[opensuse] Why does MS-Windows need no "initrd-equivalent" in order to boot w/a wider range of x86[-64] compat HW?
Perhaps someone can explain to me why Windows doesn't need a pre-boot ramdisk in order to boot, while Linux does? I know Windows doesn't have all the drivers for all the hardware linked in with it's kernel -- it's dynamically loaded out of it's "/bin (windows/sytem32)" dir. So why does the linux kernel have this extra complication while windows does not? It's a bit embarrassing, I would think to see the wide range of HW supported by Windows **without** a special 'initrd' for drivers, while linux still doesn't support the range of HW that Windows does (some, but not ALL of that being due to short-sited HW providers who can't provide open specs or drivers). So what is Windows doing 'right', that Linux is unable to do? Maybe this is a kernel question -- maybe OpenSuse can't doing anything about this -- is this the case -- is this some kernel limitation? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
El 28/11/12 21:07, Linda Walsh escribió:
Perhaps someone can explain to me why Windows doesn't need a pre-boot ramdisk in order to boot, while Linux does?
Linux does not need an initrd to boot, distributions do need it to support a wide variety of booting scenarios and not driving developers insane in the process. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
El 28/11/12 21:07, Linda Walsh escribió:
Perhaps someone can explain to me why Windows doesn't need a pre-boot ramdisk in order to boot, while Linux does?
Linux does not need an initrd to boot, distributions do need it to support a wide variety of booting scenarios and not driving developers insane in the process.
That deflects the question. What wide variety of booting scenarios are supported by linux that are not supported on Windows? Windows runs embedded, headless, on rescue disks, servers, desktops...um...where is the need? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, 2012-11-28 at 17:09 -0800, Linda Walsh wrote:
Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
El 28/11/12 21:07, Linda Walsh escribió:
Perhaps someone can explain to me why Windows doesn't need a pre-boot ramdisk in order to boot, while Linux does?
Linux does not need an initrd to boot, distributions do need it to support a wide variety of booting scenarios and not driving developers insane in the process.
That deflects the question.
What wide variety of booting scenarios are supported by linux that are not supported on Windows?
Windows runs embedded, headless, on rescue disks, servers, desktops...um...where is the need?
I have at least 5 different machines around here that can be installed from original MS-cd/dvd but lack support for all sorts of things. Some even don't recognise network hardware, so you need a different machine connected to the Net, and an USB-stick to download them. Hence most MS-machine come pre-installed with all of those additional drivers & patches. Out-of-the-box, most distro's recognise far much more hardware. It is now the other-way-round, compared with the situations in the 90's -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 11/29/2012 09:26 AM, Hans Witvliet wrote:
from original MS-cd/dvd but lack support for all sorts of things. Some even don't recognise network hardware, so you need a different machine connected to the Net, and an USB-stick to download them.
+1 Speaking of XP - yes, the beast is still alive - I even experienced once that it didn't support USB, so I had to burn a CD with the USB driver, and then also installed the drivers for the network card, the sound card, and the video card, ... Well, and going back to the 'initrd' topic: windows seems to reconfigure itself to boot from the hardware it is installed on - you see that when you try to boot from that disk in another PC. Therefore, I'd say, there is something similar to initrd on Windows, but they didn't do it "right", they simply got it plain wrong. Have a nice day, Berny -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Op 29-11-12 10:21, Bernhard Voelker schreef:
On 11/29/2012 09:26 AM, Hans Witvliet wrote:
from original MS-cd/dvd but lack support for all sorts of things. Some even don't recognise network hardware, so you need a different machine connected to the Net, and an USB-stick to download them. +1
Speaking of XP - yes, the beast is still alive - I even experienced once that it didn't support USB, so I had to burn a CD with the USB driver, and then also installed the drivers for the network card, the sound card, and the video card, ...
Well, and going back to the 'initrd' topic: windows seems to reconfigure itself to boot from the hardware it is installed on - you see that when you try to boot from that disk in another PC. Therefore, I'd say, there is something similar to initrd on Windows, but they didn't do it "right", they simply got it plain wrong.
