[opensuse] Linux home directory management is about to undergo major change - TechRepublic
When is this coming to openSuSE? https://www.techrepublic.com/article/linux-home-directory-management-is-about-to-undergo-major-change/?ftag=TRE475558a&bhid=12825460&mid=12819432&cid=712355268 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
James Knott wrote:
When is this coming to openSuSE?
Tumbleweed has systemd 245. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (14.7°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - your free DNS host, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2020-05-05 09:29 AM, Per Jessen wrote:
James Knott wrote:
When is this coming to openSuSE?
https://www.techrepublic.com/article/linux-home-directory-management-is-about-to-undergo-major-change/?ftag=TRE475558a&bhid=12825460&mid=12819432&cid=712355268 Tumbleweed has systemd 245.
I run Leap. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 05/05/2020 15.55, James Knott wrote:
On 2020-05-05 09:29 AM, Per Jessen wrote:
James Knott wrote:
When is this coming to openSuSE?
Tumbleweed has systemd 245.
I run Leap.
Then you will not see it till 16.0 at least. IF. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 2020-05-05 7:29 a.m., Per Jessen wrote:
James Knott wrote:
When is this coming to openSuSE?
Tumbleweed has systemd 245.
"Each user home directory will be linked as LUKS-encrypted containers, with the encryption directly coupled to user login." How is migration to the new system going to be handled? The article is rather quiet on this. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2020-05-05 10:09 AM, Darryl Gregorash wrote:
"Each user home directory will be linked as LUKS-encrypted containers, with the encryption directly coupled to user login."
How is migration to the new system going to be handled? The article is rather quiet on this.
Also, the question of SSH login is still open. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, 5 May 2020 10:12:01 -0400 James Knott <james.knott@jknott.net> wrote:
On 2020-05-05 10:09 AM, Darryl Gregorash wrote:
"Each user home directory will be linked as LUKS-encrypted containers, with the encryption directly coupled to user login."
How is migration to the new system going to be handled? The article is rather quiet on this.
Also, the question of SSH login is still open.
Not to mention what happens if I want a different home directory on my different systems? (maybe because I run a different desktop, or home vs work or W.H.Y.) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 5/5/20 9:09 AM, Darryl Gregorash wrote:
On 2020-05-05 7:29 a.m., Per Jessen wrote:
James Knott wrote:
When is this coming to openSuSE?
Tumbleweed has systemd 245.
"Each user home directory will be linked as LUKS-encrypted containers, with the encryption directly coupled to user login."
How is migration to the new system going to be handled? The article is rather quiet on this.
My /home directory is about 2G. Encrypted? What could possibly go wrong? Now instead of maybe losing a file due to encryption (or decryption) errors, you lose the whole thing. My history with that doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy about this "New and Improved". <political.rant> It is like systems envisioned by the left, they only work if things go a certain way. Like that ever happens. </political.rant> My daddy would see a commercial on TV that promised "New and Improved" and he would always ask how something could be both "New" and "Improved". Even the article says it only works on local systems, no remotes but (gushingly) "You can be sure that Poettering will come up with a solution..." but if not it will be "relegated to desktops and laptops, leaving servers out of the mix". OMG, another utopian solution down the tubes. Hopefully. - Fred -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
* Stevens <fred-n-sandy@myrhinomail.com> [05-05-20 10:28]:
On 5/5/20 9:09 AM, Darryl Gregorash wrote:
On 2020-05-05 7:29 a.m., Per Jessen wrote:
James Knott wrote:
When is this coming to openSuSE?
Tumbleweed has systemd 245.
"Each user home directory will be linked as LUKS-encrypted containers, with the encryption directly coupled to user login."
How is migration to the new system going to be handled? The article is rather quiet on this.
My /home directory is about 2G. Encrypted? What could possibly go wrong? Now instead of maybe losing a file due to encryption (or decryption) errors, you lose the whole thing. My history with that doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy about this "New and Improved". <political.rant> It is like systems envisioned by the left, they only work if things go a certain way. Like that ever happens. </political.rant> My daddy would see a commercial on TV that promised "New and Improved" and he would always ask how something could be both "New" and "Improved". Even the article says it only works on local systems, no remotes but (gushingly) "You can be sure that Poettering will come up with a solution..." but if not it will be "relegated to desktops and laptops, leaving servers out of the mix". OMG, another utopian solution down the tubes. Hopefully. - Fred
and opensuse-offtopic exists specifically for your "political.rant"s, so why *pollute* here? rhetorical comment/question, no response expected or required. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2020-05-05 10:26 AM, Stevens wrote:
How is migration to the new system going to be handled? The article is rather quiet on this.
My /home directory is about 2G. Encrypted? What could possibly go wrong? Now instead of maybe losing a file due to encryption (or decryption) errors, you lose the whole thing. My history with that doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy about this "New and Improved". <political.rant> It is like systems envisioned by the left, they only work if things go a certain way. Like that ever happens. </political.rant> My daddy would see a commercial on TV that promised "New and Improved" and he would always ask how something could be both "New" and "Improved". Even the article says it only works on local systems, no remotes but (gushingly) "You can be sure that Poettering will come up with a solution..." but if not it will be "relegated to desktops and laptops, leaving servers out of the mix". OMG, another utopian solution down the tubes. Hopefully.
Several years ago, I was converting several Windows computers to encrypted partitions, with the user data still on C:, rather than a separate partition. While it didn't happen to me, the guy I was working with had one fail, with no access to the drive at all! Hopefully, encryption will be optional. I certainly don't need it on my home computers, as my dog & cat don't show much interest in them. ;-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Darryl Gregorash wrote:
On 2020-05-05 7:29 a.m., Per Jessen wrote:
James Knott wrote:
When is this coming to openSuSE?
Tumbleweed has systemd 245.
"Each user home directory will be linked as LUKS-encrypted containers, with the encryption directly coupled to user login."
How is migration to the new system going to be handled? The article is rather quiet on this.
I would expect migration to be an implementation detail, i.e. for openSUSE to decide and support. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (14.4°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - virtual servers, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 05/05/2020 10:09, Darryl Gregorash wrote:
On 2020-05-05 7:29 a.m., Per Jessen wrote:
James Knott wrote:
When is this coming to openSuSE?
Tumbleweed has systemd 245.
"Each user home directory will be linked as LUKS-encrypted containers, with the encryption directly coupled to user login."
How is migration to the new system going to be handled? The article is rather quiet on this.
I can understand mounting the home directory, but what else? My 'home' is not that large lvdisplay /dev/vgmain/vHome tells me it's just 30G and DF tells me I'm using just 8G of it. I suspect a lot of that are the config files Most of personal storage is in other partitions: /home/anton/Downloads /home/anton/Mail /home/anton/Media /home/anton/MyDocuments /home/anton/MyMovies /home/anton/MyMovies/AVI /home/anton/MyMovies/M4Vb /home/anton/MyMusic /home/anton/PDF /home/anton/Photographs /home/anton/Photographs/ByYear/2014 /home/anton/Photographs/ByYear/2017 /home/anton/Photographs/ByYear/2018 /home/anton/Photographs/ByYear/2019 /home/anton/Photographs/ByYear/2020 As I've commented before, it's organized that way for backup management. Some of those will see no variation from month to month and all have content that will fit on a 5G DVD using 'cdrecord' or 'k3b' So how will this be handled i the brave new World of homed ? -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 08/05/2020 14.23, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 05/05/2020 10:09, Darryl Gregorash wrote:
On 2020-05-05 7:29 a.m., Per Jessen wrote:
James Knott wrote:
When is this coming to openSuSE?
Tumbleweed has systemd 245.
"Each user home directory will be linked as LUKS-encrypted containers, with the encryption directly coupled to user login."
How is migration to the new system going to be handled? The article is rather quiet on this.
I can understand mounting the home directory, but what else? My 'home' is not that large lvdisplay /dev/vgmain/vHome tells me it's just 30G and DF tells me I'm using just 8G of it. I suspect a lot of that are the config files Most of personal storage is in other partitions:
/home/anton/Downloads /home/anton/Mail /home/anton/Media /home/anton/MyDocuments /home/anton/MyMovies /home/anton/MyMovies/AVI /home/anton/MyMovies/M4Vb /home/anton/MyMusic /home/anton/PDF /home/anton/Photographs /home/anton/Photographs/ByYear/2014 /home/anton/Photographs/ByYear/2017 /home/anton/Photographs/ByYear/2018 /home/anton/Photographs/ByYear/2019 /home/anton/Photographs/ByYear/2020
LOL. Too complicated.
As I've commented before, it's organized that way for backup management. Some of those will see no variation from month to month and all have content that will fit on a 5G DVD using 'cdrecord' or 'k3b'
Use instead a Blue Ray recorder, and write 25/50/100 HB in one go :-D Or wait till somebody creates at last a good backup software that can write spanning several DVDs on the go. For Linux.
So how will this be handled i the brave new World of homed ?
It won't :-P -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [05-08-20 14:11]: [...]
LOL. Too complicated.
As I've commented before, it's organized that way for backup management. Some of those will see no variation from month to month and all have content that will fit on a 5G DVD using 'cdrecord' or 'k3b'
Use instead a Blue Ray recorder, and write 25/50/100 HB in one go :-D
Or wait till somebody creates at last a good backup software that can write spanning several DVDs on the go. For Linux.
it is called "dar" and is quite good and maintained and available for openSUSE also available dargui which I have compiled on my server but not for any current system. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday, 2020-05-08 at 14:35 -0400, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <> [05-08-20 14:11]: [...]
LOL. Too complicated.
