[opensuse] My first major fail with KDE4
Hmmmm well, I've just encountered my first major fail with KDE4.4 on openSUSE 11.2 (on a computer I support). This is on a laptop install. It was working fine last night, but on startup this morning, the system boots, and when it gets to launching the desktop, all I see is a small box in the upper left which says: kstartupconfig4 does not exist or fails. The error code is 4. Check your installation. I've just picked up the laptop from the owner, and am starting to try to diagnose this... strange... I've done some Googling on this.. only one exact hit from a German language forum. There they traced it back to a kernel update. I don't know if there was an interrupted of failed auto-update when the laptop was in use yesterday. Any ideas on this one? C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 23/02/10 10:32, C wrote:
Hmmmm well, I've just encountered my first major fail with KDE4.4 on openSUSE 11.2 (on a computer I support).
This is on a laptop install. It was working fine last night, but on startup this morning, the system boots, and when it gets to launching the desktop, all I see is a small box in the upper left which says:
kstartupconfig4 does not exist or fails. The error code is 4. Check your installation.
I've just picked up the laptop from the owner, and am starting to try to diagnose this... strange... I've done some Googling on this.. only one exact hit from a German language forum. There they traced it back to a kernel update. I don't know if there was an interrupted of failed auto-update when the laptop was in use yesterday.
Any ideas on this one?
I had never heard of kstartupconfig4 before, but a quick browse through KDE's websvn gives me this: "This utility helps to have some configuration options available in startkde without the need to launch anything linked to KDE libraries (which may need some time to load). " in particular the following operation seems to be the cause of your specific failure: QFile f1( KStandardDirs::locateLocal( "config", "startupconfig" )); if( !f1.open( QIODevice::WriteOnly )) return 4; So for some reason /home/user/.kde4/share/config/startupconfig file is corrupted/unreadable. I'm not sure how to recreate it, maybe just delete it? Mine appears to be a shell script exporting the various preloaded configuration options. Regrds, Tejas -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 12:15, Tejas Guruswamy <masterpatricko@gmail.com> wrote:
I had never heard of kstartupconfig4 before, but a quick browse through KDE's websvn gives me this:
Neither have I :-)
So for some reason /home/user/.kde4/share/config/startupconfig file is corrupted/unreadable.
That's the approach I took as I started to dig into this. It turns out that KDE4 wasn't at fault here.... the hard drive was. There was a corruption on the hard drive, and the /home partition (reiser) was mounted read-only (discovered that by poking around in the messages logs). With the /home in ro mode, KDE could not start up since it needed to write locks etc to that ro partition. I did a reiserfsck /dev/sda3 which told me to do a --rebuild-tree. So I did a reiserfsck --rebuild-tree /dev/sda3 and it did it's magic... and I'm back up and running again. Question is.... do I trust the Reiser partition to continue working now? Do I need to replace the hard drive? C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Question is.... do I trust the Reiser partition to continue working now?
Is reiser still maintained? In the aftermath of the Reiser trial, I switched my non-ext partitions to JFS. The truth is, as a desktop I've noticed no difference. Unless you have a compelling reason to stick with reiser (email server, or other lots of small files with frequent turnover) then you can switch.
Do I need to replace the hard drive?
What does SMART say? -- Dotan Cohen http://bido.com http://what-is-what.com Please CC me if you want to be sure that I read your message. I do not read all list mail. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Dotan Cohen wrote:
Question is.... do I trust the Reiser partition to continue working now? Is reiser still maintained? In the aftermath of the Reiser trial, I switched my non-ext partitions to JFS. The truth is, as a desktop I've noticed no difference. Unless you have a compelling reason to stick with reiser (email server, or other lots of small files with frequent turnover) then you can switch.
Speaking as a Cyrus IMAP admin - the small-file argument is pretty much bogus at this point. With dir index enabled current ext3 is pretty good; that plus directory hashing [a server feature] you have to have a very large load to record a significant different between filesystems. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 23 February 2010 21:11, Adam Tauno Williams <awilliam@whitemice.org> wrote:
Dotan Cohen wrote:
Question is.... do I trust the Reiser partition to continue working now?
Is reiser still maintained? In the aftermath of the Reiser trial, I switched my non-ext partitions to JFS. The truth is, as a desktop I've noticed no difference. Unless you have a compelling reason to stick with reiser (email server, or other lots of small files with frequent turnover) then you can switch.
Speaking as a Cyrus IMAP admin - the small-file argument is pretty much bogus at this point. With dir index enabled current ext3 is pretty good; that plus directory hashing [a server feature] you have to have a very large load to record a significant different between filesystems.
Thanks. I've heard that today the ext filesystems are fine for email servers, but never from anyone that I'd call reliably experienced enough to know :). According to wikipedia Reiser is still maintained, so the OP can continue using it if he wishes. I personally would keep the filesystem as it is if this is an isolated incident. But if it happens again, JFS or ext3. -- Dotan Cohen http://bido.com http://what-is-what.com Please CC me if you want to be sure that I read your message. I do not read all list mail. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Dotan Cohen said the following on 02/23/2010 02:39 PM:
I personally would keep the filesystem as it is if this is an isolated incident. But if it happens again, JFS or ext3.
