On Aug 02, 06 16:55:51 +0200, jdd wrote:

however, what we could do is a "work on openSUSE" logo (or simply list on the wiki all the hardware that works on openSUSE without problem)

why not a "openSUSE aware" sticker and wiki page for dealers adresses. The dealers able to sell a openSUSE box could write them on it

How about this: Hey hardware vendor, do you know if your product runs under Linux? We can check it out for you! Contact for details. We even have nice stickers "tested on openSUSE LINUX" for you to put on your products. cheers, Jw. -- o \ Juergen Weigert paint it green! __/ _=======.=======_ <V> | jw@suse.de wide open suse_/ _---|____________\/ \ | 0911 74053-508 (tm)__/ (____/ /\ (/) | __________________________/ _/ \_ vim:set sw=2 wm=8 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org

add wrote:

SOTL a écrit :

...

Quality in the commercial world is being able for an idiot to install the product and make it work.

I think you forget that Windows come installed _with the computer_ without anything to do with the user. installing W$ in a home made computer is often a much more tedious task than Linux

Lets see you pop the old recovery disk in and then add required programs like MS Office and that is called installing Windows to the average computer illiterate senior manager. Maybe not to people on this list but that is what these people call it and these are the idiots that have the power to decide who does and who does not work in their company which decides if the new office or company system will be Windows or Linux.

however, what we could do is a "work on openSUSE" logo (or simply list on the wiki all the hardware that works on openSUSE without problem)

why not a "openSUSE aware" sticker and wiki page for dealers adresses. The dealers able to sell a openSUSE box could write them on it

jdd

Sorry you have missed a very important point which I guess is my fault for not putting in capitals: OpenSuSE is a down load hackers platform put together by technical professional for technical professional and as such does not contain all programs necessary to run all computers. SuSE is a completely different world. It is commercial software sold to technical illiterates including very senior corporate management which make decisions of the type the new corporate computer system will be Windows because I purchased one of those damn SuSE box distribution sets and it crashed my computer causing me to have to take my computer to a computer shop which took 2 weeks which cost the company 1 million US dollars and almost got me fired. Fortunately I was able to convene the Senior VP that my computer crashed cause my dog pissed on it. I am damn mad and I will fire anyone who even suggest that trash is usable trash. Not in my division. Get Microsoft and get it installed correctly because it work and that Linux trash does not. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org

Pascal Bleser wrote:

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SOTL wrote: ...

...

OpenSuSE is a down load hackers platform put together by technical professional for technical professional and as such does not contain all programs necessary to run all computers.

Err... could you elaborate on that ? What are you talking about ? Proprietary drivers ?

The SuSE teams knows the difference in content better than I do so ask them for exact details of the difference but as I understand it Open SuSE contains only open source programs. SuSE on the other hand contains all of OpenSuSE and non open source programs so is thus more complete. If the email I received from the SuSE development team is correct the win modem driver or what ever you want to call it is not ope source which means that it can not be included in OpenSuSE since OpenSuSE does not pay royalty which SuSE does.

As far as "programs" are concerned, SUSE Linux (it's still called "SUSE Linux" - "openSUSE is the community apparel around it) ships orders of magnitude more applications than windows.

Really, what are you actually talking about ?

...

SuSE is a completely different world. It is commercial software sold to

Eh.. well... SUSE is totally *not* a different world. If you mean SLED (SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop), it isn't all that different, given that SLED 10 is based on SUSE Linux 10.1.

It is that different IF you require non open source programs to make your computer run fully and correctly and you are a non teckie.

...

technical illiterates including very senior corporate management which make decisions of the type the new corporate computer system will be Windows because I purchased one of those damn SuSE box distribution sets and it crashed my computer causing me to have to take my computer to a computer shop which took 2 weeks which cost the company 1 million US dollars and almost got me fired. Fortunately I was able to convene the Senior VP that my computer crashed cause my dog pissed on it. I am damn mad and I will fire anyone who even suggest that trash is usable trash. Not in my division. Get Microsoft and get it installed correctly because it work and that Linux trash does not.

... and your point is ? That managers are clueless ? many are. That IT is a weird business made up of more cluelessness and sheer stupidity than any other type of job ? totally.

This is the part I find so difficult. SuSE supports OpenSuSE and provides much of the technical support for one and only one reason and that is that OpenSuSE is the basic building block of SuSE. SuSE is sold for money. It is a commercial product. SuSE operates like any other business. No profit then they go out of business which means SuSE no longer supports OpenSuSE. SuSE sells it product to people who are technical incompetent; people called senior management. If senior management does not like something they do not buy it. Just like you will not buy a car you do not like. If you do not buy it then that manufacturer does not make a profit off it sales which means that some non profit work that manufacturer supports will not be supported.

But if it's just to start a (SUSE) Linux vs windows flamewar, then this isn't the right place.

