[opensuse] Why Red Hat will go bust because of Ubuntu
Hi All A couple of days back there were some comments made as to why SuSE 10.1 was not being accepted by the Windows world as expected. Being an electrical engineer (computer controls) I can recall being on a construction project in a temperature hot third world country and the boss purchased an air condition unit which he had installed in his office which due to improper installation (maybe) immediately cough fire and burned up. Madder than hell he immediately fired the installation electricians, their foreman, and the electrical engineer they worked for. All four were off (physically) the project immediately. Back in the computer world these thoughts are what come to mind with Red Had and SuSE. I can not imagine what Jack (the boss noted above) would do if he had purchased Red Hat or SuSE and attempted to install it on his laptop. Fire the whole IT department? I do not know but I am sure glad that that did not happen while I was working for him. Not likely since that was 30 years ago. Nice guy. Big. Weighed 300 pounds. Former world class weight lifter. Madder than hell about his air conditioning. Back to the subject (above) you can read all about it by reading the article Why Red Hat will go bust because of Ubuntu at: Free Software Magazine http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/articles/editorial_13 As far as SuSE 10.1 is concerned well there are the old issues of: Factory installed win modem not working in IBM laptops even though IBM is one of Linux's biggest supporters Video card and driver not working in same computer et. I am certain this is an agervation to the SuSE development team but in most of the world the principal means of connecting a laptop to the Internet is by dial up modem for the simple reason that laptops move around (that is why people buy laptops to move them from place to place) especially to temporary locations where there is no DSL. Not the same as setting in an office with a T1 line. So no modem means no Internet which means Windows works and Linux does not. Video card not as severe an issue. SuSE 10.1 simply chooses the wrong one. Its is there all one has to do is manually select the right one. Not near the issue of finding the right version of the right program (and that is a big issue in itself one time it took me 3 months to get the right one for a Mandrake distribution as Mandrive had made a few special modifications to the program to make it work correctly) down loading a program, install the program and then making the complete system work and be a computer illiterate. Having all this compiled into a working system is why people purchase boss sets of Linus. So for those who feel we are discussing open source development in the form of say a Debian distribution we are not this is more in the form of a Windows reinstall disk that one purchases. Recall RED HAT and SuSE are commercial products a completely different world than Fedora and OpenSuSE. Quality in the commercial world is being able for an idiot to install the product and make it work. Any way these are some thoughts on why SuSE is going the route of Red Hat. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
SOTL a écrit :
Quality in the commercial world is being able for an idiot to install the product and make it work.
I think you forget that Windows come installed _with the computer_ without anything to do with the user. installing W$ in a home made computer is often a much more tedious task than Linux however, what we could do is a "work on openSUSE" logo (or simply list on the wiki all the hardware that works on openSUSE without problem) why not a "openSUSE aware" sticker and wiki page for dealers adresses. The dealers able to sell a openSUSE box could write them on it jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
On Aug 02, 06 16:55:51 +0200, jdd wrote:
however, what we could do is a "work on openSUSE" logo (or simply list on the wiki all the hardware that works on openSUSE without problem)
why not a "openSUSE aware" sticker and wiki page for dealers adresses. The dealers able to sell a openSUSE box could write them on it
How about this: Hey hardware vendor, do you know if your product runs under Linux? We can check it out for you! Contact <hardware@opensuse.org> for details. We even have nice stickers "tested on openSUSE LINUX" for you to put on your products. cheers, Jw. -- o \ Juergen Weigert paint it green! __/ _=======.=======_ <V> | jw@suse.de wide open suse_/ _---|____________\/ \ | 0911 74053-508 (tm)__/ (____/ /\ (/) | __________________________/ _/ \_ vim:set sw=2 wm=8 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
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How about this:
Hey hardware vendor, do you know if your product runs under Linux? We can check it out for you! Contact <hardware@opensuse.org> for details. We even have nice stickers "tested on openSUSE LINUX" for you to put on your products.
I really like this idea. How can I sign up for this hardware testing group?? I think we should start with the multiprocessor Opterons, Macbook Pros, Core Duos etc. ;) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFE0aVwkZOYj+cNI1cRAlpRAJ9RRx7l+Ju5IjTbKoOLgJO2EdKDrwCfXoeu x0l0TP4nc0yQOYJ4yd5vARQ= =N7Rk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
add wrote:
SOTL a écrit :
Quality in the commercial world is being able for an idiot to install the product and make it work.
I think you forget that Windows come installed _with the computer_ without anything to do with the user. installing W$ in a home made computer is often a much more tedious task than Linux
Lets see you pop the old recovery disk in and then add required programs like MS Office and that is called installing Windows to the average computer illiterate senior manager. Maybe not to people on this list but that is what these people call it and these are the idiots that have the power to decide who does and who does not work in their company which decides if the new office or company system will be Windows or Linux.
however, what we could do is a "work on openSUSE" logo (or simply list on the wiki all the hardware that works on openSUSE without problem)
why not a "openSUSE aware" sticker and wiki page for dealers adresses. The dealers able to sell a openSUSE box could write them on it
jdd
Sorry you have missed a very important point which I guess is my fault for not putting in capitals: OpenSuSE is a down load hackers platform put together by technical professional for technical professional and as such does not contain all programs necessary to run all computers. SuSE is a completely different world. It is commercial software sold to technical illiterates including very senior corporate management which make decisions of the type the new corporate computer system will be Windows because I purchased one of those damn SuSE box distribution sets and it crashed my computer causing me to have to take my computer to a computer shop which took 2 weeks which cost the company 1 million US dollars and almost got me fired. Fortunately I was able to convene the Senior VP that my computer crashed cause my dog pissed on it. I am damn mad and I will fire anyone who even suggest that trash is usable trash. Not in my division. Get Microsoft and get it installed correctly because it work and that Linux trash does not. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 SOTL wrote: ...
OpenSuSE is a down load hackers platform put together by technical professional for technical professional and as such does not contain all programs necessary to run all computers.
Err... could you elaborate on that ? What are you talking about ? Proprietary drivers ? As far as "programs" are concerned, SUSE Linux (it's still called "SUSE Linux" - "openSUSE is the community apparel around it) ships orders of magnitude more applications than windows. Really, what are you actually talking about ?
SuSE is a completely different world. It is commercial software sold to
Eh.. well... SUSE is totally *not* a different world. If you mean SLED (SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop), it isn't all that different, given that SLED 10 is based on SUSE Linux 10.1.
technical illiterates including very senior corporate management which make decisions of the type the new corporate computer system will be Windows because I purchased one of those damn SuSE box distribution sets and it crashed my computer causing me to have to take my computer to a computer shop which took 2 weeks which cost the company 1 million US dollars and almost got me fired. Fortunately I was able to convene the Senior VP that my computer crashed cause my dog pissed on it. I am damn mad and I will fire anyone who even suggest that trash is usable trash. Not in my division. Get Microsoft and get it installed correctly because it work and that Linux trash does not.
... and your point is ? That managers are clueless ? many are. That IT is a weird business made up of more cluelessness and sheer stupidity than any other type of job ? totally. But if it's just to start a (SUSE) Linux vs windows flamewar, then this isn't the right place. cheers - -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ <pascal.bleser@skynet.be> <guru@unixtech.be> _\_v The more things change, the more they stay insane. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFE0T+Ir3NMWliFcXcRAuXSAJoCUmZUQ8I5wKdt0KjAHI1/U46DUACgn2f5 fpp/I0AY5Q0iVLchteazT2k= =9863 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Pascal Bleser wrote:
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SOTL wrote: ...
OpenSuSE is a down load hackers platform put together by technical professional for technical professional and as such does not contain all programs necessary to run all computers.
Err... could you elaborate on that ? What are you talking about ? Proprietary drivers ?
The SuSE teams knows the difference in content better than I do so ask them for exact details of the difference but as I understand it Open SuSE contains only open source programs. SuSE on the other hand contains all of OpenSuSE and non open source programs so is thus more complete. If the email I received from the SuSE development team is correct the win modem driver or what ever you want to call it is not ope source which means that it can not be included in OpenSuSE since OpenSuSE does not pay royalty which SuSE does.
As far as "programs" are concerned, SUSE Linux (it's still called "SUSE Linux" - "openSUSE is the community apparel around it) ships orders of magnitude more applications than windows.
Really, what are you actually talking about ?
SuSE is a completely different world. It is commercial software sold to
Eh.. well... SUSE is totally *not* a different world. If you mean SLED (SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop), it isn't all that different, given that SLED 10 is based on SUSE Linux 10.1.
It is that different IF you require non open source programs to make your computer run fully and correctly and you are a non teckie.
technical illiterates including very senior corporate management which make decisions of the type the new corporate computer system will be Windows because I purchased one of those damn SuSE box distribution sets and it crashed my computer causing me to have to take my computer to a computer shop which took 2 weeks which cost the company 1 million US dollars and almost got me fired. Fortunately I was able to convene the Senior VP that my computer crashed cause my dog pissed on it. I am damn mad and I will fire anyone who even suggest that trash is usable trash. Not in my division. Get Microsoft and get it installed correctly because it work and that Linux trash does not.
... and your point is ? That managers are clueless ? many are. That IT is a weird business made up of more cluelessness and sheer stupidity than any other type of job ? totally.
This is the part I find so difficult. SuSE supports OpenSuSE and provides much of the technical support for one and only one reason and that is that OpenSuSE is the basic building block of SuSE. SuSE is sold for money. It is a commercial product. SuSE operates like any other business. No profit then they go out of business which means SuSE no longer supports OpenSuSE. SuSE sells it product to people who are technical incompetent; people called senior management. If senior management does not like something they do not buy it. Just like you will not buy a car you do not like. If you do not buy it then that manufacturer does not make a profit off it sales which means that some non profit work that manufacturer supports will not be supported.
