On Friday, July 06, 2012 09:22:59 AM Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:

I also find your signature quite offensive. Would you please stop using it on this list.

No -- Check out my stamp & postcard collection! Yankee GO HOME! Anti-US Propaganda on stamps, postcards, envelopes, and labels http://yankeegohome.18-t.com/ Check out my online Delcampe store http://www.delcampe.net/stores/warthogbulletin -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Dirk Gently wrote:

James Hatridge wrote:

...

On Friday, July 06, 2012 09:22:59 AM Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:

...

I also find your signature quite offensive. Would you please stop using it on this list.

No

How about I create a .sig referring readers to all of Germany's history of war crimes.

Please don't, it'll only make someone do the same with America's ditto. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (20.8°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Fri, 2012-07-06 at 09:22 -0400, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote: <trim>

I also find your signature quite offensive. Would you please stop using it on this list.

Isn't it possible that any signature is automatically trimmed from each message, and never forwarded on the list? For instance, my employer adds a completely irrelevant many-multi-line disclaimer (which laywers automatically dismiss as irrelevant) And even worse, i can not disable it, as it get automatically added to each message after my own sig. hw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, 2012-07-07 at 15:33 -0700, Tony Alfrey wrote:

Hans Witvliet wrote:

...

On Fri, 2012-07-06 at 09:22 -0400, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote: <trim>

...

I also find your signature quite offensive. Would you please stop using it on this list.

Isn't it possible that any signature is automatically trimmed from each message, and never forwarded on the list?

For instance, my employer adds a completely irrelevant many-multi-line disclaimer (which laywers automatically dismiss as irrelevant)

/my/ lawyer adds his /own/ irrelevant disclaimer which I'm /sure/ he thinks is really important. ;-)

Typing too fast, Company lawyers think it its relevant Others lawyers say it cuts no wood and is a mere waste of electrons ;-) hw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 07/08/2012 12:35 AM, Bob Williams wrote:

On 07/07/12 23:07, Hans Witvliet wrote:

...

On Fri, 2012-07-06 at 09:22 -0400, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote: <trim>

...

I also find your signature quite offensive. Would you please stop using it on this list.

Isn't it possible that any signature is automatically trimmed from each message, and never forwarded on the list?

I hope not. I try to put useful information into my sig, when posting in mailing lists. See below.

Bob

Hi Bob, what is useful for you does not necessarily is useful to someone else. Like me: who cares what your running for how long etc! Regards, Frans. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-07-08 01:10, Bob Williams wrote:

This is a mailing list where people ask for help with the openSUSE operating system. One of the first questions they get asked, after "Have you googled for the answer?" is which version of openSUSE are you running, and which DE.

It saves time to give that information automatically. Though I must say, I often get asked for that information anyway, so I guess most people ignore sigs.

Absolutely :-p We have to. Some people are reliable in what their signatures say. Others may be using a system for email, and another for having problems with :-) Or, the signature could be old, forgotten and irrelevant. If you ask for mine, I don't remember what it says :-p - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/4wugACgkQIvFNjefEBxoYDQCgxAX3gsDXsh/QuBlPuOhdGtfH v4gAoMKZT615Akhr8qV6hAvOXTxHtMbN =IAY7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Frans de Boer wrote:

On 07/08/2012 12:35 AM, Bob Williams wrote:

...

On 07/07/12 23:07, Hans Witvliet wrote:

...

On Fri, 2012-07-06 at 09:22 -0400, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote: <trim>

...

I also find your signature quite offensive. Would you please stop using it on this list.

Isn't it possible that any signature is automatically trimmed from each message, and never forwarded on the list?

I hope not. I try to put useful information into my sig, when posting in mailing lists. See below.

Bob

Hi Bob, what is useful for you does not necessarily is useful to someone else.

Like me: who cares what your running for how long etc!

Regards, Frans.

Frans, I think Bob meant that as a joke, pretending that the output of uptime and uname -a constitutes "useful information" for anyone other than himself -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

James Hatridge wrote:

Hi Per,

On Friday, July 06, 2012 03:32:19 PM Per Jessen wrote:

...

James Hatridge wrote:

...

Hi all,

Is it not about time for this mailing list to come in to the 21th century? This is the ONLY email list that I have to turn off HTML

...

formatting to send a post to. Everytime I forget it I get this: Depending on which emailer you're using, you ought to store that as a preference of the email-address (of the list). Thunderbird has such an option.

So far you're the only one to give a real answer to this, thanks for that. Do you know if kmail has this option? I've not been able to find it.

Hi Jim I did notice later that you're using kmail, but I don't know if kmail has that option. It really should be an option in the address book.

But this still bring us back to the first question. Why does this list not keep up with the times. Ten years ago, when almost no one had anything faster than 56k then it was understandable. But now even someone one out in the middle of no where Germany has at least DSL 2000 so this rule is silly. I'm on over 60 lists and am the owner of 4. This is the only list I have this problem with.

I would tend to agree that banning HTML _is_ silly, but it's not something I feel strongly about either way. I never use HTML for personal mail. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (21.0°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Fri, 2012-07-06 at 20:26 +0530, Arun Khan wrote:

On Fri, Jul 6, 2012 at 7:58 PM, James Hatridge <James.Hatridge@gmx.de> wrote:

...

So far you're the only one to give a real answer to this, thanks for that. Do you know if kmail has this option? I've not been able to find it. But this still bring us back to the first question. Why does this list not keep up with the times.

Please read the responses on this issue. The mailing list programs are not behind times. Text only mode is the setting. This is true for *all* FOSS technical mailing lists that I am a member (openSUSE, CentOS, Debian, bridge-utils, linux-kvm, openwrt, zeroshell, voyage linux ......)

It has nothing to do with cheaper storage and/or faster bandwidth.

It does, that's the excuse we used to give 15 plus years ago, it just stuck around, times change, hell, it was only late 2000's that I stopped using pine for all mail/usenet :)

Whereas, HTML formatted messages are the norm in Web forums and you will hardly see any pure text based discussions and that is OK for Web forum as you view them in your web browser.

...

Ten years ago, when almost no one had anything faster than 56k then it was understandable. But now even someone one out in the middle of no where Germany has at least DSL 2000 so this rule is silly. I'm on over 60 lists and am the owner of 4. This is the only list I have this problem with.

Not true Please see above.

Actually he is kinda right, just because the few lists you suggest don't use it, thousands more do use it. If the list used a list manager from this century, it can be configured to convert HTML into TEXT avoiding pissing off users all the time. Noel (Who for nearly two decades was anal about html posters - but know even I accept it is a reality and don't care - unless you send to our helpdesk/abusedesk blah blah then we enforce text)

On 07/07/2012 01:30 AM, ianseeks wrote:

On Saturday 07 Jul 2012 13:29:31 Noel Butler wrote:

...

