[opensuse] 10 days out - 12.3 recommendations - openSUSE Users

[opensuse] 10 days out - 12.3 recommendations

John Andersen

3 Mar 2013 3 Mar '13

23:58

I'm running 12.3rc2 is a virtual machine, but am planning to redo my main laptop in 12.3 when its final. (Its currently hanging back at 11.4 waiting for 12.3). So the same question that comes up every time I look at re-basing my machine: Nuke and fresh install or Upgrade in place? With that many releases between refreshes my gut reaction is to nuke it and start over, but I just wanted to bounce it off you guys in case the in-place upgrade process has improved over time. The machine is my primary traveler and absolute must host VmWare. Nothing spectacular about this Dell 9400 laptop, it has an aging Radeon and a big enough disk. Its been spectacularly reliable over the years. -- _____________________________________ ---This space for rent--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

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Basil Chupin

4 Mar 4 Mar

00:17

On 04/03/13 10:58, John Andersen wrote:

...

I'm running 12.3rc2 is a virtual machine, but am planning to redo my main laptop in 12.3 when its final. (Its currently hanging back at 11.4 waiting for 12.3).

So the same question that comes up every time I look at re-basing my machine: Nuke and fresh install or Upgrade in place?

Take my advice: "nuke" and do a clean install. Upgrading leaves garbage behind which will eventually come and bite you on the bum. If it isn't too late (ie, you still have space on the HDD) create a new partition - call it, say, 'data' and within this create a folder <whatever>; then symlink to this folder your /.mozilla, /.thunderbird, Downloads, Documents, whatever else you consider ESSENTIAL. This way when you install fresh and your Home is being overwritten all your essential data is safely stored in /data/<whatever>/ and you then recreate the symlinks to this in the new, fresh /home. On my system I have /data/Symed/ as the storage of my essentials and I symlink for /home to this storage. (And I then regularly backup just the one directory, /data/Symed, to a memory stick.) [pruned] BC -- Using openSUSE 12.2 x86_64 KDE 4.10.00 & kernel 3.8.1-2 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel Corsair "Vengeance" RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX550Ti 1GB DDR5 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Adam Tauno Williams

15:48

On Mon, 2013-03-04 at 11:17 +1100, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

On 04/03/13 10:58, John Andersen wrote:

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I'm running 12.3rc2 is a virtual machine, but am planning to redo my main laptop in 12.3 when its final. (Its currently hanging back at 11.4 waiting for 12.3). So the same question that comes up every time I look at re-basing my machine: Nuke and fresh install or Upgrade in place? Take my advice: "nuke" and do a clean install.

Nah, I've been doing in-place upgrades since 11.4 on my laptops and workstations. It has been a very solid trouble free road. Now, you probably do want to nuke and reinstall if you've trashed you machine with third-party or custom built binaries, or you've used dozens of repositories. But that doesn't apply to most people who have no business doing such things. -- Adam Tauno Williams GPG D95ED383 Systems Administrator, Python Developer, LPI / NCLA -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

01:05

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 El 2013-03-03 a las 15:58 -0800, John Andersen escribió:

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So the same question that comes up every time I look at re-basing my machine: Nuke and fresh install or Upgrade in place?

Matter of choice. Depends on how much you add to your system, and whether just keeping /home intact will retain all that you want to retain. Me, I always upgrade. I have been doing that for over a decade. http://en.opensuse.org/SDB:System_upgrade http://en.opensuse.org/SDB:Offline_upgrade

...

The machine is my primary traveler and absolute must host VmWare.

Test it. Test whatever you must have before doing any upgrade or nuking. - -- Cheers Carlos E. R. (from 11.4, with Evergreen, x86_64 "Celadon" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlEz81EACgkQja8UbcUWM1wN1QD/VPsTQ1/MR6FBuFLdvbXsfswH bq5kMkZASbVocz09WpABAJd4QxwUj1SQjKHdkAeTCbyBRam5Gu5D26G+BHIJ+583 =vssb -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Istvan Gabor

10:30

2013. március 4. 0:58 napon John Andersen írta:

...

I'm running 12.3rc2 is a virtual machine, but am planning to redo my main laptop in 12.3 when its final. (Its currently hanging back at 11.4 waiting for 12.3).

So the same question that comes up every time I look at re-basing my machine: Nuke and fresh install or Upgrade in place?

With that many releases between refreshes my gut reaction is to nuke it and start over, but I just wanted to bounce it off you guys in case the in-place upgrade process has improved over time.

The machine is my primary traveler and absolute must host VmWare.

Nothing spectacular about this Dell 9400 laptop, it has an aging Radeon and a big enough disk. Its been spectacularly reliable over the years.

I suggest not removing your old OS until you are sure everything you need works in the new OS as expected. That is, install OS 12.3 on a new partition, copy your home dir content to it and test it for weeks. There are too many substantial changes between recent openSUSE releases, which might result in unstable, unreliable behavior that not obvious at first. (For example in openSUSE 12.1 on my hardware samba service is randomly started or not started at boot. For this reason I had to stay with 11.2. on some machines.) Be prepared for easter eggs. I also suggest that you keep your home partition separately from system partition. In that case you can mount your home dir in any OS. Cheers, Istvan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

John Andersen

19:35

On 3/4/2013 2:30 AM, Istvan Gabor wrote:

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I suggest not removing your old OS until you are sure everything you need works in the new OS as expected. That is, install OS 12.3 on a new partition, copy your home dir content to it and test it for weeks. There are too many substantial changes between recent openSUSE releases, which might result in unstable, unreliable behavior that not obvious at first. (For example in openSUSE 12.1 on my hardware samba service is randomly started or not started at boot. For this reason I had to stay with 11.2. on some machines.) Be prepared for easter eggs.

I also suggest that you keep your home partition separately from system partition. In that case you can mount your home dir in any OS.

Cheers,

Istvan

Lucky for me I have always installed /home as a separate partition. (I've been variously upgrading or nuking since Suse 7.x) I also regularly backup the entire machine, preserving permissions etc. I worry more about the switching to systemd and some of the other changes since 11.4, which (for me at least) has been amazingly stable, but has fallen out of maintenance. So the question was not only about the probability of success for an in-place upgrade to 12.3, but also the suitability of that approach. Carlos indicated it works fine but It wasn't clear if he did that in one jump or many. The only odd feature I need is the requirement to host VmWare imposed by my day job. -- _____________________________________ ---This space for rent--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

22:38

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 Content-ID: El 2013-03-04 a las 11:35 -0800, John Andersen escribió:

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I worry more about the switching to systemd and some of the other changes since 11.4, which (for me at least) has been amazingly stable, but has fallen out of maintenance.

