Novell’s decision to go to great lengths to circumvent the patent framework clearly articulated in the GPL has sent shockwaves through the community. If you are an OpenSUSE developer who is concerned about the long term consequences of this pact, you may be interested in some of the events happening next week as part of the Ubuntu Open Week:
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
We are hosting a series of introductory sessions for people who want to join the Ubuntu community - in any capacity, including developers and package maintainers. If you want to find out how Ubuntu works, how to contribute or participate, or how to get specific items addressed, there will be something for you. I’ll also be on IRC on Tuesday 28th to answer any questions you may have of me specifically, such as Luis’ questions about our position on software patents at http://tieguy.org/blog/2006/11/22/and-ubuntus-patent-stand/
There are a couple of sessions that would be particularly interesting for folks familiar with OpenSUSE. The Kubuntu team is hosting some events during the week to look at KDE and Ubuntu and to discuss the roadmap of their project. There are also a few events being hosted by the Ubuntu Desktop team’s, which I think should include some discussion of the ideas that came from the recent Ubuntu Developer Summit in Mountain View. There are a couple of Packaging 101 and Package Maintenance sessions too, specifically for developers.
Ubuntu is structured to empower our community to get things done, and to maximise the opportunity for collaboration between teams that share a common vision (even if it’s not 100% of their vision, such as between the Gnome, KDE and XFCE desktop teams). While we’re always open to new members, we thought it would be a good idea to identify a dedicated week where new members would be the focus for our whole project.
If you have an interest in being part of a vibrant community that cares about keeping free software widely available and protecting the rights of people to get it free of charge, free to modify, free of murky encumbrances and “undisclosed balance sheet liabilities”, then please do join us.
I know that posting this message to an OpenSUSE list will be controversial. I'm greatly respectful of the long tradition of excellence in the SuSE product and community and have no desire to undermine that with this post. That said, I think the position taken by Novell leadership in their contract with Microsoft is hugely disrespectful of the contributions of thousands of GPL programmers and contributors to SuSE, and I know that many are looking for a new place to get involved that is not subject to the same arbitrary executive intervention. Ubuntu is one option, as are Gentoo, Debian and other communities. Please accept this mail in that spirit.
Mark
On Friday 24 November 2006 13:16, Mark Shuttleworth wrote:
Novell’s decision to go to great lengths to circumvent the patent framework clearly articulated in the GPL has sent shockwaves through the community. If you are an OpenSUSE developer who is concerned about the long term consequences of this pact, you may be interested in some of the events happening next week as part of the Ubuntu Open Week:
Is everybody involved with Ubuntu a spammer?
Death to all spammers!!!!!
Nick
On Friday 24 November 2006 18:16, Mark Shuttleworth wrote:
Novell’s decision to go to great lengths to circumvent the patent framework clearly articulated in the GPL has sent shockwaves through the community. If you are an OpenSUSE developer who is concerned about the long term consequences of this pact, you may be interested in some of the events happening next week as part of the Ubuntu Open Week:
Wow, Sent on a Friday evening (European time), presumably to avoid 'official' comment or rebuttal. That way you get at least two days of discussion without any retort.
Hmmmm, not good.
Pete
On Nov 24, 06 18:31:25 +0000, Pete Connolly wrote:
On Friday 24 November 2006 18:16, Mark Shuttleworth wrote:
Novell???s decision to go to great lengths to circumvent the patent framework clearly articulated in the GPL has sent shockwaves through the community. If you are an OpenSUSE developer who is concerned about the long term consequences of this pact, you may be interested in some of the events happening next week as part of the Ubuntu Open Week:
Wow, Sent on a Friday evening (European time), presumably to avoid 'official' comment or rebuttal. That way you get at least two days of discussion without any retort.
Hmmmm, not good.
Sent from 217.205.109.249 http://samspade.org/whois/217.205.109.249
cheers, Jw.
Mark: no, thanks.
On 11/24/06, Juergen Weigert jw@suse.de wrote:
On Nov 24, 06 18:31:25 +0000, Pete Connolly wrote:
On Friday 24 November 2006 18:16, Mark Shuttleworth wrote:
Novell???s decision to go to great lengths to circumvent the patent framework clearly articulated in the GPL has sent shockwaves through the community. If you are an OpenSUSE developer who is concerned about the long term consequences of this pact, you may be interested in some of the events happening next week as part of the Ubuntu Open Week:
Wow, Sent on a Friday evening (European time), presumably to avoid 'official' comment or rebuttal. That way you get at least two days of discussion without any retort.
Hmmmm, not good.
Sent from 217.205.109.249 http://samspade.org/whois/217.205.109.249
cheers, Jw.-- o \ Juergen Weigert paint it green! __/ _=======.=======_ <V> | jw@suse.de wide open suse_/ _---|____________/ \ | 0911 74053-508 (tm)__/ (____/ /\ (/) | __________________________/ _/ _ vim:set sw=2 wm=8 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 11/24/2006 10:41 AM, Juergen Weigert wrote:
On Nov 24, 06 18:31:25 +0000, Pete Connolly wrote:
On Friday 24 November 2006 18:16, Mark Shuttleworth wrote:
Novell???s decision to go to great lengths to circumvent the patent framework clearly articulated in the GPL has sent shockwaves through the community. If you are an OpenSUSE developer who is concerned about the long term consequences of this pact, you may be interested in some of the events happening next week as part of the Ubuntu Open Week:
Wow, Sent on a Friday evening (European time), presumably to avoid 'official' comment or rebuttal. That way you get at least two days of discussion without any retort.
Hmmmm, not good.
Sent from 217.205.109.249 http://samspade.org/whois/217.205.109.249
cheers, Jw.
That seems legit - EasyNet is one of the biggest ISPs in Great Britain where Mr. Shuttleworth lives. The Ubuntu folks tend to be decentralized.
