[opensuse] Re: [opensuse-factory] Problem with openSUSE 11.3 for systems with Broadcom BCM4312
On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 9:37 PM, Ken Schneider - openSUSE
On 07/12/2010 07:21 PM, Greg KH pecked at the keyboard and wrote:
On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 07:00:17PM -0400, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:
On 07/12/2010 01:28 PM, Greg KH pecked at the keyboard and wrote:
On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 12:19:18PM -0500, Larry Finger wrote:
On 07/12/2010 11:57 AM, Greg KH wrote:
On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 11:42:09PM +0700, medwinz wrote: > To activate wlan I use broadcom-wl package from OBS.
Why is this package in obs? The license for the wl driver does not allow it to be redistributed, please delete it from OBS before people get in big trouble...
In my mind, even having it on Packman is a violation of the Broadcom license. I think the only legal way to run Broadcom wl is to download the source from Broadcom's site and compile it on your own machine!
That is correct, it can not be in Pacman either.
I'll go poke the OBS maintainers tomorrow to delete these illegal packages from obs.
thanks,
greg k-h
While you are at it why not also provide a link to the download area and instructions on how to compile and install the driver.
Why would I want to promote a driver that violates Novell's public position on Linux kernel modules, as well as my own, and one that violates my personal copyright on the kernel?
{sigh}
greg k-h
Ah yes, I forgot that you would rather that companies give up their IP then you accommodate them in the kernel. Sorry.
Violating "Novell's public position" does not make using "closed source binary" kernel modules illegal. If you do not want others to provide "closed source binary" modules provide a viable (working) alternative. I was not aware that the kernel was *your* personal creative work to copyright.
Ken, In general every individual kernel submission is copyrighted by the submitter. That's one reason the kernel is unlikely to ever move to GPL 3. Greg KH has been a major kernel contributor for years so he has submitted tons of copyrighted material to the kernel. I have no idea how that breaks down between Novell and personal copyright, but I don't think it matters. And I believe that all close source kernel modules violate GPL 2. ie. GPL2 calls for all modules/libraries that link to GPL code to be GPL. Closed source modules clearly violate that. Greg (Freemyer) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 12 July 2010 20:52:11 Greg Freemyer wrote:
> Why is this package in obs? The license for the wl driver does not > allow it to be redistributed, please delete it from OBS before > people get in big trouble...
In my mind, even having it on Packman is a violation of the Broadcom license. I think the only legal way to run Broadcom wl is to download the source from Broadcom's site and compile it on your own machine!
That is correct, it can not be in Pacman either.
I'll go poke the OBS maintainers tomorrow to delete these illegal packages from obs.
thanks,
From the 'Official' readme.txt at Broadcom: "Broadcom Linux hybrid wireless driver DISCLAIMER ---------- This is an Official Release of Broadcom's hybrid Linux driver for use with Broadcom based hardware. WHERE TO GET THE RELEASE ------------------------ http://www.broadcom.com/support/802.11/linux_sta.php -snip- PRECOMPILED DRIVER ------------------- Some distros (Ubuntu and Fedora at the least) already have a version of this driver in their repositories precompiled, tested and ready to go. You just use the package manager to install the proper package. If its available for your distro, this is usually an easier solution. See the end of this document for further discussion." Why make the use of suse any harder than it already is? Richard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 13 July 2010 18:14:23 Richard Atcheson wrote:
PRECOMPILED DRIVER ------------------- Some distros (Ubuntu and Fedora at the least) already have a version of this driver in their repositories precompiled, tested and ready to go. You just use the package manager to install the proper package. If its available for your distro, this is usually an easier solution. See the end of this document for further discussion."
Why make the use of suse any harder than it already is?
Fedora does not ship it, it's part of rpm fusion. The driver violates the kernel license and therefore we do not distribute it as part of openSUSE. Why can't Broadcom play this - like many others - according to the roles of the game? Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Program Manager openSUSE, aj@{novell.com,opensuse.org} Twitter: jaegerandi | Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126
On 07/13/2010 03:57 PM, Andreas Jaeger pecked at the keyboard and wrote:
On Tuesday 13 July 2010 18:14:23 Richard Atcheson wrote:
PRECOMPILED DRIVER ------------------- Some distros (Ubuntu and Fedora at the least) already have a version of this driver in their repositories precompiled, tested and ready to go. You just use the package manager to install the proper package. If its available for your distro, this is usually an easier solution. See the end of this document for further discussion."
Why make the use of suse any harder than it already is?
Fedora does not ship it, it's part of rpm fusion.
The driver violates the kernel license and therefore we do not distribute it as part of openSUSE. Why can't Broadcom play this - like many others - according to the roles of the game?
