James Hatridge wrote:

On Friday, July 06, 2012 09:22:59 AM Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:

...

I also find your signature quite offensive. Would you please stop using it on this list.

No

How about I create a .sig referring readers to all of Germany's history of war crimes. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Saturday, July 07, 2012 06:08:11 AM Dirk Gently wrote:

James Hatridge wrote:

...

On Friday, July 06, 2012 09:22:59 AM Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:

...

I also find your signature quite offensive. Would you please stop using it on this list.

No

How about I create a .sig referring readers to all of Germany's history of war crimes.

Feel free -- Check out my stamp & postcard collection! Yankee GO HOME! Anti-US Propaganda on stamps, postcards, envelopes, and labels http://yankeegohome.18-t.com/ Check out my online Delcampe store http://www.delcampe.net/stores/warthogbulletin -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Hans Witvliet wrote:

On Fri, 2012-07-06 at 09:22 -0400, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote: <trim>

...

I also find your signature quite offensive. Would you please stop using it on this list.

Isn't it possible that any signature is automatically trimmed from each message, and never forwarded on the list?

For instance, my employer adds a completely irrelevant many-multi-line disclaimer (which laywers automatically dismiss as irrelevant)

/my/ lawyer adds his /own/ irrelevant disclaimer which I'm /sure/ he thinks is really important. ;-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 07/07/12 23:07, Hans Witvliet wrote:

On Fri, 2012-07-06 at 09:22 -0400, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote: <trim>

...

I also find your signature quite offensive. Would you please stop using it on this list.

Isn't it possible that any signature is automatically trimmed from each message, and never forwarded on the list?

I hope not. I try to put useful information into my sig, when posting in mailing lists. See below. Bob -- Bob Williams System: Linux 3.1.10-1.16-desktop Distro: openSUSE 12.1 (x86_64) with KDE Development Platform: 4.8.4 (4.8.4) "release 511" Uptime: 18:00pm up 3 days 5:05, 5 users, load average: 0.29, 0.34, 0.32 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 07/07/12 23:42, Frans de Boer wrote:

On 07/08/2012 12:35 AM, Bob Williams wrote:

...

On 07/07/12 23:07, Hans Witvliet wrote:

...

On Fri, 2012-07-06 at 09:22 -0400, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote: <trim>

...

I also find your signature quite offensive. Would you please stop using it on this list.

Isn't it possible that any signature is automatically trimmed from each message, and never forwarded on the list?

I hope not. I try to put useful information into my sig, when posting in mailing lists. See below.

Bob

Hi Bob, what is useful for you does not necessarily is useful to someone else.

Like me: who cares what your running for how long etc!

Regards, Frans.

This is a mailing list where people ask for help with the openSUSE operating system. One of the first questions they get asked, after "Have you googled for the answer?" is which version of openSUSE are you running, and which DE. It saves time to give that information automatically. Though I must say, I often get asked for that information anyway, so I guess most people ignore sigs. YMMV Bob -- Bob Williams System: Linux 3.1.10-1.16-desktop Distro: openSUSE 12.1 (x86_64) with KDE Development Platform: 4.8.4 (4.8.4) "release 511" Uptime: 18:00pm up 3 days 5:05, 5 users, load average: 0.29, 0.34, 0.32 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 07/08/2012 01:10 AM, Bob Williams wrote:

On 07/07/12 23:42, Frans de Boer wrote:

...

On 07/08/2012 12:35 AM, Bob Williams wrote:

...

On 07/07/12 23:07, Hans Witvliet wrote:

...

On Fri, 2012-07-06 at 09:22 -0400, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote: <trim>

...

I also find your signature quite offensive. Would you please stop using it on this list.

Isn't it possible that any signature is automatically trimmed from each message, and never forwarded on the list?

I hope not. I try to put useful information into my sig, when posting in mailing lists. See below.

Bob

Hi Bob, what is useful for you does not necessarily is useful to someone else.

Like me: who cares what your running for how long etc!

Regards, Frans.

This is a mailing list where people ask for help with the openSUSE operating system. One of the first questions they get asked, after "Have you googled for the answer?" is which version of openSUSE are you running, and which DE.

It saves time to give that information automatically. Though I must say, I often get asked for that information anyway, so I guess most people ignore sigs.

YMMV

Bob

Ok, I Understand it as long as your signature is relevant to the list, that is. Maybe I tend to generalize to much. Frans. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2012/07/08 00:07 (GMT+0200) Hans Witvliet composed:

Isn't it possible that any signature is automatically trimmed from each message, and never forwarded on the list?

Select and configure your email reader appropriately any you need not be presented with any .sig attached to an email message, unless perhaps via the many .sigs provided via uselessly full-quoted and 100% unedited replies to email with a .sig attached. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Billie Walsh said the following on 07/06/2012 09:25 AM:

Most of the email lists I'm on do not accept HTML. It's a security issue.

+1 -- The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Hi Per, On Friday, July 06, 2012 03:32:19 PM Per Jessen wrote:

James Hatridge wrote:

...

Hi all,

Is it not about time for this mailing list to come in to the 21th century? This is the ONLY email list that I have to turn off HTML

...

formatting to send a post to. Everytime I forget it I get this: Depending on which emailer you're using, you ought to store that as a preference of the email-address (of the list). Thunderbird has such an option.

So far you're the only one to give a real answer to this, thanks for that. Do you know if kmail has this option? I've not been able to find it. But this still bring us back to the first question. Why does this list not keep up with the times. Ten years ago, when almost no one had anything faster than 56k then it was understandable. But now even someone one out in the middle of no where Germany has at least DSL 2000 so this rule is silly. I'm on over 60 lists and am the owner of 4. This is the only list I have this problem with. JIM -- Check out my stamp & postcard collection! Yankee GO HOME! Anti-US Propaganda on stamps, postcards, envelopes, and labels http://yankeegohome.18-t.com/ Check out my online Delcampe store http://www.delcampe.net/stores/warthogbulletin -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Fri, Jul 6, 2012 at 7:58 PM, James Hatridge wrote:

So far you're the only one to give a real answer to this, thanks for that. Do you know if kmail has this option? I've not been able to find it. But this still bring us back to the first question. Why does this list not keep up with the times.

Please read the responses on this issue. The mailing list programs are not behind times. Text only mode is the setting. This is true for *all* FOSS technical mailing lists that I am a member (openSUSE, CentOS, Debian, bridge-utils, linux-kvm, openwrt, zeroshell, voyage linux ......) It has nothing to do with cheaper storage and/or faster bandwidth. Whereas, HTML formatted messages are the norm in Web forums and you will hardly see any pure text based discussions and that is OK for Web forum as you view them in your web browser.