Not so. Switch to Evergreen, 11.4 is to maintained till 2014 and some thing. https://en.opensuse.org/Evergreen

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Carlos indicated it works fine but It wasn't clear if he did that in one jump or many.

I haven't done that particular upgrade. Plus, as I wrote one of the two wiki pages I pointed you to as documentation, whatever I have to say I already did there ;-)

...

The only odd feature I need is the requirement to host VmWare imposed by my day job.

For which you must test by installing on a spare partition on the same machine, there is no other way. - -- Cheers Carlos E. R. (from 11.4, with Evergreen, x86_64 "Celadon" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlE1InoACgkQja8UbcUWM1zQdAEAiN1FJ+vhLSxPtFT7w+tQbqmy RLCfz979lD9Xs0JPrfwA/iSbh3IdjlWloVr//6JiZ7zfx+CZJrK0tNCiOFIl677l =8YTW -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

DenverD

5 Mar 5 Mar

09:08

On 03/04/2013 11:38 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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I worry more about the switching to systemd and some of the other changes since 11.4, which (for me at least) has been amazingly stable, but has fallen out of maintenance.

Not so. Switch to Evergreen, 11.4 is to maintained till 2014 and some thing.

https://en.opensuse.org/Evergreen

+1 the move to Evergreen is simple [just add one repo and then run YaST Online Update, or "zypper patch"], and your 11.4 is good to July 2014! [note, there is a kernel change, but without nvidia/etc drivers needed here it was a simple change, for _me_] its my stable/dependable daily driver!! dd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin

09:52

On 05/03/13 20:08, DenverD wrote:

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On 03/04/2013 11:38 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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...
I worry more about the switching to systemd and some of the other changes since 11.4, which (for me at least) has been amazingly stable, but has fallen out of maintenance.

Not so. Switch to Evergreen, 11.4 is to maintained till 2014 and some thing.

https://en.opensuse.org/Evergreen

+1

the move to Evergreen is simple [just add one repo and then run YaST Online Update, or "zypper patch"], and your 11.4 is good to July 2014! [note, there is a kernel change, but without nvidia/etc drivers needed here it was a simple change, for _me_]

its my stable/dependable daily driver!!

dd

I would have thought that switching to Tumbleweed was the more appropriate thing to do. BC -- Using openSUSE 12.3 x86_64 KDE 4.10.00 & kernel 3.8.1-2 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel Corsair "Vengeance" RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX550Ti 1GB DDR5 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

DenverD

15:15

On 03/05/2013 10:52 AM, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

...
the move to Evergreen is simple [just add one repo and then run YaST Online Update, or "zypper patch"], and your 11.4 is good to July 2014! [note, there is a kernel change, but without nvidia/etc drivers needed here it was a simple change, for _me_]

I would have thought that switching to Tumbleweed was the more appropriate thing to do.

are you saying you think the most recently release new version with adds from factory is more stable/dependable/predictable than a two year old version with bug fixes and security patches on top? if so, then you understand software development exactly backwards. dd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin

6 Mar 6 Mar

06:58

On 06/03/13 02:15, DenverD wrote:

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On 03/05/2013 10:52 AM, Basil Chupin wrote:

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...
the move to Evergreen is simple [just add one repo and then run YaST Online Update, or "zypper patch"], and your 11.4 is good to July 2014! [note, there is a kernel change, but without nvidia/etc drivers needed here it was a simple change, for _me_]

I would have thought that switching to Tumbleweed was the more appropriate thing to do.

are you saying you think the most recently release new version with adds from factory is more stable/dependable/predictable than a two year old version with bug fixes and security patches on top?

I am not saying this at all, in any shape, form, or size.

...

if so, then you understand software development exactly backwards.

Thanks for this, but I think that the shoe is on the other foot in your case. Here is a direct quote from the Portal about Tumbleweed: quote The Tumbleweed project provides a rolling updates version of openSUSE containing the latest stable versions of all software instead of relying on rigid periodic release cycles. The project does this for users that want the newest, but stable software. The difference to Factory is that Factory is bleeding edge, often experimental, not yet stabilized software that needs more work to become useful. Tumbleweed contains the latest stable applications and is ready for daily use. unquote You can read all this for yourself here: http://en.opensuse.org/Tumbleweed

...

dd

BC -- Using openSUSE 12.3 x86_64 KDE 4.10.00 & kernel 3.8.2-1 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel Corsair "Vengeance" RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX550Ti 1GB DDR5 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Christofer Bell

13:02

On 3/6/13 12:58 AM, "Basil Chupin" wrote:

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On 06/03/13 02:15, DenverD wrote:

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On 03/05/2013 10:52 AM, Basil Chupin wrote:

...
...
the move to Evergreen is simple [just add one repo and then run YaST Online Update, or "zypper patch"], and your 11.4 is good to July 2014! [note, there is a kernel change, but without nvidia/etc drivers needed here it was a simple change, for _me_]

I would have thought that switching to Tumbleweed was the more appropriate thing to do.

are you saying you think the most recently release new version with adds from factory is more stable/dependable/predictable than a two year old version with bug fixes and security patches on top?

I am not saying this at all, in any shape, form, or size.

Yes, you are. People who want Evergreen *do not* want Tumbleweed. People who want Evergreen *do not* want *anything* that's new. So in circumstances where Evergreen is appropriate, switching to Tumbleweed instead is *NOT* appropriate. -- Chris -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin

13:38

On 07/03/13 00:02, Christofer Bell wrote:

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On 3/6/13 12:58 AM, "Basil Chupin" wrote:

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On 06/03/13 02:15, DenverD wrote:

...
On 03/05/2013 10:52 AM, Basil Chupin wrote:

...
...
the move to Evergreen is simple [just add one repo and then run YaST Online Update, or "zypper patch"], and your 11.4 is good to July 2014! [note, there is a kernel change, but without nvidia/etc drivers needed here it was a simple change, for _me_]

I would have thought that switching to Tumbleweed was the more appropriate thing to do. are you saying you think the most recently release new version with adds from factory is more stable/dependable/predictable than a two year old version with bug fixes and security patches on top? I am not saying this at all, in any shape, form, or size. Yes, you are. People who want Evergreen *do not* want Tumbleweed. People who want Evergreen *do not* want *anything* that's new. So in circumstances where Evergreen is appropriate, switching to Tumbleweed instead is *NOT* appropriate.

