RE: [SuSE Linux] LSB project: succes or failure?
On Wed, 03 Feb 1999 Chris Martin wrote:
I encourage you to repost this under a different heading. I have to admit, I almost didn't read it. But, I am glad I did. It is good to hear intelligent questions/opinions, etc. I am curious whether you think the rather dim future you paint (if status quo remains status quo) means that we should all just switch to RedHat right now? (despite knowing SuSE is nicer)
Thanks for you reaction but I don't think I will repost under a different heading. There have only been 2 reactions from the hundreds(thousands?) of list followers so I do not think they find the subject very interesting. Personally I don't know what to think. I like SuSE, I like RedHat and next month I will also be trying out Debian. I don't think I am willing, at this time, to make any definite choice. They all have nice and irritating features. And I don't think there is any reason, at the moment, to switch from one to the other (except 'personal compatibility and taste' reasons). But it is quite possible that if agreements on a Linux standard base are not reached and implemented we might find that the minor discrepencies between the distributions which occasionaly cause some irritation when switching between distributions might become gradually less minor. I have no idea what the consequences will be. But such a situation might necessitate a definite choice. You might like to look at the pronouncements of RedHat's Bob Young, see: <A HREF="http://www.linuxworld.com/linuxworld/lw-1999-01/lw-01-thesource.html"><A HREF="http://www.linuxworld.com/linuxworld/lw-1999-01/lw-01-thesource.html</A">http://www.linuxworld.com/linuxworld/lw-1999-01/lw-01-thesource.html</A</A>>, on 'balkanization' of Linux. I think they are woolly and not very convincing because he only adresses the 'larger' picture and not the nitty gritty of existing differences. See also a differing view by Ian Nandhra: <A HREF="http://www.linuxworld.com/linuxworld/lw-1998-10/lw-10-thesource2.html"><A HREF="http://www.linuxworld.com/linuxworld/lw-1998-10/lw-10-thesource2.html</A">http://www.linuxworld.com/linuxworld/lw-1998-10/lw-10-thesource2.html</A</A>>, but he stresses the libc-glibc difference too much, the one difference that in the short run will disappear (or become irrelevant). Alexander ------------------------------------- Alexander Volovics Dept of Methodology & Statistics Maastricht University, Maastricht, NL ------------------------------------- - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e Check out the SuSE-FAQ at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A">http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A</A>> and the archiv at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A">http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A</A>>
Personally I don't know what to think. I like SuSE, I like RedHat and next month I will also be trying out Debian. I don't think I am willing, at this time, to make any definite choice. They all have nice and irritating features. And I don't think there is any reason, at the moment, to switch from one to the other (except 'personal compatibility and taste' reasons).
I agree. I have mixed reactions to the 'competitive' attitude users have about the dists. I think most of the time, people prefer dists for personal reasons of taste, as opposed to reasons that are primarily of a logistic nature. I think some of this creates a hostile and divisive climate. I think S.u.S.E., RedHat ( especially now ), Debian, are all good distributions. The main thing that is needed is more common ground between distributions of Linux so as to merge with that larger world that has no vested interest in seeing Linux succeed, so that the growth can continue in a positive direction. I think, at the end of this we could have Linuxes with distinct personalities and flavours that retain their technical 'personality' while at the same time acknowledging those things that need to happen across the board to promote universal acceptance of Linux as a platform solution for a variety of services. I'll love it when the 'hacker' and 'wild man' image that still infests ( bad choice of words, sorry ) Linux--is traded in for one of even more increasing acceptance and respectability, not just for 'special interests' but for potentially everyone that wants to benefit from the technical superiorty (IMHO ) of inexpensive Unices for big companies and even single user workstations. -M - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e Check out the SuSE-FAQ at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A">http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A</A>> and the archiv at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A">http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A</A>>
