It would appear that on Sep 28, Anton Aylward did say:

These days I use the Wheel Group mechanism :-)

So do I... And I just peeked at my OpenSuSE group and sudoers files. wheel:x:10:jtwdyp %wheel ALL=(ALL) ALL So I'm thinking it didn't help in this case... :-(

Incidentally, about E17. I only see a pre-release/beta/whatever version in the repositories.

Yeah, but I've heard tell that that is because the e17 devs are perfectionists and won't even call it a proper beta release until they run out of bugs... And you know how it is. Fix one thing, break another... <sigh>

I've tried E16 and its like an 'interesting sampler' or movie trailer, promising the real thing, but the E17 I get from the opensuse repositories is even less usable than E16.

Well that depends on what you want from it. AND how you configure it. While there are enough improvements in E17 which is part DE to make me use it more often than E16. E16 itself, which is strictly a WM, is more stable. Once configured to my taste I find either one easier to use than xfce, gnome kde4 and even kde3... But like any other WM or DE I've tried to date, both take MUCH customization before I'm comfortable with them. For starters I dislike losing focus just because the mouse drifted off the window I was typing into so I always have set the "click to focus" option. And I have to disable edje flipping to avoid the desktop area from changing just because that #&$#*&#$#@ rodent drifted too close to the edge... Then, I've got to restrict the mouse bindings and recreate a totally different set of keybindings (Just like I would have to with kde, xfce) Though in fact, unlike the others (including e17, with E16 I can just edit a text based key bindings file, and/or copy it from a previously configured e16. That means I usually set up e16 first... And for me that includes compensating for its greatest weakness (the lack of a run prompt) by assigning <alt>+<F2> to either xfrun4 If I've also got xfce installed, or to the yakuake pop-up konsole emulator that works as a good substitute as long as I remember to append an & to most commands...

Or maybe my KDE4 sensibilities are showing :-)

Well now that brings me to mention another thing I do with E1[67] even more than I used to do with kde3 which used to be my ONLY desktop that kde4 kind of dumped on. I understood that the devs had a vision of a new way to organize ones tasks that they thought was better than grouping them by desktop areas (or as some call them workspaces) But I always needed to set most of my application & terminal windows up to something close to a "maximized" state in order to have a a reasonable line length with a font size I could actually read. And pointing at task bar buttons with a mouse was not for me, so I like knowing that with <ctrl>+<F-key> I could select the desktop where I was already running the app I needed without having to look for it. For example I know that If I want my email client it's always running in the desktop area pointed at by <ctrl>+<F2> If I'm running an opera session it can be found on <ctrl>+<F1> where as there are some differences in the kinds of things I run firefox (complete with noscript) for. So that would (except when called by a link in my Email) normally be found at <ctrl>+<F5>. If I've got a root process running I'll find it on <ctrl>+<F11> or <ctrl>+<F12> depending on if it's a gui <F11> or runs in a root shell <F12> And each and every one of my desktop area's has a different background, which aids in being sure that the application I'm about to open will be located where I'll expect to find it later. E17 does occasionally have a glitch. But not very often. And if an upgrade brakes something, well that's why I run 4 different Linux on my laptop, and 5 on my desktop, As long as I don't update the last one until at least one of the others is fixed, A bad upgrade never stops me cold. I simply either switch to e16, if e17 is messing up, or reboot to a different distro until I have the time to work on the problem... But neither E17 nor E16 are for everybody. So while I might despise what kde4 did to kde, that doesn't mean you have to. It might be that kde4 is the best environment for you. in any case I hope you enjoy whichever one you choose to use. Have a good one. -- | --- ___ | <0> <-> Joe (theWordy) Philbrook | ^ J(tWdy)P | ~\___/~ <<jtwdyp@ttlc.net>> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org