I don't understand. If those who use Evergreen don't want anything that's new then why not simply install, say, 12.1 and switch off any and all options which will update that system? That is, no patches, no *new* versions of Firefox or Thunderbird or whatever. Just stick with the original installation and stay with it for 20 years or so - if this is what "Evergreeners" are all about. BC -- Using openSUSE 12.2 x86_64 KDE 4.10.00 & kernel 3.8.2-1 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel Corsair "Vengeance" RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX550Ti 1GB DDR5 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

13:53

Basil Chupin wrote:

...

On 07/03/13 00:02, Christofer Bell wrote:

...
On 3/6/13 12:58 AM, "Basil Chupin" wrote:

People who want Evergreen *do not* want Tumbleweed. People who want Evergreen *do not* want *anything* that's new. So in circumstances where Evergreen is appropriate, switching to Tumbleweed instead is *NOT* appropriate.

I don't understand. If those who use Evergreen don't want anything that's new then why not simply install, say, 12.1 and switch off any and all options which will update that system?

Evergreen is long-term support, Tumbleweed is for early adopters (aka bleeding edge), Factory is experimental. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (6.8°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - free DNS hosting, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin

7 Mar 7 Mar

03:40

On 07/03/13 00:53, Per Jessen wrote:

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Basil Chupin wrote:

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...
On 3/6/13 12:58 AM, "Basil Chupin" wrote:

People who want Evergreen *do not* want Tumbleweed. People who want Evergreen *do not* want *anything* that's new. So in circumstances where Evergreen is appropriate, switching to Tumbleweed instead is *NOT* appropriate. I don't understand. If those who use Evergreen don't want anything

On 07/03/13 00:02, Christofer Bell wrote: that's new then why not simply install, say, 12.1 and switch off any and all options which will update that system? Evergreen is long-term support, Tumbleweed is for early adopters (aka bleeding edge), Factory is experimental.

See my reply to dd. Tumbleweed is NOT "bleeding edge". Factory is "bleeding edge", but it is also "not quite fully tested - use at your own risk; if it breaks you get to keep the pieces". BC -- Using openSUSE 12.2 x86_64 KDE 4.10.00 & kernel 3.8.2-1 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel Corsair "Vengeance" RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX550Ti 1GB DDR5 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

06:43

Basil Chupin wrote:

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On 07/03/13 00:53, Per Jessen wrote:

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Basil Chupin wrote:

...
...
On 3/6/13 12:58 AM, "Basil Chupin" wrote:

People who want Evergreen *do not* want Tumbleweed. People who want Evergreen *do not* want *anything* that's new. So in circumstances where Evergreen is appropriate, switching to Tumbleweed instead is *NOT* appropriate. I don't understand. If those who use Evergreen don't want anything

On 07/03/13 00:02, Christofer Bell wrote: that's new then why not simply install, say, 12.1 and switch off any and all options which will update that system?

Evergreen is long-term support, Tumbleweed is for early adopters (aka bleeding edge), Factory is experimental.

See my reply to dd.

Tumbleweed is NOT "bleeding edge".

According to your post: "[tumbleweed is] for users that want the newest". If that is not the leading edge, I don't know what is.

...

Factory is "bleeding edge", but it is also "not quite fully tested - use at your own risk; if it breaks you get to keep the pieces".

Sounds experimental to me. I'll stick to my version :-) -- Per Jessen, Zürich (6.8°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - free DNS hosting, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Claudio ML

11:15

Il 07/03/2013 07:43, Per Jessen ha scritto:

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Basil Chupin wrote:

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On 07/03/13 00:53, Per Jessen wrote:

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Basil Chupin wrote:

...
...
On 3/6/13 12:58 AM, "Basil Chupin" wrote:

People who want Evergreen *do not* want Tumbleweed. People who want Evergreen *do not* want *anything* that's new. So in circumstances where Evergreen is appropriate, switching to Tumbleweed instead is *NOT* appropriate. I don't understand. If those who use Evergreen don't want anything

On 07/03/13 00:02, Christofer Bell wrote: that's new then why not simply install, say, 12.1 and switch off any and all options which will update that system? Evergreen is long-term support, Tumbleweed is for early adopters (aka bleeding edge), Factory is experimental. See my reply to dd.

Tumbleweed is NOT "bleeding edge". According to your post: "[tumbleweed is] for users that want the newest". If that is not the leading edge, I don't know what is.

...
Factory is "bleeding edge", but it is also "not quite fully tested - use at your own risk; if it breaks you get to keep the pieces". Sounds experimental to me. I'll stick to my version :-)

I hope only with the 12.3 a better integration of systemd, into the previous versions it's a real pain in the ass, and at least it don't work always so well. Now, if systemd is the only choice, i hope that is really _stable_ and _usable_..... Curious about the new release, but also a little scared..... Claudio. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Adam Tauno Williams

10 Mar 10 Mar

16:53

On Thu, 2013-03-07 at 07:43 +0100, Per Jessen wrote:

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Basil Chupin wrote:

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On 07/03/13 00:53, Per Jessen wrote:

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Basil Chupin wrote:

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...
On 3/6/13 12:58 AM, "Basil Chupin" wrote: People who want Evergreen *do not* want Tumbleweed. People who want Evergreen *do not* want *anything* that's new. So in circumstances where Evergreen is appropriate, switching to Tumbleweed instead is *NOT* appropriate. I don't understand. If those who use Evergreen don't want anything

On 07/03/13 00:02, Christofer Bell wrote: that's new then why not simply install, say, 12.1 and switch off any and all options which will update that system>> Evergreen is long-term support, Tumbleweed is for early adopters (aka bleeding edge), Factory is experimental. See my reply to dd. Tumbleweed is NOT "bleeding edge". According to your post: "[tumbleweed is] for users that want the newest". If that is not the leading edge, I don't know what is.

There is a significant difference between "bleeding edge" [untested!] and "leading edge".

...

