On Monday 22 Oct 2007, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* ianseeks [10-22-07 18:27]:

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Can anyone tell me how I can get a signature to appear correctly when replying to someone? Mine always appears at the bottom of the email rather than after my reply but above the original email.

as it should, after your reply. And your reply should *not* be above the original email.

Its horses for courses. That maybe alright for mailing lists but if you are doing it in a professional business environment, then no. No-one reading your reply to their email will expect to go to the bottom of the email scanning passed their own email and read your signature to find your phone number or whatever you put in your signature.

The original email should be trimmed to only that needed to put your reply into context and your reply should appear immediately after that to which your are commenting.

Your expected compliance will be appreciated here :^)

-- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org

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On Tuesday 23 October 2007 23:31:58 Carlos E. R. wrote:

You got it wrong. Nobody is expecting you to scan all of your previous email. You are expeted to DELETE all that unneeded text before you write the answer at the bottom.

At the risk of sounding like the KMail pull-a-cord-for-features doll, if you highlight the text you want to quote using the mouse before hitting reply, you only get that text quoted in the reply. Will -- Desktop Engineer KDE Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, 2007-10-23 at 22:43 +0100, ianseeks wrote:

On Tuesday 23 Oct 2007, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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The Tuesday 2007-10-23 at 22:02 +0100, ianseeks wrote:

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No-one reading your reply to their email will expect to go to the bottom of the email scanning passed their own email and read your signature to find your phone number or whatever you put in your signature.

You got it wrong. nope Nobody is expecting you to scan all of your previous email. You are expeted to DELETE all that unneeded text before you write the answer at the bottom. No. I guess you don't correspond to people in the business world very much apart from other techies. Business demand email trails. Heard of SOX? Like this email. Fine for mailing lists

I've been watching this with some amusement. This whole thread started out with someone asking how to insert signatures in a location of their own personal preference for their own personal use. Immediately there was a knee-jerk reaction with people dictating how replies are supposed to be set up for mailing lists. This thread had NOTHING to do with mailing lists. Pay attention folks! The guy wasn't going anywhere NEAR a discussion of mailing lists, and email clients are not dedicated specifically for use in mailing lists. In business, replies (and signatures) are customary on top. Enterprise solutions such as GroupWise always puts the sigs up top. The guy wanted to do that for his business correspondence. Nothing at all to do with mailing lists. -- ---Bryen--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 24 Oct 2007, Carlos E. R. wrote:

The Tuesday 2007-10-23 at 17:15 -0500, Bryen wrote:

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solutions such as GroupWise always puts the sigs up top. The guy wanted to do that for his business correspondence.

Well, now, he didn't specify; not in his first message, at least. Any reason why i should have? It was not anyone's business.

I was free to guess which was the intended audience. Why?

Anyway, my answer was intended as a "pun".

? Its caused a load of totally unnecessary rants because of a false assumption.

-- Cheers, Carlos E. R.

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 24 Oct 2007, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

No, your failure to properly and completely present your case generated the responses and my post was the first suggesting that the observed action by kmail was *correct*, as it was for here.

Nope, I asked for a way to do something that is correct for me for non-mailing list communication. See Will Stephenson's answer, he had no problem with it.

When you ask a question and fail to distinguish the parameters, you take the answers you get. If you don't like it, ask proper questions! Try comprehension of the question - only the "etiquette" ranters struggled to comprehend it and used it as an excuse to rant.

ps, you could at least trim the sigs from your quotes. Your expected consideration will be appreciated. who cares apart from you?

-- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org

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On Thu, 2007-10-25 at 00:16 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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The Wednesday 2007-10-24 at 21:35 +0100, ianseeks wrote:

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The Tuesday 2007-10-23 at 17:15 -0500, Bryen wrote:

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solutions such as GroupWise always puts the sigs up top. The guy wanted to do that for his business correspondence.

Well, now, he didn't specify; not in his first message, at least. Any reason why i should have? It was not anyone's business.

You got the answer you deserved, then. First learn how to post questions, then you can complain that you get incorrect answers.

