Here is why: I tend to plan things. I am also quite an economist. I was NEVER intending to buy 7.0. Reason is 'I was planning on buying 7.1' when it most likely has kernel 2.4 in it. Now SuSE is making me upset a bit and I am close to not buying 7.1 I am making right now decisions for far in the future due to treatment I receive now. So if SuSE would get their release schedule a bit tighter this all would be no problem: - make any release announcements when they actually deliver a product and not 6 weeks ahead of time - stick to their release dates and don't push them back suddenly (this rolls back to the previous comment, don't announce something you not ready to deliver) - release the US version within two weeks of the German one (or release the ftp immediately so people around the world don't have to fucking wait for SuSE to comply with encryption export laws in the US. I mean how do all the Aussies feel that they have to wait for the US release even though it is not them who got the stupid encryption export laws) - release the ftp version a week after that And you know all of this is true because others on the list already said: I won't upgrade to 7.0 because it doesn't have kernel 2.4 in it. Just because there is some people who skip out on the buying of a release doesn't mean they should be punished and not be able to ftp install it. As long as you have a customer you want to keep him. That is the rule of business and there is anal people like me who like to skip on a release and wait for the next. By SuSE not putting up the ftp it is making those people upset. Most SuSE customers most likely have a less worthy connection speed and always buy the package. I am one of the people who got all his machines on a fast connection and I like to take advantage of it. The way SuSE is releasing things though I cannot do so in the timely manner I like to. As far as it concerns me SuSE has been jeopardizing 70 dollars out of my pocket for release 7.1 since August 25, 2000(German delayed release date). Simple as that. mk
From: "Victor R. Cardona" <vcardona@home.com> To: <suse-linux-e@suse.com> Subject: Re: [SLE] supply and demand Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 00:32:52 -0500
SuSE has always delayed putting their distributions up for a couple/few weeks. Why shouldn't they be given the opportunity to make a little money first? I am sorry if the following sounds rude. I do not mean it to as such, but why should they service you if you are not paying for their latest product? Let's be honest, they should support you for the version that you buy, and they do that very well. Why should they go out of their way to accommodate you if you are not a paying customer though?
Victor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Purple Shirt" <purpleshirt@hotmail.com> To: <suse-linux-e@suse.com> Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2000 10:26 PM Subject: [SLE] supply and demand
Ok,
I mentioned before that some people are waiting anxiously for the ftp to go up if it will ever happen.
Now SuSE seems to totally not be interested in this due to 'god knows what reasons'. I mean it is their choice. I still think though the option of an ftp install is part of their service and they should not make us wait 3 months for the ftp just so they sell 3 more copies of their product.
I am close to deciding not to buy SuSE anymore simply due to the fact that they refuse to put it up on ftp. One of the largest Linux advantages is that you can get your code in multiple ways; NFS, ftp, CD, DVD.
I guess we learned from the Napster ordeal that people have a demand for products and service and if the companies don't provide the products we will provide them ourselves.
I wonder if anybody out there like myself got an unthrottled 100 Mbit cable modem hooked up right into the university's backbone and thinks about putting the CDs up for ftp as SuSE seems to have goo in their ears.
If SuSE continues to delay the release of a product people want, then I would not be surprised if in the future we got unoffical SuSE CD ftp mirrors popping up all over the net. Maybe they already exist and I am not aware of it. Please send me the link then =)
mk
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On Sun, Sep 10, 2000 at 11:47:54AM +0000, Purple Shirt wrote:
Here is why:
I tend to plan things. I am also quite an economist. I was NEVER intending to buy 7.0. Reason is 'I was planning on buying 7.1' when it most likely has kernel 2.4 in it.
Not quite the business man though.
Now SuSE is making me upset a bit and I am close to not buying 7.1 I am making right now decisions for far in the future due to treatment I receive now. So if SuSE would get their release schedule a bit tighter this all would be no problem:
- make any release announcements when they actually deliver a product and not 6 weeks ahead of time - stick to their release dates and don't push them back suddenly (this rolls back to the previous comment, don't announce something you not ready to deliver)
How many software companies have you dealt with in the past? All software companies announce their new products ahead of time. Hell! Microsoft was touting Windows 2000 for years before it was ready. Release dates slip. That too is an unfortunate fact of life in the software industry.
- release the US version within two weeks of the German one (or release the ftp immediately so people around the world don't have to fucking wait for SuSE to comply with encryption export laws in the US. I mean how do all the Aussies feel that they have to wait for the US release even though it is not them who got the stupid encryption export laws) - release the ftp version a week after that
Considering that they probably do most of their development and documentation in German, and then translate it into different languages for different markets, a two or three week delay in getting the US version is not bad. As far as the ftp release...you are not paying for that release. You have no right to bitch about it. I don't know why you feel you should be entitled to a free upgrade whenever you want.