Saill
On Friday 24 November 2006 10:05, Saill White wrote:
On 11/24/2006 10:41 AM, Juergen Weigert wrote:
On Nov 24, 06 18:31:25 +0000, Pete Connolly wrote:
On Friday 24 November 2006 18:16, Mark Shuttleworth wrote:
Novell???s decision to go to great lengths to circumvent the patent framework clearly articulated in the GPL has sent shockwaves through the community. If you are an OpenSUSE developer who is concerned about the long term consequences of this pact, you may be interested in some of the events happening next week as part of the Ubuntu Open Week:
Wow, Sent on a Friday evening (European time), presumably to avoid 'official' comment or rebuttal. That way you get at least two days of discussion without any retort.
Hmmmm, not good.
Sent from 217.205.109.249 http://samspade.org/whois/217.205.109.249
cheers, Jw.That seems legit - EasyNet is one of the biggest ISPs in Great Britain where Mr. Shuttleworth lives. The Ubuntu folks tend to be decentralized.
Saill
But don't you think Mark would have been savvy enough to sign is mail?
But don't you think Mark would have been savvy enough to sign is mail?
who cares? Its here: http://planet.ubuntu.com/ and here: http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/81
One knows in what to spend his time in...
Marcio --- druid
On 2006-11-24 15:16, Druid wrote:
But don't you think Mark would have been savvy enough to sign is mail?
who cares? Its here: http://planet.ubuntu.com/ and here: http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/81
One knows in what to spend his time in...
OK, so it is probably legitimate (ie. Shuttleworth probably did post it).
Can we just kill it by silence now?
Can we just kill it by silence now?
No. Sorry.
At least for now
Yours
Marcio --- druid licensed to troll
On Friday 24 November 2006 18:16, Mark Shuttleworth wrote:
Novell’s decision to go to great lengths to circumvent the patent framework clearly articulated in the GPL has sent shockwaves through the community. If you are an OpenSUSE developer who is concerned about the long term consequences of this pact, you may be interested in some of the events happening next week as part of the Ubuntu Open Week:
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
We are hosting a series of introductory sessions for people who want to join the Ubuntu community - in any capacity, including developers and package maintainers. If you want to find out how Ubuntu works, how to contribute or participate, or how to get specific items addressed, there will be something for you. I’ll also be on IRC on Tuesday 28th to answer any questions you may have of me specifically, such as Luis’ questions about our position on software patents at http://tieguy.org/blog/2006/11/22/and-ubuntus-patent-stand/
There are a couple of sessions that would be particularly interesting for folks familiar with OpenSUSE. The Kubuntu team is hosting some events during the week to look at KDE and Ubuntu and to discuss the roadmap of their project. There are also a few events being hosted by the Ubuntu Desktop team’s, which I think should include some discussion of the ideas that came from the recent Ubuntu Developer Summit in Mountain View. There are a couple of Packaging 101 and Package Maintenance sessions too, specifically for developers.
Ubuntu is structured to empower our community to get things done, and to maximise the opportunity for collaboration between teams that share a common vision (even if it’s not 100% of their vision, such as between the Gnome, KDE and XFCE desktop teams). While we’re always open to new members, we thought it would be a good idea to identify a dedicated week where new members would be the focus for our whole project.
If you have an interest in being part of a vibrant community that cares about keeping free software widely available and protecting the rights of people to get it free of charge, free to modify, free of murky encumbrances and “undisclosed balance sheet liabilities”, then please do join us.
I know that posting this message to an OpenSUSE list will be controversial. I'm greatly respectful of the long tradition of excellence in the SuSE product and community and have no desire to undermine that with this post. That said, I think the position taken by Novell leadership in their contract with Microsoft is hugely disrespectful of the contributions of thousands of GPL programmers and contributors to SuSE, and I know that many are looking for a new place to get involved that is not subject to the same arbitrary executive intervention. Ubuntu is one option, as are Gentoo, Debian and other communities. Please accept this mail in that spirit.
There are about 15 days to the release of openSUSE 10.2 GoldMaster, the best distribution to be available by that time, so probably there isn't too much time next week to look other ways.
But indeed, collaboration among all and learning from each other, is what is needed, even between Ubuntu and openSUSE.
(Just my 2 cents)
Hugo
On 11/24/2006 10:37 AM, Hugo Costelha wrote:
There are about 15 days to the release of openSUSE 10.2 GoldMaster, the best distribution to be available by that time, so probably there isn't too much time next week to look other ways.
Interesting that Novell and Microsoft chose to make the big announcement at exactly the time when the Suse developers were at the peak of their involvement and investment in their work.
(Just my 2 cents)
Hugo
Mine too.
Saill
I think this is the ONLY possible way Ubuntu will be able to have a distro of the level of OpenSUSE: Using OpenSUSE developers. But I highly doubt that OpenSUSE developers will downgrade their distro to Ubuntu. I guess Ubuntu will have to look for developers somewhere else.
Sincerely,
David.
Mark Shuttleworth wrote:
Novell’s decision to go to great lengths to circumvent the patent framework clearly articulated in the GPL has sent shockwaves through the community. If you are an OpenSUSE developer who is concerned about the long term consequences of this pact, you may be interested in some of the events happening next week as part of the Ubuntu Open Week:
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
We are hosting a series of introductory sessions for people who want to join the Ubuntu community - in any capacity, including developers and package maintainers. If you want to find out how Ubuntu works, how to contribute or participate, or how to get specific items addressed, there will be something for you. I’ll also be on IRC on Tuesday 28th to answer any questions you may have of me specifically, such as Luis’ questions about our position on software patents at http://tieguy.org/blog/2006/11/22/and-ubuntus-patent-stand/
There are a couple of sessions that would be particularly interesting for folks familiar with OpenSUSE. The Kubuntu team is hosting some events during the week to look at KDE and Ubuntu and to discuss the roadmap of their project. There are also a few events being hosted by the Ubuntu Desktop team’s, which I think should include some discussion of the ideas that came from the recent Ubuntu Developer Summit in Mountain View. There are a couple of Packaging 101 and Package Maintenance sessions too, specifically for developers.