I agree with pretty much everything said. But, let me say that the average Joe computer user doesn't like this sorta talk. By the very fact that we are all reading a mailing list, we are already much different than the vast majority of computer users, and potential Linux users, out there. The average Joe hears "cheap/free" and "powerful" in conjuncton with Linux. From this, they don't want to make any choices of flavor, they just want Linux installed as easily and running as transparently (up to some point) as possible. So, while we all sit back and agree about things in theory, and about how this or that will or will not affect various distbns, I think that things will not go this way. The average Joe (and big $$) drives the market (hence, microslop). So, this brings us back to the fact that like it or not, RedHat and their buddies are on a track wholly different than the others; one in which they have paid some attention to detail, at least as regards image and the like and being involved with the "right" people. I know this does not a good product make. . .but good products aren't what people spend millions on every year (again., witness microslop). But hey, I am still rooting for Linux generally, and especially for SuSE. But SuSE can't even keep a website maintained and up to date (6.0?), so how can they possibly keep the uneducated masses even vaguely happy. . . .I fear they can't. Just wait until RH spends a little time and well funded effort on German distbns. . . .I think SuSE's claim to German fame will quickly fall by the wayside too. . . .$$$ knows no borders. . . ..boo hoo. On 06-Feb-99 Michael Johnson wrote:
Personally I don't know what to think. I like SuSE, I like RedHat and next month I will also be trying out Debian. I don't think I am willing, at this time, to make any definite choice. They all have nice and irritating features. And I don't think there is any reason, at the moment, to switch from one to the other (except 'personal compatibility and taste' reasons).
I agree. I have mixed reactions to the 'competitive' attitude users have about the dists. I think most of the time, people prefer dists for personal reasons of taste, as opposed to reasons that are primarily of a logistic nature. I think some of this creates a hostile and divisive climate. I think S.u.S.E., RedHat ( especially now ), Debian, are all good distributions. The main thing that is needed is more common ground between distributions of Linux so as to merge with that larger world that has no vested interest in seeing Linux succeed, so that the growth can continue in a positive direction. I think, at the end of this we could have Linuxes with distinct personalities and flavours that retain their technical 'personality' while at the same time acknowledging those things that need to happen across the board to promote universal acceptance of Linux as a platform solution for a variety of services. I'll love it when the 'hacker' and 'wild man' image that still infests ( bad choice of words, sorry ) Linux--is traded in for one of even more increasing acceptance and respectability, not just for 'special interests' but for potentially everyone that wants to benefit from the technical superiorty (IMHO ) of inexpensive Unices for big companies and even single user workstations. -M
------------------------------------------ E-Mail: Chris Martin <camst65@pitt.edu> Date: 06-Feb-99 Time: 09:24:54 ** Powered by SuSE Linux. You want it?! ** <A HREF="http://www.suse.com"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com</A">http://www.suse.com</A</A>> | <A HREF="http://www.linux.org"><A HREF="http://www.linux.org</A">http://www.linux.org</A</A>> ------------------------------------------ - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e Check out the SuSE-FAQ at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A">http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A</A>> and the archiv at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A">http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A</A>>
Chris Martin wrote:
I agree with pretty much everything said. But, let me say that the average Joe computer user doesn't like this sorta talk. By the very fact that we are all reading a mailing list, we are already much different than the vast majority of computer users, and potential Linux users, out there. The average Joe hears "cheap/free" and "powerful" in conjuncton with Linux. From this, they don't want to make any choices of flavor, they just want Linux installed as easily and running as transparently (up to some point) as possible. So, while we all sit back and agree about things in theory, and about how this or that will or will not affect various distbns, I think that things will not go this way. The average Joe (and big $$) drives the market (hence, microslop). So, this brings us back to the fact that like it or not, RedHat and their buddies are on a track wholly different than the others; one in which they have paid some attention to detail, at least as regards image and the like and being involved with the "right" people. I know this does not a good product make. . .but good products aren't what people spend millions on every year (again., witness microslop). But hey, I am still rooting for Linux generally, and especially for SuSE. But SuSE can't even keep a website maintained and up to date (6.0?), so how can they possibly keep the uneducated masses even vaguely happy. . . .I fear they can't. Just wait until RH spends a little time and well funded effort on German distbns. . . .I think SuSE's claim to German fame will quickly fall by the wayside too. . . .$$$ knows no borders. . . ..boo hoo.