QUOTING FROM THE ORIGINAL POST: "Hi all Can anyone tell me how I can get a signature to appear correctly when replying to someone? Mine always appears at the bottom of the email rather than after my reply but above the original email. regards Ian" ________________________________________ The above looks like a pretty simple straightforward question and Carlos, I don't see how you could have misunderstood it. He asked a simple task question and got lambasted for mailing list issues. If a question like above is so offensive, then we're all offending you with our own questions. Just so the rest of us understand what was wrong here, Carlos, can you please dissect the above question and explain why it was so horribly wrong and offensive to you? For example: Should any thread about KMail or Evolution always include the disclaimer "Note: This is not about mail listing." ? If so, then the rest of us will duly include such disclaimers about any email program question to appease you. One thing that doesn't make sense to me about why you jumped to the assumption that this was a mailing list question is that Ian stated "when replying to someone." A mailing list is not "someone" and thus that is what made it clear for me and for the others who posted appropriate responses to Ian. To the rest of us, "someone" indicates an individual. Thanks in advance for any clarification you can offer us so we can further improve our postings for you. -- ---Bryen--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 * Bryen [10-23-07 18:40]:

The guy wanted to do that for his business correspondence. Nothing at all to do with mailing lists.

Then I guess he should have stipulated that and he din't. And perhaps you should read what is written rather than what you suppose :^) - -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn4472 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHHpWZClSjbQz1U5oRAsGFAJ9FGyayuP7nATl7bdybQXDgneYB3wCgnuIN PCeOPpj1GQzoyxfeWKAXPsQ= =Q/gr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 * ianseeks [10-24-07 16:54]:

If people have nothing constructive to contribute to a thread then they should sit on their hands.

Guess you'll have to move your head out of your way first :^) - -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn4472 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHH7JIClSjbQz1U5oRAiTzAKCcFvo0Y+yXW7Hce6wkrNLt0uxW0QCgh91b uS4BnZM5R7oyRuvyGZgXejk= =lMdt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Wednesday 2007-10-24 at 21:52 +0100, ianseeks wrote:

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The guy wanted to do that for his business correspondence. Nothing at all to do with mailing lists.

Then I guess he should have stipulated that and he din't. Why should I have done that ? It was a straight forward question and it would have made the email unnecessarily longer and it was irrelevant.

And perhaps you should read what is written rather than what you suppose :^) Bryen did read what I had written and didn't make any stupid assumptions unlike some others that like to continually rant about mailing list etiquette.

Bryen answered _after_ you mentioned it was for business correspondence. We did not have that advantage. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFHH8VbtTMYHG2NR9URAptiAJ4jbtwDAbIXug7vxKZ5YzcfnRQUPwCgkVaE 9cLE9MTH+Ucs55rvCgB7c3o= =jtPJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 * Bryen [10-24-07 18:35]:

But didn't you actually have the advantage when Ian stated in his original post "replying to SOMEONE"? That had absolutely no relation whatsoever to mailing lists.

Posed on a "mailing" list where the expected format adhears to "mailing" list protocal has no relation whatsoever to "mailing" lists? You take literary liberty with the implied meaning. - -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn4472 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHH8uiClSjbQz1U5oRAlwtAJ4lV5xt1vcUkTzRK/7Jex8+3tPAbACfRa94 /4/Wj4mr1LXQLHpQ8fvkUrY= =i1kX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 23 October 2007 14:43:40 ianseeks wrote:

On Tuesday 23 Oct 2007, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

The Tuesday 2007-10-23 at 22:02 +0100, ianseeks wrote: [...] Nobody is expecting you to scan all of your previous email. You are expeted to DELETE all that unneeded text before you write the answer at the bottom.

No. I guess you don't correspond to people in the business world very much apart from other techies. Business demand email trails. Heard of SOX?

Notwithstanding the place where a signature "should" be placed, the only Sarbanes-Oxley trusted email trail I think would be one assembled by the email server, based solely on the Message-Id, In-Reply-To, and References email headers in the original messages as they are processed by the mail server. I personally would not consider content of an embedded message quote trustworthy, because of the potential for malicious modification of its content by other than its original author. [...] Jim -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 23 October 2007 14:43:40 ianseeks arrogantly wrote:

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Nobody is expecting you to scan all of your previous email. You are expeted to DELETE all that unneeded text before you write the answer at the bottom.

No. I guess you don't correspond to people in the business world very much apart from other techies. Business demand email trails. Heard of SOX?

...

Like this email.

Fine for mailing lists

Bull. It may well be a requirement in the US (and elsewhere) to keep copies of email on file, but it is certainly NOT expected that everyone will be too lazy to trim replies to the necessary amount only. -- Bob Smits bob@rsmits.ca A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 22 October 2007 18:39, Carlos E. R. wrote:

The Monday 2007-10-22 at 23:26 +0100, ianseeks wrote:

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Can anyone tell me how I can get a signature to appear correctly when replying to someone? Mine always appears at the bottom of the email rather than after my reply but above the original email.

Kmail is doing the correct thing.