Ubuntu is structured to empower our community to get things done, and to maximise the opportunity for collaboration between teams that share a common vision (even if it’s not 100% of their vision, such as between the Gnome, KDE and XFCE desktop teams). While we’re always open to new members, we thought it would be a good idea to identify a dedicated week where new members would be the focus for our whole project.
If you have an interest in being part of a vibrant community that cares about keeping free software widely available and protecting the rights of people to get it free of charge, free to modify, free of murky encumbrances and “undisclosed balance sheet liabilities”, then please do join us.
I know that posting this message to an OpenSUSE list will be controversial. I'm greatly respectful of the long tradition of excellence in the SuSE product and community and have no desire to undermine that with this post. That said, I think the position taken by Novell leadership in their contract with Microsoft is hugely disrespectful of the contributions of thousands of GPL programmers and contributors to SuSE, and I know that many are looking for a new place to get involved that is not subject to the same arbitrary executive intervention. Ubuntu is one option, as are Gentoo, Debian and other communities. Please accept this mail in that spirit.
Mark
• From: Mark Shuttleworth mark@xxxxxxxxxx • Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 18:16:57 +0000
Novell???s decision to go to great lengths to circumvent the patent framework clearly articulated in the GPL has sent shockwaves through the community. If you are an OpenSUSE developer who is concerned about the long term consequences of this pact, you may be interested in some of the events happening next week as part of the Ubuntu Open Week:
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
We are hosting a series of introductory sessions for people who want to join the Ubuntu community - in any capacity, including developers and package maintainers. If you want to find out how Ubuntu works, how to contribute or participate, or how to get specific items addressed, there will be something for you. I’ll also be on IRC on Tuesday 28th to answer any questions you may have of me specifically, such as Luis’ questions about our position on software patents at http://tieguy.org/blog/2006/11/22/and-ubuntus-patent-stand/
No thanks. Although I do not get all of the Novell deal or the FUD and FUD everyone is talking about, and even if Novell is doing 'Something Bad Everyone Should Frown About', I'd rather give my developer power to something not Debian-based, possibly extending beyond Linux*.
-`J'
* Not necessarily Windows, but thinking of BSD and Solaris. --
Mark Shuttleworth a écrit :
I know that posting this message to an OpenSUSE list will be controversial.
I think the tone of this message is controversial. You can have any opinion you like against the Novell/Microsoft agreement, but taking this to try such hack against openSUSE developpers is very far near a war declaration. I hope it's not.
For I don't see Unbutu better than openSUSE on any respect
jdd
On Nov 24 2006 20:39, jdd wrote:
Mark Shuttleworth a écrit :
I know that posting this message to an OpenSUSE list will be controversial.
I think the tone of this message is controversial. You can have any opinion you like against the Novell/Microsoft agreement, but taking this to try such hack against openSUSE developpers is very far near a war declaration. I hope it's not.
For I don't see Unbutu better than openSUSE on any respect
Speaking of which, technical abilities, I have yet to see a distribution besides SUSE that supports XFS-on-`/'-on-RAID out-of-the-box.
-`J' --
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Mark Shuttleworth schrieb:
I know that many are looking for a new place
At least not me and many others will stay too.
Nothing against collaboration between the different distributions, but my opinion is to let everyone decide himself, which one he wants to use or support. Such a mail like yours leeds to the contrary you want to achieve.
I will stay with Novell/Suse and contribute my (very, very small, but existing) part to the community.
Regards, Chris
On 11/24/06, Mark Shuttleworth mark@ubuntu.com wrote:
Novell's decision to go to great lengths to circumvent the patent framework clearly articulated in the GPL has sent shockwaves through the community.
Yes, we too are pissed about it. But most of us not probably to the extent we'd be willing to let SUSE go anywhere.
If you are an OpenSUSE developer who is concerned about the long term consequences of this pact, you may be interested in some of the events happening next week as part of the Ubuntu Open Week:
I ran Kubuntu Edgy on few systems for a week. Was really pleasantly surprised, altough few things really amazed me: - It's a desktop system in year 2006 that does not ship with any sort of netfilter (firewall) rules by default. This is huge. We need to keep the image of Linux as a secure system! Even if no services are actually enabled attack vector is still considerably bigger. Packets make it all the way to the protocol stack (versus prerouting hook). - Apt still does not support multiple architectures. There's no way around the fact that in 64bit Linux you just can't live without 32bit software (32bit nsplugins for kde, Firefox etc). That chroot thingy is really a kludge around this fact.
That, and there were few quality slippages such as update system offering broken x11 packages. But hey, these things happen. Anyway, will participate just out of curiosity.
It is interesting how everyone in the community seems intent on dividing it, committing suicide by infighting.
Congratulations, Mr. Shuttleworth. You are doing a fine job of doing Microsoft's FUD work for them.
On Friday 24 November 2006 19:16, Mark Shuttleworth wrote:
Novell’s decision to go to great lengths to circumvent the patent framework clearly articulated in the GPL has sent shockwaves through the community. If you are an OpenSUSE developer who is concerned about the long term consequences of this pact, you may be interested in some of the events happening next week as part of the Ubuntu Open Week:
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
We are hosting a series of introductory sessions for people who want to join the Ubuntu community - in any capacity, including developers and package maintainers. If you want to find out how Ubuntu works, how to contribute or participate, or how to get specific items addressed, there will be something for you. I’ll also be on IRC on Tuesday 28th to answer any questions you may have of me specifically, such as Luis’ questions about our position on software patents at http://tieguy.org/blog/2006/11/22/and-ubuntus-patent-stand/
There are a couple of sessions that would be particularly interesting for folks familiar with OpenSUSE. The Kubuntu team is hosting some events during the week to look at KDE and Ubuntu and to discuss the roadmap of their project. There are also a few events being hosted by the Ubuntu Desktop team’s, which I think should include some discussion of the ideas that came from the recent Ubuntu Developer Summit in Mountain View. There are a couple of Packaging 101 and Package Maintenance sessions too, specifically for developers.