As I've commented before, it's organized that way for backup management. Some of those will see no variation from month to month and all have content that will fit on a 5G DVD using 'cdrecord' or 'k3b'
Use instead a Blue Ray recorder, and write 25/50/100 HB in one go :-D
Or wait till somebody creates at last a good backup software that can write spanning several DVDs on the go. For Linux.
it is called "dar" and is quite good and maintained and available for openSUSE
Not even close.
also available dargui which I have compiled on my server but not for any current system.
- -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHoEARECADoWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXrWsPRwccm9iaW4ubGlz dGFzQHRlbGVmb25pY2EubmV0AAoJELUzGBxtjUfVt/4AoIs5SZnt/698yXb7LHAP Dn2YRlK0AJ9NdOvbD7WrFGghhZ/9K8+Y998/iw== =vy7L -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [05-08-20 14:11]: [...]
LOL. Too complicated.
As I've commented before, it's organized that way for backup management. Some of those will see no variation from month to month and all have content that will fit on a 5G DVD using 'cdrecord' or 'k3b'
Use instead a Blue Ray recorder, and write 25/50/100 HB in one go :-D
Or wait till somebody creates at last a good backup software that can write spanning several DVDs on the go. For Linux.
it is called "dar" and is quite good and maintained and available for openSUSE
I was about to say 'tar', but 'dar' sounds good too. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (18.2°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - virtual servers, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 08/05/2020 21.44, Per Jessen wrote:
Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <> [05-08-20 14:11]: [...]
LOL. Too complicated.
As I've commented before, it's organized that way for backup management. Some of those will see no variation from month to month and all have content that will fit on a 5G DVD using 'cdrecord' or 'k3b'
Use instead a Blue Ray recorder, and write 25/50/100 HB in one go :-D
Or wait till somebody creates at last a good backup software that can write spanning several DVDs on the go. For Linux.
it is called "dar" and is quite good and maintained and available for openSUSE
I was about to say 'tar', but 'dar' sounds good too.
Not even close. I'm thinking of the wonderful PCBackup of MsDOS times. I have seen nothing close to it in Linux. AKA Central Point Backup. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PC_Tools_(software)> I want A GUI tool that selects what to backup according to easy to create profiles or manual selection, and writes it automatically to DVD or BlueRay (or other media), requesting the next disc when needed, with compression, encryption, and forward error recovery all included. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 2020-05-08 03:52 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
I was about to say 'tar', but 'dar' sounds good too.
Not even close.
I'm thinking of the wonderful PCBackup of MsDOS times. I have seen nothing close to it in Linux. AKA Central Point Backup.
Backups should be done with tar to 9 track tapes, the way the computer gods intended! ;-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
James Knott wrote:
On 2020-05-08 03:52 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
I was about to say 'tar', but 'dar' sounds good too.
Not even close.
I'm thinking of the wonderful PCBackup of MsDOS times. I have seen nothing close to it in Linux. AKA Central Point Backup.
Backups should be done with tar to 9 track tapes, the way the computer gods intended! ;-)
That is essentially how it is being done. Terabyte after terabyte is being written to LTO8 cartridges, night after night. Seriously, the concept has not changed for decades. My guys still drive backup and archive tapes to a vault in an undeground ABC bunker, every night at 22:00. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (17.4°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - virtual servers, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2020-05-08 04:10 PM, Per Jessen wrote:
Backups should be done with tar to 9 track tapes, the way the computer gods intended!;-) That is essentially how it is being done. Terabyte after terabyte is being written to LTO8 cartridges, night after night. Seriously, the concept has not changed for decades. My guys still drive backup and archive tapes to a vault in an undeground ABC bunker, every night at 22:00.
That's how it was done back when I was a computer tech. When I was on the evening shift, I'd see the operator feedings stacks of tape reels to back up some systems. Then a courier would take them away to off site storage. There was one person whose only job was to manage the tape inventory. She even had a machine that checked the tape physical condition. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, 8 May 2020 16:15:22 -0400 James Knott <james.knott@jknott.net> wrote:
On 2020-05-08 04:10 PM, Per Jessen wrote:
Backups should be done with tar to 9 track tapes, the way the computer gods intended!;-) That is essentially how it is being done. Terabyte after terabyte is being written to LTO8 cartridges, night after night. Seriously, the concept has not changed for decades. My guys still drive backup and archive tapes to a vault in an undeground ABC bunker, every night at 22:00.
That's how it was done back when I was a computer tech. When I was on the evening shift, I'd see the operator feedings stacks of tape reels to back up some systems. Then a courier would take them away to off site storage. There was one person whose only job was to manage the tape inventory. She even had a machine that checked the tape physical condition.
That hasn't been real since the first time I ran a 'what if a plane crashed into our headquarters' or even the first time I ran an intercontinental X server. The solution is that you backup over the Internet to somewhere else on the planet. It really doesn't matter what you backup to, as long as there are several such places. And modulo data protection laws, of course, but I suppose encryption can dig you out of those holes. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2020-05-08 04:40 PM, Dave Howorth wrote:
That hasn't been real since the first time I ran a 'what if a plane crashed into our headquarters' or even the first time I ran an intercontinental X server. The solution is that you backup over the Internet to somewhere else on the planet. It really doesn't matter what you backup to, as long as there are several such places. And modulo data protection laws, of course, but I suppose encryption can dig you out of those holes.
This goes back before the Internet. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
* James Knott <james.knott@jknott.net> [05-08-20 17:02]:
On 2020-05-08 04:40 PM, Dave Howorth wrote:
That hasn't been real since the first time I ran a 'what if a plane crashed into our headquarters' or even the first time I ran an intercontinental X server. The solution is that you backup over the Internet to somewhere else on the planet. It really doesn't matter what you backup to, as long as there are several such places. And modulo data protection laws, of course, but I suppose encryption can dig you out of those holes.
This goes back before the Internet.
right after Al Gore discovered fire. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2020-05-08 05:05 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
This goes back before the Internet. right after Al Gore discovered fire.
Back then I worked for a telecom company and the computers were used for message switching, including the public telegraph system. When I left that work, in 1989, we were into frame relay. Back then I also hand wired a couple of Ethernet adapters for some Data General Eclipse computers. We also had a "thick net" 10base5 Ethernet network, running DECNet, connecting some VAX 11/780 computers. There was also a TDM, not packet, based LAN in the Air Canada reservation system and the old telegraph system. We also provided the Telenet X.25 service in Canada, running on Pr1me computers. We also had Compuserve and the Microsoft Network in that building. All three of those services used banks of dial in modems, for customers to connect. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, 8 May 2020 16:55:51 -0400 James Knott <james.knott@jknott.net> wrote:
On 2020-05-08 04:40 PM, Dave Howorth wrote:
That hasn't been real since the first time I ran a 'what if a plane crashed into our headquarters' or even the first time I ran an intercontinental X server. The solution is that you backup over the Internet to somewhere else on the planet. It really doesn't matter what you backup to, as long as there are several such places. And modulo data protection laws, of course, but I suppose encryption can dig you out of those holes.
This goes back before the Internet.
Well, no. I go back before the Internet, sure, but backup technique changed fundamentally when the Internet came into existence, though I admit the intercontinental X-server was implemented by stealing some ISDN circuits from an intercontinental voice network and using them to run data instead. We were in London trying to sell some software to a New York dealing room. You didn't want that kind of traffic on a public network. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Dave Howorth wrote:
On Fri, 8 May 2020 16:15:22 -0400 James Knott <james.knott@jknott.net> wrote:
On 2020-05-08 04:10 PM, Per Jessen wrote:
Backups should be done with tar to 9 track tapes, the way the computer gods intended!;-) That is essentially how it is being done. Terabyte after terabyte is being written to LTO8 cartridges, night after night. Seriously, the concept has not changed for decades. My guys still drive backup and archive tapes to a vault in an undeground ABC bunker, every night at 22:00.
That's how it was done back when I was a computer tech. When I was on the evening shift, I'd see the operator feedings stacks of tape reels to back up some systems. Then a courier would take them away to off site storage. There was one person whose only job was to manage the tape inventory. She even had a machine that checked the tape physical condition.
That hasn't been real since the first time I ran a 'what if a plane crashed into our headquarters'
It's very real, Dave. It may not deal with the jumbojet landing on your datacentre scenario, but it handles virtually every other.
or even the first time I ran an intercontinental X server. The solution is that you backup over the Internet to somewhere else on the planet.
One issue is bandwidth. It can be overcome, yes, but streaming data to 10 or 20 LTO drives at 400MB/sec is also quite efficient. My operation is tiny, but go to one of the big banks and see how many tapes they consume. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (20.3°C) http://www.cloudsuisse.com/ - your owncloud, hosted in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Le 09/05/2020 à 10:56, Per Jessen a écrit :
is tiny, but go to one of the big banks and see how many tapes they consume.
an at what price if you want to be able to read them in ten years in the future... I remember an hp tape reader that... eated tapes... tapes gone :-( the tape may be still here next century, but the reader? dvd are more secure because reader are widely available at cheap price, and some dvd are pretty sturdy (I also have never user gold cd, said to last centuries) any medium not copied to a more recent one every now and then is prone to die jdd -- http://dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
jdd@dodin.org wrote:
Le 09/05/2020 à 10:56, Per Jessen a écrit :
is tiny, but go to one of the big banks and see how many tapes they consume.
an at what price if you want to be able to read them in ten years in the future...
Archiving is another matter, that is true.
any medium not copied to a more recent one every now and then is prone to die
Correct, and that is exactly what we do for archiving. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (20.4°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - free dynamic DNS, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/05/2020 11.04, jdd@dodin.org wrote:
Le 09/05/2020 à 10:56, Per Jessen a écrit :
is tiny, but go to one of the big banks and see how many tapes they consume.
an at what price if you want to be able to read them in ten years in the future...
I remember an hp tape reader that... eated tapes... tapes gone :-(
the tape may be still here next century, but the reader?
