As I recall, when I installed SUSE 10 on my laptop I chose "English-UK" as it's close to what's spoken here in Australia. Now I find software thinks I'm in the home of fog, AKA Britain, whereas I'm really in the home of sunshine, aka Perth. The language selection is tolerable, though I'd rather an Australian dictionary (for example) if one exists, so as to have Australian words such as dingo, barramundi, quoll recognised. What really bugged me was starting gnucash and finding it want to use pommy quids instead of Aussie Royals (alright, we didn't call the rowals, but we nearly did. Really) aka dollars. I thought it was gniucash being stupid, but no, it might have an excuse: summer@Phascogale:~> echo $LANG en_GB.UTF-8 summer@Phascogale:~> Worse, I'm setting up postgresql and found this nonsnse in its config file: 287 # These settings are initialized by initdb -- they might be changed 288 lc_messages = 'en_GB.UTF-8' # locale for system error message strings 289 lc_monetary = 'en_GB.UTF-8' # locale for monetary formatting 290 lc_numeric = 'en_GB.UTF-8' # locale for number formatting 291 lc_time = 'en_GB.UTF-8' # locale for time formatting Now I could just change that to en_AU.UTF-8, but it's not one of the variants of English listed in /etc/sysconfig/language What have I overlooked? Or is this a bug in something?
John Summerfield wrote:
As I recall, when I installed SUSE 10 on my laptop I chose "English-UK" as it's close to what's spoken here in Australia.
Now I find software thinks I'm in the home of fog, AKA Britain, whereas I'm really in the home of sunshine, aka Perth.
What really bugged me was starting gnucash and finding it want to use pommy quids instead of Aussie Royals (alright, we didn't call the rowals, but we nearly did. Really) aka dollars.
This is because you didn't also change the locale when you opted for English-UK. You can change the locale to en_AU.
Now I could just change that to en_AU.UTF-8, but it's not one of the variants of English listed in /etc/sysconfig/language
Use YasT. I have the option in SUSE 10.0. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- http://www.spamchek.com/ - managed anti-spam and anti-virus solution. http://www.tuscanweb.com/ - going to Tuscany?
Per Jessen wrote:
John Summerfield wrote:
As I recall, when I installed SUSE 10 on my laptop I chose "English-UK" as it's close to what's spoken here in Australia.
Now I find software thinks I'm in the home of fog, AKA Britain, whereas I'm really in the home of sunshine, aka Perth.
What really bugged me was starting gnucash and finding it want to use pommy quids instead of Aussie Royals (alright, we didn't call the rowals, but we nearly did. Really) aka dollars.
This is because you didn't also change the locale when you opted for English-UK. You can change the locale to en_AU.
Now I could just change that to en_AU.UTF-8, but it's not one of the variants of English listed in /etc/sysconfig/language
Use YasT. I have the option in SUSE 10.0.
I think I've done that now... Yast behaved most oddly. First, it complained I had no installation source. Then, when I was trying to get out of that to check my installation sources, it appeared to go through the motions of installing something... We have, I think, a problem with the definition of locale. Surely, I'm not alone in thinking that when I have set my timezone (to Australia/Perth) I've configured my locale. Here's a dictionary definition: locale n : the scene of any event or action (especially the place of a meeting) [syn: venue, locus] I read a little further and find this: locale <programming> A geopolitical place or area, especially in the context of configuring an operating system or application program with its character sets, date and time formats, currency formats etc. Locales are significant for internationalisation and localisation. The second will escape most non-computing people, and a lot of those who think themselves expert with computers. Once _I_ have chosen Australia/Perth, the software should _know_ our currency, our language, our alphabet and character sets. Now, I know there are multilingual nations: we regularly play some of them at cricket, but Australia isn't one of them. When I started up Yast just now, I saw separate choices for "Time and Date" and "Language." Both of those are elements of 'locale," and Yast should have one configuration tool to set both.
John Summerfield wrote:
We have, I think, a problem with the definition of locale. Surely, I'm not alone in thinking that when I have set my timezone (to Australia/Perth) I've configured my locale.
Not at all. Timezone and locale may be related, but one does not imply the other. My timezone is CET - what does that tell you about my locale?
When I started up Yast just now, I saw separate choices for "Time and Date" and "Language." Both of those are elements of 'locale,"
No, they are not. Type in "locale" on your computer to see your locale settings, and you'll notice that the time-format, but not the timezone is part of the locale. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- http://www.spamchek.com/ - managed anti-spam and anti-virus solution.
John Summerfield wrote:
We have, I think, a problem with the definition of locale. Surely, I'm not alone in thinking that when I have set my timezone (to Australia/Perth) I've configured my locale.
Not at all. Timezone and locale may be related, but one does not imply the other. My timezone is CET - what does that tell you about my locale? You probably don't speak any variety of Chinese, Urdu, Japanese or Hindi:-) Just that statement rules out languages spoken by over 1/3 of
Per Jessen wrote: the people on planet Earth today. Probably, you have a fair skin not dark, English isn't your first language, are (culturally) Christian not Shinto, use Euros not Pesos or Dongs and don't normally eat grubs or snakes. Your choice of language (for installation) and keyboard would go far to informing one better about you.
When I started up Yast just now, I saw separate choices for "Time and Date" and "Language." Both of those are elements of 'locale,"
No, they are not. Type in "locale" on your computer to see your locale settings, and you'll notice that the time-format, but not the timezone is part of the locale.