Ubuntu is structured to empower our community to get things done, and to maximise the opportunity for collaboration between teams that share a common vision (even if it’s not 100% of their vision, such as between the Gnome, KDE and XFCE desktop teams). While we’re always open to new members, we thought it would be a good idea to identify a dedicated week where new members would be the focus for our whole project.
If you have an interest in being part of a vibrant community that cares about keeping free software widely available and protecting the rights of people to get it free of charge, free to modify, free of murky encumbrances and “undisclosed balance sheet liabilities”, then please do join us.
I know that posting this message to an OpenSUSE list will be controversial. I'm greatly respectful of the long tradition of excellence in the SuSE product and community and have no desire to undermine that with this post. That said, I think the position taken by Novell leadership in their contract with Microsoft is hugely disrespectful of the contributions of thousands of GPL programmers and contributors to SuSE, and I know that many are looking for a new place to get involved that is not subject to the same arbitrary executive intervention. Ubuntu is one option, as are Gentoo, Debian and other communities. Please accept this mail in that spirit.
Mark
I have to agree completely!!!!!
Novell has done more for Unix and Linux then any other company in history and they still don't get any respect.
People get a life. Novell is a commercial entity and is acting like one. What a surprise. I don't care about the patent packed one way or the other. I do care about Mono and Xen as those are my roads to less dependence on MS.
Anders Johansson wrote:
It is interesting how everyone in the community seems intent on dividing it, committing suicide by infighting.
Congratulations, Mr. Shuttleworth. You are doing a fine job of doing Microsoft's FUD work for them.
On Fri, 2006-11-24 at 18:16 +0000, Mark Shuttleworth wrote:
I know that posting this message to an OpenSUSE list will be controversial. I'm greatly respectful of the long tradition of excellence in the SuSE product and community and have no desire to undermine that with this post. That said, I think the position taken by
You can try and dress it up all you want, but you're an intelligent person and you knew exactly what you were doing when you sent this and I doubt the motive was not pure.
Novell leadership in their contract with Microsoft is hugely disrespectful of the contributions of thousands of GPL programmers and contributors to SuSE, and I know that many are looking for a new place to get involved that is not subject to the same arbitrary executive intervention. Ubuntu is one option, as are Gentoo, Debian and other communities. Please accept this mail in that spirit.
Are you seriously saying you have no arbitrary executive power over ubuntu? You could seriously damage the project at least in the near term by withdrawing your monetary support.
What about disrespect on your side:
1) Having a stated policy of not funding any significant new software development because the Return on Investment is not good enough
2) Preventing the Debian GNOME maintainer from updating GNOME packages until after Ubuntu LSO had shipped because you had hired him.
3) Not releasing any source code for launchpad/rosetta/malone to maintain a competitive advantage
4) Planning to rely on the community to support your for profit ventures (you can say you aren't but since the entire canonical staff last I heard is less than the size of the just the kernel teams of either Novell/SuSE or RedHat... )
5) Trying to simultaneously supplant Debian's community with "Ubuntu" while relying heavily on the Debian community to be successful.
You come in to denigrate and to divide this here based on the actions of Novell as a company, yet you rely on projects that have major contributions from Novell employees (for that matter from Sun which has a deal with Microsoft, IBM, etc):
1) the kernel
2) glibc, gcc
3) X
4) GNOME and KDE
6) Xgl/compiz/beryl
7) beagle/f-spot/banshee
8) etc, etc, etc
Its your right to disagree with the MS/Novell agreement, but this tactic is extremely underhanded because its not in the spirit of community and cooperation at all.
-JP
Mark, welcome on this list,
Am Friday 24 November 2006 19:16 schrieb Mark Shuttleworth: ...
I know that posting this message to an OpenSUSE list will be controversial. I'm greatly respectful of the long tradition of excellence in the SuSE product and community and have no desire to undermine that with this post. That said, I think the position taken by Novell leadership in their contract with Microsoft is hugely disrespectful of the contributions of thousands of GPL programmers and contributors to SuSE, and I know that many are looking for a new place to get involved that is not subject to the same arbitrary executive intervention. Ubuntu is one option, as are Gentoo, Debian and other communities. Please accept this mail in that spirit.
I do accept that your disagreement with the contract, but I would like to ask you not to create the impression that SUSE or openSUSE.org is acting against GPL programmers. There is no practical change for GPL programmers by this contract (only for commercial Novell customers there is a change), anything else is FUD spread between open source communities.
FUD is something what an open source project should keep away, since quite a lot of the developers from Canonical and SUSE do work together in various GPL based open source projects and we should avoid any bad blood to keep the good atmosphere there. FUD does divide us and do not make us stronger together.
good evening adrian
PS: seriously, I promise you that your baby (Ubuntu) is known enough, so everybody who want to switch will find it :) There is no reason for risking exact the situation some certain large commercial software company would like to have. Lets show them that in any doubt the open modell of open source communities, even when they may be competitive, remains to be stronger.
PS: seriously, I promise you that your baby (Ubuntu) is known enough, so everybody who want to switch will find it :) There is no reason for risking exact the situation some certain large commercial software company would like to have. Lets show them that in any doubt the open modell of open source communities, even when they may be competitive, remains to be stronger.
and I would add a "its ok to be jealous" stick in the end
Yours
Marcio --- druid
On Friday 24 November 2006 12:21, Adrian Schröter wrote:
PS: seriously, I promise you that your baby (Ubuntu) is known enough, so everybody who want to switch will find it :) There is no reason for risking exact the situation some certain large commercial software company would like to have.
Its good you recognize now the wishes of said certain software company. Its too bad you management did not have this firmly in mind earlier.
This discussion topic would not exist had the door not been opened by Novell's anti-competitive actions in negotiating this patent agreement and trying to use same as a marketing tool.
I hope both distros, Suse and Ubuntu can compete on product quality and usability rather than divisive marketing ploys.