Have a nice day, Berny
[slightly off-topic, as previous post..] Well, i recently 'discovered' 130GB of spare room on the HDD of my scan&print-server-pc. As it was 'ancient', XP was on it. The discovery made me decide to see if W7 could be put next to it, and afterward oS122, with a windows boot-loader, as i heard a myth, that the service-pack would not install trough a Linux-boot-loader. (SP1 installed so quickly, that i did not have time to install oS122 on it, so i was not able to prove anything about the boot-loader myth...) The W7 compatibility test app showed absence of original chip-set and video-drivers, and audio-driver, suitable for W7. So, W7 did not find drivers for my video-card, which was Intel, Mo-Bo embedded, and cooperated with the chip-set, so the video-memory could be shared from ram via the BIOS, with the original chip-set drivers, and left me with 640x480, very disappointing. Audio-drivers it fetched online by itself, as the Drivers for my Epson Stylus C64 Photo Edition, and even updated drivers for an installed pci-wifi card, that lacked updated XP drivers, and was/is unusable with XP. W7, however, has the opportunity, to even install W95, 98, W2K, millennium and Vista applications via problem-solver>admin settings. With this setting, i was able to install the XP Video-Drivers, so my resolution-settings became available, also 1400x900, my monitors default: Satisfying enough, despite the lack of some 'special' W7 possibilities. And even more: I was able to install my 'ancient' HP Scanjet 4100 C, with the original Win98 drivers, and some XP patches. A thing that was almost impossible with XP, where i had to use the alien 'Vuescan', a really very good app, which works with almost every scanner on the planet, and with all imaginable options, and far superior to the original app, except for the buttons. The buttons now bring the original interface, but they do not work with Vuescan. W7 has also a superior hw detection as to usb apparatus, compared with its predecessors. IMO, the added backward compatibility option is far out the most user friendly option ever seen in a Windows OS. I am 90% sure that all needed drivers to run the pc, are present in the default-kernel (and modules) in oS122, except maybe the scanner-driver, but i still have to check. -- Have a nice day, Oddball. OS: Linux 3.7.0-rc6-5-desktop i686 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@EeePc-Rob-SFN9 Systeem: openSUSE 12.2 (i586) KDE: 4.9.3 "release 520" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Hello, On Thu, 29 Nov 2012, Bernhard Voelker wrote:
Well, and going back to the 'initrd' topic: windows seems to reconfigure itself to boot from the hardware it is installed on - you see that when you try to boot from that disk in another PC. Therefore, I'd say, there is something similar to initrd on Windows, but they didn't do it "right", they simply got it plain wrong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boot_Configuration_Data#Boot_Configuration_Data http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTLDR http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_NT_startup_process http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Vista_startup_process http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ntoskrnl.exe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hal.dll HTH, -dnh -- The only languages that can comfortably be written with the repertoire of US-ASCII happen to be Latin, Swahili, Hawaiian and American English without most typographic frills. It is rumoured that there are more languages in the world. -- Roman Czyborra -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Hans Witvliet wrote:
I have at least 5 different machines around here that can be installed
This is another side point. I'm not talking about installation. I'm talking about why initrd is needed AFTER the OS is installed w/all it's drivers -- i.e. during normal usage. Windows doesn't need extra disks / drivers to be pre-loaded unless you are booting from a rescue disk/installation disk. Once you have it installed, Windows doesn't need such things. Why does linux need an initrd? It seems the SuSE folks are saying this is a requirement of the linux kernel -- yet windows doesn't have any similar analogous need. So why does linux need this? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
For the umteentht time: STOP the stupid cross posting and make up your mind as to where to discuss this. On Thu, 29 Nov 2012 16:52:24 -0800, Linda Walsh <suse@tlinx.org> wrote:
Windows doesn't need extra disks / drivers to be pre-loaded unless you are booting from a rescue disk/installation disk.
You have followed the links to the Wikipedia articles describing the boot mechanisms in various Windows versions that David posted yesterday? Philipp -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Philipp Thomas wrote:
For the umteentht time: STOP the stupid cross posting and make up your mind as to where to discuss this.
You tell me where it belongs. It's about Suse 12.2 and suse 12.3 and beyond. Last person I asked which list I should shut out of the discussion, I got no answer, so what's your answer.
Windows doesn't need extra disks / drivers to be pre-loaded unless you are booting from a rescue disk/installation disk.
You have followed the links to the Wikipedia articles describing the boot mechanisms in various Windows versions that David posted yesterday?
==== Why should I? I've read the Windows system internal's book written by a Windows "Fellow", that describes the process in considerably more detail in chapter 13. Maybe you should read the book 'Windows System Internals (5th ed). It tells you why -- boot sector loads a basic device aware booter like lilo, that can then boot images off of any of windows devices... None of them require an initrd. Any other questions? I had stopped cross posting the past several posts, but you seemed to be a case-in-point of not getting the fact that if it was NEVER appropriate to cross post, it could be blocked for everyone at the list-reflector. If it is the case that it is appropriate at times -- then what about a cross-topic subject like this isn't appropriate - what would be an example of something that would be if this isn't? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday, 2012-11-30 at 03:33 -0800, Linda Walsh wrote:
Philipp Thomas wrote:
For the umteentht time: STOP the stupid cross posting and make up your mind as to where to discuss this.