Ten years ago, when almost no one had anything faster than 56k then it was understandable. But now even someone one out in the middle of no where Germany has at least DSL 2000 so this rule is silly. I'm on over 60 lists and am the owner of 4. This is the only list I have this problem with.

Not true Please see above. A counter point about your net connectivity speeds - in many developing nations the speeds that you are talking about is not even within the reach of enterprises or at very hefty price. In some nations even a dial up connection is the luxury of a few and their bandwidht is *metered*. Now imagine your **HTML rich** message getting loading into his/her mailbox. First of all it takes time and secondly his/her usage gets counted for every useless character of the HTML formatted message that goes into the mailbox. Therefore, plain text messages is the most suitable denominator IMO. Email/SMTP was meant for plain text. HTML formatted messages get encoded and sent as MIME attachment. It is true that most email clients have can handle this and decode the MIME attachment into your *rich* presentation format. And yes, KMail can be configured to send HTML or plain text depending on the recipient. I don't have it front of me but look around the settings section. My two cents. -- Arun Khan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Saturday 07 Jul 2012 13:29:31 Noel Butler wrote:

On Fri, 2012-07-06 at 20:26 +0530, Arun Khan wrote:

...

On Fri, Jul 6, 2012 at 7:58 PM, James Hatridge wrote:

...

So far you're the only one to give a real answer to this, thanks for that. Do you know if kmail has this option? I've not been able to find it. But this still bring us back to the first question. Why does this list not keep up with the times.

Please read the responses on this issue. The mailing list programs are not behind times. Text only mode is the setting. This is true for *all* FOSS technical mailing lists that I am a member (openSUSE, CentOS, Debian, bridge-utils, linux-kvm, openwrt, zeroshell, voyage linux ......)

It has nothing to do with cheaper storage and/or faster bandwidth.

It does, that's the excuse we used to give 15 plus years ago, it just stuck around, times change, hell, it was only late 2000's that I stopped using pine for all mail/usenet :)

...

Whereas, HTML formatted messages are the norm in Web forums and you will hardly see any pure text based discussions and that is OK for Web forum as you view them in your web browser.

...

Ten years ago, when almost no one had anything faster than 56k then it was understandable. But now even someone one out in the middle of no where Germany has at least DSL 2000 so this rule is silly. I'm on over 60 lists and am the owner of 4. This is the only list I have this problem with.> Not true Please see above.

Actually he is kinda right, just because the few lists you suggest don't use it, thousands more do use it.

If the list used a list manager from this century, it can be configured to convert HTML into TEXT avoiding pissing off users all the time.

what would the point be of the list manager converting it? More to the point, why would you want to have HTML emails other than to send spam advertising, attempts at hacking your system, having pretty pictures displayed in a software issues mailing list? I'm at a loss to see why you'd want HTML active in a mailing list.

Noel (Who for nearly two decades was anal about html posters - but know even I accept it is a reality and don't care - unless you send to our helpdesk/abusedesk blah blah then we enforce text)

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, 2012-07-07 at 02:01 -0500, Duaine Hechler wrote:

Furthermore, my hunch, is that, in order to streamline the email for the archives, all the HTML junk would have to be stripped out. Which means, more back office computer work.

mailman does it with ease, as dos IIRC ecartis, adds nothing measurable extra in resources.

Noel Butler wrote:

On Sat, 2012-07-07 at 07:30 +0100, ianseeks wrote:

...

what would the point be of the list manager converting it?

Avoiding those who do default to html from thinking their post is sent, and 5 hours later getting a bounce back, then having to resend it.

Personally, I don't want people posting to this list who are too stupid to either set their default mail to plaint text or to remember to figure out how to send a in plain text. It's not exactly rocket science. In fact, it's totally unlike rocket science. And infinitely easier. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, 2012-07-07 at 12:14 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

Noel Butler wrote:

...

If the list used a list manager from this century, it can be configured to convert HTML into TEXT avoiding pissing off users all the time.

The list manager is mlmmj, the latest version is dated 29 May 2012. See http://mlmmj.org/

inspired by ezmlm <-- Therein lies the problem From a quick squiz at it, It lacks much of what even Ecartis was doing back in 2005 (and for lightweight ML's I still use and recommend it) let alone Mailman's capabilities today.

On Mon, 2012-07-09 at 00:11 -0500, Duaine Hechler wrote:

...

inspired by ezmlm<-- Therein lies the problem

From a quick squiz at it, It lacks much of what even Ecartis was doing back in 2005 (and for lightweight ML's I still use and recommend it) let alone Mailman's capabilities today.

Innocent question but what is wrong with mailman list server ?

Absolutely nothing, Ecartis is more lightweight that's only reason it's my favourite, and it can be setup by a 12yo in seconds (and doesn't run in python LOL)

On Friday, July 06, 2012 08:28:01 AM James Hatridge wrote:

Hi Per,

On Friday, July 06, 2012 03:32:19 PM Per Jessen wrote:

...

James Hatridge wrote:

...

Hi all,

Is it not about time for this mailing list to come in to the 21th century? This is the ONLY email list that I have to turn off HTML

...

formatting to send a post to. Everytime I forget it I get this: Depending on which emailer you're using, you ought to store that as a preference of the email-address (of the list). Thunderbird has such an option.

So far you're the only one to give a real answer to this, thanks for that. Do you know if kmail has this option? I've not been able to find it. But this still bring us back to the first question. Why does this list not keep up with the times. Ten years ago, when almost no one had anything faster than 56k then it was understandable. But now even someone one out in the middle of no where Germany has at least DSL 2000 so this rule is silly. I'm on over 60 lists and am the owner of 4. This is the only list I have this problem with.

JIM I disagree. I could care less about pretty. That's all that HTML brings to the stage. Content is much more important. html gets sent right to the bit bucket.

Mike -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Per Jessen wrote:

Mike wrote:

...

On Friday, July 06, 2012 08:28:01 AM James Hatridge wrote:

...

Hi Per,

On Friday, July 06, 2012 03:32:19 PM Per Jessen wrote:

...

James Hatridge wrote:

...

Hi all,

Is it not about time for this mailing list to come in to the 21th century? This is the ONLY email list that I have to turn off HTML

...

formatting to send a post to. Everytime I forget it I get this: Depending on which emailer you're using, you ought to store that as a preference of the email-address (of the list). Thunderbird has such an option.

