On Wed, May 29, 2002 at 10:35:01PM +0200, Richard Bos wrote:

On woensdag 29 mei 2002 20:10, Keith Winston wrote:

...

Does it mean the installer will be the same on all distros? Will YaST2 go away or become the standard on other distros? Does Caldera keep their per seat license, while the others don't?

To what do you refer with installer, YaST2 the system configurator, or to an rpm package installer...?

I meant the initial system installer, the program that does the installation of linux on the computer.

For the package installer the following can be said: Conectiva (1 of 4 distro's) ported APT from .deb to .rpm. And as you may have noticed lately APT is available for SuSE and it works quite well.... So Conectiva would be crazy to give it up, and SuSE would be crazy to not adapt it! APT for SuSE can be found at: http://linux01.gwdg.de/apt4rpm

apt4rpm looks really interesting to me, but I didn't want to tinker with it unless/until it is officially supported by SuSE. Maybe we will find out tomorrow. Best Regards, Keith -- LPIC-2, MCSE, N+ Got spam? Get spastic http://spastic.sourceforge.net

begin Philipp Thomas's quote: | Keith Winston [29 May 2002 14:10:39 -0400]: | >I hope someone from SuSE will comment on this after the formal | >announcement is made. | | After the official announcement I'll happily answer questions, at | least as far as I'm allowed to :) also, for anyone who is interested, i plan to cover the announcement and try to provide as close to real-time coverage as possible on linuxandmain.com. i have no idea how well this will work -- it could be an utter disaster -- but there should be updates every 5 minutes or so once the announcement, which is scheduled for 11 a.m. eastern time, begins. if anyone would like to email me questions to ask during the conference, i'll ask them as a.) i can and b.) as is appropriate. -- dep http://www.linuxandmain.com -- outside the box, barely within the envelope, and no animated paperclip anywhere.

On Wed, May 29, 2002 at 08:20:58PM -0400, dep wrote:

also, for anyone who is interested, i plan to cover the announcement and try to provide as close to real-time coverage as possible on linuxandmain.com.

In case you haven't seen it yet, the United Linux web site it up: http://unitedlinux.com/ Best Regards, Keith -- LPIC-2, MCSE, N+ Got spam? Get spastic http://spastic.sourceforge.net

On Thursday 30 May 2002 15.36, Charles Griffin wrote:

each of the 4 companies will still release their own distributions with the tag line "powered by United Linux"; and

Hm. If the independent four distributions will continue to exist, one question immediately springs to mind: how is this different from the LSB? -- `When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'

On Thursday 30 May 2002 15.48, Silviu Marin-Caea wrote:

It's more "official" and practical, because big applications (database for instance) will be certified for United Linux, a certification that you couldn't have with LSB.

Why not? For a long time now people have been talking about a "reference implementation" of the LSB, that could be used for things like certifications. What I'm wondering now is: is this "UnitedLinux" anything more than that reference implementation? Will we as end users see any significant changes? -- `When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'

On woensdag 29 mei 2002 22:55, Richard Bos wrote:

On woensdag 29 mei 2002 18:48, Alleman, Lowell wrote:

...

I agree. This has a potential to be really big for the Linux community.

A good distro to add to the 4 would be one in the former Sovjets states, a good example would be http://www.altlinux.com. With this distro a wider geographical area would be covered.

I forgot to mention that altlinux uses APT to get their RPMs installed. Just like Conectiva does :)) -- Richard Bos Democracy cost a fortune

On Thursday 30 May 2002 15:25, Fergus Wilde wrote: - I know RH is very big in the States, and no-one would deny that the States - is - clearly the biggest and most important single IT market - but is RH as - - dominant as all that in Europe and further Eastward?  I had thought not, - but - ask in all innocence. As you say, you ask this in all innocence, but IMHO, the question really boils down to a wake up call for those like myself, that were at least partially drawn to Linux because we abhor the dominant US business model for software development, i.e. near total lack of support for languages other than English or only support for the so called "big" languages, i.e. French, German, Spanish, Chinese, Japanese, Korean. While I don't have a "French" take on this with language laws, official spellings, etc., I do agree that language, whether expressed through cinema, literature or software localization is CULTURE and should be preserved and regulated as such and not be something that should just be left up to market forces. Danish, Swedish, Norwegian, Estonian, Finnish, Latvian Lithuanian are all relatively small languages (a lot smaller than French) that from time to time get the shaft from market forces because this or that language (believe me, there are a lot of others as well) is just too small to bother with, due to the small population (i.e. economic base). This has happened many times with Apple since Steve Jobs returned and it has also happened with Windows. We can't afford to let this happen to Linux. Personally, I don't believe that RH is the most popular distro in Europe, due to a lack of proper support for tools/resources for other languages (there are a few exceptions, at least there were in RH 7.0). It is important for an increased support of Linux distros that support a proliferation of languages and language tools. All of us should be aware of this issue when we buy our distros. That is why I chose SuSE ;-) It would be nice if policy makers, in the EU among other places, received a wake up call and realized that not only is it bad budgetary policy to be using and supporting MS/Windows in the halls of Brussels and Strasbourg, but it is also bad IT (information technology) security policy and bad culture policy. My .02 Euros ;-) Brian