On Fri, 2012-07-06 at 20:26 +0530, Arun Khan wrote:

...

...

So far you're the only one to give a real answer to this, thanks for that. Do you know if kmail has this option? I've not been able to find it. But this still bring us back to the first question. Why does this list not keep up with the times. Please read the responses on this issue. The mailing list programs are not behind times. Text only mode is the setting. This is true for *all* FOSS technical mailing lists that I am a member (openSUSE, CentOS, Debian, bridge-utils, linux-kvm, openwrt, zeroshell, voyage

On Fri, Jul 6, 2012 at 7:58 PM, James Hatridge<James.Hatridge@gmx.de> wrote: linux ......)

It has nothing to do with cheaper storage and/or faster bandwidth. It does, that's the excuse we used to give 15 plus years ago, it just stuck around, times change, hell, it was only late 2000's that I stopped using pine for all mail/usenet :)

...

Whereas, HTML formatted messages are the norm in Web forums and you will hardly see any pure text based discussions and that is OK for Web forum as you view them in your web browser.

...

Ten years ago, when almost no one had anything faster than 56k then it was understandable. But now even someone one out in the middle of no where Germany has at least DSL 2000 so this rule is silly. I'm on over 60 lists and am the owner of 4. This is the only list I have this problem with.> Not true Please see above. Actually he is kinda right, just because the few lists you suggest don't use it, thousands more do use it.

If the list used a list manager from this century, it can be configured to convert HTML into TEXT avoiding pissing off users all the time. what would the point be of the list manager converting it? More to the point, why would you want to have HTML emails other than to send spam advertising, attempts at hacking your system, having pretty pictures displayed in a software issues mailing list? I'm at a loss to see why you'd want HTML active in a mailing list. Noel (Who for nearly two decades was anal about html posters - but know even I accept it is a reality and don't care - unless you send to our helpdesk/abusedesk blah blah then we enforce text) Furthermore, my hunch, is that, in order to streamline the email for the archives, all the HTML junk would have to be stripped out. Which means, more back office computer work.

My 2cents, Duaine -- Duaine Hechler Piano, Player Piano, Pump Organ Tuning, Servicing& Rebuilding Reed Organ Society Member Florissant, MO 63034 (314) 838-5587 dahechler@att.net www.hechlerpianoandorgan.com -- Home& Business user of Linux - 11 years -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, 2012-07-07 at 07:30 +0100, ianseeks wrote:

what would the point be of the list manager converting it?

Avoiding those who do default to html from thinking their post is sent, and 5 hours later getting a bounce back, then having to resend it.

More to the point, why would you want to have HTML emails other than to send spam advertising, attempts at hacking your system, having pretty pictures displayed in a software issues mailing list? I'm at a loss to see why you'd want HTML active in a mailing list.

It has it's advantages in business, and yes, personal email, you don't have to like it, you have the right to filter out all html email if you so desire, just others have the right to use and accept it, rightly or wrongly (and yes 20 years ago it was WRONG, but, times change), It's used by vast majority of people these days, suck it up and get used to it or write a filter so you don't see it, milter-regex is also awesome for that for your MTA. ... reject "HTML not accepted, please resend in plain text" header /^Content-type$/i ,^text/html,i body ,^Content-type: text/html,i ... your problem is then solved.

...

Noel (Who for nearly two decades was anal about html posters - but know even I accept it is a reality and don't care - unless you send to our helpdesk/abusedesk blah blah then we enforce text)

Noel Butler wrote:

If the list used a list manager from this century, it can be configured to convert HTML into TEXT avoiding pissing off users all the time.

The list manager is mlmmj, the latest version is dated 29 May 2012. See http://mlmmj.org/

Noel (Who for nearly two decades was anal about html posters - but know even I accept it is a reality and don't care

Yup. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (20.8°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 07/08/2012 10:32 PM, Noel Butler wrote:

On Sat, 2012-07-07 at 12:14 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Noel Butler wrote:

...

If the list used a list manager from this century, it can be configured to convert HTML into TEXT avoiding pissing off users all the time. The list manager is mlmmj, the latest version is dated 29 May 2012. See http://mlmmj.org/

inspired by ezmlm<-- Therein lies the problem

From a quick squiz at it, It lacks much of what even Ecartis was doing back in 2005 (and for lightweight ML's I still use and recommend it) let alone Mailman's capabilities today.

Innocent question but what is wrong with mailman list server ? my 2 cents, Duaine -- Duaine Hechler Piano, Player Piano, Pump Organ Tuning, Servicing& Rebuilding Reed Organ Society Member Florissant, MO 63034 (314) 838-5587 dahechler@att.net www.hechlerpianoandorgan.com -- Home& Business user of Linux - 11 years -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Friday 06 Jul 2012 16:28:01 James Hatridge wrote:

Hi Per,

On Friday, July 06, 2012 03:32:19 PM Per Jessen wrote:

...

James Hatridge wrote:

...

Hi all,

Is it not about time for this mailing list to come in to the 21th century? This is the ONLY email list that I have to turn off HTML

...

formatting to send a post to. Everytime I forget it I get this: Depending on which emailer you're using, you ought to store that as a preference of the email-address (of the list). Thunderbird has such an option.

So far you're the only one to give a real answer to this, thanks for that.

There are 3 "real" answers 1. security 2. security 3. and finally security.

Do you know if kmail has this option? I've not been able to find it. But this still bring us back to the first question. Why does this list not keep up with the times. Ten years ago, when almost no one had anything faster than 56k then it was understandable. But now even someone one out in the middle of no where Germany has at least DSL 2000 so this rule is silly. I'm on over 60 lists and am the owner of 4. This is the only list I have this problem with.

JIM -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Mike wrote:

On Friday, July 06, 2012 08:28:01 AM James Hatridge wrote:

...

Hi Per,

On Friday, July 06, 2012 03:32:19 PM Per Jessen wrote:

...

James Hatridge wrote:

...

Hi all,

Is it not about time for this mailing list to come in to the 21th century? This is the ONLY email list that I have to turn off HTML

...

formatting to send a post to. Everytime I forget it I get this: Depending on which emailer you're using, you ought to store that as a preference of the email-address (of the list). Thunderbird has such an option.

So far you're the only one to give a real answer to this, thanks for that. Do you know if kmail has this option? I've not been able to find it. But this still bring us back to the first question. Why does this list not keep up with the times. Ten years ago, when almost no one had anything faster than 56k then it was understandable. But now even someone one out in the middle of no where Germany has at least DSL 2000 so this rule is silly. I'm on over 60 lists and am the owner of 4. This is the only list I have this problem with.

