-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Per Jessen wrote:

Pascal Bleser wrote:

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that point (if at all) - - don't discuss about having an NNTP gateway or something, this is not the topic, we can discuss that later on,

Sorry Pascal - you can't ignore something that is essential/critical to the issue.

Thank you for getting us again in this endless discussion loop... I never said to _ignore_ it. My point is just: let's first decide how we want the forums organized: - - elect existing ones (one per language) as official ones and merely add DNS aliases (e.g. de.forum.opensuse.org -> linuxclub.de) - - set up new web forums, hosted by Novell/SUSE (or maybe something in-between) What software to use (phpBB/vBulletin/... ...), whether we want an NNTP gateway or not, whether it's feasible, how, etc... will be discussed *later*. If we endlessly push every single aspect of that discussion in the current thread, we won't have any decision on anything. I'm just trying to move this discussion into something productive and finite. Of course, other topics will have to be discussed afterwards (one of them being an NNTP gateway), I never meant nor said to discard them.

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let's really try to get into some real actions or we'll be discussing this during 3 weeks and still get nowhere

What kind of actions are you after? I haven't got the time, otherwise I

A *decision*

would probably have already started bolting phpBB onto my newserver mailinglist setup. Is that what you're asking? (not necessarily of me personally, but in general).

No, not at all. Let's first clearly decide whether we want it and how (wrt. electing existing or creating new ones). One step at a time.

I'm perfectly willing to volunteer my time and resources (within reason), but I suspect any real action/decision will have to come from Novell though.

Wrong, the decision is up to Novell/SUSE _and us_, which is why it is being discussed here and now.

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1. Do we want/need openSUSE web forum(s) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Answer is: YES.

I disagree slightly. The answer is YES, but ONLY given that such a webforum is merely an additional interface to already existing fora. I strongly object to any officially sanctioned webforum with no mailinglist/nntp interface.

Well, ok, that's your opinion. I, for myself, don't give a **** about it if it sticks us into an endless discussion. I really think that integration with the mailing-list and/or NNTP is a different topic we can still discuss later on, once we have decided about integration of existing or setting up new web forums. Obviously, that decision has an influence because if we just elect existing web forums, we don't have all that much influence on - - where/how it is hosted (*) - - quality of service (*) - - whether and how to integrate it with the other communication channels (mailing-list, NNTP) (*) unless the elected, existing forums are moved to Novell/SUSE for hosting Again, let's please take this discussion one step at a time or we're not going to go anywhere.

With respect to the existing webfora here and there - they are probably all someones baby, so to ask people to give them up or migrate is going to be difficult, so why not just let people vote with their feet?

So, basically, you are in favor of setting up new web forums, hosted by Novell/SUSE ? cheers - -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ _\_v FOSDEM 2006 -- 25+26 February 2006 in Brussels -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFD2e4Ar3NMWliFcXcRAtd3AJwM8TPweuj1LQaL3yRTh5jt3gmBIgCglOeb OZaqZSozwHtUWDzS4A3MWf8= =+ozk -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

I usually dont reply this threads, but since this was the one in fifty I choose to read from suse lists (SNR really too high), lets do it. SUSE people already said they dont want to spent men-hours on it. We already have billions of forums, why one need to make official? They dot work now. Just tell people who like "forum based help" to go there. Why pointing forum,opensuse.org to, say, linux-club.de makes the forum better? What if the forum gets a bad place, will you remove that? Will you give to another guy forum? This can/will create little (big?) flames, people wantig to be 'the official", the chosen one, the one blessed by the pope... Does this get any forum better? Seems not. If SUSE dont/cant want to have a forum now and we have those that works already, I cant see othe option better than "do nothing or tell people to use the already stabilished community set ones". I fail to see how that would improve in any side. People think that if one tell them "hey, you are official now" then other shoudl take you seriously. Thats wrong. What you *do* is what makes you serious or not serious about, not a label. Just my 2 cents. Dont care to flame me, I probably wont read it. cheers Márcio On 1/27/06, Per Jessen wrote:

Pascal Bleser wrote:

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What software to use (phpBB/vBulletin/... ...), whether we want an NNTP gateway or not, whether it's feasible, how, etc... will be discussed *later*.