Bear in mind though, changing file systems is not a solution of the problem is with the underlying drive. -- "You know, Watson, I don't mind confessing to you that I have always had an idea that I would have made a highly efficient criminal. This is the chance of my lifetime in that direction. See here!" He took a neat little leather case out of a drawer, and opening it he exhibited a number of shining instruments. "This is a first-class, up-to-date burgling kit, with nickel-plated jemmy, diamond-tipped glass-cutter, adaptable keys, and every modern improvement which the march of civilization demands." -- Sherlock Holmes, in "The Adventure of Charles Augustus Milverton" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Bear in mind though, changing file systems is not a solution of the problem is with the underlying drive.
From the OP's description it sounded to me like a filesystem problem, not a hardware problem. I have had ext3 do similar things (usually after a power outage) though I don't use reiser.
Like I said earlier, OP should use the SMART tools to decide if the drive is healthy. -- Dotan Cohen http://bido.com http://what-is-what.com Please CC me if you want to be sure that I read your message. I do not read all list mail. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 22:08, Dotan Cohen <dotancohen@gmail.com> wrote:
From the OP's description it sounded to me like a filesystem problem, not a hardware problem. I have had ext3 do similar things (usually after a power outage) though I don't use reiser.
Like I said earlier, OP should use the SMART tools to decide if the drive is healthy.
I didn't think of that when I was reviving the laptop... :-P and now it's back at the user's home.. out of my reach again. I will just cross my fingers and hope it survives until i can get to it again. I made a full backup of all data about a week prior to the fail... so if the drive fails completely, I've got enough to rebuild on a new drive. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 4:22 PM, C <smaug42@gmail.com> wrote:
I didn't think of that when I was reviving the laptop... :-P and now it's back at the user's home.. out of my reach again. I will just cross my fingers and hope it survives until i can get to it again. I made a full backup of all data about a week prior to the fail... so if the drive fails completely, I've got enough to rebuild on a new drive.
I'd run a badblocks on the drive or use the ultimate boot cd's utils to test the drive. I had a 250GB WD laptop PATA drive that I've used for almost 2 years that got a corruption in reiser recently and the drive ended up having problems(you could hear a chirp when it read.......). Only time I've ever had an issue with reiser was an actual drive problem. Reiser defaults to running an fsck every 30 mounts. Not a bad idea in my opinion and it doesn't take that long. I too moved away from ext2 with SuSE 6.x due to power failures making the system unusable without a manual fsck. Resier was so much better. So long as reiser is still supported(and even the bug that beagle uncovered was fixed), I'm gonna keep using it. 4.x was faster but never fully merged into the kernel. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Larry Stotler said the following on 02/23/2010 10:36 PM:
So long as reiser is still supported(and even the bug that beagle uncovered was fixed), I'm gonna keep using it. 4.x was faster but never fully merged into the kernel.
I'm glad ext4 can handle such big files and such big filesystems. I'm sure this excites people doing video, sound and database stuff, which see to be so important to the future of Linux, as evidenced by what's going on in Hollywood, Wall Street and few other places. But there's more to life than big files. The bulk of the 'Net carries smaller files, html, images, web icons, mail, news. The majority of machines have smaller files, binaries, libraries ... Yes, I know ext4, and ext3, can be optimized for small files. BTDT. But Reiser seems more inherently flexible over a wide band of smaller situations without any tuning. What was that joke about not being able to tune a fish? I *like* the idea of a FS that you can't tune because you don't need to :-) -- Two key perspectives from Jim Collin's book "Good to Great". 1) "Being great is a decision" and 2) "Being good is an enemy of being great" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Two key perspectives from Jim Collin's book "Good to Great". 1) "Being great is a decision" and 2) "Being good is an enemy of being great"
KDE 3 was great. KDE 4 is good. (sorry, I had to) -- Dotan Cohen http://bido.com http://what-is-what.com Please CC me if you want to be sure that I read your message. I do not read all list mail. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, 2010-02-25 at 11:13 +0200, Dotan Cohen wrote:
Two key perspectives from Jim Collin's book "Good to Great". 1) "Being great is a decision" and 2) "Being good is an enemy of being great" KDE 3 was great. KDE 4 is good. (sorry, I had to)
GNOME is fabulous, and just keeps getting better. I had to use XP for 48 hours.... now I'm back in the land of the productive. -- openSUSE <http://www.opensuse.org/en/> Linux for human beings who need to get work done. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 12:24, Adam Tauno Williams <awilliam@whitemice.org> wrote:
GNOME is fabulous, and just keeps getting better.
I wonder if the same will be said when Gnome3 is released? It is looking to be as radically different to Gnome 2 as KDE4 was to KDE3.... at least last time I checked out Gnome 3 plans/progress. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
I wonder if the same will be said when Gnome3 is released? It is looking to be as radically different to Gnome 2 as KDE4 was to KDE3.... at least last time I checked out Gnome 3 plans/progress.
I am not following the development of Gnome, but are they removing features for the 3.0 release? Can Gnome 3.0 not do things that 2.8 could? -- Dotan Cohen http://bido.com http://what-is-what.com Please CC me if you want to be sure that I read your message. I do not read all list mail. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 15:02, Dotan Cohen <dotancohen@gmail.com> wrote:
I wonder if the same will be said when Gnome3 is released? It is looking to be as radically different to Gnome 2 as KDE4 was to KDE3.... at least last time I checked out Gnome 3 plans/progress.
I am not following the development of Gnome, but are they removing features for the 3.0 release? Can Gnome 3.0 not do things that 2.8 could?
