RE: [opensuse] KMail5 Dependencies
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: sdm Gesendet: Do. 28.04.2016 09:55 An: opensuse@opensuse.org Betreff: [opensuse] KMail5 Dependencies
I was curious about trying KMail5, but it needs a whole ton of hard dependencies to even install. PIM libraries, Akonadi, and on and on. When I install Thunderbird, it needs 0 dependencies. It doesn't even try to install 1 extra dependency. The last time I saw developers and package maintainers discussing Akondai, the gist I got from what they were saying was that it's pure crap and just a total mess that needs to be trashed. So, my question is, what does KMail5 need so many dependencies? It just looks like a ton of bloat; I don't want Akonadi or PIM or any of that stuff. All I would want is an email client and that's it.
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht Ende-----
Well you have plenty. If you choose the Kontact/Kmail solution you get an integrated package. I would be curious when you did "talk to developers" because you info is opposed to mine. For what I know: Either kmail / kontact as well as akonadi is under development. Kmail has integration with kleopatra and that is also developed on, to guarantee smartcard support (I had this info just today). Akonadi afaik is in the very moment partially rewritten to achieve higher speed and less system load. By itself it is normal that Kmail draws in a lot of dependencies because is has a lot of functions (that you probably do not use). Therefore for you there is T-bird, Claws, Evolution (although that will have a lot of gtk dependencies) and so many others. So this is not really "it is pure crap". There have been (so I have been told) problems and bugs that are "by design error" (concerning especially annoying things like the "filter amnesia" and some others), and these are addressed by the rewriting. Once you search for a specific mail or attachment, I can guarantee you, if your mail is about 5 to 6 years of messages, it is very nice (as done by me just two days ago) to find the mail in question in about 20 seconds or less, just by querying the database. So..... I do not really subscribe to "pure crap". YMMV. P.s. T-bird does not install dependency because it was originally designed to be a stand alone product. Independent but also not collaborative with the respective desktop or O.S.. Thus...what "dependency" should a totally independent third party product bring in? Anyway, what would be the issues of the dependencies? Running your KDE on a very small tablet device w/o disk space? Because if not, this will not bother you to try. Anyway if you do not like it, you can stop akonadi and you will have thereafter no system load. Sure the first run of indexation of baloo / database will take about one day in my experience. If you set up at night and give the machine the whole night to work in standby you will be done without really noticing. Don't forget to setup spamassassin (you have to install the packages independently, they are not dependency) if you want a good spam filter with pop. --- Mail & Cloud Made in Germany mit 3 GB Speicher! https://email.freenet.de/mail/Uebersicht?epid=e9900000450 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
stakanov@freenet.de wrote:
many others. So this is not really "it is pure crap". There have been (so I have been told) problems and bugs that are "by design error" (concerning especially annoying things like the "filter amnesia" and some others), and these are addressed by the rewriting. Once you search for a specific mail or attachment, I can guarantee you, if your mail is about 5 to 6 years of messages, it is very nice (as done by me just two days ago) to find the mail in question in about 20 seconds or less, just by querying the database.
For IMAP users, email indexes are often/usually maintained by the IMAP server (dovecot et al). With the imap index it probably takes a couple of seconds, without it, it took 11 seconds to search 57000 mails :-)
Anyway, what would be the issues of the dependencies?
Some people just like to know what they install and why. I also don't like installing stuff that drags along loads of dependencies, especially ones I don't think I need. For instance, when you install rrdtool, it drags along all kinds of graphics and font stuff, wayland and X11, dri and mesa - all of which is utterly superfluous on a system where you only do the data collection. It's not about space, it's about being in control. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (6.8°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - virtual servers, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2016-04-28 11:22, Per Jessen wrote:
stakanov@freenet.de wrote:
many others. So this is not really "it is pure crap". There have been (so I have been told) problems and bugs that are "by design error" (concerning especially annoying things like the "filter amnesia" and some others), and these are addressed by the rewriting. Once you search for a specific mail or attachment, I can guarantee you, if your mail is about 5 to 6 years of messages, it is very nice (as done by me just two days ago) to find the mail in question in about 20 seconds or less, just by querying the database.