Well said - I've been preaching that for months, but much less eloquently. George - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e Check out the SuSE-FAQ at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A">http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A</A>> and the archiv at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A">http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A</A>>
I agree here somewhat. Redhat is much better at the marketing. Just look in ony barnes and noble or compuse. You will find there box , as well as there utilities/add in box on the shelf. That red hat allways jumps out at you. I am new to linux , What realy swayed me to Suse was that they were the only one to offer telephone support. They need some work here as well. When I called them regarding getting the modem and internet working with only text mode (so I could download the xfree86 3.3.3) all I got was " that a lot of work" , "read the book" . However I felt that the unsaid message was your on your own. As I said , I am new to this , and now realize that next to hardware configuration , that modem/Internet connection is the bigest problem. On all other occasions , suse suport has been on the money. This list I have found to be even more valuable that the suse suport. It seams that the folks here are working on the cuting edge , and are much more willing to tackel obscure/unpopular hardware and technical issues. It obviose that they are much more technical , and have realy delved into the os ect... I would gladly pay another $50.00 for rock solid suport , even more , if it saves me time , which in the end saves money. They need more fit and polish , and better marketing, The only retial place I could find that had suse was Borders. Several on the shelf , beside caldera , redhat and some other stuff ( debian I think). What would realy help , is a rock solid FAQ for hardware,os , and other issues, DONE EXCLUSIVELY FOR SUSE. This will save time , and help with the questions that keep comeing up every few weeks ect... My .02 cents worth. Boy am I gald I picked SUSE. At 06:27 AM 2/6/1999 -1000, George Toft wrote:
Chris Martin wrote:
I agree with pretty much everything said. But, let me say that the
average Joe
computer user doesn't like this sorta talk. By the very fact that we are all reading a mailing list, we are already much different than the vast majority of computer users, and potential Linux users, out there. The average Joe hears "cheap/free" and "powerful" in conjuncton with Linux. From this, they don't want to make any choices of flavor, they just want Linux installed as easily and running as transparently (up to some point) as possible. So, while we all sit back and agree about things in theory, and about how this or that will or will not affect various distbns, I think that things will not go this way. The average Joe (and big $$) drives the market (hence, microslop). So, this brings us back to the fact that like it or not, RedHat and their buddies are on a track wholly different than the others; one in which they have paid some attention to detail, at least as regards image and the like and being involved with the "right" people. I know this does not a good product make. . .but good products aren't what people spend millions on every year (again., witness microslop). But hey, I am still rooting for Linux generally, and especially for SuSE. But SuSE can't even keep a website maintained and up to date (6.0?), so how can they possibly keep the uneducated masses even vaguely happy. . . .I fear they can't. Just wait until RH spends a little time and well funded effort on German distbns. . . .I think SuSE's claim to German fame will quickly fall by the wayside too. . . .$$$ knows no borders. . . ..boo hoo.
Well said - I've been preaching that for months, but much less eloquently.
George - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e Check out the SuSE-FAQ at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A">http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A</A>> and the archiv at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A">http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A</A>>
- To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e Check out the SuSE-FAQ at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A">http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A</A>> and the archiv at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A">http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A</A>>
Chris Martin wrote:
funded effort on German distbns. . . .I think SuSE's claim to German fame will quickly fall by the wayside too. . . .$$$ knows no borders. . . ..boo hoo.
Well said - I've been preaching that for months, but much less eloquently.