JIM

I disagree. I could care less about pretty. That's all that HTML brings to the stage.

We're going OT, but HTML does allow a lot more than just being pretty. Sometimes presentation does matter, also in email. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (20.4°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Dirk Gently wrote:

Per Jessen wrote:

...

Mike wrote:

...

On Friday, July 06, 2012 08:28:01 AM James Hatridge wrote:

...

Hi Per,

On Friday, July 06, 2012 03:32:19 PM Per Jessen wrote:

...

James Hatridge wrote:

...

Hi all,

Is it not about time for this mailing list to come in to the 21th century? This is the ONLY email list that I have to turn off HTML

...

formatting to send a post to. Everytime I forget it I get this: Depending on which emailer you're using, you ought to store that as a preference of the email-address (of the list). Thunderbird has such an option.

So far you're the only one to give a real answer to this, thanks for that. Do you know if kmail has this option? I've not been able to find it. But this still bring us back to the first question. Why does this list not keep up with the times. Ten years ago, when almost no one had anything faster than 56k then it was understandable. But now even someone one out in the middle of no where Germany has at least DSL 2000 so this rule is silly. I'm on over 60 lists and am the owner of 4. This is the only list I have this problem with.

JIM

I disagree. I could care less about pretty. That's all that HTML brings to the stage.

We're going OT, but HTML does allow a lot more than just being pretty. Sometimes presentation does matter, also in email.

I've yet to see ANYTHING written on this list which would be better presented in HTML as opposed to plain-text displayed in a monospace font.

I agree. I wasn't arguing that HTML would have any use on a mailing list. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (20.9°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2012/07/07 20:54 (GMT+0200) lynn composed:

Text is great here on the list,

As everywhere.

but hopeless for those who run online marketing.

Dunno why you think that. HTML spam from online marketers hits my bit bucket unread, resulting in 0 purchases. Links in plain text email from online marketers occasionally here get a click, which >0 times has resulted in a purchase. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 07/07/2012 10:42 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

On 2012-07-07 21:59, Felix Miata wrote:

...

On 2012/07/07 20:54 (GMT+0200) lynn composed:

...

...

but hopeless for those who run online marketing.

Dunno why you think that. HTML spam from online marketers hits my bit bucket unread, resulting in 0 purchases. Links in plain text email from online marketers occasionally here get a click, which >0 times has resulted in a purchase.

My bank sends me email in html, and I'm not going to throw it away just because I don't like it. I get the electricity bill, the water, the telephone... all in html. Many of the commercial sites I ask questions of, answer in html email, and if I delete it, it is me who is damaged, not they. At least they don't post using that MS abomination that can only be read with outlook (tnef).

I don't care if they email me in plain text or in html, it is not that important, but to me, deleting html on sight is as absurd as insisting on fixed font with a typewriter nowdays.

On the other hand, I receive lots of spam in plain text. Who cares!?

- -- Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

iEYEARECAAYFAk/4nx0ACgkQIvFNjefEBxrFsQCfWBU9VVBg1UFDRVmtRt4zPD7h 6GUAn0vfH7g8r+Q2E8Afr9meCGYP9JTl =oNdA -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Yes Carlos, finally a good comment. @fanatics: email is nowadays in many forms. If it is delivered via SMTP, it's email, no matter the content! Nowhere in the specs it is stated that it must be text only. It can't be because of UTF formatting too. If feel that only xenophobes and/or fossils want 7-bit ASCII. However, every list has the right to it's own quirks. Not to your liking? ask nicely or quit using the list. And using offensive signatures is a sure way to get blocked from lists or banned by its users. Except for social media, stick to the point otherwise and let politics out of these none political lists. Regards, Frans de Boer. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, 07 Jul 2012 23:34:17 +0200 "Carlos E. R." <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote: ...

Otherwise, the rules of the list should state what is allowed on the signatures - and AFAIR they say nothing:

<http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_list_netiquette#Signatures>

Signatures

Signatures in emails should be not longer then 4 lines long.

Information: McQuary Limit

Thus, if the rules say nothing, we can not complain about any signature except on the size. ...

Besides netiquette there are openSUSE rules that forbid questionable offtopic comments and that apply to all communications and web sites. There is no need to repeat that in mail list specific article. So, it is possible to complain. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 08/07/12 07:34, Carlos E. R. wrote: [........]

That too.

Although signatures should be mostly ignored regarding rules, I consider them as irrelevant to the message, a place where people can express whatever they want as long as it is short. At most, respond with another signature, equally short :-)

Otherwise, the rules of the list should state what is allowed on the signatures - and AFAIR they say nothing:

<http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_list_netiquette#Signatures>

Signatures

Signatures in emails should be not longer then 4 lines long.

Information: McQuary Limit

Thus, if the rules say nothing, we can not complain about any signature except on the size.

- -- Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla -http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

iEYEARECAAYFAk/4q1kACgkQIvFNjefEBxotjQCeJGFiuCkjKYP6XbQDnyiZQIwU p5EAmgKe8myra2Sxk/0hqn45QHuTQilr =uAHS -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

OK, speaking of "sigs" or "signatures", how long is your "signature" in the above post (and every other post of yours)? BC -- Using openSUSE 12.2 x86_64 KDE 4.8.4 & kernel 3.4.4.2 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel Corsair "Vengeance" RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX550Ti 1GB DDR5 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-07-09 08:46, Basil Chupin wrote:

OK, speaking of "sigs" or "signatures", how long is your "signature" in the above post (and every other post of yours)?

Two lines, as displayed by Thunderbird. If you see more, use other software >:-) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/6vHMACgkQIvFNjefEBxonFwCgvKxfmoAn0VYu2LKbfmtvkwb6 +g0AoILkLjbpOMtGlIhTjFgbc/fOdLbj =00cV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 07/07/2012 02:06 PM, Frans de Boer wrote: < - snip - >

And using offensive signatures is a sure way to get blocked from lists or banned by its users. Except for social media, stick to the point otherwise and let politics out of these none political lists.

Hi Frans, I don't recall seeing may offensive signatures, anywhere. If I was offended by one, my first thought would be that it's MY problem, not the author's. Also, has anyone actually visited the link that (I think) started this dustup? For the record, here it is again: http://yankeegohome.18-t.com/ It's not what it seems, and it's not against a baseball team in New York, or against Americans. Regards, Lew "Can we all get along?" R. King 1991 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Frans de Boer wrote:

On 07/07/2012 10:42 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote: On 2012-07-07 21:59, Felix Miata wrote:

...

