On Wed, 8 Feb 2006, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

On Wed, 8 Feb 2006, Boyd Lynn Gerber wrote:

...

...

o mirrors situation [...] - Mirrors outside of Europe are not in as good shape as the European/German mirrors (bottle necks, corruption, de-synced), specially the ones with installation sources (many mirrors have ISOs, few have installation-sources), which affects many people trying to perform network installations. [...] I did not intend to intifeer or distract from this item with the my email on US mirrors. I had not seen the discussion/log or this item when I

On Wed, 8 Feb 2006, Druid wrote: posted. My intent was to let people on OpenSUSE know that this is a major problem and does not look good to people/business that I am in contact with. Trying to advance the openSUSE cause. You should not feel bound to your "homeland" mirrors. The glass fibre light does not run slower under water.

I agree but having 2-3 sites world wide that are good is not a good thing. The load should be shared by others. Your site is the best, I just fear it is overload sometimes. The load should be shared. We need a better network for the OSS version. Using the ones that work sometimes gives time outs or unavailability. I have to often use the IP address and not download.opensuse.org... As the ones received do not have everything that is needed. -- Boyd Gerber ZENEZ 1042 East Fort Union #135, Midvale Utah 84047

On Wed, 8 Feb 2006, Christoph Thiel wrote:

...

The load should be shared by others. Your site is the best, I just fear it is overload sometimes. The load should be shared. We need a better network for the OSS version. Using the ones that work sometimes gives time outs or unavailability. I have to often use the IP address and not download.opensuse.org... As the ones received do not have everything that is needed. We should probably delay the redirection on download.openSUSE.org and have

On Wed, 8 Feb 2006, Boyd Lynn Gerber wrote: the user browse the local ftp tree and only redirect on file request, to make sure he can take all files that are available into account. ATM d.o.o redirects as early as possible, i.e. if you access http://d.o.o/somepath it will redirect you to a server that has the path. But that server might not have all the files that are actually available...

Yes, sometimes the server only has some or a subset of what is needed for doing a YaST inst. I was trying to do an internet installation using a user.sel file as a starting point. I had over 20 packages that could not be installed because the were not on the server I was directed to. I have noticed on some upgrades that the files are unavailable as well.

The inital usecase for d.o.o (when I did the first implementation) was to have a generic URL for the announcements and to point the installer (YaST) to. But it actually seems people try to browse the inst-sources with it -- and end up on mirrors that are not completely in sync -- right?

Yes! -- Boyd Gerber ZENEZ 1042 East Fort Union #135, Midvale Utah 84047

On Thu, 9 Feb 2006, Christoph Thiel wrote:

On Wed, 8 Feb 2006, Boyd Lynn Gerber wrote:

...

...

We should probably delay the redirection on download.openSUSE.org and have the user browse the local ftp tree and only redirect on file request, to make sure he can take all files that are available into ... Yes, sometimes the server only has some or a subset of what is needed for doing a YaST inst. I was trying to do an internet installation using a user.sel file as a starting point. I had over 20 packages that could not be installed because the were not on the server I was directed to. I have noticed on some upgrades that the files are unavailable as well.

So you didn't use download.openSUSE.org as your installation source, but used download.openSUSE.org to find a mirror and than c&p'ed it to be the installation source. Right? [If you had used download.openSUSE.org all the way, it should have choosen different mirrors for different files, because it has a local cache where it stores all the information about the status of all files on all servers.]

Every time I have tried to use it all the way I have problems. It fails in many ways. I can not start the installation and leave. So I switched to finding a mirror and using it. At least that is managable to leave and have the person call once the error occurs. It is to hard to assist someone over the phone using it as you suggest. If I were to stay for the 6-12 hours of the installation it would not be a problem. But I have to earn money too.

If there is interest in this topic, I might prepare some slides to give a "speed talk" on this at FOSDEM.

I would love to hear it but, I am in the US and do not have a sponsor to attend.

...

...

The inital usecase for d.o.o (when I did the first implementation) was to have a generic URL for the announcements and to point the installer (YaST) to. But it actually seems people try to browse the inst-sources with it -- and end up on mirrors that are not completely in sync -- right?

Yes!

Alright, I'll put this onto my agenda...