On Thursday 30 May 2002 18:53, T. J. McCarthy wrote: - I generally agree with your points, but Linux  offers whatever level of - localisation/cultural preferences people want. If there is enough demand - for a particular type of culturally neutral/biased Linux, or support for - a particular language, it can/will be provided. You can be as - American/Texan/European/Dutch/Asian/whatever as you wish to be- freedom - in short! In theory and in practice, at this point in time, yes you are largely correct. There is a big caveat, however. That is with regards to market forces. Using Europe as a metaphor for the Linux community, one could say that Linux is at the pre-EU stage. Linux is a relatively new "wanna be" in the OS market place (i.e. Mac, Win) so this is only understandable. The issue isn't so much whether the freedom to create a new distro exists, because it does, but rather if the distributors of these distros are visionary enough to create not just an economic/political union of Linux distros (yes, please note the political, because I do mean political), but to go far enough to create a Linux Airbus type of distro. Why? There are a number of reasons, some of them I have spelled out in my earlier posting. The main issue will continue to be "market forces". While I guess I could be called Euro centric, I am that in response to what I have seen in the Mac and Win OS worlds. It is vital that Europe (including the EU, the Baltic States and Russia, as well as Bulgaria, Croatia, Armenia, etc.) maintain the ability to have localized software that is "commercially viable" If it isn't, it will not continue to exist. In this area, I do not believe that the Linux business model will result in a very different outcome than with other OS's. You have to be able to make money in some fashion. This isn't onerous pandering to evil mammon, but a fact of life in the real world (unfortunately). So what is the problem? Well there are a number of problems. One problem is the difference of view on the opposite sides of the Atlantic. Many Americans view painting, literature, software and cinema as a marketable product plain and simple. Why? At least partially because the US has for the past 25 to 30 years, turned away from the common European heritage, partially as a result of changing demographics, but partially because anything and everything in the US is considered to be marketable or potentially marketable. If the theory doesn't fit the market interests, than a new one is created. But, let's face it, if Europe hadn't spent hundreds of years in developing the theory through often times bloody experience, the US would not exist today. Europeans on the other hand, have not turned their backs to their cultural roots and heritage, as is more or less official US policy. For them, language and culture is not just something marketable, but define their identity as to who they are. Is this marketable? Sometimes, yes. There is a lot of whining and complaining among many Europeans about American commercial and military dominance. Some of it is justified, some of it isn't. The fact of the matter is however, that deep down, Europeans consider it a right to express themselves in their own language, whether it be through literature, cinema, etc. and they consider it to be a right to have software in their own language. None is more aware of that than the populations of newly independent states or those that potentially have access to information technology for the first time and without state control. Lets take an example. Latvia has a population of about 1.5 million people. Half of which have Russian as their mother tongue. How viable is a Latvian distro of Linux? Not very. What about a Baltic distro? Well, population size comes close to being viable, but Estonian, Latvian and Lithuanian are very different languages. Estonian is closely related to Finnish, where as the closest related languages to Latvian and Lithuanian are Sanskrit. Latvian and Lithuanian share common words and word roots, but they don't more or less understand each other or pretend to understand each other ;-) like the Swedes, Norwegians and Danes do. There is also another Baltic language spoken by the Liv population in Latvia and Estonia. While it is also related to Finnish, it is not closely related like Estonian is. To add to the mix, there are very few people in Latvia that speak and write the Liv language anymore as there was a massive effort by the Latvian government in the 1930's to assimilate the Liv and turn them into Latvians. There are a relatively large number in Estonia, however. So, while a Baltic distro is doable, it still isn't necessarily viable seen from an economic point of view. This changes drastically however, if a Baltic Linux distro is created that includes Russian. Suddenly you have a totally different demographics. You have a potential market from the Baltic Sea to Sakhalin Island in the Pacific. From the Polar Circle to the Black Sea. A thousand pardons for this getting so long. I hope you get my point. Cheers, Brian