...

...

On 2012/07/07 20:54 (GMT+0200) lynn composed:

...

...

...

...

but hopeless for those who run online marketing.

Dunno why you think that. HTML spam from online marketers hits my bit bucket unread, resulting in 0 purchases. Links in plain text email from online marketers occasionally here get a click, which >0 times has resulted in a purchase.

My bank sends me email in html, and I'm not going to throw it away just because I don't like it. I get the electricity bill, the water, the telephone... all in html. Many of the commercial sites I ask questions of, answer in html email, and if I delete it, it is me who is damaged, not they. At least they don't post using that MS abomination that can only be read with outlook (tnef).

I don't care if they email me in plain text or in html, it is not that important, but to me, deleting html on sight is as absurd as insisting on fixed font with a typewriter nowdays.

On the other hand, I receive lots of spam in plain text. Who cares!?

...

Yes Carlos, finally a good comment. @fanatics: email is nowadays in many forms. If it is delivered via SMTP, it's email, no matter the content! Nowhere in the specs it is stated that it must be text only. It can't be because of UTF formatting too. If feel that only xenophobes and/or fossils want 7-bit ASCII.

However, every list has the right to it's own quirks. Not to your liking? ask nicely or quit using the list.

And using offensive signatures is a sure way to get blocked from lists or banned by its users. Except for social media, stick to the point otherwise and let politics out of these none political lists.

Regards, Frans de Boer.

But the fact of the matter is, outside of a few commercial uses, most HTML email is written by drama queens. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-07-08 01:17, Felix Miata wrote:

On 2012/07/07 22:42 (GMT+0200) Carlos E. R. composed:

...

My bank sends me email in html, and I'm not going to throw it away just because I don't like it.

Any bank that insisted on spamming my email box with "rich" text wouldn't be my bank any longer than the time it takes to switch banks to one that understands the meaning of customer service.

That would be the smallest of my worries. First would be what they do to my money. I know a bank here with very good internet services, easy to use and secure (password, keyword card (multiple ids) and cellular SMS double check). On the other hand, it is one of the intervened banks in Spain. Choose your poison.

Paying bills online doesn't equate to wanting bills received online. My personal financial information doesn't need to be scattered across a web of email servers and their backups. If and when I do want to see a bill online, I open a web browser, not an email app, and have encryption in play to prevent thieving.

Usually the data itself is not in the email, that is just a reminder that you have bank statements to fetch from the secure web in pdf format, hopefully cryptographically signed.

I don't trust cloud storage to have what I want when I want it for as long as I want it, which paper bills give me automatically.

You will have to. Thunderbird has just announced they stop development, go use webmail instead. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/4xgIACgkQIvFNjefEBxoE4wCfZfwFEnUnsG5iQz9KokQBSp0k HigAn2g7uAlpkW00Nfnin+MWih6cg/2d =JzjW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-07-08 02:48, Anton Aylward wrote:

Carlos E. R. said the following on 07/07/2012 07:28 PM:

...

That's a long way from Thunderbird being discontinued.

<http://www.osnews.com/comments/26159> Mozilla to cease development on Thunderbird Linked by Thom Holwerda on Fri 6th Jul 2012 22:42 UTC Mozilla & Gecko clones Mozilla has announced it's ceasing development on Thunderbird; one more version will be released, and it'll be security updates from then on. If your quoted link is right and they are not stopping, that's reassuring. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/42nUACgkQIvFNjefEBxq0YACeIe2d0ViiaudM7TkfaNY9UCv/ 9ioAnAksQfb9gosVn7k+Lv5BjWT2UpUt =MToB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-07-08 03:08, Anton Aylward wrote:

Carlos E. R. said the following on 07/07/2012 08:55 PM:

...

If your quoted link is right and they are not stopping, that's reassuring.

We'll see what Monday brings :-)

Yes, right now I'm full of doubts.

But reassignment of resources to mobile makes sense. Priorities and all that.

I suppose...

Thunderbird is too big - install base/user and all that - to vanish in a puff of smoke. If they tried there would be outrage, and being open source some others would take up at last some of the effort.

Lets see what they say on Monday. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/44IsACgkQIvFNjefEBxop5QCglgLplu8n3npys+Xi43LVqE7T 2MUAoLYLWjBAhZNAUJyiFYkqQTT25lV/ =tEqW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-07-08 03:14, Felix Miata wrote:

If you can't find an official link on the subject on Mozilla.org/com, better than a link to some random interpreter, a link to something actually written by a member of the Mozilla Foundation (from irc://moznet/thunderbird /topic): http://blog.lizardwrangler.com/2012/07/06/thunderbird-stability-and-communit...

I

had seen that one already, but as the url doesn't say "mozilla.org" I wasn't sure. And reading it I wasn't that reassured, either. The language is confusing to me. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/43/kACgkQIvFNjefEBxrzpwCeOkpiG3hkhAT9OUISyfLtvzjn dcEAni+ljIQC7eG2lwzRS6Us1frCyApX =fCSo -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 07/07/12 14:54, lynn pecked at the keyboard and wrote:

On 07/07/12 12:22, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Dirk Gently wrote:

...

Per Jessen wrote:

...

Mike wrote:

...

On Friday, July 06, 2012 08:28:01 AM James Hatridge wrote:

...

Hi Per,

On Friday, July 06, 2012 03:32:19 PM Per Jessen wrote: > James Hatridge wrote:

Hi everyone

Text is great here on the list, but hopeless for those who run online marketing. L x

Well, we don't do online marketing on this list do we! -- Ken Schneider SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. said the following on 07/07/2012 05:38 PM:

But the comment was aimed at saying that there are scopes where html email is the norm, it is not a whole-sized evil :-)

Perhaps the question was badly phrased. Try this. Under what circumstances would HTML be absolutely and unequivocally *NECESSARY* on this list. Or Elsewhere. Someone commented that he had received advertising/spam in plain text, not HTML. Yes, I have too. This demonstrates HTML is not *necessary* for advertising or spam :-) However if you want to deceive users as in <a href=bad site"> Good Site </a> then HTML absolutely and unequivocally *IS* necessary. In Thunderbird I can set to 'display plain text only'. If the message is *only* HTML then I can conclude that the sender hasn't bothered wit a plain text segment under MIME and is ether and idiot/incompetent or has other, perhaps malicious, intent. The mail gets deleted. Mail from my bank etc etc *does* have a plain text segment. Any necessary links are there as well and are clearly URLs with no 'disguise'. If a friend sends me mail with an embedded rather than an attached picture I can *choose* to view as 'original html'. But as for HTML replacing plain text "absolutely and unequivocally *NECESSARY*" under all conditions: NO WAY! -- Quoniam Stercus Accidit -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. wrote: <snip>

The bills from my utilities, like the electricity bill, comes in html. Come on, delete it, and don't pay the bill! >:-P

I also receive such bills. But without exception, they all seem to send text format along w/ html. I must say that I very seldom have to revert to html for any email. Somehow, Thunderbird makes my life easy (in this respect). Maybe I'm just lucky ;-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-07-08 02:33, Anton Aylward wrote:

Yes and if Carlos had read my mail rather than snipping it

I did read it. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/41w0ACgkQIvFNjefEBxoybQCgpyiO5rwFSbQTWkUUGuB2d7xW 7cUAnjxs8PFlam0mM728P0n9bU0161rh =067s -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2012-07-08 00:15, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

Carlos E. R. said the following on 07/07/2012 05:38 PM:

...