A quick poke of Google turns up this page... and loads others. http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2009/09/gnome-3-quick-visual-tour.html Basically Gnome3 will be different from what I read... a lot different, and it's picking up on some of the same (or at least similar) concepts as KDE4 currently has. Your question though... Can Gnome3 not do things 2.8 could... doesn't make sense... I don't know what you're asking - and as someone who rarely uses Gnome on purpose.. I can't answer it anyway. Gnome3 looks to be a big change... just like KDE4 was a big change. Will it be a messy or as smooth.. who knows. I do hope that some lessons were learned from how KDE4 was launched, and that they are applied with the Gnome 3 side of things. One thing is for sure for me... I will try out Gnome3 when I have a chance. I am not a Gnome user now, nor have I ever liked Gnome.. but who's to say what the new version brings.. maybe I'll like it better than KDE4 :-) Take a look here http://en.opensuse.org/GNOME/3.0 What I'd like to know before I install... What's the prereqs? Will I break my KDE4 install? Or more importantly... will I get PulseAudio installed in the process? :-( C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, 2010-02-25 at 15:13 +0100, C wrote:
On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 15:02, Dotan Cohen <dotancohen@gmail.com> wrote:
I wonder if the same will be said when Gnome3 is released? It is looking to be as radically different to Gnome 2 as KDE4 was to KDE3.... at least last time I checked out Gnome 3 plans/progress. I am not following the development of Gnome, but are they removing features for the 3.0 release? Can Gnome 3.0 not do things that 2.8 could? A quick poke of Google turns up this page... and loads others. http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2009/09/gnome-3-quick-visual-tour.html Basically Gnome3 will be different from what I read... a lot different
As a daily GNOME user, I've tried GNOME 3, it isn't all that different. The layout changes, allocating workspaces is dynamic. All to the good.
Gnome3 looks to be a big change... just like KDE4 was a big change. Will it be a messy or as smooth.. who knows.
It runs perfectly for me. Zeitgiest, etc... are fabulous. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 02/25/2010 09:02 AM, Dotan Cohen pecked at the keyboard and wrote:
I wonder if the same will be said when Gnome3 is released? It is looking to be as radically different to Gnome 2 as KDE4 was to KDE3.... at least last time I checked out Gnome 3 plans/progress.
I am not following the development of Gnome, but are they removing features for the 3.0 release? Can Gnome 3.0 not do things that 2.8 could?
No, it will still *not* be able to things in 3.0 that it can't in 2.8. :-) -- Ken Schneider SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
No, it will still *not* be able to things in 3.0 that it can't in 2.8. :-)
That's funny, but really, what cannot be done in Gnome? As someone who is considering moving to Gnome after nine years on KDE, what would I be missing? -- Dotan Cohen http://bido.com http://what-is-what.com Please CC me if you want to be sure that I read your message. I do not read all list mail. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Dotan Cohen wrote:
No, it will still *not* be able to things in 3.0 that it can't in 2.8. :-)
That's funny, but really, what cannot be done in Gnome? As someone who is considering moving to Gnome after nine years on KDE, what would I be missing?
From someone who is going through all the work to try to get kde 4.x bugreports filed and fixed, this does not sound encouraging. -- Tony Alfrey tonyalfrey@earthlink.net "I'd Rather Be Sailing" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
That's funny, but really, what cannot be done in Gnome? As someone who is considering moving to Gnome after nine years on KDE, what would I be missing?
From someone who is going through all the work to try to get kde 4.x bugreports filed and fixed, this does not sound encouraging.
I have found that I'm now going through the KDE changelogs less looking for what is new and helpful, and more for what is removed and broken. One of my major apps, Kaddressbook, has had much of the functionality that I depend on removed for KDE 4.4. I intend to spend a few months on Gnome and help improve that desktop in much the same way that I help KDE. If Gnome is now moving to a major new paradigm, then it makes sense for me to be testing and using that. -- Dotan Cohen http://bido.com http://what-is-what.com Please CC me if you want to be sure that I read your message. I do not read all list mail. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Thursday 25 February 2010 17:45:21 Dotan Cohen wrote:
I have found that I'm now going through the KDE changelogs less looking for what is new and helpful, and more for what is removed and broken. One of my major apps, Kaddressbook, has had much of the functionality that I depend on removed for KDE 4.4.
Dotan, would it help if we made the KDE SC 4.3.5 kaddressbook built vs KDE 4.4.x available while the features temporarily lost during the Akonadi port are restored? It should be possible. Will Will Stephenson, KDE Developer, openSUSE Boosters Team SUSE LINUX Products GmbH - Nürnberg - AG Nürnberg - HRB 16746 - GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 1 March 2010 19:41, Will Stephenson <wstephenson@suse.de> wrote:
On Thursday 25 February 2010 17:45:21 Dotan Cohen wrote:
I have found that I'm now going through the KDE changelogs less looking for what is new and helpful, and more for what is removed and broken. One of my major apps, Kaddressbook, has had much of the functionality that I depend on removed for KDE 4.4.
Dotan, would it help if we made the KDE SC 4.3.5 kaddressbook built vs KDE 4.4.x available while the features temporarily lost during the Akonadi port are restored? It should be possible.