On Thursday 30 May 2002 23:10, T. J. McCarthy wrote: - Large corporations will never have a big enough profit potential in - producing language (or other specific) editions of software for small - niche markets: the groups and languages you cite are only going to be - (and hopefully will be) provided with an appropriately localised OS when - someone is prepared to put the resources necessary behind it. Agreed. The only reason to put the necessary resources behind it though, is if it is 1) economically feasible or 2) a priority of high importance as seen from the local social/political/economic perspective. The potential exists in small markets like the Latvian, for the US to define any legally required emphasis on a localized OS as a technical trade barrier and it is here where all champions of small languages have to watch out in the future! It could suddenly turn from being an issue of championing small languages, but also a very divisive political issue. - Linux offers -say the Latvians- the opportunity to do so themselves: - this can only be a good thing. This is a good thing if... (see 1) and 2)). - I note (and share) your concerns for European culture, but these values - and attitudes will only survive against more dominant and pervasive - pressures of outside influences if their values are recognized, - appreciated and defended. Long may they be so, and their diversity - remain to enrich us all. Agreed. There is one other aspect to this debate. The issue of foreign governments and representations relying on MS/Win or even just US software, if the source code is not available, that poses a very grave security risk and I am not just talking about MS's infamous blocking of security holes. Echelon has been much debated in the last year or two in Europe for good reason. Brian