But the comment was aimed at saying that there are scopes where html email is the norm, it is not a whole-sized evil :-)

...

Perhaps the question was badly phrased.

...

Try this.

...

Under what circumstances would HTML be absolutely and unequivocally *NECESSARY* on this list.

That is not in question. Rules say that there will be no html on this list, and that's that.

Why argue it, then? You like arguing?

...

Or Elsewhere.

That's is irrelevant for this list :-)

But as we don't have anything else to talk about, go ahead.

...

idiot/incompetent or has other, perhaps malicious, intent. The mail gets deleted.

The bills from my utilities, like the electricity bill, comes in html. Come on, delete it, and don't pay the bill! >:-P

Then tell them that you deleted the bill and will not pay it because they posted in evil html, ans watch them laugh at you. Yes, they laugh, because reconnecting the electricity needs an extra payment equivalent to three months worth. Very nice, good business for them. Wish all their clients were that silly >:-)

I don't know how it is in Spain, but a bill in e-mail is only a convenience. It's not a legally enforceable demand for payment until it's delivered on paper. And under our consumer protection laws, they have to send you a paper-mail account statement every month no matter how you pay (cash, check, credit card, online payment or electronic transfer). -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sun, 2012-07-08 at 01:07 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

On 2012-07-08 00:45, Dirk Gently wrote:

...

I don't know how it is in Spain, but a bill in e-mail is only a convenience. It's not a legally enforceable demand for payment until it's delivered on paper.

Not here. A signed PDF is legally binding, the post simply announces or transports it.

As it is in Australia and most places in Europe, in fact, I do services with U.K. and U.S. companies that send me invoices in PDF, and even some companies that send invoices as HTML in email, in this country, that's legally binding.

...

And under our consumer protection laws, they have to send you a paper-mail account statement every month no matter how you pay (cash, check, credit card, online payment or electronic transfer).

Not here.

Nor here, nor in U.K or U.S. going by my above statement, or is the rule in U.S. only applicable for U.S. to U.S. residents? Who knows...

On Sun, 2012-07-08 at 21:12 -0700, Lew Wolfgang wrote:

...

Nor here, nor in U.K or U.S. going by my above statement, or is the rule in U.S. only applicable for U.S. to U.S. residents? Who knows...

Well, individual states in the US may have different regulations, but here in California paper invoices are optional.

Ahh, OK, LA is where I deal with, thanks for making it clear it's not a blanket U.S. wide thing. (I've had an abundance of offlist replies telling me I should listen to the rain for advice more than that particular poster)

Dirk Gently wrote:

I don't know how it is in Spain, but a bill in e-mail is only a convenience. It's not a legally enforceable demand for payment until it's delivered on paper.

In Canada, e-mail with a digital signature is considered to be a legally signed document. As for bills, if it's something that occurs regularly, then you expect it and you've likely agreed to keep your account up to date. Also, it's very easy to access the web sites to check your account etc. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-07-08 18:12, Hans Witvliet wrote:

On Sat, 2012-07-07 at 21:29 -0400, James Knott wrote:

...

Dirk Gently wrote:

...

In Canada, e-mail with a digital signature is considered to be a legally signed document.

All very well, but why should other list member be confronted with sigs? Not relevant to put it mildly.

This part of the thread was not related to signatures, but to bills on emails. Choose one where the quoted material says something about signatures to make your point :-) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/5tF8ACgkQIvFNjefEBxrIEQCfarTwEr8QXGVFpN8IAM8KKlAI 4egAn04utunNFzsXvs9FD/vbXdLsWjBT =S1lH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-07-08 18:34, James Knott wrote:

Hans Witvliet wrote:

...

...

In Canada, e-mail with a digital signature is considered to be a legally

...

signed document. As for bills, if it's something that occurs regularly, then you expect it and you've likely agreed to keep your account up to date. Also, it's very easy to access the web sites to check your account etc. All very well, but why should other list member be confronted with sigs? Not relevant to put it mildly. ????

The signatures I was referring to are X.509 digital certificates, which can be used to encrypt and sign email.

Ah! Now I understand his post.

The certificates are issued by or traceable to some certificate authority such as Verisign. You wouldn't normally use them with a mail list. Even if you did, it's not something that appears in the message. If you receive a signed message, you'd see an icon, at the bottom of your email app, that indicates it is a signed message. I have signed this message¹, so you can see what it looks like. Having received my public certificate, you are now able to send me an encrypted email

1. Assuming it makes it through the mail list.

It did, although Thunderbird doesn't show it prominently. There is no key icon at the bottom, but a closed envelop with a sealing wax (spot?) at the top. PGP signed posts get a green bar the width of the email window. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/5uPIACgkQIvFNjefEBxqf7wCgu+RJc46lqwc9EMStoYGOtyVe h40AoKV5aejTjXueangv+KejFrTExoQw =0Nvv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-07-09 07:45, Per Jessen wrote:

Carlos E. R. wrote:

Yes, that indicates that the signature was valid. If the envelope is red, it is invalid. When you click on it, you'll find out why.

...

PGP signed posts get a green bar the width of the email window.

I guess the Mozilla guys have their own preferences :-)

Actually, PGP checking was not native to Thunderbird, it is still added by an add-on (enigmail), whereas PKCS is internally detected - AFAIK. PGP also gets that sealed envelope now. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/6ubwACgkQIvFNjefEBxo9RACeMLRs2SBjHf4IPrQCtSLwfr/6 2roAoMXi7bODbRpCIF0BAG28na9x+fJl =7pio -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. said the following on 07/07/2012 06:35 PM: Since you snipped out much of my mail you altered my meaning.

...

idiot/incompetent or has other, perhaps malicious, intent. The mail gets deleted.