Thanks, I have been a SUSE user/supporter since the first public release of SUSE(SuSE and all it's incantations, SLES) -- Boyd Gerber ZENEZ 1042 East Fort Union #135, Midvale Utah 84047

On Thu, Feb 09, 2006 at 12:27:43AM +0100, Christoph Thiel wrote:

If there is interest in this topic, I might prepare some slides to give a "speed talk" on this at FOSDEM.

I have been thinking of an xml file that could include all installation sources. Think http://easyurpmi.zarb.org/, but with GeoIP included. Unfortunatly my knowledge of XML (and using it) is very limited. I would very much talk to people about this on FOSDEM and see what can do what and how. If I would have had more knowledge, I would have had a working example. I understand that the file (or at least not all of it) might not be allowed on openSUSE or Novell. It could be hosted somewhere else. Yet that could be decided at FOSDEM (and after the standard for the XML is fixed) An extremely basic idea of this is put on http://houghi.org/mirrors/main.php. This does not use XML and many mirrors are not up to date, so don't use it as anything real. Advatages of xml indes of array's is that it can be used in many more applications then just some website. I can imagine a program where you just point an application to e.g. http://opensuse/files/sources.xml and get the correct mirrors for you. houghi -- Ingrate, n.: A man who bites the hand that feeds him, and then complains of indigestion.

On Thu, Feb 09, 2006 at 09:49:51AM +0100, Johannes Kastl wrote:

On 02/09/2006 01:53 AM houghi wrote:

...

An extremely basic idea of this is put on http://houghi.org/mirrors/main.php. This does not use XML and many mirrors are not up to date, so don't use it as anything real.

I like the idea, and it seems to work.

You could add a selection for the actual release (10.0, 10.1,...).

I know, however I would like to do it in xml see what the best solution is for now and in the future. If possible automated in some way. So for now you will have to wait or come up with a solution. ;-) houghi -- In seeking the unattainable, simplicity only gets in the way. -- Epigrams in Programming, ACM SIGPLAN Sept. 1982

On Thu, Feb 09, 2006 at 01:26:29PM +0100, jdd wrote:

Johannes Kastl wrote:

...

On 02/09/2006 01:53 AM houghi wrote:

...

An extremely basic idea of this is put on http://houghi.org/mirrors/main.php. This does not use XML and many mirrors are not up to date, so don't use it as anything real.

I like the idea, and it seems to work.

You could add a selection for the actual release (10.0, 10.1,...).

OJ seems very nice.

don't we have a similar thing with YOU?

Are the URL's that you see in YOU hardcoded, or are they downloaded from a file? Where is the data kept? houghi -- Ehrman's Commentary: (1) Things will get worse before they get better. (2) Who said things would get better?

On Thu, Feb 09, 2006 at 01:47:04PM +0100, Christoph Thiel wrote:

They are downloaded on demand. But things will change dramatically with the new package manager ;)

OK. Will the new package manager have the ability to read from an xml file? No reason to invent things twice. Also no reason to work on an xml file if you suddenly say: We have that already coverd. The file WE use will look like XYZ. Any information regarding this would be welcome. houghi -- It will be advantageous to cross the great stream ... the Dragon is on the wing in the Sky ... the Great Man rouses himself to his Work.

On Thu, 9 Feb 2006, houghi wrote:

On Thu, Feb 09, 2006 at 12:27:43AM +0100, Christoph Thiel wrote:

...

If there is interest in this topic, I might prepare some slides to give a "speed talk" on this at FOSDEM.

I have been thinking of an xml file that could include all installation sources. Think http://easyurpmi.zarb.org/, but with GeoIP included.

Unfortunatly my knowledge of XML (and using it) is very limited. I would very much talk to people about this on FOSDEM and see what can do what and how. If I would have had more knowledge, I would have had a working example.

I understand that the file (or at least not all of it) might not be allowed on openSUSE or Novell. It could be hosted somewhere else. Yet that could be decided at FOSDEM (and after the standard for the XML is fixed)

An extremely basic idea of this is put on http://houghi.org/mirrors/main.php. This does not use XML and many mirrors are not up to date, so don't use it as anything real.

Advatages of xml indes of array's is that it can be used in many more applications then just some website. I can imagine a program where you just point an application to e.g. http://opensuse/files/sources.xml and get the correct mirrors for you.