But if it's just to start a (SUSE) Linux vs windows flamewar, then this isn't the right place.
Normal teckie response. Total inability to understand that the kernel is one thing and that SuSE development is completely different. That SuSE is in business to make money. It is only by confronting the failures acknowledging their existence that a procedure for improvement may be developed.
cheers - -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ <pascal.bleser@skynet.be> <guru@unixtech.be> _\_v The more things change, the more they stay insane. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux)
As far as I can ascertain the major problem is SuSE and OpenSuSE’s development process. Take a look at kernel development at http://www.kernel.org/ One can easily see that the process is continuous. _________ The latest stable version of the Linux kernel is: *2.6.17.7 <http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/v2.6/patch-2.6.17.7.bz2>* 2006-07-25 03:40 UTC F <http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/v2.6/linux-2.6.17.7.tar.bz2> V <http://www.kernel.org/diff/diffview.cgi?file=%2Fpub%2Flinux%2Fkernel%2Fv2.6%2Fpatch-2.6.17.7.bz2> VI <http://www.kernel.org/diff/diffview.cgi?file=%2Fpub%2Flinux%2Fkernel%2Fv2.6%2Fincr%2Fpatch-2.6.17.6-7.bz2> C <http://www.kernel.org/git/?p=linux%2Fkernel%2Fgit%2Fstable%2Flinux-2.6.17.y.git;a=summary> Changelog <http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/v2.6/ChangeLog-2.6.17.7> The latest prepatch <http://kernel.org/patchtypes/pre.html> for the stable Linux kernel tree is: *2.6.18-rc3 <http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/v2.6/testing/patch-2.6.18-rc3.bz2>* 2006-07-30 06:31 UTC V <http://www.kernel.org/diff/diffview.cgi?file=%2Fpub%2Flinux%2Fkernel%2Fv2.6%2Ftesting%2Fpatch-2.6.18-rc3.bz2> VI <http://www.kernel.org/diff/diffview.cgi?file=%2Fpub%2Flinux%2Fkernel%2Fv2.6%2Ftesting%2Fincr%2Fpatch-2.6.18-rc2-rc3.bz2> C <http://www.kernel.org/git/?p=linux%2Fkernel%2Fgit%2Ftorvalds%2Flinux-2.6.git;a=summary> Changelog <http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/v2.6/testing/ChangeLog-2.6.18-rc3> The latest snapshot <http://kernel.org/patchtypes/snapshot.html> for the stable Linux kernel tree is: *2.6.18-rc3-git2 <http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/v2.6/snapshots/patch-2.6.18-rc3-git2.bz2>* 2006-08-02 19:01 UTC V <http://www.kernel.org/diff/diffview.cgi?file=%2Fpub%2Flinux%2Fkernel%2Fv2.6%2Fsnapshots%2Fpatch-2.6.18-rc3-git2.bz2> C <http://www.kernel.org/git/?p=linux%2Fkernel%2Fgit%2Ftorvalds%2Flinux-2.6.git;a=summary> The latest 2.4 version of the Linux kernel is: *2.4.32 <http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/v2.4/patch-2.4.32.bz2>* 2005-11-16 19:13 UTC F <http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/v2.4/linux-2.4.32.tar.bz2> V <http://www.kernel.org/diff/diffview.cgi?file=%2Fpub%2Flinux%2Fkernel%2Fv2.4%2Fpatch-2.4.32.bz2> VI <http://www.kernel.org/diff/diffview.cgi?file=%2Fpub%2Flinux%2Fkernel%2Fv2.4%2Ftesting%2Fincr%2Fpatch-2.4.32-rc3-final.bz2> C <http://www.kernel.org/git/?p=linux%2Fkernel%2Fgit%2Fmarcelo%2Flinux-2.4.git;a=summary> Changelog <http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/v2.4/ChangeLog-2.4.32> The latest prepatch <http://kernel.org/patchtypes/pre.html> for the 2.4 Linux kernel tree is: *2.4.33-rc3 <http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/v2.4/testing/patch-2.4.33-rc3.bz2>* 2006-07-28 23:21 UTC V <http://www.kernel.org/diff/diffview.cgi?file=%2Fpub%2Flinux%2Fkernel%2Fv2.4%2Ftesting%2Fpatch-2.4.33-rc3.bz2> VI <http://www.kernel.org/diff/diffview.cgi?file=%2Fpub%2Flinux%2Fkernel%2Fv2.4%2Ftesting%2Fincr%2Fpatch-2.4.33-rc2-rc3.bz2> C <http://www.kernel.org/git/?p=linux%2Fkernel%2Fgit%2Fmarcelo%2Flinux-2.4.git;a=summary> Changelog <http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/v2.4/testing/patch-2.4.33.log> The latest 2.2 version of the Linux kernel is: *2.2.26 <http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/v2.2/patch-2.2.26.bz2>* 2004-02-25 00:28 UTC F <http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/v2.2/linux-2.2.26.tar.bz2> V <http://www.kernel.org/diff/diffview.cgi?file=%2Fpub%2Flinux%2Fkernel%2Fv2.2%2Fpatch-2.2.26.bz2> Changelog <http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/v2.2/ChangeLog-2.2.26> The latest prepatch <http://kernel.org/patchtypes/pre.html> for the 2.2 Linux kernel tree is: *2.2.27-rc2 <http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/v2.2/testing/patch-2.2.27-rc2.bz2>* 2005-01-12 23:55 UTC V <http://www.kernel.org/diff/diffview.cgi?file=%2Fpub%2Flinux%2Fkernel%2Fv2.2%2Ftesting%2Fpatch-2.2.27-rc2.bz2> VI <http://www.kernel.org/diff/diffview.cgi?file=%2Fpub%2Flinux%2Fkernel%2Fv2.2%2Ftesting%2Fincr%2Fpatch-2.2.27-rc1-rc2.bz2> Changelog <http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/v2.2/testing/patch-2.2.27.log> _________ The 2.2, 2.4, and 2.6 kernels are still being improved. Now compare that to the OpenSuSE / SuSE process. Each level is really a one time assembly. It is not a continuous process just a one time process. __________ Now take a look at Debian’s process: http://www.debian.org/releases/ ____________ Debian always has at least three releases in active maintenance: “stable”, “testing” and “unstable”. stable <http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/> The “stable” distribution contains the latest officially released distribution of Debian. This is the production release of Debian, the one which we primarily recommend using. The current “stable” distribution of Debian GNU/Linux is version 3.1r2, codenamed /sarge/. It was released on April 19th, 2006. testing <http://www.debian.org/releases/testing/> The “testing” distribution contains packages that haven't been accepted into a “stable” release yet, but they are in the queue for that. The main advantage of using this distribution is that it has more recent versions of software. See the Debian FAQ <http://www.debian.org/doc/FAQ/> for more information on what is “testing” <http://www.debian.org/doc/FAQ/ch-ftparchives#s-testing> and how it becomes “stable” <http://www.debian.org/doc/FAQ/ch-ftparchives#s-frozen>. The current “testing” distribution is /etch/. unstable <http://www.debian.org/releases/unstable/> The “unstable” distribution is where active development of Debian occurs. Generally, this distribution is run by developers and those who like to live on the edge. The “unstable” distribution is called /sid/. __________ Now compare that to OpenSuSE / SuSE where there is only two level., assembly and assembled. Next take a look at Mandriva and Mandriva Club http://club.mandriva.com/xwiki/bin/view/Main/WebHome ___________ Welcome to Mandriva Club ! Mandriva Club is a place where members can download the latest Mandriva Linux distributions including commercial applications and plugins, ATI and Nvidia drivers, Club specific distributions, can gain access to a collaborative knowledge base <http://club.mandriva.com/xwiki/bin/KB/> related to Mandriva Linux use, can gain access to commercial RPMs, can get special discount on Mandriva Store <http://store.mandriva.com>, can chat <http://club.mandriva.com/xwiki/bin/Chat/> with Mandriva team, and much more... <http://club.mandriva.com/xwiki/bin/Main/Faq> *Join the Mandriva Club, download now and take the most of your Mandriva Linux system! <http://www1.mandrivalinux.com/en/club/>** * *Enterprise, corporate or public sector users*: please visit the *Mandriva Corporate Club <http://corporateclub.mandriva.com>* to gain access to Mandriva's industry leading, 5 year supported enterprise solutions such as: Mandriva Corporate Server 3, Mandriva Corporate Desktop, Mandriva HPC Cluster, and Mandriva Multi Network Firewall 2. ___________ Historically I was opposed to a subscription Linux but how is one to account for the necessity of inclusion of non open source programs such as win modem programs otherwise. Maybe some combination of a these developments along the lines of: 1. Both OpenSuSE and SuSE in a continuous process like kernel development 2. OpenSuSE (all open source) with 2 levels: development and testing 3. SuSE which takes the tested version of OpenSuSE adds in non open source programs such as win modems with access to SuSE download on a subscription bases. Just some thoughts but if something is not done soon SuSE is going to be just another toasty critter distribution. Another thought you people can debate this is you have interest without me as I have already express all of my ideas on the subject. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 SOTL wrote:
Pascal Bleser wrote:
SOTL wrote: ...
OpenSuSE is a down load hackers platform put together by technical professional for technical professional and as such does not contain all programs necessary to run all computers.
Err... could you elaborate on that ? What are you talking about ? Proprietary drivers ?
