[opensuse] New desktop

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Kaare Rasmussen

8 Aug 2007 8 Aug '07

07:24

Hi It's time to find me a new machine for home office and related work. But what is the best choice right now? It's a tough one. I need to balance the requirements and make choices like - 32 or 64? - Motherboard - Disks - Graphics adapter - Low consumption vs performance Anyone has any input to this? Any sites that can help me with the configuration, any do-it-yourself sites? Or irc channels where this is discussed? -- Med venlig hilsen Kaare Rasmussen, Jasonic Jasonic Telefon: +45 3816 2582 Nordre Fasanvej 12 2000 Frederiksberg Email: kaare@jasonic.dk -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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Eberhard Roloff

8 Aug 8 Aug

09:03

New subject: [opensuse] Re: New desktop

Kaare Rasmussen wrote:

...

Hi

It's time to find me a new machine for home office and related work. But what is the best choice right now? It's a tough one. I need to balance the requirements and make choices like

- 32 or 64? If you are buying secondhand or very low down, this question could be discussed, otherwise 64bit is what you get.

...

- Motherboard Depends on your needs. I would suggest to buy one that is already on the market for a few monthes and thus, you do not get the exact latest and greatest but rather get information about bugs, performance and Linux compatibility

...

- Disks That depends on your needs in regard to size and sound intensity

...

- Graphics adapter For Linux, I woulkd currently choose Nvidia. The model depends on your needs

...

- Low consumption vs performance Can't comment on this one, my knowledge is not sufficent.

One missing thing in your list imho: How silent will your computer need to be and what will you be able to spend for silence?

...

Anyone has any input to this? Any sites that can help me with the configuration, any do-it-yourself sites?

Or irc channels where this is discussed?

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Kaare Rasmussen

09:14

New subject: [opensuse] Re: New desktop

...

If you are buying secondhand or very low down, this question could be discussed, otherwise 64bit is what you get.

Aren't there still problems with some applications, plugins for Firefox, binary drivers for graphics adapters? :

...

How silent will your computer need to be and what will you be able to spend for silence?

That is very important, agreed. -- Med venlig hilsen Kaare Rasmussen, Jasonic Jasonic Telefon: +45 3816 2582 Nordre Fasanvej 12 2000 Frederiksberg Email: kaare@jasonic.dk -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Clayton

09:25

New subject: [opensuse] Re: New desktop

...

...
If you are buying secondhand or very low down, this question could be discussed, otherwise 64bit is what you get.

Aren't there still problems with some applications, plugins for Firefox, binary drivers for graphics adapters?

It depends on how you define problems. You can run a complete 32bit install of openSUSE on a 64 bit system and it works without any issues. You can also run a complete 64 bit install of openSUSE... but... this may be where you have heard of problems. Certain plugins and media codecs are only available in 32 bit. This means you have to install and run some 32 bit libraries and applications if you are running a 64 bit install. It is possible, and depending on your needs may or may not be a problem for you. There is no harm (and barely any significant performance difference for most general computer use in my experience) to install a 32bit Linux install on a 64 bit computer... and then no issues with 32bit codecs, and certain 32bit binary drivers that and even applications you may want to use. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Casey Stamper

09:31

New subject: [opensuse] Re: New desktop

On 8/8/07, Clayton wrote:

...

...
...
If you are buying secondhand or very low down, this question could be discussed, otherwise 64bit is what you get.

Aren't there still problems with some applications, plugins for Firefox, binary drivers for graphics adapters?

It depends on how you define problems. You can run a complete 32bit install of openSUSE on a 64 bit system and it works without any issues. You can also run a complete 64 bit install of openSUSE... but... this may be where you have heard of problems.

Certain plugins and media codecs are only available in 32 bit. This means you have to install and run some 32 bit libraries and applications if you are running a 64 bit install. It is possible, and depending on your needs may or may not be a problem for you.

There is no harm (and barely any significant performance difference for most general computer use in my experience) to install a 32bit Linux install on a 64 bit computer... and then no issues with 32bit codecs, and certain 32bit binary drivers that and even applications you may want to use.