Let's continue this discussion at FOSDEM! One option would be to put all those pieces together into download.openSUSE.org (which already has some infrastructure in place that we could leverage, e.g. GeoIP). Regards Christoph

On Thu, 9 Feb 2006, houghi wrote:

On Thu, Feb 09, 2006 at 01:50:20PM +0100, Christoph Thiel wrote:

...

Let's continue this discussion at FOSDEM! One option would be to put all those pieces together into download.openSUSE.org (which already has some infrastructure in place that we could leverage, e.g. GeoIP).

OK. Will there be a specific time/place at FOSDEM? I have never been to such an event, so I do not know what to expect. I asume that it is not like a mailinglist where I just can start shouting what I have to say. :-)

We have a special slot in our DevRoom on Sunday (12:00 - 12:30), called "Speed Talks". Let's just try to present the topic in a 5-10 minute talk and then find a place to dicuss it with those who are interested. Regards Christoph

On Thu, 9 Feb 2006, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

On Wed, 8 Feb 2006, Christoph Thiel wrote:

...

We should probably delay the redirection on download.openSUSE.org and have the user browse the local ftp tree and only redirect on file request, to make sure he can take all files that are available into account. ATM d.o.o redirects as early as possible, i.e. if you access http://d.o.o/somepath it will redirect you to a server that has the path. But that server might not have all the files that are actually available...

A very good idea. A failing redirected single-file request could get overcome with the "retry" button then if d.o.o does a round-robin redirection.

...

The inital usecase for d.o.o (when I did the first implementation) was to have a generic URL for the announcements and to point the installer (YaST) to. But it actually seems people try to browse the inst-sources with it -- and end up on mirrors that are not completely in sync -- right?

It seems so. So the "real" d.o.o server needs to have (and deliver) only the most recent metadata, but not deliver all files himself.

The next feature request would be: make a "default=retry" configuration button in YaST2, to let us go to sleep after the first press and wakeup with a finished installation.

Yes, I would love that option. I once had to do the retry 20 times to get the one file. It took 24 hours to get everything. I fell a sleep a couple of times and had to hit retry till the file/s came across. Hard to stay awake after being up for 36-48 hours. -- Boyd Gerber ZENEZ 1042 East Fort Union #135, Midvale Utah 84047

Hi, On Wed, 8 Feb 2006, Boyd Lynn Gerber wrote:

On Wed, 8 Feb 2006, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

...

On Wed, 8 Feb 2006, Boyd Lynn Gerber wrote:

...

On Wed, 8 Feb 2006, Druid wrote:

...

...

...

o mirrors situation [...] - Mirrors outside of Europe are not in as good shape as the European/German mirrors (bottle necks, corruption, de-synced), specially the ones with installation sources (many mirrors have ISOs, few have installation-sources), which affects many people trying to perform network installations. [...] I did not intend to intifeer or distract from this item with the my email on US mirrors. I had not seen the discussion/log or this item when I posted. My intent was to let people on OpenSUSE know that this is a major problem and does not look good to people/business that I am in contact with. Trying to advance the openSUSE cause. You should not feel bound to your "homeland" mirrors. The glass fibre light does not run slower under water.

I agree but having 2-3 sites world wide that are good is not a good thing. The load should be shared by others. Your site is the best, I just fear it is overload sometimes. The load should be shared. We need a better network for the OSS version. Using the ones that work sometimes gives time outs or unavailability. I have to often use the IP address and not download.opensuse.org... As the ones received do not have everything that is needed.

My bottleneck is not the network, but the disk I/O. Due to the huge increase in size with opensuse, the 12 GB RAM is not enough buffercache anymore (was before, network output was up to 6 times the disk I/O), and always 1000 to 2000 users are in direct concurrence at the raid controller and the disk heads now. So usually I can't even use half of the 600 MBit bandwidth i got granted. The solution is very simple in terms of concept: just increase the buffercache to 32 GB - that would need a new machine with 16 RAM slots plus the RAM. But not in terms of money: machine + RAM is > 13.000 Euro. Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)

Hi, On Thursday, February 09, 2006 at 02:42:45, houghi wrote:

On Wed, Feb 08, 2006 at 06:57:49PM -0200, Druid wrote:

...

o Forum Discussions Result ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I think it is a pity that nothing from the discussion that was held here went into the conclusion or discussion. I realy was under the impression that we would just start with the forus, because the other forum members (exept for Viras) were absolutely not interested in wether we would do it or not.