I just got the press release: Caldera, Conectiva, SuSE, Turbolinux Partner To Create UnitedLinux, And Produce A Uniform Version Of Linux For Business Majority of enterprise system and software vendors including AMD, Borland Software Corporation, Computer Associates, Fujitsu Siemens, Fujitsu Japan, Hewlett-Packard, IBM, Intel, NEC, Progress Software, and SAP, support effort to create standard Linux platform LINDON, Utah, CURITIBA, Brazil, NUREMBERG, Germany, and BRISBANE, Calif. -May 30, 2002- Linux Industry leaders Caldera International, Inc. (Nasdaq: CALD), Conectiva S.A., SuSE Linux AG, and Turbolinux, Inc., today announced the organization of UnitedLinux, a new initiative that will streamline Linux development and certification around a global, uniform distribution of Linux designed for business. UnitedLinux addresses enterprise customers' need for a standard, business-focused Linux distribution that is certified to work across hardware and software platforms, accelerating the adoption of Linux in the enterprise. Under terms of the agreement, the four companies will collaborate on the development of one common core Linux operating environment, called UnitedLinux software. The four partners will each bundle value added products and services with the UnitedLinux operating system and the resulting offering will be marketed and sold by each of the four partners under their own brands. Nearly every vendor supplying a piece of the technology infrastructure used by businesses has expressed support for UnitedLinux, including systems and software vendors AMD, Borland Software Corporation, Computer Associates, Fujitsu Siemens, Fujitsu Japan, Hewlett-Packard, IBM, Intel, NEC, Progress Software, and SAP. Independent hardware and software vendors spend considerable effort certifying their products and services on individual Linux distributions to ensure product compatibility for their customers. UnitedLinux will significantly diminish the number of distributions that vendors are asked to certify and will provide a true standards-based Linux operating environment . Customers Benefit Through Unity According to research firm IDC, a 2001 survey of 800 North American and Western European companies found that 40% of the respondents were either using or testing Linux in their organizations. UnitedLinux will help further speed enterprise adoption of Linux by providing businesses with a greater choice in the number of applications and hardware certified to work on the uniform version of Linux. Customers will also benefit from the global sales, localization, education, support and services that all four UnitedLinux vendors will collectively provide. The collaboration of the four leading Linux companies will result in an enterprise Linux offering, which is truly global by virtue of the companies' ability to provide local language support, training and professional services, in addition to the support of strategic partners. UnitedLinux will provide one unified Linux code base for IBM's complete eServer product line, AMD's current 32-bit and forthcoming 64-bit AMD Athlon and AMD Opteron processor-based platforms, and Intel's x86 32-bit and Itanium processor family platforms. UnitedLinux supports LSB, Li18nux, and GB18030 standards, as well as enabling installations in English, German, French, Italian, Japanese, Korean, Portuguese, Spanish, Simplified Chinese and Traditional Chinese languages. In addition UnitedLinux unleashes a massive research and development organization for Linux in the enterprise. Effectively, the four companies involved in this process will shift dollars and resources once allocated to creating and maintaining custom Linux operating environments and divert them to new R&D on Linux enterprise software. UnitedLinux is dedicated to bolstering the enterprise readiness of the platform, but in the same collaborative spirit from which Linux was founded and continues to flourish. Participation and Availability While today's announcement outlines the founding members of UnitedLinux, the initiative is open for additional Linux companies to participate. The four partners currently plan to each offer their own server products based on UnitedLinux by the end of 2002. For additional information on UnitedLinux, contact Caldera, Conectiva, SuSE or Turbolinux or go to www.unitedlinux.com. About UnitedLinux UnitedLinux is a standards-based, worldwide Linux solution targeted at the business user and developed by Caldera, Conectiva, SuSE, and Turbolinux. Designed to be an enterprise-class, industry-standard Linux operating system, UnitedLinux provides a single stable, uniform platform for application development, certification, and deployment, and allows Linux vendors, Independent Software Vendors, Independent Hardware Vendors, and Original Equipment Makers to support a single high value Linux offering. For more information, go to www.unitedlinux.com # # # ADDENDUM AMD AMD looks forward to working with UnitedLinux. Innovating within open standards is a basic tenet at both AMD and UnitedLinux. The combination of an enterprise-ready standard Linux, and high-volume, industry standard 32-bit and 64-bit server platforms from AMD will provide shared customers with a high-performance platform for enterprise computing. -- Rich Heye, Vice President Platform and Infrastructure, AMD Borland As a leading provider of Linux development environments, Borland supports the efforts around UnitedLinux. This organization should help in making it easier for Borland to offer our technology running on Linux from more vendors and help to open up new opportunities and channels for Borland. -- Simon Thornhill, VP and General Manager of rapid application solutions at Borland Caldera Caldera sees the formation of UnitedLinux as a tremendous benefit to the industry, to our customers, to our 16,000-member reseller channel, and to our IHV and ISV partners. Linux and Open Source have already changed the way software is developed in the new online world. UnitedLinux now offers a viable business model and creates a unified environment that will attract many more global business solutions to Linux enabling far greater adoption and use. Caldera plans to make Linux not just an alternative OS, but the dominant choice for businesses worldwide who are wanting to take advantage of the benefits of online services. -- Ransom Love, Chairman and CEO, Caldera International Computer Associates As a company that has demonstrated unmatched commitment to Linux as an enterprise- computing platform, CA is extremely supportive of the UnitedLinux initiative. We believe that this broad-based cooperative effort will further accelerate the embrace of Linux by customers across all market segments and will enable them to realize the significant technical and business benefits that Linux offers in their distributed