...
Factory is "bleeding edge", but it is also "not quite fully tested - use at your own risk; if it breaks you get to keep the pieces". Sounds experimental to me. I'll stick to my version :-)

Factory is "bleeding edge", nobody said it wasn't. Anyway - the entire current-is-unstable meme is a bit nuts. I'm on openSUSE 12.2 + GNOME 3.6. It is *very* stable. I use if for 60+ hours a day; between two laptops, a netbook, and a serious workstation. I've used 11.4, 12.0, 12.1, etc... Honestly, 12.0 had some issues [at least of me on my hardwares - it is important to remember that all such reports are anecdotal, including mine], but due to one rather crunchy and rough upgrade it is irrational to paint 'current' as "unstable". -- Adam Tauno Williams -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

DenverD

6 Mar 6 Mar

18:48

On 03/06/2013 02:38 PM, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

I don't understand. If those who use Evergreen don't want anything that's new then why not simply install, say, 12.1 and switch off any and all options which will update that system? That is, no patches, no *new* versions of Firefox or Thunderbird or whatever. Just stick with the original installation and stay with it for 20 years or so - if this is what "Evergreeners" are all about.

is it so difficult for you to understand that my 11.4 Evergreen is both fully updated with the latest security patches, Firefox 19.0, Thunderbird 17.0, etc etc etc _and_ more stable and dependable than any of 12.2, Tumbleweed or the soon to be released 12.3 ?? it is not about not wanting "new" but rather all about dependable and predictable....no, (for example) KDE 4.99.99 will not roll in tomorrow during an update and require me to spend hours futzing with new problems.. fini dd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin

7 Mar 7 Mar

03:38

On 07/03/13 05:48, DenverD wrote:

...

On 03/06/2013 02:38 PM, Basil Chupin wrote:

...
I don't understand. If those who use Evergreen don't want anything that's new then why not simply install, say, 12.1 and switch off any and all options which will update that system? That is, no patches, no *new* versions of Firefox or Thunderbird or whatever. Just stick with the original installation and stay with it for 20 years or so - if this is what "Evergreeners" are all about.

is it so difficult for you to understand that my 11.4 Evergreen is both fully updated with the latest security patches, Firefox 19.0, Thunderbird 17.0, etc etc etc _and_ more stable and dependable than any of 12.2, Tumbleweed or the soon to be released 12.3 ??

it is not about not wanting "new" but rather all about dependable and predictable....no, (for example) KDE 4.99.99 will not roll in tomorrow during an update and require me to spend hours futzing with new problems..

fini

dd

And cannot YOU understand plain English in which the Tumbelweed wiki is written?! I requote again what the wiki states: quote The Tumbleweed project provides a rolling updates version of openSUSE containing the latest stable versions of all software instead of relying on rigid periodic release cycles. The project does this for users that want the newest, but stable software. unquote Do you understand the words "stable" and "newest , but stable"? Tell me how different this is to what you wrote above re stability and having latest (security) patches, etc, etc.? BC -- Using openSUSE 12.2 x86_64 KDE 4.10.00 & kernel 3.8.2-1 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel Corsair "Vengeance" RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX550Ti 1GB DDR5 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Felix Miata

04:22

On 2013-03-07 14:38 (GMT+01100) Basil Chupin composed:

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quote

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The Tumbleweed project provides a rolling updates version of openSUSE containing the latest stable versions of all software instead of relying on rigid periodic release cycles. The project does this for users that want the newest, but stable software.

...

unquote

...

Do you understand the words "stable" and "newest , but stable"?

...

Tell me how different this is to what you wrote above re stability and having latest (security) patches, etc, etc.?

"Stable" (aka 11.4) means no Grub2 no systemd no Gnome3 no dracut no Plymouth optionally, no KDE4 panning in X still works (broken in 12.2, still broken in 12.3, Factory & upstream) It's quite arguably stretching the meaning of "stable" to include the above within its definition, at least, as implemented in 12.1, 12.2 or even 12.3. Systemd is not yet even in 12.3 a 100% drop-in replacement for SysV. Grub2 integration into YaST and docs remains incomplete in 12.3. Keeping 11.4 supported as long as a Debian release is routinely kept supported doesn't make it ancient. Newer isn't necessarily better. Some people really don't consider a mere two years as sufficient interval between system "upgrades". Large numbers continue to use WinXP, and it's over 11 years old. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Christofer Bell

04:25

On 3/6/13 9:38 PM, "Basil Chupin" wrote:

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On 07/03/13 05:48, DenverD wrote:

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On 03/06/2013 02:38 PM, Basil Chupin wrote:

...
I don't understand. If those who use Evergreen don't want anything that's new then why not simply install, say, 12.1 and switch off any and all options which will update that system? That is, no patches, no *new* versions of Firefox or Thunderbird or whatever. Just stick with the original installation and stay with it for 20 years or so - if this is what "Evergreeners" are all about.

is it so difficult for you to understand that my 11.4 Evergreen is both fully updated with the latest security patches, Firefox 19.0, Thunderbird 17.0, etc etc etc _and_ more stable and dependable than any of 12.2, Tumbleweed or the soon to be released 12.3 ??

it is not about not wanting "new" but rather all about dependable and predictable....no, (for example) KDE 4.99.99 will not roll in tomorrow during an update and require me to spend hours futzing with new problems..

fini

dd

And cannot YOU understand plain English in which the Tumbelweed wiki is written?! I requote again what the wiki states:

quote

The Tumbleweed project provides a rolling updates version of openSUSE containing the latest stable versions of all software instead of relying on rigid periodic release cycles. The project does this for users that want the newest, but stable software.

unquote

Do you understand the words "stable" and "newest , but stable"?

I don't think *you* understand what "stable" means in this context. -- Chris -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

11:51

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 El 2013-03-06 a las 22:25 -0600, Christofer Bell escribió:

...

On 3/6/13 9:38 PM, "Basil Chupin" <> wrote:

...

...
unquote

Do you understand the words "stable" and "newest , but stable"?

I don't think *you* understand what "stable" means in this context.

No, he doesn't. - -- Cheers Carlos E. R. (from 11.4, with Evergreen, x86_64 "Celadon" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlE4f0wACgkQja8UbcUWM1w+0QD+PSde8DPZD+eZ+B4tQBjXKoeK Ny0uLjHTHJhvdOQMP0EBAI/4LD9Sv5SXtQjIXupbFkLdRzZ7BPHTDww7QMKA+BBF =CYL0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Basil Chupin

9 Mar 9 Mar

09:58

On 07/03/13 22:51, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256

El 2013-03-06 a las 22:25 -0600, Christofer Bell escribió:

...
On 3/6/13 9:38 PM, "Basil Chupin" <> wrote:

...
...
unquote

Do you understand the words "stable" and "newest , but stable"?