The SuSE teams knows the difference in content better than I do so ask them for exact details of the difference but as I understand it Open SuSE contains only open source programs. SuSE on the other hand contains
Wrong. Let's take the latest release, 10.1. SUSE Linux 10.1 (the distribution is still called "SUSE Linux", *not* "OpenSuSE") is made up of a set of 5 CDs that contain only Open Source Software. A 6th add-on CD is available, that contains non-OSS packages. Same thing if you install over the Internet: - - the main repository only contains OSS packages: http://ftp.belnet.be/pub/mirrors/ftp.opensuse.org/opensuse/distribution/SL-1... - - there's a non-OSS repository that contains... non-OSS packages: http://ftp.belnet.be/pub/mirrors/ftp.opensuse.org/opensuse/distribution/SL-1... I still don't see how you relate "only contains OSS" and "a download hackers platform ... and as such does not contain all programs necessary to run all computers".
all of OpenSuSE and non open source programs so is thus more complete.
Assuming that with "SuSE" (as compared to "OpenSuSE") you mean the enterprise distribution SLED (SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop): wrong. See above. What you call "OpenSuSE" also contains non-OSS packages. It is up to you to decide whether you want to use them or not.
If the email I received from the SuSE development team is correct the win modem driver or what ever you want to call it is not ope source which means that it can not be included in OpenSuSE since OpenSuSE does not pay royalty which SuSE does.
Ewwww... Wait, wait, you're totally mixing up two things here. The winmodem driver has been dropped from the SUSE Linux distribution (as well as the "commercial" (as you call it) one) because it is not under the GPL license. Because it is not GPL, it is violating the Linux kernel's license. Linux kernel drivers *must* be GPL, or they are illegal. Although not many people have cared much about it in the past, several kernel developers have become very vocal about that lately (one of the most vocal about it being employed by Novell, btw) and "threatening" Linux distributions that if they don't comply, there might even be legal consequences. It was badly communicated, somewhat sudden, but they are in their own right: as of the Linux kernel's license, those winmodem drivers that have been dropped from SUSE Linux 10.1 and SLED10 are illegal. Period. Novell/SUSE has taken the decision to comply with that license and to remove such drivers from the distribution. OTOH it has also contacted those manufacturers and proposed to help them maintain their drivers in a SUSE Linux compatible way, which is what's happening for nVidia and Ati: those are now offering a repository with SUSE Linux Kernel Module Packages ("KMP"s) on their own site.
As far as "programs" are concerned, SUSE Linux (it's still called "SUSE Linux" - "openSUSE is the community apparel around it) ships orders of magnitude more applications than windows.
Really, what are you actually talking about ?
SuSE is a completely different world. It is commercial software sold to
Eh.. well... SUSE is totally *not* a different world. If you mean SLED (SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop), it isn't all that different, given that SLED 10 is based on SUSE Linux 10.1.
It is that different IF you require non open source programs to make your computer run fully and correctly and you are a non teckie.
Again, you're totally mixing up things here. You can use those "non opensource programs" on SUSE Linux as well (what you call "OpenSuSE"). The "non opensource programs" that have been dropped because they violate the Linux kernel license (like that winmodem driver) are gone on *all* SUSE distributions, also the enterprise ones (like SLED).
technical illiterates including very senior corporate management which make decisions of the type the new corporate computer system will be Windows because I purchased one of those damn SuSE box distribution sets and it crashed my computer causing me to have to take my computer to a computer shop which took 2 weeks which cost the company 1 million US dollars and almost got me fired. Fortunately I was able to convene the Senior VP that my computer crashed cause my dog pissed on it. I am damn mad and I will fire anyone who even suggest that trash is usable trash. Not in my division. Get Microsoft and get it installed correctly because it work and that Linux trash does not.
... and your point is ? That managers are clueless ? many are. (may I add: when it comes to IT ;))
[...] And you know what, I stop replying to your mail right here. I won't waste my time correcting several dozen misinformed statements. Get some information on what you're talking about. cheers - -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ <pascal.bleser@skynet.be> <guru@unixtech.be> _\_v The more things change, the more they stay insane. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFE0ZY9r3NMWliFcXcRAitXAKCJzg/dC9cm1vHeCZzDeos7s65PwQCgiiVn F69KOkMsv3Bf7VRRtIUR88c= =s14J -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Pascal Bleser a écrit :
As far as "programs" are concerned, SUSE Linux (it's still called "SUSE Linux" - "openSUSE is the community apparel around it) ships orders of magnitude more applications than windows.
Pascal, your are late :-). SUSE Linux is dead, and the distribution is openSUSE for some weeks now :-) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
On 2006-08-03 08:48:56 +0200, jdd wrote:
Pascal, your are late :-). SUSE Linux is dead, and the distribution is openSUSE for some weeks now :-)
10.2 alpha3 will be called openSUSE. anything before is SUSE Linux. thanks for talking to you. darix -- openSUSE - SUSE Linux is my linux openSUSE is good for you www.opensuse.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Marcus Rueckert a écrit :
On 2006-08-03 08:48:56 +0200, jdd wrote:
Pascal, your are late :-). SUSE Linux is dead, and the distribution is openSUSE for some weeks now :-)
10.2 alpha3 will be called openSUSE. anything before is SUSE Linux.
thanks for talking to you.
darix
ok. however this seems quite complicated. Of course I know what is writen on the boxes :-) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Hi, SOTL schrieb:
Sorry you have missed a very important point which I guess is my fault for not putting in capitals:
OpenSuSE is a down load hackers platform put together by technical professional for technical professional and as such does not contain all programs necessary to run all computers.
SuSE is a completely different world.
Sorry, but you have missed so many points that it's no longer funny. The information above is just plain wrong: - openSUSE and SUSE Linux are produced by the same people, they are even the very same product. They contain the very same set of packages. The difference between openSUSE and SUSE Linux is: - Up until including version 10.1, openSUSE was the name of the project dedicated to producing the next release of a product called SUSE Linux. - Starting with version 10.2, openSUSE is the name of both the project and the resulting product; a product called SUSE Linux does not exist any more because it was renamed to match the name of the project. Since openSUSE and SUSE Linux are, as you have just learnt in this very moment, identical, none of them can be more professional than the other, and none of them can contain more packages necessary to run on all computers than the other. Identical is identical.
Get Microsoft and get it installed correctly because it work and that Linux trash does not.
If you are not interested in the openSUSE project, you are kindly invited to reconsider being on this list because this list is explicitly intended to be a place for communication about the openSUSE project. Making statements like the above about SUSE Linux and openSUSE from a position of obvious zero knowledge is something that people will remember, rendering further stuff like of this quality unnecessary. Chances are that you are confusing SUSE Linux with the Enterprise products. Assuming that this is the case, please get a clue and learn that the Enterprise products contain _fewer_ packages than openSUSE, not more. What makes the Enterprise products more enterprisy than openSUSE is not the amount of included software, it's the support level. An environment where a single failure can produce a damage amounting to 1 million US dollars is clearly an environment where you definitely need a commercially supported offering and neither SUSE Linux nor openSUSE. Andreas Hanke --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
On Thursday 03 August 2006 06:16, Andreas Hanke wrote:
The difference between openSUSE and SUSE Linux is:
Naming is completely irrelevant. Call it 'the flying elephant' if it makes someone happier. Half of the discussions on this list seem to concern naming and thats just nuts. However, it is of interest if the amount of effort put into fixing bugs ('productifying') SUSE will remain on the same level it was before. Would guess that yes, it will - you'll keep the 'openSUSE' and the 'enterprise' version roughly in sync? -- // Janne --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Janne Karhunen a écrit :
level it was before. Would guess that yes, it will - you'll keep the 'openSUSE' and the 'enterprise' version roughly in sync?
they would be foolish not to do so :-) keeping one distribution is quite hard, two is too much :-) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Janne Karhunen <Janne.Karhunen@gmail.com> writes:
On Thursday 03 August 2006 06:16, Andreas Hanke wrote:
The difference between openSUSE and SUSE Linux is:
Naming is completely irrelevant. Call it 'the flying elephant' if it makes someone happier. Half of the discussions on this list seem to concern naming and thats just nuts.
However, it is of interest if the amount of effort put into fixing bugs ('productifying') SUSE will remain on the same level it was before. Would guess that yes, it will - you'll keep the 'openSUSE' and the 'enterprise' version roughly in sync?
SUSE Linux 10.1 and SLED10/SLES10 are in sync. Now we work on openSUSE 10.2, 10.3, ... and at one time an openSUSE release (let's say 11.1) will be in sync with SLED11/SLES11. So, they are in sync, *if* there's an enterprise release. We do not sync with Service Packs - e.g. the SLES10 SP1 will not be synced with anything since openSUSE moves forward... Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, aj@suse.de, http://www.suse.de/~aj/ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126
SOTL wrote:
add wrote:
SOTL a écrit :
Quality in the commercial world is being able for an idiot to install the product and make it work.
I think you forget that Windows come installed _with the computer_ without anything to do with the user. installing W$ in a home made computer is often a much more tedious task than Linux
Lets see you pop the old recovery disk in and then add required programs like MS Office and that is called installing Windows to the average computer illiterate senior manager. Maybe not to people on this list but that is what these people call it and these are the idiots that have the power to decide who does and who does not work in their company which decides if the new office or company system will be Windows or Linux.
however, what we could do is a "work on openSUSE" logo (or simply list on the wiki all the hardware that works on openSUSE without problem)
why not a "openSUSE aware" sticker and wiki page for dealers adresses. The dealers able to sell a openSUSE box could write them on it
jdd
Sorry you have missed a very important point which I guess is my fault for not putting in capitals:
OpenSuSE is a down load hackers platform put together by technical professional for technical professional and as such does not contain all programs necessary to run all computers.
SuSE is a completely different world. It is commercial software sold to technical illiterates including very senior corporate management which make decisions of the type the new corporate computer system will be Windows because I purchased one of those damn SuSE box distribution sets and it crashed my computer causing me to have to take my computer to a computer shop which took 2 weeks which cost the company 1 million US dollars and almost got me fired. Fortunately I was able to convene the Senior VP that my computer crashed cause my dog pissed on it. I am damn mad and I will fire anyone who even suggest that trash is usable trash. Not in my division. Get Microsoft and get it installed correctly because it work and that Linux trash does not.