Normal teckie response. Total inability to understand that the kernel is one thing and that SuSE development is completely different. That SuSE is in business to make money. It is only by confronting the failures acknowledging their existence that a procedure for improvement may be developed.

cheers - -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ _\_v The more things change, the more they stay insane. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux)

As far as I can ascertain the major problem is SuSE and OpenSuSE’s development process. Take a look at kernel development at http://www.kernel.org/ One can easily see that the process is continuous. _________ The latest stable version of the Linux kernel is: *2.6.17.7 http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/v2.6/patch-2.6.17.7.bz2* 2006-07-25 03:40 UTC F http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/v2.6/linux-2.6.17.7.tar.bz2 V http://www.kernel.org/diff/diffview.cgi?file=%2Fpub%2Flinux%2Fkernel%2Fv2.6%... VI http://www.kernel.org/diff/diffview.cgi?file=%2Fpub%2Flinux%2Fkernel%2Fv2.6%... C http://www.kernel.org/git/?p=linux%2Fkernel%2Fgit%2Fstable%2Flinux-2.6.17.y.... Changelog http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/v2.6/ChangeLog-2.6.17.7 The latest prepatch http://kernel.org/patchtypes/pre.html for the stable Linux kernel tree is: *2.6.18-rc3 http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/v2.6/testing/patch-2.6.18-rc3.bz2* 2006-07-30 06:31 UTC V http://www.kernel.org/diff/diffview.cgi?file=%2Fpub%2Flinux%2Fkernel%2Fv2.6%... VI http://www.kernel.org/diff/diffview.cgi?file=%2Fpub%2Flinux%2Fkernel%2Fv2.6%... C http://www.kernel.org/git/?p=linux%2Fkernel%2Fgit%2Ftorvalds%2Flinux-2.6.git... Changelog http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/v2.6/testing/ChangeLog-2.6.18-rc3 The latest snapshot http://kernel.org/patchtypes/snapshot.html for the stable Linux kernel tree is: *2.6.18-rc3-git2 http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/v2.6/snapshots/patch-2.6.18-rc3-git2....* 2006-08-02 19:01 UTC V http://www.kernel.org/diff/diffview.cgi?file=%2Fpub%2Flinux%2Fkernel%2Fv2.6%... C http://www.kernel.org/git/?p=linux%2Fkernel%2Fgit%2Ftorvalds%2Flinux-2.6.git... The latest 2.4 version of the Linux kernel is: *2.4.32 http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/v2.4/patch-2.4.32.bz2* 2005-11-16 19:13 UTC F http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/v2.4/linux-2.4.32.tar.bz2 V http://www.kernel.org/diff/diffview.cgi?file=%2Fpub%2Flinux%2Fkernel%2Fv2.4%... VI http://www.kernel.org/diff/diffview.cgi?file=%2Fpub%2Flinux%2Fkernel%2Fv2.4%... C http://www.kernel.org/git/?p=linux%2Fkernel%2Fgit%2Fmarcelo%2Flinux-2.4.git;... Changelog http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/v2.4/ChangeLog-2.4.32 The latest prepatch http://kernel.org/patchtypes/pre.html for the 2.4 Linux kernel tree is: *2.4.33-rc3 http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/v2.4/testing/patch-2.4.33-rc3.bz2* 2006-07-28 23:21 UTC V http://www.kernel.org/diff/diffview.cgi?file=%2Fpub%2Flinux%2Fkernel%2Fv2.4%... VI http://www.kernel.org/diff/diffview.cgi?file=%2Fpub%2Flinux%2Fkernel%2Fv2.4%... C http://www.kernel.org/git/?p=linux%2Fkernel%2Fgit%2Fmarcelo%2Flinux-2.4.git;... Changelog http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/v2.4/testing/patch-2.4.33.log The latest 2.2 version of the Linux kernel is: *2.2.26 http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/v2.2/patch-2.2.26.bz2* 2004-02-25 00:28 UTC F http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/v2.2/linux-2.2.26.tar.bz2 V http://www.kernel.org/diff/diffview.cgi?file=%2Fpub%2Flinux%2Fkernel%2Fv2.2%... Changelog http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/v2.2/ChangeLog-2.2.26 The latest prepatch http://kernel.org/patchtypes/pre.html for the 2.2 Linux kernel tree is: *2.2.27-rc2 http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/v2.2/testing/patch-2.2.27-rc2.bz2* 2005-01-12 23:55 UTC V http://www.kernel.org/diff/diffview.cgi?file=%2Fpub%2Flinux%2Fkernel%2Fv2.2%... VI http://www.kernel.org/diff/diffview.cgi?file=%2Fpub%2Flinux%2Fkernel%2Fv2.2%... Changelog http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/v2.2/testing/patch-2.2.27.log _________ The 2.2, 2.4, and 2.6 kernels are still being improved. Now compare that to the OpenSuSE / SuSE process. Each level is really a one time assembly. It is not a continuous process just a one time process. __________ Now take a look at Debian’s process: http://www.debian.org/releases/ ____________ Debian always has at least three releases in active maintenance: “stable”, “testing” and “unstable”. stable http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/ The “stable” distribution contains the latest officially released distribution of Debian. This is the production release of Debian, the one which we primarily recommend using. The current “stable” distribution of Debian GNU/Linux is version 3.1r2, codenamed /sarge/. It was released on April 19th, 2006. testing http://www.debian.org/releases/testing/ The “testing” distribution contains packages that haven't been accepted into a “stable” release yet, but they are in the queue for that. The main advantage of using this distribution is that it has more recent versions of software. See the Debian FAQ http://www.debian.org/doc/FAQ/ for more information on what is “testing” http://www.debian.org/doc/FAQ/ch-ftparchives#s-testing and how it becomes “stable” http://www.debian.org/doc/FAQ/ch-ftparchives#s-frozen. The current “testing” distribution is /etch/. unstable http://www.debian.org/releases/unstable/ The “unstable” distribution is where active development of Debian occurs. Generally, this distribution is run by developers and those who like to live on the edge. The “unstable” distribution is called /sid/. __________ Now compare that to OpenSuSE / SuSE where there is only two level., assembly and assembled. Next take a look at Mandriva and Mandriva Club http://club.mandriva.com/xwiki/bin/view/Main/WebHome ___________ Welcome to Mandriva Club ! Mandriva Club is a place where members can download the latest Mandriva Linux distributions including commercial applications and plugins, ATI and Nvidia drivers, Club specific distributions, can gain access to a collaborative knowledge base http://club.mandriva.com/xwiki/bin/KB/ related to Mandriva Linux use, can gain access to commercial RPMs, can get special discount on Mandriva Store http://store.mandriva.com, can chat http://club.mandriva.com/xwiki/bin/Chat/ with Mandriva team, and much more... http://club.mandriva.com/xwiki/bin/Main/Faq *Join the Mandriva Club, download now and take the most of your Mandriva Linux system! http://www1.mandrivalinux.com/en/club/** * *Enterprise, corporate or public sector users*: please visit the *Mandriva Corporate Club http://corporateclub.mandriva.com* to gain access to Mandriva's industry leading, 5 year supported enterprise solutions such as: Mandriva Corporate Server 3, Mandriva Corporate Desktop, Mandriva HPC Cluster, and Mandriva Multi Network Firewall 2. ___________ Historically I was opposed to a subscription Linux but how is one to account for the necessity of inclusion of non open source programs such as win modem programs otherwise. Maybe some combination of a these developments along the lines of: 1. Both OpenSuSE and SuSE in a continuous process like kernel development 2. OpenSuSE (all open source) with 2 levels: development and testing 3. SuSE which takes the tested version of OpenSuSE adds in non open source programs such as win modems with access to SuSE download on a subscription bases. Just some thoughts but if something is not done soon SuSE is going to be just another toasty critter distribution. Another thought you people can debate this is you have interest without me as I have already express all of my ideas on the subject. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org