And you know all of this is true because others on the list already said: I won't upgrade to 7.0 because it doesn't have kernel 2.4 in it. Just because there is some people who skip out on the buying of a release doesn't mean they should be punished and not be able to ftp install it. As long as you have a customer you want to keep him. That is the rule of business and there is anal people like me who like to skip on a release and wait for the next. By SuSE not putting up the ftp it is making those people upset.
I am one of those people too. I don't plan on buying 7.0. When it makes its way onto the ftp site, then I will be happy, and might even download a few rpms that I want to update. However, I am not upset by the delay, and I think that most reasonable people won't be either.
Most SuSE customers most likely have a less worthy connection speed and always buy the package. I am one of the people who got all his machines on a fast connection and I like to take advantage of it. The way SuSE is releasing things though I cannot do so in the timely manner I like to.
See my reply above.
As far as it concerns me SuSE has been jeopardizing 70 dollars out of my pocket for release 7.1 since August 25, 2000(German delayed release date). Simple as that.
Don't forget the upgrade version. Unless you really like the paper docs. Victor -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq
Hello, I applaud you for being frugal with your dollar. In this day and age things add up quickly and most people can't just sling money around. It's good to buy what you need instead of following hype. If you are angry that 7.0 doesn't have the 2.4 kernel..well, no one can due much about that because it was promised to be out and well..it's not. That would be a Linus thing and he is the only one to be angry at for this. SuSE started a development cycle with it in mind that it would be out. SuSE can not just halt production on a product because one of the piece they wished to include was not available. You will be able to use the 2.4 kernel in 7.0 because SuSE will give you the tools to do so. What sort of bad treatment are you talking about? SuSE has had the same method of release as long as I have been using the software (5.0) and that is just the way it is. SuSE schedule is very tight, but things such as U.S. customs being a pain in the arse is something that NO one can do anything about, they held up "release schedules ". You can not blame SuSE for these types of problems. When your product sits and sits because of Government redtape and other such crap..them is just the brakes. SuSE very carefully thinks out the release schedule and makes sure all the i's are dotted and all the T's are crossed, but sometimes "shit happens". The encryption laws have NOTHING to do with why it's released in Europe before it's released in the U.S. Do you think leaving one directory off the CD's could cause these delays? Come on I think you are smarter then that. Well, I would say that SuSE is a business. You claim to be a businessman and to be good with your money. Do you have any idea how much effort and money goes into putting together all of the software, scripts and various other things that go into a distribution...? Well, I didn't. Now I do. It's a lot of time, effort and energy that most people don't want to undertake. To put together 1900 package w/ all the strings that bind it together cost quite a bit, so you really can't blame SuSE for thinking of paying customers a little before hand. All the software that's there can be put together into a distribution and loaded onto a machine by anyone who chooses to do so. I just think that's why people buy a box w/ CD's..because it's too much trouble to put this stuff together themselves. So you saying people are being punished because they don't want to buy the software to pay the developers for their time and they didn't want the software anyways..but in case they change their minds and want to upgrade anyways they should be able to. You say "As long as you have a customer you want to keep him" well, a customer is someone who buys goods and services...not someone who gets freebee's. I don't mean to offend you, but your choice of words is just not correct. Just because I got a copy of Solaris X86 for free at Linuxworld does not make me a Sun customer. It makes me someone who got the software for free. Should I be pissed because I can't get so some patches for it because they are on a passworded pay only site at Sun...umm...no. I shouldn't be and I am not. Yeah, you are exactly right that most of SuSE's customers won't have a highspeed connection which is exactly why they have always given multiple CD's with everything and the kitchen sink on them, so that people didn't have to spend valuable download $$ in order to try a piece of software. Well, I don't think that your seeing the big picture as far as the pricing is concerned. SuSE has not raised their prices in several years but yet has continued to grow and the cost of living has continued to increase, so after 5 or so years of not raising prices they decide to do so..you CAN'T possibly fault them for that. If you look at the value you get for Redhat's professional version ($170.00 U.S) and what you get with SuSE 7.0-Pro. You wouldn't be making these statements. If you run Oracle you would be paying a huge amount for Redhat's Oracle ready version..while SuSE 7.0 Pro gives you all of this for your "$70.00". SuSE gives 1000% more then many other distributions out there for pennies on the dollar. SuSE can't really stop you from being pissed off. I just think you are getting way bent out of shape when you don't completely realize what people go through to get a product like this to market. You also have to remember that from the time it's released to the time that the outlets release it for sale can vary sometimes as well. It's one big network that sometimes doesn't work as well as we would all like it to but I think that a damn good job is being done under the constraints of what their is too work with. I just want it to be said that these are my personal views on the situation..from observations from the outside and from within. Which is why it comes from this account. -- Cheers, Ben Rosenberg mailto:ben@whack.org ------------------------- Warning to the Human Race: Objects in mirror are dumber than they appear. -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq
On Sun, 10 Sep 2000, Ben Rosenberg wrote: br> Hello, br> Ben, you stated these facts very eloquently, I'd like to throw one more log on the fire though in regards to release dates. Look at Microsoft, when was the last time you saw an OS from MS being released on time, all that is is an OS with a few minor apps thrown in with it. With all their billions of dollars, they can't seem to hit the release dates either. Now look at SuSE who's not only packaging the OS but close to 2000 additional packages and all their nicely written scripts to make everything play so nice together. Someone may say that's not all that tough, but like Ben pointed out, try putting a distro together yourself and see how hard it is to set up, it's not that easy. It's definately an experience I would recommend to someone wanting to learn ALLOT more about linux, but is it necessary? No. That's why I use SuSE, they've done about everything I would have done myself (although I'm still waiting for the newer ghostscript stuff <hint, hint> or even the .spec file they used to compile it). br> I applaud you for being frugal with your dollar. In this day and age br> things add up quickly and most people can't just sling money around. br> It's good to buy what you need instead of following hype. br> br> If you are angry that 7.0 doesn't have the 2.4 kernel..well, no one br> can due much about that because it was promised to be out and br> well..it's not. That would be a Linus thing and he is the only one br> to be angry at for this. SuSE started a development cycle with it in br> mind that it would be out. SuSE can not just halt production on a br> product because one of the piece they wished to include was not br> available. You will be able to use the 2.4 kernel in 7.0 because br> SuSE will give you the tools to do so. br> br> What sort of bad treatment are you talking about? SuSE has had the br> same method of release as long as I have been using the software br> (5.0) and that is just the way it is. SuSE schedule is very tight, br> but things such as U.S. customs being a pain in the arse is br> something that NO one can do anything about, they held up "release br> schedules ". You can not blame SuSE for these types of problems. br> When your product sits and sits because of Government redtape and br> other such crap..them is just the brakes. SuSE very carefully br> thinks out the release schedule and makes sure all the i's are br> dotted and all the T's are crossed, but sometimes "shit happens". br> br> The encryption laws have NOTHING to do with why it's released in br> Europe before it's released in the U.S. Do you think leaving one br> directory off the CD's could cause these delays? Come on I think you br> are smarter then that. br> br> Well, I would say that SuSE is a business. You claim to be a br> businessman and to be good with your money. Do you have any idea how br> much effort and money goes into putting together all of the br> software, scripts and various other things that go into a br> distribution...? Well, I didn't. Now I do. It's a lot of time, br> effort and energy that most people don't want to undertake. To put br> together 1900 package w/ all the strings that bind it together cost br> quite a bit, so you really can't blame SuSE for thinking of paying br> customers a little before hand. All the software that's there can be br> put together into a distribution and loaded onto a machine by anyone br> who chooses to do so. br> I just think that's why people buy a box w/ CD's..because it's too much br> trouble to put this stuff together themselves. br> br> So you saying people are being punished because they don't want to br> buy the software to pay the developers for their time and they br> didn't want the software anyways..but in case they change their br> minds and want to upgrade anyways they should be able to. br> You say "As long as you have a customer you want to keep him" well, br> a customer is someone who buys goods and services...not someone who br> gets freebee's. I don't mean to offend you, but your choice of br> words is just not correct. Just because I got a copy of Solaris X86 br> for free at Linuxworld does not make me a Sun customer. It makes me br> someone who got the software for free. Should I be pissed because I br> can't get so some patches for it because they are on a passworded br> pay only site at Sun...umm...no. I shouldn't be and I am not. br> br> Yeah, you are exactly right that most of SuSE's customers won't have br> a highspeed connection which is exactly why they have always given br> multiple CD's with everything and the kitchen sink on them, so that br> people didn't have to spend valuable download $$ in order to try a br> piece of software. br> br> Well, I don't think that your seeing the big picture as far as the br> pricing is concerned. SuSE has not raised their prices in several br> years but yet has continued to grow and the cost of living has