I'm not discussing software, I'm discussing functionality. Software is utterly irrelevant until the functionality is decided. Functionality, then software, then naming standards. With perhaps the odd iteration.

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I'm perfectly willing to volunteer my time and resources (within reason), but I suspect any real action/decision will have to come from Novell though.

Wrong, the decision is up to Novell/SUSE _and us_, which is why it is being discussed here and now.

Um, of course everyone here has the right to voice their opinion(s), but as far as partaking in the _decision_ process, I don't see how it works. (and I don't mind either - I'm prefectly content with being heard.)

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I disagree slightly. The answer is YES, but ONLY given that such a webforum is merely an additional interface to already existing fora. I strongly object to any officially sanctioned webforum with no mailinglist/nntp interface.

Well, ok, that's your opinion. I, for myself, don't give a **** about it if it sticks us into an endless discussion.

Then I respectfully submit that you haven't understood the issue. Besides, has anyone actively argued against my and others' proposal of a bi/tri-gated solution? Are you against it?

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So, basically, you are in favor of setting up new web forums, hosted by Novell/SUSE ?

Provided they are merely interfaces to e.g. a mailinglist and/or newsgroup, yes, I'm in favour. As long as they're not separate communities, I've always been in favour.

/Per Jessen, Zürich

-- http://www.spamchek.com/ - managed anti-spam and anti-virus solution. Let us analyse your spam- and virus-threat - up to 2 months for free.

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Pascal Bleser wrote:

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Besides, has anyone actively argued against my and others' proposal of a bi/tri-gated solution? Are you against it?

No, I'm absolutely not against it, but I think that a) adding NNTP "gatewaying" into the discussion thread is hijacking and we should first decide whether we want to elect existing forums or put up a new one

I think that's a secondary consideration, and I have not really been considering what existing forums should or should not do. (I think it's up to the respective owners, to be honest). As for NNTP-gatewaying, it's also secondary, yet completely analogous to adding a webforum gateway, which is why I brought it up. I wanted to bring the concept of ONE forum with MANY interfaces into play because it is probably the only way to avoid splitting the community. (which as you'll all know by now is my main concern).

b) we'll still be discussing the NNTP gateway thing in 3 months as obviously there isn't a simple solution to it (do you know some shrink-wrapped software that already does it ?)

Yes. It's called lmtp2nntp and inn. That's what I use - I'm pretty certain gmane uses something similar. Every mailinglist email I receive is fed through lmtp2nntp into my newsserver which is inn. It was a little more complicated before I found lmtp2nntp. (if anyone would like a peek at how this works, I can provide individual access by IP-address.)

c) it seems it's not easy to achieve, technically and if we sacrifice this thread to discussing how to do NNTP+mailing-list gatewaying with the webforum, then we'll never get anywhere

It IS easy to achieve, and there's no need to sacrifice the thread at all. Perhaps we (you and I and others) can agree that a webforum should be gated bi-dir to a mailinglist, with an NNTP gateway being optional, pending time and resources. After all, gmane does provide a well-functioning mailinglist-to-nntp gateway, even if it cannot currently accomodate opensuse. What may not be so easy to achieve is the bi-dir gating of a webforum (phpBB comes to mind) to a mailinglist. I'll volunteer to work on that if necessary and I can also probably add some resources from my company. Is phpBB a good nominee for the forum software?

Is there already software that does it ? Is it tested, stable, secure ?

If not then drop that topic for now, we'll pick it up later, we can't wait 6 months for someone to develop it and I definitely wouldn't want Novell's openSUSE staff to be busy with doing that because there are other much more important things to do (build service, doc server).