Youre under a wrong impression then :) We did not reach the forum community with our discussion here. Especially not the people that put their blood, sweat and tears into the forums. This is, as one one of the forum maintainers (Viras) stated, because we simply used the wrong communication method (this mailinglis instead of a forum).

So my real question is: what good was the discussion here

It was very helpfull and detailed input on this matter. It was mostly constructive and gave a real good impression on what the openSUSE mailinglist community thinks. But (and thats a BIG HUGE but) it cant be that this is the only input on this matter.

if nobody looked at it closer

Again a wrong impression. Everybody that participates here looked at it. Including you and novell staff that needs to take action if we want our own forum.

and what entails that for future discussions that will be held here?

Nothing except that it showed us that we here on the mailinglist are only a small fraction of the overall community and we cant decide on matters that includes other fractions on our own. Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, Core Services "Rules change. The Game remains the same." - Omar (The Wire)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 jdd wrote:

Druid wrote:

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o Foreign language mailing lists ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I really don't understand the problem here (after reading all the irc logs) we need at least one foreign language mailing list for the very same reason we needed a foreign langage wiki: an enormous count of users don't even read other language than they own :-! and we need them as soon as possible. time ago SUSE was one of the main french distribution. Comercial problems with the french distributors made suse nearly desapear from France. I hope this will change, but not if we are so conservatives :-(

Jean-Daniel, if you carefully look at the log, I pretty much pointed out exactly the same, and so did Sonja ;) Furthermore, we agreed to create "language" lists for de, fr, it - IIRC Sonja took that action item. cheers - -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ _\_v FOSDEM 2006 -- 25+26 February 2006 in Brussels -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFD6vqKr3NMWliFcXcRAi96AJ9/9sfgO62Yf35g0E6Su8LorBzvsQCff+V+ 7A1xJsspP0BJGTBd4hx+iO0= =tVKR -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Pascal Bleser wrote:

Jean-Daniel, if you carefully look at the log, I pretty much pointed out exactly the same, and so did Sonja ;)

Hopefully I'm noty the only guy with this opinion :-)

Furthermore, we agreed to create "language" lists for de, fr, it - IIRC Sonja took that action item.

I didn't find this so evident in the logs. Really this logs looks a little too much (on my beleife) like the forum thread... quite generally, I think this should be exactly like I try to be with my childs. all what is asked for and is * not dangerous * not too many work for me I say yes. :-) if you don't, they do not ask anymore and they do behind your back. jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos

On 2006-02-09 22:28:15 +1100, Peter Flodin wrote:

On 2/9/06, jdd wrote:

...

Druid wrote:

...

o Foreign language mailing lists ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I really don't understand the problem here (after reading all the irc logs)

I agree, why even talk about procedures and making requests in bugzilla, how will you tell the people about the procedure? In English?

If we give them a wiki, give them a mailing list.

why? maybe the will happily use "talk" pages in the wiki to coordinate everything. than they wont need a mailinglist. Doing something just because you can do something isnt always the best solution.

Encourage Wiki maintainer (unless other nominated person), to be a conduit between english list and their own. eg Translate important announcements, bring important discussions from their language to the english one etc.

depending on the activities on the wiki, they might busy enough with just the wiki translations. and coordination for this is done by opensuse-wiki. darix -- openSUSE - SUSE Linux is my linux openSUSE is good for you www.opensuse.org

On 2006-02-09 22:53:50 +1100, Peter Flodin wrote:

The mailing list is for the users, not the wiki maintainers. My whole point is that if a language is worth a wiki, it is worth a mailing list.

If it is not worth a mailing list , I will use your saying right back at you for creating the wiki :-)

that is not true. if it is worth a wiki than someone volunteered for the maintainership. does this imply he volunteers for mailinglist maintainership aswell? No. looking at the many small wikis at wikipedia, i dont think we need to combine both. if the wiki is active enough and we see more than 2-3 people requesting the ml. than i am fine with setting one up. just my 2 cents darix -- openSUSE - SUSE Linux is my linux openSUSE is good for you www.opensuse.org

Peter Flodin wrote:

On 2/9/06, Marcus Rueckert wrote:

...