George Yeh, except I've never been to Germany, and their advertising and market control may look much different there than it does here from an American/Canadian perspective. I suspect that in Germany S.u.S.E. _is_ RedHat. I think we NAers are biased by our perspective and tend to _ASSUME_ that because the marketting here for S.u.S.E. seems less strong
On Sat, 6 Feb 1999, George Toft wrote: than RedHat that it is the same type of image in Europe and I think, at least in my case, that _is_ an assumption, nothing more. I do think the tactics in NA will have to change--- I think RedHat has exemplary marketting. Just the freshmeat/slashdot association guarantees for most people at least one 'hint' to use RedHat everyday. And of course we have the Gnome project. Just the fact that many of these pages have RedHat logos on them, as opposed to BSD, Caldera, Debian, or S.u.S.E. logos is an 'influence'. I mean RedHat is an everyday word in the Linux community because they are so closely aligned with things that are of interest on a DAILY basis to Linux users. S.u.S.E. and Caldera do stuff of great importance as well, but you just don't have occurance to hear and think about things like X-Servers etc on a daily basis unless you are involved in development that relates to that. And if you look at things like LJ, there seems to be one mention of S.u.S.E. for every 5 for RedHat. There are lots of 'psychological' factors, I feel, like the simplicity of the logo and the constant use of the color red, the doggone sheer volume of REPETITION of such a simple name as 'RedHat' that makes it easier to remember than most company names, because it _is_ simple and we here it more often, that also impacts the consumer... anyway,as you can see,.. I'm rambling. It's obviously time for my morning coffee before I bore you further...:-) -M - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e Check out the SuSE-FAQ at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A">http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A</A>> and the archiv at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A">http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A</A>>
On 06-Feb-99 Chris Martin wrote:
[snip] The average Joe hears "cheap/free" and "powerful" in conjuncton with Linux. From this, they don't want to make any choices of flavor, they just want Linux installed as easily and running as transparently (up to some point) as possible. [snip] The average Joe (and big $$) drives the market (hence, microslop). So, this brings us back to the fact that like it or not, RedHat and their buddies are on a track wholly different than the others; one in which they have paid some attention to detail, at least as regards image and the like and being involved with the "right" people. I know this does not a good product make ... but good products aren't what people spend millions on every year (again, witness microslop). [snip] Just wait until RH spends a little time and well funded effort on German distbns. . . .I think SuSE's claim to German fame will quickly fall by the wayside too. . . .$$$ knows no borders. . . ..boo hoo.
Chris's brutal realism rings plausible. I'm not convinced that the future will be quite so deterministic, but that's where it points. If it goes that way before LSB or the like is ratified between the major distributors, then of course RH will be the standard where LSB-type issues are concerned. And, if that happens, then the choice between distributions (assumed to conform to the RH base standard) will turn on the suitability for you of what comes on top of the standard base system. There are many many possible ways a distribution can try to stand out as different (and more suitable for whatever) from others. A generic dimension is soundness, consistency and reliability. Regardless of basic structure, RH in the past has skidded on the ice while trying to turn corners too fast. SuSE, so far, seems to have avoided this trap (though I'm not sure about 5.3 and my jury is still hearing evidence on 6.0). Also, SuSE has made a name for including an exceptional variety of applications, all compiled consistently with the distribution. Another way SuSE would be very well placed to stand out is in international support. Here in Europe we *know* about having xenophone neighbours; our exiled friends across the Atlantic seem to have a notion about non-English languages rather like our notion of the far side of the moon: we know it's there, but we don't really know what it's like (witness the WordPerfect-8/7/6 fiasco with non-English characters). Again, a distribution may pay special attention to specific application areas. SuSE, for instance, was a pioneer in getting office and database suites onto the distribution CD. A Europe-based distribution can exploit local fraternities: there are a lot of good European software houses devloping important applications; a "special relationship" with these would again be an advantage. Other areas to watch out for as Linux catches the world's attention are *real* DTP, graphics (including scanning), and CAD. And, above all, don't forget good documentation. SuSE has not done so well at this as it not only should, but could have done. Internationalisation applies to this area too. All the above would remain true if RH failed to become the "de facto" standard and LSB was ratified -- with even more force, in fact, because then *by*definition* there would be no basic difference between standard Linus distributions, and things like the above would be the *only* ways one distribution could expect to stand out. And I personally think that would be a better day for the world in general. A cessation of competition on "my basic Linux is better than yours: filesystem/install/sysadmin/upgrade/libs etc" and proper attention to providing useful functionality on top of a base system which *simply*works*, and is straightforward to use, is the way to go. Best wishes to all, Ted. -------------------------------------------------------------------- E-Mail: (Ted Harding) <Ted.Harding@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> Date: 06-Feb-99 Time: 16:44:56 ------------------------------ XFMail ------------------------------ - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e Check out the SuSE-FAQ at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A">http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A</A>> and the archiv at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A">http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A</A>>
At 04:4
If it goes that way before LSB or the like is ratified between the major distributors, then of course RH will be the standard where LSB-type issues are concerned. And, if that happens, then the choice between distributions (assumed to conform to the RH base standard) will turn on the suitability for you of what comes on top of the standard base system. There are many many possible ways a distribution can try to stand out as different (and more suitable for whatever) from others. A generic dimension is soundness, consistency and reliability. Regardless of basic structure, RH in the past has skidded on the ice while trying to turn corners too fast. SuSE, so far, seems to have avoided this trap (though I'm not sure about 5.3 and my jury is still hearing evidence on 6.0). Also, SuSE has made a name for including an exceptional variety of applications, all compiled consistently with the distribution.