I hope both distros, Suse and Ubuntu can compete on product quality and usability rather than divisive marketing ploys.
yeah same for me.. But ubuntu has a loooooong way to come still...
Fortunately, its getting better, and one day I hope to see it growing in a very good distribution and a real option for those wanting Linux. Good to see these new distros growing so fast, it will be usable very soon, I hope.
Cheers
Marcio --- druid
Not sure whether you have seen these reactions, especially the first two from Ubuntu folks are interesting to read:
http://www.advogato.org/person/Burgundavia/diary.html?start=113 https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2006-November/022578.html http://www.novell.com/coolblogs/?p=648 http://daniel.molkentin.de/blog/index.php?/archives/58-Ubuntus-Quest-for-Ope... http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/2553
Andreas
Your (Andreas')comments on your blog are really what would be the most productive... if Ubunutu and openSUSE were to collaborate in a combined effort to educate people about Linux.... well the results would be very interesting.
C.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Clayton wrote:
Your (Andreas')comments on your blog are really what would be the most productive... if Ubunutu and openSUSE were to collaborate in a
collaborate ? hahahahahahaaahahahhaHHahahah.. lol... sorry...
combined effort to educate people about Linux.... well the results would be very interesting.
Where have you seen distributions collaborate, lately ? or at all ? And don't tell me Debian and Ubuntu, that's abuse (Ubuntu abusing Debian, not the opposite), not collaboration.
Distributions that have some sort of commercial interests (such as Fedora, SUSE, Ubuntu, not even to mention SLES and RHES) don't collaborate, they are competing, by definition.
While Fedora and SUSE are non-enterprise, pretty much non-commercial distros, their primary goal (for Redhat and Novell, respectively) is to have as much "market share" as possible to sell as much of their enterprise distribution as possible (RHES and SLED/SLES, respectively).
cheers - -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\ pascal.bleser@skynet.be guru@unixtech.be __v The more things change, the more they stay insane.
On Friday 24 November 2006 22:06, Pascal Bleser wrote:
Where have you seen distributions collaborate, lately ? or at all ? And don't tell me Debian and Ubuntu, that's abuse (Ubuntu abusing Debian, not the opposite), not collaboration.
Really? Ubuntu is probably the single biggest contributor to Debian, both in terms of money and manpower.
On Nov 25 2006 08:06, Pascal Bleser wrote:
Clayton wrote:
Your (Andreas')comments on your blog are really what would be the most productive... if Ubunutu and openSUSE were to collaborate in a
collaborate ? hahahahahahaaahahahhaHHahahah.. lol... sorry...
Yeah. Remember United Linux? It was possible the best partnership idea (shared the 'rpm' tool, etc), yet it failed. I don't consider a "United SUSE-Debian Linux" any success whatsoever.
On Nov 24 2006 22:15, John Andersen wrote:
On Friday 24 November 2006 22:06, Pascal Bleser wrote:
Where have you seen distributions collaborate, lately ? or at all ? And don't tell me Debian and Ubuntu, that's abuse (Ubuntu abusing Debian, not the opposite), not collaboration.
Really? Ubuntu is probably the single biggest contributor to Debian, both in terms of money and manpower.
#define quality suse #define quantity debian_ubuntu
Quality is better than quantity.
-`J'
On Saturday 25 November 2006 12:38, Jan Engelhardt wrote:
On Nov 24 2006 22:15, John Andersen wrote:
On Friday 24 November 2006 22:06, Pascal Bleser wrote:
Where have you seen distributions collaborate, lately ? or at all ? And don't tell me Debian and Ubuntu, that's abuse (Ubuntu abusing Debian, not the opposite), not collaboration.
Really? Ubuntu is probably the single biggest contributor to Debian, both in terms of money and manpower.
#define quality suse #define quantity debian_ubuntu
Quality is better than quantity.
Perfectly acceptable definitions, but It wasn't the point I was addressing.
I was merely pointing out that Canonical has spent more money and staff time contributing to Debian than anyone else, and in so doing, raised it from a minor player with a political axe to grind to a major player.
I don't like everything they have done, but then I don't like everything Novell has done for Suse either.
As an aside, I don't have any major quality issues with Kubuntu and Xubuntu - at least none that rise to the level of the broken ZMD debacle of recent history. It would probably be polite to have pot wait a couple of releases before calling the kettle black.
On Saturday 25 November 2006 23:03, John Andersen wrote:
I don't like everything they have done, but then I don't like everything Novell has done for Suse either.
As an aside, I don't have any major quality issues with Kubuntu and Xubuntu - at least none that rise to the level of the broken ZMD debacle of recent history. It would probably be polite to have pot wait a couple of releases before calling the kettle black.
Sure, the distro is really too basic to be broken. Ubuntu basically integrate and freeload what debian, novell, redhat and others produce, without further innovation, and appart of a installer that basically copies a image to the disk and gives you a empty desktop with common applications, there is not more beyond that. Lot of users have enough with it, and that is ok.
Once you need to configure stuff (as Daniel Molkentin says very well in his blog) then you realize how basic the distro is.
with Novell, Redhat and other distros, you can expect some controversial changes to be done, because there is some risk taken in order to innovate:
- 3D desktop was introduced - Desktops with usability changes in mind. - OpenOffice native desktop integration - ZenWorks provides a enterprise level software deployment system, and SLE is ready to be used with that. - zypp patch management. - Xen was introduced in the kernel. - networkmanager. Basically maintained by Redhat and Novell. The kde integration is Novell work. - SUSE is one of the few distros where you can setup strange raids+lvm+etc with a few clicks. - YaST remains the best configuration tool for Linux. Opensource, and supporting 3 user interface backends. - The opensuse build service is one of the most innovative services provided to the community, and it is opensource (launchpad anyone?)
The community behind openSUSE is who gives us direction when we innovate and break. 10.2 is a perfect example in how the community gave its feedback to fix as much as possible what we broke in 10.1. There is no valid excuse to not ship a high quality distro.