Andreas
Ah Ha! Finally the real reason that people can accept. It violates the kernel license. That's much better then someone saving it goes against someone's opinion. And we all know everyone has an opinion. Now if only we could pick and choose the hardware built inside laptops. I would sure like to tear out the wireless in my laptop and replace it with one that provides an open source solution. -- Ken Schneider SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 13 Jul 2010 16:17:10 -0400, Ken Schneider - openSUSE
That's much better then someone saving it goes against someone's opinion. And we all know everyone has an opinion.
Could you leave out the sarcasm, please?
Now if only we could pick and choose the hardware built inside laptops.
In part you can choose. For those instances where you can't pick and choose, bring the manufacturer of the hardware to either supply drivers with a licence that's compatible with the kernel or to distribute the drivers themselves like for instance Nvidia does. You as an individual are relatively safe from lawsuits but a company like Novell is a much more interesting target for suing. And we would also violate the kernel license and the last thing we want is alienating the kernel developers. Philipp -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2010-07-14 00:51, Philipp Thomas wrote:
On Tue, 13 Jul 2010 16:17:10 -0400, Ken Schneider - openSUSE <> wrote:
Now if only we could pick and choose the hardware built inside laptops.
In part you can choose. For those instances where you can't pick and choose, bring the manufacturer of the hardware to either supply drivers with a licence that's compatible with the kernel or to distribute the drivers themselves like for instance Nvidia does.
Why would they? There is Windows, and that's all needs to be. If a few chaps want to use some weirdo like linux, it is their problem, not ours (theirs).
:-P
- -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Elessar)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkw+N84ACgkQU92UU+smfQXvEACfeAtKtJh293uuLUrsuvKpGOJq vbMAoJRTCYan44qbNTkuU96/9ylHEZJi =CSOr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 16:17 -0400, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:
On 07/13/2010 03:57 PM, Andreas Jaeger pecked at the keyboard and wrote:
On Tuesday 13 July 2010 18:14:23 Richard Atcheson wrote:
Now if only we could pick and choose the hardware built inside laptops. I would sure like to tear out the wireless in my laptop and replace it with one that provides an open source solution.
I hear that. I see so many nice laptops that have all I want, but they 'ruin it' with an ATI graphics chip. ATI has been nothing but trouble for me. I avoid them like the plague. It is not a philosophical stance about open source. It is simply that ATI are delivering drivers of questionable quality. And they drop support for hardware that is not so old. In fact, I am looking for a nice laptop right now. I guess I will be sure it also does not have a Broadcom chipset. The 'suggest a good laptop' question is an eternal one on this list. I don't dare ask for the current opinion. Even if I am interested. -- Roger Oberholtzer OPQ Systems / Ramböll RST Ramböll Sverige AB Krukmakargatan 21 P.O. Box 17009 SE-104 62 Stockholm, Sweden Office: Int +46 10-615 60 20 Mobile: Int +46 70-815 1696 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
* Roger Oberholtzer (roger@opq.se) [20100715 09:40]:
It is simply that ATI are delivering drivers of questionable quality.
I'd also like to see ATI drivers matching those of Nvidia in quality. Partly because they currently do have the better Hardware and partly because competition would be good. As it stands today, I fully agree that ATI cards and GPUs should be avoided at all cost. Philipp -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Roger Oberholtzer skrev:
On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 16:17 -0400, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:
On 07/13/2010 03:57 PM, Andreas Jaeger pecked at the keyboard and wrote:
On Tuesday 13 July 2010 18:14:23 Richard Atcheson wrote:
Now if only we could pick and choose the hardware built inside laptops. I would sure like to tear out the wireless in my laptop and replace it with one that provides an open source solution.
I hear that. I see so many nice laptops that have all I want, but they 'ruin it' with an ATI graphics chip. ATI has been nothing but trouble for me. I avoid them like the plague. It is not a philosophical stance about open source. It is simply that ATI are delivering drivers of questionable quality. And they drop support for hardware that is not so old. In fact, I am looking for a nice laptop right now. I guess I will be sure it also does not have a Broadcom chipset. The 'suggest a good laptop' question is an eternal one on this list. I don't dare ask for the current opinion. Even if I am interested.
IMHO, it might be a good idea to demand testing whether wireless networking works - with the full WPA2, TKIP, PSK and AES thing turned on, with static IP - on the thing before buying it. BR, Gudmund -- This message and any replies to it is scanned by http://www.fra.se. Please direct any complaints about this to them. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, 2010-07-15 at 13:17 +0200, Gudmund Areskoug wrote:
IMHO, it might be a good idea to demand testing whether wireless networking works - with the full WPA2, TKIP, PSK and AES thing turned on, with static IP - on the thing before buying it.