and mainframe implementations. -- John Pincomb, VP of Marketing at Computer Associates Conectiva UnitedLinux represents the addition of the best qualification of each of these companies. As they are in different places, they can add qualifications that each one has developed in order to answer to the challenges of the local markets, creating a product that increases the number of answers to the technical demand. It would be very difficult an individual company to get such a wide coverage in so many aspects. In addition, the organization model we are adopting, an alliance with cooperation and contribution of best practices, is in accordance with the cooperative spirit Linux has wrought. -- Jaques Rosenzvaig, CEO of Conectiva Free Standards Group UnitedLinux´s commitment to LSB certification is a natural. I look forward to the further growth of the Linux market acceptance of open source methodologies and wider certification of Linux products. -- Scott McNeil, Executive Director of the Free Standards Group Fujitsu Linux is one of the most important strategic platforms for Fujitsu, and we have been actively developing hardware and software products, services and solutions based on Linux. We welcome UnitedLinux and commend its efforts to create a common and stable Linux distribution environment for system vendors like Fujitsu and business customers as well. Fujitsu is pleased to lend its fullest support to UnitedLinux's activities. -- Masaharu Kitaoka, General Manager of Linux Division, Fujitsu Limited. Fujitsu Siemens Computers UnitedLinux transforms Linux into a business operating system par excellence. The level of performance, scalability and availability will be extraordinary. Combined with our PRIMERGY servers, UnitedLinux will provide a platform for business-critical computing solutions. -- Dr. Joseph Reger, Chief Technology Officer Fujitsu Siemens Computers HP As the #1 vendor of Linux solutions and the leading proponent of standards-based computing, HP believes UnitedLinux represents an important milestone that will accelerate the use of Linux by enterprises around the world. Businesses of all sizes that are deploying Linux now have the additional benefit of this unified platform. -- Martin Fink, general manager, HP Linux Systems Division IBM The formation of UnitedLinux offers multiple benefits to the industry, proving yet again that cooperation on standards simplifies application development and deployment for vendors thereby providing our mutual customers with new applications more quickly. Ultimately, UnitedLinux will accelerate Linux adoption in the industry. -- Steve Solazzo, General Manager, Linux, IBM. Linux International Open Source licensing leads to each vendor having the same functionality in the base system over time. This effort shows forethought in making that effort a planned, cooperative event. Rather than spend their money re-engineering the basic underlying functionalities of reliability, scalability and availability, these vendors will be able to build a common platform with which to innovate new features that their customers desire. I wish the old Unix vendors had learned that lesson. "For many years the analysts have been saying that the marketplace can not support so many distributions of Linux, hinting that only one or two might survive. Once again the Linux community has come back with a unique answer which may prove the analysts both right and wrong. This bold step should give a strong base distribution that will satisfy the needs of the software vendor for consistency and the hardware vendor for support, yet allow differentiation at the upper levels to meet the needs of diverse customers." Jon "maddog" Hall, Executive Director of Linux International. Open Forum Europe OpenForum Europe was formed to accelerate and broaden the use of Linux and Open Source Software in business, breaking down the perceived business blockers that our research has shown may slow down its adoption by business. The announcement of United Linux is very welcome, tackling potential duplication of effort and via the partner collaboration will boost confidence of CIOs in selecting Linux. UnitedLinux is a future-oriented step that has the full support of OpenForum Europe. -- Graham Taylor, Programme Director, OpenForum Europe NEC NEC believes that any activities of the UnitedLinux will be useful for all of us -- Linux users, developers and system integrators -- related to the enterprise systems. NEC welcomes such activities and will contribute development of future Linux market for enterprise. -- Chieko Takahashi, Senior Manager of Open Source Software Solution Center, NEC Solutions, NEC Progress Software We are encouraged by the announcement of a UnitedLinux Operating System and look forward to its first release. We see the collaboration between Caldera, SuSE, Turbolinux and Conectiva as being a most effective way of integrating several Linux distributions into one standard based Linux Operating System that is specifically targeted for business implementations. This is an essential step in the evolution of the Linux OS, which will provide notable economical and technological benefits to business customers and software companies like Progress. -- Maggie Alexander, Vice President of Product Planning at Progress Software SAP UnitedLinux will assist SAP in extending our Linux reach while maintaining the clear and simple structure of the distributions and databases supported by SAP solutions. Throughout the world, UnitedLinux will help to make SAP solutions on Linux an even more compelling offering with respect to service, support, reliability and performance to price ratio. -- SAP AG, Karl-Heinz Hess, Member of the Extended Executive Board SuSE Linux AG UnitedLinux provides our customers a business Linux that can truly be called the 'best of the best'. Global accounts will especially welcome the worldwide availability of one unified product combined with a set of services delivered either by a local Linux player or an international acting partner like IBM Global Services. -- Gerhard Burtscher, CEO SuSE Linux AG Turbolinux Asia Pacific is one of the fastest growing markets for Linux and UnitedLinux will only accelerate that rapid growth. Turbolinux has market leadership in Asia Pacific with major enterprise customers, hardware and software partners throughout the region, as well as aiding in China's massive undertaking to select a technology infrastructure for the entire country. UnitedLinux will benefit these customers, especially those in the largest enterprises that use Linux across their global infrastructures. With today's announcement, there are no credible arguments left against Linux in the enterprise. Linux will take its deserved place alongside every other enterprise operating environment. -- Ly-Huong Pham, CEO of Turbolinux