For IMAP users, email indexes are often/usually maintained by the IMAP server (dovecot et al). With the imap index it probably takes a couple of seconds, without it, it took 11 seconds to search 57000 mails :-)
Body text search? Or just subject? Because here a body text search on my local dovecot often triggers a rescan of the mailboxes, which can take several hours (lucene)
Anyway, what would be the issues of the dependencies?
Some people just like to know what they install and why. I also don't like installing stuff that drags along loads of dependencies, especially ones I don't think I need.
I suppose that if you install a KDE tool, such as Kmail, tons of things from KDE get installed. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlch5mMACgkQja8UbcUWM1xeTAD8CpWnD9JA2FmmN5Jbpd7UR/Hq /FbKaS0D8860YJ+8Gz4A/354kbMJ1mOKQ0YtXOvZkpnTvO6TBslEzLViK+1p2RXc =wDog -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, 28 Apr 2016, Carlos E. R. wrote:
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On 2016-04-28 11:22, Per Jessen wrote:
stakanov@freenet.de wrote:
many others. So this is not really "it is pure crap". There have been (so I have been told) problems and bugs that are "by design error" (concerning especially annoying things like the "filter amnesia" and some others), and these are addressed by the rewriting. Once you search for a specific mail or attachment, I can guarantee you, if your mail is about 5 to 6 years of messages, it is very nice (as done by me just two days ago) to find the mail in question in about 20 seconds or less, just by querying the database.
For IMAP users, email indexes are often/usually maintained by the IMAP server (dovecot et al). With the imap index it probably takes a couple of seconds, without it, it took 11 seconds to search 57000 mails :-)
Body text search? Or just subject? Because here a body text search on my local dovecot often triggers a rescan of the mailboxes, which can take several hours (lucene)
That was another "are you kidding me?" moment for me. That is the epitome of a dysfunctional solution.
I suppose that if you install a KDE tool, such as Kmail, tons of things from KDE get installed.
The whole point is really I think that Akonadi does not equal KDE. You can use KDE just fine without it. No user of KDE should be forced to use that ****of crap*. I don't want to be married to a platform that is KDE only, that is going to store all of my personal data and emails in a faulty database that runs somewhere in /var/lib or whatever, or even in some user home directory subfolder that I don't know about. A system that is not stable and not solid, not dependable and not resilient. And in no way failsafe. I have always stayed away from "full solutions" that were not to my liking and it is one imortant reason I have never started using a Mac (other than the cost). Thunderbird is simple, a single package, easy to understand, stores it where you know it is, only weird thing is the naming of its profiles. Doesn't use any remote (or even local) database service for storing its content, has its own format you might say. Is still not trustworthy and caused me 2 months of email being deleted by a standard action. Can't do certain simple things and HTML composing (rich composer) is horrid with replying to emails and knowing how to space the "quoted text". I constantly have to remember changing my "from" address and some things are just extremely suboptimal but all the same it has worked for a long time and I have found nothing that even came near it ever. Even though it has been around for like forever but from my perspective email has not advanced much since the days of Netscape Communicator except that I've started using IMAP. (If you look at Netscape mail directories you will find it uses the exact same format as today's Thunderbird :p). So for me once more, nothing much has improved in 10 years at least, much has regressed, and I'm happy to use IMAP but I find it hard to back up (remotely). Regards. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2016-04-28 12:52, Xen wrote:
On Thu, 28 Apr 2016, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Body text search? Or just subject? Because here a body text search on my local dovecot often triggers a rescan of the mailboxes, which can take several hours (lucene)
That was another "are you kidding me?" moment for me.
That is the epitome of a dysfunctional solution.
No, no kidding. Maybe there is something wrong in my install, but when I request Thunderbird to do a text search, asking the server (in the same computer), it can take hours unless I did another search before that has already finishes. Of course, my mail store is big. Maybe the indexes get out of sync when new mail is copied/apended to the folders.