C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

And in fact, in my experience, just the added pain and hassle of trying to work out how to get the 32-bit plugins to work on a 64-bit install just added to my decision that 32-bit is the way to go. I never noticed any particular application (or even the underlying OS) running any faster as 64-bit (and believe me, I was trying to do so in order to justify the pain of getting everything running correctly). -- Casey Stamper http://www.stampersite.com/wordpress -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Eberhard Roloff

10:27

New subject: [opensuse] Re: New desktop

Kaare Rasmussen wrote:

...

...
If you are buying secondhand or very low down, this question could be discussed, otherwise 64bit is what you get.

Aren't there still problems with some applications, plugins for Firefox, binary drivers for graphics adapters? : Just to clarify:

I understood the OP's question to be about the hardware that he will buy to build his desktop from. In regard to software, imho for a desktop it does not matter. I had good experiences with both Lin 32bit and Lin 64bit on 64bit hardware. However my experience with win 64bit software will make me recommend win32bit software for 64bit hardware. But: I never had the privilege to test win 64bit server software.

...

...
How silent will your computer need to be and what will you be able to spend for silence?

That is very important, agreed.

Imho, for a desktop nowadays, it comes very close to be the most important consideration since it is the machine's noisiness that either supports or distracts my mental attention. kind regards Eberhard

...

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Kaare Rasmussen

10:44

New subject: [opensuse] Re: New desktop

...

Imho, for a desktop nowadays, it comes very close to be the most important consideration since it is the machine's noisiness that either supports or distracts my mental attention.

Doesn't it (mostly) come down to CPU heat production? (And btw. which 64 bit CPU is using least power)? -- Med venlig hilsen Kaare Rasmussen, Jasonic Jasonic Telefon: +45 3816 2582 Nordre Fasanvej 12 2000 Frederiksberg Email: kaare@jasonic.dk -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

James Knott

15:04

New subject: [opensuse] Re: New desktop

Kaare Rasmussen wrote:

...

...
Imho, for a desktop nowadays, it comes very close to be the most important consideration since it is the machine's noisiness that either supports or distracts my mental attention.

Doesn't it (mostly) come down to CPU heat production? (And btw. which 64 bit CPU is using least power)?

The size of the case will affect fan requirements. A small case will require more fans and large fans can be quieter for the same airflow. Also, the choise of disk drives can affect noise levels too. Even case colour can make a difference. A black case will radiate more heat, reducing the load on the fans. Since on some systems fans are controlled by temperature, this will reduce noise. -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Eberhard Roloff

19:12

New subject: [opensuse] Re: New desktop

Kaare Rasmussen wrote:

...

...
Imho, for a desktop nowadays, it comes very close to be the most important consideration since it is the machine's noisiness that either supports or distracts my mental attention.

Doesn't it (mostly) come down to CPU heat production? (And btw. which 64 bit CPU is using least power)?

CPU heat production: This is only part of the problem and generally the easiest one to rectify by buying a good cpu cooler with a very large (and therefore slow and quiet) fan.. The other major noise source is usually your GPU(s) and there is also your powersupply-fan(s) and eventually your harddisk(s) and optical drive(s), if you are unlucky you may also find one case fan or more. CPU power consumption

...

From hardware magazines I think I understand that AMD currently only has a slight power consumption advantage when the machine is idle. At any other machine state, Intel consumes less.

Well, imho it is debatable, whether a desktop does spend by far most of its life idling around. At the same time, AMD currently cannot beat Intel performancewise. Now, as I understand it, within a given CPU brand the lowest model usually consumes the least power and there are "special versions" of cpus around that consume even less. For me privately, I always go for AMD nevertheless since they are cheaper and performance is not an issue for me these days, since all of them (Intel and AMD) have far more horsepower than I can possibly use..

...

From my perspective, A good start for reading on the subject could be this: http://www.silentpcreview.com/

Should you be able to read and understand german, I would definitely recommend www.silenthardware.de kind regards Eberhard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M.

9 Aug 9 Aug

01:14

New subject: [opensuse] Re: New desktop

On Wednesday 08 August 2007 14:12, Eberhard Roloff wrote: ...

...

From my perspective, A good start for reading on the subject could be this: http://www.silentpcreview.com/

Should you be able to read and understand german, I would definitely recommend www.silenthardware.de

Also: http://www.noisemagic.de/ they are quite long on the market and have some basic information in English. -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Eberhard Roloff

8 Aug 8 Aug

19:25

New subject: [opensuse] Re: New desktop

Kaare Rasmussen wrote:

...