You tell me where it belongs.
Please post only to the opensuse mail list. Do not use the factory mail list. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlC4sGUACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UUowCdFZ4NUQS2ZLGokh6cjJhRHfHm NEMAoIAT1Cv3i0O8uFZUt1OwXcCZ/vAe =wi8B -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, 30 Nov 2012 14:10:51 +0100 (CET), "Carlos E. R." <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
Please post only to the opensuse mail list. Do not use the factory mail list.
Sorry Carlos, but it should be opensuse-factory and not opensuse as this is smothing that could only be introduced in a development version of openSUSE. Philipp -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 11/30/2012 12:41 PM, Philipp Thomas wrote:
On Fri, 30 Nov 2012 14:10:51 +0100 (CET), "Carlos E. R." <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
Please post only to the opensuse mail list. Do not use the factory mail list.
Sorry Carlos, but it should be opensuse-factory and not opensuse as this is smothing that could only be introduced in a development version of openSUSE.
Philipp
But since most people don't read Factory, the discussion will not gain traction if it does not appear on the most popular list(s). In fact, suggesting it only appear on Factory is like telling Linda to shut up and go stand in a particular corner where she can be ignored. A classic shut them up or shout them down tactic. -- _____________________________________ ---This space for rent--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 3:54 PM, John Andersen <jsamyth@gmail.com> wrote:
On 11/30/2012 12:41 PM, Philipp Thomas wrote:
On Fri, 30 Nov 2012 14:10:51 +0100 (CET), "Carlos E. R." <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
Please post only to the opensuse mail list. Do not use the factory mail list.
Sorry Carlos, but it should be opensuse-factory and not opensuse as this is smothing that could only be introduced in a development version of openSUSE.
Philipp
But since most people don't read Factory, the discussion will not gain traction if it does not appear on the most popular list(s). In fact, suggesting it only appear on Factory is like telling Linda to shut up and go stand in a particular corner where she can be ignored. A classic shut them up or shout them down tactic.
John, Like it or not, the main list is for discussion of the currently supported release(s) and hopefully Evergreen. Discussion about the future from a technical perspective is -factory.
From a conceptual perspective it would be -project.
FYI: -factory is an active list, so I totally disagree with your premise. In fact I believe the opposite is true, the majority of the "technical contributors" and decision makers are on -factory, much less so here. Greg Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday, 2012-11-30 at 21:41 +0100, Philipp Thomas wrote:
On Fri, 30 Nov 2012 14:10:51 +0100 (CET), "Carlos E. R." <> wrote:
Please post only to the opensuse mail list. Do not use the factory mail list.
Sorry Carlos, but it should be opensuse-factory and not opensuse as this is smothing that could only be introduced in a development version of openSUSE.
Ok, then post only to the factory mail list, but do not crospost to other list. Choose one list and stay there. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlC5KVcACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UESwCgiGUa/Y6CMX8Cf27ZcovIRUiE FZkAoIxHI8MKe5Y1FU+OGNi40svKgsZ+ =f87K -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, 30 Nov 2012 03:33:34 -0800, Linda Walsh <suse@tlinx.org> wrote:
You tell me where it belongs. It's about Suse 12.2 and suse 12.3 and beyond.
As such changes would only be done for future versions and never for released ones, the place is opensuse-factory.
Why should I?
As I wrote: if you give references for others to read, it's much better to give online references so that other folks can read up directly and maybe discuss in more depth.
I've read the Windows system internal's book written by a Windows "Fellow", that describes the process in considerably more detail in chapter 13.
I got that. But only few people will actually buy a book only to educate them for a discussion with you, wich was the reason I mentioned the wikipedia articles.
(5th ed). It tells you why -- boot sector loads a basic device aware booter like lilo, that can then boot images off of any of windows devices... None of them require an initrd.
How does it then load, let's say a SCSI driver to access a SAS disk? AND it limits your choice of file system for the boot device. So I'll rather take an initrd and don't have the severe limitations the windows way of booting has.
several posts, but you seemed to be a case-in-point of not getting the fact that if it was NEVER appropriate to cross post, it could be blocked for everyone at the list-reflector.