I suppose that if you install a KDE tool, such as Kmail, tons of things from KDE get installed.
The whole point is really I think that Akonadi does not equal KDE.
You can use KDE just fine without it. No user of KDE should be forced to use that ****of crap*.
That's a matter of opinion >:-P
I don't want to be married to a platform that is KDE only, that is going to store all of my personal data and emails in a faulty database that runs somewhere in /var/lib or whatever, or even in some user home directory subfolder that I don't know about.
A system that is not stable and not solid, not dependable and not resilient. And in no way failsafe.
I have always stayed away from "full solutions" that were not to my liking and it is one imortant reason I have never started using a Mac (other than the cost). Thunderbird is simple, a single package, easy to understand, stores it where you know it is, only weird thing is the naming of its profiles.
Well, I also use Thunderbird, not kmail. But as another post pointed out, Thunderbird disk size is bigger than kmail with those deps.
Doesn't use any remote (or even local) database service for storing its content, has its own format you might say. Is still not trustworthy and caused me 2 months of email being deleted by a standard action.
As far as that goes, in my case both kmail and thunderbird use the same mail storage. Not the indexes, though.
(If you look at Netscape mail directories you will find it uses the exact same format as today's Thunderbird :p).
I know. In fact, it is not its own format: it is just a plain Unix mbox. The indexes are what makes the difference.
So for me once more, nothing much has improved in 10 years at least, much has regressed, and I'm happy to use IMAP but I find it hard to back up (remotely).
I have a tool or two to do the backup. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlch7igACgkQja8UbcUWM1xGoAD/SBvE7BQV3X1Z6T/mfNYoZyT8 OgWlYnYtCpsm+ysUjxABAJrUcQF5Lezq6/v1Y5XxziWjJyT1PItUbv0rm5Ld+WN9 =x6TZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2016-04-28 12:52, Xen wrote:
On Thu, 28 Apr 2016, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Body text search? Or just subject? Because here a body text search on my local dovecot often triggers a rescan of the mailboxes, which can take several hours (lucene)
That was another "are you kidding me?" moment for me.
That is the epitome of a dysfunctional solution.
No, no kidding. Maybe there is something wrong in my install, but when I request Thunderbird to do a text search, asking the server (in the same computer), it can take hours unless I did another search before that has already finishes. Of course, my mail store is big.
Something is definitely wrong, the whole idea of having the index is not to have to scan :-)
Maybe the indexes get out of sync when new mail is copied/apended to the folders.
The dovecot indexing interface has specific APIs for adding new mails etc. What you're describing should not happen. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (9.4°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - your free DNS host, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. wrote:
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On 2016-04-28 11:22, Per Jessen wrote:
For IMAP users, email indexes are often/usually maintained by the IMAP server (dovecot et al). With the imap index it probably takes a couple of seconds, without it, it took 11 seconds to search 57000 mails :-)
Body text search? Or just subject?
Header search on From:. Without a dovecot index though. Searching email body without an index took 3m40s (1676 hits on 57000 mails). Much faster with the index.
Because here a body text search on my local dovecot often triggers a rescan of the mailboxes, which can take several hours (lucene)
Lucene is java, isn't it? I use xapian (not publicly available, my own plugin). Not sure why a search should cause it to re-index, that doesn't sound right. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (8.9°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - dedicated server rental in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2016-04-28 13:04, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
Body text search? Or just subject?
Header search on From:. Without a dovecot index though. Searching email body without an index took 3m40s (1676 hits on 57000 mails). Much faster with the index.
Reasonable.
Because here a body text search on my local dovecot often triggers a rescan of the mailboxes, which can take several hours (lucene)
Lucene is java, isn't it?
No... unless my memory failed me and I got the wrong name. I don't have it on the laptop, I can't verify.
I use xapian (not publicly available, my own plugin). Not sure why a search should cause it to re-index, that doesn't sound right.