That would be about the greatest thing Suse ever did! -- Dotan Cohen http://bido.com http://what-is-what.com Please CC me if you want to be sure that I read your message. I do not read all list mail. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 01 March 2010 21:21:11 Dotan Cohen wrote:
On 1 March 2010 19:41, Will Stephenson <wstephenson@suse.de> wrote:
On Thursday 25 February 2010 17:45:21 Dotan Cohen wrote:
I have found that I'm now going through the KDE changelogs less looking for what is new and helpful, and more for what is removed and broken. One of my major apps, Kaddressbook, has had much of the functionality that I depend on removed for KDE 4.4.
Dotan, would it help if we made the KDE SC 4.3.5 kaddressbook built vs KDE 4.4.x available while the features temporarily lost during the Akonadi port are restored? It should be possible.
That would be about the greatest thing Suse ever did!
Heh, well I don't know about that but I see now how much these features mean to you. So try the kdepim4 packages from home:wstephenson:branches:KDE:KDE4:Factory:Desktop specifically the kaddressbook package, which contains the akonadi based kaddressbook and the old one, _renamed_to_koldaddressbook_. I have built it locally and it runs, so the OBS should have built through in an hour or so. Be aware though, I don't like swimming against the current like this so I am not going to a) keep this up to date going forward or fix bugs in the old kaddressbook b) port Amarok 1.x to Qt 4 [1] c) port Kicker + KDesktop similarly ;). In return I hope you will ensure bugs are filed at bugs.kde.org vs kaddressbook and clearly marked as Regressions for all the features not yet restored to the Akonadi kaddressbook, so KDAB, who have assured me that the Akonadi ports in KDE 4.5 will be ready for production use, and the community kdepim developers, do not write off features as won't-be-missed. The only regressions reported by you so far vs current kaddressbook are the missing fields at bko#222678 (see http://bit.ly/ayiL1u), there must be others. Will [1] Already happened, see KDE:KDE4:Community clementine. -- Will Stephenson, openSUSE Team SUSE LINUX Products GmbH - Nürnberg - AG Nürnberg - HRB 16746 - GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
In return I hope you will ensure bugs are filed at bugs.kde.org vs kaddressbook and clearly marked as Regressions for all the features not yet restored to the Akonadi kaddressbook, so KDAB, who have assured me that the Akonadi ports in KDE 4.5 will be ready for production use, and the community kdepim developers, do not write off features as won't-be-missed.
The only regressions reported by you so far vs current kaddressbook are the missing fields at bko#222678 (see http://bit.ly/ayiL1u), there must be others.
I have already filed the missing feature bugs at BKO six weeks ago: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=222677 https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=222678 https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=222681 https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=222682 https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=222684 https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=222690 https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=223756 https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=223757 -- Dotan Cohen http://bido.com http://what-is-what.com Please CC me if you want to be sure that I read your message. I do not read all list mail. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 15:47, Dotan Cohen <dotancohen@gmail.com> wrote:
That's funny, but really, what cannot be done in Gnome? As someone who is considering moving to Gnome after nine years on KDE, what would I be missing?
The simple answer... nothing. Gnome is a perfectly capable window manager... as are pretty much all commonly used window managers in Linux. Each person's view of what's good/bad in Gnome is very much.. their own view. Personally I get frustrated with Gnome in some of the more subtle things... like focus stealing... the openSUSE Gnome slab menu thing... I really dislike how it works, especially once you want to find apps that are not in the short list. Another aspect is desktop configuration... KDE has much finer grained control in the top level Config window than Gnome does (although Gnome implements the changes you make a lot smoother) - you can tweak Gnome at a level the borders on insane though if you're willing to dive in deeper... into a tool that makes the Windows Regedit look elegant :-( I also don't like how the file manager aspects work.. especially when called from within an application. There are other bits that I think are better in KDE.. like Dolphin... but.. this is all just how I view it. A person who finds Gnome to be "just right" will disagree with me on every point... but that's OK :-) As a window manager, it does the job just fine. You'll find it works as well as any other wm choice you have. Best thing you can do.. install it.. try it.. if it feels right, use it. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, 2010-02-25 at 16:01 +0100, C wrote:
On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 15:47, Dotan Cohen <dotancohen@gmail.com> wrote:
That's funny, but really, what cannot be done in Gnome? As someone who is considering moving to Gnome after nine years on KDE, what would I be missing? The simple answer... nothing. Gnome is a perfectly capable window manager... as are pretty much all commonly used window managers in Linux.
It is now a window manager, it is a desktop environment.
Each person's view of what's good/bad in Gnome is very much.. their own view. Personally I get frustrated with Gnome in some of the more subtle things... like focus stealing... the openSUSE Gnome slab menu thing... I really dislike how it works, especially once you want to find apps that are not in the short list.
Ditto. I'm not a slab user. GNOME-Do = happiness.
As a window manager, it does the job just fine. You'll find it works as well as any other wm choice you have.
It isn't a window manager, it is a desktop environment. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 25 February 2010 17:01, C <smaug42@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 15:47, Dotan Cohen <dotancohen@gmail.com> wrote:
That's funny, but really, what cannot be done in Gnome? As someone who is considering moving to Gnome after nine years on KDE, what would I be missing?
The simple answer... nothing. Gnome is a perfectly capable window manager... as are pretty much all commonly used window managers in Linux.
Of course _some_ things will be missing should I stick with an all-Gnome setup. Okular, for one, is unmatched as far as PDF readers go. And no Gnome app is as configurable as their KDE counterparts, even keyboard shortcuts cannot be assigned nor changed. Nor can icons or toolbars be modified from what I understand.