Standardization is needed. At leas as far as adding packages , ect... This way you know that whatever software you install , You are certio\an that it will install and work. No susrpises. No whait for the XYZ version to come out.It like walk into a stre , if it has a win95/8 loge , you know it will work. Conseptualy.
And, above all, don't forget good documentation. SuSE has not done so well at this as it not only should, but could have done. Internationalisation applies to this area too.
More fit and polish. All that is needed is a realy good suse FAQ/HOWTO . By that I mean an that is complte and sstarts out with basics , then goes int detial. I must admit that there Manuale is very good , but it is sometimes too technical , and makes assumtions you are familiar with suse/linux and are a programer. We need a faq/how to just like what is avialable for linux but for suse. - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e Check out the SuSE-FAQ at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A">http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A</A>> and the archiv at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A">http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A</A>>
I think one good thing would be if S.u.S.E. became more involved in things that impact ALL Linux users--not just S.u.S.E. users on a daily basis in noteable ways. I think the contribution to the Linux community by the other dists, is much more subtle and less mundane ( though important ) than RedHats. I think there needs to be stuff coming from S.u.S.E. that's just plain fun oriented and that participates in NA with joe linux user on a non-dist oriented level ( this doesn't apply to dosemu, X dev, and the S.u.S.E. homepage). Even a S.u.S.E. sponsored non-S.u.S.E. specific Linux/Technology Newspage or Software page might be nice, just for the exposure. This would get people out there to see the 'sponsored by S.u.S.E.' type logo on a daily basis, and would have that impact of embedding S.u.S.E. into North American consciousness just like Redhat and Coca Cola. I love RH's Coca-Cola like ad approach, where you just hear it so damn much you just accept it. :-) -M - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e Check out the SuSE-FAQ at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A">http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A</A>> and the archiv at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A">http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A</A>>
On Sat, 06 Feb 1999, you wrote: Ted Harding, Chris Martin, Michael Johnson, Samy Elashmawy, zentara have all brought forward relevant and interesting statements and points of view in this thread. However I think the single most important issue confronting the Linux world is and remains: standardisation of a base Linux system. There has to be agreement on things like file-system structure, the init process, the basic libraries used and preferably also the naming and the contents of the installation 'packages', the placement of these libraries in the file-sytem tree, etc. etc.. If not it will become unnatractive for ISV's not specialized in Linux to also make versions of their software available for Linux. This is the same problem confronting companies who also develop for Unix, you need seperate versions for DEC unix, HP unix, AIX, etc. Even for companies specialized in Linux it will become irritating. (this is the gist of the reaction of SAS when asked about a Linux version of SAS) And then think of the 'average Joe computer user' mentioned by Chris Martin. Joe uses a SuSE 6.0 system and has discovered the ease of working with rpm's. He discovers the rich source of rpm's available for RH and downloads a couple and installs them on his SuSE sytem only to discover that they either do not work or that he has messed up his system. (the fact that we also have other packaging systems for Debian and Stampede is of less importance as long as tools like 'alien' are kept up to date) We should reach a point of agreement on basic structure of Linux where it does not make one iota difference on which distro a rpm was made. [let me quickly add before Michael Johnson berates me: I too don't think that rpms are the answer to everything. But they sure are easy and comfortable for 'average Joe computer user' :-)]. I was already interested in this issue but this interest has been reinforced by at least three 'incidents' this past year where I was confronted with difference between SuSE en RH. At the office I use RH 5.2 (glibc) and at home SuSE 5.3 (libc). Everything I use at the office I also want at home, and vice versa and the glibc-libc issue is the least of the problems. My latest problem concerns the commercial statistical program Stata that I use professionaly. Two weeks ago I received the new Stata 6.0 for Linux and promptly installed it at home and at the office. [up to now Stata was no problem because it was aout, now they have gone ELF]
On 07-Feb-99 alexander volovics wrote:
Ted Harding, Chris Martin, Michael Johnson, Samy Elashmawy, zentara have all brought forward relevant and interesting statements and points of view in this thread.
