.

Catering to idiots only encourages them to continue their idiotic behavior.

90% of computer users are idiots, and that's not going to change since these people don't want to take the time to sit down and organize their stuff. And if the use openSUSE and realize they have to, they are likely to go back to Vista/Mac OS. -- Kevin "Yo" Dupuy | Public Email: Merry Christmas from Yo.media! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 23 December 2007 15:49, Kevin Dupuy wrote: <snip>

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Catering to idiots only encourages them to continue their idiotic behavior.

90% of computer users are idiots,

Hey! I resemble that remark... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org