ROTFL! Tell that to the 90% of users on Wintendo/Outlook/Outloook Express. There are occasions, however, when I'd like to top poast as well. Obviously it would be a poor choice to to on a mailing list, but when it is the sandard/customary way to reply then I do so. I just copy the sig from the bottom or simply delete it. -- kai ponte www.perfectreign.com genuine windows replacement part: www.opensuse.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Tuesday 2007-10-23 at 10:40 +0200, Will Stephenson wrote:

It's not KMail's job to enforce list etiquette, but the default is sensible.

I should have added a ":-P" to my answer ;-)

You can also get creative with the Composer->Templates to set up different templates for new mails and replies, and set up per-identity templates for separating your Wintendo work identity and your überhacker opensource existence. We can't accept liability for any resulting schizophrenia, however.

Interesting.

NB Intentional top posting, respond and be trolled :).

X-) - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFHHb+7tTMYHG2NR9URAvHIAJ0cusarS0JPPg6RdrNiTJCg/4EYowCgkFXv HJpLlgvbBjyVVZNWLmMrGTc= =BXYy -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On Tuesday 23 October 2007 14:13, ianseeks wrote:

On Tuesday 23 Oct 2007, Will Stephenson wrote:

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It's not KMail's job to enforce list etiquette,

True

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but the default is sensible.

Yes for mailing lists, but not for professional responses in the business world.

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Ian: in the Composer->General config page, check 'insert signatures above quoted text'. You will have to add some extra spaces below your signature (in the Identity config tab, most likely) to get the spacing right between the bottom of your sig and the start of the quote.

You can also get creative with the Composer->Templates to set up different templates for new mails and replies, and set up per-identity templates for separating your Wintendo work identity and your überhacker opensource existence.

Thanks, that is the sort of response that is very appreciated.

This is actually a very cool response. Thanks, will! I had googled this and found only belligerant and snide remarks about how bottom posting is "better" blah, blah, blah... Unfornately, it is the case that some huge number of corporate email systems use top posting as the default. In addition, some number of home email systems also top post by default. I even tried settting Outlook to bottom post (yes you can configure Outlook to bottom post) but got frustrated at everyone else's unwillingness to comply. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Wednesday 2007-10-24 at 05:03 -0700, Jerry Houston wrote:

As has been hinted at already, corporate email is very different than Usenet newsgroup postings and public mailing lists. The needs are different, and top posting is indeed called for most of the time in that environment.

...

As every new person is involved, that person can move down through the thread as far as necessary to get up to speed with the others.

Yes, that's correct. I also top post in that environment, although I some times trim the bottom. However, I hate when somebody sends a large Word or excel document, and it starts being sent from sales to customer care to technician to boss... and I get dozens of copies of the same file. It's quite a nuisance when you are off the premises using a modem to download your email. It can be an abuse. Or when somebody joins a mail list, using a corporate account and keeps using the same top posting technique as for business mail, increasing email sizes to dozens of kilobytes. We all should follow proper usage rules depending where we write.

Those of us who encourage bottom posting and quote trimming _here_ don't presume to tell others how to conduct their business and personal one-to-one emails. It's up to them to decide what makes sense for them. We're only saying that _here_, in a public forum, one should abide by the rules set by the list administrators and customs that make sense in this particular context. There are many good reasons for those particular rules, most of which have been already been enumerated.

Yes, true. But that doesn't mean that the default behavior of kmail is incorrect ;-) - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFHH9r0tTMYHG2NR9URAlOWAJ9U0eIF2w7X8eWiuU/mkRRSqy4dzgCfa/+K r3+TxOodWJNJBW+BDE2e/2k= =KiTX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Wednesday 2007-10-24 at 17:20 -0700, Kai Ponte wrote:

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As every new person is involved, that person can move down through the thread as far as necessary to get up to speed with the others.

Yes, that's correct. I also top post in that environment, although I some times trim the bottom.

But what do you do while drinking beer?

In fact, an important quesiton - what beer is best for top posting and what is better fro bottom posting?

ROTFL! X'-) I have no idea... I prefer cider :-p - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFHH+PjtTMYHG2NR9URAvEqAKCWou+juF99H4dwWUMRqN/+yDmGQwCePsNs VzW6xOitm7nz1EVg1ovd2mM= =EEx5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 * Kai Ponte [10-24-07 20:26]:

But what do you do while drinking beer?

In fact, an important quesiton - what beer is best for top posting and what is better fro bottom posting?

Budweiser, it's better for bottom patting and for top patting... or rubbing, or ..... :^) - -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn4472 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHH+gZClSjbQz1U5oRAs79AKCZKI51QyQ31uaPd+3m5BJiwnB+EwCdHC6h oxgRie9P6V1/6KG7SN0dISc= =M5J0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org