Each person's view of what's good/bad in Gnome is very much.. their own view. Personally I get frustrated with Gnome in some of the more subtle things... like focus stealing... the openSUSE Gnome slab menu thing... I really dislike how it works, especially once you want to find apps that are not in the short list. Another aspect is desktop configuration... KDE has much finer grained control in the top level Config window than Gnome does (although Gnome implements the changes you make a lot smoother) - you can tweak Gnome at a level the borders on insane though if you're willing to dive in deeper... into a tool that makes the Windows Regedit look elegant :-( I also don't like how the file manager aspects work.. especially when called from within an application. There are other bits that I think are better in KDE.. like Dolphin... but.. this is all just how I view it. A person who finds Gnome to be "just right" will disagree with me on every point... but that's OK :-)
That's what I want to know, though. Thanks.
As a window manager, it does the job just fine. You'll find it works as well as any other wm choice you have.
Best thing you can do.. install it.. try it.. if it feels right, use it.
C.
-- Dotan Cohen http://bido.com http://what-is-what.com Please CC me if you want to be sure that I read your message. I do not read all list mail. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, 2010-02-25 at 19:05 +0200, Dotan Cohen wrote:
On 25 February 2010 17:01, C <smaug42@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 15:47, Dotan Cohen <dotancohen@gmail.com> wrote:
That's funny, but really, what cannot be done in Gnome? As someone who is considering moving to Gnome after nine years on KDE, what would I be missing? The simple answer... nothing. Gnome is a perfectly capable window manager... as are pretty much all commonly used window managers in Linux. Of course _some_ things will be missing should I stick with an all-Gnome setup. Okular, for one, is unmatched as far as PDF readers go. And no Gnome app is as configurable as their KDE counterparts,
Whatever that means.
even keyboard shortcuts cannot be assigned nor changed.
Not true. I changed a key-binding just this morning.
Nor can icons or toolbars be modified from what I understand.
Not true. This is a perennial gripe of KDE users against GNOME that is (a) in large part unfounded and (b) makes many GNOME users [including me] wonder if KDE users actually have a use for their computers or if they sit around tweaking their desktop all day. GNOME, most of the time, chooses to avoid creating massive and cluttered config dialogs for options 98 out of 100 users would either not understand or have any reason to care about - it's a feature not a bug. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
even keyboard shortcuts cannot be assigned nor changed.
Not true. I changed a key-binding just this morning.
How do I assign a New Folder keybinding to Nautilus?
Nor can icons or toolbars be modified from what I understand.
Not true.
How do I assign a New Folder icon to Nautilus? -- Dotan Cohen http://bido.com http://what-is-what.com Please CC me if you want to be sure that I read your message. I do not read all list mail. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, 2010-02-26 at 09:55 +0200, Dotan Cohen wrote:
even keyboard shortcuts cannot be assigned nor changed.
Not true. I changed a key-binding just this morning. How do I assign a New Folder keybinding to Nautilus?
The same way you do in just about every GNOME applications. Go to System -> Personal -> Look-n-Feel, then in the Interface tab check "Editable menu shortcut keys". Go to nautilus->File, hover over the shortcut, and press whatever you want it to be. It changes on the fly. It is a good idea to uncheck "Editable menu shortcut keys" once you've changed what you want to so that you don't accidentally re-assign key bindings.
Nor can icons or toolbars be modified from what I understand. Not true. How do I assign a New Folder icon to Nautilus?
Icons are controlled via themes; customize the theme if you want to change this. Although I do think that is a strictly KDE mindset thing - there isn't any good reason to micro-manage such things; they are best controlled by their container [the theme] -- openSUSE w/GNOME <http://www.opensuse.org/en/> Linux for human beings who need to get work done. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 26 February 2010 17:43, Adam Tauno Williams <awilliam@whitemice.org> wrote:
On Fri, 2010-02-26 at 09:55 +0200, Dotan Cohen wrote:
even keyboard shortcuts cannot be assigned nor changed.
Not true. I changed a key-binding just this morning. How do I assign a New Folder keybinding to Nautilus?
The same way you do in just about every GNOME applications.
Go to System -> Personal -> Look-n-Feel, then in the Interface tab check "Editable menu shortcut keys".
Go to nautilus->File, hover over the shortcut, and press whatever you want it to be. It changes on the fly.
That must be the most unintuitive, non-obvious and cumbersome procedure that I have ever heard of. But I won't complain, at least it _is_ possible. Well, if you are in a Gnome environment it might be possible. Being in KDE I don't have a System menu (Well, actually, I do. But KDE and Gnome both are arrogant enough to call themselves "System".). I opened gnome-appearance-properties (don't ask how I found out the name of the executable) and from there Interface -> Editable Menu Shortcut Keys. However, now hovering over an item and pressing my desired shortcut does _not_ change it. So either I am in the wrong executable (very possible) or this cannot be configured outside a Gnome environment (I don't know about the feasibility of this).
It is a good idea to uncheck "Editable menu shortcut keys" once you've changed what you want to so that you don't accidentally re-assign key bindings.
Will do, thanks.
Nor can icons or toolbars be modified from what I understand. Not true. How do I assign a New Folder icon to Nautilus?