Well, I mean the index or rather database that is queried for the search. I guess that it thinks that the database doesn't match the folder, and it is rebuilt. My mail is distributed to folders using procmail. Originally, I used the internal mechanism of procmail, but this breaks dovecot indexing. On ask for a subject search with Pine I notice it has to to a rebuild of the index. Subsequent searches are instant. So I configured procmail to call /usr/lib/dovecot/dovecot-lda, which takes care of the indexing. It should not break. But some few little used folders are still using the old method, till I review the rest of the procmailrc file. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlch8MwACgkQja8UbcUWM1wBmgD/akv5YD7oGSfyXXRz3f+h7AG2 PKslWnbl1kw5WU3NaioA/0uJQT6r1o4CJaJ0ONoQwC13bDRLKXBdl1BlkhLUuyNx =1Wb3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, 28 Apr 2016, stakanov@freenet.de wrote:
P.s. T-bird does not install dependency because it was originally designed to be a stand alone product. Independent but also not collaborative with the respective desktop or O.S.. Thus...what "dependency" should a totally independent third party product bring in? Anyway, what would be the issues of the dependencies? Running your KDE on a very small tablet device w/o disk space? Because if not, this will not bother you to try. Anyway if you do not like it, you can stop akonadi and you will have thereafter no system load. Sure the first run of indexation of baloo / database will take about one day in my experience. If you set up at night and give the machine the whole night to work in standby you will be done without really noticing. Don't forget to setup spamassassin (you have to install the packages independently, they are not dependency) if you want a good spam filter with pop.
Will take about a day. He says it like it is similar to the amount of time your fridge will take to cool itself when first turned on. Or the amount of time it takes you to do your laundry. Or boil your rice........... You can download an older version of Thunderbird if you like and just copy it over the installed one and it will basically just work fine if you turn off automatic updates. I mean such a thing would never even be possible with that packaged-integrated suite. I don't mind Akonadi being integrated but the entire thing doesn't even have a name. It is referred to as the Akonadi stack. If they called it the KDE PIM Suite or something you'd have a starting point. I would prefer for it to become something you have to install as a suite. Compare it to the Nero suite on Windows. Nero is traditionally just a burning application but they included a whole lot more. Not saying that was in any way nice, but it is a suite. If Akonadi could be that type of suite, and if that team needed to package it themselves, and offer it as a whole, possibly by running their own repos or offering installer packages (like the installers on Windows) - that could draw from those repos, then you would have some starting point in turning it into something a little more amazing. Having your own repos, for instance, and possibly installer scripts utilising them, instantly means you have more control over offering previous versions, for instance. It also means the burden of your choices falls on you and not on packagers that want to have nothing more to do with it. This combination would enable the developers to focus on what is right and important and actually improve the product beyond what it can do now, because it is a dispersed product and the main burden of packaging falls on other people. If they could shift their focus that way -- and indeed it would turn it into something more like Thunderburd is today, but with more services, more programs, and more ability -- then I could see it actually becoming something important and something you could even port (and maybe even sell) to Windows customers. A way to monetize would simply be to allow installers through a Windows Store, for instance. There are people selling games there for as little as € 5,- and these are nice games and they are accessible. Open source does not preclude selling software. Then you'd keep it free on Linux and give people a reason to try the KDE desktop. Anyway that is my thought for this software package and it really should be a package IMHO. Regards, Xen.
I was curious about trying KMail5, but it needs a whole ton of hard dependencies to even install. PIM libraries, Akonadi, and on and on. When I install Thunderbird, it needs 0 dependencies. It doesn't even try Ah, KMail, yes. I really liked it when it was small and lean. Then they put a MySQL in its stomach, and I switched to Thunderbird. Akonadi could be turned off, but MySQL was sticky. Is it still in there?
/kaare -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
participants (5)
-
Carlos E. R. -
Kaare Rasmussen -
Per Jessen -
stakanov＠freenet.de -
Xen