Pascal Bleser a écrit :

As far as "programs" are concerned, SUSE Linux (it's still called "SUSE Linux" - "openSUSE is the community apparel around it) ships orders of magnitude more applications than windows.

Pascal, your are late :-). SUSE Linux is dead, and the distribution is openSUSE for some weeks now :-) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org

Marcus Rueckert a écrit :

On 2006-08-03 08:48:56 +0200, jdd wrote:

...

Pascal, your are late :-). SUSE Linux is dead, and the distribution is openSUSE for some weeks now :-)

10.2 alpha3 will be called openSUSE. anything before is SUSE Linux.

thanks for talking to you.

darix

ok. however this seems quite complicated. Of course I know what is writen on the boxes :-) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 03 August 2006 06:16, Andreas Hanke wrote:

The difference between openSUSE and SUSE Linux is:

Naming is completely irrelevant. Call it 'the flying elephant' if it makes someone happier. Half of the discussions on this list seem to concern naming and thats just nuts. However, it is of interest if the amount of effort put into fixing bugs ('productifying') SUSE will remain on the same level it was before. Would guess that yes, it will - you'll keep the 'openSUSE' and the 'enterprise' version roughly in sync? -- // Janne --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org

Janne Karhunen writes:

On Thursday 03 August 2006 06:16, Andreas Hanke wrote:

...

The difference between openSUSE and SUSE Linux is:

Naming is completely irrelevant. Call it 'the flying elephant' if it makes someone happier. Half of the discussions on this list seem to concern naming and thats just nuts.

However, it is of interest if the amount of effort put into fixing bugs ('productifying') SUSE will remain on the same level it was before. Would guess that yes, it will - you'll keep the 'openSUSE' and the 'enterprise' version roughly in sync?

SUSE Linux 10.1 and SLED10/SLES10 are in sync. Now we work on openSUSE 10.2, 10.3, ... and at one time an openSUSE release (let's say 11.1) will be in sync with SLED11/SLES11. So, they are in sync, *if* there's an enterprise release. We do not sync with Service Packs - e.g. the SLES10 SP1 will not be synced with anything since openSUSE moves forward... Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, aj@suse.de, http://www.suse.de/~aj/ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

jdd wrote:

SOTL a écrit :

...

Quality in the commercial world is being able for an idiot to install the product and make it work.

I think you forget that Windows come installed _with the computer_ without anything to do with the user.

installing W$ in a home made computer is often a much more tedious task than Linux

I quite agree, having just been through it. It was mostly an exercise in stress-control. A friend of mine recently upgraded his motherboard in his Windows machine, a perfectly simple operation. Yet he ended up having to reinstall as his Windows system refused to boot from the new board (did not recognise the disk controller). /Per Jessen, Zürich --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org

Martin Schlander wrote:

Onsdag 02 august 2006 16:37 skrev SOTL:

...

Any way these are some thoughts on why SuSE is going the route of Red Hat.