Troll!! And stupid. Fred --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
jdd wrote:
SOTL a écrit :
Quality in the commercial world is being able for an idiot to install the product and make it work.
I think you forget that Windows come installed _with the computer_ without anything to do with the user.
installing W$ in a home made computer is often a much more tedious task than Linux
I quite agree, having just been through it. It was mostly an exercise in stress-control. A friend of mine recently upgraded his motherboard in his Windows machine, a perfectly simple operation. Yet he ended up having to reinstall as his Windows system refused to boot from the new board (did not recognise the disk controller). /Per Jessen, Zürich --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Onsdag 02 august 2006 16:37 skrev SOTL:
Any way these are some thoughts on why SuSE is going the route of Red Hat.
I've made similar points to the article before: that having a good home-user product is strategically important to get into the enterprise. And that is the reason why Mark Shuttleworth has invested in shipping cds all over the place (I think there must be more doo-doo-brown Ubuntu cds than there are computers on this planet). However I agree with the decision by Novell concerning binary-only kernel-modules - and before long Ubuntu will probably (hopefully) be forced to make the same decision. I think you're way too fast with claims of SUSE going the Red Hat route. Most of us agree that 10.1 has been horrific all in all. But this is only _one_ release. Wait and see if 10.2 won't be the greatest distro - or should we say the greatest OS - ever.. It has all the possibility in the world to become so. If 10.2 is screwed up too _then_ we have a problem. And look at the 10.1 problems - apart from the kernel module decision - all the problems had one reason: (testing for) SLED. Fortunately SLED has a two year release cycle and thus won't screw up our distro again - at least for a while. Give (open)SUSE the benefit of the doubt - at least until 10.2 - and I'm sure you'll see your conclusions are wrong. Martin / cb400f --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Martin Schlander wrote:
Onsdag 02 august 2006 16:37 skrev SOTL:
Any way these are some thoughts on why SuSE is going the route of Red Hat.
I've made similar points to the article before: that having a good home-user
A major issue is calling individual computer users home-users. The relevant people are corporate executives not teen agers setting at home.
product is strategically important to get into the enterprise. And that is the reason why Mark Shuttleworth has invested in shipping cds all over the place (I think there must be more doo-doo-brown Ubuntu cds than there are computers on this planet).
However I agree with the decision by Novell concerning binary-only kernel-modules - and before long Ubuntu will probably (hopefully) be forced to make the same decision.
I think you're way too fast with claims of SUSE going the Red Hat route. Most of us agree that 10.1 has been horrific all in all. But this is only _one_ release.
Why is 10.1 bad? It should have been an improvement on 10.0. It was not. Based on this why should one assume that 10.2 will be an improvement on 10.0 or even 10.1? I do not. My assumption is that 10.2 will be a bigger disaster than 10.1 is simply because developers are not interested in correcting the problems with 10.1 but are interested in having the latest woom zoom packages and features which then will not install. Yesterday I attempted to upgrade a OpenSuSE 10.1 beta 8 working installation to SuSE 10.1 only to have the system crash because packages were deleted from SuSE 10.1 that were in OpenSuSE 10.1 beta 8. I then did a reinstall and found since I am not in the old office with a DSL line (we should have DSL next week) that a US Robotics 52v PCI internal modem which my Red Hat 6.0 distribution installed correctly is now some 7 or is it 10 years later unsupported. One step forward two steps backward and the dance goes on.
Wait and see if 10.2 won't be the greatest distro - or should we say the greatest OS - ever.. It has all the possibility in the world to become so. If 10.2 is screwed up too _then_ we have a problem.
Dreamer
And look at the 10.1 problems - apart from the kernel module decision - all the problems had one reason: (testing for) SLED. Fortunately SLED has a two year release cycle and thus won't screw up our distro again - at least for a while.
Give (open)SUSE the benefit of the doubt - at least until 10.2 - and I'm sure you'll see your conclusions are wrong.
Martin / cb400f
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I think you're way too fast with claims of SUSE going the Red Hat route. Most of us agree that 10.1 has been horrific all in all. But this is only _one_ release.
Why is 10.1 bad? It should have been an improvement on 10.0. It was not. Based on this why should one assume that 10.2 will be an improvement on 10.0 or even 10.1? I do not. My assumption is that 10.2 will be a bigger disaster than 10.1 is simply because developers are not interested in correcting the problems with 10.1 but are interested in having the latest woom zoom packages and features which then will not install.
I don't know where you got the idea that developers are not interested in correcting these problems. The developers I know are very concerned about improving these problems and are already hard at work improving and planning. Why do you think there is a test release of 10.2 alpha? It is to allow the community to provide more feedback about the problems and whether fixes getting implemented are solving the problems or creating new ones. I'm sorry to hear that you have had so many problems with openSUSE vs. SUSE Linux, but you might want to do more research into the differences in the products. Software changes with time. Do you really expect all your older hardware to work with the next new version of Windows? There are big license issues that Novell cannot and will not violate. What other companies do and what you personally do is beyond Novell's control. But SUSE and Novell are making a serious effort to avoid providing software that violates licenses and copyrights. If you have hardware that is not supported in the products, you might want to talk to the manufacturer and let them know that you want to use their product with Linux and want them to provide the appropriate drivers. You might also want to let them know that your preferred Linux distribution only allows open source licenses, so they might want to take that route with development. Unless enough consumers demand this, companies will not see a need to support this. If you are looking at purchasing new hardware, I strongly recommend researching Linux support before making your purchase. If you purchase from companies that do provide open source drivers or allow those to be developed by not using proprietary protocols, those companies are likely to continue doing so. If you would prefer to just keep using Microsoft Windows, the decision is yours. Sincerely, Rebecca Walter (please note that these comments are my own) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
SOTL wrote:
I've made similar points to the article before: that having a good home-user
A major issue is calling individual computer users home-users. The relevant people are corporate executives not teen agers setting at home.
Actually it's not - not for the problem you described wrt the winmodem. A corporate executive does not get to see his laptop until it works perfectly. His paid Linux support-staff will have 1) installed OpenSUSE and 2) then installed the binary-only drivers. No problem - same procedure for Windows. I've recently had to re-install W2K on our last remaining Windows workstation - it certainly does not work out-of-the-box. /Per Jessen, Zürich --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
On Thursday 03 August 2006 17:52, Per Jessen wrote:
Actually it's not - not for the problem you described wrt the winmodem. A corporate executive does not get to see his laptop until it works perfectly. His paid Linux support-staff will have 1) installed OpenSUSE
Worng! WORNG! A corporate executive must have SLED10. Not openSUSE, not SUSE Linux. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Silviu Marin-Caea wrote:
On Thursday 03 August 2006 17:52, Per Jessen wrote:
Actually it's not - not for the problem you described wrt the winmodem. A corporate executive does not get to see his laptop until it works perfectly. His paid Linux support-staff will have 1) installed OpenSUSE
Worng! WORNG!
A corporate executive must have SLED10. Not openSUSE, not SUSE Linux.
Would you care to elaborate? Whether or not an enterprise uses SLED or openSUSE is only a matter of IT policy, not features nor anything else. If the stability, service and support of SLED is preferred, then obviously one should chose SLED, otherwise there's no reason to. /Per Jessen, Zürich --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Gee I do not know what companies you work for but all of electrical engineer companies I have worked for we had to ascertain what equipment would do the job, ascertain what software was required to perform the stated function, purchase the equipment, install the software, make the soft ware work, and do this while making a profit for the division or we were out the door. Per Jessen wrote:
On Thursday 03 August 2006 17:52, Per Jessen wrote:
Actually it's not - not for the problem you described wrt the winmodem. A corporate executive does not get to see his laptop until it works perfectly. His paid Linux support-staff will have 1) installed OpenSUSE
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SOTL wrote:
Gee I do not know what companies you work
I work for/run/own my own company with just short of 20 staff.
for but all of electrical engineer companies I have worked for we had to ascertain what equipment would do the job, ascertain what software was required to perform the stated function, purchase the equipment, install the software, make the soft ware work, and do this while making a profit for the division or we were out the door.
And your point is? (and btw, please don't top-post) /Per Jessen, Zürich --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 2006-08-07 at 23:22 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
SOTL wrote:
Gee I do not know what companies you work
I work for/run/own my own company with just short of 20 staff.
for but all of electrical engineer companies I have worked for we had to ascertain what equipment would do the job, ascertain what software was required to perform the stated function, purchase the equipment, install the software, make the soft ware work, and do this while making a profit for the division or we were out the door.
And your point is? (and btw, please don't top-post)
Since when does a _troll_ need a point to start a controversy? -- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Kenneth Schneider wrote:
Since when does a _troll_ need a point to start a controversy?
Thanks for that Ken - sometimes I'm a little slow in recognising these guys .... /Per Jessen, Zürich --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
On Monday 07 August 2006 15:52, Per Jessen wrote:
Would you care to elaborate? Whether or not an enterprise uses SLED or openSUSE is only a matter of IT policy, not features nor anything else. If the stability, service and support of SLED is preferred
I would think that for a corporate executive's laptop, stability, service and support of SLED is preferred. You seem to view things only from a position of administering a small IT environment. Even so, it's no fun reinstalling stations every two years, when the consummer distro is out of maintenance. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Silviu Marin-Caea wrote:
On Monday 07 August 2006 15:52, Per Jessen wrote:
Would you care to elaborate? Whether or not an enterprise uses SLED or openSUSE is only a matter of IT policy, not features nor anything else.
The above would be nice if it were true but it is not true.