To be honest, I am proud of how broken our factory sometimes is, because it shows how much we want to fix bug #1.
just my 2 cents.
Duncan
On Monday 27 November 2006 03:47, Duncan Mac-Vicar Prett wrote:
On Saturday 25 November 2006 23:03, John Andersen wrote:
<snip>
with Novell, Redhat and other distros, you can expect some controversial changes to be done, because there is some risk taken in order to innovate:
- 3D desktop was introduced
- Desktops with usability changes in mind.
<snip>
just my 2 cents.
Excellent post, Duncan. I plan to keep this around and utilize it for reminding myself why one would like a full-fledged distro like SUSE and why you people over at suse.de and novell.com are working so hard every day.
Thanks!
Oh, and many thanks to SUSE for helping out on my recent little vacation. On the road - four hours - I had SUSE running two shows on the laptop for the kids in the back seat. In the hotel, SUSE found the most appropriate WiFi connection and was able to help me make (a) museum and (b) dinner reservations without needing the phone line.
Pascal Bleser a écrit :
Where have you seen distributions collaborate, lately ? or at all ?
distributions, as so, that is to say as named entities don't really collaborate (no "Mandriva _and_ openSUSE day", but all the GPL applications are common, and, at least, Novell collaborates in many big projects with others (openoffice, Xen, kernel...), so yes there is a collaboration, but regretably not visible enough
jdd
On 11/24/2006 10:07 PM, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
Not sure whether you have seen these reactions, especially the first two from Ubuntu folks are interesting to read:
http://www.advogato.org/person/Burgundavia/diary.html?start=113 https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2006-November/022578.html http://www.novell.com/coolblogs/?p=648 http://daniel.molkentin.de/blog/index.php?/archives/58-Ubuntus-Quest-for-Ope... http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/2553
All questions of divisiveness and GPL-fidelity aside, two things impress me deeply here.
1. Grand Ubuntu Poobah's cojones in coming forth as an individual and issuing such an invitation.
2. The freedom and public openness with which others in the organization state their views on their leader's decision.
Quite remarkable.
Saill
Andreas Jaeger wrote:
Not sure whether you have seen these reactions, especially the first two from Ubuntu folks are interesting to read:
http://www.advogato.org/person/Burgundavia/diary.html?start=113 https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2006-November/022578.html http://www.novell.com/coolblogs/?p=648 http://daniel.molkentin.de/blog/index.php?/archives/58-Ubuntus-Quest-for-Ope... http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/2553
Andreas
http://www.novell.com/coolblogs/?p=648
SuSE's great engineering...!
That's what I'm talking about. This is what, I for one, really like about suse. It is really good. Solid and tight. And literally packed full of almost anything you could want or think of. If it ain't in there, download it or make it yourself. It ain't perfect, but it's dang good. I"m not so sure about the other guys good marketing (I have yet to get ubuntu to boot on my office machine, 3 versions later). I mean, suse really looks good to me. It took quite a while, but I find among many windows boxes, I really like using suse with kde. Its good. Has its quirks, but most do. It just took a while to get used to. I truly like it. (Haven't seen the new menus others are complaining about. But if its kde I'm sure you can change it in a snap). One of the first things I got used to very quickly was just everyday surfing. Firefox is good, so is Opera, and Konqueror but I'm not used to it on the web.(Konqueror does do one heck of an ftp download). And with the piece of mind of a much reduced risk of being effected by the mass of rot there is out there. Windows guys, can you say safe?
Many other things start to stand out once you get the feel of it. It is different. Installing apps, whoa! You mean you can't just double-click it? What kind of deal is this? But for a newbie that's probably good. They can't change too many things at first and screw stuff up. It is powerful machinery. As you learn it, it gets easier. And as an added bonus you get to learn much more about computers in general than you ever knew about. Even if you think you know something about computers. I am of course talking about coming from windows here, although you can learn here wherever you come from.
I was thinking about Balmer's comments at the Professional Association for SQL Server conference. At first I could not believe that. I didn't need to read upcoming news stories to see that that was a double slap in the face. The gaul of those people, I was thinking. I mean, do they continually spit out all this goop that they actually believe it, or more, that they are so used to spitting out all of this stuff about their actual software (how well its built, safe, secure, blah blah blah) that they just are really used to doing that. Spewing. But now I think that they actually really don't care much. They just throw this bullshite out there just because. Bust because they can. And just for the fun of it. They don't care one way or another. They throw it out there, and if they get the reaction they wanted, so much the better. I mean with all of this stuff out here in the lists of all the angry discussions, the fracturing of some of our community. If they beat us on that, they will say that was easy. But if we stay our course (with upcoming changes big and small; thats what this community is best at. Change), well then - they will have to compete on technology, not fud, mud, or drud.
Actually compete.
One thing that was made clear is that they intend to compete. Compete, compete, compete. Sha.
Thats why I like suse. It is great engineering! The base is solid, the trimmings are nice, the distro is complete, best in breed configuration, and leading edge. What more could you ask for? Truly? That's why 'they' picked Novell. Suse is good. What an endorsement. Or what a threat. Who cares? Lets just do what we do. Let the people at novell who do the selling, sell. I don't know you guys, but knock yourselves out! I'm looking for a good, long term growth, stock to buy. Actually more than one, but that's another story :) Someone here said that that's what we wanted novell to do, make it commercial. Make it a commercial success. Let help them. For better or worse, we're here now. Lets get it on. I'm no developer TSTL. But is use it, and tweak it a bit. And tried installing gnome to check that out, and i started a server with email and web services, then i replaced it with a better server, only set up better. PIII. Other than slow graphics, that thing humms, and is as steady as a rock in the rain. Never stutters. At least not so far. Astounding what's in there. Truly.
