[opensuse] Firefox 3.6.x v. 4.0x - Thoughts?
Guys, I hate change for the sake of change. I am on the fence on the "mozilla I want to look like Opera" release. I have both running on different boxes. I don't like the fact that 4 swapped around where the buttons go (you can easily change that), but I do like the opera-like button for bookmarks that is available when the tabs are collapsed. The panorama feature is nice as well, although it is really slow at times. Are there any other technical reasons one way or another that should be considered in deciding whether to removed the lock preventing upgrade to 4 on 11.4? I kind of like them both. I have favorite themes for 3 that of course are incompatible with 4, but that isn't a show stopper. What's the general consensus on power versus usability? The laptop I'm worried about is the 11.4 laptop currently crippled with the Xorg/radeonhd problem, so graphics speed is way down. Anyone else run into speed issues on older hardware? No flames sought, just trying to get a better feel for the changes :) -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 2011/03/24 21:58 (GMT-0500) David C. Rankin composed: Check out https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35579 & https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=620065 before deciding. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, 24 Mar 2011 23:07:35 -0400 Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> wrote:
On 2011/03/24 21:58 (GMT-0500) David C. Rankin composed:
Check out https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35579 & https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=620065 before deciding.
The only problem I've had so far is the way the right click popup menu was changed, specifically the order of opening a new tab/window. Om pre 4.x, the popup showed "open in new tab" as second choice and "open in new window" as first. This was reversed in 4.0 and causes me grief when using different versions. Tom -- Tom Taylor - retired penguin openSuSE 11.3 x86_64 openSUSE 11.4 x86_64 KDE 4.4.4, FF 3.6.8 KDE 4.5.95, FF 4.0 Beta claws-mail 3.7.8 claws-mail 3.7.8 registered linux user 263467 linxt-At-comcast-DoT-net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 25 Mar 2011 02:58:58 David C. Rankin wrote:
Guys,
I hate change for the sake of change. I am on the fence on the "mozilla I want to look like Opera" release. I have both running on different boxes. I don't like the fact that 4 swapped around where the buttons go (you can easily change that), but I do like the opera-like button for bookmarks that is available when the tabs are collapsed. The panorama feature is nice as well, although it is really slow at times.
Are there any other technical reasons one way or another that should be considered in deciding whether to removed the lock preventing upgrade to 4 on 11.4? I kind of like them both. I have favorite themes for 3 that of course are incompatible with 4, but that isn't a show stopper. What's the general consensus on power versus usability?
The laptop I'm worried about is the 11.4 laptop currently crippled with the Xorg/radeonhd problem, so graphics speed is way down. Anyone else run into speed issues on older hardware?
No flames sought, just trying to get a better feel for the changes :)
I'm finding major memory leaks in 4.0 and occasional cpu sucking, so if you're wanting well behaved software on limited resources then 3.6 seems a better bet for now. One pro point with 4.0 is each tab being a process, so flash crashing in one tab won't kill the whole browser like in 3.6, but you have to weigh that against the memory/cpu issues. Usability wise the button repositioning is a pain, but I'm sticking with it for now to see if it really is a better way or not. John. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Am 25.03.2011 11:02, schrieb John Layt:
I'm finding major memory leaks in 4.0 and occasional cpu sucking, so if you're wanting well behaved software on limited resources then 3.6 seems a better bet for now.
There seem to be some issues (what first releases of major updates always suffer from). I have only one issue with 4.0 and that is its combination with firebug.
One pro point with 4.0 is each tab being a process, so flash crashing in one tab won't kill the whole browser like in 3.6, but you have to weigh that against the memory/cpu issues.
That's wrong. Firefox 4 does not use a process for each tab. Only Firefox for Mobile does that (yet). Flash is running outside of the firefox process since 3.6.4 (and always have for 32<->64bit combinations through nspluginwrapper). Please also note that on 11.4 (and sometimes 11.3) the combination of latest 32bit Flash, nspluginwrapper and Firefox 4 has around 90% chance of being broken. I would urge everyone to use Adobe's preview 64bit Flash version which works fine for me. Also the recent Flash players have a lot of issues with different gfx cards. Most of the crashes I read about where it's said that Firefox crashes the whole system I pretty much doubt that. It's more likely to be Flash IMHO.