/Per Jessen, Zürich
If you want your users to understand you, best use language they already understand. I didn't say the time zone fully defines the locale (and descriped in the dictionary fromwhich I quoted): indeed I made the point it doesn't always, but for may places it does, and a tool that combines all elements of locale use users are likely to understand the word makes good sense. And you have to be brave to dispute with the professional lexcographers who think time, date, alphabet etc are all part of locale: they don't define the language, they catalogue how it's used.
* John Summerfield <suse@herakles.homelinux.org> [12-03-05 08:45]:
And you have to be brave to dispute with the professional lexcographers who think time, date, alphabet etc are all part of locale: they don't define the language, they catalogue how it's used.
Indeed. And perhaps the lexcographers, probably somewhat lacking in computerese (!tm), have incorrectly cataloged (modern US spelling) the usage of 'locale' as a definitive in computer usage. -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org HOG # US1244711 Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2
Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* John Summerfield <suse@herakles.homelinux.org> [12-03-05 08:45]:
And you have to be brave to dispute with the professional lexcographers who think time, date, alphabet etc are all part of locale: they don't define the language, they catalogue how it's used.
Indeed. And perhaps the lexcographers, probably somewhat lacking in computerese (!tm), have incorrectly cataloged (modern US spelling) the usage of 'locale' as a definitive in computer usage.
Saying they don't know their job is rather like saying Linux and all the others who've contributed to SUSE 10 are not expert in computing. I rather think most lexicographers, like most programmers making worthwhile contributions to Linux, have training and experience in their craft and that they are competant at their jobs.
* John Summerfield <suse@herakles.homelinux.org> [12-04-05 03:36]:
Saying they don't know their job is rather like saying Linux and all the others who've contributed to SUSE 10 are not expert in computing.
You take much liberty with intended/perceived meaning of statements. Nowhere did I say that _anyone_ didn't know their job. There are many varying degrees of proficiency. You are presuming only two and at opposite ends of the spectrum. As a group, I would agree that EVERYONE (singular) is most definitely not an expert in computing. A large percentage may be.
I rather think most lexicographers, like most programmers making worthwhile contributions to Linux, have training and experience in their craft and that they are competant at their jobs.
I would argue that *many* of the programers making worthwile contributions to linux have little or no training and contribute more as a hobby or pass-time. Just because I am a journeyman cabinet maker does not mean that I am knowledgable in the production of wire brads, plastic knobs, varnishes or stains. SOME lexicographers *may* be quite knowledgable in computerese. -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org HOG # US1244711 Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2
John Summerfield wrote:
Not at all. Timezone and locale may be related, but one does not imply the other. My timezone is CET - what does that tell you about my locale? You probably don't speak any variety of Chinese, Urdu, Japanese or Hindi:-) Just that statement rules out languages spoken by over 1/3 of the people on planet Earth today.
Probably, you have a fair skin not dark, English isn't your first language, are (culturally) Christian not Shinto, use Euros not Pesos or Dongs and don't normally eat grubs or snakes.
So, in effect the timezone tells you very little about my locale - which includes things like number-format, thousands-separator, time-format, and currency-symbol.
Your choice of language (for installation) and keyboard would go far to informing one better about you.
Probably not - I usually use English for installation, and I use a US-english keyboard for the moment. But we're digressing. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- http://www.spamchek.com/ - managed anti-spam and anti-virus solution.
Per Jessen wrote:
John Summerfield wrote:
Not at all. Timezone and locale may be related, but one does not imply the other. My timezone is CET - what does that tell you about my locale? You probably don't speak any variety of Chinese, Urdu, Japanese or Hindi:-) Just that statement rules out languages spoken by over 1/3 of the people on planet Earth today.
Probably, you have a fair skin not dark, English isn't your first language, are (culturally) Christian not Shinto, use Euros not Pesos or Dongs and don't normally eat grubs or snakes.
So, in effect the timezone tells you very little about my locale - which includes things like number-format, thousands-separator, time-format, and currency-symbol.
Well, it doesn't define your curency symbol, but there are vanishly few choices:- Look at what it _does_ say: those choices should be the ones offered by Yast (along with other) when configuring locale. Of course, timezone doesn't tell everything, but it tells a lot, just as currency does: if you normally use Francs, you're not part of the EU, your date format is not mm/dd/yy Oh, your timezone also suggests that the local a few km (you don't use miles) up the road are likely to speak with quite a different accent: if you know that my WST applies to Australia/Perth, you on't be surprised to hear that my wife and I, from opposite sides of our country, speak with the same accent:-) Accent might be an element of locale not used atm, but when speach syntheses gets going, you really do not want to use an American accent for Australians!
Your choice of language (for installation) and keyboard would go far to informing one better about you.
Probably not - I usually use English for installation, and I use a US-english keyboard for the moment. But we're digressing.
Consider the general case, not you specically: "Per" suggests to me you're from Scandinavia, maybe Denmark, but "John" (with variations such as Juan, Ivan) is used all over the world, and people often adopt the local variant when they move to another country. Applying some logic, some consistency check, would have made the choice of UK currency and an Australian timezone relatively difficult: while I can imagine someone migh want our timezone coupled (by default, maintaining some accounts in a foreign currency is different) with a foreign currency, I can't explain _why_ they'd want to.
John Summerfield wrote:
Look at what it _does_ say: those choices should be the ones offered by Yast (along with other) when configuring locale.
Ah, now we're getting somewhere - what YaST does is one thing, what the locale defines is another. I think there's probably room for YaST to make some more intelligent guessing/assumptions about the users locale and language-settings but that discussion is probably better placed on the opensuse-list. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- http://www.spamchek.com/ - managed anti-spam and anti-virus solution.
participants (3)
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John Summerfield -
Patrick Shanahan -
Per Jessen