However I think the single most important issue confronting the Linux world is and remains: standardisation of a base Linux system.
This was my original point, and Alex V has added many strong arguments for it. Very well said, Alex. I do wonder if the many participants in LSB can ever agree unless by adopting as "standard" the setup already used by one of them. The alternative, as Alex says and as has been forcefully said in other places, is "UNIX Wars" all over again. This is what marginalised UNIX for many major software ISVs; the ones that stayed in were mainly those that depended on platforms with UNIX power for their software to run at all. The principal difference that Linux has from "traditional" UNIX installations is that you get the power at minimal cost for the software, you can use rather low-grade cheap hardware, there are a lot of us about, and of course there is the Open Source community backing you up (though the last factor tends to come into play only after you have taken the plunge). I dare say it *will* settle down, though without an LSB-type standard it could take a lot longer. Ted. -------------------------------------------------------------------- E-Mail: (Ted Harding) <Ted.Harding@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> Date: 08-Feb-99 Time: 12:35:03 ------------------------------ XFMail ------------------------------ - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e Check out the SuSE-FAQ at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A">http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A</A>> and the archiv at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A">http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A</A>>
(Ted Harding) wrote:
The alternative, as Alex says and as has been forcefully said in other places, is "UNIX Wars" all over again. This is what marginalised UNIX for many major software ISVs; the ones that stayed in were mainly those that
It also brings to mind the computer wars of 1978-1981. There were tons of little boxes out there, led by Apple and the Trash80, but IBM fairly well standardized the hardware. Now we are living with the outdated architechture. Then the OS wars between DesqView, Windows , OS/2, Gym and a couple of others. In each war the best designed product didn't win, only the best marketed one (or the vendor using the least scrupples). Linux has avoided the "Unix Wars" by ignoring those that would rekindle the flames. Personally, I like the independence the Linux allows. Can you imagine if the Qt toolkit was declared the standard and Xwindows programs written without it were shunned? Confine yourself to KDE for the next 10-15 years? Why? Let freedom ring, let inovation flourish. There will be enought "standardization" by virtue of the number of packages sold, but each should allow some place in their distro for wiggle room so improvements can burst out. Jerry - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e Check out the SuSE-FAQ at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A">http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A</A>> and the archiv at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A">http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A</A>>
Jerry Lynn Kreps wrote:
the flames. Personally, I like the independence the Linux allows. Can you imagine if the Qt toolkit was declared the standard and Xwindows programs written without it were shunned? Confine yourself to KDE for the next 10-15 years? Why? Let freedom ring, let inovation flourish. There will be enought "standardization" by virtue of the number of packages sold, but each should allow some place in their distro for wiggle room so improvements can burst out. Jerry
YA!!! I was flipping thru the dictionary the other day, and came upon the word "linus". It is defined as " a poet and musician, the inventor of melody and rythm". That is the way I felt when I first took up Linux, it was a great "instrument" for implementing creative ideas. Now, it feels like some "evil maestro" is trying to take the podium, trying to force us all to play some boring old song. - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e Check out the SuSE-FAQ at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A">http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A</A>> and the archiv at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A">http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A</A>>
On 08-Feb-99 Jerry Lynn Kreps wrote:
(Ted Harding) wrote:
The alternative, as Alex says and as has been forcefully said in other places, is "UNIX Wars" all over again. This is what marginalised UNIX for many major software ISVs; the ones that stayed in were mainly those that