Usability wise the button repositioning is a pain, but I'm sticking with it for now to see if it really is a better way or not.
Change always is a pain but almost everything can be configured differently. Personally I left it alone and for me it worked out meanwhile. I'd say most of the UI changes make sense in general. And I don't think it's just copying others. Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Hi, Am 25.03.2011 03:58, schrieb David C. Rankin:
I hate change for the sake of change. I am on the fence on the "mozilla I want to look like Opera" release. I have both running on different boxes. I don't like the fact that 4 swapped around where the buttons go (you can easily change that), but I do like the opera-like button for bookmarks that is available when the tabs are collapsed. The panorama feature is nice as well, although it is really slow at times.
I've commented about some technical stuff to a later mail but to the statement "change for the sake of change": Firefox 4 is pretty different in every area to Firefox 3.6. If you need or have use for the changes is your decision. Also note that the web has been getting faster in using new technologies and Firefox 4 has support for a lot of them while 3.6 hasn't. But then again it' still the very first release and obviously still has a few issues probably. I gather most of them are Flash issues (in combination with nspluginwrapper). Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 3/24/2011 9:58 PM, David C. Rankin wrote:
Guys,
I hate change for the sake of change. I am on the fence on the "mozilla I want to look like Opera" release. I have both running on different boxes. I don't like the fact that 4 swapped around where the buttons go (you can easily change that), but I do like the opera-like button for bookmarks that is available when the tabs are collapsed. The panorama feature is nice as well, although it is really slow at times.
Are there any other technical reasons one way or another that should be considered in deciding whether to removed the lock preventing upgrade to 4 on 11.4? I kind of like them both. I have favorite themes for 3 that of course are incompatible with 4, but that isn't a show stopper. What's the general consensus on power versus usability?
The laptop I'm worried about is the 11.4 laptop currently crippled with the Xorg/radeonhd problem, so graphics speed is way down. Anyone else run into speed issues on older hardware?
No flames sought, just trying to get a better feel for the changes :)
Well, FF 4 is supposed to be much more html5 compliant, bringing it more up to date with newer standards. For example it is supposed to be able to play H.264 video natively, without any plugins. I haven't tested that yet as I blindly installed the mplayer plugin right after install, but of course I need that for other formats anyways. I don't like change just for change sake either. To me all the new browser releases seem to be trying to copy Google Chrome, tabs on top, minimal interface, etc. Even the new IE9 looks similar, and is more html5 compliant than any of the new browser updates (which in itself is humorous, (and Microsoft is pushing a campaign to get folks to stop using IE6, the most non-standard browser ever made, and less secure)). But the move of all these browser to be more standards compliant is certainly a good thing, FF4 included. In any case I'm liking FF4. It seems faster to me. And I like the 2 buttons for hidden menu and hidden bookmarks. I do have the menu hidden with easy access thru that button, but haven't changed to the hidden bookmarks as I will have to re-think how I handle things such as my current bookmarks toolbar. But a quick reorganization will fix that too. I am also starting to like Chrome, but haven't tried it on any of my linux machines yet. My 2 cents worth. Jim F -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Am 25.03.2011 13:56, schrieb Jim Flanasgan:
Well, FF 4 is supposed to be much more html5 compliant, bringing it more up to date with newer standards. For example it is supposed to be able to play H.264 video natively, without any plugins. I haven't tested that yet as I blindly installed the mplayer plugin right after install, but of course I need that for other formats anyways.
It's _not_ playing H.264. It's playing WebM/VP8 and Theora though.
I don't like change just for change sake either. To me all the new browser releases seem to be trying to copy Google Chrome, tabs on top, minimal interface, etc.
Tabs on top makes actually sense as the stuff above the tabs was tab dependent. So from a logical point of view only tabs on top make sense at all. And minimal interface is also just evolution as the important stuff happens within the content window nowadays and not in the browser chrome.
Even the new IE9 looks similar, and is more html5 compliant than any of the new browser updates (which in itself is humorous, (and Microsoft is pushing a campaign to get folks to stop using IE6, the most non-standard browser ever made, and less secure)).