I don't think *you* understand what "stable" means in this context.

No, he doesn't.

I am going to end this thread - at least my involvement in it - right here and now. I have a very strong suspicion that whoever is arguing for this Evergreen version and against what Tumbleweed is all about is doing so without the slightest idea of having actually installed and used Tumbleweed. The whole argument so far has been about words and the meaning of words - but nothing based on actual experience. People flapping their ears simply on the basis of what they believe, on how they interpret words. I have Tumbleweed installed. Does who are arguing against TW: do you have TW installed? Per - do you have TW installed? I don't have Evergreen installed. I have no need to do so because I had openSUSE 11.4 installed *2* years ago. And I certainly don't want to go back and use something which is 2 years old this month. Now, when it comes to Tumbleweed, which as I said, I do have installed and have tried it, let me say 2 things: 1. It is NOT in any way "bleeding edge" - my installation of 12.2 is more "bleeding edge" than Tumbleweed; and 2. I am not impressed with Tumbleweed. Far from having the "latest" it does not. KDE is not the latest; the kernel I have in my 12.2 is newer than what is in TW; and at least one program does not work. So, the bottom line here is that, with the greatest respect to GregKH who maintains TW, I prefer to go with my 12.2 or now the about-to-be-unveiled 12.3. BC -- Using openSUSE 12.3 x86_64 KDE 4.10.1 & kernel 3.8.2-1 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel Corsair "Vengeance" RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX550Ti 1GB DDR5 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Ruediger Meier

10:38

On Saturday 09 March 2013, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

On 07/03/13 22:51, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256

El 2013-03-06 a las 22:25 -0600, Christofer Bell escribió:

...
On 3/6/13 9:38 PM, "Basil Chupin" <> wrote:

...
unquote

Do you understand the words "stable" and "newest , but stable"?

I don't think *you* understand what "stable" means in this context.

No, he doesn't.

I am going to end this thread - at least my involvement in it - right here and now.

I have a very strong suspicion that whoever is arguing for this Evergreen version and against what Tumbleweed is all about is doing so without the slightest idea of having actually installed and used Tumbleweed.

...

The whole argument so far has been about words and the meaning of words - but nothing based on actual experience.

People flapping their ears simply on the basis of what they believe, on how they interpret words.

I have Tumbleweed installed.

Does who are arguing against TW: do you have TW installed? Per - do you have TW installed?

I don't have Evergreen installed. I have no need to do so because I had openSUSE 11.4 installed *2* years ago.

And I certainly don't want to go back and use something which is 2 years old this month.

It makes no sense to go back after upgrading. Evergreen is about NOT upgrading at all.

...

Now, when it comes to Tumbleweed, which as I said, I do have installed and have tried it, let me say 2 things:

1. It is NOT in any way "bleeding edge" - my installation of 12.2 is more "bleeding edge" than Tumbleweed; and

Don't you understand that any upgrade, for example from 12.2 to 12.3 will bring you some small or bigger issues which you have to fix after doing the update? You even posted something about a 12.3 regression in the other thread. To avoid such issues you could simply NOT upgrade. "Bleeding edge" in this context means the latest openSUSE release. Specially since 12.1 we got so many huge changes that many people have really no motivations to risk upgrading good old 11.4. After end of life they have to switch to Evergreen if they still want to get important security and bug fixes. If you suggest them to use Tumbleweed instead of Evergreen then you haven't uderstood the whole thing because Tumbleweed will bring you any existing upgrade issue to your machine. That's exactly what those Evergreen people want to avoid. Tumbleweed is the exact opposite of Evergreen. The fact that it's more stable than Factory doesn't change the fact that it's much more unstable than sticking to any older particular release where you have already fixed all issues which you got after installing at the time some years ago. cu, Rudi -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

12:25

Basil Chupin wrote:

...

I have Tumbleweed installed.

Does who are arguing against TW: do you have TW installed? Per - do you have TW installed?

I don't have it installed nor do I argue for or against it. TW satisfies a need.

...

I don't have Evergreen installed. I have no need to do so because I had openSUSE 11.4 installed *2* years ago.

Support for openSUSE 11.4 ended 5.11.2012. Evergreen however will continue to support openSUSE 11.4 until July 2014. If you would like to keep your 11.4 installation current, switch your repos to point to Evergreen: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Evergreen#How_to_activate -- Per Jessen, Zürich (12.1°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - free DNS hosting, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Hans Witvliet

16:31

-----Original Message----- From: Per Jessen To: opensuse@opensuse.org Subject: Re: [opensuse] 10 days out - 12.3 recommendations Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2013 13:25:03 +0100 Basil Chupin wrote:

...

I have Tumbleweed installed.

Does who are arguing against TW: do you have TW installed? Per - do you have TW installed?

I don't have it installed nor do I argue for or against it. TW satisfies a need.

...

I don't have Evergreen installed. I have no need to do so because I had openSUSE 11.4 installed *2* years ago.

Support for openSUSE 11.4 ended 5.11.2012. Evergreen however will continue to support openSUSE 11.4 until July 2014. If you would like to keep your 11.4 installation current, switch your repos to point to Evergreen: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Evergreen#How_to_activate -----Original Message----- Or. if you have multiple systems that needs updating, rsync your own copy from: ftp5.gwdg.de::pub/opensuse/repositories/openSUSE:/Evergreen \:/11.4/standard/ And do the update against your local nfs/http server. hw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

10 Mar 10 Mar

03:21

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 El 2013-03-09 a las 20:58 +1100, Basil Chupin escribió:

...

I have a very strong suspicion that whoever is arguing for this Evergreen version and against what Tumbleweed is all about is doing so without the slightest idea of having actually installed and used Tumbleweed.

I'm not, indeed we are not, arguing against Tumbleweed. You are not understanding. Tumbleweed fills a need. Evergreen fills a different need. Both are different approaches, and both are valid. Some people want one type of maintenance and development, other people prefer the other type. So what? This is Linux, we have choices. - -- Cheers Carlos E. R. (from 11.4, with Evergreen, x86_64 "Celadon" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlE7/DUACgkQja8UbcUWM1yotgD/YIq9gQfahHYGBwycd4cziJov 1Ym5yR+paJoUGIF6TnEA/1hixYfmnk4qoX712DkT2SF6uXEDHFkTqe7EM/bp/YTo =Keji -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Basil Chupin

03:56

On 10/03/13 14:21, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256

El 2013-03-09 a las 20:58 +1100, Basil Chupin escribió:

...
I have a very strong suspicion that whoever is arguing for this Evergreen version and against what Tumbleweed is all about is doing so without the slightest idea of having actually installed and used Tumbleweed.