So far you're the only one to give a real answer to this, thanks for that. Do you know if kmail has this option? I've not been able to find it. But this still bring us back to the first question. Why does this list not keep up with the times. Ten years ago, when almost no one had anything faster than 56k then it was understandable. But now even someone one out in the middle of no where Germany has at least DSL 2000 so this rule is silly. I'm on over 60 lists and am the owner of 4. This is the only list I have this problem with.

JIM

I disagree. I could care less about pretty. That's all that HTML brings to the stage.

We're going OT, but HTML does allow a lot more than just being pretty. Sometimes presentation does matter, also in email.

I've yet to see ANYTHING written on this list which would be better presented in HTML as opposed to plain-text displayed in a monospace font. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 07/07/12 12:22, Per Jessen wrote:

Dirk Gently wrote:

...

Per Jessen wrote:

...

Mike wrote:

...

On Friday, July 06, 2012 08:28:01 AM James Hatridge wrote:

...

Hi Per,

On Friday, July 06, 2012 03:32:19 PM Per Jessen wrote:

...

James Hatridge wrote:

Hi everyone Text is great here on the list, but hopeless for those who run online marketing. L x -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-07-07 21:59, Felix Miata wrote:

On 2012/07/07 20:54 (GMT+0200) lynn composed:

...

but hopeless for those who run online marketing.

Dunno why you think that. HTML spam from online marketers hits my bit bucket unread, resulting in 0 purchases. Links in plain text email from online marketers occasionally here get a click, which >0 times has resulted in a purchase.

My bank sends me email in html, and I'm not going to throw it away just because I don't like it. I get the electricity bill, the water, the telephone... all in html. Many of the commercial sites I ask questions of, answer in html email, and if I delete it, it is me who is damaged, not they. At least they don't post using that MS abomination that can only be read with outlook (tnef). I don't care if they email me in plain text or in html, it is not that important, but to me, deleting html on sight is as absurd as insisting on fixed font with a typewriter nowdays. On the other hand, I receive lots of spam in plain text. Who cares!? - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/4nx0ACgkQIvFNjefEBxrFsQCfWBU9VVBg1UFDRVmtRt4zPD7h 6GUAn0vfH7g8r+Q2E8Afr9meCGYP9JTl =oNdA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-07-07 23:06, Frans de Boer wrote:

On 07/07/2012 10:42 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

Yes Carlos, finally a good comment.

Thanks :-)

@fanatics: email is nowadays in many forms. If it is delivered via SMTP, it's email, no matter the content! Nowhere in the specs it is stated that it must be text only. It can't be because of UTF formatting too. If feel that only xenophobes and/or fossils want 7-bit ASCII.

It is just another available technology.

However, every list has the right to it's own quirks. Not to your liking? ask nicely or quit using the list.

Absolutely!

And using offensive signatures is a sure way to get blocked from lists or banned by its users. Except for social media, stick to the point otherwise and let politics out of these none political lists.

That too. Although signatures should be mostly ignored regarding rules, I consider them as irrelevant to the message, a place where people can express whatever they want as long as it is short. At most, respond with another signature, equally short :-) Otherwise, the rules of the list should state what is allowed on the signatures - and AFAIR they say nothing: http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_list_netiquette#Signatures Signatures Signatures in emails should be not longer then 4 lines long. Information: McQuary Limit Thus, if the rules say nothing, we can not complain about any signature except on the size. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/4q1kACgkQIvFNjefEBxotjQCeJGFiuCkjKYP6XbQDnyiZQIwU p5EAmgKe8myra2Sxk/0hqn45QHuTQilr =uAHS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-07-08 16:27, Rajko wrote:

On Sat, 07 Jul 2012 23:34:17 +0200 "Carlos E. R." <> wrote: ...

...

Thus, if the rules say nothing, we can not complain about any signature except on the size. ...

Besides netiquette there are openSUSE rules that forbid questionable offtopic comments and that apply to all communications and web sites. There is no need to repeat that in mail list specific article.

Yes, it needs to. The general convention is that the signature is not part of the message and there is some liberty in what you post there. Remember Fidonet? They had special rules for the taglines. Besides, the general openSUSE rules would bind members, not participants on a mail list. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/5pLQACgkQIvFNjefEBxqBYgCfbWpOa80tRLvWz9GMSHF85XCH KmwAn1bTVYEta77naZHnBx+bWGz1WTxR =jMty -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin wrote:

On 08/07/12 07:34, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_list_netiquette#Signatures

Signatures

Signatures in emails should be not longer then 4 lines long.

Information: McQuary Limit

Thus, if the rules say nothing, we can not complain about any signature except on the size.

- -- Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla -http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

iEYEARECAAYFAk/4q1kACgkQIvFNjefEBxotjQCeJGFiuCkjKYP6XbQDnyiZQIwU p5EAmgKe8myra2Sxk/0hqn45QHuTQilr =uAHS -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

OK, speaking of "sigs" or "signatures", how long is your "signature" in the above post (and every other post of yours)?

4 lines of which one is empty. Suitably equipped email-readers know how to deal with the GPG "signature": http://files.jessen.ch/gnupg-signature-in-knode.jpeg -- Per Jessen, Zürich (18.9°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, 2012-07-09 at 13:11 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

OK, speaking of "sigs" or "signatures", how long is your "signature" in the above post (and every other post of yours)?

Two lines, as displayed by Thunderbird. If you see more, use other software >:-)

Oops, three lines, not counting the empty one. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAk/6yMQACgkQtTMYHG2NR9W/+QCfQrPcwTJdRclCYN6FZbnc96og OBoAniDA2dx2iOfBCvCDgoL6/LcWfcqK =73J1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-07-07 23:51, Lew Wolfgang wrote:

Also, has anyone actually visited the link that (I think) started this dustup? For the record, here it is again:

http://yankeegohome.18-t.com/

It's not what it seems, and it's not against a baseball team in New York, or against Americans.

You are right. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/4seIACgkQIvFNjefEBxoZBgCfbmQADLmxeK8F4MQ1yfUP9eqP nDQAoNjkimzE0QsxvLbBU98Hlzd6oUBE =rsjq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2012/07/07 22:42 (GMT+0200) Carlos E. R. composed:

My bank sends me email in html, and I'm not going to throw it away just because I don't like it.