br> continued to increase, so after 5 or so years of not raising prices br> they decide to do so..you CAN'T possibly fault them for that. If you br> look at the value you get for Redhat's professional version ($170.00 br> U.S) and what you get with SuSE 7.0-Pro. You wouldn't be making br> these statements. If you run Oracle you would be paying a huge br> amount for Redhat's Oracle ready version..while SuSE 7.0 Pro gives br> you all of this for your "$70.00". SuSE gives 1000% more then many br> other distributions out there for pennies on the dollar. br> br> SuSE can't really stop you from being pissed off. I just think you br> are getting way bent out of shape when you don't completely realize br> what people go through to get a product like this to market. You br> also have to remember that from the time it's released to the time br> that the outlets release it for sale can vary sometimes as well. br> It's one big network that sometimes doesn't work as well as we would br> all like it to but I think that a damn good job is being done under br> the constraints of what their is too work with. br> br> I just want it to be said that these are my personal views on the br> situation..from observations from the outside and from within. br> Which is why it comes from this account. br> -- br> Cheers, br> br> Ben Rosenberg br> mailto:ben@whack.org br> ------------------------- br> Warning to the Human Race: br> Objects in mirror are dumber than they appear. br> br> -- S.Toms - tomas@primenet.com - www.primenet.com/~tomas SuSE Linux v6.4+ - Kernel 2.2.16 If someone had told me I would be Pope one day, I would have studied harder. -- Pope John Paul I -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq
I basically agree with what Ben said. I doubt there are many people who need to update their distribution so urgently that a few weeks will make a difference. If they do, there are other ways to get the job done. In any case, SuSE provides rpms for known security issues. One might as well complain that packages aren't rpm'd fast enough. But then one might as well compile them oneself. You want 2.4? Apparently it compiles cleanly and is quite stable now, though you will prob. have to patch it. Don't want to bother doing it/learning how? Here comes SuSE, they will do it for you... but it takes time and money. In any case, anyone who really wanted 7.0 instantly could have had SuSE FedEx the German edition to them. I don't mind the price hike, esp. if it's true the price has been flat for a few years. It's still great value for the money. I am a little circumspect about the split distribution, and also the slight creep towards a kind of insincere marketing lingo that I am detecting. One of the things I like about SuSE is its straightforwardness. So SuSE: please don't go further down a US-style marketing BS path. Continue making a great, well-documented distribution. Re: Personal Edition. I looked at the package list, and in some ways it makes sense, though I probably would have opted to include WP. (It's certainly better than Red HAt 6.2 "Deluxe" which is a gilded turd.) Also there is almost no security stuff, yet lots of network daemons are included. Is the default install a secure configuration? I can see lots of gee-whiz people installing everything and then being rather vulnerable. Also, they will miss the fun/learning of exploring all the stuff on the full distribution. Anyhow it's not worth getting upset about. Corvin -- Corvin Russell <corvinr@sympatico.ca> -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq
On Sun, 10 Sep 2000, Ben Rosenberg wrote:
Hello,
available. You will be able to use the 2.4 kernel in 7.0 because SuSE will give you the tools to do so.
Good news.. thank you!! :)
I just think that's why people buy a box w/ CD's..because it's too much trouble to put this stuff together themselves.
You got that right!! Excellent!! And I buy SuSE because they put it together properly.
Yeah, you are exactly right that most of SuSE's customers won't have a highspeed connection which is exactly why they have always given multiple CD's with everything and the kitchen sink on them, so that people didn't have to spend valuable download $$ in order to try a piece of software.
Main reason I buy it.
Well, I don't think that your seeing the big picture as far as the pricing is concerned. SuSE has not raised their prices in several years but yet has continued to grow and the cost of living has continued to increase, so after 5 or so years of not raising prices they decide to do so..you CAN'T possibly fault them for that. If you look at the value you get for Redhat's professional version ($170.00 U.S) and what you get with SuSE 7.0-Pro. You wouldn't be making these statements. If you run Oracle you would be paying a huge amount for Redhat's Oracle ready version..while SuSE 7.0 Pro gives you all of this for your "$70.00". SuSE gives 1000% more then many other distributions out there for pennies on the dollar.
Very true :)
I just want it to be said that these are my personal views on the situation..from observations from the outside and from within. Which is why it comes from this account. -- Cheers,
Ben Rosenberg mailto:ben@whack.org -------------------------
I agree 100% with your views. I also buy and run Slackware (have been since 1997), but SuSE is the benchmark as the best, most secure, and most complete Linux O/S. We would be on some other mailing list if we thought differently. Thanks and best regards, S.T.Ryder -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq
participants (6)
-
ben＠whack.org -
corvinr＠sympatico.ca -
purpleshirt＠hotmail.com -
stryder＠facestech.com -
tomas＠primenet.com -
vcardona＠home.com