A century is too far away, but tape drives are sold today.
dvd are more secure because reader are widely available at cheap price, and some dvd are pretty sturdy (I also have never user gold cd, said to last centuries)
I use archival quality blueray disks. Not easy to find, though.
any medium not copied to a more recent one every now and then is prone to die
That's a huge problem. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Le 09/05/2020 à 12:42, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
I use archival quality blueray disks. Not easy to find, though.
I don't challenge the disk, although too expensive for large backup, but the reader. PC ones are expensive (https://www.amazon.fr/techPulse-aluminium-Superdrive-Compatible-Ordinateurs/...) , I dunno if consumer grade BD reader can be used to read on a pc jdd -- http://dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/05/2020 13.27, jdd@dodin.org wrote:
Le 09/05/2020 à 12:42, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
I use archival quality blueray disks. Not easy to find, though.
I don't challenge the disk, although too expensive for large backup, but the reader. PC ones are expensive (https://www.amazon.fr/techPulse-aluminium-Superdrive-Compatible-Ordinateurs/...) , I dunno if consumer grade BD reader can be used to read on a pc
I see an ASUS BW-16D1HT (internal drive) at 100.25€ <https://www.pccomponentes.com/asus-bw-16d1ht-grabadora-blu-ray-dvd-interna-sata> An LG BH16NS55 at 77.44€ <https://www.pccomponentes.com/lg-bh16ns55-grabadora-blu-ray-dvd-interna-sata> That is not expensive. An LTO 8 drive at amazon is 2500€. I see an LTO 6 by HP at 3700, LTO 4 HP at 2500... no way older is cheaper. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 05/09/2020 02:04 AM, jdd@dodin.org wrote:
Le 09/05/2020 à 10:56, Per Jessen a écrit :
is tiny, but go to one of the big banks and see how many tapes they consume.
an at what price if you want to be able to read them in ten years in the future...
I remember an hp tape reader that... eated tapes... tapes gone :-(
the tape may be still here next century, but the reader?
dvd are more secure because reader are widely available at cheap price, and some dvd are pretty sturdy (I also have never user gold cd, said to last centuries)
any medium not copied to a more recent one every now and then is prone to die
This reminds me of a tape experience I had, maybe 35-years ago. We recorded lots of analog acoustic data on 1-inch instrumentation tape, there were 12-channels on the tape IIRC. We used an Ampex reel-to-reel recorder with high-quality Ampex tape. The data were recorded with amplitude modulation, not frequency. At any rate, the data were analyzed, reports written, and the tapes put on the shelf. About ten years later, the need arose to look at the raw data again. The original recorder was still available and was pressed into service. But the data now contained a rather high amplitude "buzz", rich in harmonics. After some investigation I discovered that the oxide layer on the tape had degraded to the point where it would rub off on the tape heads. This had the effect of making the heads a tiny bit "sticky", which caused the tape to stutter across the heads instead of sliding smoothly. The heads could be cleaned, but the buzz quickly returned. The data were useless. Bottom line: Don't trust old tapes! Hmm.... I wonder if the oxide will degrade on hard disk platters? Regards, Lew -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 08/05/2020 22.02, James Knott wrote:
On 2020-05-08 03:52 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
I was about to say 'tar', but 'dar' sounds good too.
Not even close.
I'm thinking of the wonderful PCBackup of MsDOS times. I have seen nothing close to it in Linux. AKA Central Point Backup.
Backups should be done with tar to 9 track tapes, the way the computer gods intended! ;-)
At prices that only the gods can afford. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 08/05/2020 22.02, James Knott wrote:
On 2020-05-08 03:52 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
I was about to say 'tar', but 'dar' sounds good too.
Not even close.
I'm thinking of the wonderful PCBackup of MsDOS times. I have seen nothing close to it in Linux. AKA Central Point Backup.
Backups should be done with tar to 9 track tapes, the way the computer gods intended! ;-)
At prices that only the gods can afford.
Not at all - the latest generation LTO _is_ expensive, but then you go with the 2nd or 3rd. Besides, tape backups are really only for a business context. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (20.2°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - free dynamic DNS, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/05/2020 10.57, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 08/05/2020 22.02, James Knott wrote:
On 2020-05-08 03:52 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
I was about to say 'tar', but 'dar' sounds good too.
Not even close.
I'm thinking of the wonderful PCBackup of MsDOS times. I have seen nothing close to it in Linux. AKA Central Point Backup.
Backups should be done with tar to 9 track tapes, the way the computer gods intended! ;-)
At prices that only the gods can afford.
Not at all - the latest generation LTO _is_ expensive, but then you go with the 2nd or 3rd. Besides, tape backups are really only for a business context.
I looked some time ago, and what I could find was prohibitive or expensive. Now... heh, the word "LTO" or "tape" is not found on the place I shop. Well, tape finds adhesive tape and others. It ends up in what I said: we (home users) can only use another hard disk, or dvd/blueray. USB sticks are not reliable enough / long term. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 08/05/2020 21.44, Per Jessen wrote:
Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <> [05-08-20 14:11]: [...]
LOL. Too complicated.
As I've commented before, it's organized that way for backup management. Some of those will see no variation from month to month and all have content that will fit on a 5G DVD using 'cdrecord' or 'k3b'
Use instead a Blue Ray recorder, and write 25/50/100 HB in one go :-D
Or wait till somebody creates at last a good backup software that can write spanning several DVDs on the go. For Linux.
it is called "dar" and is quite good and maintained and available for openSUSE
I was about to say 'tar', but 'dar' sounds good too.
Not even close.
Why not? tar does volume-by-volume backup to tape - it doesn't seem unreasonable it could be done to DVD too ? A limited media is a limited media. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (17.5°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - dedicated server rental in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, 08 May 2020 22:05:45 +0200 Per Jessen <per@computer.org> wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 08/05/2020 21.44, Per Jessen wrote:
Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <> [05-08-20 14:11]: [...]
LOL. Too complicated.
As I've commented before, it's organized that way for backup management. Some of those will see no variation from month to month and all have content that will fit on a 5G DVD using 'cdrecord' or 'k3b'
Use instead a Blue Ray recorder, and write 25/50/100 HB in one go :-D
Or wait till somebody creates at last a good backup software that can write spanning several DVDs on the go. For Linux.
it is called "dar" and is quite good and maintained and available for openSUSE
I was about to say 'tar', but 'dar' sounds good too.
Not even close.
Why not? tar does volume-by-volume backup to tape - it doesn't seem unreasonable it could be done to DVD too ? A limited media is a limited media.
But none of those solutions produce individually usable backup volumes in quite the way Anton's solution does. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 08/05/2020 22.05, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 08/05/2020 21.44, Per Jessen wrote:
Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <> [05-08-20 14:11]: [...]
LOL. Too complicated.
As I've commented before, it's organized that way for backup management. Some of those will see no variation from month to month and all have content that will fit on a 5G DVD using 'cdrecord' or 'k3b'
Use instead a Blue Ray recorder, and write 25/50/100 HB in one go :-D
Or wait till somebody creates at last a good backup software that can write spanning several DVDs on the go. For Linux.
it is called "dar" and is quite good and maintained and available for openSUSE
I was about to say 'tar', but 'dar' sounds good too.
Not even close.
Why not? tar does volume-by-volume backup to tape - it doesn't seem unreasonable it could be done to DVD too ? A limited media is a limited media.
No, it doesn't do DVD. Perhaps it does with horrible hacks. And it doesn't do forward error recovery, with transparent compression, so that a scratch doesn't damage anything. The method I know is creating the images on hard disk, and later transferring those to the media. Needs having huge free space. Frankly, I much prefer direct write to directory to a filesystem structure on the DVD, except that the fitting to size becomes difficult. There is no tool that can be told to backup a tree, and create suitable sized trees for writing transparently on the fly, and to keep a database of what was backed up and when and where. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Carlos, et al -- ...and then Carlos E. R. said... % ... % structure on the DVD, except that the fitting to size becomes % difficult. There is no tool that can be told to backup a tree, and % create suitable sized trees for writing transparently on the fly, % and to keep a database of what was backed up and when and where. I haven't seen it, either, but I would LOVE this :-) It also seems not incredibly hard to design; I've had to play with some of the same sort of smarts copying /path/to/trees out to multiple volumes and squeezing in as much as able on each, and I just did that in shell script. If anyone knows of something like that already extant, please send pointers! :-) HANW :-D -- David T-G See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/email/ See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/tofu.txt -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Le 09/05/2020 à 04:00, David T-G a écrit :
Carlos, et al --
% and to keep a database of what was backed up and when and where.
I haven't seen it, either, but I would LOVE this :-)
it's pretty easy to make. If files are well organized a simple "tree" command do the job... but if organization is good, index is of little use :-( jdd -- http://dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/05/2020 09.32, jdd@dodin.org wrote:
Le 09/05/2020 à 04:00, David T-G a écrit :
Carlos, et al --
% and to keep a database of what was backed up and when and where.