I've made similar points to the article before: that having a good home-user

A major issue is calling individual computer users home-users. The relevant people are corporate executives not teen agers setting at home.

product is strategically important to get into the enterprise. And that is the reason why Mark Shuttleworth has invested in shipping cds all over the place (I think there must be more doo-doo-brown Ubuntu cds than there are computers on this planet).

However I agree with the decision by Novell concerning binary-only kernel-modules - and before long Ubuntu will probably (hopefully) be forced to make the same decision.

I think you're way too fast with claims of SUSE going the Red Hat route. Most of us agree that 10.1 has been horrific all in all. But this is only _one_ release.

Why is 10.1 bad? It should have been an improvement on 10.0. It was not. Based on this why should one assume that 10.2 will be an improvement on 10.0 or even 10.1? I do not. My assumption is that 10.2 will be a bigger disaster than 10.1 is simply because developers are not interested in correcting the problems with 10.1 but are interested in having the latest woom zoom packages and features which then will not install. Yesterday I attempted to upgrade a OpenSuSE 10.1 beta 8 working installation to SuSE 10.1 only to have the system crash because packages were deleted from SuSE 10.1 that were in OpenSuSE 10.1 beta 8. I then did a reinstall and found since I am not in the old office with a DSL line (we should have DSL next week) that a US Robotics 52v PCI internal modem which my Red Hat 6.0 distribution installed correctly is now some 7 or is it 10 years later unsupported. One step forward two steps backward and the dance goes on.

Wait and see if 10.2 won't be the greatest distro - or should we say the greatest OS - ever.. It has all the possibility in the world to become so. If 10.2 is screwed up too _then_ we have a problem.

Dreamer

And look at the 10.1 problems - apart from the kernel module decision - all the problems had one reason: (testing for) SLED. Fortunately SLED has a two year release cycle and thus won't screw up our distro again - at least for a while.

Give (open)SUSE the benefit of the doubt - at least until 10.2 - and I'm sure you'll see your conclusions are wrong.

Martin / cb400f

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SOTL wrote:

...

I've made similar points to the article before: that having a good home-user

A major issue is calling individual computer users home-users. The relevant people are corporate executives not teen agers setting at home.

Actually it's not - not for the problem you described wrt the winmodem. A corporate executive does not get to see his laptop until it works perfectly. His paid Linux support-staff will have 1) installed OpenSUSE and 2) then installed the binary-only drivers. No problem - same procedure for Windows. I've recently had to re-install W2K on our last remaining Windows workstation - it certainly does not work out-of-the-box. /Per Jessen, Zürich --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org

Silviu Marin-Caea wrote:

On Thursday 03 August 2006 17:52, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Actually it's not - not for the problem you described wrt the winmodem. A corporate executive does not get to see his laptop until it works perfectly. His paid Linux support-staff will have 1) installed OpenSUSE

Worng! WORNG!

A corporate executive must have SLED10. Not openSUSE, not SUSE Linux.

Would you care to elaborate? Whether or not an enterprise uses SLED or openSUSE is only a matter of IT policy, not features nor anything else. If the stability, service and support of SLED is preferred, then obviously one should chose SLED, otherwise there's no reason to. /Per Jessen, Zürich --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org

SOTL wrote:

Gee I do not know what companies you work

I work for/run/own my own company with just short of 20 staff.

for but all of electrical engineer companies I have worked for we had to ascertain what equipment would do the job, ascertain what software was required to perform the stated function, purchase the equipment, install the software, make the soft ware work, and do this while making a profit for the division or we were out the door.

And your point is? (and btw, please don't top-post) /Per Jessen, Zürich --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org

Kenneth Schneider wrote:

...

Since when does a _troll_ need a point to start a controversy?

Thanks for that Ken - sometimes I'm a little slow in recognising these guys .... /Per Jessen, Zürich --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org

Silviu Marin-Caea wrote:

On Monday 07 August 2006 15:52, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Would you care to elaborate? Whether or not an enterprise uses SLED or openSUSE is only a matter of IT policy, not features nor anything else.

The above would be nice if it were true but it is not true.

OpenSuSE does not contain any non open source programs ie ones that may not be used without paying royalties. SLED is a commercial program which does contain non open source programs ie ones in which one must pay royalties to use. If you do not need the non open source programs then of course they are then equivalent but if of course you need such programs to make your system work then they are not equivalent. Last I heard most win modem programs are non open source. That would seem to imply that if one wanted a laptop to use its internal to connect to the internet and that one was not a geek then would need to purchase SuSE. Apparently it is very difficult for people to understand that there are two ways of making an operating system work - become a geek or pay a geek to do the work. If one has different interest say is a medical doctor et then one feel of expertise is not being a geek meaning that it is preferable to pay someone else to be the geek. Realize OpenSuSE is a geek thing. SLED is a non geek thing. That is the program that geeks sell to non geeks who have no desires to be a geek so that the geeks can buy non geek things like food and bear. Very simple stuff. No sale of non geek programs to non geeks then the geeks do not get to eat or drink bear.

...

If the stability, service and support of SLED is preferred

I would think that for a corporate executive's laptop, stability, service and support of SLED is preferred.

You seem to view things only from a position of administering a small IT environment. Even so, it's no fun reinstalling stations every two years, when the consummer distro is out of maintenance.

