Re: [opensuse] System D: Debian Fork
OBTW: Since I subscribe to this list there is no point in cc'ing me. On 10/22/2014 02:52 PM, Banga Gong wrote:
When did this vote occur?
Development under Linux has never been about a democracy but about those who take an initiative and develop something. Either it gets used and accepted by the community or not. The only 'fascist' element that I've seen is that on occasions Linus is outspoken. There's a saying about "vote with your feet". If there's a vote going on its to accept systemd simply because the vast numbers of users are not , repeat NOT deserting systemd based implementations.
This has been foisted on the OpenSUSE community without ANY prior discussion.
Ah. BIG LIE time again.
Many who you say "agree" with you simply have no opinion because they donb't know ANY of the issues conerning systemd.
I think you mean "they don't care". For them its a "difference that makes no difference". Well, perhaps it makes debugging easier, state machines are ridiculously easy to debug, as any hardware engineer will tell you. They are much more deterministic. That they don't know the issues may well be the case because they don't care, all they care is that their system works. Maybe it works faster now, but that's a side effect and not a design criteria.
Typical leftist -- always trying to inflate the numbersof people who agree with you by counting people who do not, and otherwise trying to inflate the appearance of populareity for your pet causes.
Are you calling me a leftist? Strange. Most people, who deal with me, my managers and peers, call me a conservative. I fail to see what politics has to do with coding system administration. And even if you want to discuss that, this forum is not the place for it. Still, people project what they want to believe. You probably believe that 'leftists' is an insult. As such it says more about you than it does about me.
Try this for once: HONESTY
You'll be amzing at how many enemies it do NOT make.
ROTHFLMAO! You confuse a few concepts here. You believe that you are honest when you are making personally intimidating, insulting and tactless remarks? Even if that were so, its certainly no way to to lead people to accept what you say and come to agree with your views. It seems you can't discuss the technical merits of a piece of code without resorting to personal insults. -- /"\ \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML Mail / \ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
I suppose the majority of people who commented on this article about their distaste for System D are just flat out wrong and severely mislead: http://linux.slashdot.org/story/14/10/20/1944226/debians-systemd-adoption-in... On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 4:41 PM, Anton Aylward <opensuse@antonaylward.com> wrote:
OBTW: Since I subscribe to this list there is no point in cc'ing me.
On 10/22/2014 02:52 PM, Banga Gong wrote:
When did this vote occur?
Development under Linux has never been about a democracy but about those who take an initiative and develop something. Either it gets used and accepted by the community or not.
The only 'fascist' element that I've seen is that on occasions Linus is outspoken.
There's a saying about "vote with your feet". If there's a vote going on its to accept systemd simply because the vast numbers of users are not , repeat NOT deserting systemd based implementations.
This has been foisted on the OpenSUSE community without ANY prior discussion.
Ah. BIG LIE time again.
Many who you say "agree" with you simply have no opinion because they donb't know ANY of the issues conerning systemd.
I think you mean "they don't care". For them its a "difference that makes no difference". Well, perhaps it makes debugging easier, state machines are ridiculously easy to debug, as any hardware engineer will tell you. They are much more deterministic.
That they don't know the issues may well be the case because they don't care, all they care is that their system works. Maybe it works faster now, but that's a side effect and not a design criteria.
Typical leftist -- always trying to inflate the numbersof people who agree with you by counting people who do not, and otherwise trying to inflate the appearance of populareity for your pet causes.
Are you calling me a leftist? Strange. Most people, who deal with me, my managers and peers, call me a conservative. I fail to see what politics has to do with coding system administration. And even if you want to discuss that, this forum is not the place for it.
Still, people project what they want to believe. You probably believe that 'leftists' is an insult. As such it says more about you than it does about me.
Try this for once: HONESTY
You'll be amzing at how many enemies it do NOT make.
ROTHFLMAO!
You confuse a few concepts here. You believe that you are honest when you are making personally intimidating, insulting and tactless remarks? Even if that were so, its certainly no way to to lead people to accept what you say and come to agree with your views.
It seems you can't discuss the technical merits of a piece of code without resorting to personal insults.
-- /"\ \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML Mail / \ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 10/22/2014 07:49 PM, Sam M. wrote:
I suppose the majority of people who commented on this article about their distaste for System D are just flat out wrong and severely mislead:
http://linux.slashdot.org/story/14/10/20/1944226/debians-systemd-adoption-in...