OpenSuSE does not contain any non open source programs ie ones that may not be used without paying royalties. SLED is a commercial program which does contain non open source programs ie ones in which one must pay royalties to use. If you do not need the non open source programs then of course they are then equivalent but if of course you need such programs to make your system work then they are not equivalent. Last I heard most win modem programs are non open source. That would seem to imply that if one wanted a laptop to use its internal to connect to the internet and that one was not a geek then would need to purchase SuSE. Apparently it is very difficult for people to understand that there are two ways of making an operating system work - become a geek or pay a geek to do the work. If one has different interest say is a medical doctor et then one feel of expertise is not being a geek meaning that it is preferable to pay someone else to be the geek. Realize OpenSuSE is a geek thing. SLED is a non geek thing. That is the program that geeks sell to non geeks who have no desires to be a geek so that the geeks can buy non geek things like food and bear. Very simple stuff. No sale of non geek programs to non geeks then the geeks do not get to eat or drink bear.
If the stability, service and support of SLED is preferred
I would think that for a corporate executive's laptop, stability, service and support of SLED is preferred.
You seem to view things only from a position of administering a small IT environment. Even so, it's no fun reinstalling stations every two years, when the consummer distro is out of maintenance.
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On Tue, Aug 08, 2006 at 10:04:00AM -0400, SOTL wrote:
Silviu Marin-Caea wrote:
On Monday 07 August 2006 15:52, Per Jessen wrote:
Would you care to elaborate? Whether or not an enterprise uses SLED or openSUSE is only a matter of IT policy, not features nor anything else.
The above would be nice if it were true but it is not true.
OpenSuSE does not contain any non open source programs ie ones that may not be used without paying royalties.
SLED is a commercial program which does contain non open source programs ie ones in which one must pay royalties to use.
If you do not need the non open source programs then of course they are then equivalent but if of course you need such programs to make your system work then they are not equivalent.
Last I heard most win modem programs are non open source.
SLED does not have binary only kernel modules either (with 1 exception), so no WinModem binary support in SLED 10.
That would seem to imply that if one wanted a laptop to use its internal to connect to the internet and that one was not a geek then would need to purchase SuSE.
We would really like to make everything work out of the box but we have to work with the current laws. Paying us does not help here. Ciao, Marcus --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Marcus Meissner wrote:
On Tue, Aug 08, 2006 at 10:04:00AM -0400, SOTL wrote:
Silviu Marin-Caea wrote:
On Monday 07 August 2006 15:52, Per Jessen wrote:
Would you care to elaborate? Whether or not an enterprise uses SLED or openSUSE is only a matter of IT policy, not features nor anything else.
The above would be nice if it were true but it is not true.
OpenSuSE does not contain any non open source programs ie ones that may not be used without paying royalties.
SLED is a commercial program which does contain non open source programs ie ones in which one must pay royalties to use.
If you do not need the non open source programs then of course they are then equivalent but if of course you need such programs to make your system work then they are not equivalent.
Last I heard most win modem programs are non open source.
SLED does not have binary only kernel modules either (with 1 exception), so no WinModem binary support in SLED 10.
That would seem to imply that if one wanted a laptop to use its internal to connect to the internet and that one was not a geek then would need to purchase SuSE.
We would really like to make everything work out of the box but we have to work with the current laws. Paying us does not help here.
Ciao, Marcus
Something is drastly wrong here. Mandrake 10.1 commerical which is over 3 years old has the programs required to make Thinkpad wind modems work and they do work.. SuSE 10.1 commerical does not have such programs and it is only 3 months old and it does not work. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Hi, SOTL schrieb:
Something is drastly wrong here.
Mandrake 10.1 commerical which is over 3 years old has the programs required to make Thinkpad wind modems work and they do work..
SuSE 10.1 commerical does not have such programs and it is only 3 months old and it does not work.
Continuing like this is pointless. WHICH modem is it? There are different ThinkPads with different modems. Please install SUSE, execute "/usr/sbin/hwinfo --modem" and post the output here. This will show us which modem it is, which kernel module it needs and then we can jointly investigate why it is not included. Andreas Hanke --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Andreas Hanke wrote:
Hi,
SOTL schrieb:
Something is drastly wrong here.
Mandrake 10.1 commerical which is over 3 years old has the programs required to make Thinkpad wind modems work and they do work..
SuSE 10.1 commerical does not have such programs and it is only 3 months old and it does not work.
Continuing like this is pointless.
Not really I am not trying to solve a technical issue by these posting.. I am trying to solve a SuSE structural issue of why was the technical issue was not solved during development. Why after SuSE being notified with bug notifications in 9.2, 10.0 and alpha, and beta is there still issues with the same device in 10.1
WHICH modem is it? There are different ThinkPads with different modems.
Please install SUSE, execute "/usr/sbin/hwinfo --modem" and post the output here.
This will show us which modem it is, which kernel module it needs and then we can jointly investigate why it is not included.
Andreas Hanke
All I can do this week is bitch. I have other technical issues to solve first. This thread started on a fortunate or unfortunate publication of a news article. If it had not been for that article I would have started this completely differently next week. If this list list is the inappropriate location for airing such gross system failures send me the URL, address, or contact information Senior Vice president of the group in which the idiot that is responsible for this incompetence resides. It is hard to believe that something that worked 3, 5, 10 years back is now so unfunctional. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Hi, SOTL schrieb:
I am not trying to solve a technical issue by these posting..
Thanks, good to know.
I am trying to solve a SuSE structural issue of why was the technical issue was not solved during development.
Why after SuSE being notified with bug notifications in 9.2, 10.0 and alpha, and beta is there still issues with the same device in 10.1
Which technical issue about which modem. The bug id and the hwinfo output, please.
If this list list is the inappropriate location for airing such gross system failures send me the URL, address, or contact information Senior Vice president of the group in which the idiot that is responsible for this incompetence resides. It is hard to believe that something that worked 3, 5, 10 years back is now so unfunctional.
Before posting things like that, it might be much easier to post the hwinfo output. The answer might be as simple as "this modem needs Non-GPL modules to work and we provided them 3, 5, 10 years ago, but don't do so any more". Since you already mentioned that it's about an integrated modem of a Thinkpad laptop, I can tell you the following: 1. Very few Thinkpads have an integrated smartlink softmodem. The kernel module of this driver is not released under a GPL compliant license. 2. Most Thinkpads have an integrated modem with a Conexant chipset. Even worse than smartlink, this driver is not only closed source, it is not even gratis. You can purchase it for 20$ from Linuxant: http://www.linuxant.com Without hwinfo output this discussion becomes mostly philosophical because I can't tell you then which driver you need and why exactly it's not included. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
SOTL wrote:
I am trying to solve a SuSE structural issue of why was the technical issue was not solved during development.
Why after SuSE being notified with bug notifications in 9.2, 10.0 and alpha, and beta is there still issues with the same device in 10.1
I know I'm most likely flogging a dead horse, but why don't you list the bugreport#s so everyone, SUSE in particular, can check what the situation is?
If this list list is the inappropriate location for airing such gross system failures send me the URL, address, or contact information
http://bugzilla.novell.com/ But I urge you first to read Eric S. Raymonds "How To Ask Questions The Smart Way" : http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html /Per Jessen, Zürich --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Per Jessen a écrit :
SOTL wrote:
I am trying to solve a SuSE structural issue of why was the technical issue was not solved during development.
Why after SuSE being notified with bug notifications in 9.2, 10.0 and alpha, and beta is there still issues with the same device in 10.1
I know I'm most likely flogging a dead horse, but why don't you list the bugreport#s so everyone, SUSE in particular, can check what the situation is?
did you miss the post where he said that he forgot the login/pass and create a new login each time? this is a good user practice :-() jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
On Wed, 2006-08-09 at 08:20 +0200, jdd wrote:
Per Jessen a écrit :
SOTL wrote:
I am trying to solve a SuSE structural issue of why was the technical issue was not solved during development.
Why after SuSE being notified with bug notifications in 9.2, 10.0 and alpha, and beta is there still issues with the same device in 10.1
I know I'm most likely flogging a dead horse, but why don't you list the bugreport#s so everyone, SUSE in particular, can check what the situation is?
did you miss the post where he said that he forgot the login/pass and create a new login each time? this is a good user practice :-()
Perhaps a good portion of the problems that SOTL has lay between the keyboard and the chair. -- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
SOTL schrieb:
Silviu Marin-Caea wrote:
On Monday 07 August 2006 15:52, Per Jessen wrote:
Would you care to elaborate? Whether or not an enterprise uses SLED or openSUSE is only a matter of IT policy, not features nor anything else.
The above would be nice if it were true but it is not true.
OpenSuSE does not contain any non open source programs ie ones that may not be used without paying royalties.
SLED is a commercial program which does contain non open source programs ie ones in which one must pay royalties to use.
If you do not need the non open source programs then of course they are then equivalent but if of course you need such programs to make your system work then they are not equivalent.
Last I heard most win modem programs are non open source.
That would seem to imply that if one wanted a laptop to use its internal to connect to the internet and that one was not a geek then would need to purchase SuSE.
Apparently it is very difficult for people to understand that there are two ways of making an operating system work - become a geek or pay a geek to do the work.
If one has different interest say is a medical doctor et then one feel of expertise is not being a geek meaning that it is preferable to pay someone else to be the geek.
Realize OpenSuSE is a geek thing.
SLED is a non geek thing. That is the program that geeks sell to non geeks who have no desires to be a geek so that the geeks can buy non geek things like food and bear.