Icons are controlled via themes; customize the theme if you want to change this. Although I do think that is a strictly KDE mindset thing - there isn't any good reason to micro-manage such things; they are best controlled by their container [the theme]
All right, then, how exactly do I change this theme? I'm sure that I could google it, but I'd rather lazyweb it while I have your attention to continue the conversation. Just to clarify: I am not arguing but rather trying to figure out the Gnome mindset. I intend to spend a good few months (at least one KDE cycle) on Gnome and I find the communities differ greatly. Don't take me for a troll. -- Dotan Cohen http://bido.com http://what-is-what.com Please CC me if you want to be sure that I read your message. I do not read all list mail. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 02/25/2010 09:47 AM, Dotan Cohen pecked at the keyboard and wrote:
No, it will still *not* be able to things in 3.0 that it can't in 2.8. :-)
That's funny, but really, what cannot be done in Gnome? As someone who is considering moving to Gnome after nine years on KDE, what would I be missing?
All joking aside, I haven't tried gnome in a while but what I found it was laking was the ability to configure the desktop as well as I could in KDE. Perhaps things have changed since I last tried it. -- Ken Schneider SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, 2010-02-25 at 12:30 +0100, C wrote:
On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 12:24, Adam Tauno Williams <awilliam@whitemice.org> wrote:
GNOME is fabulous, and just keeps getting better.
I wonder if the same will be said when Gnome3 is released? It is looking to be as radically different to Gnome 2 as KDE4 was to KDE3.... at least last time I checked out Gnome 3 plans/progress.
I thought someone wrote some months ago, that the path of gnome was more evolution, instead of the "revolution"-ary path of KDE. Or actually, that Gnome3 would be nothing more than a rename of the current version... Could be mistaken, i'm kind of stuck to kde, since 1.0.. hw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, 2010-02-26 at 12:10 +0100, Hans Witvliet wrote:
On Thu, 2010-02-25 at 12:30 +0100, C wrote:
On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 12:24, Adam Tauno Williams <awilliam@whitemice.org> wrote:
GNOME is fabulous, and just keeps getting better. I wonder if the same will be said when Gnome3 is released? It is looking to be as radically different to Gnome 2 as KDE4 was to KDE3.... at least last time I checked out Gnome 3 plans/progress. I thought someone wrote some months ago, that the path of gnome was more evolution, instead of the "revolution"-ary path of KDE.
Ah, more meaningless broad and vague generalizations.
Or actually, that Gnome3 would be nothing more than a rename of the current version... Could be mistaken, i'm kind of stuck to kde, since 1.0..
No, there is new infrastructure in GNOME 3, and numerous new features, and a significant change to the DTE paradigm. But in everyday use the transition is pretty much seamless. Your "someone" has no idea what they are talking about. -- openSUSE w/GNOME <http://www.opensuse.org/en/> Linux for human beings who need to get work done. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
I thought someone wrote some months ago, that the path of gnome was more evolution, instead of the "revolution"-ary path of KDE.
Ah, more meaningless broad and vague generalizations.
What is meaningless and broad there? Gnome creates 3.0 by taking 2.8 and adding features. KDE creates 4.0 by tossing 3.5.10 out the window and rewriting everything. Then they release 4.0 as a developers-only release, and even 4.1 was for "early adopters". KDE 4.4 is still missing some of the most basic features, such as photo metadata in the file browser. I have filed or triaged well over 1200 bugs at KDE for tens of users, before you go attacking my stance by attacking my interests or intentions. -- Dotan Cohen http://bido.com http://what-is-what.com Please CC me if you want to be sure that I read your message. I do not read all list mail. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, 2010-02-26 at 17:42 +0200, Dotan Cohen wrote:
I thought someone wrote some months ago, that the path of gnome was more evolution, instead of the "revolution"-ary path of KDE. Ah, more meaningless broad and vague generalizations. What is meaningless and broad there? Gnome creates 3.0 by taking 2.8 and adding features. KDE creates 4.0 by tossing 3.5.10 out the window and rewriting everything.
As has been stated multiple times - here - by KDE developers - they did *NOT* "rewriting everything". They re-factored some code, rewrote some code, and sent some code out the sheds. The GNOME project has done much the same thing. For example: Glade [a commonly used GNOME component] is deprecated and should not be used in GNOME 3.x applications. There is a new GNOME UI framework for describing interfaces in XML. This is all just the normal life-cycle of large code bases. Describing any of the above cases as "evolutionary" or "revolutionary" is indeed vague and meaningless. If you want to talk about development practices then use specifically development practice terminology. Or don't; because end users don't, and shouldn't, give a crap about development processes.
Then they release 4.0 as a developers-only release, and even 4.1 was for "early adopters". KDE 4.4 is still missing some of the most basic features, such as photo metadata in the file browser. I have filed or triaged well over 1200 bugs at KDE for tens of users, before you go attacking my stance by attacking my interests or intentions.
-- openSUSE w/GNOME <http://www.opensuse.org/en/> Linux for human beings who need to get work done. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 26 February 2010 17:59, Adam Tauno Williams <awilliam@whitemice.org> wrote:
On Fri, 2010-02-26 at 17:42 +0200, Dotan Cohen wrote:
I thought someone wrote some months ago, that the path of gnome was more evolution, instead of the "revolution"-ary path of KDE. Ah, more meaningless broad and vague generalizations. What is meaningless and broad there? Gnome creates 3.0 by taking 2.8 and adding features. KDE creates 4.0 by tossing 3.5.10 out the window and rewriting everything.
As has been stated multiple times - here - by KDE developers - they did *NOT* "rewriting everything".