I am uncertain why the reaction to this announcement devolved into an argument about the EU and other silliness.

From the release it would appear that this is not EU-Linux but indeed an effort to start to eliminate those differing elements of Linux that may be standardized without undermining the freedom to have discrete distros. That is all to the good.

If, however, anyone tries to create an EU-centric version of Linux that attempts to impose (Bill Gates style) certain financially self-serving requirements upon other distros then they will harm the entire Linux community. 'nuff said ... doc ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Caldera, Conectiva, SuSE, Turbolinux Partner To Create UnitedLinux, And Produce A Uniform Version Of Linux For Business Majority of enterprise system and software vendors including AMD, Borland Software Corporation, Computer Associates, Fujitsu Siemens, Fujitsu Japan, Hewlett-Packard, IBM, Intel, NEC, Progress Software, and SAP, support effort to create standard Linux platform

On Fri, May 31, 2002 at 09:57:42PM +0700, Brian Durant wrote:

Depends on your point of view. Language and culture aren't really an issue for Americans. It is for Europeans. Many people feel that not having software localized to their own language is the equivalent of not having the right to freedom of expression. Most Americans don't understand this, but there it is none the less.

Why don't you get off the American bashing thing? If someone from SuSE won't step up and say it I will, this is a linux list, SuSE specific, and your posts in general have nothing to do with either. -- Dallam Wych dallam.wyche@virgin.net 8E0E 57E6 FF5C 0711 C0D7 Reg #213656 B6A9 C661 89E0 7D27 5829 counter.li.org

- I am uncertain why the reaction to this announcement devolved into an - argument about the EU and other silliness.

Depends on your point of view. Language and culture aren't really an issue for Americans. It is for Europeans. Many people feel that not having software localized to their own language is the equivalent of not having the right to freedom of expression. Most Americans don't understand this, but there it is none the less.

I am a Brasilian. I'm worked with Red Hat, Conectiva, but in the last 3 years I've been working with Suse ! The language and the culture here are completly apart ! The main reason is the REALY bad translations available from any software package you can imagine ! Here, traslation is traslation, don't mather the source, Cinema, television, literature or software all of them is made by the same peaple ! Traslaters ! You can see this "traslaters" doing a job to Warner's Babylon5, Garribaldi refering of your expirience in Io and Europe, considering Europe as yours old Continent, the traslater just don't know that exists a satelite in Jovian sistem called Europe, brother of Io !!! In the software is the same !! I ( and a lot of peaplein all Sounth America ) preffer NO traslation, then this kind of translation !!! But, if some day we can get good traslations and localizations ..... Fábio Rabelo

* Alex Daniloff (alex@daniloff.com) [020531 11:09]:

I'm an Uzbekistanian who lives in US.