Very simple stuff. No sale of non geek programs to non geeks then the geeks do not get to eat or drink bear.
can U ( or someone on the list ) translate that into a small term to the point what you wnated to say with it ? I can't get the point of view. thanks, JBScout aka Thomy --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
T. Lodewick wrote:
SOTL schrieb:
Silviu Marin-Caea wrote:
On Monday 07 August 2006 15:52, Per Jessen wrote:
Would you care to elaborate? Whether or not an enterprise uses SLED or openSUSE is only a matter of IT policy, not features nor anything else.
The above would be nice if it were true but it is not true.
OpenSuSE does not contain any non open source programs ie ones that may not be used without paying royalties.
SLED is a commercial program which does contain non open source programs ie ones in which one must pay royalties to use.
If you do not need the non open source programs then of course they are then equivalent but if of course you need such programs to make your system work then they are not equivalent.
Last I heard most win modem programs are non open source.
That would seem to imply that if one wanted a laptop to use its internal to connect to the internet and that one was not a geek then would need to purchase SuSE.
Apparently it is very difficult for people to understand that there are two ways of making an operating system work - become a geek or pay a geek to do the work.
If one has different interest say is a medical doctor et then one feel of expertise is not being a geek meaning that it is preferable to pay someone else to be the geek.
Realize OpenSuSE is a geek thing.
SLED is a non geek thing. That is the program that geeks sell to non geeks who have no desires to be a geek so that the geeks can buy non geek things like food and bear.
Very simple stuff. No sale of non geek programs to non geeks then the geeks do not get to eat or drink bear.
can U ( or someone on the list ) translate that into a small term to the point what you wnated to say with it ? I can't get the point of view.
thanks, JBScout aka Thomy
Keep trying by reread the abovr. If your are still confused ask any non geek and let them explain it to you. I have done my best to and there is a complete failure to comprehend. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
SOTL wrote:
T. Lodewick wrote:
SOTL schrieb:
Silviu Marin-Caea wrote:
On Monday 07 August 2006 15:52, Per Jessen wrote:
Would you care to elaborate? Whether or not an enterprise uses SLED or openSUSE is only a matter of IT policy, not features nor anything else.
The above would be nice if it were true but it is not true.
OpenSuSE does not contain any non open source programs ie ones that may not be used without paying royalties.
SLED is a commercial program which does contain non open source programs ie ones in which one must pay royalties to use.
If you do not need the non open source programs then of course they are then equivalent but if of course you need such programs to make your system work then they are not equivalent.
Last I heard most win modem programs are non open source.
That would seem to imply that if one wanted a laptop to use its internal to connect to the internet and that one was not a geek then would need to purchase SuSE.
Apparently it is very difficult for people to understand that there are two ways of making an operating system work - become a geek or pay a geek to do the work.
If one has different interest say is a medical doctor et then one feel of expertise is not being a geek meaning that it is preferable to pay someone else to be the geek.
Realize OpenSuSE is a geek thing.
SLED is a non geek thing. That is the program that geeks sell to non geeks who have no desires to be a geek so that the geeks can buy non geek things like food and bear.
Very simple stuff. No sale of non geek programs to non geeks then the geeks do not get to eat or drink bear.
can U ( or someone on the list ) translate that into a small term to the point what you wnated to say with it ? I can't get the point of view.
thanks, JBScout aka Thomy
Keep trying by reread the abovr.
If your are still confused ask any non geek and let them explain it to you.
I have done my best to and there is a complete failure to comprehend.
In my first reply to this I thought you were trying to be a wise ass but on reflection I see that you just do not get it and there really is no reason you should unless you are an avid reader of Groklaw. It all goes back to law. If I give you something as no cost (as in monetary or trade value) then when you accept there is an 'implication' of your accepting the good on an "as is" bases. "As is" is a phrase that denotes that there is no liability or warranty given or implied. Note the preceding word 'implication' as not all gifts are "as is". For example of a gift that is not "as is" assume you go to the good old grocery store and a manufacture gives you a sample of a new product; that sample is not given in on "as is" bases but contain the same implied warranty that a commercial product would. On the other hand if I sell you something then what ever that good is there is an implied warranty. For example if you go down and purchase a new car then there is an implication that that car contains all the components necessary to run. You can not indescrimiately leave out such vital components as the spark plugs or tires. The implied warranty would be violated. The same above argument also applies to a good or service if you rent it or license it. Same concept but there is a slight difference in vocublary but the concept isw the same. Now lets translate this to Linux. If I down load OpenSuSE there is no implied warranty that OpenSuSE will work pon my computer and no guarantee of performance. On the other hand if I purchase a box set of comerical SuSE ther is an implied warranty and in many locations a guarantee warranty by law that the product will perform as expected. If it does not then the product is in violation of its warranty and may be subject to none to severe legal penalties depending on purchase location. If it can be demonstrated that the product failure was due to gross neglance (inability to connect to the internet by modem) and that resulted in substantial damages to the consumer then it may be that the consumer is not only legally able to obtain their purchase price of the good back but that the consumer may be in fact be able to recover consiquental damages. To translate this latter assume Mr. Consummer purchases a good for $100.00 which does not perform as expected due to gross neglance in the manufacture of the good and the manufacture was aware of this then the manufacture may be liable to the consumer for the $1,000,000.00 consequential damage that non performance of the good caused. Non commercial - OpenSuSE and Commercial SuSE are two radically different worlds legally worlds. I can here some here say but OpenSuSE is developed by contributions with all programs being subject to one form or another of an open source licenses (There are half a dozen and this is simplified overview so I will not list them.) so that means that commercial SuSE's programs are that way too. Not so. The license for use of the program may be exactly the same but and that is a big BUT the fact that SuSE aggregation (no matter who did the work it was sold by SuSE) means that SuSE guarantees the product to work. That is where the issue with the modem comes in. If it can be shown that in a court of law that the product did work in an earlier version and due to incompetence of the aggregators that the does not now work then there could be (again depending on location) major legal issues and financial penalties to SuSE. You can get better explanations for some of the issues by keeping up with Groklaw and as I am not a lawyer everything stated above should not be taken as a legal opinion; only as to an explanation of the previous post is implying. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 08 August 2006 21:27, SOTL wrote:
On the other hand if I purchase a box set of comerical SuSE ther is an implied warranty and in many locations a guarantee warranty by law that the product will perform as expected. If it does not then the product is in violation of its warranty and may be subject to none to severe legal penalties depending on purchase location. If it can be demonstrated that the product failure was due to gross neglance (inability to connect to the internet by modem) and that resulted in substantial damages to the consumer then it may be that the consumer is not only legally able to obtain their purchase price of the good back but that the consumer may be in fact be able to recover consiquental damages. To translate this latter assume Mr. Consummer purchases a good for $100.00 which does not perform as expected due to gross neglance in the manufacture of the good and the manufacture was aware of this then the manufacture may be liable to the consumer for the $1,000,000.00 consequential damage that non performance of the good caused.
My modem works fine under 10.1, although I don't need to use it unless my ADSL fails. I suggest you speak to the modem manufacturer to determine where the problem is, although I have an idea what it might be. I think you do too. Cheers Pete --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
SOTL a écrit :
On the other hand if I purchase a box set of comerical SuSE ther is an implied warranty
if such a garanty would exist, then the Redmond company would be out of market for a long time now :-)))) You could argue is the product could not install at all (and I'm not sure of that) I have on my desk a laptop. with suse 10.0 it could work with pcmcia cd writer, networks, but not internal modem (I don't use it and so did not even try to make it work). with windows millenium, I have the modem, but neither cd writer nor network... what is the better OS? of course I think I will have all running quickly if I need it, but searching for win drivers on the net without netwoark is not funny :-) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 08 August 2006 20:24, SOTL wrote:
Keep trying by reread the abovr.
If your are still confused ask any non geek and let them explain it to you.
I have done my best to and there is a complete failure to comprehend.
View it like this: The modem driver is a closed source--binary blob. That just SUCKS MONKEY ASS. It can cause all sorts of problems in the kernel that would affect the whole OS. The Right Way (tm) to have it in Linux would be Open Source modem driver. You would think that the modem manufacturers would have the decency to open-source their drivers for their piece of shit modems, because they're *dying* hardware anyway. No innovation is going on there, it's just riding into the sunset (to rot peacefully). So what happened until now is this: kernel developers and distributions were tolerating binary blobs, to have working modems. But the blobs don't seem to transform into Open Source. They want to have kid blobs. This would be just very bad for kernel. Kernel has been advancing so nicely until now because drivers in it are open source and can be changed, optimized. If too many drivers become Closed Source, the kernel would be suffocated and you would not enjoy the same stability that you do now. What would happen then? You would start to bitch about the kernel right? What is happening now: recognizing the danger that the binary blobs pose, the kernel developers are starting to fight it. A temporary casualty is your modem--it does not work with the distro out of the box. It still can be made to work, by installing the binary-blob. But remember, the Right Way is to have the driver open source. Perhaps the stupid modem manufacturers would "get it" and do that. Then the driver would be into the kernel in the next week, it would work out-of-the-box on every distribution, it would have less bugs, all the good that comes out of Open Source. Again, view it like this: It's not SUSE's fault that your driver is not included, it's the stupid modem manufacturer's fault. Bitch to them! Really, seriously. That is what I do. Explain to them that their attitude about the Linux driver is causing you trouble using their product, and that you will buy something else. That's what I did! I bought an external modem. Who lost money in this? The stupid winmodem manufacturers. And I, because an external modem is more expensive and more inconvenient, with another box and cables around. But I did it because I like Open Source and I understand and see the greater good it does. I care much more about it than I care for some stupid winmodem manufacturer. I know you have the feeling that people on the list don't get your point. I do get it, and it's valid. But I don't agree with the method you suggest--going forward with accepting more binary blobs into the kernel. It's very, very damaging, long term. I believe it's better to bear with the small pain right now and be healthy later, than get morphine. Did this bring a clarification to the problem? --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Silviu Marin-Caea wrote:
On Monday 07 August 2006 15:52, Per Jessen wrote:
Would you care to elaborate? Whether or not an enterprise uses SLED or openSUSE is only a matter of IT policy, not features nor anything else. If the stability, service and support of SLED is preferred
I would think that for a corporate executive's laptop, stability, service and support of SLED is preferred.