I really doubt that pretty much: http://people.mozilla.com/~prouget/ie9/ Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 03/25/2011 08:56 AM, Jim Flanasgan pecked at the keyboard and wrote:
On 3/24/2011 9:58 PM, David C. Rankin wrote:
Well, FF 4 is supposed to be much more html5 compliant, bringing it more up to date with newer standards. For example it is supposed to be able to play H.264 video natively, without any plugins. I haven't tested that yet as I blindly installed the mplayer plugin right after install, but of course I need that for other formats anyways.
I don't like change just for change sake either. To me all the new browser releases seem to be trying to copy Google Chrome, tabs on top, minimal interface, etc. Even the new IE9 looks similar, and is more html5 compliant than any of the new browser updates (which in itself is humorous, (and Microsoft is pushing a campaign to get folks to stop using IE6, the most non-standard browser ever made, and less secure)). But the move of all these browser to be more standards compliant is certainly a good thing, FF4 included.
In any case I'm liking FF4. It seems faster to me. And I like the 2 buttons for hidden menu and hidden bookmarks. I do have the menu hidden with easy access thru that button, but haven't changed to the hidden bookmarks as I will have to re-think how I handle things such as my current bookmarks toolbar. But a quick reorganization will fix that too.
I am also starting to like Chrome, but haven't tried it on any of my linux machines yet.
My 2 cents worth.
Jim F
The only major problem I have had is with saving images. The link is there (save image as) but does not work. I need this to save check images from my bank. For this reason I have gone back to 3.6.16 -- Ken Schneider SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, 2011-03-25 at 09:31 -0400, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:
The only major problem I have had is with saving images. The link is there (save image as) but does not work. I need this to save check images from my bank. For this reason I have gone back to 3.6.16
That has been that way for a while. If you instead choose to view the image info, you can save the image from there. Strange but true. Yours sincerely, Roger Oberholtzer OPQ Systems / Ramböll RST Office: Int +46 10-615 60 20 Mobile: Int +46 70-815 1696 roger.oberholtzer@ramboll.se ________________________________________ Ramböll Sverige AB Krukmakargatan 21 P.O. Box 17009 SE-104 62 Stockholm, Sweden www.rambollrst.se -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 25 March 2011 15:06:11, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
On Fri, 2011-03-25 at 09:31 -0400, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:
The only major problem I have had is with saving images. The link is there (save image as) but does not work. I need this to save check images from my bank. For this reason I have gone back to 3.6.16
That has been that way for a while. If you instead choose to view the image info, you can save the image from there. Strange but true.
In my FF4 i can simply drag and drop any image... oh, and right-click also works for me (Firefox 4.0 on OS 11.3, KDE 4.6) Daniel -- Daniel Bauer photographer Basel Barcelona professional photography: http://www.daniel-bauer.com erotic nudes: http://www.guapamania.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 03/25/2011 10:33 AM, Daniel Bauer pecked at the keyboard and wrote:
On Friday 25 March 2011 15:06:11, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
On Fri, 2011-03-25 at 09:31 -0400, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:
The only major problem I have had is with saving images. The link is there (save image as) but does not work. I need this to save check images from my bank. For this reason I have gone back to 3.6.16
That has been that way for a while. If you instead choose to view the image info, you can save the image from there. Strange but true.
I coundn't save that way either after the online update.
In my FF4 i can simply drag and drop any image... oh, and right-click also works for me (Firefox 4.0 on OS 11.3, KDE 4.6) Daniel
I'm on 11.4 on have this problem with both i586 (desktop and x86-64 (laptop). -- Ken Schneider SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 03/25/2011 10:33 AM, Daniel Bauer pecked at the keyboard and wrote:
On Friday 25 March 2011 15:06:11, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
On Fri, 2011-03-25 at 09:31 -0400, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:
The only major problem I have had is with saving images. The link is there (save image as) but does not work. I need this to save check images from my bank. For this reason I have gone back to 3.6.16
That has been that way for a while. If you instead choose to view the image info, you can save the image from there. Strange but true.
I coundn't save that way either after the online update.
In my FF4 i can simply drag and drop any image... oh, and right-click also works for me (Firefox 4.0 on OS 11.3, KDE 4.6) Daniel
I'm on 11.4 on have this problem with both i586 (desktop and x86-64 (laptop).