No, because there are cases where cross posting would be appropriate and anyway you can't really solve social problems in a technical way. Philipp -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
El 28/11/12 21:07, Linda Walsh escribió:
Perhaps someone can explain to me why Windows doesn't need a pre-boot ramdisk in order to boot, while Linux does?
Linux does not need an initrd to boot, distributions do need it to support a wide variety of booting scenarios and not driving developers insane in the process.
A really good answer! Clear and concise. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (1.9°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - free DNS hosting, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2012-11-28 16:07 (GMT-0800) Linda Walsh composed:
Perhaps someone can explain to me why Windows doesn't need a pre-boot ramdisk in order to boot, while Linux does?
I know Windows doesn't have all the drivers for all the hardware linked in with it's kernel -- it's dynamically loaded out of it's "/bin (windows/sytem32)" dir.
So why does the linux kernel have this extra complication while windows does not? It's a bit embarrassing, I would think to see the wide range of HW supported by Windows **without** a special 'initrd' for drivers, while linux still doesn't support the range of HW that Windows does (some, but not ALL of that being due to short-sited HW providers who can't provide open specs or drivers).
So what is Windows doing 'right', that Linux is unable to do?
Likely the registry, if you can call that doing anything right. Ever tried moving a Windows HD to another motherboard and booting it. I don't think it ever works. In recent Linux distros, it usually works, at least as long as the HD controller is in the same class. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Felix Miata wrote:
Likely the registry, if you can call that doing anything right.
Ever tried moving a Windows HD to another motherboard and booting it. I don't think it ever works.
It almost always works. What doesn't work is *licensing*. Hardware wise -- no problem. I've taken completely different HD images ( 15K SAS in one case, same image copied to SATA-based SDD's.. came up w/o a hitch).
In recent Linux distros, it usually works, at least as long as the HD controller is in the same class.
--- Same image on windows will boot on SSD/SATA/RAID/SAS.... unless you put in something it doesn't know about... but anything that is standards compatibile, will work for booting.. maybe not optimally, but it will work -- and then Win7 will usually update the driver if better settings are needed. But this is ANOTHER deflection of the question. No one is talking about moving disk images around -- we are talking about installing a system, then ... why does linux/suse need initrd and Windows does not? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 11/28/2012 07:07 PM, Linda Walsh pecked at the keyboard and wrote: Linda, You have been ask several times to stop cross posting, so once again please stop.
Perhaps someone can explain to me why Windows doesn't need a pre-boot ramdisk in order to boot, while Linux does?
I know Windows doesn't have all the drivers for all the hardware linked in with it's kernel -- it's dynamically loaded out of it's "/bin (windows/sytem32)" dir.
So why does the linux kernel have this extra complication while windows does not? It's a bit embarrassing, I would think to see the wide range of HW supported by Windows **without** a special 'initrd' for drivers, while linux still doesn't support the range of HW that Windows does (some, but not ALL of that being due to short-sited HW providers who can't provide open specs or drivers).
So what is Windows doing 'right', that Linux is unable to do?
Maybe this is a kernel question -- maybe OpenSuse can't doing anything about this -- is this the case -- is this some kernel limitation?
-- Ken Schneider SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 29/11/12 12:19, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:
On 11/28/2012 07:07 PM, Linda Walsh pecked at the keyboard and wrote:
Linda,
You have been ask several times to stop cross posting, so once again please stop.
And I have to add my voice to this request - even though the question/s asked is/are sensible. BC -- Using openSUSE 12.2 x86_64 KDE 4.9.3 & kernel 3.6.8-1 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel Corsair "Vengeance" RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX550Ti 1GB DDR5 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:
On 11/28/2012 07:07 PM, Linda Walsh pecked at the keyboard and wrote:
Linda,
You have been ask several times to stop cross posting, so once again please stop.
Um which list does one post questions about current and future development and current releases on? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday, 2012-11-29 at 17:35 -0800, Linda Walsh wrote:
You have been ask several times to stop cross posting, so once again please stop.
Um which list does one post questions about current and future development and current releases on?
Use ONE list ONLY. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlC4sPUACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VMaACdGpNkXeFjuaj2XUWgUOHlb6zV so4AoJVDCBrPyIV9lgbw6LmnwnrI13YJ =JRca -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
participants (14)
-
Basil Chupin -
Bernhard Voelker -
Carlos E. R. -
Cristian Rodríguez -
David Haller -
Felix Miata -
Greg Freemyer -
Hans Witvliet -
John Andersen -
Ken Schneider - openSUSE -
Linda Walsh -
Oddball -
Per Jessen -
Philipp Thomas