I haven't seen it, either, but I would LOVE this :-)
it's pretty easy to make. If files are well organized a simple "tree" command do the job...
but if organization is good, index is of little use :-(
No, it is not that easy. Suppose I have 300 GB to write on 50 GB disks. How do you do the distribution of files, not forgetting any? If I'm saving movies, each 2..6 GB, chances are I end with a big hole on each disk, say 1.5 GB That's what tar is used for, but that's a chunky tool. There is dar, but "dvd" is not mentioned: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dar_(disk_archiver)> <http://dar.linux.free.fr/doc/presentation.html> says: «From a filesystem, dar creates an archive, which may be split in a set of files (called slices) which size is user defined. Dar archives are suitable to be stored on floppy, CD, DVD, usb key, hard disks, and since release 2.4.0 to tapes too. But no, *dar itself cannot burn a DVD*. Instead the user can give dar a command to execute each time a slice is completed.» Emphasis mine. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Le 09/05/2020 à 13:54, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
On 09/05/2020 09.32, jdd@dodin.org wrote:
but if organization is good, index is of little use :-(
No, it is not that easy. Suppose I have 300 GB to write on 50 GB disks. How do you do the distribution of files, not forgetting any? If I'm saving movies, each 2..6 GB, chances are I end with a big hole on each disk, say 1.5 GB
sorry, but I find this a bit ridiculous. Use bigger disk. They are nearly free. Right now I have several spare disk more than 1Tb large (replaced by ssd) jdd -- http://dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/05/2020 15.53, jdd@dodin.org wrote:
Le 09/05/2020 à 13:54, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
On 09/05/2020 09.32, jdd@dodin.org wrote:
but if organization is good, index is of little use :-(
No, it is not that easy. Suppose I have 300 GB to write on 50 GB disks. How do you do the distribution of files, not forgetting any? If I'm saving movies, each 2..6 GB, chances are I end with a big hole on each disk, say 1.5 GB
sorry, but I find this a bit ridiculous. Use bigger disk. They are nearly free. Right now I have several spare disk more than 1Tb large (replaced by ssd)
Top size of blueray is 100 GB. The sweet spot (€/GB) was with 50 GB disks. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Le 09/05/2020 à 16:26, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
Top size of blueray is 100 GB. The sweet spot (€/GB) was with 50 GB disks.
$100 for 5, $150 the writer... when https://www.bestbuy.com/site/wd-my-passport-5tb-external-usb-3-0-portable-hard-drive-with-hardware-encryption-latest-model-black/6380848.p?skuId=6380848&intl=nosplash jdd -- http://dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/05/2020 16.48, jdd@dodin.org wrote:
Le 09/05/2020 à 16:26, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
Top size of blueray is 100 GB. The sweet spot (€/GB) was with 50 GB disks.
$100 for 5, $150 the writer...
when
jdd
This is what I use: <https://www.pccomponentes.com/wd-my-book-essential-8tb-35-usb-30-negro> WD My Book Essential 8TB 3.5" USB 3.0 Black. 180€ Formatted as btrfs with compression, with LUKS encription. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 08/05/2020 17:35, Carlos E. R. wrote:
The method I know is creating the images on hard disk, and later transferring those to the media. Needs having huge free space. Frankly, I much prefer direct write to directory to a filesystem structure on the DVD, except that the fitting to size becomes difficult. There is no tool that can be told to backup a tree, and create suitable sized trees for writing transparently on the fly, and to keep a database of what was backed up and when and where.
Firstly the 'image' needn't be huge. Its one reason I have limited size partitions so i can use tools that don't cross the boundary of a file system, most notably 'rsync'. I can also tell 'rsync' to ignore certain pattern files. Yes, I can then preserve that FS hierarchy when i burn the image but i need to format into an image that can be burnt first -- mkisofs, and then cdrecord to do the burning. As for 'no tools', well as I said, 'fwbackups' keeps track of "what was backed up and when and where" in terms of its own datasets. perhaps it's more suited a using with stacking the datasets in the cloud over SSH. Normally 'fwbackups' creates a 'TAR file, optionally compressing it, but it can be told to simply copy the file tree (even to a remote host). The copy mode isn't as flexible as using 'rsync' though. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Anton, et al -- ...and then Anton Aylward said... % % On 08/05/2020 17:35, Carlos E. R. wrote: % > The method I know is creating the images on hard disk, and later transferring % > those to the media. Needs having huge free space. Frankly, I much prefer direct ... % % Firstly the 'image' needn't be huge. Its one reason I have limited size ... % % Yes, I can then preserve that FS hierarchy when i burn the image but i need to % format into an image that can be burnt first -- mkisofs, and then cdrecord to do % the burning. [snip] Erm, can't you just have mkisofs write to stdout and pipe that into cdrecord for burning without the interim image? HANW :-D -- David T-G See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/email/ See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/tofu.txt -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/05/2020 06.39, David T-G wrote:
Anton, et al --
...and then Anton Aylward said... % % On 08/05/2020 17:35, Carlos E. R. wrote: % > The method I know is creating the images on hard disk, and later transferring % > those to the media. Needs having huge free space. Frankly, I much prefer direct ... % % Firstly the 'image' needn't be huge. Its one reason I have limited size ... % % Yes, I can then preserve that FS hierarchy when i burn the image but i need to % format into an image that can be burnt first -- mkisofs, and then cdrecord to do % the burning. [snip]
Erm, can't you just have mkisofs write to stdout and pipe that into cdrecord for burning without the interim image?
Yes, that's what k3b does, for instance. The image is created on the fly and burnt. Or rather can, because actually creating an image on disk allows to verify (compare) after burning. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 08/05/2020 16:05, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 08/05/2020 21.44, Per Jessen wrote:
Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <> [05-08-20 14:11]: [...]
LOL. Too complicated.
As I've commented before, it's organized that way for backup management. Some of those will see no variation from month to month and all have content that will fit on a 5G DVD using 'cdrecord' or 'k3b'
Use instead a Blue Ray recorder, and write 25/50/100 HB in one go :-D
Or wait till somebody creates at last a good backup software that can write spanning several DVDs on the go. For Linux.
it is called "dar" and is quite good and maintained and available for openSUSE
I was about to say 'tar', but 'dar' sounds good too.
Not even close.
Why not? tar does volume-by-volume backup to tape - it doesn't seem unreasonable it could be done to DVD too ? A limited media is a limited media.
First: what do you mean by 'volume-by-volume'? As I understand it, TAR does a file system walk, unless yu are using the GNU version and doing things like specific file update/delete TAR either streams to an output file or, GNU Tar treats the archive as a seek-able r/w file. You can't simply stream to a DVD. They don't work that way. You have to specifically prepare the image to burn. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Le 09/05/2020 à 04:34, Anton Aylward a écrit :
You can't simply stream to a DVD. They don't work that way. You have to specifically prepare the image to burn.
yes, you can, there is a virtual hard disk dvd file system (don't remember the exact name) but it's unpractical, unreliable and very slow jdd -- http://dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Anton Aylward wrote:
On 08/05/2020 16:05, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 08/05/2020 21.44, Per Jessen wrote:
Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <> [05-08-20 14:11]: [...]
LOL. Too complicated.
> > As I've commented before, it's organized that way for backup > management. Some of those will see no variation from month to > month and all have content that will fit on a 5G DVD using > 'cdrecord' or 'k3b'
Use instead a Blue Ray recorder, and write 25/50/100 HB in one go :-D
Or wait till somebody creates at last a good backup software that can write spanning several DVDs on the go. For Linux.
it is called "dar" and is quite good and maintained and available for openSUSE
I was about to say 'tar', but 'dar' sounds good too.
Not even close.
Why not? tar does volume-by-volume backup to tape - it doesn't seem unreasonable it could be done to DVD too ? A limited media is a limited media.
First: what do you mean by 'volume-by-volume'?
A tape volume. an LTOx cartridge. (may be old-timer IBM speak, dunno - "disk volumes", "tape volumes").
TAR either streams to an output file or, GNU Tar treats the archive as a seek-able r/w file.
If you tar to a streaming device, perhaps in a tape-loader, every now and then the cartridge is full and swapped for a new cartridge.
You can't simply stream to a DVD. They don't work that way. You have to specifically prepare the image to burn.
Ah yes, true - I would still expect tar could be tweaked to write chunks of the right size, but maybe that is what 'dar' does better. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (20.9°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - virtual servers, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Sat, 09 May 2020 10:50:06 +0200 Per Jessen <per@computer.org> wrote:
Anton Aylward wrote:
On 08/05/2020 16:05, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 08/05/2020 21.44, Per Jessen wrote:
Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <> [05-08-20 14:11]: [...]
> LOL. Too complicated. > >> >> As I've commented before, it's organized that way for backup >> management. Some of those will see no variation from month to >> month and all have content that will fit on a 5G DVD using >> 'cdrecord' or 'k3b' > > Use instead a Blue Ray recorder, and write 25/50/100 HB in one > go :-D > > Or wait till somebody creates at last a good backup software > that can write spanning several DVDs on the go. For Linux.
it is called "dar" and is quite good and maintained and available for openSUSE
I was about to say 'tar', but 'dar' sounds good too.
Not even close.
Why not? tar does volume-by-volume backup to tape - it doesn't seem unreasonable it could be done to DVD too ? A limited media is a limited media.
First: what do you mean by 'volume-by-volume'?
A tape volume. an LTOx cartridge. (may be old-timer IBM speak, dunno - "disk volumes", "tape volumes").
TAR either streams to an output file or, GNU Tar treats the archive as a seek-able r/w file.
If you tar to a streaming device, perhaps in a tape-loader, every now and then the cartridge is full and swapped for a new cartridge.
You can't simply stream to a DVD. They don't work that way. You have to specifically prepare the image to burn.
Ah yes, true - I would still expect tar could be tweaked to write chunks of the right size, but maybe that is what 'dar' does better.
See https://www.gnu.org/software/tar/manual/tar.html#SEC164 It explains how tar creates multi-volume archives (each volume is an independent tar file) and how you can specify a script to be run with each change of volume. So that could be used to prepare the image and burn it. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Dave Howorth wrote:
On Sat, 09 May 2020 10:50:06 +0200 Per Jessen <per@computer.org> wrote:
Ah yes, true - I would still expect tar could be tweaked to write chunks of the right size, but maybe that is what 'dar' does better.
See https://www.gnu.org/software/tar/manual/tar.html#SEC164
It explains how tar creates multi-volume archives (each volume is an independent tar file) and how you can specify a script to be run with each change of volume. So that could be used to prepare the image and burn it.