...
Imho, for a desktop nowadays, it comes very close to be the most important consideration since it is the machine's noisiness that either supports or distracts my mental attention.

Doesn't it (mostly) come down to CPU heat production? (And btw. which 64 bit CPU is using least power)?

CPU heat production: This is only part of the problem and generally the easiest one to rectify. The other major noise source is usually your GPU(s) and there is also your powersupply-fan(s) and eventually your harddisk(s) and optical drive(s) CPU power consumption

...

From hardware magazines I think I understand that AMD currently only has a slight power consumption advantage when the machine is idle. At any other machine state, Intel consumes less.

Well, imho it is debatable, whether a desktop does spend by far most of its life idling around. At the same time, AMD currently cannot beat Intel performancewise. Now, as I understand it, within a range the lowest model usually consumes the least power and there are "special versions" of cpus around that consume even less. For me privately, I always go for AMD nevertheless since they are cheaper and performance is not an issue for me these days, since all of them have far more horsepower than I can possibly use..

...

From my perspective, A good reading on the subject could be this: http://www.silentpcreview.com/

If you speak german, I would definitely recommend silenthardware.de kind regards Eberhard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Patrick Shanahan

14:17

New subject: [opensuse] Re: New desktop

* Kaare Rasmussen [08-08-07 05:15]:

...

...
If you are buying secondhand or very low down, this question could be discussed, otherwise 64bit is what you get.

Aren't there still problems with some applications, plugins for Firefox, binary drivers for graphics adapters?

Yes, but there are 32-bit versions of FireFox and flash that work fine on the x86_64 systems. I use 32-bit FireFox on my x86_64 system w/o a problem. -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Andy Harrison

15:44

New subject: [opensuse] Re: New desktop

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 8/8/07, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

...
Aren't there still problems with some applications, plugins for Firefox, binary drivers for graphics adapters?

Yes, but there are 32-bit versions of FireFox and flash that work fine on the x86_64 systems. I use 32-bit FireFox on my x86_64 system w/o a problem.

Can you elaborate a little more on this? I just recently installed 10.2 64-bit on a Sun Ultra 40 (dual amd 246 chips). I can install the i586 version of firefox, but it can't get it to talk to the network at all. It's as if I don't even have a plumbed ethernet interface. So firefox will run, but all attempts at connecting to the internet fail. Reinstall the 64-bit version of firefox, and I can browse no problem. - -- Andy Harrison public key: 0x67518262 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: http://firegpg.tuxfamily.org iD8DBQFGueUsNTm8fWdRgmIRAh19AJ4i/6OWc/mlggyXOEqDl0aFxNZtawCg9tX+ JleaqwRGr7sHU4DTa1dB+ag= =P5ii -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Patrick Shanahan

16:17

New subject: [opensuse] Re: New desktop

* Andy Harrison [08-08-07 11:50]: On 8/8/07, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

...
Yes, but there are 32-bit versions of FireFox and flash that work fine on the x86_64 systems. I use 32-bit FireFox on my x86_64 system w/o a problem.

Can you elaborate a little more on this?

I just recently installed 10.2 64-bit on a Sun Ultra 40 (dual amd 246 chips). I can install the i586 version of firefox, but it can't get it to talk to the network at all. It's as if I don't even have a plumbed ethernet interface. So firefox will run, but all attempts at connecting to the internet fail. Reinstall the 64-bit version of firefox, and I can browse no problem.

I have *no* idea.... :^( but the first place I would look is in the is the Preferences -> Advanced -> Network -> Connection all I did was install the 32-bit edition originally from the iso, and updated regularly. I use "smart" and it automagically installs the correct additions/codex. 12:12 wahoo:~ > smart query --installed MozillaFirefox *plug* *flash* MozillaFirefox-2.0.0.6-2.1@i586 java-1_4_2-sun-plugin-1.4.2.15-2.1@i586 java-1_5_0-sun-plugin-1.5.0_12-2.1@i586 mplayerplug-in-3.40-0.pm.1@i586 flash-player-9.0.48.0-3.1@i586 -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Andy Harrison

18:36

New subject: [opensuse] Re: New desktop

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 8/8/07, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

I have *no* idea.... :^( but the first place I would look is in the is the Preferences -> Advanced -> Network -> Connection

all I did was install the 32-bit edition originally from the iso, and updated regularly. I use "smart" and it automagically installs the correct additions/codex.