The bills from my utilities, like the electricity bill, comes in html. Come on, delete it, and don't pay the bill! >:-P

Then tell them that you deleted the bill and will not pay it because they posted in evil html, ans watch them laugh at you. Yes, they laugh, because reconnecting the electricity needs an extra payment equivalent to three months worth. Very nice, good business for them. Wish all their clients were that silly >:-)

Lets see what I did say:

In Thunderbird I can set to 'display plain text only'. If the message is *only* HTML then I can conclude that the sender hasn't bothered wit a plain text segment under MIME and is ether and idiot/incompetent or has other, perhaps malicious, intent. The mail gets deleted.

Mail from my bank etc etc *does* have a plain text segment.

So mail from my bank, utilities etc etc does *NOT* get deleted and I don't have the problems you accuse me of. -- /"\ \ / ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN X AGAINST HTML EMAIL / \ AND POSTINGS -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 08/07/12 10:44, Carlos E. R. wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

On 2012-07-08 02:37, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

Lets see what I did say:

...

...

In Thunderbird I can set to 'display plain text only'. If the message is *only* HTML then I can conclude that the sender hasn't bothered wit a plain text segment under MIME and is ether and idiot/incompetent or has other, perhaps malicious, intent. The mail gets deleted.

Mail from my bank etc etc *does* have a plain text segment. So mail from my bank, utilities etc etc does *NOT* get deleted and I don't have the problems you accuse me of. I'm not accusing anybody. The emails _I_ get from banks, utilities, etc, contain html, and some contain text, and some do not. I do not delete an email just because it is sent in html only, I delete them if they are spam, regardless if they are plain text or html or a combination.

Then please, Carlos, be specific when you reply to posts and don't leave interpreting to what you write to the reader.

I'm tolerant, that's all.

I should hope so...... BC -- Using openSUSE 12.2 x86_64 KDE 4.8.4 & kernel 3.4.4.2 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel Corsair "Vengeance" RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX550Ti 1GB DDR5 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-07-08 03:39, James Knott wrote:

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

The bills from my utilities, like the electricity bill, comes in html. Come on, delete it, and don't pay the bill! >:-P

With my bills, I am sent an email advising there's a new statement ready. I can then click on the link to see or download the bill. Of course, I can always go to the web site at any time to see my account status etc.

Same here. When I buy something over Internet, I get an email with the receipt, and it is usually html, or both. And even when they use both, as the formatting is designed for html (for example, because they use tables), it is easier to read in html - and it is in my interest to read it. :-) Time ago I insisted in getting plain text email only. No longer, I learned to be more tolerant. Which is different from accepting the rules of each place: here is "no html", so be it, no problem :-) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/460IACgkQIvFNjefEBxo+yQCcCboYUxX7E2opS+ByMPJfl9kp sNkAoNwcrlOcx/ODo+vWHI1Vks8PITda =dDT3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, Jul 09, 2012 at 05:32:29PM +1000, Basil Chupin wrote:

On 08/07/12 08:35, Carlos E. R. wrote:

[.............]

...

The bills from my utilities, like the electricity bill, comes in html. Come on, delete it, and don't pay the bill! >:-P

Then tell them that you deleted the bill and will not pay it because they posted in evil html, ans watch them laugh at you. Yes, they laugh, because reconnecting the electricity needs an extra payment equivalent to three months worth. Very nice, good business for them. Wish all their clients were that silly >:-)

Please, Carlos, don't get all dramatic and carried away. Doesn't suit you.

You are using Thunderbird (13.0) [and I am using TB v16.0a1 Daily - just for the record].

My ISP, and other institutions, sends me mail in HTML and, as you know, in Thunderbird you have the ability to not display the contents of an HTML file received as personal mail from someone like your bank; and you can then choose to either display the HTML from the remote site in that message or ignore the HTML and simply read the ASCII bits which appear on your screen.

What this discussion did not bring up is that there is a difference between the Bank/Provider E-Mails in HTML and regular E-Mails in HTML. You will not need to answer or reply to Bank/Provider/OtherInfo HTML E-Mails as these are information only! Compared to mails on this list, where people surely will need to be able to reply. Some of us (including me) even use console mailreaders still for efficiency, and replying on HTML emails is near to impossible with them. Ciao, Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Sick of this whole thread. -- A veteran is someone who, at one point in their life, wrote a blank check made payable to ‘The United States of America’ for any amount, up to and including their life. _ _... ..._ _ _._ ._ ..... ._.. ... .._ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 09/07/12 19:20, Noel Butler wrote:

On Mon, 2012-07-09 at 09:39 +0200, Marcus Meissner wrote:

...

Compared to mails on this list, where people surely will need to be able to reply.

Some of us (including me) even use console mailreaders still for efficiency, and replying on HTML emails is near to impossible with them.

eh? Pine was able to render HTML emails properly a great many, many years ago.

I note your using mutt, but a 5 yo version, never liked mutt so rarely use it, so dunno if modern versions are capable or not.

There are no "modern versions" of Mutt :-) . The 2007 version is IT :-) . BC -- Using openSUSE 12.2 x86_64 KDE 4.8.4 & kernel 3.4.4.2 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel Corsair "Vengeance" RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX550Ti 1GB DDR5 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 07/08/2012 12:15 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:

Carlos E. R. said the following on 07/07/2012 05:38 PM:

...

But the comment was aimed at saying that there are scopes where html email is the norm, it is not a whole-sized evil :-)

Perhaps the question was badly phrased.

Try this.

Under what circumstances would HTML be absolutely and unequivocally *NECESSARY* on this list.

Or Elsewhere.

Someone commented that he had received advertising/spam in plain text, not HTML. Yes, I have too. This demonstrates HTML is not *necessary* for advertising or spam :-)

However if you want to deceive users as in

<a href=bad site"> Good Site </a>

then HTML absolutely and unequivocally *IS* necessary.

In Thunderbird I can set to 'display plain text only'. If the message is *only* HTML then I can conclude that the sender hasn't bothered wit a plain text segment under MIME and is ether and idiot/incompetent or has other, perhaps malicious, intent. The mail gets deleted.

Mail from my bank etc etc *does* have a plain text segment. Any necessary links are there as well and are clearly URLs with no 'disguise'.

If a friend sends me mail with an embedded rather than an attached picture I can *choose* to view as 'original html'.

But as for HTML replacing plain text "absolutely and unequivocally *NECESSARY*" under all conditions: NO WAY!