I'm not, indeed we are not, arguing against Tumbleweed.

You are not understanding.

Tumbleweed fills a need.

Evergreen fills a different need.

Both are different approaches, and both are valid. Some people want one type of maintenance and development, other people prefer the other type. So what? This is Linux, we have choices.

I cannot disagree with that. But all choices have a cost - which is what I was trying to point out: having someone spend time in porting programs to an out-of-date version instead of spending that valuable time in doing something for the latest version(s). BC -- Using openSUSE 12.3 x86_64 KDE 4.10.1 & kernel 3.8.2-1 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel Corsair "Vengeance" RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX550Ti 1GB DDR5 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

DenverD

06:58

On 03/10/2013 04:56 AM, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

On 10/03/13 14:21, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256

El 2013-03-09 a las 20:58 +1100, Basil Chupin escribió:

...
I have a very strong suspicion that whoever is arguing for this Evergreen version and against what Tumbleweed is all about is doing so without the slightest idea of having actually installed and used Tumbleweed.

I'm not, indeed we are not, arguing against Tumbleweed.

You are not understanding.

Tumbleweed fills a need.

Evergreen fills a different need.

Both are different approaches, and both are valid. Some people want one type of maintenance and development, other people prefer the other type. So what? This is Linux, we have choices.

I cannot disagree with that.

But all choices have a cost - which is what I was trying to point out: having someone spend time in porting programs to an out-of-date version instead of spending that valuable time in doing something for the latest version(s).

no one here is "arguing for this Evergreen version and against what Tumbleweed is all about", but there _is_ one here who (for whatever misguided reason) has decided it is imperative to win in the battle between Evergreen and Tumbleweed (as if there were a battle to fight!).. some forget that "the community" is more than just those who wish to be out on the leading edge and in the midst of "the action" aimed at moving into the future.. there is more...the community _also_ contains folks _using_ openSUSE in businesses, offices, schools, libraries, factories and etc who want to turn on the lights everyday and have their operating system *work* dependably, reliably, productively, and predictably...with no futz.. that part of the community is as important to openSUSE as is those who run factory all the time...or run Tumbleweed, or 12.2.. _and_ work on both 11.4 and 11.2 Evergreens is _not_ simply work on out-of-date software with no interest for anyone...instead it is one more chance to test/observe and receive feedback from a population on a system which is quite similar in maturity to the enterprise products of our main sponsor.. there is room for both ends of the community, and everything in between--so, stop shooting! dd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

6 Mar 6 Mar

20:18

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 El 2013-03-07 a las 00:38 +1100, Basil Chupin escribió:

...

I don't understand. If those who use Evergreen don't want anything that's new then why not simply install, say, 12.1 and switch off any and all options which will update that system? That is, no patches, no *new* versions of Firefox or Thunderbird or whatever. Just stick with the original installation and stay with it for 20 years or so - if this is what "Evergreeners" are all about.

We want the security patches and maintenance. We do not want new versions of things, no new features, no unneeded changes. Stability, not bleeding edge. Conservative, not revolution. A long term support version, without paying for a expensive commercial version like SLES. - -- Cheers Carlos E. R. (from 11.4, with Evergreen, x86_64 "Celadon" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlE3pIYACgkQja8UbcUWM1yf/QD6AtvJjO22FEqGFccTWDnTZ5Fu b/OGrm0q8dEfIRsFKNYA/j+eBHgSlI8RX1jWgB0L/2tGyGOpMOgKGkA/5UFlZ1J2 =zaiK -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Basil Chupin

7 Mar 7 Mar

03:48

On 07/03/13 07:18, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256

El 2013-03-07 a las 00:38 +1100, Basil Chupin escribió:

...
I don't understand. If those who use Evergreen don't want anything that's new then why not simply install, say, 12.1 and switch off any and all options which will update that system? That is, no patches, no *new* versions of Firefox or Thunderbird or whatever. Just stick with the original installation and stay with it for 20 years or so - if this is what "Evergreeners" are all about.

We want the security patches and maintenance. We do not want new versions of things, no new features, no unneeded changes. Stability, not bleeding edge. Conservative, not revolution. A long term support version, without paying for a expensive commercial version like SLES.

Which is what I thought dd is trying to say: that you want to live in the past but want to have someone spend their time and effort maintaining something which is ancient and outdated. I mean if you want to use old stuff then why not, as I said earlier, just install version, say, 11.4 and stay with that for 20 years? Why require someone to spend their time/effort providing you with updates for your old system AS WELL as providing the exact same for the most uptodate versions? Seems like a heck of waste of human resources which can be used more productively elsewhere. But, then, that's my thinking. BC -- Using openSUSE 12.2 x86_64 KDE 4.10.00 & kernel 3.8.2-1 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel Corsair "Vengeance" RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX550Ti 1GB DDR5 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Christofer Bell

04:26

On 3/6/13 9:48 PM, "Basil Chupin" wrote:

...

On 07/03/13 07:18, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256

El 2013-03-07 a las 00:38 +1100, Basil Chupin escribió:

...
I don't understand. If those who use Evergreen don't want anything that's new then why not simply install, say, 12.1 and switch off any and all options which will update that system? That is, no patches, no *new* versions of Firefox or Thunderbird or whatever. Just stick with the original installation and stay with it for 20 years or so - if this is what "Evergreeners" are all about.

We want the security patches and maintenance. We do not want new versions of things, no new features, no unneeded changes. Stability, not bleeding edge. Conservative, not revolution. A long term support version, without paying for a expensive commercial version like SLES.

Which is what I thought dd is trying to say: that you want to live in the past but want to have someone spend their time and effort maintaining something which is ancient and outdated. I mean if you want to use old stuff then why not, as I said earlier, just install version, say, 11.4 and stay with that for 20 years? Why require someone to spend their time/effort providing you with updates for your old system AS WELL as providing the exact same for the most uptodate versions? Seems like a heck of waste of human resources which can be used more productively elsewhere. But, then, that's my thinking.