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Marcus Meissner wrote:

On Tue, Aug 08, 2006 at 10:04:00AM -0400, SOTL wrote:

...

Silviu Marin-Caea wrote:

...

On Monday 07 August 2006 15:52, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Would you care to elaborate? Whether or not an enterprise uses SLED or openSUSE is only a matter of IT policy, not features nor anything else.

The above would be nice if it were true but it is not true.

OpenSuSE does not contain any non open source programs ie ones that may not be used without paying royalties.

SLED is a commercial program which does contain non open source programs ie ones in which one must pay royalties to use.

If you do not need the non open source programs then of course they are then equivalent but if of course you need such programs to make your system work then they are not equivalent.

Last I heard most win modem programs are non open source.

SLED does not have binary only kernel modules either (with 1 exception), so no WinModem binary support in SLED 10.

...

That would seem to imply that if one wanted a laptop to use its internal to connect to the internet and that one was not a geek then would need to purchase SuSE.

We would really like to make everything work out of the box but we have to work with the current laws. Paying us does not help here.

Ciao, Marcus

Something is drastly wrong here. Mandrake 10.1 commerical which is over 3 years old has the programs required to make Thinkpad wind modems work and they do work.. SuSE 10.1 commerical does not have such programs and it is only 3 months old and it does not work. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org

Andreas Hanke wrote:

Hi,

SOTL schrieb:

...

Something is drastly wrong here.

Mandrake 10.1 commerical which is over 3 years old has the programs required to make Thinkpad wind modems work and they do work..

SuSE 10.1 commerical does not have such programs and it is only 3 months old and it does not work.

Continuing like this is pointless.

Not really I am not trying to solve a technical issue by these posting.. I am trying to solve a SuSE structural issue of why was the technical issue was not solved during development. Why after SuSE being notified with bug notifications in 9.2, 10.0 and alpha, and beta is there still issues with the same device in 10.1

WHICH modem is it? There are different ThinkPads with different modems.

Please install SUSE, execute "/usr/sbin/hwinfo --modem" and post the output here.

This will show us which modem it is, which kernel module it needs and then we can jointly investigate why it is not included.

Andreas Hanke

All I can do this week is bitch. I have other technical issues to solve first. This thread started on a fortunate or unfortunate publication of a news article. If it had not been for that article I would have started this completely differently next week. If this list list is the inappropriate location for airing such gross system failures send me the URL, address, or contact information Senior Vice president of the group in which the idiot that is responsible for this incompetence resides. It is hard to believe that something that worked 3, 5, 10 years back is now so unfunctional. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org

SOTL wrote:

I am trying to solve a SuSE structural issue of why was the technical issue was not solved during development.

Why after SuSE being notified with bug notifications in 9.2, 10.0 and alpha, and beta is there still issues with the same device in 10.1

I know I'm most likely flogging a dead horse, but why don't you list the bugreport#s so everyone, SUSE in particular, can check what the situation is?

If this list list is the inappropriate location for airing such gross system failures send me the URL, address, or contact information

http://bugzilla.novell.com/ But I urge you first to read Eric S. Raymonds "How To Ask Questions The Smart Way" : http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html /Per Jessen, Zürich --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org

On Wed, 2006-08-09 at 08:20 +0200, jdd wrote:

Per Jessen a écrit :

...

SOTL wrote:

...

I am trying to solve a SuSE structural issue of why was the technical issue was not solved during development.

Why after SuSE being notified with bug notifications in 9.2, 10.0 and alpha, and beta is there still issues with the same device in 10.1

I know I'm most likely flogging a dead horse, but why don't you list the bugreport#s so everyone, SUSE in particular, can check what the situation is?

did you miss the post where he said that he forgot the login/pass and create a new login each time? this is a good user practice :-()

Perhaps a good portion of the problems that SOTL has lay between the keyboard and the chair. -- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org

T. Lodewick wrote:

SOTL schrieb:

...

Silviu Marin-Caea wrote:

...

On Monday 07 August 2006 15:52, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Would you care to elaborate? Whether or not an enterprise uses SLED or openSUSE is only a matter of IT policy, not features nor anything else.

The above would be nice if it were true but it is not true.

OpenSuSE does not contain any non open source programs ie ones that may not be used without paying royalties.

SLED is a commercial program which does contain non open source programs ie ones in which one must pay royalties to use.

If you do not need the non open source programs then of course they are then equivalent but if of course you need such programs to make your system work then they are not equivalent.

Last I heard most win modem programs are non open source.

That would seem to imply that if one wanted a laptop to use its internal to connect to the internet and that one was not a geek then would need to purchase SuSE.

Apparently it is very difficult for people to understand that there are two ways of making an operating system work - become a geek or pay a geek to do the work.

If one has different interest say is a medical doctor et then one feel of expertise is not being a geek meaning that it is preferable to pay someone else to be the geek.

Realize OpenSuSE is a geek thing.

SLED is a non geek thing. That is the program that geeks sell to non geeks who have no desires to be a geek so that the geeks can buy non geek things like food and bear.