The "View Page Info" in the right-context menu does not necessarily appear when clicking anywhere on the page; sometimes the cursor must be moved to a different location. Then the "Media" tab must be chosen and the image selected from the list for saving. Similarly, there is a "View Background Image" which appears with some embedded image files but not others; when this is active the "View Page Info" will point to the image file. There are also a number of image Add-On's that provide this capability. Like with the above, it can depend on how the image is sourced and built into the page, so a given extension may work with one image but not another, or may require a couple of steps (like first isolating the image separately from the main page). If the image is not actually a file but embedded into a single graphical page (like a snapshot of a bank statement page showing check images), then an Add-On like Screengrab or DownThemAll may work. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 25 March 2011 08:31:37 Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:
On 03/25/2011 08:56 AM, Jim Flanasgan pecked at the keyboard and wrote:
On 3/24/2011 9:58 PM, David C. Rankin wrote:
Jim F
The only major problem I have had is with saving images. The link is there (save image as) but does not work. I need this to save check images from my bank. For this reason I have gone back to 3.6.16
you don't need your browser to save the image -- just hit the PrintScreen button, ksnapshot pops up, and you can get a png of all or any portion of whatever's on your screen sc -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 03/25/2011 07:42 AM, sc wrote:
On Friday 25 March 2011 08:31:37 Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:
On 3/24/2011 9:58 PM, David C. Rankin wrote:
Jim F The only major problem I have had is with saving images. The
On 03/25/2011 08:56 AM, Jim Flanasgan pecked at the keyboard and wrote: link is there (save image as) but does not work. I need this to save check images from my bank. For this reason I have gone back to 3.6.16 you don't need your browser to save the image -- just hit the PrintScreen button, ksnapshot pops up, and you can get a png of all or any portion of whatever's on your screen
sc
But printscreen won't save a high-resolution image that the browser has compressed for display. You'll just get low-res version. The OP may also want to try the "View Image Info" button. This screen also gives an option to "Save As" that might work. Regards, Lew -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:
The only major problem I have had is with saving images. The link is there (save image as) but does not work. I need this to save check images from my bank. For this reason I have gone back to 3.6.16
I've just tested this in FF4.0 - the link is there and it works fine too. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (13.2°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 03/25/2011 07:56 AM, Jim Flanasgan wrote:
In any case I'm liking FF4. It seems faster to me. And I like the 2 buttons for hidden menu and hidden bookmarks. I do have the menu hidden with easy access thru that button, but haven't changed to the hidden bookmarks as I will have to re-think how I handle things such as my current bookmarks toolbar. But a quick reorganization will fix that too.
Wolfgang, Felix, Thomas, Jim, Et. Al.... Thanks you all for the great comments. I went ahead and upgraded, swapped the button around so they make sense to me: | < > | BM Home [__address__ add dropdwn reload] [__search__] APB noScript Dld I have the menu hidden (hide menubar extension) and what I do like the real estate that provides (FF3 did the same thing with the extension) What I'm curious about is what do you mean by "hidden menu and hidden bookmarks"? Is that a new feature or though an extension? Would the hidden bookmarks give more real estate that what I current have: [24k screenshot of tabs and address on ff4] http://www.3111skyline.com/dl/suse/bugs/114/firefox/ff4-button-layout.jpg -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 2011/03/26 16:21 (GMT-0500) David C. Rankin composed:
[24k screenshot of tabs and address on ff4] http://www.3111skyline.com/dl/suse/bugs/114/firefox/ff4-button-layout.jpg
Quite some difference from here: http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/Moz/ff40-L120DPI.png -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday, March 26, 2011 03:21:40 pm David C. Rankin wrote:
What I'm curious about is what do you mean by "hidden menu and hidden bookmarks"? Is that a new feature or though an extension? Would the hidden bookmarks give more real estate that what I current have:
[24k screenshot of tabs and address on ff4] http://www.3111skyline.com/dl/suse/bugs/114/firefox/ff4-button-layout.jpg
Have you tried the full-screen view? View -> Full Screen in 3.6.X, not sure about 4.0 (haven't tried it yet). -- Don -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 3/26/11 4:21 PM, David C. Rankin wrote:
On 03/25/2011 07:56 AM, Jim Flanasgan wrote:
In any case I'm liking FF4. It seems faster to me. And I like the 2 buttons for hidden menu and hidden bookmarks. I do have the menu hidden with easy access thru that button, but haven't changed to the hidden bookmarks as I will have to re-think how I handle things such as my current bookmarks toolbar. But a quick reorganization will fix that too.