You're wrong. -- Chris -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

11:48

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 El 2013-03-06 a las 22:26 -0600, Christofer Bell escribió:

...

On 3/6/13 9:48 PM, "Basil Chupin" <> wrote:

...
On 07/03/13 07:18, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

...
...
We want the security patches and maintenance. We do not want new versions of things, no new features, no unneeded changes. Stability, not bleeding edge. Conservative, not revolution. A long term support version, without paying for a expensive commercial version like SLES.

Which is what I thought dd is trying to say: that you want to live in the past but want to have someone spend their time and effort maintaining something which is ancient and outdated. I mean if you want to use old stuff then why not, as I said earlier, just install version, say, 11.4 and stay with that for 20 years? Why require someone to spend their time/effort providing you with updates for your old system AS WELL as providing the exact same for the most uptodate versions? Seems like a heck of waste of human resources which can be used more productively elsewhere. But, then, that's my thinking.

You're wrong.

Absolutely. Nobody is talking of 20 years, for instance. One or two years at most. It is similar to what SLES does, for instance, but with lower spectations/effort. - -- Cheers Carlos E. R. (from 11.4, with Evergreen, x86_64 "Celadon" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlE4fn0ACgkQja8UbcUWM1xVcAD/YNAhkrSNy7567YgwkiGVWn6n SMep92EUkk5tXvCWmsYBAIdevWmOpbQUfmi5phEoh/h5geLo7aduz08arLIU7ls9 =ukI8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Basil Chupin

9 Mar 9 Mar

10:34

On 07/03/13 22:48, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256

El 2013-03-06 a las 22:26 -0600, Christofer Bell escribió:

...
On 3/6/13 9:48 PM, "Basil Chupin" <> wrote:

...
On 07/03/13 07:18, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
...
...
We want the security patches and maintenance. We do not want new versions of things, no new features, no unneeded changes. Stability, not bleeding edge. Conservative, not revolution. A long term support version, without paying for a expensive commercial version like SLES.

Which is what I thought dd is trying to say: that you want to live in the past but want to have someone spend their time and effort maintaining something which is ancient and outdated. I mean if you want to use old stuff then why not, as I said earlier, just install version, say, 11.4 and stay with that for 20 years? Why require someone to spend their time/effort providing you with updates for your old system AS WELL as providing the exact same for the most uptodate versions? Seems like a heck of waste of human resources which can be used more productively elsewhere. But, then, that's my thinking.

You're wrong.

Absolutely.

Nobody is talking of 20 years, for instance. One or two years at most. It is similar to what SLES does, for instance, but with lower spectations/effort.

(Jesus, you are making it tuff :-( . In an earlier message I posted a few minutes ago I said I am ending my involvement in this thread - but what you wrote cannot go unpunished! :-) ) *I* am talking about 20 years. I see no difference in installing a version of oS and using it for 20 years because the statement was made that the people using Evergreen had no interest in the latest; they wanted stability. Then if you want STABILITY install a version and stick with it for 20 years! Why do you want someone to spend time and effort to keep your installation going for 2 or 3 years with maintenance updates so that you can call it an Evergreen?! Install a version and keep running it without any updates or upgrades, other than what comes down thru "Online Updates" or thru "zypper refresh/up", and free any poor overworked person to do other things with his or her time instead of spending the time and effort on something called Evergreen? I have openSUSE 12.2 installed and it is updated when some new patches etc are available. But it is not called Evergreen. Yet it is kept 'up-to-date'[*]. And there is NOTHING stopping me from using this 12.2 for the next 20 years even though it is no longer supported. It will still work correctly. I have a copy of XP installed which I installed way back in 2000. Still works perfectly - and I haven't had any updates to it (except for SP2). No problemos. So, if I can do this with XP why do "you" Evergreeners need to have someone spend time and effort to keep 11.4 up-to-date? But wait....you don't want anything new, you just want to stay with what you had 2 years ago when you first installed 11.4. Yes? No? Do you really know what you Evergreeners really want? :-) [*] I tell a teeny-weeny porky here: I install the latest stable kernel, the latest LibreOffice from LO site, and use Firefox and Thunderbird 21.0a1, and a couple of other things which are not available as part of the usual 'online updates'. Which is why I say that my 12.2 is more "bleeding edge". BC -- Using openSUSE 12.3 x86_64 KDE 4.10.1 & kernel 3.8.2-1 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel Corsair "Vengeance" RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX550Ti 1GB DDR5 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

12:07

Basil Chupin wrote:

...

Install a version and keep running it without any updates or upgrades, other than what comes down thru "Online Updates" or thru "zypper refresh/up",

Basil, that is what Evergreen does when openSUSE stops.

...

I have openSUSE 12.2 installed and it is updated when some new patches etc are available. But it is not called Evergreen. Yet it is kept 'up-to-date'[*].

Only until official/pre-Evergreen support expires. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (12.2°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - free DNS hosting, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

10 Mar 10 Mar

03:31

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 El 2013-03-09 a las 21:34 +1100, Basil Chupin escribió:

...

On 07/03/13 22:48, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

...
Nobody is talking of 20 years, for instance. One or two years at most. It is similar to what SLES does, for instance, but with lower spectations/effort.

(Jesus, you are making it tuff :-( . In an earlier message I posted a few minutes ago I said I am ending my involvement in this thread - but what you wrote cannot go unpunished! :-) )

*I* am talking about 20 years.

I see no difference in installing a version of oS and using it for 20 years because the statement was made that the people using Evergreen had no interest in the latest; they wanted stability.

Then if you want STABILITY install a version and stick with it for 20 years!

What for? Who is going to keep doing the needed security updates for 20 years? That is impossible!

...

Why do you want someone to spend time and effort to keep your installation going for 2 or 3 years with maintenance updates so that you can call it an Evergreen?!

Well, many people want it, and some maintainers are actually doing that job, because enough people do want that maintenance done. And we are grateful that they do. You don't, fine! Don't use it. - -- Cheers Carlos E. R. (from 11.4, with Evergreen, x86_64 "Celadon" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlE7/n0ACgkQja8UbcUWM1yvEAD+KqlA6oubwy+OzNYjUr0XRRx/ q1i8p1JajDd/2iSrJJ4A/ie6TFZksNM+b8JfTHxTcKJZicYw6SCTTR7wP3AG4UsW =X509 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Basil Chupin

04:05

On 10/03/13 14:31, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256

El 2013-03-09 a las 21:34 +1100, Basil Chupin escribió:

...
On 07/03/13 22:48, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
...
Nobody is talking of 20 years, for instance. One or two years at most. It is similar to what SLES does, for instance, but with lower spectations/effort.