Thanks for finding that - it was lurking in the back of my mind, I'm sure :-) -- Per Jessen, Zürich (24.4°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - free dynamic DNS, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/05/2020 10.50, Per Jessen wrote:
Anton Aylward wrote:
You can't simply stream to a DVD. They don't work that way. You have to specifically prepare the image to burn.
Ah yes, true - I would still expect tar could be tweaked to write chunks of the right size, but maybe that is what 'dar' does better.
Perhaps. There are problems, though. For example, what is the right size? It is not trivial. When one writes to DVD using a tool such as k3b, the program knows the size - dar doesn't. And compared to the tool I used in 1985, I miss features: PC tools backup could repair "small" errors on the backup media, using a technique similar to what par2 does. Forward error recovery. Another problem is compression. Most of the algorithms used in Linux, can not recover the backup if there is one single byte error (the venerable tgz). PC tools backup could, it never failed on me. And it is software of 1985! -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [05-08-20 15:56]:
On 08/05/2020 21.44, Per Jessen wrote:
Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <> [05-08-20 14:11]: [...]
LOL. Too complicated.
As I've commented before, it's organized that way for backup management. Some of those will see no variation from month to month and all have content that will fit on a 5G DVD using 'cdrecord' or 'k3b'
Use instead a Blue Ray recorder, and write 25/50/100 HB in one go :-D
Or wait till somebody creates at last a good backup software that can write spanning several DVDs on the go. For Linux.
it is called "dar" and is quite good and maintained and available for openSUSE
I was about to say 'tar', but 'dar' sounds good too.
Not even close.
I'm thinking of the wonderful PCBackup of MsDOS times. I have seen nothing close to it in Linux. AKA Central Point Backup.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PC_Tools_(software)>
I want A GUI tool that selects what to backup according to easy to create profiles or manual selection, and writes it automatically to DVD or BlueRay (or other media), requesting the next disc when needed, with compression, encryption, and forward error recovery all included.
you want an app written specifically for you and your needs but everything is available for you to craft *exactly* that which you desire, except the one thing you lack, motivation. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 08/05/2020 23.06, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [05-08-20 15:56]:
On 08/05/2020 21.44, Per Jessen wrote:
Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <> [05-08-20 14:11]: [...]
LOL. Too complicated.
As I've commented before, it's organized that way for backup management. Some of those will see no variation from month to month and all have content that will fit on a 5G DVD using 'cdrecord' or 'k3b'
Use instead a Blue Ray recorder, and write 25/50/100 HB in one go :-D
Or wait till somebody creates at last a good backup software that can write spanning several DVDs on the go. For Linux.
it is called "dar" and is quite good and maintained and available for openSUSE
I was about to say 'tar', but 'dar' sounds good too.
Not even close.
I'm thinking of the wonderful PCBackup of MsDOS times. I have seen nothing close to it in Linux. AKA Central Point Backup.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PC_Tools_(software)>
I want A GUI tool that selects what to backup according to easy to create profiles or manual selection, and writes it automatically to DVD or BlueRay (or other media), requesting the next disc when needed, with compression, encryption, and forward error recovery all included.
you want an app written specifically for you and your needs
but everything is available for you to craft *exactly* that which you desire, except the one thing you lack, motivation.
Those tools exist in Windows. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [05-08-20 17:52]:
On 08/05/2020 23.06, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [05-08-20 15:56]:
On 08/05/2020 21.44, Per Jessen wrote:
Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <> [05-08-20 14:11]: [...]
LOL. Too complicated.
> > As I've commented before, it's organized that way for backup > management. Some of those will see no variation from month to month > and all have content that will fit on a 5G DVD using 'cdrecord' or > 'k3b'
Use instead a Blue Ray recorder, and write 25/50/100 HB in one go :-D
Or wait till somebody creates at last a good backup software that can write spanning several DVDs on the go. For Linux.
it is called "dar" and is quite good and maintained and available for openSUSE
I was about to say 'tar', but 'dar' sounds good too.
Not even close.
I'm thinking of the wonderful PCBackup of MsDOS times. I have seen nothing close to it in Linux. AKA Central Point Backup.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PC_Tools_(software)>
I want A GUI tool that selects what to backup according to easy to create profiles or manual selection, and writes it automatically to DVD or BlueRay (or other media), requesting the next disc when needed, with compression, encryption, and forward error recovery all included.
you want an app written specifically for you and your needs
but everything is available for you to craft *exactly* that which you desire, except the one thing you lack, motivation.
Those tools exist in Windows.
is that a solution suitable for you or just more words w/o meaning? fwiw: the "tools" also exist in linux, emphasis on the plural of tool. Just no motivation. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 08/05/2020 18:22, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [05-08-20 17:52]:
On 08/05/2020 23.06, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [05-08-20 15:56]:
On 08/05/2020 21.44, Per Jessen wrote:
Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <> [05-08-20 14:11]: [...]
> LOL. Too complicated. > >> >> As I've commented before, it's organized that way for backup >> management. Some of those will see no variation from month to month >> and all have content that will fit on a 5G DVD using 'cdrecord' or >> 'k3b' > > Use instead a Blue Ray recorder, and write 25/50/100 HB in one go :-D > > Or wait till somebody creates at last a good backup software that can > write spanning several DVDs on the go. For Linux.
it is called "dar" and is quite good and maintained and available for openSUSE
I was about to say 'tar', but 'dar' sounds good too.
Not even close.
I'm thinking of the wonderful PCBackup of MsDOS times. I have seen nothing close to it in Linux. AKA Central Point Backup.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PC_Tools_(software)>
I want A GUI tool that selects what to backup according to easy to create profiles or manual selection, and writes it automatically to DVD or BlueRay (or other media), requesting the next disc when needed, with compression, encryption, and forward error recovery all included.
you want an app written specifically for you and your needs
but everything is available for you to craft *exactly* that which you desire, except the one thing you lack, motivation.
Those tools exist in Windows.
is that a solution suitable for you or just more words w/o meaning?
fwiw: the "tools" also exist in linux, emphasis on the plural of tool. Just no motivation.
There are tools such as 'fwbackups' that do, superficially, what Carlos is asking, but I suspect he will say that 'fwbackups' isn't what he wants, because really he wants an implementation of the PC_Tools for Linux. ____ ___ ____ _ _ __/\__/ ___|_ _/ ___| | | |_/\__ \ /\___ \| | | _| |_| \ / /_ _\ ___) | | |_| | _ /_ _\ \/ |____/___\____|_| |_| \/ When will people learn that Linux is not MS-DOS and nighter is it Windows. The real power of Linux, ex UNIX, comes from the command line, from scripting. Even if you are scripting a GUI, as is the case for 'fwbackups', it is hackable. All those things for MS-DOS & Windows were compiled; the user could not get in and hack them for i18n. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/05/2020 05.26, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 08/05/2020 18:22, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [05-08-20 17:52]:
On 08/05/2020 23.06, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [05-08-20 15:56]:
On 08/05/2020 21.44, Per Jessen wrote:
Patrick Shanahan wrote:
> * Carlos E. R. <> [05-08-20 14:11]: > [...] > >> LOL. Too complicated. >> >>> >>> As I've commented before, it's organized that way for backup >>> management. Some of those will see no variation from month to month >>> and all have content that will fit on a 5G DVD using 'cdrecord' or >>> 'k3b' >> >> Use instead a Blue Ray recorder, and write 25/50/100 HB in one go :-D >> >> Or wait till somebody creates at last a good backup software that can >> write spanning several DVDs on the go. For Linux. > > it is called "dar" and is quite good and maintained and available for > openSUSE
I was about to say 'tar', but 'dar' sounds good too.
Not even close.
I'm thinking of the wonderful PCBackup of MsDOS times. I have seen nothing close to it in Linux. AKA Central Point Backup.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PC_Tools_(software)>
I want A GUI tool that selects what to backup according to easy to create profiles or manual selection, and writes it automatically to DVD or BlueRay (or other media), requesting the next disc when needed, with compression, encryption, and forward error recovery all included.
you want an app written specifically for you and your needs
but everything is available for you to craft *exactly* that which you desire, except the one thing you lack, motivation.
Those tools exist in Windows.
is that a solution suitable for you or just more words w/o meaning?
fwiw: the "tools" also exist in linux, emphasis on the plural of tool. Just no motivation.
There are tools such as 'fwbackups' that do, superficially, what Carlos is asking, but I suspect he will say that 'fwbackups' isn't what he wants, because really he wants an implementation of the PC_Tools for Linux.
That would be wonderful. (fwbackups page says it saves to another machine over the network, so it doesn't do even close to what I want).
____ ___ ____ _ _ __/\__/ ___|_ _/ ___| | | |_/\__ \ /\___ \| | | _| |_| \ / /_ _\ ___) | | |_| | _ /_ _\ \/ |____/___\____|_| |_| \/
When will people learn that Linux is not MS-DOS and nighter is it Windows. The real power of Linux, ex UNIX, comes from the command line, from scripting. Even if you are scripting a GUI, as is the case for 'fwbackups', it is hackable. All those things for MS-DOS & Windows were compiled; the user could not get in and hack them for i18n.
I don't know of anything in Linux that can: backup a large directory tree to media such as DVD that doesn't fit in a single DVD; that does compression on the fly; that implements forward error recovery (think of par2). And that it keeps a database. Of course, does incremental backups too. (hint: par2 has no opensuse package. It did). And all that integrated in a single tool. For example, it there is one scratch on the DVD, the softare must be able to recover the full backup set. At worst, a single file would be damaged. That Linux is not Windows is just an excuse. I don't accept it as a valid excuse. For example, the RAR payware archiver would fit the description, for an archiver. It can span media, it has error recovery. I would use it, except that it does not fully support Linux permission/attribute set. How do I backup currently? Well I use rsync to another hard disk, formatted with btrfs and compression, plus encryption. An error would damage a single file (I hope), it is lightly compressed, it allows easy access of any lost file, and it is incremental. Occasionally, I backup my photos to blueray. Or my documents. Problem: my old method of encrypting DVDs is broken. There is an stalled bugzilla. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Carlos E. R. wrote:
I don't know of anything in Linux that can:
backup a large directory tree to media such as DVD that doesn't fit in a single DVD; that does compression on the fly; that implements forward error recovery (think of par2). And that it keeps a database. Of course, does incremental backups too.