Linux has avoided the "Unix Wars" by ignoring those that would rekindle the flames. Personally, I like the independence the Linux allows. Can you imagine if the Qt toolkit was declared the standard and Xwindows programs written without it were shunned? Confine yourself to KDE for the next 10-15 years? Why? Let freedom ring, let inovation flourish. There will be enought "standardization" by virtue of the number of packages sold, but each should allow some place in their distro for wiggle room so improvements can burst out. Jerry
This is also a point of view for which I have strong sympathy. If the only issue were "what would the community of Linux users, breathing the free air, like", I think the answer would be along Jerry's lines. But the current flowering of interest in Linux in the "real software" world (quotation marks deliberate ... ) -- while, at present, the Open Source software for similar purposes continues to lag (and, in the case of Windows compatibility which many of us genuinely need to achieve, continues to be almost lacking except in commercial packages) -- points to a need for a *standard* Linux that any ISV can debelop for and know what the target is. As I pointed out earlier: compare FreeBSD. FreeBSD is what is on the FreeBSD ftp site. There are not 15 versions of it out there, incompatible at a basic level. If you develop for FreeBSD you *know* what it's going to be running on (to within shifts between versions, but that doesn't seem to throw up many problems). Agreed this is a dilemma. Best wishes, Ted. -------------------------------------------------------------------- E-Mail: (Ted Harding) <Ted.Harding@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> Date: 09-Feb-99 Time: 01:16:11 ------------------------------ XFMail ------------------------------ - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e Check out the SuSE-FAQ at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A">http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A</A>> and the archiv at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A">http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A</A>>
On 08-Feb-99 Jerry Lynn Kreps wrote:
(Ted Harding) wrote:
The alternative, as Alex says and as has been forcefully said in other places, is "UNIX Wars" all over again. This is what marginalised UNIX for many major software ISVs; the ones that stayed in were mainly those that
Linux has avoided the "Unix Wars" by ignoring those that would rekindle the flames. Personally, I like the independence the Linux allows. Can you imagine if the Qt toolkit was declared the standard and Xwindows programs written without it were shunned? Confine yourself to KDE for the next 10-15 years? Why? Let freedom ring, let inovation flourish.
IŽd like to download a say KDE or gnome rpm, and install it on my Linux system, redardless what distribution, and it should run. IŽd like a Linux even if itŽs a bit "outdated" but stable. None would stop anybody to develope improvements, that enhance or change the standard after say two years. I you want to stay at the front end of developement, well youŽd have to care for yourself. But I am more like Joe User, that wants a stable system and does not like to dive into Makefiles / config issues over and over again.
There will be enought "standardization" by virtue of the number of packages sold, but each should allow some place in their distro for wiggle room so improvements can burst out.
Similar to the developers kernel: Do improvement on another System and use the standard for dayly work. Then after abt. 2 years there is time for a new standard. Then shift to it. Maybe the changes for application software will be marginal.
Jerry
"(Ted Harding)" wrote:
This is also a point of view for which I have strong sympathy.
If the only issue were "what would the community of Linux users, breathing the free air, like", I think the answer would be along Jerry's lines.
quite true. I think that if the field is big enough, you whould not notice the fence. On the other hand, if there is a reason to move the fence further on, do an election and then move it on.
But the current flowering of interest in Linux in the "real software" world (quotation marks deliberate ... ) -- while, at present, the Open Source software for similar purposes continues to lag (and, in the case of Windows compatibility which many of us genuinely need to achieve, continues to be almost lacking except in commercial packages) -- points to a need for a *standard* Linux that any ISV can debelop for and know what the target is.