Very simple stuff. No sale of non geek programs to non geeks then the geeks do not get to eat or drink bear.

can U ( or someone on the list ) translate that into a small term to the point what you wnated to say with it ? I can't get the point of view.

thanks, JBScout aka Thomy

Keep trying by reread the abovr. If your are still confused ask any non geek and let them explain it to you. I have done my best to and there is a complete failure to comprehend. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 08 August 2006 21:27, SOTL wrote:

On the other hand if I purchase a box set of comerical SuSE ther is an implied warranty and in many locations a guarantee warranty by law that the product will perform as expected. If it does not then the product is in violation of its warranty and may be subject to none to severe legal penalties depending on purchase location. If it can be demonstrated that the product failure was due to gross neglance (inability to connect to the internet by modem) and that resulted in substantial damages to the consumer then it may be that the consumer is not only legally able to obtain their purchase price of the good back but that the consumer may be in fact be able to recover consiquental damages. To translate this latter assume Mr. Consummer purchases a good for $100.00 which does not perform as expected due to gross neglance in the manufacture of the good and the manufacture was aware of this then the manufacture may be liable to the consumer for the $1,000,000.00 consequential damage that non performance of the good caused.

My modem works fine under 10.1, although I don't need to use it unless my ADSL fails. I suggest you speak to the modem manufacturer to determine where the problem is, although I have an idea what it might be. I think you do too. Cheers Pete --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 08 August 2006 20:24, SOTL wrote:

Keep trying by reread the abovr.

If your are still confused ask any non geek and let them explain it to you.

I have done my best to and there is a complete failure to comprehend.

View it like this: The modem driver is a closed source--binary blob. That just SUCKS MONKEY ASS. It can cause all sorts of problems in the kernel that would affect the whole OS. The Right Way (tm) to have it in Linux would be Open Source modem driver. You would think that the modem manufacturers would have the decency to open-source their drivers for their piece of shit modems, because they're *dying* hardware anyway. No innovation is going on there, it's just riding into the sunset (to rot peacefully). So what happened until now is this: kernel developers and distributions were tolerating binary blobs, to have working modems. But the blobs don't seem to transform into Open Source. They want to have kid blobs. This would be just very bad for kernel. Kernel has been advancing so nicely until now because drivers in it are open source and can be changed, optimized. If too many drivers become Closed Source, the kernel would be suffocated and you would not enjoy the same stability that you do now. What would happen then? You would start to bitch about the kernel right? What is happening now: recognizing the danger that the binary blobs pose, the kernel developers are starting to fight it. A temporary casualty is your modem--it does not work with the distro out of the box. It still can be made to work, by installing the binary-blob. But remember, the Right Way is to have the driver open source. Perhaps the stupid modem manufacturers would "get it" and do that. Then the driver would be into the kernel in the next week, it would work out-of-the-box on every distribution, it would have less bugs, all the good that comes out of Open Source. Again, view it like this: It's not SUSE's fault that your driver is not included, it's the stupid modem manufacturer's fault. Bitch to them! Really, seriously. That is what I do. Explain to them that their attitude about the Linux driver is causing you trouble using their product, and that you will buy something else. That's what I did! I bought an external modem. Who lost money in this? The stupid winmodem manufacturers. And I, because an external modem is more expensive and more inconvenient, with another box and cables around. But I did it because I like Open Source and I understand and see the greater good it does. I care much more about it than I care for some stupid winmodem manufacturer. I know you have the feeling that people on the list don't get your point. I do get it, and it's valid. But I don't agree with the method you suggest--going forward with accepting more binary blobs into the kernel. It's very, very damaging, long term. I believe it's better to bear with the small pain right now and be healthy later, than get morphine. Did this bring a clarification to the problem? --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 09 August 2006 00:07, Per Jessen wrote:

Silviu Marin-Caea wrote:

...

On Monday 07 August 2006 15:52, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Would you care to elaborate? Whether or not an enterprise uses SLED or openSUSE is only a matter of IT policy, not features nor anything else. If the stability, service and support of SLED is preferred

I would think that for a corporate executive's laptop, stability, service and support of SLED is preferred.

Like I said, that is purely a matter of IT-policy - definitely not the corporate executive's preferences :-)

Rephrase: I would think that for a corporate executive's laptop, stability, service and support of SLED is preferred by the IT.

...

You seem to view things only from a position of administering a small IT environment. Even so, it's no fun reinstalling stations every two years, when the consummer distro is out of maintenance.

And to be quite frank, you seem to view things a little blinkered - why would you need to reinstall just because the consumer distro is out of maintenance? We have a number of systems where that has long been the case - no trouble maintaining them sofar. The oldest is a server still running 7.1.

Now assume that business requires that you need to install something new on that. It is a PITA, too much effort & time. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org

...

Now assume that business requires that you need to install something new on that. It is a PITA, too much effort & time.

assume you want to install a new thing on w98?