Time to scratch that itch. :-) -- Per Jessen, Zürich (26.0°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - your free DNS host, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/05/2020 15.38, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
I don't know of anything in Linux that can:
backup a large directory tree to media such as DVD that doesn't fit in a single DVD; that does compression on the fly; that implements forward error recovery (think of par2). And that it keeps a database. Of course, does incremental backups too.
Time to scratch that itch. :-)
That would be a huge task for me. I can't take it. Including a year or more of investigation. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 09/05/2020 15.38, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
I don't know of anything in Linux that can:
backup a large directory tree to media such as DVD that doesn't fit in a single DVD; that does compression on the fly; that implements forward error recovery (think of par2). And that it keeps a database. Of course, does incremental backups too.
Time to scratch that itch. :-)
That would be a huge task for me. I can't take it. Including a year or more of investigation.
Have you got anything better to do? If it itches, scratch it. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (20.1°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - your free DNS host, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/05/2020 21.39, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 09/05/2020 15.38, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
I don't know of anything in Linux that can:
backup a large directory tree to media such as DVD that doesn't fit in a single DVD; that does compression on the fly; that implements forward error recovery (think of par2). And that it keeps a database. Of course, does incremental backups too.
Time to scratch that itch. :-)
That would be a huge task for me. I can't take it. Including a year or more of investigation.
Have you got anything better to do? If it itches, scratch it.
I have better things to do, and I would not end it in the foreseeable future, because it is not in my skill set. I know nothing about compression or forward error recovery or dvd handling. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 09/05/2020 21.39, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 09/05/2020 15.38, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
I don't know of anything in Linux that can:
backup a large directory tree to media such as DVD that doesn't fit in a single DVD; that does compression on the fly; that implements forward error recovery (think of par2). And that it keeps a database. Of course, does incremental backups too.
Time to scratch that itch. :-)
That would be a huge task for me. I can't take it. Including a year or more of investigation.
Have you got anything better to do? If it itches, scratch it.
I have better things to do, and I would not end it in the foreseeable future, because it is not in my skill set. I know nothing about compression or forward error recovery or dvd handling.
Well, I'll accept all of that of course, but when nobody else seems to be lacking this functionality, you have to conclude one of two: a) it isn't actually necessary b) you are the only one to realise it, so go educate yourself and do it. Pretty much what Linus did, you have a great role model to follow. If he had gone with option (a), where we would be now. In comparison to 1991, all of the information is at your fingertips too. If it itches, scratch it. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (19.3°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - dedicated server rental in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/05/2020 22.20, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 09/05/2020 21.39, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 09/05/2020 15.38, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
I don't know of anything in Linux that can:
backup a large directory tree to media such as DVD that doesn't fit in a single DVD; that does compression on the fly; that implements forward error recovery (think of par2). And that it keeps a database. Of course, does incremental backups too.
Time to scratch that itch. :-)
That would be a huge task for me. I can't take it. Including a year or more of investigation.
Have you got anything better to do? If it itches, scratch it.
I have better things to do, and I would not end it in the foreseeable future, because it is not in my skill set. I know nothing about compression or forward error recovery or dvd handling.
Well, I'll accept all of that of course, but when nobody else seems to be lacking this functionality, you have to conclude one of two:
a) it isn't actually necessary b) you are the only one to realise it, so go educate yourself and do it.
Well, it exists in Windows. If professionals in Linux use hugely expensive tapes as you do, and others use hard disks, it is not going to be.
Pretty much what Linus did, you have a great role model to follow. If he had gone with option (a), where we would be now. In comparison to 1991, all of the information is at your fingertips too.
If it itches, scratch it.
Not at my age. He did have the skill set, I don't. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [05-09-20 16:41]:
On 09/05/2020 22.20, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 09/05/2020 21.39, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 09/05/2020 15.38, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
> I don't know of anything in Linux that can: > > backup a large directory tree to media such as DVD that doesn't > fit in a single DVD; that does compression on the fly; that > implements forward error recovery (think of par2). And that it > keeps a database. Of course, does incremental backups too.
Time to scratch that itch. :-)
That would be a huge task for me. I can't take it. Including a year or more of investigation.
Have you got anything better to do? If it itches, scratch it.
I have better things to do, and I would not end it in the foreseeable future, because it is not in my skill set. I know nothing about compression or forward error recovery or dvd handling.
Well, I'll accept all of that of course, but when nobody else seems to be lacking this functionality, you have to conclude one of two:
a) it isn't actually necessary b) you are the only one to realise it, so go educate yourself and do it.
Well, it exists in Windows.
If professionals in Linux use hugely expensive tapes as you do, and others use hard disks, it is not going to be.
Pretty much what Linus did, you have a great role model to follow. If he had gone with option (a), where we would be now. In comparison to 1991, all of the information is at your fingertips too.
If it itches, scratch it.
Not at my age. He did have the skill set, I don't.
then you have stated the option. run windoz. you have not convinced anyone else to accumulate a work-flow that matches what you desire and you don't want to either. run windoz or let it go :) -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Le 09/05/2020 à 22:59, Patrick Shanahan a écrit :
then you have stated the option. run windoz.
may be wine? jdd -- http://dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/05/2020 23.00, jdd@dodin.org wrote:
Le 09/05/2020 à 22:59, Patrick Shanahan a écrit :
then you have stated the option. run windoz.
may be wine?
You forget that they are ignorant of Linux permissions and attributes. I do use rar some times. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Le 08/05/2020 à 21:52, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
I want A GUI tool that selects what to backup according to easy to create profiles or manual selection,
rsync have guis. I tried them but reverted to CLI and writes it automatically to DVD
or BlueRay (or other media), requesting the next disc when needed, with compression, encryption, and forward error recovery all included.
dvd is an obsolete medium. You can (and should) keep the one you have, but don't create new anymore. Bluray is a dead end for this use. I used it for years, but bluray readers where always expensive and the disk is expensive also. What works for backup now is hard drive, with 5To 2.5" HDD under the 100€ level. I have presently three copies of multimedia archives with 5Tb disks and 1Tb ones for non multimedia ones But you may check if you are *archiving* or making a real backup. I backup have to be on a bootable support. Best is usb3 pen (of even better usb3 ssd), to allow fast system recovery. (I don't care to have one, in case of break I prefer to build a brand new system) archives are rarely written files, mostly only read ones, like photo or video collection. 4Tb on dvd??? wait... I did it 5 years ago when my collection was much lower (no HD then) and most important parts are uploaded online I tried sd cards, but do not trust them... jdd -- http://dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 08/05/2020 14:35, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [05-08-20 14:11]: [...]
LOL. Too complicated.
As I've commented before, it's organized that way for backup management. Some of those will see no variation from month to month and all have content that will fit on a 5G DVD using 'cdrecord' or 'k3b'
Use instead a Blue Ray recorder, and write 25/50/100 HB in one go :-D
Or wait till somebody creates at last a good backup software that can write spanning several DVDs on the go. For Linux.
it is called "dar" and is quite good and maintained and available for openSUSE
also available dargui which I have compiled on my server but not for any current system.
anton@main:~> dargui Gtk-Message: Failed to load module "canberra-gtk-module" Gtk-Message: Failed to load module "canberra-gtk-module" atd daemon not running I also get a pop-up about compatibility of thjs with 'dar'. 'atd' is for scheduling jobs. I don't see that in my set of things started by systemd Should it be there? -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
* Anton Aylward <opensuse@antonaylward.com> [05-08-20 16:01]:
On 08/05/2020 14:35, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [05-08-20 14:11]: [...]
LOL. Too complicated.
As I've commented before, it's organized that way for backup management. Some of those will see no variation from month to month and all have content that will fit on a 5G DVD using 'cdrecord' or 'k3b'
Use instead a Blue Ray recorder, and write 25/50/100 HB in one go :-D
Or wait till somebody creates at last a good backup software that can write spanning several DVDs on the go. For Linux.
it is called "dar" and is quite good and maintained and available for openSUSE
also available dargui which I have compiled on my server but not for any current system.
anton@main:~> dargui Gtk-Message: Failed to load module "canberra-gtk-module" Gtk-Message: Failed to load module "canberra-gtk-module" atd daemon not running
I also get a pop-up about compatibility of thjs with 'dar'.
'atd' is for scheduling jobs. I don't see that in my set of things started by systemd Should it be there?
not a systemd requirement. used to be default install, one of the many small utilities ... and I still use it on occasion. the gui is aparently not actively maintained, but still works-for-me. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Anton, et al -- ...and then Anton Aylward said... % ... % 'atd' is for scheduling jobs. Probably your backups... % I don't see that in my set of things started by systemd % Should it be there? I've wondered that myself ... I am running LEAP 15.1 Live on a stick with some packages added, and it's apparently jpo:~ # systemctl status atd.service ? atd.service - Deferred execution scheduler Loaded: loaded (/usr/lib/systemd/system/atd.service; enabled; vendor preset: disabled) Active: active (running) since Sun 2020-04-19 11:43:57 UTC; 2 weeks 5 days ago Main PID: 29306 (atd) Tasks: 1 CGroup: /system.slice/atd.service +-29306 /usr/sbin/atd -f even running, but I can't get an at job to run. Bleah :-( Any ideas? HANW :-D -- David T-G See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/email/ See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/tofu.txt -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/05/2020 03.57, David T-G wrote:
even running, but I can't get an at job to run. Bleah :-( Any ideas?