12:12 wahoo:~ > smart query --installed MozillaFirefox *plug* *flash* MozillaFirefox-2.0.0.6-2.1@i586 java-1_4_2-sun-plugin-1.4.2.15-2.1@i586 java-1_5_0-sun-plugin-1.5.0_12-2.1@i586 mplayerplug-in-3.40-0.pm.1@i586 flash-player-9.0.48.0-3.1@i586

I tried the i586 MozillaFirefox package again, no luck. I tried using tcpdump while using it and it doesn't even make a single attempt at a network connection. What other packages do you have are 32-bit? Do I have to install the 32-bit version of all of these? # smart query --installed '*ozilla*' MozillaFirefox-2.0.0.6-2.1@x86_64 MozillaFirefox-debuginfo-2.0.0.6-2.1@x86_64 MozillaFirefox-translations-2.0.0.6-2.1@x86_64 mozilla-nspr-4.6.7-2.1@x86_64 mozilla-nspr-32bit-4.6.3-10@x86_64 mozilla-nspr-devel-4.6.7-2.1@x86_64 mozilla-nss-3.11.7-7.1@x86_64 mozilla-nss-32bit-3.11.3-10@x86_64 mozilla-nss-devel-3.11.7-7.1@x86_64 mozilla-xulrunner181-1.8.0.99-38@x86_64 - -- Andy Harrison public key: 0x67518262 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: http://firegpg.tuxfamily.org iD8DBQFGug1lNTm8fWdRgmIRAkNGAKD10rH7P6YKjg7o1s/rt8m3R71QKACfaPGH m+6phpVEs5NKSefM0qFKnOk= =D+g8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

James Knott

17:12

New subject: [opensuse] Re: New desktop

Andy Harrison wrote:

...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

On 8/8/07, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...
...
Aren't there still problems with some applications, plugins for Firefox, binary drivers for graphics adapters?

Yes, but there are 32-bit versions of FireFox and flash that work fine on the x86_64 systems. I use 32-bit FireFox on my x86_64 system w/o a problem.

Can you elaborate a little more on this?

I just recently installed 10.2 64-bit on a Sun Ultra 40 (dual amd 246 chips). I can install the i586 version of firefox, but it can't get it to talk to the network at all. It's as if I don't even have a plumbed ethernet interface. So firefox will run, but all attempts at connecting to the internet fail. Reinstall the 64-bit version of firefox, and I can browse no problem.

I have no such problem with the 32 bit versions of Firefox and Seamonkey on my 64 bit system. -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Doug McGarrett

23:16

New subject: [opensuse] Re: New desktop

On Wednesday 08 August 2007 05:03, Eberhard Roloff wrote:

...

Kaare Rasmussen wrote:

...
Hi

...

One missing thing in your list imho: How silent will your computer need to be and what will you be able to spend for silence?

...
Anyone has any input to this? Any sites that can help me with the configuration, any do-it-yourself sites?

As regards silence, the old IBM keyboards are absolutely the most wonderful and loud keyboards in existance. Some electronics/computer/ham-radio fleamarkets have these. If noise is no object, get one! They seem to last forever. No Windows keys, but you probably wouldn't care. --doug, wa2say -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

James Knott

9 Aug 9 Aug

00:47

New subject: [opensuse] Re: New desktop

Doug McGarrett wrote:

...

On Wednesday 08 August 2007 05:03, Eberhard Roloff wrote:

...
Kaare Rasmussen wrote:

...
Hi

...
One missing thing in your list imho: How silent will your computer need to be and what will you be able to spend for silence?

...
Anyone has any input to this? Any sites that can help me with the configuration, any do-it-yourself sites?

As regards silence, the old IBM keyboards are absolutely the most wonderful and loud keyboards in existance. Some electronics/computer/ham-radio fleamarkets have these. If noise is no object, get one! They seem to last forever. No Windows keys, but you probably wouldn't care.

--doug, wa2say

I bought some a few years ago, for $5 each. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Randall R Schulz

01:19

New subject: [opensuse] Re: New desktop

On Wednesday 08 August 2007 17:47, James Knott wrote:

...