I don't hope for you to have ave to install XP on an old laptop...

finding XP drivers for old hardware is a nightmare, when SUSE installs most of the HW silently

You know... it's funny how people are. SUSE installs off the DVD and IDs and installs the drivers for 99% of the hardware they have.. and fails on one thing. For that one thing they need to go out on to the internet and find/download the driver (usually there is one... like the nVidia driver for example) or come to the list here for a little assistnace. They encounter this and get all hot and bothered. Yet... Yet if they go and install the latest version of XP (with SP2 slipstreamed in even) they still have to go out and download/install.. the video driver - the default XP video driver is unusable. They have to download/find/install the motherboard drivers to get the network and sound working (assuming they are using the onboard NIC and AC/97 sound) - and they are SOL if they don't have the CD/DVD that came with the motherboard because they will not be able to get the network up and running using the stuff that is on the XP master disk. If they are unlucky and have an older version of XP (pre SP2), their USB devices won't work right until they install a sep USB driver. They will often need to install sep drivers for the modem.. the scanner, the printer (and god help them if they have the HP AllInOne printer/scanner/fax thing... and try to get that working "out of the box" in XP). Bluetooth? Ha ha ha... yah right... good luck getting that to work on XP without having to do anything. The list goes on and on.... and apparently it's OK to have to do this with Windows, yet when one thing poses a little obstacle in Linux - if the modem doesn't work "out of the box" because you have to buy/downlaod/install a binary driver... or the video doesn't work in full 3D mode because you have to download and install a sep binary driver, the world comes to an end, they drop Linux like it was poisoned... and go back to Windows all while grumping that Linux is crap. Well, they are fooling themselves. Let them rant because they are happy being blinded by their own misconceptions. C. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 09 August 2006 12:59 am, Clayton wrote:

...

...

Now assume that business requires that you need to install something new on that. It is a PITA, too much effort & time.

assume you want to install a new thing on w98?

I don't hope for you to have ave to install XP on an old laptop...

finding XP drivers for old hardware is a nightmare, when SUSE installs most of the HW silently

You know... it's funny how people are. SUSE installs off the DVD and IDs and installs the drivers for 99% of the hardware they have.. and fails on one thing. For that one thing they need to go out on to the internet and find/download the driver (usually there is one... like the nVidia driver for example) or come to the list here for a little assistnace. They encounter this and get all hot and bothered.

Yet...

Yet if they go and install the latest version of XP (with SP2 slipstreamed in even) they still have to go out and download/install.. the video driver - the default XP video driver is unusable. They have to download/find/install the motherboard drivers to get the network and sound working (assuming they are using the onboard NIC and AC/97 sound) - and they are SOL if they don't have the CD/DVD that came with the motherboard because they will not be able to get the network up and running using the stuff that is on the XP master disk. If they are unlucky and have an older version of XP (pre SP2), their USB devices won't work right until they install a sep USB driver. They will often need to install sep drivers for the modem.. the scanner, the printer (and god help them if they have the HP AllInOne printer/scanner/fax thing... and try to get that working "out of the box" in XP). Bluetooth? Ha ha ha... yah right... good luck getting that to work on XP without having to do anything.

The list goes on and on.... and apparently it's OK to have to do this with Windows, yet when one thing poses a little obstacle in Linux - if the modem doesn't work "out of the box" because you have to buy/downlaod/install a binary driver... or the video doesn't work in full 3D mode because you have to download and install a sep binary driver, the world comes to an end, they drop Linux like it was poisoned... and go back to Windows all while grumping that Linux is crap.

Well, they are fooling themselves. Let them rant because they are happy being blinded by their own misconceptions.

C.

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All I can say is WOW... That was great... Can I use part of that in a sig? ;) Joe

Martin Schlander wrote:

Onsdag 02 august 2006 16:37 skrev SOTL:

...

Any way these are some thoughts on why SuSE is going the route of Red Hat.

I've made similar points to the article before: that having a good home-user product is strategically important to get into the enterprise. And that is the reason why Mark Shuttleworth has invested in shipping cds all over the place (I think there must be more doo-doo-brown Ubuntu cds than there are computers on this planet).

However I agree with the decision by Novell concerning binary-only kernel-modules - and before long Ubuntu will probably (hopefully) be forced to make the same decision.

I think you're way too fast with claims of SUSE going the Red Hat route.

Most of us agree that 10.1 has been horrific all in all. But this is only _one_ release. Wait and see if 10.2 won't be the greatest distro - or should we say the greatest OS - ever.. It has all the possibility in the world to become so. If 10.2 is screwed up too _then_ we have a problem.

And look at the 10.1 problems - apart from the kernel module decision - all the problems had one reason: (testing for) SLED. Fortunately SLED has a two year release cycle and thus won't screw up our distro again - at least for a while.

Give (open)SUSE the benefit of the doubt - at least until 10.2 - and I'm sure you'll see your conclusions are wrong.

Martin, SOTL doesn't talk about himself and what he mentioned is the problem. Is this right place to complain? Probably not, but it is obvious that is asking for attention. Kernel developers did what they had to do, but now there is important empty space that has to be filled. It is not their duty to develop drivers for any company, but those that make money from working solution, and loose if it doesn't, should put more effort in this. Would be that helping original vendor to find time to develop user space driver, or something else, it's up to decision makers. Long time SUSE users will not leave without long stretch of "mistakes" and for sure it is not enough one release to disappoint them, but everyone involved should think of this: Anyone has "My list of companies that I will not deal with, because they sold me a lemon", and it is a place that is hard to leave. There is so many choices, even ubiquitous vendors are not excused forever. It doesn't help to make money if you land there. Perception that SUSE Linux (now openSUSE) is accepted as a playground is correct, but it was never a sandbox where you can break things at will. Free SUSE Linux was long time the same as professional and enterprise editions, just missing support and couple of commercial packages. The name change of SUSE Linux to openSUSE changes nothing in perception, it is still SUSE. -- Regards, Rajko. Visit http://en.opensuse.org/MiniSUSE --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org

Martin Schlander wrote:

Onsdag 02 august 2006 16:37 skrev SOTL:

...