Provided they have a compatible (with mine) wireless access point set up for this. If so, I agree. Wireless has not been a problem for me lately. In fact, laptops have been working ok. I think I am rather conservative in choosing laptops. Perhaps this is making me more adventurous. I better be careful so I do not get burned. I have ATI chip issues with strange MBs on SuperMicro servers (not used as servers) that are more problematic than the laptop issues. -- Roger Oberholtzer OPQ Systems / Ramböll RST Ramböll Sverige AB Krukmakargatan 21 P.O. Box 17009 SE-104 62 Stockholm, Sweden Office: Int +46 10-615 60 20 Mobile: Int +46 70-815 1696 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2010-07-15 09:37, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
I hear that. I see so many nice laptops that have all I want, but they 'ruin it' with an ATI graphics chip. ATI has been nothing but trouble for me. I avoid them like the plague. It is not a philosophical stance about open source. It is simply that ATI are delivering drivers of questionable quality. And they drop support for hardware that is not so old. In fact, I am looking for a nice laptop right now. I guess I will be sure it also does not have a Broadcom chipset. The 'suggest a good laptop' question is an eternal one on this list. I don't dare ask for the current opinion. Even if I am interested.
Then you will get mine :-p I have a compaq cq61 with intel video. Wireless works out of the box (Atheros AR9285). Not a brilliant machine, but a nice one. You asked :-p Anyway, there is the HCL somewhere on the opensuse wiki. You should look there whatever you intend to buy - and everybody should report if their machines work or not and to what degree. That's what I did. My exact model was not reported, but a similar one was, so I took the risk. And I'm quite happy. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iF4EAREIAAYFAkw/JOAACgkQja8UbcUWM1znAQD/X77fsaeBFVe+236+NKXm5h1j NhKtneQHGheHs/Q0wvcBAIkAikqyaF/99vE7k1U2OOhtEqvOGXPoS0fqmWWnO+4w =q1QM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 13 July 2010 14:57:22 Andreas Jaeger wrote:
The driver violates the kernel license and therefore we do not distribute it as part of openSUSE.
I think I'm beginning to understand. The reason for not making the Broadcom drivers available is not because of Broadcom's distribution licensing but because it's closed source and the suse kernel is GPL and therefore the two will not play nice. If a user wants/needs the Broadcom driver then he must get it by some other means and figure out a way to install without suse's help. Is that the shorthand way of explaining it? Even if that is the case, I still don't understand the earlier comment that Packman couldnt make those drivers available.
Why can't Broadcom play this - like many others - according to the roles of the game?
Perhaps it's because no one really knows the rules of the game??
Andreas --
Is this another of those religious wars that will never be settled because there is no middle ground? It's awfully frustrating, especially to the non technical user. Richard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Wednesday 14 July 2010 02:37:41 Richard Atcheson wrote:
On Tuesday 13 July 2010 14:57:22 Andreas Jaeger wrote:
The driver violates the kernel license and therefore we do not distribute it as part of openSUSE.
I think I'm beginning to understand. The reason for not making the Broadcom drivers available is not because of Broadcom's distribution licensing but because it's closed source and the suse kernel is GPL and therefore the two will not play nice. If a user wants/needs the Broadcom driver then he must get it by some other means and figure out a way to install without suse's help. Is that the shorthand way of explaining it?
Yes.
Even if that is the case, I still don't understand the earlier comment that Packman couldnt make those drivers available.
The Broadcom files comes with a license agreement. Everybody has to assign on his own whether that one allows distribution - and whether the conditions in the license are something you want to follow or whether the legal risk is too high. Greg interprets the license that nobody can distribute it - looking at the license myself, I do not see that, maybe he looked at a previous license, maybe he found something I didn't see. But the clauses are so strict and unfavorable for me - if I distribute them - that I would not want to distribute it based on the license, the risk is far too high.
Why can't Broadcom play this - like many others - according to the roles of the game?
Perhaps it's because no one really knows the rules of the game??
they are known for sure and many others follow them without problems...
Is this another of those religious wars that will never be settled because there is no middle ground?
There are a few ways to handle this. The thing is that many vendors have open sourced their drivers - you can buy a laptop with an Intel Wifi card and that one is open source etc. But besides the kernel license violation, the closed source drivers often have bugs in them that will break your kernel completely. So, the kernel developers have given up debugging kernels with a closed source driver running...
It's awfully frustrating, especially to the non technical user.
Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Program Manager openSUSE, aj@{novell.com,opensuse.org} Twitter: jaegerandi | Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126
participants (9)
-
Andreas Jaeger -
Carlos E. R. -
Greg Freemyer -
Gudmund Areskoug -
Ken Schneider - openSUSE -
Philipp Thomas -
Philipp Thomas -
Richard Atcheson -
Roger Oberholtzer