Like I said, that is purely a matter of IT-policy - definitely not the corporate executive's preferences :-)
You seem to view things only from a position of administering a small IT environment. Even so, it's no fun reinstalling stations every two years, when the consummer distro is out of maintenance.
And to be quite frank, you seem to view things a little blinkered - why would you need to reinstall just because the consumer distro is out of maintenance? We have a number of systems where that has long been the case - no trouble maintaining them sofar. The oldest is a server still running 7.1. /Per Jessen, Zürich --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
On Wednesday 09 August 2006 00:07, Per Jessen wrote:
Silviu Marin-Caea wrote:
On Monday 07 August 2006 15:52, Per Jessen wrote:
Would you care to elaborate? Whether or not an enterprise uses SLED or openSUSE is only a matter of IT policy, not features nor anything else. If the stability, service and support of SLED is preferred
I would think that for a corporate executive's laptop, stability, service and support of SLED is preferred.
Like I said, that is purely a matter of IT-policy - definitely not the corporate executive's preferences :-)
Rephrase: I would think that for a corporate executive's laptop, stability, service and support of SLED is preferred by the IT.
You seem to view things only from a position of administering a small IT environment. Even so, it's no fun reinstalling stations every two years, when the consummer distro is out of maintenance.
And to be quite frank, you seem to view things a little blinkered - why would you need to reinstall just because the consumer distro is out of maintenance? We have a number of systems where that has long been the case - no trouble maintaining them sofar. The oldest is a server still running 7.1.
Now assume that business requires that you need to install something new on that. It is a PITA, too much effort & time. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Silviu Marin-Caea a écrit :
Now assume that business requires that you need to install something new on that. It is a PITA, too much effort & time.
assume you want to install a new thing on w98? I don't hope for you to have ave to install XP on an old laptop... finding XP drivers for old hardware is a nightmare, when SUSE installs most of the HW silently jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Now assume that business requires that you need to install something new on that. It is a PITA, too much effort & time.
assume you want to install a new thing on w98?
I don't hope for you to have ave to install XP on an old laptop...
finding XP drivers for old hardware is a nightmare, when SUSE installs most of the HW silently
You know... it's funny how people are. SUSE installs off the DVD and IDs and installs the drivers for 99% of the hardware they have.. and fails on one thing. For that one thing they need to go out on to the internet and find/download the driver (usually there is one... like the nVidia driver for example) or come to the list here for a little assistnace. They encounter this and get all hot and bothered. Yet... Yet if they go and install the latest version of XP (with SP2 slipstreamed in even) they still have to go out and download/install.. the video driver - the default XP video driver is unusable. They have to download/find/install the motherboard drivers to get the network and sound working (assuming they are using the onboard NIC and AC/97 sound) - and they are SOL if they don't have the CD/DVD that came with the motherboard because they will not be able to get the network up and running using the stuff that is on the XP master disk. If they are unlucky and have an older version of XP (pre SP2), their USB devices won't work right until they install a sep USB driver. They will often need to install sep drivers for the modem.. the scanner, the printer (and god help them if they have the HP AllInOne printer/scanner/fax thing... and try to get that working "out of the box" in XP). Bluetooth? Ha ha ha... yah right... good luck getting that to work on XP without having to do anything. The list goes on and on.... and apparently it's OK to have to do this with Windows, yet when one thing poses a little obstacle in Linux - if the modem doesn't work "out of the box" because you have to buy/downlaod/install a binary driver... or the video doesn't work in full 3D mode because you have to download and install a sep binary driver, the world comes to an end, they drop Linux like it was poisoned... and go back to Windows all while grumping that Linux is crap. Well, they are fooling themselves. Let them rant because they are happy being blinded by their own misconceptions. C. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Clayton wrote:
The list goes on and on.... and apparently it's OK to have to do this with Windows, yet when one thing poses a little obstacle in Linux - if the modem doesn't work "out of the box" because you have to buy/downlaod/install a binary driver... or the video doesn't work in full 3D mode because you have to download and install a sep binary driver, the world comes to an end, they drop Linux like it was poisoned... and go back to Windows all while grumping that Linux is crap.
Well said, Clayton. /Per Jessen, Zürich --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
On Wednesday 09 August 2006 12:59 am, Clayton wrote:
Now assume that business requires that you need to install something new on that. It is a PITA, too much effort & time.
assume you want to install a new thing on w98?
I don't hope for you to have ave to install XP on an old laptop...
finding XP drivers for old hardware is a nightmare, when SUSE installs most of the HW silently
You know... it's funny how people are. SUSE installs off the DVD and IDs and installs the drivers for 99% of the hardware they have.. and fails on one thing. For that one thing they need to go out on to the internet and find/download the driver (usually there is one... like the nVidia driver for example) or come to the list here for a little assistnace. They encounter this and get all hot and bothered.
Yet...
Yet if they go and install the latest version of XP (with SP2 slipstreamed in even) they still have to go out and download/install.. the video driver - the default XP video driver is unusable. They have to download/find/install the motherboard drivers to get the network and sound working (assuming they are using the onboard NIC and AC/97 sound) - and they are SOL if they don't have the CD/DVD that came with the motherboard because they will not be able to get the network up and running using the stuff that is on the XP master disk. If they are unlucky and have an older version of XP (pre SP2), their USB devices won't work right until they install a sep USB driver. They will often need to install sep drivers for the modem.. the scanner, the printer (and god help them if they have the HP AllInOne printer/scanner/fax thing... and try to get that working "out of the box" in XP). Bluetooth? Ha ha ha... yah right... good luck getting that to work on XP without having to do anything.
The list goes on and on.... and apparently it's OK to have to do this with Windows, yet when one thing poses a little obstacle in Linux - if the modem doesn't work "out of the box" because you have to buy/downlaod/install a binary driver... or the video doesn't work in full 3D mode because you have to download and install a sep binary driver, the world comes to an end, they drop Linux like it was poisoned... and go back to Windows all while grumping that Linux is crap.
Well, they are fooling themselves. Let them rant because they are happy being blinded by their own misconceptions.
C.
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All I can say is WOW... That was great... Can I use part of that in a sig? ;) Joe
Silviu Marin-Caea wrote:
Rephrase: I would think that for a corporate executive's laptop, stability, service and support of SLED is preferred by the IT.
But you have yet to explain why. And as I've been saying, it's purely down to policy. I've spent a lot of my working life in large IBM installations - some places prefer to leave all maintenance to IBM, some even outsource it to IBM. Other places have departments of e.g. 20-30 people dabbling away in the OS all day (and night occasionally) to get that very last bit of performance. For the former, applying a maintenance patch is a matter of course, for the latter, each and every patch provided by IBM will be scrutinized to make sure it doesn't upset anything. I don't see why it should be any different for using SUSE Linux - some places will be quite happy to get a SLEx release and install maintenance when and as provided by SUSE, other places will have a more hands-on approach and do everything themselves. All down to IT policy (and skills available).
maintenance? We have a number of systems where that has long been the case - no trouble maintaining them sofar. The oldest is a server still running 7.1.
Now assume that business requires that you need to install something new on that. It is a PITA, too much effort & time.
Well, perhaps - I'd just get the source and build it. But of course such an old system rarely needs anything new - that's why it's being kept like that. /Per Jessen, Zürich --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Martin Schlander wrote:
Onsdag 02 august 2006 16:37 skrev SOTL:
Any way these are some thoughts on why SuSE is going the route of Red Hat.
I've made similar points to the article before: that having a good home-user product is strategically important to get into the enterprise. And that is the reason why Mark Shuttleworth has invested in shipping cds all over the place (I think there must be more doo-doo-brown Ubuntu cds than there are computers on this planet).
However I agree with the decision by Novell concerning binary-only kernel-modules - and before long Ubuntu will probably (hopefully) be forced to make the same decision.
I think you're way too fast with claims of SUSE going the Red Hat route.
Most of us agree that 10.1 has been horrific all in all. But this is only _one_ release. Wait and see if 10.2 won't be the greatest distro - or should we say the greatest OS - ever.. It has all the possibility in the world to become so. If 10.2 is screwed up too _then_ we have a problem.
And look at the 10.1 problems - apart from the kernel module decision - all the problems had one reason: (testing for) SLED. Fortunately SLED has a two year release cycle and thus won't screw up our distro again - at least for a while.
Give (open)SUSE the benefit of the doubt - at least until 10.2 - and I'm sure you'll see your conclusions are wrong.