(Jesus, you are making it tuff :-( . In an earlier message I posted a few minutes ago I said I am ending my involvement in this thread - but what you wrote cannot go unpunished! :-) )

*I* am talking about 20 years.

I see no difference in installing a version of oS and using it for 20 years because the statement was made that the people using Evergreen had no interest in the latest; they wanted stability.

Then if you want STABILITY install a version and stick with it for 20 years!

What for?

Who is going to keep doing the needed security updates for 20 years? That is impossible!

This is NOT what I am, or was, saying. What I said is to install the version and then keep it for 20 years, and have it updated via normal channels before it hits it's EOL - *after* which it cannot get any more stable than it is at that point. Then just using it for the next 20 years - it's stable, you don't want any new upgrades and so keep going with that version. But you want to have someone spend their time in providing "you" with updates for another few years after the version's EOL yet claiming that you don't to have any updates because you want stability.

...

Why do you want someone to spend time and effort to keep your installation going for 2 or 3 years with maintenance updates so that you can call it an Evergreen?!

Well, many people want it, and some maintainers are actually doing that job, because enough people do want that maintenance done. And we are grateful that they do.

You don't, fine!

I "don't" what? I am not grateful that the maintainers do the maintaining? Or what?

...

Don't use it.

I won't :-) . BC -- Using openSUSE 12.3 x86_64 KDE 4.10.1 & kernel 3.8.2-1 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel Corsair "Vengeance" RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX550Ti 1GB DDR5 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Patrick Shanahan

12:09

* Basil Chupin [03-09-13 23:06]: [...]

...

What I said is to install the version and then keep it for 20 years, and have it updated via normal channels before it hits it's EOL - *after* which it cannot get any more stable than it is at that point. Then just using it for the next 20 years - it's stable, you don't want any new upgrades and so keep going with that version.

But you want to have someone spend their time in providing "you" with updates for another few years after the version's EOL yet claiming that you don't to have any updates because you want stability.

Perhaps you are allowing tooo much weight to "updates" as the majority of support provided to Evergreen is "security" updates *only*. Evergreen is a solid, dependable, "secure" system. You do realize that security problems are found in older systems? They do not become secure and remain that way. It is code written by human beings, *always* subject to errors. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

20:39

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 El 2013-03-10 a las 15:05 +1100, Basil Chupin escribió:

...

But you want to have someone spend their time in providing "you" with updates for another few years after the version's EOL yet claiming that you don't to have any updates because you want stability.

It is not 'me'. It is many people. And there are already some volunteers doing those updates. I do not have to ask for them, they are already being done since some time (years). - -- Cheers Carlos E. R. (from 11.4, with Evergreen, x86_64 "Celadon" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlE873AACgkQja8UbcUWM1xZwAD+NeqgmSUxtVrFEX+g0TCsAIlS /fWv3ZNQVSn/60A0XqcA/1rM30YiyQoiU3SJg531BYF5bJwopAMCVK2NaIhm0wta =QpwP -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Carlos E. R.

5 Mar 5 Mar

17:27

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 El 2013-03-05 a las 20:52 +1100, Basil Chupin escribió:

...

I would have thought that switching to Tumbleweed was the more appropriate thing to do.

Tumbleweed is similar to factory, you are continuously updating everything. Evergreen is the opposite approach, it is an LTS. Only what is absolutely needed to update is updated. - -- Cheers Carlos E. R. (from 11.4, with Evergreen, x86_64 "Celadon" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlE2Kv0ACgkQja8UbcUWM1xYbwEAg14D+u+yFDHRVht9QrY8zgoH 0E8cAben5ViAB2wEPe8A+wWO7xz+M2qBpLjzDNwqAqogViOlhPRrmlAuaTmCdNiD =wp26 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Basil Chupin

6 Mar 6 Mar

06:59

On 06/03/13 04:27, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256

El 2013-03-05 a las 20:52 +1100, Basil Chupin escribió:

...
I would have thought that switching to Tumbleweed was the more appropriate thing to do.

Tumbleweed is similar to factory, you are continuously updating everything.

Evergreen is the opposite approach, it is an LTS. Only what is absolutely needed to update is updated.

See my reply to Denver. BC -- Using openSUSE 12.3 x86_64 KDE 4.10.00 & kernel 3.8.2-1 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel Corsair "Vengeance" RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX550Ti 1GB DDR5 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

kanenas＠hawaii.rr.com

5 Mar 5 Mar

08:49

On Sunday 03 March 2013 01:58:48 pm John Andersen wrote:

...

I'm running 12.3rc2 is a virtual machine, but am planning to redo my main laptop in 12.3 when its final. (Its currently hanging back at 11.4 waiting for 12.3).

So the same question that comes up every time I look at re-basing my machine: Nuke and fresh install or Upgrade in place?

With that many releases between refreshes my gut reaction is to nuke it and start over, but I just wanted to bounce it off you guys in case the in-place upgrade process has improved over time.

The machine is my primary traveler and absolute must host VmWare.

Nothing spectacular about this Dell 9400 laptop, it has an aging Radeon and a big enough disk. Its been spectacularly reliable over the years.

-- _____________________________________ ---This space for rent---

If /home is in a separate partition and there is room for more than one "/" partitions in your hard drive(s), I would recommend that you test everything in a *spare* partition that is used for / and has no separate home partition. a 12-15gb partition would probably be all you need, unless you have some huge apps. You can install your current os there, add your critical apps and test the update there, and, BEFORE you try it in the working /home partition, go to your /home and backup all the hidden directories of all the users you have. If you do that, it is just a small chore to go back to the old system if trouble arises. I used that approach in a 2tb drive and now it has suse 11.1, 11.4,12.1 and 12.3 in it, all doing well. btw, 12.3 seems to be just fine. it is running well for me in both kde3 and kde4, but it will be a while before i abandon my true workhorse 11.4/kde3, my most complete system so far... good luck, d. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

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participants (14)

Adam Tauno Williams
Basil Chupin
Carlos E. R.
Christofer Bell
Claudio ML
DenverD
Felix Miata
Hans Witvliet
Istvan Gabor
John Andersen
kanenas＠hawaii.rr.com
Patrick Shanahan
Per Jessen
Ruediger Meier