Test -- -ckm

On Friday 31 May 2002 00:50, Eric wrote: - Overall I think this combo can be a good thing if some common distro - standards - come out of it.  Each distro seems to want to put things in - different - locations, with scripts "tweaked" such that you have to have a - pretty good - basic understanding of Linux to make sense out of any - directions.  I'm still - a newbie when it comes to Linux and it is very time - consuming and frustrating - to try to follow directions in which things - aren't where the instructions say - they are. Agreed. - I'm not sure what to think about your cultural aspect of this.  I do think - that Linux will offer the flexibility such that anyone who wishes to create - a - Unicode set for the Pashtutan language can do so and have it run fine. - - That's not so with proprietary OS's that must appeal to market forces.  It - - doesn't make sense for a company to spend 100,000 to gain 50,000. Agreed. - There is no "right" to any software in a specific language.  I think if - someone wants to have localized software that is commercially viable then - someone will need to spend the time to make it.  Then they can either GPL - it - or sell it. Even if you GPL the software, it seems to me that in today's world, it still needs to be economically viable as a distro. There is some way that you need to support continued development. One way is by trying to make sure that the distro catches the interest of sectors like the business community. The other way is to create an artificial demand by requiring by law that software sold in country X be the officially recognized languages of country X. While this may be done purely out of concern for the preservation of the local language, this legislation could be attacked by US companies or the US government as a technical trade barrier. - I don't think a language or culture is marketable per say.  Companies don't - set out to sell a language or a culture.  People are the market not the - good - being sold. Linguistic and cultural products are sold everyday, all around the world. Just ask someone that works in the advertising business. - What is it to be European?  I see many people who came from the Middle East - here in Europe who speak German and have lived in Germany for years. -  Aren't - they European?  What is their identity?  The same can be asked of - America. To be European is to accept a set of values that we call "European". Sometimes this set of values is most easily defined by "what we don't do that they do". This is normal in many cultures, but can have its negative sides to it as well. Ethnocentricity is a good word to bounce around in this kind of a discussion ;-) Some of the ways that this manifests itself is when natives of a country (for example Germans or Danes) differentiate between themselves and new immigrants by looking at areas where traditions are different i.e. do we promote female circumcision, marriage between first cousins, honor killings of wives and/or daughters because of a perceived loss of honor due to sexual escapades, etc? What is the identity of immigrants? They can partially define it themselves, depending on the extent of marginalization, but it is also most certainly defined by the host culture. Even with cultures that are relatively similar, cross cultural misunderstandings happen very easily. While today, no one in the US would consider stereotyping a Dane that moved to the US, they were considered to be violent and often involved with crime during the late 1800's where there was a large influx of Danes to the US. This actually isn't so strange as it may sound as most of the people that immigrated were victims of the war between Germany and Denmark, when Denmark lost of third of it's territory to Germany in 1864. They were exhibiting the same symptoms as victims of torture and armed conflict exhibit today. It just wasn't recognized as such back then. Today, many Americans are discriminated (along with other foreigners) in the Danish work place, in applications to study at Universities, etc. Why, because Americans are not considered to live up to the Danish standard of cultural and ethical norms. They are seen as difficult, arrogant, violent, etc. The media coverage of school shootings, postal workers gone berserk, etc. hasn't helped. On the other hand, how about the Danish construction company trying to promote itself in English with the slogan: "Erections all over the world." ;-) - I think as free countries' borders become more permeable, the exchange of - cultures, ideas, products etc will only increase.  People will accept and - adopt those ideas and practices they like and discard the ones they don't.   - In a free country nobody is forcing them to accept or to discard.  It's - just - human and cultural evolution.  Does anyone speak Latin anymore? Sounds like the official US party line ;-) This can be debated long and hard and often is. It depends on your point of reference. Will a system of universal protection of human rights eventually take place? How do we define those rights? Does an increase in trade lead to an improvement in human rights? Try asking those working in the Philippines, Indonesia, China, etc. in sweatshops without proper minimum standards and wages. Some of these countries are "free" some are "new democracies", while other still suffer under a one party dictatorship, but labor rights or lack there of are in a similar state. It seems to me more like people will accept or discard those ideas that are financially profitable. The American soul has unfortunately been sold in a Faustian bargain long ago. "No Logo" by Naomi Klein should be required reading before someone spouts off this kind of rhetoric. Not because I agree with everything she has to say... - Your example points to the need for standards.  If everyone in all of those - countries spoke Cantonese (or any one language) your problem goes away.   - Hopefully with this combo so will many problems with Linux. No,no, no. You are willfully misinterpreting me here. I am talking about using strategic demographics when building viable Linux distros as one way of making sure that small languages are also supported. Standards are one thing. Forced homogenizationation is another. Cheers, Brian

* Brian Durant (durant@cbn.net.id) [020530 19:41]:

Some of the ways that this manifests itself is when natives of a country (for example Germans or Danes) differentiate between themselves and new immigrants by looking at areas where traditions are different i.e. do we promote female circumcision, marriage between first cousins, honor killings of wives and/or daughters because of a perceived loss of honor due to sexual escapades, etc?

Sorry but I have jump in here. With the phrase "female circumcision" this thread is now perfectly orthogonal to what is supposed to be discussed here. Please, take it over to Slashdot. Thanks, -- -ckm, who has two first cousins who are married

On Thu, 30 May 2002 11:53:55 +0000, T. J. McCarthy wrote:

The very fact that the biggest player in a European originated OS is American is not in itself a bad thing: what will be bad, IMO, is if Redhat does not, eventually, move to LSB (and join SuSE et al). This would be a very bad thing for Linux as it may well lead to division: Redhat (read USA Linux), and the rest of the world.

Don't blame us for RedHat. Most in the Linux community here hold Red Hat in utter disdain, along with Caldera and TurboLinux. It's Debian which attracts the most support here, at least in the San Francisco Bay Area. A lot of people like the philosophy. A lot also like the package management system. Personally, I don't think Debian is nearly as well put together as SuSE; I fear this is a minority view. -- David Benfell, LCP benfell@parts-unknown.org --- Resume available at http://www.parts-unknown.org/resume.html