Martin, SOTL doesn't talk about himself and what he mentioned is the problem. Is this right place to complain? Probably not, but it is obvious that is asking for attention. Kernel developers did what they had to do, but now there is important empty space that has to be filled. It is not their duty to develop drivers for any company, but those that make money from working solution, and loose if it doesn't, should put more effort in this. Would be that helping original vendor to find time to develop user space driver, or something else, it's up to decision makers. Long time SUSE users will not leave without long stretch of "mistakes" and for sure it is not enough one release to disappoint them, but everyone involved should think of this: Anyone has "My list of companies that I will not deal with, because they sold me a lemon", and it is a place that is hard to leave. There is so many choices, even ubiquitous vendors are not excused forever. It doesn't help to make money if you land there. Perception that SUSE Linux (now openSUSE) is accepted as a playground is correct, but it was never a sandbox where you can break things at will. Free SUSE Linux was long time the same as professional and enterprise editions, just missing support and couple of commercial packages. The name change of SUSE Linux to openSUSE changes nothing in perception, it is still SUSE. -- Regards, Rajko. Visit http://en.opensuse.org/MiniSUSE --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Onsdag 02 august 2006 16:37 skrev SOTL:
Back to the subject (above) you can read all about it by reading the article Why Red Hat will go bust because of Ubuntu at: Free Software Magazine http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/articles/editorial_13
I was quick to dismiss claims that SUSE/Novell would make the same mistake as Red Hat and more or less quit having a good stable product for home and small offices. Now I'm concerned again though - just listened to Novell Open Audio - episode: "SLE 10: Top 5 reasons for SUSE Linux Enterprise 10". In this episode Ted Haeger kindly explains to us the difference between SLE 10 and "openSUSE" as he's always liked to call it. Apparently SUSE Linux is a bleeding edge distro, only aimed at Linux geeks - with only one purpose - namely testing and maturing stuff for SLE. Not one word about (open)SUSE being a nice and stable distro that's supposed to increase use of Linux at home and small offices. Of course the openSUSE-project description states: "We work together to create and distribute the world's most usable Linux." I must have gotten this wrong - I thought we were working together to make (open)SUSE better - but apparently the Linux-distro we're making usable is SLE. Nice of Ted Haeger to inform us what's going on in and around Novell. Someone please tell me, that this man is _wrong_. Martin --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Martin Schlander wrote:
Onsdag 02 august 2006 16:37 skrev SOTL:
Back to the subject (above) you can read all about it by reading the article Why Red Hat will go bust because of Ubuntu at: Free Software Magazine http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/articles/editorial_13
I was quick to dismiss claims that SUSE/Novell would make the same mistake as Red Hat and more or less quit having a good stable product for home and small offices.
Now I'm concerned again though - just listened to Novell Open Audio - episode: "SLE 10: Top 5 reasons for SUSE Linux Enterprise 10".
In this episode Ted Haeger kindly explains to us the difference between SLE 10 and "openSUSE" as he's always liked to call it.
Apparently SUSE Linux is a bleeding edge distro, only aimed at Linux geeks - with only one purpose - namely testing and maturing stuff for SLE.
Not one word about (open)SUSE being a nice and stable distro that's supposed to increase use of Linux at home and small offices.
Of course the openSUSE-project description states: "We work together to create and distribute the world's most usable Linux." I must have gotten this wrong - I thought we were working together to make (open)SUSE better - but apparently the Linux-distro we're making usable is SLE. Nice of Ted Haeger to inform us what's going on in and around Novell.
Someone please tell me, that this man is _wrong_.
Martin
He is not wrong. He is oh so very very right. This is the exact attitude that crashed Mandrake and the Mandrake list. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
On Mon, Aug 07, 2006 at 10:50:29AM -0400, SOTL wrote:
Martin Schlander wrote:
Onsdag 02 august 2006 16:37 skrev SOTL:
Back to the subject (above) you can read all about it by reading the article Why Red Hat will go bust because of Ubuntu at: Free Software Magazine http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/articles/editorial_13
I was quick to dismiss claims that SUSE/Novell would make the same mistake as Red Hat and more or less quit having a good stable product for home and small offices.
Now I'm concerned again though - just listened to Novell Open Audio - episode: "SLE 10: Top 5 reasons for SUSE Linux Enterprise 10".
In this episode Ted Haeger kindly explains to us the difference between SLE 10 and "openSUSE" as he's always liked to call it.
Apparently SUSE Linux is a bleeding edge distro, only aimed at Linux geeks - with only one purpose - namely testing and maturing stuff for SLE.
Not one word about (open)SUSE being a nice and stable distro that's supposed to increase use of Linux at home and small offices.
Of course the openSUSE-project description states: "We work together to create and distribute the world's most usable Linux." I must have gotten this wrong - I thought we were working together to make (open)SUSE better - but apparently the Linux-distro we're making usable is SLE. Nice of Ted Haeger to inform us what's going on in and around Novell.
Someone please tell me, that this man is _wrong_.
Martin
He is not wrong.
He is oh so very very right.
This is the exact attitude that crashed Mandrake and the Mandrake list.
At least we at SUSE do not see it this way yet. Ciao, Marcus --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Marcus Meissner wrote:
On Mon, Aug 07, 2006 at 10:50:29AM -0400, SOTL wrote:
Martin Schlander wrote:
Onsdag 02 august 2006 16:37 skrev SOTL:
Back to the subject (above) you can read all about it by reading the article Why Red Hat will go bust because of Ubuntu at: Free Software Magazine http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/articles/editorial_13
I was quick to dismiss claims that SUSE/Novell would make the same mistake as Red Hat and more or less quit having a good stable product for home and small offices.
Now I'm concerned again though - just listened to Novell Open Audio - episode: "SLE 10: Top 5 reasons for SUSE Linux Enterprise 10".
In this episode Ted Haeger kindly explains to us the difference between SLE 10 and "openSUSE" as he's always liked to call it.
Apparently SUSE Linux is a bleeding edge distro, only aimed at Linux geeks - with only one purpose - namely testing and maturing stuff for SLE.
Not one word about (open)SUSE being a nice and stable distro that's supposed to increase use of Linux at home and small offices.
Of course the openSUSE-project description states: "We work together to create and distribute the world's most usable Linux." I must have gotten this wrong - I thought we were working together to make (open)SUSE better - but apparently the Linux-distro we're making usable is SLE. Nice of Ted Haeger to inform us what's going on in and around Novell.
Someone please tell me, that this man is _wrong_.
Martin
He is not wrong.
He is oh so very very right.
This is the exact attitude that crashed Mandrake and the Mandrake list.
At least we at SUSE do not see it this way yet.
Ciao, Marcus
That is the problem - the belief that this happens to everybody else but we ar immune. Latest update on original article at Slash Dot @ http://interviews.slashdot.org/interviews/06/08/07/1236257.shtml Fedora Project <http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/> Leader Max Spevack <http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/MaxSpevack> offered himself up for this interview because, he said, "I look at stories like [your] posting Ubuntu to Bring About Red Hat's Demise <http://linux.slashdot.org/linux/06/08/02/0238233.shtml?tid=110> and many of the comments about Red Hat and Fedora seem very rooted in the world of several years ago, when the RHEL/Fedora split took place." Which would bring the article directly in line with SuSE today. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Mandag 07 august 2006 16:54 skrev Marcus Meissner:
Martin Schlander wrote:
Apparently SUSE Linux is a bleeding edge distro, only aimed at Linux geeks - with only one purpose - namely testing and maturing stuff for SLE.
Not one word about (open)SUSE being a nice and stable distro that's supposed to increase use of Linux at home and small offices.
Someone please tell me, that this man is _wrong_.
At least we at SUSE do not see it this way yet.
Ciao, Marcus
Nice to hear you say it, Marcus. Martin --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
Nope, he's not wrong, unfortunately. Mandriva suffered this fate, and Suse/Novell are suffering the same fate. It will take a while, but it's getting there. You have to realize that just because something is community oriented doesn't mean that money isn't creeping in somewhere. Microsoft is starting to give away loads of cash, because they are done innovating, and don't need to put it into research any longer. These things go in cycles, unfortunately. ALL commercial companies suffer this fate. RP SOTL wrote:
I was quick to dismiss claims that SUSE/Novell would make the same mistake as Red Hat and more or less quit having a good stable product for home and small offices.
Now I'm concerned again though - just listened to Novell Open Audio - episode: "SLE 10: Top 5 reasons for SUSE Linux Enterprise 10".
In this episode Ted Haeger kindly explains to us the difference between SLE 10 and "openSUSE" as he's always liked to call it. Apparently SUSE Linux is a bleeding edge distro, only aimed at Linux geeks - with only one purpose - namely testing and maturing stuff for SLE. Not one word about (open)SUSE being a nice and stable distro that's supposed to increase use of Linux at home and small offices.
Of course the openSUSE-project description states: "We work together to create and distribute the world's most usable Linux." I must have gotten this wrong - I thought we were working together to make (open)SUSE better - but apparently the Linux-distro we're making usable is SLE. Nice of Ted Haeger to inform us what's going on in and around Novell.
Someone please tell me, that this man is _wrong_.
Martin
He is not wrong.
He is oh so very very right.
This is the exact attitude that crashed Mandrake and the Mandrake list.
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--------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org
On Mon, Aug 07, 2006 at 04:20:35PM +0200, Martin Schlander wrote:
Not one word about (open)SUSE being a nice and stable distro that's supposed to increase use of Linux at home and small offices.
Of course the openSUSE-project description states: "We work together to create and distribute the world's most usable Linux." I must have gotten this wrong - I thought we were working together to make (open)SUSE better - but apparently the Linux-distro we're making usable is SLE. Nice of Ted Haeger to inform us what's going on in and around Novell.
Someone please tell me, that this man is _wrong_.
Follow-up on this question / discussion in the latest Novell Open Audio Episode: Ted admits he got it wrong ;-) See http://www.novell.com/company/podcasts/openaudio.html, the rest of the episode contains interviews with the SUSE Autobuild and QA teams which might be interesting for you as well. cheers, Sonja -- Sonja Krause-Harder (skh@suse.de) Research & Development SUSE Linux Products GmbH --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
participants (23)
-
Andreas Hanke -
Andreas Jaeger -
Clayton -
David Nalley -
Fred A. Miller -
Janne Karhunen -
jdd -
Joe Giles -
Juergen Weigert -
Kenneth Schneider -
Marcus Meissner -
Marcus Rueckert -
Martin Schlander -
Pascal Bleser -
Per Jessen -
Pete Connolly -
Rajko M -
Rebecca Walter -
Renegade Penguin -
Silviu Marin-Caea -
Sonja Krause-Harder -
SOTL -
T. Lodewick