They re-factored some code, rewrote some code, and sent some code out the sheds.
Not true. Plasma (the KDE desktop and panel) are completely new codebases, there is _nothing_ in there carryover from KDE 3. Some KDE apps were carryover although even these need major work to replace the Qt3 dependency with Qt4. I don't know where you got your info from, but trust me, KDE 4 is new almost from the ground up, and the desktop and panel have no KDE 3 code.
The GNOME project has done much the same thing. For example: Glade [a commonly used GNOME component] is deprecated and should not be used in GNOME 3.x applications. There is a new GNOME UI framework for describing interfaces in XML.
This is all just the normal life-cycle of large code bases.
Agreed. However, the point about keeping the user side of the UI consistent (ie, evolution) seems to be a Gnome priority. Not so with KDE, who rewrote the entire code base and did _not_ have feature parity with older versions as either a priority or an intention (ie, revolution).
Describing any of the above cases as "evolutionary" or "revolutionary" is indeed vague and meaningless. If you want to talk about development practices then use specifically development practice terminology.
You are right, therefore I explained above how the two terms are being used.
Or don't; because end users don't, and shouldn't, give a crap about development processes.
While I agree that in a perfect world end users should not be concerned with the development process, the KDE world is not perfect. -- Dotan Cohen http://bido.com http://what-is-what.com Please CC me if you want to be sure that I read your message. I do not read all list mail. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 26 of February 2010, Dotan Cohen wrote:
On 26 February 2010 17:59, Adam Tauno Williams <awilliam@whitemice.org> wrote:
On Fri, 2010-02-26 at 17:42 +0200, Dotan Cohen wrote:
I thought someone wrote some months ago, that the path of gnome was more evolution, instead of the "revolution"-ary path of KDE.
Ah, more meaningless broad and vague generalizations.
What is meaningless and broad there? Gnome creates 3.0 by taking 2.8 and adding features. KDE creates 4.0 by tossing 3.5.10 out the window and rewriting everything.
As has been stated multiple times - here - by KDE developers - they did *NOT* "rewriting everything".
They re-factored some code, rewrote some code, and sent some code out the sheds.
Not true. Plasma (the KDE desktop and panel) are completely new codebases, there is _nothing_ in there carryover from KDE 3.
The desktop and panel are nowhere near the whole of the KDE Software Compilation or the KDE Platform and not even the whole of the KDE Workspaces (http://dot.kde.org/2009/11/24/repositioning-kde-brand). And, as far as that "_nothing_" is concerned, in fact there is some code in Plasma that is reused from KDE3.
Some KDE apps were carryover although even these need major work to replace the Qt3 dependency with Qt4.
Porting is normal when something lower in the stack changes in an incompatible way.
I don't know where you got your info from,
From me. I'm repeating it only the third time this week.
but trust me, KDE 4 is new almost from the ground up,
As a whole, no.
Agreed. However, the point about keeping the user side of the UI consistent (ie, evolution) seems to be a Gnome priority. Not so with KDE,
So, unlike KDE4 which has new desktop shell implementation, GNOME3 has new desktop shell implementation that, unlike KDE4 which changes quite some KDE UI aspects, changes quite some GNOME UI aspects, with, unlike with KDE4 where the old implementation was eventually abandoned, the old implementation would be eventually abandoned, and that makes them completely different. Hmm. Could you run that past me once again? Or, after a second thought, rather don't. No need to make these long annoying threads even more so. -- Lubos Lunak openSUSE Boosters team, KDE developer l.lunak@suse.cz , l.lunak@kde.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Not true. Plasma (the KDE desktop and panel) are completely new codebases, there is _nothing_ in there carryover from KDE 3.
The desktop and panel are nowhere near the whole of the KDE Software Compilation or the KDE Platform and not even the whole of the KDE Workspaces (http://dot.kde.org/2009/11/24/repositioning-kde-brand).
At the time of KDE 4.0, we were still two years away from the KDE SC redefinition. You will notice that I am one of the few who correctly use the term KDE SC when referring to KDE >= 4.4
And, as far as that "_nothing_" is concerned, in fact there is some code in Plasma that is reused from KDE3.
If you want to be pedantic, then yes. It is minuscule. Even gnome has an "int main" line in there somewhere.
Some KDE apps were carryover although even these need major work to replace the Qt3 dependency with Qt4.
Porting is normal when something lower in the stack changes in an incompatible way.
That strengthens my argument, not weakens it.
I don't know where you got your info from,
From me. I'm repeating it only the third time this week.
but trust me, KDE 4 is new almost from the ground up,
As a whole, no.
KDE the desktop and panels. Not KDE SC, which was not even a concept when 4.0 was released.
Agreed. However, the point about keeping the user side of the UI consistent (ie, evolution) seems to be a Gnome priority. Not so with KDE,
So, unlike KDE4 which has new desktop shell implementation, GNOME3 has new desktop shell implementation that, unlike KDE4 which changes quite some KDE UI aspects, changes quite some GNOME UI aspects, with, unlike with KDE4 where the old implementation was eventually abandoned, the old implementation would be eventually abandoned, and that makes them completely different.
Hmm. Could you run that past me once again? Or, after a second thought, rather don't. No need to make these long annoying threads even more so.