Wolfgang, Felix, Thomas, Jim, Et. Al....
Thanks you all for the great comments. I went ahead and upgraded, swapped the button around so they make sense to me:
| < > | BM Home [__address__ add dropdwn reload] [__search__] APB noScript Dld
I have the menu hidden (hide menubar extension) and what I do like the real estate that provides (FF3 did the same thing with the extension)
What I'm curious about is what do you mean by "hidden menu and hidden bookmarks"? Is that a new feature or though an extension? Would the hidden bookmarks give more real estate that what I current have:
[24k screenshot of tabs and address on ff4] http://www.3111skyline.com/dl/suse/bugs/114/firefox/ff4-button-layout.jpg
From the looks of it you have the menu hidden (with the Firefox button at top left to get to those functions), and the older style Firefox Bookmarks Toolbar hidden as well. You can easily turn that on and off by the very top menu item that appears on clicking the bookmarks button at top right. Looks like you have everything minimized, but I can't see the bottom info bar, they now call it the add on bar. I'm liking the changes a lot. Still have to reorg my bookmarks... Jim F -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
I like FF 4 a lot. The only reason I used Chrome was speed, otherwise I found it 'alien'. FF is now noticeably faster rendering pages. You can also make tweaks in about:config to increase fetch speeds http://forums.opensuse.org/forums/english/get-technical-help-here/applicatio... Yes, some extensions are not yet FF4 compatible, but you can force that. The critical ones for me are All-in-one-Sidebar (access to Bookmarks, History, page info, etc. from a hiding side panel), Tab Mix Plus, NoScript and FEBE, and they all are compatible. For KDE users, I recommend Oxygen KDE (Firefox Theme) 3.0 from http://kde-look.org/content/show.php/Oxygen+KDE+%28Firefox+Theme%29?content=... It makes FF look like a native KDE app. Panorama (tab grouping) is nifty. Fonts also seem to be 'sharper' in FF4, though I'm getting an occasional artefact where the tab title is sometimes bolded, either all of the text or just some of it. Changing default fonts etc. doesn't cure it. I thought it was caused by Tab Mix Plus (you can bold the text of the focussed tab), but disabling it makes no difference. On 27/03/11 13:00, Jim Flanagan wrote:
On 3/26/11 4:21 PM, David C. Rankin wrote:
On 03/25/2011 07:56 AM, Jim Flanasgan wrote:
In any case I'm liking FF4. It seems faster to me. And I like the 2 buttons for hidden menu and hidden bookmarks. I do have the menu hidden with easy access thru that button, but haven't changed to the hidden bookmarks as I will have to re-think how I handle things such as my current bookmarks toolbar. But a quick reorganization will fix that too.
Wolfgang, Felix, Thomas, Jim, Et. Al....
Thanks you all for the great comments. I went ahead and upgraded, swapped the button around so they make sense to me:
| < > | BM Home [__address__ add dropdwn reload] [__search__] APB noScript Dld
I have the menu hidden (hide menubar extension) and what I do like the real estate that provides (FF3 did the same thing with the extension)
What I'm curious about is what do you mean by "hidden menu and hidden bookmarks"? Is that a new feature or though an extension? Would the hidden bookmarks give more real estate that what I current have:
[24k screenshot of tabs and address on ff4] http://www.3111skyline.com/dl/suse/bugs/114/firefox/ff4-button-layout.jpg
From the looks of it you have the menu hidden (with the Firefox button at top left to get to those functions), and the older style Firefox Bookmarks Toolbar hidden as well. You can easily turn that on and off by the very top menu item that appears on clicking the bookmarks button at top right. Looks like you have everything minimized, but I can't see the bottom info bar, they now call it the add on bar.
I'm liking the changes a lot. Still have to reorg my bookmarks...
Jim F
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
participants (16)
-
Daniel Bauer -
David C. Rankin -
Don Raboud -
dwgallien -
Felix Miata -
Jim Flanagan -
Jim Flanasgan
-
John Layt -
Ken Schneider - openSUSE -
Lew Wolfgang -
Per Jessen -
Roger Oberholtzer -
sc -
Simon Caseley -
Thomas Taylor -
Wolfgang Rosenauer