Are we going to spent any more space/time on this topic for times to come, or deal with it and just go back to "normal" operation? i don't like to waste time on issues not very important. Yes, there are two sides and each had ample time to ventilate there view. Now leave it to the list maintainers if they have learned anything and are willing or nor to change the settings. Either way, the list continues with or without HTML email messages. Regards, Frans. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 07/09/2012 03:51 AM, Basil Chupin wrote:

On 08/07/12 08:38, Frans de Boer wrote:

[........]

...

Yes, there are two sides and each had ample time to ventilate there view. Now leave it to the list maintainers if they have learned anything and are willing or nor to change the settings. Either way, the list continues with or without HTML email messages.

No, the list does not continue of the basis you state.

The list continues *without* HTML e-mail messages because HTML messages are NOT permitted on these lists.

BC

END OF SUBJECT ....... LETS MOVE ON ............... -- Duaine Hechler Piano, Player Piano, Pump Organ Tuning, Servicing& Rebuilding Reed Organ Society Member Florissant, MO 63034 (314) 838-5587 dahechler@att.net www.hechlerpianoandorgan.com -- Home& Business user of Linux - 11 years -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin wrote:

On 07/07/12 20:22, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Dirk Gently wrote:

...

Per Jessen wrote:

...

Mike wrote:

...

...

Hi Per,

On Friday, July 06, 2012 03:32:19 PM Per Jessen wrote: > James Hatridge wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> Is it not about time for this mailing list to come in to the >> 21th century? This is the ONLY email list that I have to turn >> off HTML formatting to send a post to. Everytime I forget it I >> get this: > Depending on which emailer you're using, you ought to store that > as a > preference of the email-address (of the list). Thunderbird has > such an option. So far you're the only one to give a real answer to this, thanks for that. Do you know if kmail has this option? I've not been able to find it. But this still bring us back to the first question. Why does this list not keep up with the times. Ten years ago, when almost no one had anything faster than 56k then it was understandable. But now even someone one out in the middle of no where Germany has at least DSL 2000 so this rule is silly. I'm on over 60 lists and am the owner of 4. This is the only list I have this problem with.

JIM I disagree. I could care less about pretty. That's all that HTML brings to the stage. We're going OT, but HTML does allow a lot more than just being

On Friday, July 06, 2012 08:28:01 AM James Hatridge wrote: pretty. Sometimes presentation does matter, also in email.

I've yet to see ANYTHING written on this list which would be better presented in HTML as opposed to plain-text displayed in a monospace font. I agree. I wasn't arguing that HTML would have any use on a mailing list.

Then what were you arguing in favour of?

I was arguing against the _general_ suggestion that "HTML is only about being pretty". Presentation matters - it is about being _effective_.

Posts to this mail list, or any other mailing list, are e-mails.

If we'd stuck to that limited topic, Carlos very succinctly finished off the thread long ago - "there is no HTML allowed on this list, end of story". (I think it was Carlos). -- Per Jessen, Zürich (18.7°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin wrote:

On 09/07/12 16:47, Per Jessen wrote:

...

If we'd stuck to that limited topic, Carlos very succinctly finished off the thread long ago - "there is no HTML allowed on this list, end of story". (I think it was Carlos).

Then why is this thread still continuing...?

Because we didn't listen to Carlos. :-) -- Per Jessen, Zürich (21.3°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-07-09 12:04, Basil Chupin wrote:

On 09/07/12 19:30, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Basil Chupin wrote:

...

On 09/07/12 16:47, Per Jessen wrote:

...

If we'd stuck to that limited topic, Carlos very succinctly finished off the thread long ago - "there is no HTML allowed on this list, end of story". (I think it was Carlos). Then why is this thread still continuing...? Because we didn't listen to Carlos. :-)

And, unfortunately, Carlos did not listen to himself....:-( .

I did. But I answer to further posts :-) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/6vBMACgkQIvFNjefEBxpCqACbBcVKPplxBU5xX12242ZMF3sp YRYAoMolaUnmzLfO4tW+vlv5S2OeMClI =fB7c -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin wrote:

On 07/07/12 20:11, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Mike wrote:

...

...

Hi Per,

...

...

Hi all,

Is it not about time for this mailing list to come in to the 21th century? This is the ONLY email list that I have to turn off HTML formatting to send a post to. Everytime I forget it I get this: Depending on which emailer you're using, you ought to store that as a

James Hatridge wrote: preference of the email-address (of the list). Thunderbird has such an option. So far you're the only one to give a real answer to this, thanks for that. Do you know if kmail has this option? I've not been able to find it. But this still bring us back to the first question. Why does this list not keep up with the times. Ten years ago, when almost no one had anything faster than 56k then it was understandable. But now even someone one out in the middle of no where Germany has at least DSL 2000 so this rule is silly. I'm on over 60 lists and am the owner of 4. This is the only list I have

On Friday, July 06, 2012 03:32:19 PM Per Jessen wrote: this problem with.

JIM I disagree. I could care less about pretty. That's all that HTML brings to the stage. We're going OT, but HTML does allow a lot more than just being

On Friday, July 06, 2012 08:28:01 AM James Hatridge wrote: pretty. Sometimes presentation does matter, also in email.

Tell me, what exactly would HTML bring to any message in this technical mail list, or any other mail list for that matter? What exactly would make a "presentation" in this so much better if one used HTML?

See my reply to Felix on opensuse-offtopic.

You want to write a word in italics? This is also possible (but I have forgotten what that is at the moment).

/like this/ -- Per Jessen, Zürich (19.1°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-07-09 08:26, Basil Chupin wrote:

Tell me, what exactly would HTML bring to any message in this technical mail list, or any other mail list for that matter? What exactly would make a "presentation" in this so much better if one used HTML?

I do not want html here, but for example, selecting fixed width font. Placing figures (charts, graphs, screen photos) in context with the text. Automatic paragraph indentation with reflow as the window of the recipient changes width. Text tables. As I said, I do not want it here, but it has advantages. We do have text formatting normally with wordprocessors, nobody defends that we should only use the features of a typewriter capabilities. Html brings similar features to email. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/6u5IACgkQIvFNjefEBxrNywCeIzblkbS6LDlDIvVz/8lYnis2 OJ4An1wxfDCCg0GX3sC/WvLKy6IZSCsz =rdD9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Will Stephenson wrote:

On Friday 06 Jul 2012 16:28:01 James Hatridge wrote:

...

So far you're the only one to give a real answer to this, thanks for that. Do you know if kmail has this option? I've not been able to find it. But this still bring us back to the first question. Why does this list not keep up with the times. Ten years ago, when almost no one had anything faster than 56k then it was understandable. But now even someone one out in the middle of no where Germany has at least DSL 2000 so this rule is silly. I'm on over 60 lists and am the owner of 4. This is the only list I have this problem with. See http://sudhendu.in/node/13

It's not as simple as setting it as a flag on a mailing list 'contact' - you have to set it in the reply template for particular user identities or mail folders.