That is exacly the point. If distributions differ to much youŽll always have little surprises, like the original Staroffice install program not working on SuSE 6.0 (german). The Install program that comes with SuSE 6.0 (german) works. If you have bought the sligtly better version from stardiv, you cant install it on 6.0. You have copy the 6.0Žs setup overwriting stardivs setup. (see german SDB). Easy thing, but you have either someone tell you, work it out the hard way, or forget the install. (further SO setup versions will correct this)
As I pointed out earlier: compare FreeBSD. FreeBSD is what is on the FreeBSD ftp site. There are not 15 versions of it out there, incompatible at a basic level. If you develop for FreeBSD you *know* what it's going to be running on (to within shifts between versions, but that doesn't seem to throw up many problems).
I do not belive there is very much money in selling dists, there is more money in professional support. ThatŽs whatŽs needed as well. And support will be much easier if you do not have to ask about which dist. is used. Small conversation: A: Hi, heared you got ISDN running, havnŽt you? B: Yapp. Works like a charm. A: Can you help me? IŽve got problems. B: What dist do you use. ItŽs no problem with my ******* A: I use ?????????. B: Hmmm. Sorry. Good luck! Juergen -- ========================================== __ _ Juergen Braukmann mail: brauki@cityweb.de| -o)/ / (_)__ __ ____ __ Tel: 0201-743648 dk4jb@db0qs.#nrw.deu.eu| /\\ /__/ / _ \/ // /\ \/ / ==========================================_\_v __/_/_//_/\_,_/ /_/\_\ - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e Check out the SuSE-FAQ at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A">http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A</A>> and the archiv at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A">http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A</A>>
On Sat, 06 Feb 1999 Chris Martin wrote:
Just wait until RH spends a little time and well funded effort on German distbns. . . .I think SuSE's claim to German fame will quickly fall by the wayside too. . . .$$$ knows no borders. . . ..boo hoo.
Some anecdotal evidence: Last summer I was in Berlin for 3 weeks and I checked all the locations selling Linux boxed sets I could find: In the academic book stores I counted more RH boxes on the shelves than SuSE boxes. At other places I often found one or the other. In the software corner of the KaDeWe dept store they prominently only had RH. I have been in Germany a few time these last 2 years in different cities and allways saw at least as many RH boxes as SuSE boxes. Up to now I have mostly seen RH boxes in the Dutch academic bookstores (if they had any Linux at all). Only the last year have I also seen some SuSE boxes in the computer stores that sell Linux. The number of sites mirroring Linux outnumbers the number of sites mirroring SuSE. Only Debian has a comparable number of mirrors as RH at academic sites. The Dutch Linux User Group regularly burns RH cd's to sell at events and mirrors RH on their server. Ted Harding wrote:
Also, SuSE has made a name for including an exceptional variety of applications, all compiled consistently with the distribution.
I think this can be more of a curse than a blessing, especially as SuSE does not update the rpm's of the included applications between releases. (Debian also includes a lot of stuff but you can mostly quickly get an updated Debian package when something changes, this is not the case with SuSE. There is also no 'culture' of SuSE users uploading updated rpm's as with RH and Debian). If you are not going to update the packages between distributions you can better do as RH does and only distribute a basic Linux and rely on users to update things or release regular cd's with 'stuff to be found on the Linux sites. One example ( I can give a lot more): I use Lyx for my 'word' processing. The definite LyX 1.0 (>=LyX 0.15.x) has already been released. A LyX 1.0 rpm has already been uploaded to the RedHat contribution server. Stata 6.0 (I just checked) only contains LyX 0.12.0pre8-23. It could have contained one of the already very stable LyX 0.15.x which I have been using without any problems and which contains many enhancements and bug fixes compared to 0.12.x. When are they going to distribute LyX 1.0?? ------------------------------------- Alexander Volovics Dept of Methodology & Statistics Maastricht University, Maastricht, NL ------------------------------------- - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e Check out the SuSE-FAQ at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A">http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A</A>> and the archiv at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A">http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A</A>>
participants (9)
-
awol＠STAT.UNIMAAS.NL -
brauki＠cityweb.de -
camst65+＠pitt.edu -
hekate＠intergate.bc.ca -
jlkreps＠navix.net -
LinuxAdvocate＠iname.com -
samelash＠ix.netcom.com -
Ted.Harding＠nessie.mcc.ac.uk -
zentara＠mindspring.com