Back to the subject (above) you can read all about it by reading the article Why Red Hat will go bust because of Ubuntu at: Free Software Magazine http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/articles/editorial_13

I was quick to dismiss claims that SUSE/Novell would make the same mistake as Red Hat and more or less quit having a good stable product for home and small offices.

Now I'm concerned again though - just listened to Novell Open Audio - episode: "SLE 10: Top 5 reasons for SUSE Linux Enterprise 10".

In this episode Ted Haeger kindly explains to us the difference between SLE 10 and "openSUSE" as he's always liked to call it.

Apparently SUSE Linux is a bleeding edge distro, only aimed at Linux geeks - with only one purpose - namely testing and maturing stuff for SLE.

Not one word about (open)SUSE being a nice and stable distro that's supposed to increase use of Linux at home and small offices.

Of course the openSUSE-project description states: "We work together to create and distribute the world's most usable Linux." I must have gotten this wrong - I thought we were working together to make (open)SUSE better - but apparently the Linux-distro we're making usable is SLE. Nice of Ted Haeger to inform us what's going on in and around Novell.

Someone please tell me, that this man is _wrong_.

Martin

He is not wrong. He is oh so very very right. This is the exact attitude that crashed Mandrake and the Mandrake list. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org

Marcus Meissner wrote:

On Mon, Aug 07, 2006 at 10:50:29AM -0400, SOTL wrote:

...

Martin Schlander wrote:

...

Onsdag 02 august 2006 16:37 skrev SOTL:

...

Back to the subject (above) you can read all about it by reading the article Why Red Hat will go bust because of Ubuntu at: Free Software Magazine http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/articles/editorial_13

I was quick to dismiss claims that SUSE/Novell would make the same mistake as Red Hat and more or less quit having a good stable product for home and small offices.

Now I'm concerned again though - just listened to Novell Open Audio - episode: "SLE 10: Top 5 reasons for SUSE Linux Enterprise 10".

In this episode Ted Haeger kindly explains to us the difference between SLE 10 and "openSUSE" as he's always liked to call it.

Apparently SUSE Linux is a bleeding edge distro, only aimed at Linux geeks - with only one purpose - namely testing and maturing stuff for SLE.

Not one word about (open)SUSE being a nice and stable distro that's supposed to increase use of Linux at home and small offices.

Of course the openSUSE-project description states: "We work together to create and distribute the world's most usable Linux." I must have gotten this wrong - I thought we were working together to make (open)SUSE better - but apparently the Linux-distro we're making usable is SLE. Nice of Ted Haeger to inform us what's going on in and around Novell.

Someone please tell me, that this man is _wrong_.

Martin

He is not wrong.

He is oh so very very right.

This is the exact attitude that crashed Mandrake and the Mandrake list.

At least we at SUSE do not see it this way yet.

Ciao, Marcus

That is the problem - the belief that this happens to everybody else but we ar immune. Latest update on original article at Slash Dot @ http://interviews.slashdot.org/interviews/06/08/07/1236257.shtml Fedora Project http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ Leader Max Spevack http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/MaxSpevack offered himself up for this interview because, he said, "I look at stories like [your] posting Ubuntu to Bring About Red Hat's Demise http://linux.slashdot.org/linux/06/08/02/0238233.shtml?tid=110 and many of the comments about Red Hat and Fedora seem very rooted in the world of several years ago, when the RHEL/Fedora split took place." Which would bring the article directly in line with SuSE today. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org

Nope, he's not wrong, unfortunately. Mandriva suffered this fate, and Suse/Novell are suffering the same fate. It will take a while, but it's getting there. You have to realize that just because something is community oriented doesn't mean that money isn't creeping in somewhere. Microsoft is starting to give away loads of cash, because they are done innovating, and don't need to put it into research any longer. These things go in cycles, unfortunately. ALL commercial companies suffer this fate. RP SOTL wrote:

...

I was quick to dismiss claims that SUSE/Novell would make the same mistake as Red Hat and more or less quit having a good stable product for home and small offices.

Now I'm concerned again though - just listened to Novell Open Audio - episode: "SLE 10: Top 5 reasons for SUSE Linux Enterprise 10".

In this episode Ted Haeger kindly explains to us the difference between SLE 10 and "openSUSE" as he's always liked to call it. Apparently SUSE Linux is a bleeding edge distro, only aimed at Linux geeks - with only one purpose - namely testing and maturing stuff for SLE. Not one word about (open)SUSE being a nice and stable distro that's supposed to increase use of Linux at home and small offices.

Of course the openSUSE-project description states: "We work together to create and distribute the world's most usable Linux." I must have gotten this wrong - I thought we were working together to make (open)SUSE better - but apparently the Linux-distro we're making usable is SLE. Nice of Ted Haeger to inform us what's going on in and around Novell.

Someone please tell me, that this man is _wrong_.

Martin

He is not wrong.

He is oh so very very right.

This is the exact attitude that crashed Mandrake and the Mandrake list.

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