Works here. Telcontar:~ # at now + 1 minute warning: commands will be executed using /bin/sh at> /usr/local/sbin/beep at> <EOT> job 21 at Sat May 9 12:37:00 2020 Telcontar:~ # -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 08/05/2020 14:06, Carlos E. R. wrote:
I can understand mounting the home directory, but what else? My 'home' is not that large lvdisplay /dev/vgmain/vHome tells me it's just 30G and DF tells me I'm using just 8G of it. I suspect a lot of that are the config files Most of personal storage is in other partitions:
/home/anton/Downloads /home/anton/Mail /home/anton/MyDocuments /home/anton/PDF /home/anton/Media /home/anton/MyMovies /home/anton/MyMovies/AVI /home/anton/MyMovies/M4Vb /home/anton/MyMusic /home/anton/Photographs /home/anton/Photographs/ByYear/2014 /home/anton/Photographs/ByYear/2017 /home/anton/Photographs/ByYear/2018 /home/anton/Photographs/ByYear/2019 /home/anton/Photographs/ByYear/2020
LOL. Too complicated.
No, it's much simpler that way. I'm sorry but that doesn't show the hierarchy. It doesn't show many of the subdirectories (e.g. music genres, movie genres) It doesn't show documents that are letters and the categories of 'who to' Dumping the whole thing makes this TL;DR, but the above tries to illustrate it. For example all photos are filed either by project or by date. But this sort of brad categorization and division makes things manageable So what do you do when it some to organizing and categorizing ?? -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday, 2020-05-08 at 14:47 -0400, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 08/05/2020 14:06, Carlos E. R. wrote:
I can understand mounting the home directory, but what else? My 'home' is not that large lvdisplay /dev/vgmain/vHome tells me it's just 30G and DF tells me I'm using just 8G of it. I suspect a lot of that are the config files Most of personal storage is in other partitions:
/home/anton/Downloads /home/anton/Mail /home/anton/MyDocuments /home/anton/PDF /home/anton/Media /home/anton/MyMovies /home/anton/MyMovies/AVI /home/anton/MyMovies/M4Vb /home/anton/MyMusic /home/anton/Photographs /home/anton/Photographs/ByYear/2014 /home/anton/Photographs/ByYear/2017 /home/anton/Photographs/ByYear/2018 /home/anton/Photographs/ByYear/2019 /home/anton/Photographs/ByYear/2020
LOL. Too complicated.
No, it's much simpler that way. I'm sorry but that doesn't show the hierarchy. It doesn't show many of the subdirectories (e.g. music genres, movie genres) It doesn't show documents that are letters and the categories of 'who to' Dumping the whole thing makes this TL;DR, but the above tries to illustrate it.
For example all photos are filed either by project or by date.
But this sort of brad categorization and division makes things manageable
So what do you do when it some to organizing and categorizing ??
Oh, it is organized, of course. But basically a single partition. Movies on a different disk, because of size. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHoEARECADoWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXrWszBwccm9iaW4ubGlz dGFzQHRlbGVmb25pY2EubmV0AAoJELUzGBxtjUfV6vMAmgOVSx8EAEatQsC0vBjn TLsdUW2tAJsHOtszBO5pTxOeGT/kTNXY3Mml8Q== =6bkB -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On 08/05/2020 15:02, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Oh, it is organized, of course. But basically a single partition. Movies on a different disk, because of size.
Well that's my motivation. Size. To fit on a DVD (not least of all because I have a few hundred blanks still) Please don't go on about blue-ray. I'd rather use incremental (or is it differential) rsync to a USB stick. https://www.jveweb.net/en/archives/2011/02/using-rsync-and-cron-to-automate-... -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 08/05/2020 23.32, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 08/05/2020 15:02, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Oh, it is organized, of course. But basically a single partition. Movies on a different disk, because of size.
Well that's my motivation. Size. To fit on a DVD (not least of all because I have a few hundred blanks still)
Please don't go on about blue-ray.
Why not? I can not backup a 4 TB hard disk to DVDs. The disks I use are archival quality. I would use tape if I could afford it. As it is, I have to backup to another HD. Currently using compressed btrfs.
I'd rather use incremental (or is it differential) rsync to a USB stick. https://www.jveweb.net/en/archives/2011/02/using-rsync-and-cron-to-automate-...
-- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On Fri, 8 May 2020 23:40:58 +0200 "Carlos E. R." <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
On 08/05/2020 23.32, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 08/05/2020 15:02, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Oh, it is organized, of course. But basically a single partition. Movies on a different disk, because of size.
Well that's my motivation. Size. To fit on a DVD (not least of all because I have a few hundred blanks still)
Please don't go on about blue-ray.
Why not? I can not backup a 4 TB hard disk to DVDs. The disks I use are archival quality. I would use tape if I could afford it. As it is, I have to backup to another HD. Currently using compressed btrfs.
Because Anton has 'a few hundred' DVDs and [presumably] doesn't have a Blu-Ray recorder or any disks to put in it? Is that so difficult to understand? Your situation may be different (YSMBD) but is irrelevant. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 08/05/2020 17:47, Dave Howorth wrote:
On Fri, 8 May 2020 23:40:58 +0200 "Carlos E. R." <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
On 08/05/2020 23.32, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 08/05/2020 15:02, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Oh, it is organized, of course. But basically a single partition. Movies on a different disk, because of size.
Well that's my motivation. Size. To fit on a DVD (not least of all because I have a few hundred blanks still)
Please don't go on about blue-ray.
Why not? I can not backup a 4 TB hard disk to DVDs. The disks I use are archival quality. I would use tape if I could afford it. As it is, I have to backup to another HD. Currently using compressed btrfs.
Because Anton has 'a few hundred' DVDs and [presumably] doesn't have a Blu-Ray recorder or any disks to put in it? Is that so difficult to understand?
Your situation may be different (YSMBD) but is irrelevant.
More to the point I CAN back up an enormous amount using my method, just not onto 'one platter'. But so what? I have 50G worth of free cloud that I'm not using; I could use a script I have to do rsync-over-ssh with incremental to that. I have no limit on my 'net use, just on bandwidth :-/ Indeed, YSMBD but it is irrelevant. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Anton, et al -- ...and then Anton Aylward said... % ... % I have 50G worth of free cloud that I'm not using; I could use a script I have to % do rsync-over-ssh with incremental to that. I have no limit on my 'net use, just % on bandwidth :-/ [snip] Oooh! What cloud is that? I use a few different cloud providers and would love to write to them directly... TIA & HANW :-D -- David T-G See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/email/ See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/tofu.txt -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, 5 May 2020 09:23:16 -0400 James Knott <james.knott@jknott.net> wrote:
When is this coming to openSuSE?
I just love this assertion: "Prior to systemd every system and resource was managed by its own tool, which was clumsy and inefficient. Now? Controlling and managing systems on Linux is incredibly easy." ROFL :) :) CF: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_philosophy 'The Unix philosophy, originated by Ken Thompson, is a set of cultural norms and philosophical approaches to minimalist, modular software development. It is based on the experience of leading developers of the Unix operating system. Early Unix developers were important in bringing the concepts of modularity and reusability into software engineering practice, spawning a "software tools" movement. Over time, the leading developers of Unix (and programs that ran on it) established a set of cultural norms for developing software; these norms became as important and influential as the technology of Unix itself; this has been termed the "Unix philosophy." 'The Unix philosophy emphasizes building simple, short, clear, modular, and extensible code that can be easily maintained and repurposed by developers other than its creators. The Unix philosophy favors composability as opposed to monolithic design. ' I've a lot of respect for Lennart, but I really don't want systemd-homed on my systems! (at least not until it's been around for a decade or so) Just my 2p -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, 5 May 2020 15:58:13 +0100 Dave Howorth <dave@howorth.org.uk> wrote:
I've a lot of respect for Lennart, but I really don't want systemd-homed on my systems! (at least not until it's been around for a decade or so)
Actually I see from the systemd-245 release notes that it's optional: * A small new service systemd-homed.service has been added, that MAY BE used to securely manage home directories with built-in encryption. (my emphasis) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 05-05-2020 17:07, Dave Howorth wrote:
On Tue, 5 May 2020 15:58:13 +0100 Dave Howorth <dave@howorth.org.uk> wrote:
I've a lot of respect for Lennart, but I really don't want systemd-homed on my systems! (at least not until it's been around for a decade or so) Actually I see from the systemd-245 release notes that it's optional:
* A small new service systemd-homed.service has been added, that MAY BE used to securely manage home directories with built-in encryption.
(my emphasis)
How about shared directories between several users? The article also mention portable directories, what is the need if you work on your local computers with or without shared (networked) services only? With online connection to my external work storage, I see no need for it. Some, might use it and like others stated: I will wait a decade or so before I might deploy it. I would not put all my trust in Leannart Poettering. Honestly, I still have that nagging idea that he has a different (hidden) agenda. Maybe because his - in my view - rather arrogant way he communicated initially. Encryption for personal directories? Maybe only for documents "for my eyes only". My experience with encrypted stuff is that after some time, it's hard to find a module which serves the proper crypto algorithm. And I am not even talking yet about the most important part: loss of key(s). The latter is handled properly in responsible businesses, but SOHO users may find it hard to find a functional and secure solution without to much of a cost burden and can last a long time. --- Frans. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2020-05-05 17:07, Dave Howorth wrote:
On Tue, 5 May 2020 15:58:13 +0100 Dave Howorth <dave@howorth.org.uk> wrote:
I've a lot of respect for Lennart, but I really don't want systemd-homed on my systems! (at least not until it's been around for a decade or so)
Actually I see from the systemd-245 release notes that it's optional:
* A small new service systemd-homed.service has been added, that MAY BE used to securely manage home directories with built-in encryption.