Well, sorry for the length. I just wanted to say that as long as Andreas and his group is hyped, i'm with him. I'll upgrade when I'm convinced, as before. Till then, there is no reason to change a thing. If suse dorks, well I'll change then. At this point I don't intend to. As long as it keeps getting better, I'm a happy man. And I'll go on doing my meager part of merely enjoying the use of it. I'm looking forward to 10.2. If you are a windows user, how long has it been since you've set down at your computer, and knew exactly where it was at, what it was doing, not worrying for an instant that is wasn't doing exactly the same thing was doing 6 months ago. Gives me peace of mind. 'Works great / more secure'. Sounds like a beer commercial.
Anyway, I've been in suse since 8.2. Good issue, but many great advances since then as well. I think that is why this news has hit some of us so hard. We know how good suse is, esp compared to others distros. We just don't want to see this great technology be lead by its owners (current or otherwise) to be less that its potential. I for one am staying with it. To me the upside of what suse can be is worth more to me than the cost of changing at this point. There is something special with suse and its community. Somehow it came to be the best, but without the most hype or press, to say the least. There is something special in that.
I'm with Andreas and this community.
Jim Flanagan
On Fri, 2006-11-24 at 18:16 +0000, Mark Shuttleworth wrote:
Novell’s decision to go to great lengths to circumvent the patent framework clearly articulated in the GPL has sent shockwaves through the community. If you are an OpenSUSE developer who is concerned about the long term consequences of this pact, you may be interested in some of the events happening next week as part of the Ubuntu Open Week:
"circumvent the patent framework clearly articulated in the GPL"
I think the point of the agreement was not that MS or Novell wanted to ADD patented things to Linux. It was to protect from the claim that things protected by patent are ALREADY THERE, claiming to be GPL. I can't claim to be able to prove this one way or the other. But if (for the sake or argument) there is patented code in open source, it will be in Ubuntu's as well.
Perhaps, now that MS is somehow legally connected to a Linux distro, that can lead to MS clearing up the FUD (from all sides) on this. Steve B's wilecat statement that Linux owes MS and Novell's counterclaim that this is not the case will surely be played out so the claim is settled one way or the other. MS and Novell now have a dialog. Surely this can only be good. I'm not naive. Just trying to think positive.
How SUSE developers jumping ship to Ubuntu will help this patent issue along is unclear to me.
Perhaps Mike would have been better off simply offering that Ububtu and OpenSUSE work together in the Linux spirit of openness. The fact that SUSE's build service allows builds for more distro than SUSE tells me this would have been met with a positive response.
Too bad the offer to work together was mixed with FUD-
-- Roger Oberholtzer
On 2006-11-25 01:53, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
On Fri, 2006-11-24 at 18:16 +0000, Mark Shuttleworth wrote:
Novell’s decision to go to great lengths to circumvent the patent framework clearly articulated in the GPL has sent shockwaves through the community. If you are an OpenSUSE developer who is concerned about the long term consequences of this pact, you may be interested in some of the events happening next week as part of the Ubuntu Open Week:
<snip>
Too bad the offer to work together was mixed with FUD-
Which is why it should be killed with silence.
On 2006-11-27 04:01, Russell Jones wrote:
That cannot work. MS are hardly going to be quiet about it, are they?
Darryl Gregorash wrote:
Which is why it should be killed with silence.
I wasn't talking about MS, then, was I? I was referring to Mark the Troll Shuttleworth.
People,
Please realize that Mark Shuttleworth did something like this before when he started Ubuntu. He publicly offered paying jobs to the top Debian developers. As far as Ubuntu is concerned, it worked! Many things implemented by (K,X, whatever)Ubuntu are now ending up in Debian, rather than the other way around. The Ubuntu team actually makes things happen faster in most cases. Developers do need to eat.
Mark believes that operating systems ought to be pretty close to free when it comes to paying for them. Remember that he contributes many millions each year to pay for that process so that it can be free for others.
He stated that his post (which is available elsewhere) would be controversial. Not only does he say that he respects the developers, he has shown it. From his wording, several Suse developers have contacted him, it appears. He's offering volunteer positions for those who wish to stay as volunteers in a GPL-centric environment, one where it's known the rules don't change. Some of those people WILL end up with paid positions. Mark has the money to make that happen, and the authority to make it happen as well.
Mark has PUBLICLY stated he has an issue with the Novell administration doing this. The last time that a major Linux distro did a deal with Microsoft, it was Lindows (now Linspire). It backfired on them because they accepted many millions from Microsoft, and the money ALL ended up paying their legal bills instead of advancing their cause. As a result, their founder, Michael Robertson, effectively pulled out of the company and gave it to Kevin Carmony. Linspire now is outpaced by Freespire. Distrowatch rankings put Freespire on the up & coming and Linspire on the down & out. Linspire as a company and especially as a driving force will not recover, but Freespire has a bigger following.
Take a look at Mark's comments in the spirit intended. He has PROVEN he's respectful of the developers. He's got some radically different ideas about how things should run, and I certainly don't agree with everything he does, but he IS fairly consistent.
There is a large contingent of the disenfranchised with Novell out there. Some want to jump ship. Let them explore. Some will leave permanently, some will be back.
But above all, please realize that this event is SIGNIFICANTLY out of the ordinary. Mark hasn't posted on here before that I have a record of. But realize that this sort of traffic IS indeed relevant, since this is one of the major events in Novell, SuSE and OpenSUSE history.
RP
Mark Shuttleworth wrote:
Novell’s decision to go to great lengths to circumvent the patent framework clearly articulated in the GPL has sent shockwaves through the community. If you are an OpenSUSE developer who is concerned about the long term consequences of this pact, you may be interested in some of the events happening next week as part of the Ubuntu Open Week:
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
We are hosting a series of introductory sessions for people who want to join the Ubuntu community - in any capacity, including developers and package maintainers. If you want to find out how Ubuntu works, how to contribute or participate, or how to get specific items addressed, there will be something for you. I’ll also be on IRC on Tuesday 28th to answer any questions you may have of me specifically, such as Luis’ questions about our position on software patents at http://tieguy.org/blog/2006/11/22/and-ubuntus-patent-stand/
There are a couple of sessions that would be particularly interesting for folks familiar with OpenSUSE. The Kubuntu team is hosting some events during the week to look at KDE and Ubuntu and to discuss the roadmap of their project. There are also a few events being hosted by the Ubuntu Desktop team’s, which I think should include some discussion of the ideas that came from the recent Ubuntu Developer Summit in Mountain View. There are a couple of Packaging 101 and Package Maintenance sessions too, specifically for developers.