On 2006-02-09 22:53:50 +1100, Peter Flodin wrote: i dont think we need to combine both. if the wiki is active enough and we see more than 2-3 people requesting the ml. than i am fine with setting one up.

Good. No more discussion required. Wiki maintainers who also want to look after the mailing list just ask. If nobody asks well then no mailing list. In the end I think the outcome will be the same, all languages with active wikis will have mailing lists, how and when they end up there doesn't really matter.

absolutly. how can a non english speaker ask for a mailing list? where? of course, if there is a fr mailing list I will be on that one also. anyway the mailing list do not need any work or near. and if nobody use it, who cares? jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos

On Thursday 09 February 2006 08:07, Marcus Rueckert wrote:

On 2006-02-09 13:42:44 +0100, jdd wrote:

...

Peter Flodin wrote:

...

On 2/9/06, Marcus Rueckert wrote:

...

On 2006-02-09 22:53:50 +1100, Peter Flodin wrote: i dont think we need to combine both. if the wiki is active enough and we see more than 2-3 people requesting the ml. than i am fine with setting one up.

Good. No more discussion required. Wiki maintainers who also want to look after the mailing list just ask. If nobody asks well then no mailing list. In the end I think the outcome will be the same, all languages with active wikis will have mailing lists, how and when they end up there doesn't really matter.

absolutly. how can a non english speaker ask for a mailing list? where?

of course, if there is a fr mailing list I will be on that one also. anyway the mailing list do not need any work or near.

and if nobody use it, who cares?

just a few points: 1. there should be at least one guy in the french community with basic english skills to ask for a mailinglist.

you can happily replace french with ever other language out there. why? because every wiki needs at least one person that migrates the changes from the english wiki into their local wiki.

btw ... they have to ask for a wiki aswell and the best language for this is english aswell.

Exactly. And the way it started on the wiki was someone began translating a page (not realizing that he was changing the intended English version I guess), and I asked him to just stop, and created a new page for him. Then he began using that same style, and added on. Others did the same. When the number of translated pages goes up, even without saying something, I'm sure a wiki admin will notice and take appropriate actions. If there is a particular group that recently had their lang added to the wiki, then I don't think anyone would be surprised at, or even hold back on, a request for a ml. Not a big deal really, it grows as the community grows, without forcing a list or internationalization for the wiki that ends up completely empty.

2. that might be true for you ... but maybe not for everyone. so what is wrong with explicitly asking for a mailinglist? what is wrong with tie the decision to the activity of the community

with kind regards

darix

Joseph M. Gaffney aka CuCullin

On 2/9/2006 7:09 PM jdd wrote:

I was only asking for a mailing list for langages already with an opensuse wiki :-)

in my advice it should be created right with the wiki.

Seconded. I would be on the german one, too. OJ -- "A thing is not necessarily true because a man dies for it." (Oscar Wilde)

On Thu, Feb 09, 2006 at 09:11:27AM +0100, jdd wrote:

Druid wrote:

...

o subfs discussion

I personnaly _hate_ automounting.

however I have no problem with this being done for the ones who like it, but, please, don't make it the default for console only systems!

I would opt for default on and an easy way to turn it off with no difference between the way you install. Be it KDE, Gnome, CLI, ... houghi -- We call our dog Egypt, because in every room he leaves a pyramid.

On Thu, Feb 09, 2006 at 10:17:04AM +0100, Johannes Kastl wrote:

On 02/09/2006 10:04 AM Mathias Homann wrote:

...

Does that mean that one of the best features SuSE up to 10.0 had on the desktop (ok, MY opinion) will be gone in 10.1, with no real replacement?

No. Read the older messages in the factory list, there is a discussion about it. KDE and GNOME will have built-in-support for the new way, all users using other WMs will have to care for themselves.

That is the curent situation. However alternatives should be discussed in factory. From the minutes: Suggested alternatives: supermount, autofs, create a console daemon that will do the job of gnome-volume-manager. The problems are that autofs is poor documented, supermount status is unknown, and the console daemon would need to be implemented, it simply doesn't exist now. Any solution (e.g. how other distro's handle this) are welcome as long as it is NOT subfs. People who have alternatives: please let it be known in factory (as long as it is not subfs) houghi -- In Seattle, Washington, it is illegal to carry a concealed weapon that is over six feet in length.