(my emphasis)
"Optional" Sounds like the original Linux-mantra: "several ways to get to the desired objective" But then again, "optional" might also means "You do not have to install this distro". No improvement without change. But not every change leads to improvement. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Tuesday, 5 May 2020 14:23:16 BST James Knott wrote:
When is this coming to openSuSE?
its another optional feature, at a guess it'll be your choice to implement it. -- opensuse:tumbleweed:20200502 Qt: 5.14.1 KDE Frameworks: 5.69.0 - KDE Plasma: 5.18.4 - kwin 5.18.4 kmail2 5.14.0 (20.04.0) - akonadiserver 5.14.0 (20.04.0) - Kernel: 5.6.8-1-default - xf86-video-nouveau: 1.0.15 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 05/05/2020 08:23 AM, James Knott wrote:
When is this coming to openSuSE?
They damn sure better fix the SSH problem as 9/10 hosts I interact with I do from konsole via ssh. If they can't fix the ssh problem, then it is a complete no-go. -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 05/07/2020 09:48 PM, David C. Rankin wrote:
On 05/05/2020 08:23 AM, James Knott wrote:
When is this coming to openSuSE?
They damn sure better fix the SSH problem as 9/10 hosts I interact with I do from konsole via ssh. If they can't fix the ssh problem, then it is a complete no-go.
Whew.... It's OPTIONAL. If you don't start homed -- nothing changes (don't enable by default) systemd-homed https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Systemd-homed -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 05/08/2020 12:55 AM, David C. Rankin wrote:
On 05/07/2020 09:48 PM, David C. Rankin wrote:
On 05/05/2020 08:23 AM, James Knott wrote:
When is this coming to openSuSE?
They damn sure better fix the SSH problem as 9/10 hosts I interact with I do from konsole via ssh. If they can't fix the ssh problem, then it is a complete no-go.
Whew.... It's OPTIONAL. If you don't start homed -- nothing changes (don't enable by default)
systemd-homed https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Systemd-homed
But this could be a real problem for existing setups: Note that users managed by systemd-homed always have a matching group associated with the same name as well as a GID matching the UID of the user. Thus, *configuring the GID separately is not permitted*. -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, 8 May 2020 01:02:58 -0500 "David C. Rankin" <drankinatty@suddenlinkmail.com> wrote:
Whew.... It's OPTIONAL. If you don't start homed -- nothing changes (don't enable by default)
systemd-homed https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Systemd-homed
But this could be a real problem for existing setups:
Note that users managed by systemd-homed always have a matching group associated with the same name as well as a GID matching the UID of the user. Thus, *configuring the GID separately is not permitted*.
Just looking at that arch page set me thinking. How is the UID chosen and made unique? Portably? That is, if I create two identical systems and create a user called Alice on the first system and a user called Bob on the second system, then AFAICT Alice and Bob will be given the same UID. What if I then port Bob's home directory to the first system? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2020-05-08 05:10 AM, Dave Howorth wrote:
Just looking at that arch page set me thinking. How is the UID chosen and made unique? Portably? That is, if I create two identical systems and create a user called Alice on the first system and a user called Bob on the second system, then AFAICT Alice and Bob will be given the same UID. What if I then port Bob's home directory to the first system?
My understanding is that the UID is chosen sequentially. This means that you would have the same UID assigned to different people on different systems. When you move a partition, there is no way to tell which person it belongs to. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday, 2020-05-08 at 07:05 -0400, James Knott wrote:
On 2020-05-08 05:10 AM, Dave Howorth wrote:
Just looking at that arch page set me thinking. How is the UID chosen and made unique? Portably? That is, if I create two identical systems and create a user called Alice on the first system and a user called Bob on the second system, then AFAICT Alice and Bob will be given the same UID. What if I then port Bob's home directory to the first system?
My understanding is that the UID is chosen sequentially. This means that you would have the same UID assigned to different people on different systems. When you move a partition, there is no way to tell which person it belongs to.
Yes, but the "homed" thing changes all that. How it manages, I do not know. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHoEARECADoWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXrVAfBwccm9iaW4ubGlz dGFzQHRlbGVmb25pY2EubmV0AAoJELUzGBxtjUfVAfwAn3hOdIQiC7eqPwBc6F02 84PJ4ERgAKCP3J4easxdvt/bfgu7OALs5NLB+w== =qwF7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Fri, 8 May 2020 07:05:47 -0400 James Knott <james.knott@jknott.net> wrote:
On 2020-05-08 05:10 AM, Dave Howorth wrote:
Just looking at that arch page set me thinking. How is the UID chosen and made unique? Portably? That is, if I create two identical systems and create a user called Alice on the first system and a user called Bob on the second system, then AFAICT Alice and Bob will be given the same UID. What if I then port Bob's home directory to the first system?
My understanding is that the UID is chosen sequentially. This means that you would have the same UID assigned to different people on different systems. When you move a partition, there is no way to tell which person it belongs to.
But that's the whole point of systemd-homed surely? The ability to move a home directory. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, 8 May 2020 15:35:06 +0100 Dave Howorth <dave@howorth.org.uk> wrote:
On Fri, 8 May 2020 07:05:47 -0400 James Knott <james.knott@jknott.net> wrote:
On 2020-05-08 05:10 AM, Dave Howorth wrote:
Just looking at that arch page set me thinking. How is the UID chosen and made unique? Portably? That is, if I create two identical systems and create a user called Alice on the first system and a user called Bob on the second system, then AFAICT Alice and Bob will be given the same UID. What if I then port Bob's home directory to the first system?
My understanding is that the UID is chosen sequentially. This means that you would have the same UID assigned to different people on different systems. When you move a partition, there is no way to tell which person it belongs to.
But that's the whole point of systemd-homed surely? The ability to move a home directory.
To answer my own question, the answer is that systemd-homed synthesises a possibly different new UID on every machine. (See https://systemd.io/UIDS-GIDS/ "... 60001…60513 → UIDs for home directories managed by systemd-homed.service(8). UIDs from this range are automatically assigned to any home directory discovered, and persisted locally on first login. On different systems the same user might get different UIDs assigned in case of conflict, though it is attempted to make UID assignments stable, by deriving them from a hash of the user name. ..." So evidently the contents of the home directory aren't really the same as on a non-sd-hd system, since you can't depend on the UID staying the same. In fact, its the reverse of e.g. NFS - the name is the unique key and the 'UID' isn't reliable. (or even unique except when viewed in isolation) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, 8 May 2020 16:02:29 +0100 Dave Howorth <dave@howorth.org.uk> wrote:
On Fri, 8 May 2020 15:35:06 +0100 Dave Howorth <dave@howorth.org.uk> wrote:
On Fri, 8 May 2020 07:05:47 -0400 James Knott <james.knott@jknott.net> wrote:
On 2020-05-08 05:10 AM, Dave Howorth wrote:
Just looking at that arch page set me thinking. How is the UID chosen and made unique? Portably? That is, if I create two identical systems and create a user called Alice on the first system and a user called Bob on the second system, then AFAICT Alice and Bob will be given the same UID. What if I then port Bob's home directory to the first system?
My understanding is that the UID is chosen sequentially. This means that you would have the same UID assigned to different people on different systems. When you move a partition, there is no way to tell which person it belongs to.
But that's the whole point of systemd-homed surely? The ability to move a home directory.
To answer my own question, the answer is that systemd-homed synthesises a possibly different new UID on every machine. (See https://systemd.io/UIDS-GIDS/ "... 60001…60513 → UIDs for home directories managed by systemd-homed.service(8). UIDs from this range are automatically assigned to any home directory discovered, and persisted locally on first login. On different systems the same user might get different UIDs assigned in case of conflict, though it is attempted to make UID assignments stable, by deriving them from a hash of the user name. ..."
So evidently the contents of the home directory aren't really the same as on a non-sd-hd system, since you can't depend on the UID staying the same. In fact, its the reverse of e.g. NFS - the name is the unique key and the 'UID' isn't reliable. (or even unique except when viewed in isolation)
Aargh! Further down: "If the UID assigned to a user does not match the owner of the home directory in the file system, the home directory is automatically and recursively chown()ed to the correct UID." I dread to think about the possibilities. What if the home directory contains files owned by somebody else? etc etc -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 05/08/2020 10:08 AM, Dave Howorth wrote:
Aargh! Further down:
"If the UID assigned to a user does not match the owner of the home directory in the file system, the home directory is automatically and recursively chown()ed to the correct UID."
I dread to think about the possibilities. What if the home directory contains files owned by somebody else? etc etc
It's worse than Aargh!!! It's a total clusterfuck. I have nearly 20 years worth of files on 3 systems and countless backups that have file and directory access for 1/2 dozen law offices, a district judge and an engineering firm built on specific GIDs and none of the user GIDs match the UID. Now with homed you have no way to specify a users primary GID which completely breaks that system. Not to mention two decades of distros assigning various UID/GID schemes from individual primary numbered GIDs to generic 'users' GID for all users. The solution is to provide homed with the --gid= option just as it provides the --uid= option just a useradd and usermod do currently. The failure to accommodate the decades of file access control based on UID/GID scheme is a big shortcoming in this homed scheme. Thank god you can just leave it disabled and ignore it. -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
participants (15)
-
Anton Aylward -
Carlos E. R. -
Darryl Gregorash -
Dave Howorth -
David C. Rankin -
David T-G -
Frans de Boer -
Ianseeks -
James Knott -
jdd＠dodin.org -
Lew Wolfgang -
Patrick Shanahan -
Per Jessen -
Stevens -
suse＠a-domani.nl