...

I bought some a few years ago, for $5 each.

Oh, please tell me where! There hasn't been a good keyboard since, as far as I can recall. Maybe I should spend more time at Weird Stuff (http://www.weirdstuff.com/)... RRS -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Patrick Shanahan

01:23

New subject: [opensuse] keyboards, was: New desktop

* Randall R Schulz [08-08-07 21:19]:

...

On Wednesday 08 August 2007 17:47, James Knott wrote:

...
I bought some a few years ago, for $5 each.

Oh, please tell me where! There hasn't been a good keyboard since, as far as I can recall.

Maybe I should spend more time at Weird Stuff (http://www.weirdstuff.com/)...

doesn't compare to my Gateway 2000 AnyKey 1990c which is still in service and generating these notes :^) -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Tony Alfrey

01:37

New subject: [opensuse] keyboards, was: New desktop

Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* Randall R Schulz [08-08-07 21:19]:

...
On Wednesday 08 August 2007 17:47, James Knott wrote:

...
I bought some a few years ago, for $5 each. Oh, please tell me where! There hasn't been a good keyboard since, as far as I can recall.

Maybe I should spend more time at Weird Stuff (http://www.weirdstuff.com/)...

doesn't compare to my Gateway 2000 AnyKey 1990c which is still in service and generating these notes :^)

Keytronics are pretty good. -- Tony Alfrey tonyalfrey@earthlink.net "I'd Rather Be Sailing" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

James Knott

02:08

New subject: [opensuse] keyboards, was: New desktop

Tony Alfrey wrote:

...

Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...
* Randall R Schulz [08-08-07 21:19]:

...
On Wednesday 08 August 2007 17:47, James Knott wrote:

...
I bought some a few years ago, for $5 each. Oh, please tell me where! There hasn't been a good keyboard since, as far as I can recall.

Maybe I should spend more time at Weird Stuff (http://www.weirdstuff.com/)...

doesn't compare to my Gateway 2000 AnyKey 1990c which is still in service and generating these notes :^)

Keytronics are pretty good.

Where's Northgate, now that we need them? Incidentally, many years ago, I bought a huge Cherry keyboard, without any encoder logic. I designed & built my own encoder and used that keyboard with my IMSAI 8080. -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Robert Smits

10 Aug 10 Aug

01:12

New subject: [opensuse] keyboards, was: New desktop

On Wednesday 08 August 2007 19:08, James Knott wrote:

...

Incidentally, many years ago, I bought a huge Cherry keyboard, without any encoder logic. I designed & built my own encoder and used that keyboard with my IMSAI 8080.

Had one of those. Mine came with the optional 4K memory, and I entered programs in with toggle switches I Byte at a time. In 1976 I got cassete tape drives, and then 8 inch floppy drives (1.2 MB each). Don't miss CP/M all that much, though. Bob Smits bob@rsmits.ca -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

James Knott

01:52

New subject: [opensuse] keyboards, was: New desktop

Robert Smits wrote:

...

On Wednesday 08 August 2007 19:08, James Knott wrote:

...
Incidentally, many years ago, I bought a huge Cherry keyboard, without any encoder logic. I designed & built my own encoder and used that keyboard with my IMSAI 8080.

Had one of those. Mine came with the optional 4K memory, and I entered programs in with toggle switches I Byte at a time. In 1976 I got cassete tape drives, and then 8 inch floppy drives (1.2 MB each). Don't miss CP/M all that much, though.

Mine didn't come with any memory. I bought a 16K board, loaded with 4K from another vendor. My system eventually reached 20K. I also used cassettes with it, but never graduated to floppies. I eventually connected it to my ham radio gear, a modem and also a Model 35 ASR Teletype. I designed and built an 8 port serial I/O card for it (only installed 4 UARTs) and in the process found a bug in the 8250A UART chip that National Semiconductor didn't know about. I also wrote a lot of my own software, though I bought an editor, monitor, assembler and BASIC (Scelbal) from Scelbi. I did a lot of learning with that box. Had a lot of fun with it too. It's hard to believe I bought it almost 31 years ago! -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Robert Smits

02:31

New subject: [opensuse] keyboards, was: New desktop

On Thursday 09 August 2007 18:52, James Knott wrote:

...