Any bank that insisted on spamming my email box with "rich" text wouldn't be my bank any longer than the time it takes to switch banks to one that understands the meaning of customer service. Paying bills online doesn't equate to wanting bills received online. My personal financial information doesn't need to be scattered across a web of email servers and their backups. If and when I do want to see a bill online, I open a web browser, not an email app, and have encryption in play to prevent thieving. Paper statements fit the paper they are printed on, commonly using legible fonts, unlike most web sites and spam mail, which rarely prints to fit paper competently, if at all. Plus, I don't need to spend 10 minutes per page wasting toner and paper trying to print what I need without pointless web links and annoying advertising. I don't trust cloud storage to have what I want when I want it for as long as I want it, which paper bills give me automatically. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. said the following on 07/07/2012 07:28 PM:

You will have to. Thunderbird has just announced they stop development, go use webmail instead.

Oh? http://techcrunch.com/2012/07/06/so-thats-it-for-thunderbird/ <quote> Mozilla is not “stopping” Thunderbird development, it has just decided that: “continued innovation on Thunderbird is not the best use of our resources given our ambitious organizational goals.” </quote> Given that Thunderbird has gone though a spate of 'releases' recently, some stability and 'fixes' are going to be welcomed by many people <quote> We’re not “stopping” Thunderbird, but proposing we adapt the Thunderbird release and governance model in a way that allows both ongoing security and stability maintenance, as well as community-driven innovation and development for the product. </quote> So, the pressure is on for mobile development and innovation rather than desktop innovation. That's a long way from Thunderbird being discontinued. -- When languishing for solutions, don't ask "Have I got the correct answer?" The correct question is "Have I got the correct question?" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. said the following on 07/07/2012 08:55 PM:

On 2012-07-08 02:48, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

Carlos E. R. said the following on 07/07/2012 07:28 PM:

...

...

That's a long way from Thunderbird being discontinued.

http://www.osnews.com/comments/26159

Mozilla to cease development on Thunderbird

Linked by Thom Holwerda on Fri 6th Jul 2012 22:42 UTC Mozilla & Gecko clones Mozilla has announced it's ceasing development on Thunderbird; one more version will be released, and it'll be security updates from then on.

If your quoted link is right and they are not stopping, that's reassuring.

We'll see what Monday brings :-) But reassignment of resources to mobile makes sense. Priorities and all that. Thunderbird is too big - install base/user and all that - to vanish in a puff of smoke. If they tried there would be outrage, and being open source some others would take up at last some of the effort. -- There are 10 kinds of people in the world, those that understand trinary, those that don't, and those that confuse it with binary. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2012/07/08 02:55 (GMT+0200) Carlos E. R. composed:

Anton Aylward wrote:

...

http://techcrunch.com/2012/07/06/so-thats-it-for-thunderbird/

...

That's a long way from Thunderbird being discontinued.

http://www.osnews.com/comments/26159

Mozilla to cease development on Thunderbird

Linked by Thom Holwerda on Fri 6th Jul 2012 22:42 UTC Mozilla& Gecko clones Mozilla has announced it's ceasing development on Thunderbird; one more version will be released, and it'll be security updates from then on.

If your quoted link is right and they are not stopping, that's reassuring.

If you can't find an official link on the subject on Mozilla.org/com, better than a link to some random interpreter, a link to something actually written by a member of the Mozilla Foundation (from irc://moznet/thunderbird /topic): http://blog.lizardwrangler.com/2012/07/06/thunderbird-stability-and-communit... -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Felix Miata said the following on 07/07/2012 09:14 PM:

On 2012/07/08 02:55 (GMT+0200) Carlos E. R. composed:

...

Anton Aylward wrote:

...

...

http://techcrunch.com/2012/07/06/so-thats-it-for-thunderbird/

...

...

That's a long way from Thunderbird being discontinued.

...

http://www.osnews.com/comments/26159

...

Mozilla to cease development on Thunderbird

...

Linked by Thom Holwerda on Fri 6th Jul 2012 22:42 UTC Mozilla& Gecko clones Mozilla has announced it's ceasing development on Thunderbird; one more version will be released, and it'll be security updates from then on.

...

If your quoted link is right and they are not stopping, that's reassuring.

If you can't find an official link on the subject on Mozilla.org/com, better than a link to some random interpreter, a link to something actually written by a member of the Mozilla Foundation (from irc://moznet/thunderbird /topic): http://blog.lizardwrangler.com/2012/07/06/thunderbird-stability-and-communit...

Again: Lets see what Monday *and the official release of that letter* brings. -- For people who like peace and quiet: a phoneless cord. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-07-07 23:04, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:

On 07/07/12 14:54, lynn pecked at the keyboard and wrote:

...

Text is great here on the list, but hopeless for those who run online marketing.

Well, we don't do online marketing on this list do we!

No, we don't. But the comment was aimed at saying that there are scopes where html email is the norm, it is not a whole-sized evil :-) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/4rEoACgkQIvFNjefEBxpkSwCeKFqYOkVD+MCNyfTf9Tm5th27 YH0Anjf/homNGKM7eM1Rb33x8kl7zyC6 =9HQb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-07-08 00:15, Anton Aylward wrote:

Carlos E. R. said the following on 07/07/2012 05:38 PM:

...

But the comment was aimed at saying that there are scopes where html email is the norm, it is not a whole-sized evil :-)

Perhaps the question was badly phrased.

Try this.

Under what circumstances would HTML be absolutely and unequivocally *NECESSARY* on this list.

That is not in question. Rules say that there will be no html on this list, and that's that. Why argue it, then? You like arguing?

Or Elsewhere.

That's is irrelevant for this list :-) But as we don't have anything else to talk about, go ahead.

idiot/incompetent or has other, perhaps malicious, intent. The mail gets deleted.

The bills from my utilities, like the electricity bill, comes in html. Come on, delete it, and don't pay the bill! >:-P Then tell them that you deleted the bill and will not pay it because they posted in evil html, ans watch them laugh at you. Yes, they laugh, because reconnecting the electricity needs an extra payment equivalent to three months worth. Very nice, good business for them. Wish all their clients were that silly >:-) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/4uakACgkQIvFNjefEBxpLWwCdFcr1MYzAllAFJhyJYp10GhWd i8IAoJ6BCJOf8i19ORSuY6plWVWedoaX =N/E7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Tony Alfrey said the following on 07/07/2012 06:42 PM:

Carlos E. R. wrote: <snip>

...