As much as I like your creative exaggerations and bending of facts, I will not take the bait. I will do as you suggest, that is _not_ to run that past you again, as I agree that at this stage it is a pointless "you're wrong I'm right" pissing match. -- Dotan Cohen http://bido.com http://what-is-what.com Please CC me if you want to be sure that I read your message. I do not read all list mail. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 20:39, Dotan Cohen <dotancohen@gmail.com> wrote:
Question is.... do I trust the Reiser partition to continue working now?
Is reiser still maintained? In the aftermath of the Reiser trial, I switched my non-ext partitions to JFS. The truth is, as a desktop I've noticed no difference. Unless you have a compelling reason to stick with reiser (email server, or other lots of small files with frequent turnover) then you can switch.
Speaking as a Cyrus IMAP admin - the small-file argument is pretty much bogus at this point. With dir index enabled current ext3 is pretty good; that plus directory hashing [a server feature] you have to have a very large load to record a significant different between filesystems.
Thanks. I've heard that today the ext filesystems are fine for email servers, but never from anyone that I'd call reliably experienced enough to know :).
According to wikipedia Reiser is still maintained, so the OP can continue using it if he wishes. I personally would keep the filesystem as it is if this is an isolated incident. But if it happens again, JFS or ext3.
I only use Reiser out of habit.... it used to be the default on openSUSE many releases ago... and I've stuck with it since all my drives ended up Reiser formatted. I'm more than happy to change though... there is no technical reason I[m using Reiser. I used to use ext3 (or was that ext2?), but got tired of what was at the time an annoying fsck on some boots. On my main machine I don't mind using a file system that I need to tweak a little, or that is default to do a file system check on every 20th mount The computer hardly ever restarts, so that 20th mount might be once ever 6 months or even longer I picked Resier on the laptop I did the 11.2 install on because I am unfamiliar with ext4... and knew Reiser. This laptop is in another person's home.. and I'm not able to even rlogin to it to do maintenance if it's needed. I didn't want to have an unknown if it wasn't necessary. Also, I definitely did not want the user (first time Linux user) to bump into the 20th mount fsck thing on etx3 and the slow boot. I've got the laptop booting to the KDE4 desktop in about 15 or 16 seconds right now, and the user loves that. The laptop is started up and shutdown several times per day... so the 20th mount would be bumped into rather quickly. Yes I know I could tweak that... I don't want to have to deal with it though on a remote system... etc etc. You know... now that I think of it.. is that 20th mount fsck a relic of ext2? and not done on ext3? I can't remember... I've gotten into the habit and assumption that ext=fsck in really inconvenient times... but is that still a reality? I'm running ext4 on my own laptop, and will probably start to migrate my main machine over to ext4 (so I am on the default openSUSE filesystem again) with 11.3. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 23 February 2010 20:04:20 Dotan Cohen wrote:
Question is.... do I trust the Reiser partition to continue working now?
Is reiser still maintained?
All the enterprise distros maintain reiser, there are a number of enterprise maintenance contracts with years left to run that used reiser as the default filesystem. Will -- Will Stephenson, openSUSE Team SUSE LINUX Products GmbH - Nürnberg - AG Nürnberg - HRB 16746 - GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 25 February 2010 15:00, Will Stephenson <wstephenson@suse.de> wrote:
On Tuesday 23 February 2010 20:04:20 Dotan Cohen wrote:
Question is.... do I trust the Reiser partition to continue working now?
Is reiser still maintained?
All the enterprise distros maintain reiser, there are a number of enterprise maintenance contracts with years left to run that used reiser as the default filesystem.
Will
Thanks. I know the Reiser was the default a few years ago, and certainly within memory of existing support contracts. -- Dotan Cohen http://bido.com http://what-is-what.com Please CC me if you want to be sure that I read your message. I do not read all list mail. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 02/23/2010 04:32 AM, C wrote:
Hmmmm well, I've just encountered my first major fail with KDE4.4 on openSUSE 11.2 (on a computer I support).
This is on a laptop install. It was working fine last night, but on startup this morning, the system boots, and when it gets to launching the desktop, all I see is a small box in the upper left which says:
kstartupconfig4 does not exist or fails. The error code is 4. Check your installation.
I've just picked up the laptop from the owner, and am starting to try to diagnose this... strange... I've done some Googling on this.. only one exact hit from a German language forum. There they traced it back to a kernel update. I don't know if there was an interrupted of failed auto-update when the laptop was in use yesterday.
Any ideas on this one?
C.
C, No silver bullet on the kde4 issue, but this is exactly why I keep a current install of fluxbox, openbox, pekwm, sawfish, windowmaker, twm, fvwm2, xfce and gnome on the box :p Strangely, I find myself gravitating more toward fluxbox, xfce, gnome and kde3 than I do toward kde4. But, thankfully, 44 on 11.0 is running fine. Good luck! (really, check out fluxbox, openbox, and pekwm) Total install, less than 3 meg. (that's for all 3 desktops) X11:/windowmanagers repository :p -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. Rankin Law Firm, PLLC 510 Ochiltree Street Nacogdoches, Texas 75961 Telephone: (936) 715-9333 Facsimile: (936) 715-9339 www.rankinlawfirm.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
participants (12)
-
Adam Tauno Williams -
Anton Aylward -
C -
David C. Rankin -
Dotan Cohen -
Hans Witvliet -
Ken Schneider - openSUSE -
Larry Stotler -
Lubos Lunak -
Tejas Guruswamy -
Tony Alfrey -
Will Stephenson