Robert Smits wrote:

...
On Wednesday 08 August 2007 19:08, James Knott wrote:

...
Incidentally, many years ago, I bought a huge Cherry keyboard, without any encoder logic. I designed & built my own encoder and used that keyboard with my IMSAI 8080.

Had one of those. Mine came with the optional 4K memory, and I entered programs in with toggle switches I Byte at a time. In 1976 I got cassete tape drives, and then 8 inch floppy drives (1.2 MB each). Don't miss CP/M all that much, though.

Mine didn't come with any memory. I bought a 16K board, loaded with 4K from another vendor. My system eventually reached 20K. I also used cassettes with it, but never graduated to floppies. I eventually connected it to my ham radio gear, a modem and also a Model 35 ASR Teletype. I designed and built an 8 port serial I/O card for it (only installed 4 UARTs) and in the process found a bug in the 8250A UART chip that National Semiconductor didn't know about. I also wrote a lot of my own software, though I bought an editor, monitor, assembler and BASIC (Scelbal) from Scelbi. I did a lot of learning with that box. Had a lot of fun with it too. It's hard to believe I bought it almost 31 years ago!

I used mine for connecting to usenet via ubc, and then as my packet radio terminal when we used V3 protocol before AX25. I'm VE7HS. -- Bob Smits bob@rsmits.ca -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

James Knott

11:24

New subject: [opensuse] keyboards, was: New desktop

Robert Smits wrote:

...

On Thursday 09 August 2007 18:52, James Knott wrote:

...
Robert Smits wrote:

...
On Wednesday 08 August 2007 19:08, James Knott wrote:

...
Incidentally, many years ago, I bought a huge Cherry keyboard, without any encoder logic. I designed & built my own encoder and used that keyboard with my IMSAI 8080.

Had one of those. Mine came with the optional 4K memory, and I entered programs in with toggle switches I Byte at a time. In 1976 I got cassete tape drives, and then 8 inch floppy drives (1.2 MB each). Don't miss CP/M all that much, though.

Mine didn't come with any memory. I bought a 16K board, loaded with 4K from another vendor. My system eventually reached 20K. I also used cassettes with it, but never graduated to floppies. I eventually connected it to my ham radio gear, a modem and also a Model 35 ASR Teletype. I designed and built an 8 port serial I/O card for it (only installed 4 UARTs) and in the process found a bug in the 8250A UART chip that National Semiconductor didn't know about. I also wrote a lot of my own software, though I bought an editor, monitor, assembler and BASIC (Scelbal) from Scelbi. I did a lot of learning with that box. Had a lot of fun with it too. It's hard to believe I bought it almost 31 years ago!

I used mine for connecting to usenet via ubc, and then as my packet radio terminal when we used V3 protocol before AX25. I'm VE7HS.

I got into packet radio with an XT clone and a Heathkit HK-232, the kit version of the AEA PK-232. I'm VE3ZU. -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Doug McGarrett

20:14

New subject: [opensuse] keyboards, was: New desktop

On Thursday 09 August 2007 21:52, James Knott wrote:

...

Robert Smits wrote:

...
On Wednesday 08 August 2007 19:08, James Knott wrote:

...
Incidentally, many years ago, I bought a huge Cherry keyboard, without any encoder logic. I designed & built my own encoder and used that keyboard with my IMSAI 8080.

/snip/

As long as we're reminiscing here, I must jump in with this: In 1981 I bought the Big Board CPM computer, which came as a kit of components, with no peripherals. I found a 10" monitor and a keyboard from someplace that had a shift key, but only produced upper-case keycodes. It must have been used with a teletype machine or something similar. Not being a programmer, certainly not in assembler, I built (with some trial and error, since I'm also not a digital but an RF engineer) a converter out of TTL logic to produce both upper and lower case characters under control of the shift key. The Big Board would take parallel keyboard input, as well as serial, so this was not too difficult to do. (Genuine serial k/b's usually only came as part of a terminal, which was pretty darned expensive back in the day.) In another aside, I found, with the help of another engineer who was experienced in video, that the BB was deficient in video bandwidth, so I figured out how to cure that, and wrote it up for the Micro-Cornucopia. They sent me a Tee-shirt, which I still have, marked "AUTHOR". --doug -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

James Knott

20:23

New subject: [opensuse] keyboards, was: New desktop

Doug McGarrett wrote:

...