The bills from my utilities, like the electricity bill, comes in html. Come on, delete it, and don't pay the bill! >:-P

I also receive such bills. But without exception, they all seem to send text format along w/ html. I must say that I very seldom have to revert to html for any email. Somehow, Thunderbird makes my life easy (in this respect).

Yes and if Carlos had read my mail rather than snipping it then he would have seen that's what I do as well. The idiots I referred to were those that do not send text along with html. -- The same applies for other kinds of long-lasting low-level pain. [...] The body's response to being jabbed, pierced, and cut is to produce endorphins. [...] So here's my programme for breaking that cycle of dependency on Windows: get left arm tattooed with dragon motif, buy a crate of Jamaican Hot! Pepper Sauce, get nipples pierced. With any luck that will produce enough endorphins to make Windows completely redundant, and I can then upgrade to Linux and get on with things. -- Pieter Hintjens -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 08/07/12 08:42, Tony Alfrey wrote:

Carlos E. R. wrote: <snip>

...

The bills from my utilities, like the electricity bill, comes in html. Come on, delete it, and don't pay the bill! >:-P

I also receive such bills. But without exception, they all seem to send text format along w/ html. I must say that I very seldom have to revert to html for any email. Somehow, Thunderbird makes my life easy (in this respect).

Maybe I'm just lucky ;-)

No, you're not "lucky". It's all part and parcel of how Thunderbird works - if you are smart enough to use its configuration options in Edit>Preferences. BC -- Using openSUSE 12.2 x86_64 KDE 4.8.4 & kernel 3.4.4.2 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel Corsair "Vengeance" RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX550Ti 1GB DDR5 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-07-08 00:45, Dirk Gently wrote:

I don't know how it is in Spain, but a bill in e-mail is only a convenience. It's not a legally enforceable demand for payment until it's delivered on paper.

Not here. A signed PDF is legally binding, the post simply announces or transports it.

And under our consumer protection laws, they have to send you a paper-mail account statement every month no matter how you pay (cash, check, credit card, online payment or electronic transfer).

Not here. You must live on a very undeveloped country, still relying on decayed and dead trees instead of the modern bright electrons :-P - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/4wRcACgkQIvFNjefEBxrjxgCeNGsgVY26UOceDG8/4xnO0ZqO dh0AnRxk2vcIQENDQl2vDk19L5QDbcbn =uZU5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 07/08/2012 08:32 PM, Noel Butler wrote:

...

...

And under our consumer protection laws, they have to send you a

...

...

paper-mail account statement every month no matter how you pay (cash, check, credit card, online payment or electronic transfer).

Not here.

Nor here, nor in U.K or U.S. going by my above statement, or is the rule in U.S. only applicable for U.S. to U.S. residents? Who knows...

Well, individual states in the US may have different regulations, but here in California paper invoices are optional. Different creditors may have different procedures, but I'm not aware of any state-wide rules/regulations/laws. The default delivery method is by post, but the customer may opt out in favor of email delivery if they choose. I suspect that any notifications of service interruption for non-payment of utilities may have to be delivered by post. You can also opt in for automatic payment of regular bills too. Regards, Lew -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 09/07/12 15:40, Noel Butler wrote:

On Sun, 2012-07-08 at 21:12 -0700, Lew Wolfgang wrote:

...

...

Nor here, nor in U.K or U.S. going by my above statement, or is the rule in U.S. only applicable for U.S. to U.S. residents? Who knows...

Well, individual states in the US may have different regulations, but here in California paper invoices are optional. Ahh, OK, LA is where I deal with, thanks for making it clear it's not a blanket U.S. wide thing.

(I've had an abundance of offlist replies telling me I should listen to the rain for advice more than that particular poster)

Oh, you mean...... the one I call "a mental giant and rocket scientist"? He is what would be call a "General Practitioner" in the medical world. "A General Practitioner is one who learns less and less about more and more so that, finally, he knows nothing about everything." BC -- Using openSUSE 12.2 x86_64 KDE 4.8.4 & kernel 3.4.4.2 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel Corsair "Vengeance" RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX550Ti 1GB DDR5 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, 2012-07-07 at 21:29 -0400, James Knott wrote:

Dirk Gently wrote:

...

I don't know how it is in Spain, but a bill in e-mail is only a convenience. It's not a legally enforceable demand for payment until it's delivered on paper.

In Canada, e-mail with a digital signature is considered to be a legally signed document. As for bills, if it's something that occurs regularly, then you expect it and you've likely agreed to keep your account up to date. Also, it's very easy to access the web sites to check your account etc.

All very well, but why should other list member be confronted with sigs? Not relevant to put it mildly. hw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Hans Witvliet wrote:

...

In Canada, e-mail with a digital signature is considered to be a legally

...

signed document. As for bills, if it's something that occurs regularly, then you expect it and you've likely agreed to keep your account up to date. Also, it's very easy to access the web sites to check your account etc. All very well, but why should other list member be confronted with sigs? Not relevant to put it mildly. ????

The signatures I was referring to are X.509 digital certificates, which can be used to encrypt and sign email. The certificates are issued by or traceable to some certificate authority such as Verisign. You wouldn't normally use them with a mail list. Even if you did, it's not something that appears in the message. If you receive a signed message, you'd see an icon, at the bottom of your email app, that indicates it is a signed message. I have signed this message¹, so you can see what it looks like. Having received my public certificate, you are now able to send me an encrypted email 1. Assuming it makes it through the mail list.

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

The certificates are issued by or traceable to some certificate authority such as Verisign. You wouldn't normally use them with a mail list. Even if you did, it's not something that appears in the message. If you receive a signed message, you'd see an icon, at the bottom of your email app, that indicates it is a signed message. I have signed this message¹, so you can see what it looks like. Having received my public certificate, you are now able to send me an encrypted email

1. Assuming it makes it through the mail list.

It did, although Thunderbird doesn't show it prominently. There is no key icon at the bottom, but a closed envelop with a sealing wax (spot?) at the top.

Yes, that indicates that the signature was valid. If the envelope is red, it is invalid. When you click on it, you'll find out why.

PGP signed posts get a green bar the width of the email window.

I guess the Mozilla guys have their own preferences :-) -- Per Jessen, Zürich (18.7°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Dirk Gently wrote:

I don't know how it is in Spain, but a bill in e-mail is only a convenience. It's not a legally enforceable demand for payment until it's delivered on paper.

Sure it is. Many countries only require a contract - how or whether an invoice is delivered is completely irrelevant wrt whether it can be enforced. Some places require a paper copy for auditting purposes, but delivery might still be via email as a PDF document. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (18.5°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-07-08 02:37, Anton Aylward wrote:

Lets see what I did say:

...