Just because you think that I'm wrong and misled for not agreeing with you, you seem to think that the converse applies. I object to your vitriol and your, personal insults. In that, you are incorrect. You are entitled to your opinion on this matter and are welcome to use a distribution that doesn't use systemd, that doesn't use kde4, that doesn't use ipv6. You are entitled to take the source and, together with like minded individuals, devote the effort into coding and recoding a system to your preferences. That has always been the Linux way; there are many such instances and examples. Android has continued that tradition of FOSS letting others recode the way they want: one such group recently got a large investment. However, as someone once said, the right to go to hell in a hand-basket of your own choosing does not mandate that I have to carry said basket. (Go google for the source) I like the way openSuse is going. If it starts going in a direction that I disfavour enough (all implementations seem to have minor annoyances) then I'll go find another or go associate with a group developing another. I've made that change a couple of times in the past and it has brought me to Suse and I'm happy here. Personally I feel RedHat is too radical for me :-) Your right to dislike systemd does not give you, or aaron/dirk/banga, the right to speculate about my sexual preferences, politics or ancestry in an insulting manner. You can make your case without telling me that I'm foolish to disagree with you. This isn't a matter of religion, life or death, party politics or even money. Its just about some free, open source code. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
I am not Aaron or Dirk or Banga Gong. I'm not the only person on this list that is questioning System D. I understand that you are offended by his insults and I share your sentiments, but I'm not him. On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 5:27 PM, Anton Aylward <opensuse@antonaylward.com> wrote:
On 10/22/2014 07:49 PM, Sam M. wrote:
I suppose the majority of people who commented on this article about their distaste for System D are just flat out wrong and severely mislead:
http://linux.slashdot.org/story/14/10/20/1944226/debians-systemd-adoption-in...
Just because you think that I'm wrong and misled for not agreeing with you, you seem to think that the converse applies. I object to your vitriol and your, personal insults.
In that, you are incorrect. You are entitled to your opinion on this matter and are welcome to use a distribution that doesn't use systemd, that doesn't use kde4, that doesn't use ipv6. You are entitled to take the source and, together with like minded individuals, devote the effort into coding and recoding a system to your preferences. That has always been the Linux way; there are many such instances and examples. Android has continued that tradition of FOSS letting others recode the way they want: one such group recently got a large investment.
However, as someone once said, the right to go to hell in a hand-basket of your own choosing does not mandate that I have to carry said basket. (Go google for the source) I like the way openSuse is going. If it starts going in a direction that I disfavour enough (all implementations seem to have minor annoyances) then I'll go find another or go associate with a group developing another. I've made that change a couple of times in the past and it has brought me to Suse and I'm happy here. Personally I feel RedHat is too radical for me :-)
Your right to dislike systemd does not give you, or aaron/dirk/banga, the right to speculate about my sexual preferences, politics or ancestry in an insulting manner. You can make your case without telling me that I'm foolish to disagree with you.
This isn't a matter of religion, life or death, party politics or even money. Its just about some free, open source code.
-- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon?
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 10/22/2014 08:47 PM, Sam M. wrote:
I am not Aaron or Dirk or Banga Gong. I'm not the only person on this list that is questioning System D. I understand that you are offended by his insults and I share your sentiments, but I'm not him.
Indeed. You top post. He doesn't. But you, like him and the others you mention, don't seem to have a reasoned argument as to why not systemd. It seems to be all emotion and hatred of individuals, if not me, then of Poettering for taking the initiative to replace a flawed procedural based application with a much more flexible and extendible declarative based one, and in doing so applied many of the good programming practices we associate with leading edge software development such as "Don't repeat yourself" (DRY), code reuse (by factoring other functions to use common libraries and utilities), aggressive refactoring. So much of the way sysvinit works is WET - "We Enjoy Typing", sometimes referred to as 'stamp coding". Having begun life in hardware I like the idea of deterministic state machines and clear dependency paths. I've always hated debugging sysvinit scripts for the same reason I hate so many C programs and java programs. Too much is hidden in the individual idiosyncrasies of the programmer. Its not as if all the sysvinit scripts had the same author. Very different from the days of V6 and V7 :-) Dennis may have been idiosyncratic too, but he was just one guy. If the answer is that you are a code guy and don't grok state machines, then fine, I can appreciate that. Just don't take it out on me. I massively prefer administering & configuring a systemd based machine over a sysvinit machine. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
participants (2)
-
Anton Aylward -
Sam M.