On Thursday 09 August 2007 21:52, James Knott wrote:

...
Robert Smits wrote:

...
On Wednesday 08 August 2007 19:08, James Knott wrote:

...
Incidentally, many years ago, I bought a huge Cherry keyboard, without any encoder logic. I designed & built my own encoder and used that keyboard with my IMSAI 8080.

/snip/

As long as we're reminiscing here, I must jump in with this: In 1981 I bought the Big Board CPM computer, which came as a kit of components, with no peripherals. I found a 10" monitor and a keyboard from someplace that had a shift key, but only produced upper-case keycodes. It must have been used with a teletype machine or something similar. Not being a programmer, certainly not in assembler, I built (with some trial and error, since I'm also not a digital but an RF engineer) a converter out of TTL logic to produce both upper and lower case characters under control of the shift key. The Big Board would take parallel keyboard input, as well as serial, so this was not too difficult to do. (Genuine serial k/b's usually only came as part of a terminal, which was pretty darned expensive back in the day.)

In another aside, I found, with the help of another engineer who was experienced in video, that the BB was deficient in video bandwidth, so I figured out how to cure that, and wrote it up for the Micro-Cornucopia. They sent me a Tee-shirt, which I still have, marked "AUTHOR".

--doug

That Cherry keyboard was unique. The standard keyboard keys had white key tops and all the other keys, function, number pad etc., had gray tops. There were almost as many gray as white keys. That keyboard was wired as two separate keyboards, each with it's own scanning matrix, in one physical package. The white keys were one keyboard and the gray keys the other. My encoder combined the two into one big keyboard, with the 8th bit used to signify which set of keys was in use. I used a 2716 EPROM to convert the scan codes to ASCII and I included auto repeat etc. It worked well. Some time after that, I was taking a digital logics course at Ryerson, in Toronto. One of the projects was to build a hex keyboard. I just showed the instructor what I had designed & built and that was good enough to get full marks for the project. ;-) BTW, the only reason I took that course, was because it was a compulsory prerequisite for some other courses I wanted to take. There wasn't much I actually learned in it, though it was fun to play with the Commodore CBM we used to connect to some projects. I also became an "assistant instructor", helping the other students with their projects. -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Clayton

9 Aug 9 Aug

05:14

New subject: [opensuse] Re: New desktop

...

As regards silence, the old IBM keyboards are absolutely the most wonderful and loud keyboards in existance. Some electronics/computer/ham-radio fleamarkets have these. If noise is no object, get one! They seem to last forever. No Windows keys, but you probably wouldn't care.

I swear by my Cherry Linux Keyboard :-) http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/cymotion-line/cymotion-line_master_linux.h... The keys think and rattle in a nice traditional way. Ha. And... no Windows key.. they've replaced it with a nice penguin key. C -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Eberhard Roloff

07:48

New subject: [opensuse] Re: New desktop

Doug McGarrett wrote:

...

On Wednesday 08 August 2007 05:03, Eberhard Roloff wrote:

...
Kaare Rasmussen wrote:

...
Hi

...
One missing thing in your list imho: How silent will your computer need to be and what will you be able to spend for silence?

...
Anyone has any input to this? Any sites that can help me with the configuration, any do-it-yourself sites?

As regards silence, the old IBM keyboards are absolutely the most wonderful and loud keyboards in existance. Some electronics/computer/ham-radio fleamarkets have these. If noise is no object, get one! They seem to last forever. No Windows keys, but you probably wouldn't care.

--doug, wa2say

Fully agreed!!!! Although I confess being a silent PC geek and there is hardly anything that nerves me more than noisy PCs that I must work with for hours , this does not apply to keyboards. This is typed on a Model M style keyboard with 122 keys that I got from ebay for 10€. Looks like this http://www.shoppalstores.com/ibmmodelm/image//2002021-004.jpg Unfortunately not all keys work with a PC, but all I need and much more is there. This one is also suitable for self-defence and in case you need a hammer but do not one, you do not need to buy one. They are great, they are even greater when your PC is silent and they are greatest when there is no one else in the room who is constantly complaining about your IBM klicky-keyboard noise. ;-) Lately I found a solution to the latter problem and bought my wife another Model M. Now we are both on Klickey-Keyboard, she never wants to use anything else keyboardwise and most important, we are in love, once again. ;-)) regards Eberhard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Doug McGarrett

10 Aug 10 Aug

00:58

New subject: [opensuse] Re: New desktop

On Thursday 09 August 2007 03:48, Eberhard Roloff wrote:

...