...

In Thunderbird I can set to 'display plain text only'. If the message is *only* HTML then I can conclude that the sender hasn't bothered wit a plain text segment under MIME and is ether and idiot/incompetent or has other, perhaps malicious, intent. The mail gets deleted.

Mail from my bank etc etc *does* have a plain text segment.

So mail from my bank, utilities etc etc does *NOT* get deleted and I don't have the problems you accuse me of.

I'm not accusing anybody. The emails _I_ get from banks, utilities, etc, contain html, and some contain text, and some do not. I do not delete an email just because it is sent in html only, I delete them if they are spam, regardless if they are plain text or html or a combination. I'm tolerant, that's all. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/41+oACgkQIvFNjefEBxpFEgCg3AZMkAE7qlmoq0xIgvNFv1lW j48AoIWWIqRlatuOtocA+vTglyhRjfB3 =RtyI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. wrote:

The bills from my utilities, like the electricity bill, comes in html. Come on, delete it, and don't pay the bill! >:-P

With my bills, I am sent an email advising there's a new statement ready. I can then click on the link to see or download the bill. Of course, I can always go to the web site at any time to see my account status etc. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 08/07/12 08:35, Carlos E. R. wrote: [.............]

The bills from my utilities, like the electricity bill, comes in html. Come on, delete it, and don't pay the bill! >:-P

Then tell them that you deleted the bill and will not pay it because they posted in evil html, ans watch them laugh at you. Yes, they laugh, because reconnecting the electricity needs an extra payment equivalent to three months worth. Very nice, good business for them. Wish all their clients were that silly >:-)

Please, Carlos, don't get all dramatic and carried away. Doesn't suit you. You are using Thunderbird (13.0) [and I am using TB v16.0a1 Daily - just for the record]. My ISP, and other institutions, sends me mail in HTML and, as you know, in Thunderbird you have the ability to not display the contents of an HTML file received as personal mail from someone like your bank; and you can then choose to either display the HTML from the remote site in that message or ignore the HTML and simply read the ASCII bits which appear on your screen. BC -- Using openSUSE 12.2 x86_64 KDE 4.8.4 & kernel 3.4.4.2 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel Corsair "Vengeance" RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX550Ti 1GB DDR5 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 09/07/12 17:39, Marcus Meissner wrote:

On Mon, Jul 09, 2012 at 05:32:29PM +1000, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

On 08/07/12 08:35, Carlos E. R. wrote:

[.............]

...

The bills from my utilities, like the electricity bill, comes in html. Come on, delete it, and don't pay the bill! >:-P

Then tell them that you deleted the bill and will not pay it because they posted in evil html, ans watch them laugh at you. Yes, they laugh, because reconnecting the electricity needs an extra payment equivalent to three months worth. Very nice, good business for them. Wish all their clients were that silly >:-) Please, Carlos, don't get all dramatic and carried away. Doesn't suit you.

You are using Thunderbird (13.0) [and I am using TB v16.0a1 Daily - just for the record].

My ISP, and other institutions, sends me mail in HTML and, as you know, in Thunderbird you have the ability to not display the contents of an HTML file received as personal mail from someone like your bank; and you can then choose to either display the HTML from the remote site in that message or ignore the HTML and simply read the ASCII bits which appear on your screen. What this discussion did not bring up is that there is a difference between the Bank/Provider E-Mails in HTML and regular E-Mails in HTML.

You will not need to answer or reply to Bank/Provider/OtherInfo HTML E-Mails as these are information only!

Compared to mails on this list, where people surely will need to be able to reply.

Some of us (including me) even use console mailreaders still for efficiency, and replying on HTML emails is near to impossible with them.

Ciao, Marcus

Not good, not good at all, Marcus :-( . Bad PR for openSUSE when your organisation is still using 'Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01)' 8-) . BC -- Using openSUSE 12.2 x86_64 KDE 4.8.4 & kernel 3.4.4.2 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel Corsair "Vengeance" RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX550Ti 1GB DDR5 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, 2012-07-09 at 09:39 +0200, Marcus Meissner wrote:

Compared to mails on this list, where people surely will need to be able to reply.

Some of us (including me) even use console mailreaders still for efficiency, and replying on HTML emails is near to impossible with them.

eh? Pine was able to render HTML emails properly a great many, many years ago. I note your using mutt, but a 5 yo version, never liked mutt so rarely use it, so dunno if modern versions are capable or not.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-07-09 09:32, Basil Chupin wrote:

On 08/07/12 08:35, Carlos E. R. wrote:

[.............]

...

The bills from my utilities, like the electricity bill, comes in html. Come on, delete it, and don't pay the bill! >:-P

Then tell them that you deleted the bill and will not pay it because they posted in evil html, ans watch them laugh at you. Yes, they laugh, because reconnecting the electricity needs an extra payment equivalent to three months worth. Very nice, good business for them. Wish all their clients were that silly >:-)

Please, Carlos, don't get all dramatic and carried away. Doesn't suit you.

Dramatic? No, I was intentionally ironic and teasing you :-P

You are using Thunderbird (13.0) [and I am using TB v16.0a1 Daily - just for the record].

That time, yes. I also use Pine.

My ISP, and other institutions, sends me mail in HTML and, as you know, in Thunderbird you have the ability to not display the contents of an HTML file received as personal mail from someone like your bank; and you can then choose to either display the HTML from the remote site in that message or ignore the HTML and simply read the ASCII bits which appear on your screen.

Yes, and in Thunderbird I have it set to show the html and respond in kind. That is mostly why I use it. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/6wpsACgkQIvFNjefEBxrcZQCgq58Y0qPPPojqhSI81RCjIlqJ SxoAoNJQY4ghudSh/oo5mmJhePsbWOOB =hslO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 08/07/12 08:38, Frans de Boer wrote: [........]

Yes, there are two sides and each had ample time to ventilate there view. Now leave it to the list maintainers if they have learned anything and are willing or nor to change the settings. Either way, the list continues with or without HTML email messages.

No, the list does not continue of the basis you state. The list continues *without* HTML e-mail messages because HTML messages are NOT permitted on these lists. BC -- Using openSUSE 12.2 x86_64 KDE 4.8.4 & kernel 3.4.4.2 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel Corsair "Vengeance" RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX550Ti 1GB DDR5 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 07/07/12 20:22, Per Jessen wrote:

Dirk Gently wrote:

...

Per Jessen wrote:

...