I understand what you're saying, but I would rather delay officially sanctioned webfora and wait for the proper solution. I don't think there is any urgent need to be honest - openSUSE took long enough to get going, let's not lose direction by making rash decisions. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- http://www.spamchek.com/ - managed anti-spam and anti-virus solution. Let us analyse your spam- and virus-threat - up to 2 months for free.

houghi wrote:

As we are asking them, we are not alienation them. This does not mean we have to do whatever they tell us to do.

we have any right to create any forum. but if we ask do you agree, they answer "no" and we create it all the same, we offend them... jdd -- http://www.dodin.net Quelques images: http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html

Pascal Bleser wrote:

jdd wrote:

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Pascal Bleser wrote:

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3. Do we create a new forum or do we elect one of the existing I don't really see what this mean "elect".

<french> jdd, "elect" signifie "élire" (comme dans "élection") </french>

it's a translation from "pascal", I needed, not from english :-) Hrer it would be better "choisir".

No, with "electing" an existing forum to become the "official" one I mean e.g. saying that http://www.suseforums.net/ is *the* official openSUSE web forum (and probably add a DNS alias forum.opensuse.org -> www.suseforums.net, or something like that).

dns option mean something, the other one don't mean anything not already done

Note that personally, I tend more and more to the option of setting up a new forum because just pointing to an existing one has many, many problems (most already cited by Houghi): legal, technical, control, quality of service.

+1 jdd -- http://www.dodin.net Quelques images: http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html

On Fri, Jan 27, 2006 at 09:10:57AM -0500, wcuestas-gmail wrote:

Hi, I agree 100% with item 4, We need and "Spanish spoken here" forum. Regards, Thanks for the feedback and also please read http://www.opensuse.org/Opensuse_mailing_list_netiquette

houghi -- Quick, sing me the BUDAPEST NATIONAL ANTHEM!!

Hi, On Friday, January 27, 2006 at 15:11:28, houghi wrote:

On Fri, Jan 27, 2006 at 09:26:40AM +0100, Pascal Bleser wrote:

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- - http://linuxclub.de (in german) (Henne already volunteered to contact them)

What is the URL to the discussion, so we can lurk? Or is it done via Email with the maintainers and/or moderators?

A search did not brought up anything relevant.

http://lists.opensuse.org/archive/opensuse/2006-Jan/0633.html Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, Core Services "Rules change. The Game remains the same." - Omar (The Wire)

Hi, On Friday, January 27, 2006 at 16:17:10, houghi wrote:

On Fri, Jan 27, 2006 at 03:19:56PM +0100, Henne Vogelsang wrote:

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http://lists.opensuse.org/archive/opensuse/2006-Jan/0633.html

OK. So where can subscribed and logged in members read the postings?

http://www.linux-club.de/viewtopic.php?t=52199 Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, Core Services "Rules change. The Game remains the same." - Omar (The Wire)

On Sun, Jan 29, 2006 at 11:52:01PM +0100, Johannes Kastl wrote:

On 01/27/2006 04:22 PM Henne Vogelsang wrote:

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http://www.linux-club.de/viewtopic.php?t=52199

I had time just today, so I began to discuss, and I hope I didnt write too much sh*t ;-)

Not too many errors. Some intersting points are being brought up. And in general I get a feeling they feel left alone and nobody cared what they did for devral years. Now they are asked and frustration pops up. This shows more then anything else that contact to the users is essential for the future of SUSE (and openSUSE). What I also get is that they are only concerned about the German forum and not in the least interested in the rest. SUSE is since long not a German only distribution anymore. There are just feelings I get when reading it. They are in no way statements made by anybody specific. Just something I _think_ I catch when reading the messages. Oh well, Henne is bored on monday, so he can dio a proper minutes of what has been going on. :-D What are the URLs for any of the other forums? houghi -- Real Programmers don't write in PL/I. PL/I is for programmers who can't decide whether to write in COBOL or FORTRAN.