Doug McGarrett wrote:

...
On Wednesday 08 August 2007 05:03, Eberhard Roloff wrote:

...
Kaare Rasmussen wrote:

...
Hi

One missing thing in your list imho: How silent will your computer need to be and what will you be able to spend for silence?

...
Anyone has any input to this? Any sites that can help me with the configuration, any do-it-yourself sites?

As regards silence, the old IBM keyboards are absolutely the most wonderful and loud keyboards in existance. Some electronics/computer/ham-radio fleamarkets have these. If noise is no object, get one! They seem to last forever. No Windows keys, but you probably wouldn't care.

--doug, wa2say

Fully agreed!!!! Although I confess being a silent PC geek and there is hardly anything that nerves me more than noisy PCs that I must work with for hours , this does not apply to keyboards.

This is typed on a Model M style keyboard with 122 keys that I got from ebay for 10â¬. Looks like this http://www.shoppalstores.com/ibmmodelm/image//2002021-004.jpg

The pictured keyboard is apparently a foreign version. I'm using 2 model Ms on my computers, and all the keys work with Linux or Windows, except probably the Scroll Lock, Print Screen, and Pause keys that I've never seen work on anything. My American model M's do not have any keys left of the Tab, Caps- Lock, Shift, Ctrl. And the bottom left alpha key is Z. --doug, wa2say

...

Unfortunately not all keys work with a PC, but all I need and much more is there. This one is also suitable for self-defence and in case you need a hammer but do not one, you do not need to buy one.

They are great, they are even greater when your PC is silent and they are greatest when there is no one else in the room who is constantly complaining about your IBM klicky-keyboard noise. ;-)

Lately I found a solution to the latter problem and bought my wife another Model M. Now we are both on Klickey-Keyboard, she never wants to use anything else keyboardwise and most important, we are in love, once again. ;-))

regards Eberhard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Eberhard Roloff

06:46

New subject: [opensuse] Re: New desktop

Doug McGarrett wrote:

...

...
Fully agreed!!!! Although I confess being a silent PC geek and there is hardly anything that nerves me more than noisy PCs that I must work with for hours , this does not apply to keyboards.

This is typed on a Model M style keyboard with 122 keys that I got from ebay for 10â‚¬. Looks like this http://www.shoppalstores.com/ibmmodelm/image//2002021-004.jpg

The pictured keyboard is apparently a foreign version. I'm using 2 model Ms on my computers, and all the keys work with Linux or Windows, except probably the Scroll Lock, Print Screen, and Pause keys that I've never seen work on anything. My American model M's do not have any keys left of the Tab, Caps- Lock, Shift, Ctrl. And the bottom left alpha key is Z.

Well, with Model M interchangeable keycaps foreign versions do not matter so much, you can always replace the keycaps with what is correct for your language. Mine is actually a 122 Keys Model (much larger and heavier) with 24 Functionkeys that was meant to be used with an AS/400 Console. And this is the reason, not all Keys generate a keycode on a PC which you can then (re)map according to your needs. Eberhard

...

--doug, wa2say

...
Unfortunately not all keys work with a PC, but all I need and much more is there. This one is also suitable for self-defence and in case you need a hammer but do not one, you do not need to buy one.

They are great, they are even greater when your PC is silent and they are greatest when there is no one else in the room who is constantly complaining about your IBM klicky-keyboard noise. ;-)

Lately I found a solution to the latter problem and bought my wife another Model M. Now we are both on Klickey-Keyboard, she never wants to use anything else keyboardwise and most important, we are in love, once again. ;-))

regards Eberhard

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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participants (12)

Andy Harrison
Casey Stamper
Clayton
Doug McGarrett
Eberhard Roloff
James Knott
Kaare Rasmussen
Patrick Shanahan
Rajko M.
Randall R Schulz
Robert Smits
Tony Alfrey