Ubuntu is structured to empower our community to get things done, and to maximise the opportunity for collaboration between teams that share a common vision (even if it’s not 100% of their vision, such as between the Gnome, KDE and XFCE desktop teams). While we’re always open to new members, we thought it would be a good idea to identify a dedicated week where new members would be the focus for our whole project.
If you have an interest in being part of a vibrant community that cares about keeping free software widely available and protecting the rights of people to get it free of charge, free to modify, free of murky encumbrances and “undisclosed balance sheet liabilities”, then please do join us.
I know that posting this message to an OpenSUSE list will be controversial. I'm greatly respectful of the long tradition of excellence in the SuSE product and community and have no desire to undermine that with this post. That said, I think the position taken by Novell leadership in their contract with Microsoft is hugely disrespectful of the contributions of thousands of GPL programmers and contributors to SuSE, and I know that many are looking for a new place to get involved that is not subject to the same arbitrary executive intervention. Ubuntu is one option, as are Gentoo, Debian and other communities. Please accept this mail in that spirit.
Mark
happen faster in most cases. Developers do need to eat.
Mark believes that operating systems ought to be pretty close to free when it comes to paying for them.
Developers need to eat and all you want is a free ride, am I correct? Developers need to eta so lets screw novell, that dont hire a lot of developers right? Try to make some sense
He stated that his post (which is available elsewhere) would be controversial. Not only does he say that he respects the developers, he
No, translate controversial to 100 % trollish. Saying to ahve respect is different than acting respectfully.
has shown it. From his wording, several Suse developers have contacted him, it appears.
Yeah, how can you know that? Are you himself, the Queen?
He's offering volunteer positions for those who wish to stay as volunteers in a GPL-centric environment, one where it's known the rules don't change.
I'm not that sure. Last time I checked Canonical was a company (surprise, yes a company) that wants to profit, right? That could include the binary blobs by default on it right? Thats is not an angel of the skies bringing heaven to people right?
Some of those people WILL end up with paid positions. Mark has the money to make that happen, and the authority to make it happen as well.
So does Novell
Take a look at Mark's comments in the spirit intended. He has PROVEN he's respectful of the developers. He's got some radically different
The answers out there from the suse community has shown a different thing. And respect is not what he gets from me.
I believe your emails also does not belong to this list. Its more like in the list of mark fan-club. So next one take it to that list, and not here
thanks
Marcio --- druid fucking tired of seeig people thinking that some are holier and more saint than others
On Saturday 25 November 2006 18:42, Renegade Penguin wrote:
Linspire now is outpaced by Freespire. Distrowatch rankings put Freespire on the up & coming and Linspire on the down & out. Linspire as a company and especially as a driving force will not recover, but Freespire has a bigger following.
This comment alone classifies you as a "don't know what I'm talking about, but I'm talking anyway"
Freespire is produced 100% by Linspire
Actually it doesn't, and you're not correct.
Freespire has a significantly larger community base, and has more volunteer input than Linspire (the OS).
Freespire DOES have a larger following than Linspire (the OS). Feel free to flame away.
RP
Anders Johansson wrote:
On Saturday 25 November 2006 18:42, Renegade Penguin wrote:
Linspire now is outpaced by Freespire. Distrowatch rankings put Freespire on the up & coming and Linspire on the down & out. Linspire as a company and especially as a driving force will not recover, but Freespire has a bigger following.
This comment alone classifies you as a "don't know what I'm talking about, but I'm talking anyway"
Freespire is produced 100% by Linspire
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linspire http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freespire
Says it all.
Renegade Penguin wrote:
Actually it doesn't, and you're not correct.
Freespire has a significantly larger community base, and has more volunteer input than Linspire (the OS).
Freespire DOES have a larger following than Linspire (the OS). Feel free to flame away.
RP
Anders Johansson wrote:
On Saturday 25 November 2006 18:42, Renegade Penguin wrote:
Linspire now is outpaced by Freespire. Distrowatch rankings put Freespire on the up & coming and Linspire on the down & out. Linspire as a company and especially as a driving force will not recover, but Freespire has a bigger following.
This comment alone classifies you as a "don't know what I'm talking about, but I'm talking anyway"
Freespire is produced 100% by Linspire
On Saturday 25 November 2006 21:23, Renegade Penguin wrote:
Actually it doesn't, and you're not correct.
Freespire has a significantly larger community base, and has more volunteer input than Linspire (the OS).
Freespire DOES have a larger following than Linspire (the OS). Feel free to flame away.
This isn't a flame, it's a statement of fact. Freespire is to Linspire what opensuse is to Novell, or Fedora is to Red Hat.
Renegade Penguin wrote:
....Blah blah blah blah.... FUD FUD and MORE FUD....
We know Ubuntu, we know its ANTI-community practices... please: this list is to discuss technical stuff and not to receive this FUD. Also please read JP Roseaver's response to Mark's FUD. Thank you very much!
David.
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Adrian Schröter -
Anders Johansson -
Andreas Jaeger -
Clayton -
Darryl Gregorash -
David Canar -
Druid -
Duncan Mac-Vicar Prett -
Hugo Costelha -
Jan Engelhardt -
Janne Karhunen -
jdd -
Jim Flanagan -
John Andersen -
JP Rosevear -
Juergen Weigert -
Kai Ponte -
Mark Shuttleworth -
Nick Zentena -
Pascal Bleser -
Pete Connolly -
Rauch Christian -
Renegade Penguin -
Roger Oberholtzer -
Russell Jones -
Saill White -
Thomas Miller