Some of us have no choice but to correspond with people who would, unfortunately, view us as cranks if we did not reply in HTML with TOFU...

Will

In Seamonkey and Thunderbird, it's a simple matter to set an overall default, defaults for specific domains and individually for each address book entry. It sounds like KMail may not be the best app to use. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Will Stephenson wrote:

On Friday 06 Jul 2012 16:28:01 James Hatridge wrote:

...

So far you're the only one to give a real answer to this, thanks for that. Do you know if kmail has this option? I've not been able to find it. But this still bring us back to the first question. Why does this list not keep up with the times. Ten years ago, when almost no one had anything faster than 56k then it was understandable. But now even someone one out in the middle of no where Germany has at least DSL 2000 so this rule is silly. I'm on over 60 lists and am the owner of 4. This is the only list I have this problem with.

See http://sudhendu.in/node/13

It's not as simple as setting it as a flag on a mailing list 'contact' - you have to set it in the reply template for particular user identities or mail folders.

Some of us have no choice but to correspond with people who would, unfortunately, view us as cranks if we did not reply in HTML with TOFU...

Why do you care what they think? If someone has a preference for seeing every new paragraph in a new color and/or font.... and I'm corresponding with them... well, too bad for them. I don't have time to entertain such silliness.

Will

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2012/07/06 09:33 (GMT-0400) Felix Miata composed:

On 2012/07/06 15:06 (GMT+0200) James Hatridge composed:

...

Is it not about time for this mailing list to come in to the 21th century? This is the ONLY email list that I have to turn off HTML formatting to send a post to.... Personally I'm sick of always having to send posts twice. How about fixing this.

It isn't broken. "HTML email" isn't email, it's web pages and all their associated wasteful and annoying overhead delivered via smtp. Those things arriving here via filtering are diverted into my bit bucket unread. When I want to view a web page, I'll open it in a web browser, not an email app.

http://fm.no-ip.com/Inet/htmlemail.html explains more.

It's disappointing how this list gets read if the following sample of page hits to the above URL is any guide. The first two came from Windows, the next from Mac, and only then 6 from Linux. ...8.202 - - [06/Jul/2012:09:33:48 -0400] "GET /Inet/htmlemail.html HTTP/1.1" 200 8447 "-" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.4506.2152; .NET CLR 3.5.30729; InfoPath.2; MS-RTC LM 8)" ...0.240 - - [06/Jul/2012:09:35:33 -0400] "GET /Inet/htmlemail.html HTTP/1.1" 200 8447 "-" "Mozilla/5.0 (compatible; MSIE 9.0; Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; Trident/5.0)" ...9.74 - - [06/Jul/2012:09:39:07 -0400] "GET /Inet/htmlemail.html HTTP/1.0" 200 8447 "-" "Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10_7_4) AppleWebKit/534.57.2 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.1.7 Safari/534.57.2" ...2.57 - - [06/Jul/2012:09:47:05 -0400] "GET /Inet/htmlemail.html HTTP/1.1" 200 8447 "http://zimbra.corpdata.co.uk/zimbra/" "Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:13.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/13.0" ...2.89 - - [06/Jul/2012:09:48:15 -0400] "GET /Inet/htmlemail.html HTTP/1.1" 200 8447 "-" "Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:13.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/13.0" ...2.127 - - [06/Jul/2012:10:03:30 -0400] "GET /Inet/htmlemail.html HTTP/1.1" 200 8447 "-" "Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:13.0) Gecko/20120604 Firefox/13.0 SeaMonkey/2.10 Lightning/1.5.1" ...0.16 - - [06/Jul/2012:10:07:12 -0400] "GET /Inet/htmlemail.html HTTP/1.1" 200 8447 "-" "Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Ubuntu; Linux x86_64; rv:13.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/13.0.1" ...4.166 - - [06/Jul/2012:10:09:53 -0400] "GET /Inet/htmlemail.html HTTP/1.1" 200 8447 "-" "Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:13.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/13.0" ...2.171 - - [06/Jul/2012:10:33:17 -0400] "GET /Inet/htmlemail.html HTTP/1.1" 200 8447 "-" "Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:12.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/12.0" ...2.127 - - [06/Jul/2012:10:48:07 -0400] "GET /Inet/htmlemail.html HTTP/1.1" 200 8447 "-" "Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:13.0) Gecko/20120604 Firefox/13.0 SeaMonkey/2.10 Lightning/1.5.1" -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Felix Miata wrote:

On 2012/07/06 15:06 (GMT+0200) James Hatridge composed:

...

Is it not about time for this mailing list to come in to the 21th century? This is the ONLY email list that I have to turn off HTML formatting to send a post to.... Personally I'm sick of always having to send posts twice. How about fixing this.

It isn't broken. "HTML email" isn't email, it's web pages and all their associated wasteful and annoying overhead delivered via smtp. Those things arriving here via filtering are diverted into my bit bucket unread. When I want to view a web page, I'll open it in a web browser, not an email app.

I couldn't have said it better myself. People who send out email in HTML are just plain fucking rude. It's like someone who sends out postcards, but packs the postcard in a large box, full of bricks, and then sends it as First Class, COLLECT ON DELIVERY (i.e. recipient pays the cost of shipping). Screw that. People sending out postcards should learn how to mail a postcard -- including James Hatridge.

http://fm.no-ip.com/Inet/htmlemail.html explains more.

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Fri, Jul 6, 2012 at 3:56 PM, Patrick Shanahan <paka@opensuse.org> wrote:

It is as it was/should be. Please remove your offensive sig.

Not that I care one bit about anyone's signature lines... but if anyone here bothered to go check out James' website instead of having a mindless knee-jerk reaction... you'd clearly see it's nothing to be offended about (a collection of stamps and postcards from WWI, WWII, the Cold War era and so on). You are all being rather silly about this. C. -- openSUSE 12.1 x86_64, KDE 4.8.4 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

C wrote:

On Fri, Jul 6, 2012 at 3:56 PM, Patrick Shanahan <paka@opensuse.org> wrote:

...

It is as it was/should be. Please remove your offensive sig.

Not that I care one bit about anyone's signature lines... but if anyone here bothered to go check out James' website instead of having a mindless knee-jerk reaction... you'd clearly see it's nothing to be offended about (a collection of stamps and postcards from WWI, WWII, the Cold War era and so on). You are all being rather silly about this.

+1 -- Per Jessen, Zürich (20.9°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org