Mike wrote:

...

...

Hi Per,

...

James Hatridge wrote: > Hi all, > > Is it not about time for this mailing list to come in to the 21th > century? This is the ONLY email list that I have to turn off HTML > formatting to send a post to. Everytime I forget it I get this: Depending on which emailer you're using, you ought to store that as a preference of the email-address (of the list). Thunderbird has such an option. So far you're the only one to give a real answer to this, thanks for that. Do you know if kmail has this option? I've not been able to find it. But this still bring us back to the first question. Why does this list not keep up with the times. Ten years ago, when almost no one had anything faster than 56k then it was understandable. But now even someone one out in the middle of no where Germany has at least DSL 2000 so this rule is silly. I'm on over 60 lists and am the owner of 4. This is the only list I have

On Friday, July 06, 2012 03:32:19 PM Per Jessen wrote: this problem with.

JIM I disagree. I could care less about pretty. That's all that HTML brings to the stage. We're going OT, but HTML does allow a lot more than just being

On Friday, July 06, 2012 08:28:01 AM James Hatridge wrote: pretty. Sometimes presentation does matter, also in email.

I've yet to see ANYTHING written on this list which would be better presented in HTML as opposed to plain-text displayed in a monospace font. I agree. I wasn't arguing that HTML would have any use on a mailing list.

Then what were you arguing in favour of? Posts to this mail list, or any other mailing list, are e-mails. BC -- Using openSUSE 12.2 x86_64 KDE 4.8.4 & kernel 3.4.4.2 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel Corsair "Vengeance" RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX550Ti 1GB DDR5 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 09/07/12 16:47, Per Jessen wrote:

Basil Chupin wrote:

...

On 07/07/12 20:22, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Dirk Gently wrote:

...

Per Jessen wrote:

...

Mike wrote:

...

On Friday, July 06, 2012 08:28:01 AM James Hatridge wrote: > Hi Per, > > On Friday, July 06, 2012 03:32:19 PM Per Jessen wrote: >> James Hatridge wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> >>> Is it not about time for this mailing list to come in to the >>> 21th century? This is the ONLY email list that I have to turn >>> off HTML formatting to send a post to. Everytime I forget it I >>> get this: >> Depending on which emailer you're using, you ought to store that >> as a >> preference of the email-address (of the list). Thunderbird has >> such an option. > So far you're the only one to give a real answer to this, thanks > for that. Do you know if kmail has this option? I've not been > able to find it. But this still bring us back to the first > question. Why does this list not keep up with the times. Ten > years ago, when almost no one had anything faster than 56k then > it was understandable. But now even someone one out in the middle > of no where Germany has at least DSL 2000 so this rule is silly. > I'm on over 60 lists and am the owner of 4. This is the only list > I have this problem with. > > JIM I disagree. I could care less about pretty. That's all that HTML brings to the stage. We're going OT, but HTML does allow a lot more than just being pretty. Sometimes presentation does matter, also in email.

I've yet to see ANYTHING written on this list which would be better presented in HTML as opposed to plain-text displayed in a monospace font. I agree. I wasn't arguing that HTML would have any use on a mailing list. Then what were you arguing in favour of? I was arguing against the _general_ suggestion that "HTML is only about being pretty". Presentation matters - it is about being _effective_.

...

Posts to this mail list, or any other mailing list, are e-mails. If we'd stuck to that limited topic, Carlos very succinctly finished off the thread long ago - "there is no HTML allowed on this list, end of story". (I think it was Carlos).

Then why is this thread still continuing...? BC -- Using openSUSE 12.2 x86_64 KDE 4.8.4 & kernel 3.4.4.2 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel Corsair "Vengeance" RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX550Ti 1GB DDR5 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 09/07/12 19:30, Per Jessen wrote:

Basil Chupin wrote:

...

On 09/07/12 16:47, Per Jessen wrote:

...

If we'd stuck to that limited topic, Carlos very succinctly finished off the thread long ago - "there is no HTML allowed on this list, end of story". (I think it was Carlos). Then why is this thread still continuing...? Because we didn't listen to Carlos. :-)

And, unfortunately, Carlos did not listen to himself....:-( . BC -- Using openSUSE 12.2 x86_64 KDE 4.8.4 & kernel 3.4.4.2 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel Corsair "Vengeance" RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX550Ti 1GB DDR5 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 07/07/12 20:11, Per Jessen wrote:

Mike wrote:

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On Friday, July 06, 2012 08:28:01 AM James Hatridge wrote:

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Hi Per,

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Hi all,

Is it not about time for this mailing list to come in to the 21th century? This is the ONLY email list that I have to turn off HTML formatting to send a post to. Everytime I forget it I get this: Depending on which emailer you're using, you ought to store that as a

James Hatridge wrote: preference of the email-address (of the list). Thunderbird has such an option. So far you're the only one to give a real answer to this, thanks for

On Friday, July 06, 2012 03:32:19 PM Per Jessen wrote: that. Do you know if kmail has this option? I've not been able to find it. But this still bring us back to the first question. Why does this list not keep up with the times. Ten years ago, when almost no one had anything faster than 56k then it was understandable. But now even someone one out in the middle of no where Germany has at least DSL 2000 so this rule is silly. I'm on over 60 lists and am the owner of 4. This is the only list I have this problem with.

JIM I disagree. I could care less about pretty. That's all that HTML brings to the stage. We're going OT, but HTML does allow a lot more than just being pretty. Sometimes presentation does matter, also in email.

Tell me, what exactly would HTML bring to any message in this technical mail list, or any other mail list for that matter? What exactly would make a "presentation" in this so much better if one used HTML? You want to emphasise a word by writing it in bold letters? Simply add a "*" before and after the word, like this *word*. You want to emphasise a word by underlining it? Place an underscore before and after the word. You want to write a word in italics? This is also possible (but I have forgotten what that is at the moment). You want to add a smiley? Use, say, Thunderbird, which has a menu of smileys to add to your post. Or use the ASCII codes to create smileys, such as ":-)". Oh, you want to post a pretty picture in your post? Then you have the option of using, say, something like picpaste or Suse Paste where you simply include in your message the URL of your pretty picture. And the nice thing about using these is that *nobody* on this list will get thousands of unwanted bytes which go to make up a picture which the poster thought was cute and wanted to foist it on everybody here (for example) - and only those who go to the URL will download the thousands of bytes making up the pretty picture. The only sensible answer so far I have read is from Arun Khan. If you overlooked his post, go back, find it, and read it. Most of the people here seem to be sitting behind computers which are connected to high speed broadband or are connected to the internet for which they pay nothing out of their own pockets but are using company resources to do their internet communications or do pay for their own internet usage but have a job and an income which allows them the luxury of cluttering their volume usage with useless crap and paying for it. Reread what Arun wrote. BC -- Using openSUSE 12.2 x86_64 KDE 4.8.4 & kernel 3.4.4.2 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel Corsair "Vengeance" RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX550Ti 1GB DDR5 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 09/07/12 16:57, Per Jessen wrote:

Basil Chupin wrote:

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On 07/07/12 20:11, Per Jessen wrote:

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Mike wrote:

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Hi Per,

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James Hatridge wrote: > Hi all, > > Is it not about time for this mailing list to come in to the 21th > century? This is the ONLY email list that I have to turn off HTML > formatting to send a post to. Everytime I forget it I get this: Depending on which emailer you're using, you ought to store that as a preference of the email-address (of the list). Thunderbird has such an option. So far you're the only one to give a real answer to this, thanks for that. Do you know if kmail has this option? I've not been able to find it. But this still bring us back to the first question. Why does this list not keep up with the times. Ten years ago, when almost no one had anything faster than 56k then it was understandable. But now even someone one out in the middle of no where Germany has at least DSL 2000 so this rule is silly. I'm on over 60 lists and am the owner of 4. This is the only list I have

On Friday, July 06, 2012 03:32:19 PM Per Jessen wrote: this problem with.

JIM I disagree. I could care less about pretty. That's all that HTML brings to the stage. We're going OT, but HTML does allow a lot more than just being

On Friday, July 06, 2012 08:28:01 AM James Hatridge wrote: pretty. Sometimes presentation does matter, also in email. Tell me, what exactly would HTML bring to any message in this technical mail list, or any other mail list for that matter? What exactly would make a "presentation" in this so much better if one used HTML? See my reply to Felix on opensuse-offtopic.

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You want to write a word in italics? This is also possible (but I have forgotten what that is at the moment). /like this/

Ah, that's it! Thanks :-) BC -- Using openSUSE 12.2 x86_64 KDE 4.8.4 & kernel 3.4.4.2 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel Corsair "Vengeance" RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX550Ti 1GB DDR5 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Friday 06 Jul 2012 16:28:01 James Hatridge wrote:

So far you're the only one to give a real answer to this, thanks for that. Do you know if kmail has this option? I've not been able to find it. But this still bring us back to the first question. Why does this list not keep up with the times. Ten years ago, when almost no one had anything faster than 56k then it was understandable. But now even someone one out in the middle of no where Germany has at least DSL 2000 so this rule is silly. I'm on over 60 lists and am the owner of 4. This is the only list I have this problem with.

See http://sudhendu.in/node/13 It's not as simple as setting it as a flag on a mailing list 'contact' - you have to set it in the reply template for particular user identities or mail folders. Some of us have no choice but to correspond with people who would, unfortunately, view us as cranks if we did not reply in HTML with TOFU... Will -- Will Stephenson, openSUSE Board, Booster, KDE Developer SUSE LINUX GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstraße 5 90409 Nürnberg Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-07-06 21:21, Will Stephenson wrote:

Some of us have no choice but to correspond with people who would, unfortunately, view us as cranks if we did not reply in HTML with TOFU...

Oh, absolutely. Some people "hate" html email, some people "hate" plain email, and "some" of use have to correspond with both types. We do without fuss. In the end, it is a case of respecting the rules of each case. Here the rule is "no html", so simply respect it and don't argue it (because it is not going to change, it is pointless) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/3XFYACgkQIvFNjefEBxpnbQCdEMDm5nqBxD5G2hGXTkVutqCN 4kwAn2hsfUJBt/XlrG3Vm7Vm24PYdFbU =ZLq1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Felix Miata wrote:

On 2012/07/06 15:06 (GMT+0200) James Hatridge composed:

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Is it not about time for this mailing list to come in to the 21th century? This is the ONLY email list that I have to turn off HTML formatting to send a post to.... Personally I'm sick of always having to send posts twice. How about fixing this.

It isn't broken. "HTML email" isn't email, it's web pages and all their associated wasteful and annoying overhead delivered via smtp. Those things arriving here via filtering are diverted into my bit bucket unread. When I want to view a web page, I'll open it in a web browser, not an email app.

I couldn't have put it better myself. People who sent out HTML in email are just plain fucking rude.

http://fm.no-ip.com/Inet/htmlemail.html explains more.

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Op 06-07-12 16:09, C schreef:

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It is as it was/should be. Please remove your offensive sig. Not that I care one bit about anyone's signature lines... but if anyone here bothered to go check out James' website instead of having a mindless knee-jerk reaction... you'd clearly see it's nothing to be offended about (a collection of stamps and postcards from WWI, WWII,

On Fri, Jul 6, 2012 at 3:56 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote: the Cold War era and so on). You are all being rather silly about this.

C.

Yes i agree, i think it is a rather rare collection! I think it is good these things are remembered... -- Have a nice day.. Oddball. OS: Linux 3.1.10-1.16-desktop i686 Huidige gebruiker: odd@Eeepc-seashell4c Systeem: openSUSE 12.1 (i586) KDE: 4.8.4 (4.8.4) "release 513" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Patrick Shanahan said the following on 07/06/2012 09:56 AM:

Learn to control your *chosen* email client.

+1 I see <quote> User-Agent: KMail/4.7.2 (Linux/3.1.9-1.4-desktop; KDE/4.7.2; x86_64; ; ) </quote> The KMail handbook docs.kde.org/stable/en/kdepim/kmail/kmail.pdf does say in section 3.3 <quote> Note that HTML messages are often regarded as an annoyance; therefore, you should avoid sending HTML messages if possible. Particularly, you should never send HTML messages to a mailing list unless HTML messages are explicitly allowed. </quote> More to the point, the rest of that section makes it clear that you have to explicitly set things up to send HTML mail: <quote> In order to be able to create HTML messages you first have to enable the markup tools. To do this enable Formatting (HTML) in the Options menu. </quote>

From this I gather that HTML is not the normal mode.

It is as it was/should be. Please remove your offensive sig.

Ethnic hate, unless its being parodied (which I must admit is not always successful in email, though Dave Barry seems to manage it - sometimes) is not acceptable. -- Misfortune shows those who are not really friends. Aristotle (384 BC - 322 BC), Eudemian Ethics -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org